Comment Room Archive : Gargoyles : Station Eight

Ian> You may actually just want to go with "Gargates" if you're referencing the term at the rank of order. Greg has said before that gargoyles are gargates as we are primates and Primates, not Primatae, is the proper name of our Order. As to a Family name (which could apply to both gargoyles and beasts), you could kill two birds with one stone by using the term Gorloisidae. It references the canon-in-training Atlantean name for gargoyles and is similar to the nomenclature for several Families (including that of chimps, gorillas, orangutans, and ourselves, Hominidae). Generic and specific names remain wholly within your purview, especially since they are the most commonly referenced portion of an animal's taxonomy.

As to using "sapiens," Latin for wise, it has never been used for another species in real life. Indeed, the modern usage of the term is typically applied as "of, pertaining to, or resembling modern humans." However, if the organization is smart enough to recognize that gargoyles are not mere animals but sentient/sapient beings, using that term for their specific name would make a lot of sense (as could using "domesticus" for gargoyle beasts as is used for several house-inhabiting or domesticated animals at the specific and/or subspecific levels).

The mutates are, in a way, both easier and harder to deal with. Taxonomically, they would seem to be an abberrant form of Homo sapiens. They could perhaps be given a subspecies name of "mutatensis" or "chimericus." However, the real question is how developed their mutations are. Their physical alterations definitively show that Sevarius fully succeeded in altering their somatic cell lines. However, if their germline cells are untouched overall (as is typical of mutation beyond VERY early development), then any offspring the mutates would have, with either another mutate or a normal human, would be pretty much baseline human, thus establishing them definitively as mutated Homo sapiens rather than a new species (and thus incapable of breeding with normal humans, save perhaps a sterile hybrid). In other words, it all depends on how much work Sevarius really did and if Xanatos want a true-breeding group of gargoyle stand-ins. Talon and Maggie's kid, whatever it may be, will basically be the primary indicator as to whether or not the mutates are just altered humans or a newly-created chimeric species.

Rebel> Yeah, as I noted earlier, Latin doesn't seem to have a word for gargoyle. Of course, considering the etymological origin of the word dates to the Middle Ages (around 1250-1300), that makes sense.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:14:00 pm EDT from 174.101.249.151

If I were coming up with species name for Gargoyles, I'd probably call them something like: "Calx Victus" which basically means "stone that lives." Or I might use "Statua Sapiens" which basically means "gargoyle that thinks" (actually, to be technical, it means "statue that thinks", but Latin doesn't seem to have a word for "gargoyle").
Gargoyles Movie - [Rebel (trying to help with Google bombing)]
posted @ Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:46:25 pm EDT from 69.134.199.200

Brainiac,Algernon: Thank you both for correcting me on the probable genus difference between gargs and the beasts; I remember Greg's comment about their relationship being analogous to that of humans and chimpanzees, but sometime during the cramming on taxonomy terms, I forgot to actually apply that bit of information. Oops.

Brainiac: Thank you for the information. I'm working on incorporating what you and Algernon have told me on a first draft, and will likely take you up on your offer in the near future.

In any case, as it stands right now, here's how I'm organizing things:

Class:Mammalia [At this point, the organization in question doesn't know that gargs lay eggs, which I believe is the main thing preventing them from being classified as mammals outright]

Order: Gargatae

Family I: To be determined [This is the branch that leads down to gargoyles]

Genus A: TBD

Species 1: "Gargoyles" ( ______ ________ ) [Would using "Sapiens" as the species name play, or do humans have exclusive rights to it?]

Family II: To be determined [This branch leads down to gargoyle beasts]

Genus A: TBD

Species 1: "Gargoyle Beasts" ( ______ ________) [For the species name, I'm thinking of something playing up their behavioral similarities to dogs]

On a related note, something even higher on the "pure speculation" scale: how would one go about classifying something like the mutates? Would the fact that they were once Homo Sapiens simply be ignored?
Ian Perez - [doknowbutchie at gmail dot com]
posted @ Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:30:36 pm EDT from 173.211.177.28

MATT> That's fine, that's actually why we gave the TGC reviews their own pages on there. Originally they were the actual entries. But yeah, I tried to be informative while I was tearing it apart.

