Comment Room Archive : Gargoyles : Station Eight

Humans are also closely related to bonobos, which aren't nearly as warlike as chimpanzees.

I never liked arguments about human nature anyway, because there are exceptions to all of them. I think it's a contradiction for a human to act contrary to human nature, but every argument I've heard about human nature has exceptions that prove them wrong.

Even Goliath is wrong about it being "the nature of humankind to fear what they do not understand," I think. All you need to prove him wrong is one example of a human who doesn't fear what he doesn't understand.

And even more humans are unwarlike, if that's a word. (Spellcheck says it isn't, but whatever...) If it is human nature to make war, then that raises unfortunate implications about humans who don't make war.
Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:39:19 pm EST from 74.205.192.14

Robby> There's been a lot of speculation about this. The largest clan we have exact numbers for is the London Clan (196 gargoyles, 25 eggs), but they aren't exactly an average clan in terms of population. They've been restricting their breeding so as not to outgrown Knight's Spur. Since we don't know how long they've been doing this, it's hard to say how large the clan might be if they weren't. Plus, they don't have any beasts. Depending on their locations, other clans may be under similar pressure to keep their numbers low. The Loch Ness Clan, for example, probably can't risk having more gargoyles thanthe loch can support, though that could be a high enough number that they don't have to worry about population control. The Ishimura Clan is probably the canon clan with a population closest to "normal," though even they may have to worry about becoming too numerous for their hometown and we do not have any exact numbers for them.

Still, a couple of people have attempted to make an educated guess at the rough numbers. A few clans have definite numbers of members. The rest I think you would have to look at the London Clan and estimate either up or down, depending on how well you think that clan is doing, whether population control or a high death rate has lower their numbers, whether or not they have gargoyles beasts and how many, how many eggs they might have, and so on. We know that Lex sees the London Clan's 25 eggs as a pretty small generation and GargWiki states that the Mayan CLan's rookery contains between 20 and 40 eggs, but we don't know if either of these represent an average rookery. Lex was used to the Wyvern Clan, which was relatively large for its time but also had a high death rate. The range given for the Mayan Clan's eggs could be normal, but it could also reflect their periodic battles to protect their home from humans.

Andrea> Keep in mind that most "official" variations on Monopoly leave the corner squares as-is, in kind of a nod to tradition. That said, since you're making yours almost from scratch, you can feel free to ignore this rule or stick to it. Keep us posted!
Demonskrye - [<---Animation Techniques at The Ink and Pixel Club]
posted @ Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:53:03 pm EST from 146.115.115.75

News on the Monopoly Front:

Turns out the editing software for the gameboard is utter crap and doesn't allow for much customization room, and a few of the spaces you can't even print out overlays for. So because of that, I said screw it, figured I could get a real monoply board cheap somewhere during xmas shopping, and I can measure and just photoshop the CRAP out of everything, take measurements, and just use the printing paper (plus I can use the real thing as a reference, since we do not own it at home).

So Target has this new vintage collection of game boards that the box is designed as like and old-school book. Even though it's more expensive than the normal edition now, it has the original spaces (and not the minor changes made in the past few years), and with some work, I can make the board itself double as a replica of the Grimorum of sorts.

So yeah, sometimes a minor setback can work out into something even better.
Andrea - [SailorV77 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:50:52 pm EST from 24.41.18.162

Given how many Gargoyle clans are, what do you think the total population of Gargoyles are in 1997?
Robby Barrows - [rbgecko at yahoo dot com]
SuperSaiyaMan12
posted @ Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:53:41 pm EST from 71.83.49.166

The argument that humans are "naturally warlike" comes from observations of other primates. Chimpanzees, our closest genetic relative among the other primates, live in groups, and a chimpanzee group will sometimes engage in violent - and sometimes fatal - battle with another chimpanzee group over territory and resources. In the end, humans lobbing bombs and bullets at each other over who gets the oil isn't very far separated from chimps tossing poo and rocks at each other over who gets the water hole.
Patrick - [<-- T-shirt Clearance Sale]
"You are right, I have always known about man. From the evidence, I believe his wisdom must walk hand and hand with his idiocy. His emotions must rule his brain. He must be a warlike creature who gives battle to everything around him, even himself." - Dr. Zauis, "Planet of the Apes" (1968)
posted @ Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:11:18 am EST from 173.88.135.205

I think that "Shadows of the Past" could be, in part, Goliath facing post-traumatic stress over the Wyvern Massacre.

