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The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending June 14, 2010

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Blaise> I read about Kenner's issue awhile back myself. Perhaps in the 80s, such a fear would be reasonable, but in the 90s there was a movie to prove it unfounded.

What I'm refering to is the success of Beauty and the Beast, which actually did the role reversal. You had the monsterous Beast who became a much more mellow and kind individual.

You had Gaston who looks more like a Disney Hero. Heck, in most films, the villain song is about how feared and despicable they are, whereas his song was the townspeople admiring him.


****Blaise rolls a giant cake into the Room covered with 30 candles.**** Hey everybody! Guess what age I turned today.

GARGOYLES AS AN '80s TOON> Yeah, that was talked about in January of 2009, wasn't it? I see you've added a few things to your list since then, Greg. I made a little list of my own then, too (I had just re-watched the animated Dungeons & Dragons series on DVD and felt in an '80s mood). Let's see what I said...[digs through the archives, brings out a post, blows off the dust and reads:]

<"In deference to the Moral Guardians' demand that a constantly reinforced moral of any series be "The Complainer is Always Wrong"--
--the '80s "Gargoyles" series will have a resident complainer (most likely they'd make it Brooklyn) who will always disagree with the group, always be humiliated or otherwise put in danger because he did not follow the group, but will come around in the end. Invariably, EVERY episode will end with something "funny" happening to the Complainer, and every other character having a good belly laugh at his expense.">
I don't know if this would have been a given (I can't remember if Transformers or G.I. Joe or Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles were subject to this), but it was pretty much the whole point of Eric's existence on Dungeons & Dragons.

<A major plot point of the series will be the gargoyles' attempts to get back to their own time (massacre? What massacre?). But, at the end of every episode, they will come within a hair's breadth of going home only for something (the villain, their own righteous code of honor, etc.) to force them to stay in modern times. This would NEVER be resolved.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FailureIsTheOnlyOption ">
I still agree with this one.

<"There would be NO origin episode (sorry "Awakening" fans). The pilot would take place within the current situation. All pertinent information as to "how we got here" would be given in the introduction.">
Think about it--how many of your favorite animated shows in the '80s had actual origin stories? The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are Transformers and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Even Dungeons & Dragons had just a pilot that specifically introduces all of the main heroes and villain, but even that takes place pretty much "in media res." I wonder if this was so the episodes could (theoretically, at least) be aired in any order.

<"The *flawless* hero has a female counterpart on the team that is obviously the only match for him. They're not in any obvious relationship, it's just that she's basically..."the chick." How does this differ from the Goliath/Elisa romance? Well, for one thing, it would be another gargoyle. Maybe Demona's good in this iteration, or maybe it's a new character. Or maybe Angela ISN'T Goliath's daughter in this version (don't think about it...). Or maybe Brooklyn's the hero and Angela goes with him instead of Broadway.">
Or they just go for broke and make Elisa a gargoyle from the start. But like I said, they'd never make it obvious or anything (no kissing, etc). After all, their primary audience is boys (and boys hate "mushy stuff").

<"For that matter, eating and being strong would be ALL there is to Broadway. Oh, sure he'd have the occasional spotlight episode where he saves the day, but don't expect anything in it to carry over to the next episode. He'll remain a fairly one-note character.">
Yeah, Greg B. already mentioned this one.

<"Their theme song (yes, it would be a song) may feature some sort of roll call (similar to the one for TMNT). I once tried to imagine something like that...my imagination went on strike.">
Pretty self-explanatory there.

Let's see...ah, here's one last one:
<"The gargoyles are the monstrous villains, the Pack (or maybe the Canmore siblings) are the heroes.">
...wow. Yeah. That's a big difference from all the other ideas I had (and completely incompatible with them). But, if you think about it, the Pack or the Canmore trio would make marketable action figures with their quasi super-hero looks (yes, even the Canmores) and high-tech vehicles, while the gargoyles look like they could fit right in to Skeletor's little army. Well...maybe not Lex so much. Or Hudson if you think about it...actually, even Broadway and Angela might need a few cosmetic tweaks (especially around the eyes) to really fit in, but OVERALL the gargoyles look more like your typical animated villains (which was one of the things I loved about the series). In fact, in their memo on the action figure line, Kenner pointed out that dichotomy as one of their concerns:

