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Comments for the week ending October 19, 2009

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I've got to agree with Patrick on this one. (And as I said before, I'm more interested in how they'd adapt the story to the big screen than who plays who. I think that Bishansky made a good point on that issue yesterday.)
Todd Jensen

battle Beast- Cool, have a good time(and try to sneek a few Gargs home in your luggage) ^_^

This live action movie discussion is getting silly. It seems like some of us want to talk realistically about how such a film could be done, while others just want to play "let's pretend I'm a director with an unlimited budget." Fantasy football is a fine hobby but it's never going to send anyone to the Super Bowl.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering T-shirt Clearance Sale]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Keith David, well, at least he's kinda purple...

Naa, Bardem is my favorite. Sleeping over this, I'd definitely cast him. He has the looks (also take a look at VICKY CHRISTINA BARCELONA), an amazing voice and is a fantastic actor (BEFORE NIGHT FALLS). I'd definetely set my money on him.

Now I just have to figure out Brooklyn...

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

HEY ALL! I'll be visiting Kai and Yama from the 19th untill the 27th... Wish me luck!!! It's my first time in that part of the world... Woot! I am excited. Tokyo, Here I Come!
battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

Paul - Nearly every member of the Gargoyles regular voice cast, with the possible exception of Jeff Bennett, I think, has plenty of live action experience.

Rebel - Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I can't think of a single HUMAN BEING (actor or not) who truly has Goliath's face. Given that fact, I think Keith's facial structure is close enough, again within the ballpark of Ron P. playing Hellboy. Perlman, after all, didn't really have the same face that Mignola drew, but no one does, and Perlman brought the character to life, at least in my opinion.

And I'll agree that both Perlman and Bardem have great faces, but they look no more like Goliath to me than Keith David does.

L.T. Williams

L.T. Williams > The actor who plays Goliath doesn't have to look "like a gargoyle". The casting directors could simply find a talented actor who resembles the facial structure that Goliath has in "The Mirror". Do I know of any specific actors who look like that? No, and I don't feel like digging one up. But I know that Keith David doesn't look like that. I've seen him in at least one film, Crash. I don't necessarily think Eric Bana would be a better choice. A total unknown might be the best one for the role.

Algernon > As I said earlier, if a live-action Gargoyles movie were made, I wouldn't want a bunch of crap and CGI all over the actor's faces--except where necessary. So, in my vision, the actor who would play Goliath would have SOME prosthetics on his face (such as Goliath's brow tines) but his face would mostly be left alone, except for makeup to make him Goliath's color. Some other characters (such as Brooklyn) would need more facial prosthetics.

And Gollum is hardly a fair example. He's pretty much an entirely CGI character. True, they had Andy Serkis in a blue suit, moving about the set, acting out Gollum's parts and saying his lines. But they edited Andy Serkis out and replaced him with Gollum. If they were going to do something like this with the gargoyles, then it wouldn't matter who played them.

If you want a live action Gargoyles movie in which the gargoyles are heavily CGI or their faces (even the more humanoid ones, like Goliath and Demona) are covered in all kinds of prosthetics, that's fine. But that's not what I want, and I'm working within my own parameters here when I say who I don't want to play the characters. If you are disagreeing with me, but you are not using the same parameters as me, that doesn't do much good. That's like me being in one room and trying to talk to you about the painting on the wall, but you're in a totally different room looking at a vase in the corner.

In short, if the film were done your way, and the gargoyles (even their faces) were very heavily CGI and/or covered in prostheses, to the point that the actor underneath it all is unrecognizable (even for the more humanoid gargoyles), then I agree with you, just about anyone could play them, so it might as well be the original voice actors.

But since that's not how I want this film to be, I'm going to be basing my preferences on what I want, and that's a Gargoyles movie where the actors who play the gargoyles (at least with the more human-looking Gargoyles) don't have so much crap on their faces as to make them totally unrecognizable, which is why I would hope they would choose cast members who actually resemble the characters they are playing (again, at least with the more humanoid characters--obviously no actor looks like Brooklyn).


Brook > I see no more stronger of a resemblance than Keith David has to Goliath.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering T-shirt Clearance Sale]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

@ LT Williams: Ron Pearlman and Javier Bardem look a hell of a lot like Goliath like me. Look at NO COUNTRY FOR OLD MEN. That IS Goliath!! (minus color and his no-killing-contract).
I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

I'm pretty sure that there are also enough differences between voice-acting and live-acting that it might not be feasible anyway; the fact that they do voices well doesn't necessarily mean that they would do everything else that a live actor needs to do equally well.

Of course, I don't know (a) how much live acting experience the Gargoyles cast has, (b) how much more difficult it would be to "live-act" a gargoyle than a human being, or (c) how much more difficult it is to live-act a gargoyle than to voice-act one.

I'm not convinced that a live-action Gargoyles movie would be feasible anyway. CGI has already advanced to near-lifelike quality (and, in fact, has been that way for a while), and the physiology of gargoyles (specifically their hands and feet) strike me as easier to do in CGI than live. And voice acting for a CGI-animated film would be no different than voice acting for any other sort of animated film, so the original voice actors would be more in their element anyway.

Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

Andrea> The reason I went into a bidding war with you at the Gathering was so that I'd have extras -- to give to people like you. I'm pretty dang sure I have a second complete set of the pop-up cards available for you -- and whoever else wants them. Send me an e-mail? We'll discuss. :)

This is why I've stayed away from discussing who to cast. Frankly, I don't care who's in it, because the only person I want behind the wheel is Greg Weisman, and I know he'll make good decisions. Am I putting a lot of faith in the guy? Absolutely. None of us would be here if it weren't for him.

Guardian - [Guardian105 at gmail dot com]

I think the biggest "it'll never happen" for putting the original voice actors in gargoyle costumes is that most of them would probably have no interest in taking on something that physically demanding at this stage in their careers. Most of them, to borrow a line from my favorite movie, are "just too old for that sort of nonsense."

You're going to need young and spry stunt people anyway for the action sequences. So why not save the trouble of making two of every costume, have the stunt people play the parts, then dub in the voices?

Patrick - [<-- Gathering T-shirt Clearance Sale]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Rebel - What human being on the planet actually "looks" like Goliath? Please link to a photo -- any photo, doesn't even have to be an actor -- of a human man who you think looks like Goliath without any make-up or prosthetics or CGI. I get what you're saying in theory, but I can't say I get it any practical terms. I just don't think anybody looks enough like a gargoyle (beyond basic body type) to give a reason to NOT cast guys like David, Asner, etc. I mean does Eric Bana really look more like Goliath to you than Keith David does? Cuz I don't see it.

Jade - I once stood next to Keith David too. I'm 5'11" and he was at least a couple inches taller than me. I'm also not what anyone would call skinny, and he was broad of shoulder, relative to me and solid. Granted, he's not a body-builder type, but neither is Ron Perlman, and I thought he did a great job bringing Hellboy to life.

And again, I ask apologies. For some reason this is making me nuttier than most topics here. (Heck, most of the time I lurk without posting.) I don't mean to be unreasonable. I just don't get the objections to going with the original cast for the gargoyles themselves.

L.T. Williams

I thought she would target them because they're humans and they exposed her secret.
Gargoyleslady - [kendal dot renfro at yahoo dot com]

I find the question about Demona going after the Daily Tattler a bit embarrassing, because when I first proposed the idea, I hadn't thought of it as more than just a joke - I wasn't expecting her actions to be seriously analyzed for a story in earnest.
Todd Jensen

GARGOYLESLADY> I'm thinking that would probably depend on the method Demona used to dispose of the victims. If she hired a proffesional assasin to discreetly arrange a few "accidents", then I imagine the NYPD would start looking into any one who bore the Daily Tattler a grudge and could be connected to the crime. whether that would lead back to Dominique would depend on how well she covered her tracks.

On the other hand, if she just bursts into the Tattler's office one night and starts shooting up anything that moves. Then I imagine the NYPD would respond with a couple dozen swat teams.

Keep in mind though that since "Hunter's Moon", Demona has temporarily abondoned her human alter ego and is now in hiding.


How would the police handle the missing Daily Tattler staff? (victims of Demona due to their tabloid article that she turns into a gargoyle at night) I'm gathering information for my story Fallout.
Gargoyleslady - [kendal dot renfro at yahoo dot com]

Blaise> That was a neat part you played! My parents tivo the show and saved it for me to watch. Nice job!
Jade Griffin

Interrupting the current course of conversation to make a request: Since I only have the first printing of the Skybox cards, I don't have the Popup or the Spectra cards (as they weren't in existance yet). Does anyone have scans of these?

It doesn't seem like anyone's even considered that sometimes even in live action, the voice of a character in heavy make-up is NOT performed by the person wearing the costume. In the live action TMNT movies, the voices of three of the Turtles, Splinter, and Shredder were done by different people than the actors who wore the costumes. So even if a "Gargoyles" feature film were to shun CGI for costumes and prosthetic, there's no reason at all why you still couldn't have the cartoon voice cast.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering T-shirt Clearance Sale]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

REBEL> Considering that any actor cast as a live-action Goliath would inevitably be under a bucket load of prostethics and/or CGI, I don't think "look" need be the deal-maker. Afterall, how much does Andy Serkis really look like Gollum?