Keep in mind that I was describing T. H. White's own thoughts on war in "The Once and Future King" and "The Book of Merlyn", rather than engaging in speculation on it myself.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:48:15 am EST from 4.244.214.211

Who says humans are a naturally war-happy species? From the evidence we have, war (as we define it now) didn't first take place until hunter-gatherers started practicing agriculture. This led to larger population centers (towns, cities, empires) instead of bands of small groups which led to hierarchies, politics and eventually inter-group fighting; war.
So, if humans have been around for, let's say 100,000 years, and we've only been a agricultural species for say 5,000 years, you can understand why we are still working out the kinks of living in large societies and getting along with neighboring groups. The fact is, the way we live now ISN'T natural to us at all, but we are trying to adapt to it.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" -Sevarius, 'Louse'
posted @ Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:33:46 am EST from 70.230.145.180

MICHAEL> "If humans were naturally warlike, how would you explain post-traumatic stress disorder resulting from war?"

Because the folks who start wars are rarely ever the same folks who actually end up on the front lines.
Algernon
Never make fun of 80s cartoons. 80s cartoons are no laughing matter. 80s cartoons are more serious then AIDS.
posted @ Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:11:03 am EST from 86.40.6.155

If humans were naturally warlike, how would you explain post-traumatic stress disorder resulting from war? Does that not conflict with a willingness to go to war?

I wonder if Goliath or Hudson suffers from PTSD.
Michael Ejercito - [mejercit at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, Nov 27, 2009 9:34:12 pm EST from 96.229.102.62

DEMONSKRYE - I guessed as much (about your typing the wrong title).

Greg's take on Arthur differs from White's in places (the Arthur of "Gargoyles" seems much more of a warrior than White's Arthur, but much of that is probably due to the genre difference; "Gargoyles" is more of an adventure story than "The Once and Future King"), but I know of at least one case where Greg specifically had White's work in mind. I once asked Greg how Arthur must have felt about being remembered so long after his original reign, when it must have looked at the time of his last battle as if all of his acts had been for nothing. Greg replied with a mention of the scene in "The Book of Merlyn" where the hedgehog takes Arthur out to look over a sleeping Britain and he feels his heart expand with love towards it and its people; he went on to say that he suspected that something similar to the hedgehog incident happened to Arthur in the Gargoyles Universe that convinced him that his efforts hadn't been fruitless.

After last night's post, I thought about White's suggestion that part of the reason for wars - even deeper than imaginary boundary lines - is the adrenalin rush, and that reminded me of the Pack's motives in their first appearance; they wanted a real battle, rather than just the staged ones against actors playing Evil Ninjas on television or live performances, and saw the gargoyles as the perfect way of getting one. While their motives have changed a bit since then, that might make them appropriate opponents for Arthur at some point - a parallel with White's notion of the majority of Arthur's knights, in the latter part of the reign (it appears in the musical "Camelot" as well, through the song "Fie on Goodness!"), wanting real fighting rather than just tournaments.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Nov 27, 2009 7:23:12 am EST from 4.244.210.218

Todd> Argh, I just realized I typed The Sword in the Stone when I meant The Once and Future King. My bad. I know Greg is fond of the T.H. White books, so I wouldn't be surprised to see something from them make its way into the Gargoyles Universe. Maybe it won't be so direct, but I do get the feeling that something about Arthur's first journey from Avalon left him severely disillusioned about the modern world. And yet the place that left him feeling that way was also somehow "where he needed to be." I imagine part of what gets him back in the skiff is a conversation with Goliath. I doubt there's much of anyone in the world who better understands what Arthur may be going through.
Demonskrye - [<---Animation Techniques at The Ink and Pixel Club]
posted @ Thu, Nov 26, 2009 8:55:10 pm EST from 146.115.115.75

DEMONSKRYE - That is a fascinating thought about Arthur's disillusionment, especially your mention of his thoughts in T. H. White's work that if humans could see the world from above, without boundaries, it might end most of their warfare. What it might suggest to Arthur is that boundaries are just the excuse for war, and that humans would simply look for another excuse (in "The Book of Merlyn", Merlyn suggests that maybe the real cause of the problem is a desire for an adrenalin rush; "The Once and Future King" itself suggests that the real reason for the fall of Camelot wasn't Lancelot and Guinevere's affair or Mordred's schemings, though both played their part, but that most of the knights were only interested in fighting; as long as Arthur could send them off against dragons or giants or robber-barons, he could keep them out of mischief, but once they'd dealt with all of these, there was nobody left for them to fight - except each other.)