Okay, hopefully a few people will get a chance to see this in the 4 hours and 50 minutes or so before the Room wipes. Until next time! ****Blaise takes a deep breath (really deep--so deep he blows up like a balloon) and blows out the candles on the cake...while blowing himself out of the Room.****


Michael Ejercito - Gargoyles as a '50s cartoon? Theatrical or TV? TV...*Cringe* TV animation in the 50s and early 60s was all about limited animation and "how you can do something on the cheap". That's how Hanna Barbera became so successful. They found a formula that worked and ran with it(Plus-MGM went out of making regular theatrical cartoons and they bought the studio-if I remember correctly). Same with Warner Brothers. They shut down their Theatrical cartoon studio in the mid 1960s-but kept making shorts by leasing the work out to other companies like Depatti-Freeling until the late 60's. As for TV animation, the the complexety and detail is better now than ever, but one can argue over some of the story writing. There's some good now-there's alot of bad now. There was some really good and really bad then.

For instance-I grew up with the original late 60s spider man series. Sure, it wasn't brilliant animation, but there were some great voices - and I loved the music(and just this week found scads of the underscore music!!) The stories were a mix of good and bad-and the series evolved over 3 seasons, partially because of change in directors & writers, but also buget cuts to the show by ABC at the time. Hell, there were even recycled scripts from another animated show that allowed them to re-use animation just by replacing the main character! Hell, one of the episodes was initially banned by ABC for being to dark and scary.
TV animation has a fun history behind it if you're willing to do some digging. Point is. Gargoyles was done at a good time. Could it be done better now? Animation wise-maybe, but I think, for me-they couldn't have improved on the stories, voices or music-and that's a huge bulk of what akes the show what it is.


Greg B.> Hey, feel free to let the bile truly spew forth; the comment room will roll over soon enough. I will admit I felt a slight spark of hope upon learning of Shockwave taking the lead villain role, but other than that, my expectations are pretty much nonexistent for the movie (Bay's slight admission of the horror of RotF and LeBeouf's willingness to admit when he does things poorly notwithstanding).
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

As for Thailog in an 80s rendition of Gargoyles, he'd exist in a way, but not as Thailog.

He'd be a one shot clone of Goliath who would disappear by episodes end (due to destroying the device that creates him). And he would be the typical clone rather than the illegitamite child type character.


What if Gargoyles was a '50's cartoon?
Michael Ejercito - [mejercit at hotmail dot com]

Does the sky need a name? Does the river?

Yes, Sky and River. Lenguage is but a code of names, Hudson dear :P


Greg B. > Pure poetic honesty. You put it well. That man needs to be lynched.
Does the sky need a name? Does the river?

BRAINIAC> I've heard, and, well, quite frankly, fool me once, Michael Bay, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Michael Bay would have to admit his entire filmography sucked ass, and I would have to force him to watch every Alfred Hitchcock movie until his eyes bleed, and then hear universally positive reviews before I even considered watching this crap on cable.

The first movie was terrible. The second was a cinematic abomination created by a shit-flinging monkeychild.

LOL, shall I tell you how I really feel? ;)

Greg Bishansky
Demona likes Buffalo Wings.


AWESOME! Hope to get more comics soon!!


Greg B> - Elisa Maza would have been a man. She'd have probably been Matt Bluestone, actually.

- To be fair, TMNT 1987 had April as the Turtle's regular ally, but to be accurate, Elisa would constantly get in trouble as she'd be unable to defend herself.

- Lexington would also be able to accomplish anything in the scientific field.

- Xanatos would frequently throw temper tantrums, while taking Demona and Sevarius' ideas for himself. Example:

Sevarius: I suggest we ruin Christmas.
Xanatos: That's a stupid idea. I have a better idea. I suggest we ruin Christmas.

- There would be maybe one episode where Fox might reveal that she has a crush on Xanato, but nothing will ever come out of it.

Now which character would be the disagreeable one who conforms to group thinking?


Greg B.> Heh, not bad. On the subject of old eighties cartoons but in a modern form, I wonder if you've heard who the primary villain is slated to be for Bay's upcoming Fox-less Transformers flick?
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

I wrote this up a couple years back, and thought I'd share it again:

A lot of people are nostalgic for 80's cartoons. They call that the best period in TV animation ever (those people are mentally ill). So, what if "Gargoyles" was an 80's cartoon.

- Goliath and his clan would never have evacuated the castle.

- Elisa Maza would have been a man. She'd have probably been Matt Bluestone, actually.