Greg Bishansky > I don't think any of us who are saying that we wouldn't want Keith David to play Goliath in a live-action version of Gargoyles would prefer a talentless "actor" who looks 100% like Goliath (in terms of facial structure) over a really talented actor who only looks 80% like Goliath, but who can portray the essence and spirit of Goliath in a way that the first guy never could.

The actor who plays Goliath doesn't have to look exactly like Goliath. But he should come somewhat close. To me, Keith David is not nearly close enough.


A lot of really rigid talk with casting. And, frankly, this is why fans should never cast. Most of the time, they look for people who LOOK the part, regardless of talent or acting ability.

I'm going to quote something Greg said about the casting of Wolverine back in 2000, because it is relevant.

But I've cast a fair amount of shows. Even in voice, when you don't have to worry about what the actor looks like, you still make compromises. So in live-action... Well, yes, if you search the globe I'm sure you can find some guy who looks EXACTLY like Wolverine. But what makes you think that guy can act? Jackman looked eighty plus percent of the part. And he could REALLY act.

Greg Bishansky

Garg Movie Auditions> I have stood by Keith David several times. I am not tall and he seems "big" to me, but I would not call him a big man at all. He has a tremendous presence and voice but... Let's just say he could be Goliath anyday, but he doesn't LOOK like him to me.
Jade Griffin - [jade_griffin at hotmail dot com]
"Food, food, FOOD!!" - Jade Griffin, on many occasions

Garg Movie Auditions> Salli Richardson-Whitman... I think that's her new married name? I hope I didn't butcher her name too badly. I've seen her in Eureka and I admit I always see Elisa. She'd be my TOP CHOICE as Elisa Maza, hands down. In fact, I might shun anyone else.
Jade Griffin - [jade_griffin at hotmail dot com]
"Food, food, FOOD!!" - Jade Griffin, on many occasions

L.T. Williams > Just because a person doesn't agree with you that Keith David should play Goliath in a live-action Gargoyles film, doesn't mean we haven't seen the guy. I know what Keith David looks like. He's a big guy, a great actor, and a great voice actor. But he does not enough look like Goliath for me.

In my mind, if a Gargoyles film were made with live action actors playing the Gargoyles, the amount of stuff stuck to their faces would be minimal. Yes, they'd be covered in makeup to match the color of the Gargoyles, and yes, they'd have extra parts where necessary--such as Brooklyn's beak or Goliath's brow horns. But, to the extent that it is possible, I'd want their faces to be more-or-less left alone. So, I don't want a Keith David with gobs of junk glued to his face to make him look like a facsimile of Goliath. I want a guy who actually looks like Goliath, so as to minimize the amount of stuff they have to glue to his face. His voice could perhaps be overdubbed by Keith David, however.


Patrick> True, but I seem to recall Greg W. saying at some point that the depictions of gargoyles with separate claws, like on the action figures, were not correct. I could be wrong; it's been quite a while. But my impression was that there was more to the gargoyles' lack of defined claws than just visual simplification for easier animation. (Though you're right that it's something that happens a lot and I wouldn't be surprised is it was a factor. Just not the only one.)
Demonskrye - [<---"The Swan Princess" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

Again, Keith David... BIG GUY. Much taller and broader of shoulder than, for example, Eric Bana, who is decidedly average-sized. Unless you were literally going for some kind of body-builder or pro wrestler to play Goliath, then I'm still at a loss why you wouldn't use Mr. David. It makes me wonder whether people here know what Keith looks like. He's still primarily a live-action actor with a very long and impressive resume. Check out imdb.
L.T. Williams

If you look at screencaps, you're typically not going to see fingernails on the human characters, either (the exception might be in extreme close-ups of the hands). There are details that are "cheated" in traditional animation because of the complexity of maintaining consistency across multiple drawings. So it's hard to infer that just because we don't see more lines that gargoyle fingers do not have a claw or fingernail.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering T-shirt Clearance Sale]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Ah! How could I forget Doug Jones? The man is an artist when it comes to playing humanoid creatures. I'd like for him to have fit in somewhere. :D

Possibly the wings of the gargoyles would have to be CGI, unless the construction of fake wings has improved very, very, much beyond the "Flash Gordon Hawkmen" look. Lexington-type wings are another matter entirely....

Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even dragonflies and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream."--Shirley Jackson

Hi all. I'm new here but a longtime Gargoyles fan. I was drawn back to this site by SLG's Gargoyles comics.

In any case, I am currently involved with a pop culture podcast called The Initiative Show and I wanted to spread the word that we have set up an interview with Greg Weisman for our next episode. Gargoyles, the comics, and The Spectacular Spider-Man will be discussed.

The show can be found at www.theinitiativeshow.com. When a release date for the episode is known, I will let everyone know. I hope you will check it out.

Eric Lindberg - [ericlindberg42 at comcast dot net]
- Eric

Lita> I would take the depictions in the animation or the comic over anything you see in fanart, concept art, or promotional art. My guess is that all of the bony protrusions on a gargoyle's body are covered with a layer of skin. It would probably harder underneath than a fleshier part, like a gargoyle's stomach, but still the same texture. There are a couple of exceptions. I think "Second" (Demona's second in command" has actual bone horns. Ophelia may too, since there is a line of separation between her horns and the rest of her face, though they are the same color as her skin.

The thing that doesn't make a whole lot of sense is how the gargoyles' talons work. I don't think there is any existing species that has claws, or pointed fingertips, that are covered in skin. Unless gargoyle skin is very, very hard (and we know from Awakening Part One that it isn't), I don't see how Goliath could do things like tear through a metal door without at least ripping the skin off his fingertips in the process.

But I'm willing to suspend my disbelief.

Demonskrye - [<---"The Swan Princess" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

I don't know why I didn't think to bring this up earlier... to solve the Goliath issue... DUH! We get a bulky actor to play the physical role, and then have Keith David do the voice. It's perfect! They did the same thing in the first Hellboy film - Doug Jones was the body while David Hyde Pierce was the voice, and you would never even know it. I think that anyone other than Keith would sound weird as Goliath, personally. The others could probably get away with being very similar, though.
Lita - [anrebello at gmail dot com]

@ Greg B: Eastwood would be perfect, but he'd never do it. But that would be an amazing film. Then again, I heard he's currently in pre with a horror film... So who knows...

The Cohens... hm... They are fantastic directors, but then half of the dialogue would be scrapped, the film would be full of absurdist humour and John Goodman would play Broadway.


Wait, that's PERFECT!! :D

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

Ah, I love this...

Also, I doubt that Brook was laughing about the point made about Elisa "because her ethnicity is a major part of her character". Most likely, he was laughing because saying that someone like Rosario Dawson isn't the right ethnicity to play Elisa is splitting hairs. If someone showed me a picture of Rosario Dawson (and I didn't know already know anything about her, or her background) and said, "This actress is of Native American and African American ancestry," I'd probably believe them."

I mean, c'mon, Spanish actors played americans, americans played mexicans, germans played russians, and all very convincing and very good. Al Pacino did a Cuban in SCARFACE, and it was one of his best performances. Marlon Brando and Robert DeNiro played Italians. Dawson does look the part, and I'm convinced she could pull it off. At least it would convince me more than Jessica Alba doing it.

Keith David is a good actor, but I don't know if I'd really like to see him in the role. I love his voice and all, but considering the Gargoyles will not be CGI, it's... I dunno... maybe I've seen too few films with him in a leading role, but... I dunno about him...

I think voice acting and acting are different things, and I don't think Sirtis is right. Rebecca Romjin Stamos was a joke, considering her Mystique make-up. :) I'm seriously at a loss when it comes to Demonas part... probably Jennifer Connelly, she'd fit the age and the looks, she'd only need red hair... and blue skin...

@ Greg B: Why do you think Daniel Day Lewis couldn't do Xanatos, or, rather, why do you think giving Daniel Day Lewis the role and go "OK, do what you do, make him your own." would not create a great villain? I think it could work (considering that he'd go for a more laid back/passive-agressive character).

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

I have an odd question that's been pulling at me for a while. The horns, claws and elbow/knee spikes. In the animation, they're the same color and presumably the same texture as the skin. But some fanarts and promo art show that they're more like actual bone protruding from the skin. Which is it, do you think? Personally, I think protruding bone just looks funny - maybe because I'm used to the animation not having it. But I'm no expert. That would be a curious thing to see how they adapt it to live screen...
Lita - [anrebello at gmail dot com]

Live Action Movie> I'm a little late to the party, but as far as blissfully imagining one goes, I strangely find that I like doing it.

I say "strangely", because I'm iffy about converting cartoons to live-action movies as a general idea, but as long as we're dreaming, we should dream that the Gargoyles property was treated with intelligence and respect, with input permitted from Greg and actual talent at its disposal.

I wouldn't be averse to any changes in the basic set-up as long as the valuable parts of the series were intact. I'm tempted to imagine makeup and prosthetics as well as CGI, 'cause the former two do feel more authentic on the screen...but there are also limits to them for flying (gliding) creatures.

That said, I've no clue who I'd want to direct or act in it. :P

Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]

Blaise> i am going to tape it right now!!! Whicked!
battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

****Blaise tries to dash into the Room, but gets stuck in the doorway due to his swelled head.**** Okay, I'll say it from here.