Maybe if Greg gets to do a "Pendragon" spin-off comic (like the "Bad Guys" spin-off comic), we'll get to find out something about that adventure and how it disillusioned Arthur for a time.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Nov 26, 2009 6:47:53 pm EST from 4.244.214.76

Happy Thanksgiving to all, and to all a good nap.
Lurker
posted @ Thu, Nov 26, 2009 12:40:33 pm EST from 99.64.66.168

Demonskrye - Thanks!!! :)
battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Thu, Nov 26, 2009 12:08:06 pm EST from 209.89.155.235

Happy Thanksgiving to our US regulars! And happy belated birthday to Battle Beast!

Birthdays> I got curious about what happened in the Gargoyles Universe on my birthday and checked out the timeline on GargWiki. Seems the only thing of note that took place on September 24 of any year was some of the events of "Lighthouse in the Sea of Time," including Hudson first meeting Jeffrey Robbins, which i guess is pretty good. Checking that led to me checking...

"Withhelds"> There are still a couple of events in the timeline marked "withheld" from when Greg was doing "This Day in Gargoyles Universe History." So I was wondering if we could make educated guesses about what any of them might be:

1991 - February 28 and March 1: My best guess would be that this is an event or events leading up to Castle Wyvern being moved to Manhattan. Maybe some kind of finalization of the alliance between Xanatos and Demona, or something else. It could be completely unrelated as well, but that's what makes sense to me.

1996 - February 12: We know what happened on this particular day, but not what led to it. King Arthur returns to Avalon after some kind of adventure in the "real" world unsure whether he will ever venture forth again. What we don't know is what happened that left him feeling hat way. I'm thinking it would have to be more than mere culture shock to leave him feeling like he may want to be done with the rest of the world. Perhaps something happened to make him feel like humanity has not improved itself any since his "death." I remember how The Sword in the Stone ends with Arthur conclusing that if people could see the world from an aerial perspective like he did when Merlin turned him into a goose in his boyhood, they would realize the fallacy of the idea of fighting over boundaries that don't really exist. Maybe seeing a world where people can take flight on a daily basis and still fight over imaginary lines in the sand hit him hard.

1996 - November, Stone of Destiny storyline: There are still a lot of "withelds" in here. Have they just not been updated, or was there something happening around the same time that we don't know about yet?

2007 - March 28: Way too far out for me to even hazard a guess. The two closest known events are Obsidiana coming to the United States in June of the previous year and Lex continuing "his journey" in 2007. Maybe the witheld event relates to one of these, but maybe it's completely separate.

Thoughts?
Demonskrye - [<---Animation Techniques at The Ink and Pixel Club]
posted @ Thu, Nov 26, 2009 11:35:27 am EST from 146.115.115.75

Happy Thanksgiving! If I'm at my father's house next year, I'll have to bring my Myster Science Theater DVDs with me. I miss the Turkey Day marathon.

In other news, I just submitted a question to ASK GREG. I'm saying so here because I forgot to put my name on it, but a few people should be able to tell it was mine. ( ;
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Kids come running for the great taste of Sampo!" -Tom Servo
posted @ Thu, Nov 26, 2009 11:20:50 am EST from 76.27.173.29

****Blaise's transparent form wavers into view.**** Still having graphics card issues.

I just wanted to say "Happy Thanksgiving" to all my fellow Americans!
As for what I'll be doing today...well, I intend to spend it among friends (no family in the near area, and I'm saving up for Christmas).

Until next time! ****With a long-suffering sigh, Blaise returns to working on his comp and fades from view.****
Blaise
"Now...if you trust in yourself...and believe in your dreams...and follow your star...you'll still get beaten by people who spent THEIR time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy."--Miss Tick, "The Wee Free Men"
posted @ Thu, Nov 26, 2009 11:16:16 am EST from 76.208.138.246

Happy Thanksgiving everyone
I uploaded a video on how I made the Phoenix Gate that I had on auction at the gathering if you're interested check it out thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UerCJrQYDj0
Aaron AKA Halloweenking - [halloweenking28 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Thu, Nov 26, 2009 10:32:19 am EST from 24.74.46.36

Happy Thanksgiving to all my American brethren!

Happy Thursday to the rest of ya.