As for what Thailog is up to with these new clones: well, the new gargoyles in the Labyrinth are going to have to come from somewhere. So, they may start out as shock troops but gain freewill.
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!]
Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!
posted @ Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:33:18 pm EDT from 68.199.5.105

Hate to be the realist, but just injecting one creatures DNA into another isn't typically going to do anything but elevate the host's white blood cell count. Sevarius would have to develop another mutagenic agent.
Patrick
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:05:23 pm EDT from 173.88.135.205

With Thailog taking DNA samples from the Manhattan clan, what if he intends to inject humans with Gargoyle DNA. Sevarius tried to do that to Hunter. The question is what would that do to the humans?

Also, welcome back Matt.
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:21:44 pm EDT from 24.118.35.68

Hey, guys! My webcomic is finally up if anyone wants a gander. Please? LOL:) Yes, I'm promoting. Can't help it. I'm giddy with excitement over this project! Enjoy:)
Jade Griffin - [Shards: Grimm fairy tales are back]
"Get yer jammies, Ralph!" -Bill Maxwell (played by Robert Culp), "The Greatest American Hero" -- You sure did, sir; you sure did...
posted @ Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:00:55 pm EDT from 24.205.206.74

Thanks, guys.

Greg B> Well, as for the review on the Wiki. I guess I have various feelings on it. It is funny and informative, yes, but I've often had kinda an issue with the TGC reviews. To be honest, I feel that all information on the Wiki should be given with a neutral bent. If someone loves TGC, that is their issue and if they love TGC and are a Gargoyles fan, we shouldn't tell them that it is stupid or whatever. Give the facts and let them make their own conclusions. We can certainly say that continuity was ignored or that plot holes exist or whatever, but we shouldn't outright ridicule the TGC episodes or the people who enjoy them or the people who produced them. Also, I feel we should be open to the idea of pointing out these same sort of flaws in the canon, though obviously there are fewer. I feel we've done pretty well in that regard. We don't ignore the "two Hudsons and a Bronx" scene or Greg W's missed bets or the errors in the comics. I feel that information should be on the Wiki and for the most part is on the Wiki. What bothers me is that these sorts of errors for canon stories are handled very respectfully, usually in a section towards the end of the page. But for TGC episodes, the entire page is geared towards the exposition of the flaws. That seems unfair. Look, I don't love TGC. It had its moments, but for the most part it was a mess and I'm thrilled to have the canon comics in its place, but do we really need to take the path we have with it on the GargWiki? And why the focus on TGC. No one seems to bother much with the Marvel comics or all the other licensed stories out there that are not canon... Anyway, sorry for the rant, but you did ask. I'm not going to edit the TGC reviews on the Wiki or anything, because the Wiki is an effort on the part of all fans, not just myself. And if most fans like those reviews on the Wiki, then majority rules. As for me, I have always felt that reviews of that nature are welcome to exist. They are funny and thought provoking. But I don't feel they should exist on the Wiki site, which I feel should be honest but neutral. I feel that honest but neutral is that stance that Greg W has taken in Ask Greg in terms of non-canon Gargs stuff, and I feel that should be our example.

But of course, this is why I predominantly stick to canon stuff on the Wiki and in general.

As for the Angela clone theory... well, I can't say for sure what Thailog is up to with the new DNA samples, but I highly doubt that he would try the same thing twice. If he does produce outright clones of the Manhattan Clan, I think he will do so in a very different way then we've seen in "The Reckoning". I don't think he wants a clan, as Demona did. I think right now he wants soldiers and servants who are totally obediant... like Xanatos did/does. With that in mind, I think he will actually produce some sort of Thailog Shock Troops, clones augmented with cybernetics for control. That is just my guess, I could be way off. We just don't have the information to say at this point... But I just can't see Greg W writing or Thailog attempting the exact same thing twice.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
posted @ Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:15:02 pm EDT from 76.217.239.172

MATT> So, what did you think of the review for "Angels In the Night" I wrote for GargWiki?
Or my question about Demona and a possible Angela clone that Thailog is growing?
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!]
Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!
posted @ Sun, Aug 22, 2010 3:54:54 pm EDT from 68.199.5.105

MATT> Welcome back man!
Algernon
Make a REAL "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!
posted @ Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:42:27 am EDT from 86.40.5.28

Thanks Matt, you've been missed.
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!]
Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!
posted @ Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:12:20 am EDT from 68.199.5.105

Hello all.