Off-topic post here: I just wanted to encourage folks to check out tonight's episode of "Ghost Whisperer" if they are able to. Why? Because I'm in it. At least, from the description, it sounds like the episode I filmed at the beginning of August. I play a morgue attendant and, while I don't have any lines, I did have a silent bit. So, yeah, on the chance that my scene was not cut, please check it out if you can.

Until next time! ****Blaise tries to pry himself loose from the doorway. After a few tries, his head suddenly pops loose and he goes flying out of the Room (complete with a loud "CRASH" upon impact).****

"Now...if you trust in yourself...and believe in your dreams...and follow your star...you'll still get beaten by people who spent THEIR time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy."--Miss Tick, "The Wee Free Men"

Jeff Bennett and Rob Paulsen are signing in LA tomorrow: http://losangeles.broadwayworld.com/article/MeetandGreet_with_Voice_Actors_from_Disneys_new_Tinkerbell_movie_1017_20091016
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Neither is Superman Returns. A movie which, imo, doesn't stand one its own nor works as a sequel. But looked rather delicious.

I'd vastly prefer an animated Gargoyles movie over live-action. I also don't particularly care who writes and directs is, as long as it's a great Gargoyles movie.


FidoPaws: "The Dark Knight" is not a remake.
Greg Bishansky

Honestly, although the chances of a movie being made are VERY slim (non-existent currently), seeing a live-action movie would be interesting.

-Lita: I think I would be concerned about the apperance of some of the characters. I like your idea of expanding/slightly altering the original designs, as obviously live-action/CG gargoyles will more than likely look very different from animated ones, but my concern would be the actors and what exactly the gargoyles would look like.
For example, "Superman Returns" and "The Dark Knight" were great remakes. The costumes were jazzed up a bit, but not to a point of complete alteration. More than likely, the gargoyles would go through the same process, possibly having more clothes or physical features (horns, elbow/knee spikes, colored eyes, etc.).

I do pray, however, that if a movie were ever made, that the human characters are chosen for their acting ability and likeness of the original character rather then mostly apperance. (For example, I don't think Jessica Alba made a very good Susan Storm).

But, all in all, I guess the only things to do is wait and see....we've all waited 10yrs or more already...

burn down the walls of time and space...

Lita> I don't have any problem with discussing the possibility of a movie and what we would like to see. I just think it's pointless to be saying "I don't think I'd go see the movie if it was x or it didn't have y" when there isn't any movie in development.
Demonskrye - [<---"The Swan Princess" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

I don't think it's silly to discuss the possibility of a movie, live action or CG. I'm pro-movie, anyway, as you might have guessed. I'm definitely thinking Del Toro for director, or at the very least use his talents for set and character design.

I don't necessarily need any incarnation of Gargoyles to be EXACTLY like the original canon. Sometimes I think that it would be nice to see it elaborated on. The show touched soooo many topics, and with it being an after-school Disney cartoon, it's obvious they couldn't dive into some more. I'd like to see a little more of a darker tone put on it. I think it would really add to the dynamic and intensity of all the characters.

Maybe I'm just super psyched about the concept because I'm working on a movie script and I have connections in the right places. No, it may never happen, but I don't see why it's not worth every shot. I love these characters and this story and this world so much I just want to share it with the world... show them what I see.

Lita - [anrebello at gmail dot com]

When Greg himself admits that his own proposal for the live-action movie (before they rejected it - and then decided to call off the movie) made that many changes from "Awakening" (such as not only having Goliath, Lexington, and Coldstone being the gargoyles who survive to the present day, but also Macbeth living in Castle Wyvern), I think it's safe to say that any hypothetical movie adaptation would have to be a new continuity.

And movie adaptations of the super-hero comics usually make similar changes. Even movie adaptations of books make changes.

(I remember, though, a discussion here some years back about the notion of Macbeth living in Castle Wyvern in Greg's proposal - with some posters questioning the wisdom of that, since Macbeth's presence in the movie - a famous Shakespearean character, remember - might upstage the gargoyles, even if he only appears in the 10th century scenes.)

Todd Jensen

How exactly are we defining a "canon" story? Because honestly, I sincerely doubt that if a movie of any kind does happen (and I'm not taking that as a given), it will be anything other than an origin story, and I doubt it's going to be a shot-for-shot remake of "Awakening." Most people are not familiars with the gargoyles' origins. You can do a new Batman movie or TV series without retelling Batman's origin or a new Spider-Man movie or TV series without retelling Spider-Man's origin if you feel so inclined because those stories are part of our shared pop culture. Just about everyone knows them. "Gargoyles" is not so widely known and explaining their backstory is even more crucial than explaining Batman's or Spidey's. The whole idea of costumed superheroes who fight crime is also pretty ingrained in our culture, so we don't always need o know why this particular hero does what he does. Why are their living gargoyles in New York? That's a question that needs answering.

And you can't just say "Well the DVDs are out there" or "It's on the internet." No movie studio is going to want to produce a film that can't stand on its own. They like existing properties, but only ones that already command a large audience who will go to see the movie because they already love the comic or the TV show or what have you.

So I think the closest to "canon" we would get would be a retelling of "Awakening" of some kind. And again, I kind of doubt it would be exactly like the TV show. A theatrical movie carries a whole different set of concerns than a TV show multiparter. And I don't think whoever is attached to this movie would want to be chained to doing it exactly like the TV show.

I think it's pointless right now to argue over whether or not we would see a potential movie, since there are no plans for one. But I agree that if it did happen, it would be our best shot at getting any kind of new canon "Gargoyles" material in any format, or at least getting the rest of season two on DVD. You may feel differently, but that's my opinion.

Demonskrye - [<---"The Swan Princess" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

To quote David Xanatos, if you want to be picky we won't get anywhere. Try to focus on the big picture.

From a business perspective, if there ever is a movie, you should want it to do well. Why? Because it will bring the property into the spotlight. It would get us that DVD set we're missing, and maybe more comics. Because, well, people would want to cash in on a potential hit.

Greg Bishansky

I have to be honest: if Greg isn't/weren't behind a movie, I very likely wouldn't see it. I think that's the only way we would get a non-canon story, and we all know what happens when Greg isn't behind the wheel.

However, if Greg manages to make a non-canon story for a movie (but I don't see the logic in him doing that), I would see it, only because Greg's behind it, and we all know what happens when Greg is behind the wheel.

Guardian - [Guardian105 at gmail dot com]

Lurker> Thats a good point. I certainly would see the movie. Hell, I might even enjoy a Gargoyles movie that is outside of canon. I'd just prefer that it was canon. Oh well.

Greg B> That was a cool response of Greg W's. Thanks for posting that. Very interesting.

Random> Last night I pulled out an old 'Donald Duck Adventures' comic book that I hadn't read in years and lo and behold inside the front cover was a kinda cool full page advertisment for the Gargoyles trading cards. Nice to remember the days when Gargoyles stuff was everywhere. It made me think about what a kick we'd get if we discovered a Gargoyles ad was being put in a recently published comic.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" -Sevarius, 'Louse'

Sorry for the double.

I forgot to mention that the comic book that continued the original continuity of the first comic book was written by the creators of the TMNT.

Lurker - [JohnR783 at hotmail dot com]

Final comment from me for a while but I felt I needed to share this.

Matt> First, thanks for the welcome back. Send me an email, I have something I would like to ask/offer you.

Now to business. About not wanting a reboot for a movie.

A few years ago the TMNT series started of with a kind of reboot of its own. Not the movie, the TV series, which lead to the movie, sequel to the previous movies but not to the show. Additionally, Im not sure how much of this is common knowledge but the reboot TV lead to the franchise being turned back into a comic book. The cool thing about that was the comic book continued the continuity of the original comic book.

What am I getting at? If there is a Gargoyles movie, all of us should watch it whether we agree with the premise/actors/etc or not because it MAY lead to a TV series or comic that would lead off of the main continuity.

Lurker - [JohnR783 at hotmail dot com]

That Q&A was fun. And since this is "Gargoyles" related, I think I'll post this bit here..

"Was the Incarnation of Norman Osborn in this show inspired by David Xanatos from Gargoyles? He seems very similar to him. He even has an Owen Burnett like assistant! Was this intentional of you?"

Well, I can see why people feel that way. He's not the first person to bring that up and I get it and god knows Xanatos is so in my head that there's some influence there. But the truth is that Osborn predates Xanatos. I was reading Norman Osborn in comics long before Xanatos was a glimmer in my eye, so to speak. Even the thing about having an assistant… Osborn had that assistant in the comics. I didn't come up with him and stick him in. Donald Menken played that exact role in the comics – one in fact might argue that Owen was slightly influenced by Menken, although I don't actually think that was true, because Menken was pretty obscure. But when I went back and re-read the Spider-Man comics, after I got this gig, Menken was there.

And as for how similar Osborn and Xanatos are, I think the similarities are somewhat surface. Yes, they're both incredibly wealthy, incredibly smart businessmen. But I think of Xanatos as being amoral and I think of Osborn as being immoral. And I think there's a big difference in that. Xanatos has said revenge is a sucker's game. I think Osborn kind of likes the revenge idea. Osborn is a really, really crappy father. And I think David is actually a really loving father. He's got lots of flaws, and I'm not saying some of those flaws won't impact how he raises his son, but David is going to do his damndest to raise that boy in an environment that's loving and warm and supportive, and it's obvious that's not Norman's point of view on things. Norman refuses to apologize or take responsibility for anything at all, and David's not like that either.