Have a good one!
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" -Sevarius, 'Louse'
posted @ Thu, Nov 26, 2009 7:58:06 am EST from 70.230.153.140

So Duncan succeeded Malcom on my birthday? Cool.

Matt Bluestone> With all of his theories, I'd think he'd be a more liberal Democrat.
battle Beast - [Canada]
Another year older... Wiser? We'll see!
posted @ Thu, Nov 26, 2009 1:30:58 am EST from 209.89.155.235

Well, Happy Thanksgiving.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Thu, Nov 26, 2009 12:06:51 am EST from 99.177.172.217

It occurs to me that "The Last" would probably have to be heavily modified before being published in comic form. If SLG manages to get back the Gargoyles licence it's unlikely to cover characters or concepts from the Team Atlantis universe as that's a completely different franchise.
Algernon
Never make fun of 80s cartoons. 80s cartoons are no laughing matter. 80s cartoons are more serious then AIDS.
posted @ Wed, Nov 25, 2009 7:40:08 pm EST from 86.41.100.69

DEMONSKRYE - I've sometimes wondered whether, in the Gargoyles Universe, Duncan might have hastened his grandfather's death. From what we saw of him in "City of Stone", he'd be unscrupulous to do so. (There are hints in "Gargoyles" that Maol Chalvim/Malcolm II was himself unscrupulous, ready to betray his own cousin Kenneth in order to become king - maybe he unwittingly set too much of an example for Duncan, a la Xanatos with Thailog if in a more fatal way.)

I've wondered how much the "Atlantis" movie will tie in with "Gargoyles" (I remember Greg's remarks that many of the elements in the planned but never made "Team Atlantis" series don't quite fit their counterparts in "Gargoyles"). But I suspect that Greg Weisman's already worked it out.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Nov 25, 2009 7:12:47 pm EST from 4.244.211.165

Todd> Well, if "The Last" is going to be canon someday, that means there are surviving Atlanteans, or Kida wouldn't exist. But judging from what I know about that particular story, everything Kida says about the gorlois seem to suggest that there is no longer an Atlantean clan.

History> Wikipedia says that on this day in the year 1034, Malcolm II, king of Scotland, died and was succeeded by his second daughter's son Duncan rather than his first daughter's son Macbeth.
Demonskrye - [<---Animation Techniques at The Ink and Pixel Club]
posted @ Wed, Nov 25, 2009 7:08:53 pm EST from 146.115.115.75

Even without Greg's list of gargoyle clans, I'd argue against a gargoyle clan in Atlantis nowadays because it was destroyed (according to Plato) thousands of years ago. (Unless Greg's planning on the secret survival in a glass-domed city on the ocean floor concept - and we haven't seen any evidence of that yet.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Nov 25, 2009 6:54:29 pm EST from 4.244.211.165

In-Show Politics> I had kind of thought Renard would be a Libertarian due to the focus on individuals determining how they live their lives rather than being told how to live by the government. But I guess I can see how he might be attracted to the idea of less government interference in all aspects of life that some Republicans sometimes espouse. But I could just as easily see him being fed up with the whole thing because politics is such a messy, unpricinpled business so much of the time. Come to think of it, it would make a lot of sense for him to identify as an Independent.

I can see where Matt being a Libertarian could make sense, but then again, he is a cop and I don't get the sense that his only reason for being in that profession is so that he can expose the Illuminati. Even with his suspicions about the extent of their reach, I don't know that he thinks government in general is a bad idea. I'm not sure why Greg feels he is definitely a Democrat, but if that's how Greg sees it, I'm not gonna argue.
Demonskrye - [<---Animation Techniques at The Ink and Pixel Club]
posted @ Wed, Nov 25, 2009 6:28:21 pm EST from 146.115.115.75

LANDON> In my experience, there are idiotic conspiracy theories on both sides of the aisle.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Wed, Nov 25, 2009 6:09:59 pm EST from 74.88.215.133

Greg response: "Matt must be a Dem."