- Goliath would have no character flaws, whatsoever.

- New gargoyles would appear, as members of Goliath's clan, out of no where.

- Angela would have worn pink. Hell, Angela would have BEEN pink!

- Lexington would be such a savant, he could build space ships, time machines, dimensional gateways, and anything.

- Brooklyn would talk like Michelangelo in the 80's Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. He'd also be Angela's love interest.

- Broadway would be, well, do I need to tell you what kind of stereotype he'd be?

- Xanatos would have been a straight up criminal "mastermind" who's plans never worked. The Pack would have been his incompetent henchmen. Owen wouldn't exist. Demona and Sevarius would be his two more competent, but still unsuccessful henchmen.

- Demona would not be Goliath's ex-mate (because that would mean they once had sex). She'd either be Goliath's former friend, former rival, or rival sister. I imagine she'd serve as Xanatos's Starscream... with a matching track record.

- Sevarius as a mad scientist would be an expert in EVERYTHING.

- The major plot line would have involved Xanatos wanting to gather together the three great talismans so he could rule the world. This would never get resolved.

- Xanatos would wear a mask and you'd never see his face. Probably a cape, too. Also, you'd never hear the name "David." He would just be "Xanatos."

- Alex Xanatos would never exist.

- Thailog would exist and remain loyal to Xanatos.

- The motorcycle and helicopter would have been in every episode.

- At some point, Goliath, Hudson and Brooklyn would have gained elemental control over fire, water, and ice respectively.

- William Shakespeare? Who is that? Some English fart? He doesn't sell toys.

- Goliath and Xanatos would join forces to battle an evil drug dealer! Because drugs are so evil, even the evil criminal masterminds think they're bad!

Greg Bishansky
Demona likes Buffalo Wings.

Missed this one from a couple months ago: http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/thread.jspa?threadID=2000214822&tstart=0

"Greg Weisman has written the Green Arrow short for Warner Home Video's DC Showcase animated program, The Continuum has learned."

Apparently the DC Showcase shorts run before the full-length direct-to-DVD superhero movies Warner releases.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

LOL yeah I know, oh well at least its a draw
VickyUK - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]

Well Vicky, your hopeful prediction at the beginning of the week was correct for total number of points. Unfortunately, your distribution of said points was only half right.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

I recieved my copy of both Gargoyles season 1 and 2 part 1 today is a good day! Watching on Youtube and occasionaly on Disney XD how great the animation is it holds up well guess having a good transfer helps. I'd like to comment also that my ideal Gargoyles return would be the Clan building storyline not after and a season of 24 episodes
Andres - [escodr3s at yahoo dot com]

Haha, I totally hear you there. Greg knows his stuff, and you can't get great stories out of characters, especially ones so deeply established, unless you work and work and work the story. Greg knows that, and apparently the replacements didn't. That's why I love the show so much, and I'm sure you all agree. That's why we're here, right? It's just getting others to realize that.
Does the sky need a name? Does the river?

ANTIYONDER - Though even aside from that, many of the elements in "The Goliath Chronicles" are questionable no matter which universe they were written for (such as why the Quarrymen hate the gargoyles so much if they know that they're really noble protectors, or how Castaway could be out of prison and in good standing with an Assistant District Attorney after firing heavy artillery in downtown Manhattan - you don't need to be well-acquainted with the Gargoyles Universe to see the plotholes there). The new team must have had not only very little time to get acquainted with the characters and setting, but very little time to come up with stories, period.
Todd Jensen

<Of course I want more Weisman Garg stories anyway.>

We all do, don't we?


Anyway, while I'd prefer to continue the established canon, I can't really say that The Goliath Chronicles is the best example of Gargoyles without Greg behind them. The writing problem was also due to the fact that the newcomers didn't have time to familiarize themselves with the show, the characters and the style of writing.

I mean even if it's just moments rather than a full episode, there were parts of the story that worked (Like Robbins' acknowledging Hudson as being a gargoyle and Lex's friendship with Alex). Heck even those who don't care for the Marvel Comics series seem to enjoy #4 and 10-11.

Of course I want more Weisman Garg stories anyway.

Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
Algernon's comment about Norman Osborn: One of the neat things about Dark Reign is that it gives Osborn the chance to expand his horizons beyond tormenting a twenty nine year old who still lives with his mom.