It makes it sound like I think David's great and Norman's awful, and that's not how I feel at all. I think they're both great characters, but I do think that in real, fundamental ways, they are very different personalities. What they have in common is they're both very, very smart.

Greg Bishansky

Gerald Butler as Xanatos: "You know what I say to that, Owen. Pay a man enough and tonight he'll dine in HELL."
Patrick - [<-- Gathering T-shirt Clearance Sale]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Branagh would certainly be a tempting choice, in light of all the work he's done on Shakespeare - and look at all the Shakespeare that got into "Gargoyles". But I don't consider myself the best judge for whether he'd be right for the hypothetical movie or not.
Todd Jensen

MATT - I'm not certain whether continuity reboots would work for "Gargoyles" (even if there would be the advantage of a smaller clan for newcomers to handle - just two or three gargoyles rather than five gargoyles, plus a beast, and that's just for Season One). If it's for a DC or Marvel super-hero, continuity reboots can work, I suppose (never having seen any super-hero movies at the cinema, I can't say more), since the better-known ones (such as Superman, Batman, and Spiderman) have already developed the public familiarity that can allow you to reboot their stories while preserving the core elements (the same as with King Arthur or Robin Hood), but the gargoyles are known exclusively from their series. (And also, a lot of the point in reviving the series is to find out "What happened next to Goliath and his clan after 'Hunter's Moon'" - a continuity reboot wouldn't answer that question. A brand-new series could still have a lot of the other things that made "Gargoyles" great, such as vivid characterization, but so could an entirely new series with no links to "Gargoyles" at all - like "The Spectacular Spider-Man", to name what's probably Greg's most popular post-Gargoyles work.)
Todd Jensen

Know who I'd actually think would be a good choice for directing the Gargoyles movie?

Kenneth Branagh.

I'm kinda talking out of my ear here, as I've only seen 'Much Ado about Nothing', and I'm hardly a scholar in the field, but it just seems like he might *get* it.

He's also not a Hollywood guy, so he probably wouldn't be inclined to just shove a bunch of names into the film.

"The boy believed you could be saved. But he didn't know what burns within your soul. When in your heart you know we are the same!"

cinnemassacre.com is reviewing one horror movie a day for the month of October.

Today they cover The Fly including it's various sequels and remakes. It also uses a TMNT episode to point out just how broad the influence of the movie is. That episode is "The Return of the Fly" by Michael Reaves, who also wrote for Gargoyles (and a million other TV shows).



Seems to me it doesn't matter if we are talking CGI or make-up and prosthetics or some combination of the two. If the actor is fundamentally hidden enough to look ANYTHING at all like the gargoyles of the TV show, then all that really matters actor-wise IS voice and basic body type and acting ability. The notion that Keith David is the wrong physical type for Goliath is ... I'm sorry, nonsense. Have you seen him? He's a huge guy with massive acting chops both vocally and facially. Cover his face with make-up on the level of Ron Perlman in Hellboy, and I see NO reason why you'd ever cast anyone else. And that INCLUDES marquis value. The marquis parts are the ones where the makeup doesn't obscure the character. No one cares -- marquis-wise -- who plays the Transformers themselves. And Perlman wasn't marquis to the general populace. Neither was Doug Jones, who played Abe. Selma Blair and Jeffrey Tambor were the biggest marquis names in Hellboy. (Not saying much, granted.) And, guess what, they played the humans.

Only the humans that surround the gargoyles require marquis value. So, yes, Elisa and Xanatos. Those are the two big marquis characters. I CAN see the logic of casting both bigger names in those roles and casting them to the ages the characters ORIGINALLY were, as opposed to Salli and Jonathan who are NOT old, but are now older than the characters, and who aren't big names. Still like Dawson well enough or Eva Mendes. (I'm not one of those who think the ethnicity has to be EXACT.) But Xanatos is tougher... When I brought up Richard Gere before, it had nothing to do with his romantic comedies. It had to do with his marquis value and the knowledge that he has played guys like this before. Did anyone see him years ago in Internal Affairs. He was frankly brilliant. I'm not saying he's my first choice. He was just the first choice that came to mind after rejecting Butler, whom I find bland as hell. (The latter of course just being my personal opinion.)

But I really see no reason not to cast guys like David, Asner, Adcox, Sirtis, Dorn, Bennett, Bako, etc. as the gargoyles... The only POSSIBLE exception is Fagerbakke, who isn't really Broadway's physical type. But with a little padding, even he could do it. These are ALL great actors, both on camera and off. Make-up, prosthetics and/or CGI will cover the rest.

I'm not sure why suddenly I'm so passionate about something so unlikely. But there you go.

L.T. Williams

Greg B.> No worries. I didn't realize that script-writing and directing are two very different jobs. I don't have the film studies degree. :)

However, I think it still stands, if Greg can direct, he should be allowed to direct a Gargoyles movie, in whatever form it takes -- or would have taken. I know it's a moot point, but it's fun to dream and speculate. :)

Otherwise, apologies, I can't remember who mentioned this, but they said that they enjoyed the recent CGI TMNT movie. I did too, actually, and wouldn't mind seeing a Gargoyles movie as CGI. Not so sure I'd go for a live-action film.

ADDENDUM: Has anyone here seen District 9? Those aliens practically looked real. We've come such a long way from Star Wars. I read in a magazine that a statue was made of Christopher Jones, and that that statue was the model for all the prawns. If something like that could be made for a live-action Gargoyles film, well, I would see that live-action film, then.

Algernon> Isn't it true that Guillermo saw a script for a Gargoyles movie and was interested? Or am I pulling dreams out of thin air now?

The awesome thing is, Guillermo visits my Barnes & Noble store semi-frequently. I could ask him myself. :-P

Desert Coyote> You crack me up. Only a true fan would point that little Star Trek tidbit out. :-P
Not so sure I'd go for Gillian Anderson as Demona, but then again, I can only think of her as an FBI agent solving strange cases. What she has done since, I have not seen.

Demonskrye> The only thing I can think of would be the original Transformers line. It was a toyline in Japan that Hasbro brought to the United States and 'improved' upon by adding good guys, bad guys, and a storyline. The original Japan lines had nothing of these; they were just vehicles that transformed into robots. This information should all be available for referencing via Teletran One, the Transformers Wiki. As for Cowboy Bebop, if there are toys, they're not available in the United States (or at least the California/LA County), or they're not the 'conventional' toy I think of when the term 'toy' is brought up (action figure, blister-packed, found in most retail stores; othwerwise might be available in high-end boutique stores as statues/maquettes or limited articulation action figures).

Guardian - [Guardian105 at gmail dot com]

Casting Couch:
Okay, I have some rebuttal choices to what has been presented. Bear with me, I'm going to go through them quick.

Goliath: Eric Bana has experience doing work on a CG character (read: Hulk), but his voice is just all wrong for the role. Goliath needs a commanding voice, and it has to be the same kind of dark and foreboding. May I suggest instead Omar Epps?

Elisa Maza: Legitimate as it is about the ethnicity question, there's more to this character than just who her parentage is. My choice for this role would be Zoe Saldana, who not only is a terrific actress but has a semi-connection to the role already (playing Uhura in the recent Star Trek reboot film, the role originated by Diane Maza's voice actress Nichelle Nichols, thereby keeping the Trek connection alive!).

Xanatos: Gerard Butler might work for this role. I don't see any reason why not, because he's definitely got the chops. Give him a double-role as Coyote, and you've got a winner.

Demona: Not too familiar with Christina Hendricks. Maybe she's got the right kind of snarl for the role, but then again maybe not. I might go for someone who's done a primal-type role like this before ... Gillian Anderson, perhaps?

Hudson: Again, not familiar with Brian Cox, but I imagine he'd work.

Trio: Agree with Seth Rogen as Broadway. TOTALLY agree with Seth Green as Lex (though if they do [SPOILER] make him gay as Greg has stipulated [/SPOILER], it'll be interesting to see how Green handles it). Not too familiar with the Brooklyn pick.

I think that'll do for now. :)

Desert Coyote - [<- Please buy my book!]
The Gargfic writer formerly known as Coyote the Bando

Patrick: aww c'mon, Ninja Rap is the best song ever! "GO NINJA GO NINJA GO!"

Greg W as director? If he feels he can do it I'm all for it, but I don't think he has to direct. He's already shown with Gargoyles and Spectacular Spider-Man that he can work with directors in getting his vision on the screen and there's no reason to think he couldn't do the same on a Gargoyles movie.

I think the musts for any Gargoyles movie are:
- it must be Greg's story
- Greg must either write or co-write the script
- Greg must be a supervising producer on the film

That gives us Greg's great storytelling abilities and gives Greg the opportunity to make sure it isn't botched up in post production.

Whether or not there's a "big name" wouldn't bother me, just as long as the "big name" fits the role and doesn't suck.

Salli Richardson as Elisa would be pretty awesome, but would she be too old for such a role?