I'd interpret Bluestone's politics differently, personally. Most people who are that far into believing conspiracy theories are libertarian. They often hate both parties and think voting is fixed anyway. I suppose Matt could be an exception since all his theories turn out to be right in the end--maybe he just has very good intuition.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]
posted @ Wed, Nov 25, 2009 6:08:38 pm EST from 128.101.32.234

DEMONSKRYE> Keep in mind Greg did say that he wants to eventually adapt "The Last" for the SLG series, complete with Milo and Co. Provided that it's cool with the boys in legal.
Algernon
Never make fun of 80s cartoons. 80s cartoons are no laughing matter. 80s cartoons are more serious then AIDS.
posted @ Wed, Nov 25, 2009 5:44:14 pm EST from 86.41.124.197

IGN posted their interview with Greg Weisman on "Opening Night" and "Final Curtain"

http://tv.ign.com/articles/104/1049863p1.html
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Wed, Nov 25, 2009 3:48:45 pm EST from 74.88.215.133

Atlantean Clan> To be clear, "The Last" is canon-in-training at best, since it never actually aired and has only been heard or seen by a select number of people. And it was partly Greg trying to tie Gargoyles into the project he was working on at the time. Since then, his thinking on the exact details of Atlantis and its inhabitants - gargoyle and otherwise - may have changed.
Demonskrye - [<---Animation Techniques at The Ink and Pixel Club]
posted @ Wed, Nov 25, 2009 3:42:24 pm EST from 146.115.115.75

ROBBY BARROWS> We've posted a list of the current clans before, so you already know there is no clan in Atlantis now.

There may have once been, but they'd be extinct now.

As for whether they created the Praying Gargoyle, in the script for "The Last," Demona referred to the statuette as a gift from the Atlanteans to the gorlois... so unless she's got her details wrong, then no, the Atlantean gargoyle clan did not create the Praying Gargoyle.

Most of your questions are covered in the GargWiki, btw. So, feel free to check it.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Wed, Nov 25, 2009 2:54:28 pm EST from 74.88.215.133

I wonder, is there an ancient, Atlantean Gargoyle Clan residing in Atlantis and they are the people who created the Praying Gargoyle?
Robby Barrows - [rbgecko at yahoo dot com]
SuperSaiyaMan12
posted @ Wed, Nov 25, 2009 2:48:20 pm EST from 71.83.49.166

The "first Thanksgiving" that the Pilgrims held was a harvest festival; their thanksgiving days were fasts rather than feasts.

George Washington and other early presidents proclaimed occasional days of Thanksgiving, but it wasn't until Lincoln that Thanksgiving became a regular annual holiday. And it didn't start getting connected to the Pilgrims until some time after Lincoln.

The Pilgrims, incidentally, weren't Puritans. The Puritans were a group of people who wanted to purify the Church of England by removing anything that smacked to them of the Roman Catholic Church (such as stained-glass windows or priests). The Pilgrims came from a different group called the Separatists, who believed that the Church of England was beyond purification and that they should start their own church instead (hence their decision to go to Massachusetts). And not all of the passengers on the "Mayflower" were even Pilgrims; many were just looking for a fresh start in the New World for economic reasons, rather than religious.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Nov 25, 2009 8:25:52 am EST from 4.244.212.6

Thanksgiving originated with the Puritans in New England. It was established in November for the nation by Lincoln, but it was a woman named Sarah Josepha Hale who had spend years campaigning for Thanksgiving to be declared an official holiday.
Patrick - [<-- T-shirt Clearance Sale]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Wed, Nov 25, 2009 6:53:30 am EST from 173.88.135.205

Matt: Do you have any links to pictures of those?
Harvester of Eyes
posted @ Wed, Nov 25, 2009 6:20:19 am EST from 69.243.223.250

Thanksgiving was originally celebrated in September or early October; your government in 1941 set the law as the fourth Thursday in November for reasons unknown.

I only joke about American Thanksgiving because it`s always a month later than it was originally celebrated.

Action figures - Before the figures came out, I day-dreamt that I went to a toy company and told them to make Gargoyles toys, and that I got a complete set of them (free of course) for telling them to make the toys.
battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Tue, Nov 24, 2009 8:18:28 pm EST from 75.152.230.60

I'll admit that way back in the day I had dreams of more characters from Gargoyles becoming action figures, but mostly I focused on making my own custom gargoyle figures by doing repaints, sculpty molding, etc. A few of my favorite works were:

Coldstone - Used a ubiquitous Goliath figure, various Steel Clan robot parts and some sculpty for his horn.
Angela - A Demona repaint mostly, though I did file off the shoulder pads, change her wardrobe (including adding a new belt buckle) and scuplted some longer hair.
Zafiro - A Goliath figure plus sculpty and a piece from a Dragonheart toy, if I recall correctly.
English Gargoyle - Used a Hudson figure and the minotaur armor pieces to make a bull-like gargoyle. VERY cool looking. Also used a Goliath figure and the griffon armor to make a Griff-like figure.
Demona's Clan - Made Demona's Second using a Goliath body, a Broadway head, lots of sculpty for horns and armor. Turned out well. Also did a "Kermit" using a Lexington body, cutting off the wings and adding pieces of Brooklyn's wings.
Boudicca - A Bronx repaint obviously... plus some sculpty.