Anthony Tini

Sorry, for the double post, but another thing to consider is that with the new characters, there's a plausible reason to actually delve into the flashbacks (thus filling in the info the reader needs). Kind of like how Shari is informed of the mutates and the clones in #3.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
Algernon's comment about Norman Osborn: One of the neat things about Dark Reign is that it gives Osborn the chance to expand his horizons beyond tormenting a twenty nine year old who still lives with his mom.

Thing is that Greg W mentioned that he's found that there are readers who read Clan Building without knowledge of the series, plus I've seen at least one reviewer who didn't see much of the series and was still able to get into the comics.

The big problem that the comics faced:
1. Lack of name familiarity (i.e. Spider-Man, Batman, Transformers, Sonic The Hedgehog, Mickey Mouse).
2. Constant delays, thus some readers found it a chore to keep up.
3. Some would drop the title after the first trade came out under with the intent to wait for the next trade. I mean with Spider-Man and X-Men this is doable, but Gargoyles had a small number of buyers to begin with.

Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
Algernon's comment about Norman Osborn: One of the neat things about Dark Reign is that it gives Osborn the chance to expand his horizons beyond tormenting a twenty nine year old who still lives with his mom.

Demonskrye> There are several DVDs there that are years old and have multiple copies on the shelf. I was there at least once every year since 2005 and ONLY ONCE did I ever see the DVD on the shelf. >:( *SIGH*

TODD> The Time-Travel story was one that amazed me. Rosa went and re-drew the SAME PANEL from the earlier telling of the story, but at a different angle. The attention to detail is incredible. He really thinks out his stories.

And yes, all the money in his bin is worthless to him compared to his memories and memorabilia. I like that. The stories keep getting better!

Battle Beast - [Canada]
I have started a movie challenge whereby I am wtching all 475 Best Picture nominees and winners in 365 days. I am on Day #71 and movie #88... wish me luck!

Tony and NinjaSheik> The ideal would be for a new TV series to pick up right where "Clan Building" left off with completely new stories. But a reboot means that the show starts over completely with a new continuity that doesn't necessarily retell any of the same stories as the pervious series. Not necessarily the best thing from a fan perspective, but maybe a more likely possibility, though I still think any kind of new Gargoyles TV show is a long shot.

I've said before that the continuity of Gargoyles is both one of the properties biggest strengths and one of its biggest issues. Yes, there is a possibility that someone could watch a hypothetical new Gargoyles TV series that picked up where the comic ended would say "Wow, look at all these characters I don't know who all seem to have shared histories. I'm confused. I'd better go out and buy the DVDs and comics." But i think it's equally, if not more likely, that a new viewer would think "Wow, look at all these characters I don't know who all seem to have shared histories. I'm confused. I'm going to watch another show instead." That's what the competition would be for a show that picked up where "Clan Building" ended would be: shows that don't have 65 episodes and 18 issues worth of backstory.

Battle Beast> To be fair, these are six and five year old DVDs now. I don't know that a lot of brick and mortar stores are actively getting new copies.

I'm glad your enjoying Rosa's Scrooge stories and I hope volume 2 of Life and Times comes out soon so you can have the pleasure of reading that.

Demonskrye - [<---TaleSpin at The Ink and Pixel Club]

Random Topic #1 -- I know I can't be the only person to be a fan of Electric Tiki on Facebook, but I haven't seen anyone else post this recent message from them yet, so enjoy :) --

Just a heads up that our Classic Heroes Goliath statue from Disney's Gargoyles will go up for pre-order tomorrow night, June 10th at http://www.sideshowtoy.com/ It will be available through Diamond Comics Previews in the next couple of months. We will, however, be basing our edition size on Sideshow's pre-orders.

Random Topic #2 -- Anyone else who's taken a gander at A Thousand and One Arabian Nights and quickly discovered that Scheherazade doesn't say the popular Shari line, "The story is told, though who could say if it be true..." I hope are as pleasantly surprised as I am with Greg's recent revelation regarding that he did not make up the line, a hint that it does exist somewhere in some media in some form d: I personally have no idea where to begin hunting (knowing 1001 is a dead end . . . at least when that line is specifically concerned), but I imagine someone around here one day might be clever enough to figure an actual guess d:

"The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

BATTLE BEAST - I'm sorry to hear that you haven't received your copy of Volume Two yet, and hope that it'll soon arrive.

And you might like to know that Scrooge meets Theodore Roosevelt again in that volume (in the story telling how he started building his money bin on the hill overlooking Duckburg).