Been gone a while, I know. First had major computer problems that left me without internet for nearly a week and then went on a short vacation. Just returned from the north shore of Lake Superior in Minnesota.

Anyway, I've spent the last couple hours catching up on comments in here. You guys have had some great conversations lately!

Also wanted to say Happy Belated Birthday to Greg B.
Matt - [St dot Louis, Missouri, USA]
posted @ Sat, Aug 21, 2010 11:49:51 pm EDT from 76.217.239.172

Algernon> Careful there. If you're defining "mammaries" as teats/nipples or breasts/udders, you're okay, but if we're just talking at the level of mammary glands, I think Dingo would like to take you on a tour of his homeland.

Ian> There's a reason I use Sevarius as my avatar, even if I find him ethically reprehensible. Keep in mind though, any info I give you comes from someone with a molecular and genetic background in the biological sciences, rather than from the taxonomic side of things.

Anyways, you've already shown you're aware of the standard taxonomic ranks for zoological nomenclature. Unless you want to go higher up, that should be all the biology you need. As far as knowledge of Latin goes, remember that a lot of genus and species names these days are faux-Latin, made-up names just designed to look like Latin. Besides, I don't think Latin even has an equivalent term for "gargoyle."

In any case, if you want to make a reference to the term "gargate," family is the latest you could do it (most likely the formal name Gargatae). Order and class, the two higher levels, are also possibilities (possibly better ones, though that's a debate for later) but if you and the group you're writing about aren't going that deep into biological classifications, gargates as a family should be fine (there are orders and classes known for dominance around the Permian Period that will work for them).

As far as the genus and species names for beasts and gargoyles, they should indeed all be different. After all, while we and our great ape predecessors are all in the Family Hominidae, they are not in the Genus Homo. You also shouldn't worry about creating a sparsely populated family as that happens quite a bit thanks to genetic analysis these days. Look up the pangolin on Wikipedia for a specific example (an order with just one extant family consisting of a single genus with eight species).

Anyways, that's about as brief as I can be. If you want more in-depth analysis (or you want to go higher up in the taxonomic ranks), feel free to email me.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Sat, Aug 21, 2010 11:41:50 pm EDT from 174.101.249.151

Going back to inter-clan awareness, how can we be sure that Brooklyn doesn't know of all the clans currently in existence? We know that during his time in 2198 some point was made so that he learned as little intervening history as possible, but the names of the clans that make up the Gargoyles Nation may fall more under the category of "Things you need to know to understand what is going on". He may not tell the rest of the clan this information until it becomes important, but I think the chances of him knowing roughly where the other clans are is pretty good.
mage_cat - [mage_cat14 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Aug 21, 2010 11:27:15 pm EDT from 68.222.7.209

IAN> Well I imagine that gargoyles and beasts aren't the only members of the gargate class, simply the only members to survive into the modern era. And I wouldn't necessarily class gargoyles and beasts in the same genus. according to Greg the evolutionary relationship between the two species is roughly analogous to the one between humans and chimps.
Algernon
Make a REAL "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!
posted @ Sat, Aug 21, 2010 8:43:01 pm EDT from 86.41.100.96

Algernon: I had thought about gargates' status as not-quite-mammals/not-quite-reptiles placing them higher up the hierarchy, but the fact that doing so would leave every rank from class to species effectively undivided (at least, considering the current canon) makes me somewhat uncomfortable. Is there any actual real-world precedent for that—a class composed of one order, family, and genus? The closest I can get (at least after five minutes of research) is the line that ends with the platypus, which is an example of a species that's the only member of its genus and family, in an order with only two sub-orders of one family each.

In any case, I'm not enamored with the idea of having to create an order, family, and genus for gargoyles. My biology is incomplete enough; my Latin is non-existent.