With all the leftover pieces and such I made a lot of random Scottish gargoyles as well, including a cool female one that started out as a Lexington and was given breasts, an Ophelia-like crest and hair. I think I also started on a Desdemona figure and a hatchling gargoyle, but never finished those.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" -Sevarius, 'Louse'
posted @ Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:35:01 pm EST from 70.230.153.140

Sorry, Canada, we were first. The United States made Thanksgiving an annual tradition on the final Thursday in November starting in 1863 (as declared by President Lincoln), and it became a federal holiday set on the fourth Thursday in November in 1941. Canada's Parliament didn't get around to making Thanksgiving official until January 31, 1957, and for some reason they picked the 2nd Monday in October.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving_(United_States)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving_(Canada)
Patrick - [<-- T-shirt Clearance Sale]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:34:52 pm EST from 173.88.135.205

Blaise> Thanksgiving was almost two months ago!
battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Tue, Nov 24, 2009 1:33:09 pm EST from 75.152.230.60

Wingless> Well, that where the idea of balance comes in. Does it make sense in the context of the series? No. But ultimately this is a toyline and kids like to have vehicles for their figures. At least in this case, no one is insisting that the vehicles be in the show.
Demonskrye - [<---Animation Techniques at The Ink and Pixel Club]
posted @ Tue, Nov 24, 2009 12:45:05 pm EST from 146.115.115.75

Re toyline: well, looking at the current toyline for the Spectacular Spiderman. They've just introduced vehicles for Spidey! Sure, Poor Peter Parker-living with his Aunt can afford Hi tech vehicles. Give me a break.
Wingless
posted @ Tue, Nov 24, 2009 12:36:10 pm EST from 99.245.254.123

RE: Gargoyles Toyline

Frankly, I've always been stunned that there where never any Pack action figures, particularly post-upgrade. They're pretty much the most toyetic characters in the whole show.

I for one would have payed good money for a Coyote figure that could launch it's own head like a missile.
Algernon
Never make fun of 80s cartoons. 80s cartoons are no laughing matter. 80s cartoons are more serious then AIDS.
posted @ Tue, Nov 24, 2009 12:29:44 pm EST from 86.40.251.254

Pardon the double post, but the additional ideas just hit me.

Some of these are going to be non-show variations, but bear with me. I'm trying to make them both sensible and fun.

GARGOYLES - WORLD TOUR SUBLINE

Shadows of the Past Wave:
*Basic Goliath
*Basic Angela
*Basic Elisa
*Translucent Ghost Captain
*Tanslucent Ghost Hakon
*Box Set: Basic Bronx with Skiff

Heritage Wave:
*Basic Goliath
*Basic Elisa
*Basic Angela
*Raven
*Natsilane

Kingdom Wave (It's kind of stretching the concept, but I'll do it):
*Basic Brooklyn
*Talon
*Maggie
*Claw
*Fang

Monsters Wave:
*Underwater Gear Goliath (He had a breath mask, right? Start from that.)
*Underwater Gear Elisa
*Underwater Gear Bronx (I know it's silly. I don't care.)
*Sevarius
*Box Set: Underwater Gear Angela with Nessie (who could probably be repainted into Big Daddy down the road.)

Golem Wave:
*Basic Goliath
*Basic Elisa
*Basic Angela
*Tomas Brod
*Halcyon Renard
*Box Set: Max Loew with Golem

Sanctuary Wave:
*Basic Goliath
*Basic Angela
*Armored Thailog
*Wedding Dress Demona
*Macbeth

M.I.A. Wave:
*Basic Goliath
*Basic Elisa
*Griff
*Una
*Leo

Grief Wave:
*Basic Angela (The only lead in this wave because there's so much else.)
*Anubis
*Hyena
*Jackal with snap-on pieces to turn him into avatar of Anubis
*Emir with different set of snap-on avatar pieces

Hound of Ulster Wave:
*Basic Goliath
*Basic Elisa
*Basic Bronx
*Cu Chullain
*Banshee
*Box Set: Cromm-Cruach with Rory Dugan (I know it makes more sense to pack her with Cu Chullain, but I'm thinking about which of them would sell better as a single figure.)