I think you would want a combination of FX and live-action Gargoyles. Think along the lines of the Hellboy movies or Where the Wild Things Are. A live-action gargoyle suit that has wings and facial movements added (or tweaked) in post. That cuts down on the FX budget.

I think a great movie for inspiration on what a Gargoyles movie would be like is the first live-action TMNT movie. And that was nearly 20 years ago (holy crap!)! I think you take that kind of look and feel with current CG technology and Greg's writing and you've got a very solid movie.

Now to find an exec at Disney (or Marvel?) with the vision to see the movie and the power to start the ball rolling.


Personally my first choice would be Guillermo Del Toro, he's proven he can do these kinda dark fantasy movies without turning them into giant SFX wanks. Plus based on his work with Mike Mignola, I imagine he'd try and give Greg as big a creative role as possible.

My only concern is that people might view a Del Toro Gargoyles flick as a Hellboy knock off.


GUARDIAN> Sorry, I can't let this go. I know I should, but I can't. Film school graduate here.

<<I think, given the opportunity, Greg Weisman (because he would have to be the script-writer and director, period) would follow the same logic.>>

I agree that he should write it, and he should definitely be one of the producers. But, the director? Probably not. He's voice directed before, but, as far as I know, he's never directed a movie before, or anything live action. We have no idea if he knows how to do it or not.

Directing a movie is very, very different from producing and story editing an animated series. It's apples and steam engines, really.

Now, if Greg has a hidden talent here, and proves he could direct a live action film very well, then, sure. But, until then, I'd much rather see him work with a director who'd understand the property, respect it, and share a vision with him.

Now, as far as who I'd like to see direct the movie? That's a tough one. I know who I DON'T want to see direct it. I don't want any "blockbuster" directors on it. "Gargoyles" was all about the characters first, and the action second. That's one of the reasons why it was so different. And I'd like a director who would go for that. I just don't trust most blockbuster directors to do it.

I've noticed that a lot of great genre movies were made by people who have never previously worked in that genre.

Here are two examples.

Bryan Singer never made fantasy or sci-fi before making the first two X-Men movies. What did he make "The Usual Suspects" and "Apt Pupil"

Although, I think Singer took a nosedive as a director after X-Men 2. "Superman Returns" and "Valkyrie" were abysmal.

Christopher Nolan, no one would have ever figured him for Batman. His prior films were "Memento" (great movie, btw), "Following" and "Insomnia"

And I like them because, prior to their comic book movies, they weren't blockbuster directors. Because, blockbuster directors tend to mostly suck.

Would you want a blockbuster director anywhere near "Gargoyles"? I would not. I'd want a story director with a blockbuster budget. That's where the best genre films come from.

Actually, if I had my choice. I'd pick Joel and Ethan Coen to direct it. They are among the best in the business. They can do both artistic and commercial movies, and they always put the story first. Team them up with Greg in a producing role, and I think it'd be gold.

"No Country For Old Men"
"The Big Lebowski"
"O Brother, Where Art Thou?"
"Raising Arizona"
"The Man Who Wasn't There"

They have a lot of range. They are not one trick ponies. They are talented enough to win Academy Awards without being Academy favorites.

Yes, I think the Coen Brothers could do it.

Another choice of mine... a director who I think is good at getting to the heart and the soul of a project. This one would never do it, but if he said yes, and giving him the right budget, I'd love to see Clint Eastwood do it.

"Changeling" was terrific
"Grand Torino" was fun
"Million Dollar Baby" was good
"Mystic River" was a masterpiece

It could work.

Now, who DON'T I want to see...

Steven Spielberg
Michael Bay (Transformers)
Steven Sommers (Van Helsing, The Mummy, GI Joe)
Tim Story (Fantastic Four)
Brett Ratner (X-Men 3)
Uwe Boll
George Lucas (Star Wars)
Roland Emmerich (Independence Day)
M. Night Shyamalan
Paul W. S. Anderson (Alien v Predator, Mortal Kombat)
Mark Steven Johnson (Daredevil, Ghost Rider)

Keep them away.

Greg Bishansky

I could use a little help with an article I'm working on. Actually, I'm currently working on two articles, and you'll be happy to hear that one of them is about "Gargoyles." The thin is, there's a bit of non-"Gargoyles" history I need to validate and I think I first heard it here many years ago. Basically, the story was that a toy company in Japan approached an animation studio and asked them to make some kind of TV series. It could be anything they wanted, just so long as it somehow featured the toy company's line of model spaceships. The resulting anime was "Cowboy Bebop." I want to used this anecdote in an upcoming article, but searching the web has produced no evidence of this story or proof that it really happened. Does it ring a bell with any of you? Do you know of a reliable website where this story is mentioned?

Thanks in advance.

Demonskrye - [<---"The Swan Princess" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

IGN's new Greg interview for last week's episode is up: http://tv.ign.com/articles/103/1034739p1.html There's also a new podcast from the Crawl Space folks that's going to review every Spidey episode: http://www.spidermancrawlspace.com/wordpress/2009/10/14/spectaculars-web-podcast/
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

To be frank, I think someone disqualifying an actor from playing a certain character simply based on a SLIGHT deviation in their ethnicity is splitting hairs and, more importantly, against the spitit of Gargoyles. It that respect, what Greg B said IS humorous because it is ironic that such a staunch defender of the show would seemingly miss one of the most important aspects of the show for the sake of a somewhat minor plot point. Now, since then Greg B has elaborated on other reasons he wouldn't want Dawson cast as Elisa, and thats fine, but I can see how his statement was somewhat funny because it struck me as odd as well at first.

Just keep in mind that Elisa Maza is a fictional character, no one is exactly like her. Salli Richardson shares Elisa's voice and her ethnicity to a certain degree, but she isn't a cop, her sister doesn't attend university in Arizona and (presumably) her brother isn't a bat-winged mutate. So, according to the logic some of you are using, Salli isn't fit to play the part because she has not experienced the exact same life as Elisa. That's nonsense. I think Richardson OR Dawson could possibly play a great Elisa, though it is also possible that one or both would do an awful job playing Elisa. I don't know.

What I do know is that I'd rather not see a live action Gargoyles film AT ALL. I prefer animation and comics for the property, and I wouldn't want a restart in canon since continuity is such an important part of what the series is to me.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" -Sevarius, 'Louse'

Count me as another who'd prefer that the "Gargoyles" live-action movie not use big-name actors - though since Disney abandoned the project years ago, it's a moot point anyway.
Todd Jensen

The first live action "TMNT" movie did not cast "big name actors" to steal the show, either.

Let us not speak of the sequels and Vanilla Ice.

Patrick - [<-- Gathering T-shirt Clearance Sale]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Re: Big-name actors . . . Zack Snyder -- or whoever was responsible for casting Watchmen -- made a point of casting 'unknowns' so as not to eclipse the Watchmen story. I think, given the opportunity, Greg Weisman (because he would have to be the script-writer and director, period) would follow the same logic.

Of course, I saw Watchmen five times. I remember it doing well in the theaters. But I could be wrong.

But for something like Gargoyles, I fear that a 'big-name' actor would eclipse the entire story.

Guardian - [Guardian105 at gmail dot com]

I'm also going to be honest. Rosario Dawson is not a bad actress, but I don't think she'd be right for Elisa. I see her, and I don't see Elisa Maza in her. I'm not sure who I'd cast (well, I'd cast Salli), but I know I wouldn't cast Dawson.

And it's nothing against her. I think Daniel Day Lewis is the greatest actor alive, but I wouldn't cast him as Xanatos. I don't think he's right for the part.

Greg Bishansky

I think perhaps we might just have to agree to disagree. Personally, if a Gargoyles movie ever gets made, I'll be satisfied as long as the actress they choose resembles Elisa enough that I can believe that she's Black/Native American. If that particular actress isn't Black/Native American (or, is Black/Native American, plus some other stuff), I'm not going to worry too much as long as she looks like she could be Black/Native American. To me, Rosario Dawson looks like she could be.

battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

Rebel> I would think that everything about a character, from ethnicity to day job, would be important enough for inclusion as it all culminates into how a person acts and feels.
Harlan Phoenix

For the purposes of a hypothetical film, Elisa's ethnicity is NOT a major part of her character. If a film were to be made, chances are it wouldn't get to focus on anything that has to do with Elisa's ethnicity. We probably wouldn't get the "Cloud Fathers" or "Mark of the Panther" stories, and we probably wouldn't even meet her family. Most likely, the film wouldn't deal with anything beyond the events of Season 1.

Also, I doubt that Brook was laughing about the point made about Elisa "because her ethnicity is a major part of her character". Most likely, he was laughing because saying that someone like Rosario Dawson isn't the right ethnicity to play Elisa is splitting hairs. If someone showed me a picture of Rosario Dawson (and I didn't know already know anything about her, or her background) and said, "This actress is of Native American and African American ancestry," I'd probably believe them.

(I'm not, of course, arguing that Rosario Dawson is the person who should portray Elisa. I'm simply saying that the fact that she isn't SPECIFICALLY Black/Native American is not a good enough reason why she shouldn't be cast.)


Brook> So you're...going to...laugh at a point made about casting Elisa with an actress of her ethnicity because her ethnicity is a major part of her character...and then say the actress who portrayed Demona couldn't portray Demona?