I also enjoyed the Panama Canal story in "Companion", especially the part where T.R. says that motion pictures will be just a short-lived fad. I also enjoyed the Magica de Spell time travel story at the start, and the story about the Beagle Boys and Donald Duck invading Scrooge's dreams. (I think that story demonstrates, more than anything, that Scrooge's colorful adventures mean even more to him than his wealth.)

Todd Jensen

I was at Disneyland this last week, and I didn't see ONE SINGLE COPY of the Gargoyles DVDs on their shelves. Why is that??? You'd think they'd WANT to sell it. I can't understand why , with their extensive selection of DVDs, they don't have THAT one, unless they DON"T WANT to have it available.

Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck> my copy of Volum 2 is delayed AGAIN. However, I did manage to find the first COMPANION. That was sooooo mych fun!

I was amazed to find out Scrooge had a crush on a girl and that a lock of hair is his most treasured posession. I LOVE Rosa's stories. They are soo funny, touching, and all around well done. Especially love the "Teddy Roosevelt" story in Panama. Still can't wait for Vol. 2.

I have yet to read a comic that have as much historical accuracy combined with fun and a great character.

(Aside from gargoyles, of course.)

Battle Beast - [Canada]
I have started a movie challenge whereby I am wtching all 475 Best Picture nominees and winners in 365 days. I am on Day #71 and movie #88... wish me luck!

<Ideally, if Gargoyles was going to get a reboot or a "restart", I would want Greg Weisman involved and I would want the story to start right where Clan Building ended.>

I agree with you, Anthony. I mean, look how the Goliath Chronicles turned out. It was poorly recieved by fans and Greg Weisman stated it's not even canon to the real Gargoyles.

If there is going to be a "reboot" then Greg Weisman should have a say in it. They're his characters, he created them. Disney might owned it, it seems in my eyes they don't even care about Gargoyles anymore.

I want to see the real Gargoyles from where they picked up from season 2, starting from what happned in Clan Buliding.


Ideally, if Gargoyles was going to get a reboot or a "restart", I would want Greg Weisman involved and I would want the story to start right where Clan Building ended.

This way, if "disconnected" fans watch the show and they say to themselves, "where did all these 'new' characters come from?", it will behoove them to go back and buy the seasons that are available on DVD as well as the comics.

Whatever network that airs this reboot could even create a website and make the comics either available or at least post a few pages to tease the visitors of the site thus creating even more incentive to purchase them.

With the right financial backing, marketing, and creative people involved would make this a worthwhile and profitable venture. We can only hope for the success of these 80s reboots so they continue to reboot other cartoons, and Gargoyles gets its turn, especially with its loyal cult following.

Anthony Tini

You all bring up great points I would like to see what happens all this came off Thundercats post and the hope the series would revive. I think you cant hope that too high in my personal opinion. Warner sees a need to bring back Thundercats because it gives them name recognition and a slot to fill.
Im not sure with Disney buying Marvel especially I dont think Gargoyles is even on there radar. Im not sure Disney even knows what to do or how to market Gargoyles I think you can do both a reboot and newepisodes u know make a Gargoyles 2 part 1 hour special or a marathon soemthhing could work on both lines. I wonder if Greg ahs too much on his plate right now to even do a Gargoyles season. I think is on point when they write on here that the best hope for the Gargoyles as we know it is the comic book format and Gargoyles I think was made for that format considering its arch, the action, and complex storylines. So to that I wonder people have discussed the Boom studios possibility but wasnt Disney gonna make its own comic imprint called Kingdom comics how would Gargoyles fit in then?

Andres - [escodr3s at yahoo dot com]

They'd be more likely to come up with an entirely new series anyway. The closest they'd come to a remake would be a new series with their familiar cartoon characters (Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck, Goofy, etc.).
Todd Jensen

Todd> In general, I think the possibility of Disney doing any kind of new Gargoyles TV series is very slim. However, if it did happen, I don't think Disney would be averse to a remake out of fear that would alienate the existing fans. My guess is that the sales of the DVDs led Disney to conclude that there aren't enough fans who are interested in the property to support any Gargoyles product, much less cause major problems if a new show isn't to their liking. A smart company will take reasonable steps to keep fans of a property happy if those fans are a large group that the company wants to market their new product toward. A small fandom isn't going to be of much concern and right now, the people who don't know or don't care about Gargoyles make up a much larger and more desirable consumer base than those who do.