Walkabout Wave:
*Dreamtime Goliath
*Matrix
*Preggers Fox Xanatos(I assume there would be a standard on from the main line.)
*Anastasia Renard
*Dingo with Matrix Armor

Mark of the Panther Wave:
*Basic Goliath
*Basic Angela
*Basic Elisa
*Diane Maza (Exciting perfectly ordinary middle aged woman figure!)
*Fara Maku (I'd like him to transform into a panther, but that would probably result in a weird looking figure, so maybe a non poseable panther figure packed with him would be better)
*Box Set: Anansi with Tea (and probably another panther figure.)

Pendragon Wave:
*Basic Broadway
*Basic Lexington
*Basic Griff (from M.I.A. wave)
*King Arthur Pendragon
*Basic Macbeth (from Sanctuary wave or main line)
*Box Set: Stone Dragon with Lady of the Lake

Eye of the Storm Wave:
*Eye of Odin Goliath
*Elisa with Parka
*Basic Angela
*Basic Bronx
*Odin

New Olympians Wave
*Prisoner Elisa
*Basic Goliath
*Taurus
*Boreas
*Proteus (maybe with snap-on pieces to make him resemble Taurus's dad?)

The Green Wave:
*Basic Angela
*Zafiro
*Obsidiana
*Jackal (same as Grief wave, but no avatar pieces)
*Hyena (same as Grief wave)
*Box Set: Basic Bronx, Jade, and Turquesa

Sentinel Wave:
*Basic Elisa
*Basic Goliath
*Nokkar
*Lydia Duane
*Arrhur Moorwood-Smyth (Last two would likely come with a bunch of artificat accessories.)

Bushindo Wave:
*Kimono Goliath
*Kimono Angela
*Kimono Elisa
*Kai
*Yama

Cloud Fathers Wave:
*Basic Elisa
*Beth Maza (Anyone have any accessory ideas?)
*Peter Maza (Exciting ordinary middle aged man figure.)
*Coyote (Child or Oberon)
*Coyote 4.0

Ill Met By Moonlight Wave:
*Basic Goliath
*Basic Angela
*Oberon
*Titania
*Ophelia

Future Tense Wave:
*FT Brooklyn
*FT Demona
*FT Broadway
*FT Lexington
*Thailog Shock Troop
*Box Set: FT Claw, FT Matt Bluestone, and FT Alex Xanatos

Sheesh, just typing that out made me remember how long the World Tour seemed the first time I watched it. I think realistically, most of the rereleases of the basic main cast would have to have some specific accessories to make them more interesting. But that's the basic jist of it.
Demonskrye - [<---Animation Techniques at The Ink and Pixel Club]
posted @ Tue, Nov 24, 2009 12:02:22 pm EST from 146.115.115.75

Blaise> I'll be doing the usual things for Thanksgiving: going to my parents' house for dinner, and then joining my husband's family for leftovers day later in the week. Both of us have family nearby, so we each spend Thanksgiving with our respective families. Makes life easier.

As for building a better Gargoyles toyline, if you're going to inject any realism into the thinking process, it's a balancing act. Over the past decade or so you've started to see more lines aimed at older collectors, most toylines at least want to court the kid market as well as the collectors. The ideal would be for each wave of figures to have a couple of main characters, a villain, and maybe one or two secondary characters. You don't want to end up with a wave consisting of Elisa, Matt, Dracon, Glasses, and Sevarius. That, combined with the idea that there will always be kids who want the main character, is why you see some many toylines with so many variations on one or two characters. You never want to be in a situation where Goliath isn't available anymore. And if you put out a different Goliath, you can potentially get both kids who don't have a Goliath figure, and maybe some additional kids and collectors who will buy it because it's new and different.

You list is pretty thorough, but I would also like to see the rest of the clones. Even if they haven't had that many appearances, they are cool looking and could probably be done by reusing a lot of parts from the Manhattan Clan figures. It's a pity the Kenner line didn't last longer, because I think at least some of the clones would have likely been made for that exact reason. I'd also like to see some of the gargoyles from other clans. I think they would make good secondary character figures because even if people didn't remember them, they look cool and they're gargoyles. So they'd be more attractive on the shelf than some of the ordinary human figures. I'd say do the London Clan. Maybe the Mayan Clan (Zaphiro definitely). Kai, Yama, and Sora. Boudicca few of the cooler looking members of the Avalon Clan.