Harlan Phoenix

A treatment that was basically the "Awakening" story was submitted for consideration as a movie script many years ago and it went nowhere.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering T-shirt Clearance Sale]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Well however it came out, my first exposure was a VHS with an attached game. The five-parter still worked alone. And it would still work as a basis for a movie script.
Lita - [anrebello at gmail dot com]

LITA> <<Also, I don't think that a Gargoyles movie needs to have a smaller clan at all. The original Awakening movie came out months before the series and worked perfectly as a stand alone story, and gave plenty of background to the characters.>>

There was no "original" Awakening movie. "Awakening" aired as a five-parter across the week of October 24th, in 1994. Then the following Friday, we started getting one episode a week.

A few months later, we got a video release of "Awakening"

Greg Bishansky
"Genetic engineering helps us correct God's horrible mistakes... like German people." - Mr. Garrison

I think that if a character's ethnicity is central to the character, then yes, you need someone to portray that, but I don't think that an actor's ethnicity needs to be EXACTLY that of the character. Rosario's physical appearance and her excellent acting talents would make her a great Elisa... but that's, of course, my personal opinion.

While no one can top the original voice actors, and no one can dispute that, I think that if Disney were to allow the creation of a movie (live action or CGI) they would need some bigger names to carry it into a larger popularity than us diehard fans can give it at this time. Why do you think Iron Man did so well? Even with a good story, it needs at least one big name.

Also, I don't think that a Gargoyles movie needs to have a smaller clan at all. The original Awakening movie came out months before the series and worked perfectly as a stand alone story, and gave plenty of background to the characters. And I personally would LOVE to see the movie done live-action with minimal CGI. Every movie has CGI now. I want to see REAL Gargoyles. I want special FX makeup and animatronics where possible.

Lita - [anrebello at gmail dot com]

Just had a few things I'd like to say.

First of all, on Lita's site, she specifically states this:

"So, I've been toying with this idea for quite some time, and after an afternoon browsing my favorite fanart topics on DeviantArt, I decided to take the plunge and design my all-time favorite cartoon into a spooky, live-action adventure – yes, I'm talking prosthetics and spray paint!"

This suggests to me that in Lita's hypothetical, the gargoyles would NOT be CGI, but would instead by played by live-action actors wearing makeup and prosthetics (although I suspect some of their body parts, such as tails and wings, would have to be added in with CGI). You might feel that having CGI gargoyles would be the best choice, but Lita's casting suggestions were made on the assumption that they'd be live actors.

I think we can all agree that if the gargoyle characters were fully CGI, then the obvious casting choices would be the voice actors who originally played them. I mean really, duh. But that's not what the original assumption was for this discussion.

Based on Lita's assumption that the gargoyles would be played by live action actors, I don't think I would want most of the voice actors/actresses playing the gargoyles. I'm sorry, but many of them have the wrong "look" for the characters they voiced. I wouldn't want to watch a Gargoyles movie in which the voices for the characters were spot-on, but the "look" of the characters was totally off. Take Keith David, for example. Of course he sounds just like Goliath; he VOICED Goliath! But he has the wrong look for Goliath. If I were watching a Gargoyles movie and Goliath was played by Keith David in makeup, it would be really jarring and distracting for me.

I would want the actors/actresses playing the gargoyles to capture the spirit of their animated counterparts in both voice AND in appearance. I wouldn't want a Demona/Goliath who looks exactly like Demona/Goliath, but sounds nothing like Demona/Goliath. I also wouldn't a Demona/Goliath who sounds exactly like Demona/Goliath, but looks nothing like Demona/Goliath.

What I would want, is an actor/actress who sounds relatively similar to Demona/Goliath, and also looks relatively similar to Demona/Goliath, and ultimately does an effective job of capturing the essence of that character. That's why I don't think the voice actors would be good choices--while they SOUND just like their characters, they often don't look enough like them for my taste.

Ethnicity > I don't see why Rosario Dawson's ethnicity has to exactly match Elisa Maza's. As long as she looks passably close to being Elisa's ethnicity (and she does), it's fine with me. Rosario Dawson has both African and Native American in her...she just has a little extra thrown in too. I don't think it's vitally important that an actor/actress' ethnicity be exactly the same as the character they're playing--if the character's ethnicity is particularly relevant to the story then the actor/actress needs to look vaguely similar to that ethnicity, but if not, then you could actually cast someone of a totally different race and it wouldn't matter. And let's be realistic here--if Gargoyles were made into a live-action movie, I doubt they'd be telling the stories from "Cloud Fathers" or "Mark of the Panther," so, for the purposes of the movie itself, Elisa wouldn't even have to be Black/Native American.

Examples of "color-blind casting":
-Kevin Spacey's character in "Pay it Forward" was black in the book
-Halle Berry will star in the upcoming film "Class Act," based on a white woman's life
-In The Spectacular Spider-Man, Greg Weisman changed Ned Leeds, a white boy, to Ned Lee, an Asian boy, and no one seemed to mind
-The character Neville in the book "I am Legend" was white, and yet Will Smith portrayed this character in the recent film.

So, if Elisa was played by an actress who wasn't EXACTLY Black/Native American, I don't think I'd mind.


todd- i'd be sad to see the clan reduced so...but it would make sense. there is soo much background needed for all the characters that fitting them all properly into a 2 hour movie would end up feeling rushed and doing none of the characters justice. I think i'd prefer goliath, lex and hudson instead though- give 3 generations of time warp instead of just two. the only reason i would like lex out of the trio would be because he adapted the quickest of them all.

I'd also like to add, for those who say Marina Sirtis can't act, watch Demona in the Gargoyles episode "Vows." Marina Sirtis basically has a conversation with herself, and manages to give both the elder Demona and the younger one a completely distinct personality. That takes some skill.
Harvester of Eyes
"I swear to the gods I'm going to beat the crap out of both of you as soon as I get better..." -Starbuck ("Battlestar Galactica")

I'll confess that, when it comes to movie adaptations, I'm more likely to ask how they'll adapt the story to the big screen than who's going to be playing who. (I don't go out to the movies often enough to keep track of the big names and mentally cast them, for one thing.)

I still remember Greg's own idea for the "Gargoyles" movie (which the higher-ups rejected), in which the awakened gargoyles were just Goliath, Lexington, and "Othello" - and "Othello" apparently had a fatal accident that would leave the door open to a sequel featuring Coldstone. I sometimes wonder how that would have gone down with the fans if it had been made.

Todd Jensen

Marina Sirtis isn't a good enough actress but Rebbecca Romjin is? =|


Rebecca Romjin would look better in skin-tight prosthetic (if they go that route), that's about all she has going for her over Marina Sirtis.

I think Adrian Pasdar would be pretty good for Xanatos actually. He's a pretty good actor, and he plays a pretty awesome bastard.

"This is not the time for rambling prophets. Our lands are beset by conflict, but it shall be we who decide how best to protect our people. Not you! Now begone."

Brook: What are the basing the fact that Keith David can't pull it when it comes to acting on? I suggest watching "Crash," which provides a great example of both him and Marina... gee, let me think, what's the word?... oh, right. ACTING.

You can also spot Keith David acting in "Reqiuem for a Dream" or "Pitch Black."

I'd have to agree with others that, at the very least, the gargoyles would be CGI. Actually, I kind of like the idea of them doing the whole movie like that. I loved the style of the TMNT movie that came out in 2007.

Harvester of Eyes
"I swear to the gods I'm going to beat the crap out of both of you as soon as I get better..." -Starbuck ("Battlestar Galactica")

I never post here, but I just had to step in...

Brook: I can't believe you admitted to laughing at Greg B., and for a perfectly valid criticism, no less. You obviously don't realize how important it is being faithful to a character's ethnicity when it comes to movies or any adaptation. You can't change someone's ethnicity without changing who they are, and you think that's funny?

I also can't believe you had the nerve to come here, to a room full of Gargoyles fans, and call Keith David and Marina Sirtis bad actors. Like it or not, they are Goliath and Demona and anyone else would pale in comparison.

I also canNOT believe you called Demona a clichéd villain. Here's an example to help you put things in perspective: Serpentor is a clichéd villain; NOT Demona.

D. Taina - [demona3 at hotmail dot com]
The story is told, though who can say if it be true... -Shari

If Rebecca Romaijn is going to be Demona, we might as well cast John Stamos as Xanatos. He meets the ethnicity requirement by being Greek, and there's already some good pre-existing dramatic tension between them. :P
Patrick - [<-- Gathering T-shirt Clearance Sale]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

BROOK> Considering that Elisa's ethnicity was a plot point, then yes, I think they should respect that and get an actress who fits the part.

As for Marina Sirtis, um, I think she is a good enough actress to play Demona. She kind of already has a good track record with the part. And, as she demonstrated this past Gathering, she is still perfect for that character.

And, I'm sorry, but Keith David is Goliath. And considering that the gargoyles would be mostly CGI anyway, I can't see anyone else providing that voice. He's too iconic as that character.

And he is an excellent actor.

And wait... you don't want Marina as Demona, but you want Rebecca Romaijn? Because, last I checked, she wasn't exactly a paragon of acting either.

And you don't want Demona to be Demona. Then why make a "Gargoyles" movie? The only similarities between Demona and Magneto are superficial... at best.