Of course, all of this is assuming that the theoretical DIsney employees who decide to revive Gargoyles would even get to the point of being aware of the fandom's concern and dismissing them. They could easily fail to realize that there are still people who want to know what happens next or that The Goliath Chronicles isn't considered a legitimate ending to the series by fans.

Unless Disney was willing to make a big push for the DVDs, get the rest of seson two released, and start showing the first two seasons at more watchable hours, I think they would consider a continuation of a sixteen year old continuity heavy television series more of a risk than starting over from the beginning. And to reiterate, I think any kind of new TV show is a long shot.

Demonskrye - [<---TaleSpin at The Ink and Pixel Club]

I just remembered that a few years ago there was a new series of Biker Mice From Mars. I saw the first episode, having watched some of the original series way back when, and was quite pleasantly surprised that it followed on from the original series rather than rebooting. I never saw any other episodes and I don't know if it was successful, but maybe there's something in what they tried to do that could apply to Gargoyles?

A few more thoughts I had about whether Disney might reboot "Gargoyles" with a new continuity, and if so, what it might be like:

1. I mentioned yesterday that such reboots generally happen to comic book super-heroes from DC and Marvel - though the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles also fall into this category. Then I remembered, after writing that, that all of those characters started off as comic book figures, with the animated series they appeared in - even the very first ones - all being adaptations of the comic books that originated them. So, naturally, each series would be a different interpretation of the character from the root source (kind of like how King Arthur has been interpreted differently by T. H. White, Mary Stewart, and Marion Zimmer Bradley).

But "Gargoyles"'s source *was* the 1994-96 animated series; the series wasn't an adaptation of an earlier comic book (if anything, the Marvel comic book was a spin-off of it). So the same thing doesn't hold true for it.

2. I think that Disney would decide against the "reboot" option as too iffy. It would probably antagonize most of the old fans (a critical target audience for a revival of "Gargoyles") who want to see "What happened next?", rather than an approach of "Let's start all over again from the beginning", and that wouldn't bode well for its survival.

3. Someone raised the prospect that the World Tour and Angela would be omitted from a remake. I thought of another reason why Angela might be omitted besides her link to the World Tour; while most "Gargoyles" fans approved of the revelation that there were other gargoyles out there, I know that a few didn't, and thought that the series was a lot better when it seemed as if Goliath, Hudson, the trio, Bronx, and Demona were the only gargoyles left in the world. The people in charge of the "reboot" might think the same way.

(That raises the question, in turn, of whether that makes the series far bleaker, with the gargoyles doomed to extinction even if the humans can learn to live in peace with them. The prospective "reboot" of course, might try to solve that by a direction similar to that of "Superman"; while the gargoyles are irrevocably the last of their kind and their species comes to an end with them, there's still hope in what their presence means for Manhattan: six stalwart new protectors for it, who may even inspire others to follow their example after they're gone.)

Todd Jensen

lvl27_Cubone> Different people have different ideas of what "ain't broke." While Gargoyles wasn't a show Disney hated as some people have claimed, it wasn't a runaway success either. My impression is that what Disney wanted when they first considered bringing Gargoyles to Saturday morning was a show with some existing name recognition and an audience that would hopefully follow it from the Disney Afternoon to the new ABC Saturday morning block. But changing networks and timeslots also meant that the show had to win over new viewers who had never seen Gargoyles before. My guess (because I have no inside information) is that someone thought the best way to do that would be to go ahead with stories that didn't rely so heavily on continuity and length story arcs, stories that returned to the status quo at the end of each episode. While I don't agree, I can at least understand the thinking. The show that Gargoyles consistently came i second to was Power Ranges and you can see how the ideas of "rebranding" the show with a new name and giving viewers a fresh start and self-contained stories used in <i>The Goliath Chronicles</i> might have come from there. In this case, I think a total reboot of the concept might have been better, as what we got was many characters from the first two seasons being pulled in to the third season, but with their most interesting traits being dropped or severely misinterpreted. All the problems of a continuity driven show with none of the benefits.

Again, I don't believe that Disney considered Gargoyles an embarassment that needed to go away. But based on Greg W's own account of how he came to leave the show, I can't help but conclude that someone at Disney wanted him off the series. Maybe it was because they wanted to take it in a direction that they didn't think Greg would go along with; maybe it was something else.