That's off the top of my head. I may come up with more later.
Demonskrye - [<---Animation Techniques at The Ink and Pixel Club]
posted @ Tue, Nov 24, 2009 10:33:33 am EST from 146.115.115.75

"10% of the English population in 1986 were slaves."

10% in 1986? I would have guessed punk rockers.
Patrick - [<-- T-shirt Clearance Sale]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:54:35 am EST from 173.88.135.205

You know speaking of action figures. I just picked up a Gemona with flapping wings from the Goodwill this afternoon. I haven't really been that interested in action figures since the late 80's, long before Gargoyles was even a gleem Greg W. or Disney's eye. But I just had to have this Demona.
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Tue, Nov 24, 2009 1:36:25 am EST from 69.54.209.20

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_medieval_Europe

Slavery existed in the British Isles as late as the eleventh century; 10% of the English population in 1986 were slaves.

I wonder how common slavery was in Scotland. Were there any slaves in Castle Wyvern?
Michael Ejercito - [mejercit at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:27:26 pm EST from 96.229.102.62

****Blaise materializes in the Room, looking somehow...less detailed.**** I've finally upgraded my Graphics card, but the darn computer doesn't recognize it, so no drivers yet. I'm stuck on the lowest resolution until I can figure out what's going on. Truth be told, I'd still be working on it, but the Room looked like it could use a shot in the arm first.

So, what do people have planned for Thanksgiving?

Okay, okay, something a little more "Gargoyles" oriented.
ACTION FIGURES> Every so often, I like to write down a list of "Gargoyles" action figures that I would have made had I been in charge at Kenner (and not subject to budget restraints, I admit). I couldn't figure out how I'd properly separate them by "Series", so I've listed them in pretty much stream of consciousness. Here's my list:

*Goliath (no additional clothes or armor that was never in the show, and white eyes, please)
*Brooklyn (with a neck, thank you very much)
*Broadway
*Lexington
*Hudson
*Angela
*Bronx (no glider pack)
*Elisa Maza (regular clothes, please)
*Xanatos (red gargoyle armor)
*Xanatos (non-gargoyle armor)
*Xanatos (iron gargoyle armor)
*Xanatos Program (from "Legion")
*Owen (with stone fist)
*Demona (forget the shoulder pads)
*Steel Clan Robot (pretty much like what we got)
*At least one Xanatos Commando
*Macbeth
Sub-Group: The Pack
**Fox
**Wolf
**Dingo
**Hyena
**Jackal
**Coyote 1.0
Sub-Sub-Group: The "Upgraded" Pack
***Mutate Wolf
***Cyber-Jackal
***Cyber-Hyena
***Power Armor Dingo
***Coyote 2.0 (and heck, put out 3.0 and 4.0 while we're at it)
*Dracon (think we could do figures of his henchmen? At least Glasses?)
*Matt Bluestone
*Coldstone
*Coldfire
*Coldsteel (I'd love to do their "living" versions, too: Othello, Desdemona, and Iago)
Sub-Group: The Mutates
**Talon
**Fang
**Claw
**Maggie the Cat
*Dr. Sevarius
*Thailog (both with and without armor)
Sub-Group: The Hunters
**Jason
**Robyn
**John
**Maybe a special figure for Gillecomgain, too
*Jon Castaway (and maybe another random Quarryman)
Sub-Group: Future Tense
**Brooklyn
**Demona
**Broadway
**Lexington
**Alexander Fox Xanatos
**Matt
**Claw
**Talon Soldier
**Thailog Schock Troop
**Xanatos Clan Robot
**Xanatos (?--is his design really that different?)

And there are A LOT more I'd love to do (Puck, Odinized-Goliath, the Werefox, gargoyles from other countries, the clones, etc.). But seriously, for any line of action figures, this is pretty packed. And that's not even entering into vehicles and play sets.

Anyway, there's my list--please state your own ideas (the Room needs love!). Until next time! ****Blaise rolls up his sleeves and gets back to work on his computer.****
Blaise
"Now...if you trust in yourself...and believe in your dreams...and follow your star...you'll still get beaten by people who spent THEIR time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy."--Miss Tick, "The Wee Free Men"
posted @ Mon, Nov 23, 2009 7:50:38 pm EST from 76.208.129.146

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