Gargoyles as aliens: The way I see it, at this point in time, the government group in question (and yes, it probably is the one you're thinking of, although I like the idea of keeping the actual name unsaid, so don't go around spoiling it :P) have observed enough about them—their lack of (apparent) proficiency with technology; their ties to the planet's solar cycle; the fact that their appearances (which according to them first conclusively occurred during the "setting the sky ablaze" part of "City of Stone"*, with the events of "Reawakening" being their first inconclusive appearance) can't be tied to the U.F.O.'s they know have entered Earth; their familiarity with both spoken and written English; their possible ties to the criminal group that destroyed the 23rd Police Precinct HQ; the lack of identifiable transmissions going to of from the planet—that they consider a possible otherworldly origin an unlikely possibility. If they are aliens, they think, they've been in the planet long enough to be considered more-or-less fully assimilated in the ecosystem, and not a present threat to the planet.

And yes, like with my previous Illuminati profiles, this one will have its share of incorrect information. ; ) It just has to be logical incorrect information.

----

* They've also concluded, for that matter, that the gargoyles were not responsible for the events that turned the population of Manhattan to stone for two nights.
Ian Perez - [doknowbutchie at gmail dot com]
posted @ Sat, Aug 21, 2010 8:23:08 pm EDT from 67.203.202.63

The talk about the government agency secret report on "Gargoyles" reminds me once again of one of the biggest things that "The Goliath Chronicles" got wrong. They treated the gargoyle situation too much as if it was a human minority group moving into the neighborhood and getting a poor welcome, instead of "Bigfoot/the Loch Ness Monster/insert-your-favorite-cryptozoological-creature-here turns out to be real".
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:49:36 pm EDT from 4.244.214.233

I believe Greg has established gargate as a Class on par with mammals and reptiles. This makes sense as gargoyles and beasts have a bunch of varying characteristics that don't really fit into any existing branch of the animal kingdom, like combining egg-laying with mammaries. I think some of the more biologically literate fans have speculated that they branched off from Mammals Like Reptiles.

Of course keep in mind, if these profiles are supposed to be written from an in universe perspective then there's no reason why the in universe writers couldn't be uninformed or making incorrect assumptions about gargoyle biology themselves. In fact, if you're talking about the same government agency I think your talking about, then it's not outside the realm of possibility for them to suspect that the gargs are actually extraterrestrials.
Algernon
Make a REAL "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!
posted @ Sat, Aug 21, 2010 6:55:51 pm EDT from 86.41.100.96

So I was thinking about the sequence of events around "City of Stone" (present day) and something occurred to me. If we assume that Demona's spell prevented any electronic equipment from recording the bespelled city, what prevents the same equipment from recording the spell's effects on the second night, after Xanatos had stopped the broadcast? More importantly, if a person who was not present in Manhattan during the duration of Demona's broadcast arrives to the city after Xanatos has stopped it, what's to stop him/her/it from witnessing (and possibly recording) the city of stone? I know Greg has explained what probably happens to people who enter the city while Demona's spell was still broadcasting but were not turned to stone during the first night, but (as far as I could see) nothing on the other case.

On a different topic entirely, I'm writing up a profile on gargoyles written from the point of view of a black-ops government organization who has only had a chance to observe them from afar (the profile is written sometime between 1996 and 1998, when Gargoyles were still wary about interacting with anyone outside a trusted circle), and I would like some suggestions regarding the biology, since it's never been my best subject. When talking about gargates, are we referring to a family or a genus, or even something in the intermediate rankings (subfamily, tribe, etc.)?

On that note, I'd would really love some suggestions for scientific names for the gargoyle and gargoyle beast species, or, if suggestions in that direction have already been given elsewhere, hints on where to look. Thank you!
Ian Perez - [doknowbutchie at gmail dot com]
posted @ Sat, Aug 21, 2010 6:14:32 pm EDT from 67.203.202.63

D'oh. I meant those names the other way round, obviously.
Supermorff
posted @ Sat, Aug 21, 2010 4:22:53 pm EDT from 86.151.46.63

Algernon> Are you suggesting that the Mayan and London representatives might be Griff and Obsidiana then?
Supermorff
posted @ Sat, Aug 21, 2010 4:22:19 pm EDT from 86.151.46.63

Demonskrye- I agree with you. Although we don't know which 4 clans will come together, I would think that three of them would be the Manhattan, Ishimura, and London clans. The fourth one could also be the Xanadu clan because of Brooklyn's timedancing adventures. The Manhattan clan would be at least aware of a clan in China at one point, but discovering the modern one would be an interesting adventure. Maybe Macbeth can help them with that.