Greg Bishansky
"Genetic engineering helps us correct God's horrible mistakes... like German people." - Mr. Garrison

Agreed on Frakes. Love him but his days of playing the dashing action hero on the dread cusp of middle age have passed. Even if he could pull it off, he's too famous for people not to call it. And I really don't think he could pull it off anyway. (Click my name).

Salli Richardson probably has more of a shot since I'm not sure Elisa's youth is quite such an essential aspect of her character (and she looks great last I saw on 'Eureka') although I guess if we're entering any kind of reality Disney would probably balk at launching a film franchise with a fortysomething female lead. Especially since we'd be looking at 2013 at the earliest now, and presumably the plan would be for something that could sustain multiple movies.

Christina Hendricks would make much more sense as Fox than Demona. Jamie Ray Newman and Annie Wersching are other names that spring to mind. I don't see Helfer.

Xanatos is surely the hardest to cast. Xanatos is such a broad part: action hero, romantic lead, father, scheming villain, scheming villain playing the benevolent good guy, backstage schemer, showman. I think the main thing is the infectious good humour, the swagger. You can fudge a lot of the other points but he has to be above all other things fun. John Krasinski? David Tennant? Tahmoh Penikett? Don't know.

Another wild card (I'll probably get run out of town for this). Admittedly this is almost exclusively on the strength of his cameo appearance in 'Extras' sending himself up since I've only seen him 'Troy' and LOTR, once each; I'm far from convinced of his range as an actor. But: Orlando Bloom. His baggage is great for 'Gargoyles': he's got the kind of cachet where people would recognise him unquestioningly as the action hero/star/romantic lead but when he's revealed to be a a bad guy, people aren't going to go "a colossally smug, rich, handsome guy who seems to think the world revolves around him, and depressingly may be right because he has an infuriatingly charmed life; where the heck did he dredge that from?" Also mentally substituting Orlando for David in the scenes with Petros amuses me.

The reality is they'd probably spend months and months casting this and see hundreds of people and probably the people who'd click best are unknowns, at least to us.

Recasting the gargoyles would be preposterous though.


"Rosario Dawson is the wrong ethnicity to play Elisa. Sorry."

Sorry Greg B., but this is the first in a LONG LONG time, that I actually had to laugh at one of your posts. Hard.

"Yeah... given all the make-up and/or CGI that would be used on the gargoyles themselves, I'm not sure why you wouldn't just use Keith David as Goliath and Marina Sirtis as Demona, etc. What's the point of using Eric Bana? I mean seriously?"

Because Marina Sirtis is not too good an actress and Keith David would be... I dunno, he would have the voice, but I dunno if he could pull it when it comes to acting.

As for typecasting, well, it depends how the role is written. I personally would be weary of the Demona of AWAKENING, way too cliché/Magneto for the big screen for my taste... so yeah, she could fit it. Or probably somebody like... uh... whatsername... who played Mystique... or would THAT be typecasting...?? Oh dang...

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

I should probably contribute something... I think it's a fun list and nice to update every few years (decades?). I'd love to see Tricia Helfer as Fox. I'd add Neal McDonough as Matt Bluestone.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Richard Gere... ugh. And Julia Roberts as Fox?

Since when does the actor's ethnicity have to be a spot-on match? No, I haven't seen Frakes lately... but they can do wonders with make-up and toupees have come a long way since the Shatner Turbo 2000 model. And go look at her in "I Am Legend" and tell me that Salli does not look the part.

Seriously, people. Seriously.

Patrick - [<-- Gathering T-shirt Clearance Sale]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Greg Bishansky - She's closer than Salli Richardson.

Afro-Cuban/Irish/Puerto Rican/Native American vs. African/Irish

And for that matter, all the actors playing gargoyles are the wrong species.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Tilda Swinton as Demona sounds like type-casting to me.
Todd Jensen

Rosario Dawson is the wrong ethnicity to play Elisa. Sorry.
Greg Bishansky

Yeah... given all the make-up and/or CGI that would be used on the gargoyles themselves, I'm not sure why you wouldn't just use Keith David as Goliath and Marina Sirtis as Demona, etc. What's the point of using Eric Bana? I mean seriously?

I could see the logic of recasting human characters (Elisa, Xanatos) with bigger name stars, if it helps get the movie made or sold or whatever. And Rosario seems a good enough choice for Elisa, I guess. But not Butler. Ugh. Heck, I'd rather have Richard Gere or somebody.

But I'd be rooting for the voice actors to CONTINUE being the voice actors behind whatever CGI is used for the gargoyles themselves.

L.T. Williams

That last post was me.
Greg Bishansky

PATRICK> Have you seen Frakes lately?

I actually don't like any of the casting choices on that list. None of them feel right to me. And I think Seth Green as Lexington is way off.


Holy spitting images, Batman? Why on earth would we not cast Salli Richardson as Elisa Maza and Jonathan Frakes and Xanatos?
Patrick - [<-- Gathering T-shirt Clearance Sale]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

@ Rebel: Tilda Swinton would be one hell of a creepy Demona.

I'd say Jennifer Connelly with Red hair... but, uh...

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

Sorry for the double.

Christina Hendricks is pretty, but her voice is too high and light.


Lita > With the exception of your choices for Demona, I think all those choices are pretty good.

Not sure who I'd want to play Demona--maybe Lucy Lawless or Tilda Swinton. She needs to be someone who is attractive, but can also seem really dangerous.


Casting is interesting, but "too hip" for my taste... I think Butler as Xanatos is mis-cast... Butler is OK, but he's no Xanatos... Robert Downey Jr. or Viggo Mortensen or Mads Mikkelsen for me.
Eric Bana as Goliath is "interesting". Bana is an accomplished actor - yet somebody I dont like much... my first choice would remain Javier Bardem. Still, Bana is a really really cool choice...

OH, and the guy for Brooklyn... naaaah... I'd settle for Alan Cumming, but he's too old... Apart from that, pretty good list... Dawson as Maza is spot on!!

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

Lita> I generally have a tough time thinking of actors to fill roles that were originally animated characters. (And, not surprisingly, I would prefer an animated "Gargoyles" movie to a live-action one.) But you seem to have picked out some pretty good choices from today's Hollywood crowd. I'm guessing there would be so much costuming and CG involved in making the gargoyles work that the actors playing them will hardly be recognizable, but again, the choices you made seem good to me.
Demonskrye - [<---"The Swan Princess" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

Hey there, fellow Gargoyle-nuts. Just stopping by to grab an opinion or two. I casted a live-action Gargoyles flick as part of my segment for my podcast. Mind telling me what you think??


Lita - [anrebello at gmail dot com]

Thanks Todd (and Patrick).

Oh well, so now I have a question about New Olympians that won't get answered before the comics get picked up again and progress all the years till NO. My luck. At least the Quincy Adams/Hemings question may be answered pretty quickly if there is a pick up.

(Some interesting discussions going on here...too bad I have to actually get work done rather than allow myself to get sucked in....annoying work.)

Laura 'ad astra' Sack - [foolchaser at gmail]
Laura 'ad astra' Sack

Pardon the double post, but in fact:

Anonymous writes...

Hi Greg. I have a few questions about the world of 2158 that I was
wondering if you could answer.
1) How are things around the world politically? 1a) Are there still things
like arms races between countries (like we are seeing right now in Asia)?
1b) Are most countries working together in the UN (or something like the
UN)? 1c) Would you say for the most part, there is world peace ?

Greg responds...

1a,b,c. Nations still exist and there's still occasional conflict,
but the U.N. would have a substantial role, and generally there is world

Demonskrye - [<---"The Swan Princess" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

Didn't Greg once say that there would be world peace in the Gargoyles Universe by 2198? If that's the case, I think the United Nations could definitely have more clout than it does now, since nations would primarily be resolving their disputes through diplomatic means.

Personally, I don't believe that potentially playing into lunatic conspiracy theories keeps any kind of content from getting into "Gargoyles." We've already got a secret society that runs the entire world and main characters who strike some nutcases as "demonic." If Greg wants to go with the idea that the United Nations will have more clout in the future (and I'm not saying for certain that he does), I think he's going to go ahead and do it without worrying about whether a very small group of people will either see it as UN propaganda or try to bolster their arguments about how the UN is going to become a world government with "evidence" from a fantasy comic or TV show.

As for the afterlife, I agree that we probably won't see any ultimate definition of what it is, mainly because it would be harder for the series to treat death realistically if the characters knew what waited for them after death. But I think we will see various characters expressing their personal beliefs about what happens after death. You also seem to be assuming that if the series did take on the idea of an afterlife, it would be one single "right" version with everything else being "wrong". Personally, I don't see any reason why this couldn't be a case where all things are true. Again, I don't think potentially offending people is a huge stumbling point for including something in the series. There are already things in "Gargoyles" that I find mildly troubling, so I don't feel like the series has ever gone out of it's way to be completely inoffensive to everyone.

Demonskrye - [<---"The Swan Princess" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

Todd- and whatever celebrity de jour wants the most attention would want to claim them! Branjalina adoption #37?