Demonskrye - [<---TaleSpin at The Ink and Pixel Club]

Well, if they wanted to do a new series that picked up where the TV show left off then they could do a new show that did exactly that, BUT, also replay the old episodes so fans new and old will know whats going on (like a refresher course).

Its either that or have alot of flashbacks when an old character shows up so new fans will know whats up.

Any other thoughts on how much crime really exists on new olympus?


Kinda makes you wonder why they gave him the boot in the first place. Don't mess what ain't broke. *shrugs*
Does the sky need a name? Does the river?

How well did Clan Building do compared to the Goliath Chronicles?

I'm sure that the upper echelons at Disney realize that when Greg is involved, you get things like Clan Building, and when he isn't, you get things like the Goliath Chronicles.

I'd love believe that Disney would prefer something like Clan Building to something like the Goliath Chronicles, of course.

Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

Rebel> Well, Greg's a well known guy around Disney I imagine, at least someone important there know of him, how hard would it be for him to at least talk to the people involved about a show that was originally his? I know there's some stuff involved I have no clue about, but if Gargoyles did ever make a comeback, he'd do something to voice himself if he's not on the team. Whether or not it will influence anything is the real question I think.
Does the sky need a name? Does the river?

Random comment, but "Yay Greg!" for having less than 50 questions left in the queue :D
"The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Cubone> "and I'm sure he would be, I don't think he'd take Disney butchering his baby lightly"

I wish I could agree with you, but the problem is that Disney, not Greg, owns Gargoyles. If Disney wanted to, they could do a reboot of Gargoyles and make numerous radical changes without ever consulting Greg. And that's why the prospect of a reboot someday is both exciting and scary. If Greg's involved, it would be great and I'm sure I'd enjoy it (even if it didn't last long enough to get to any new material). But if Greg's not involved...well, there are many other amazing storytellers out there, but they just don't know the Gargoyles characters and the Gargoyles universe like Greg does.


That's not really a question that could be answered by us, but we could speculate some possibilities. As Rebel said, a lot of fans (myself included, partially at least, because it just went on so long, and the clan being separated breaks up the show a bit) didn't like the World Tour, so they might trim that down a bit, or exclude it altogether and find a different way to introduce characters, if they are to be included in the show at all.

Regardless, it's up to the writers to decide what gets put in or not, and there's not much we can predict, if the show makes a return at all. If it does, I'd have a hard time watching it unless Greg was seriously involved (and I'm sure he would be, I don't think he'd take Disney butchering his baby lightly). I'd also hope that they don't drastically make too many aesthetic changes, especially with characters, as they're great as they are, and stylizing them would be really awkward.

lvl_27 Cubone
Does the sky need a name? Does the river?

If there was a plot reboot, what elements would be excluded?
Michael Ejercito - [mejercit at hotmail dot com]

I wonder if "Gargoyles" *could* have a reboot. It works easily for series based on familiar super-heroes from DC and Marvel Comics (Superman, Batman, Spiderman, etc.), and there was even a second "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" series with a different continuity from the original (more dramatic in tone - they recently aired a crossover movie between the two series, and a really funny one at that). But those properties were all familiar to the general public, and "Gargoyles" isn't. I don't think that a remake would work - especially since the main reason why we want to see the series return is to find out what happened to the clan after "Hunter's Moon" (or now, after "Clan-Building"). If we just wanted a new high-quality animated adventure series, it'd be far simpler to come up with something entirely new.
Todd Jensen

Dagomir> Well one of the defining themes of Gargoyles is the idea that "there is good and evil in all of us". Plus we know the New Olympians series would have included other NO antagonists like Jove and Ekidna. Given that I think it's safe to say Taurus has to deal with his fair share criminal scum. Though I doubt many of them are quite as ruthless or sociopathically depraved as Proteus.

No Mecha-Nation in the Diamond lists today, but Uncle Scrooge #392 (the 1st DuckTales issue) comes out Wednesday and Darkwing Duck #1 is slated for next week.


Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Sorry for the double. I was responding to Angel Berrios.

By the way, I just re-read what I wrote, and I obviously phrased things poorly, cause it looks like I'm contradicting myself in some places. To clarify, I think they would tell *essentially* the same story (i.e., a group of Gargoyles is awoken in modern day Manhattan, and decide to become the city's protectors), but I think many, many things might change, especially things from later in the series.


I'd rather they continue where they left off...but, should Gargoyles ever come back, I'd say that's highly unlikely. Most likely they'd do some kind of reboot, starting again from the beginning, telling the same story (more or less).

I don't think it's completely unlikely for Gargoyles to get a reboot someday. But something I've been thinking about; they wouldn't necessarily tell the exact same story. Greg might not be involved. After all, Disney, not Greg, owns Gargoyles. They can change things around if they wish. A new animation style and new voice actors would be pretty much a given, and I can live with that. But they might nix some things that are pretty important--I imagine Season 1 would tell basically the same story, but Season 2 might see some big changes. As I recall, didn't many viewers find the World Tour really boring at the time? If Gargoyles got a reboot, the World Tour might get nixed or significantly trimmed down. Angela might never exist in a Gargoyles reboot.

I just hope that if a reboot ever happens, Greg is involved.


Here's a riddle for ya...How much criminal activity was there on New Olympus? I mean, its hard to believe that the shapeshifter Protheus was the ONLY criminal on the island, the way Helios and many other New Olympians treated Elisa, Goliath, and Angela shows that there are plenty of unfriendly people around. Okay, so maybe those angry mob guys were not true hardened criminals or anything, just bigots driven by fear and blind hatred, but obviously the potential for evil exists on New Olympus just as it does everywhere else. Also, even though Protheus was the only bad guy we saw behind bars during that episode, I doubt the New Olympian Security Forces would have so many cells and such advanced law enforcement tools & equipment if there were a small handful of baddies lurking about.

Basically, I'm just curious to know if there exists anysort of organized crime on New Olympus like in the outside world or gangs, etc, etc, or if the number of truly evil New Olympians like Protheus are always rare and few in number? Any ideas?


I don't know if this question has been asked (I'm new, so forgive me) but I was wondering...if Disney was to bring Gargoyles back, would have them do the same stories with just better animation or would you guys rather they continued where they left off? Also, is there anyway to convince disney to bring back Gargoyles again?
Angel Berrios

Patrick> You are aware that it was the US that declared war on Britain, right, not the other way around? The only thing Britain wanted out of the War of 1812 was for the US to stop trading with Napoleon. (And also for the US to stop making moves on Canada.)

The USA didn't vanish and go back to being a British colony, did it? I'd call that a win for the home team.
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Patrick> I find it interesting that you cited the final year of one war and the first year of another. In any case, the War of 1812 isn't really thought of as a victory as much as it is considered a fiasco for almost everyone concerned.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

I have some questions about the Grimorum.

Does its power lie in its pages, its binding, or both? First various pages were torn out of the Grimorum, and then the Archmage ate it to augment his power. Would his power have been noticeably greater if all of the pages had been in the Grimorum when he ate it?

Also, the Magus described the Grimorum as being as good as a map to Avalon. Since he seemed to read the "teleport to Avalon" spell out of the Grimorum, I assume that this is because some of its pages have instructions on how to reach Avalon. Why didn't the Magus just tear out and destroy those pages? He had to know that it was possible, because he had seen Hakon do it.

Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

Gabriel> 1. Disney currently has no plas to release any more episodes of <i>Gargoyles</i> on DVD. The first half of season two did not sell well enough for Disney to feel that it was worth releasing more DVDs. If you want to see the remainder of season two come out on DVD, the best thing you can do is buy the existing DVDs (if you haven''t already) and try to convince you friends to do the same.

2. There is no plan to remake <i>Gargoyles</i>. New stories did come out in comic book form from publisher Slave Labor Graphics. They are now available in three collected books. Currently, the fandom is hoping that comics publisher BOOM! Studios will pick up the license. They haven't expressed an interest in it yet, but they are publishing other Disney Afternoon licensed properties, so there is a chance they would want to do <i>Gargoyles</i> as well. If you would like to see this happen, you can contact BOOM! at their website or through Twitter at @boomstudios and let them know you would buy a <i>Gargoyles</i> comic from them.

Demonskrye - [<---Sesame Street at The Ink and Pixel Club]

Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" -Sevarius, 'Louse'


After beating England 2-0 in those wars in 1783 and 1812... you can have the soccer match. ;)

"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

7th and in name of England beating USA 2-0 (I hope) on Saturday
VickyUK - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]

I got two question
1. when all the gargoyles series be on dvd
2. are they plannig to remake gargoyles

gabriel - [gabriel_gracia at live dot com]
gabriel gracia

Numero 5
lvl_27 Cubone
Does the sky need a name? Does the river?

"The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]


First. I guess.