CHRIS - I have visions of the U.S. and Scotland (or maybe the UK, though Scotland enjoys more autonomy these days) arguing over that, with the U.S. trying to get Scotland to take the gargoyles back and the Scottish Parliament protesting "We don't want them! You keep them!" (A bit like the war between the United States and Canada over Moosylvania in "Rocky and Bullwinkle", in which each country was trying to force the other to accept Moosylvania.)
Todd Jensen

"Maybe the United Nations has much more clout in 2198 than it does now."

The dreaded New World Order the conspiracy theorists fear. And the transformation of the U.N. into a one world government will be aided by the Illuminati, no doubt. After all, that's what the Latin words under their symbol on the dollar bill allude to. :P

Patrick - [<-- Gathering T-shirt Clearance Sale]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

TODD> Thing about the United Nations is that a lot of people have a rather skewed idea of it's actual purpose. There're are a number of folks who seem to think of it as somekind of world government, rather then just a diplomatic forum.

This feeds into a lot of crazed conspiracy theories about Black Helicopters, the rise of the Antichrist and so forth. And frankly I'd rather not see Gargoyles give any more encouragement to these lunatics.


Even if the gargoyles are listed as 'endangered' they would be considered an exotic invasive species to NYC. Siberian tigers are endangered, but if someone were to bring a small population to Yellowstone, they would probably be quickly rounded up and shipped back to Siberia - Manhattan is NOT our beloveds' natural habitat. as Hudson said 'Watch who yer callin' Yank, Lass..."
chris - [RashaTigress at gmail dot com]

Oh, and let's hope that if the gargoyles *were* declared an endangered species, a "Get out of Pittsburgh" scenario doesn't develop.:) (Probably not, since Goliath and his clan don't have any desire to drive out the humans, as Brain did.)
Todd Jensen

PATRICK - That would be good news for the gargoyles (though I still think that Goliath and his clan wouldn't want to take the endangered species route, since that would encourage most humans to continue thinking of them as animals). Though it would probably still provoke protests from New Yorkers about "Who's going to stop the gargoyles from making *us* an endangered species?"

Some years ago, I brought up how Xanatos had probably named Alex after Alexander the Great (Greg Weisman's since confirmed that speculation). But then Larry Davidson (who, alas, hasn't been here for many years) pointed out that "Alexander" is Greek for "protector of man", and Alex is growing up around gargoyles (and on especially good terms with Lexington). Who knows what he might pick up from them? He might fulfill his name in a different way than Xanatos had expected....

Don't forget that this is the United Nations in 2198; a lot could have changed in the almost two hundred years between now and then. That's about as much time as between us and Napoleon, and think how much global power centers shifted since then. Maybe the United Nations has much more clout in 2198 than it does now.

Todd Jensen

Todd > Actually, it's illegal to disturb or remove an endangered species from it's habitat, even if that habitat is an urban area.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering T-shirt Clearance Sale]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Chris> As of now, SLG's license to produce the "Gargoyles" comics (and all of the other Disney licenses they had) has expired. The comics sold very well for SLG, but not well enough to make up for the high licensing fee. If I remember right, Disney was planning to raise the licensing fees to better cover costs on their end, so Slave Labor pretty much had to decline the offer to renew.

SLG president Dan Vado has expressed interest in negotiating a new deal with Disney o publish "Gargoyles" as graphic novels rather than single issue comics. Whether he goes ahead with this plan will depend greatly on how well the trades sell.

Disney's recent purchase of Marvel has caused a lot of speculation about whether Disney would be willing to license any of its properties to another comics publisher. No one knows for certain, but Greg Weisman has said that SLG is still our best bet for seeing more "Gargoyles" comics, as they are currently the only publisher that has expressed an interest in the property.

Demonskrye - [<---"The Swan Princess" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

I'm sure this has been discussed plenty of times before, but are there any plans on continuing the comics? Even if it takes 9 months to get a single issue...
chris - [RashaTigress at gmail dot com]

ALGERNON> Actually, I think the manager of the local Wal-Mart may have even more influence than that. ;)

It is the International House of Fruitcakes, after all. ;)


Greg Bishansky

I had no trouble obtaining the trades from the SLG website.
Harlan Phoenix

Udpate on TPB availability:

Apparently within the past week or few days Clan Building Volume 1 has become unavailable once again. bn.com still has Volume 2 and Bad Guys as still available, though.

Guardian - [Guardian105 at gmail dot com]

Well we know by 2198 Alex will by Secretary General of the United Nation, giving him power and influence roughly on par with manager of your local Walmart.


I can only imagine some of the conversations Xanatos would have with Alex as he grows older, especially the "Because why? Why? Why?" stage. :-P
Guardian - [Guardian105 at gmail dot com]

My personal theory is that Thailog is the worst aspects of Xanatos multiplied many times over. Xanatos "programmed" Thailog with his world view, or at least, what he believed to be his world view at the time. Parts of his personality, like his ability to love and value his family, probably didn't make it in there because it took Alex being born for Xanatos to fully recognize these aspects of himself. This is not to say he's become a bastion of morality or that he's a completely changed person. I just don't think he saw these parts of himself as valuable when he was deciding how to educate Thailog. SO Thailog became someone with even fewer morals or scruples than Xanatos.
Demonskrye - [<---"The Swan Princess" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

Well, Xanatos doesn't view Alex and Thailog the same way. Thailog was a pawn, a stooge, a means to an end. Alex is his flesh-and-blood SON. Xanatos loves him dearly.

Charisma: Maybe I'm a hopeless optimist, but I'm rather inclined to believe that David Xanatos learned from his mistakes in raising Thailog, and would therefore try to make sure that his son did NOT turn out like Thailog.

Of course, Thailog never had a chance to play with Bronx and Lexington in his infancy, or study magic with Puck. Not that I know much about child psychology, but I think that probably had a positive influence on Alex.

Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

Some years ago (I can't remember whether it was here or on the TGS staff's e-mail list, back when I was a member), someone speculated over: what if the gargoyles had the option of being declared an endangered species and thereby protected under the Endangered Species Act? The poster commented on what a tricky situation it would be for them, since, while they'd be gaining legal protection by such an act, it would also make most of the human public all the more likely to think of them as animals rather than as intelligent beings, after that. (And it probably wouldn't stop people from trying to have them captured, in any case - under the theory that you can't have a group of large predator-like "animals" running about Manhattan; if a family of wolves or mountain lions got loose in the city, you'd obviously have to round them up and release them into the wild at a safe distance from Manhattan. Except nobody would know *where* to release the gargoyles to - although in light of how rare the species is, they'd probably want to keep them in captivity for a long time to study. I suspect that a lot of property owners would want the gargoyles caught as well, because of all the damage caused by Goliath and the rest climbing up the sides of buildings, leaving huge claw-marks in the walls.)
Todd Jensen

VickyUK - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]

(9)Ninth or maybe (10)tenth depending on how fast the next poster is.
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]

Eighth . . . *reads previous posts* . . . what the heck, Eighth!!
"The suspense is terrible . . . I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

I guess I'll take Sev7enth?

Something I was thinking about the other day: I don't know why, but I was thinking of how Xanatos & Thailog think alike, and then I started to wonder about Xanatos' son Alex. We don't know much about Alex, and what I was curious about was what Alex's personality will be like. Will he be like his father, always with the plans and doing whatever it takes to get what he wants, a big picture sort of guy, or will he turn from his father's ways and use his smarts (I assume since he's a Xanatos that he's got plenty of smarts to go around) for the greater good of others (and maybe sometimes himself)? Just wondering if anyone remembers anything that Greg might have mentioned in the past about what his personality might be like. Also just curious how people think he will turn out, since he's gonna be around until 2198 and all.

Charisma82 - [charisma82 at clearwire dot net]
"The alien mothership is in orbit here. If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate." -Zap Brannigan

I'm totally taking Lurker's number two spot.
Harlan Phoenix

Guardian - [Guardian105 at gmail dot com]



battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

"What if this wasn't a hypothetical question?"

Awww, dangit... I always post to ppl's comments too late.

Todd> I have the where's waldo style garg book and it does have all of that in it:)

and LOL to the person who posted the "Shagged by Rare Parrot" vid. LOL!

Jade Griffin - [jade_griffin at hotmail dot com]
"Food, food, FOOD!!" - Jade Griffin, on many occasions

Incivis> Funny you should mention Demona's wishes on mankind's destruction:) I wrote a very short story for the online Gathering one year called "Last Demona On Earth" where she discovered the focus of a djinni (yes, like a "genie's bottle") and made the one wish. She wished all of humanity to cease to exist. Well, that pretty much killed all life on the planet and she was left wondering if possibly MacBeth was still around, still hunting her, and hoping he was, and if by her remaining she in fact killed all of her kind, too, who intrinsically have "humanity", which is what makes us all thinking people. I just let the djinni's magic assume that humanity meant any reasonable group of people, and not just humans. Considering that Demona isn't really reasonable, it was an interesting trip to take her on:) I had fun with it.
Jade Griffin - [jade_griffin at hotmail dot com]
"Food, food, FOOD!!" - Jade Griffin, on many occasions

Curses, less than 15 seconds. Oh well, I relinquish my spot, someone else can claim second.
Lurker - [JohnR783 at hotmail dot com]

Since I am out of lurk I claim first!
Lurker - [JohnR783 at hotmail dot com]