But it brings up an interesting note to which clan is the last to be discovered by other clans? I would think that the Pukhan clan may be the last one found. The only reason I say that is because that is the only clan's location that has not been visited by anyone in Gargoyles yet.
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Aug 21, 2010 3:40:27 pm EDT from 24.118.35.68

DEMONSKRYE> I'd definitely say the Mayan and London Clans will be involved as most of the post '96 "This Day in Gargoyles History" dates relate to that year's Gathering and it's guests.

http://gargoyles.dracandros.com/Gathering_of_the_Gargoyles#2001
Algernon
Make a REAL "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!
posted @ Sat, Aug 21, 2010 3:26:20 pm EDT from 86.41.97.197

Demonskrye- What about the Avalon clan? Maybe it was Oberon or Titania who brought the four clans together.
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Sat, Aug 21, 2010 3:23:28 pm EDT from 69.54.208.57

Incisivis> According to This Day in Gargoyles Universe History, "a crisis brings together representatives of four clans" in 2001. So even that early on, some of the clans are at least capable of some communication if they can organize this kind of a meeting.

I'm guessing the clans involved are Manhattan, Labyrinth, London, and Ishimura. The Mayan Clan is a possibility, though I don't know if they have enough tech access to be informed of what's going on in a timely manner. The rest are probably still too isolated and possibly unknown to the other clans.
Demonskrye - [<---Is Anime Special at The Ink and Pixel Club]
posted @ Sat, Aug 21, 2010 3:09:32 pm EDT from 146.115.115.75

Hmmm...I know enough biology to realize that a species with both estrus and sexual expression outside of it is highly implausible, which is what Greg has established gargoyles as having.

To me it's only a minor bit of authorial fudging that makes some sense: sex is also useful for forging social bonds, so for a sapient species like gargoyles to be able to mate for pleasure seems sensible to me.

I agree with Demonskyre that gargoyles should have a range of reactions to homosexual gargoyles, including some disapproval, but the question of other gargs' disapproval opens up a larger can of worms: namely, how would the other clans *know* about Lex and Goliath's particular situations?

We can assume that in later decades, gargoyles have more access to human communication and transportation methods and use them; the attempt at creating the Liberty Clan is proof of that. But I don't see the issue of other clans' disapproval coming up immediately for the Manhattan clan of the 1990s or even much of the 2000s, given that there doesn't seem to be much inter-clan communication then.

However, the London Clan might have a larger degree of technological access than most clans in the Gargoyles present day, and Ishimura's level is also open to interpretation. Still, I can't see either of them hopping on a plane to visit other clans yet.

Basically, the question of other gargoyles' disapproval of Lexington being gay or Goliath in an interspecies relationship also raises the question of how/when other gargoyles will know of this, and how/when they will be able to communicate their disapproval.

Thoughts?
Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even dragonflies and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream."--Shirley Jackson
posted @ Sat, Aug 21, 2010 2:16:19 pm EDT from 96.52.144.179

Lexington> Just to clarify my position, I do not think that Lex should be forced into fathering eggs. What I do think is that some gargoyles - probably not the Manhattan clan - should suggest that Lex is being selfish by not fathering eggs, not because I agree with that argument, but because I think it would be extremely dull if all gargoyles the world over are perfectly fine with Lez's sexuality. It's less a valid argument than a cover for the intolerance of the individual using that argument. I could easily see the exact same argument thrown at Goliath, who I fully expect to get so grief from gargoyles of other clan for having a relationship with a human.

Gargoyles In Heat> The impression that I got from Lex and Coco's conversation was that gargoyles have a very hard time abstaining when the female of the pair is in heat. It would be very beneficial to the survival of a monogamous species that only reproduces three times per individual lifetime if mating was all but irresistible while the female was fertile, especially in the days when gargoyles had no clue about their own biology and how many shots at reproducing they had. Plus, Coco specifies that the isolation takes place during the female's final heat. Those are going to be mature gargoyle couples who would be able to understand the necessity of abstaining for a time in order to keep the clan's population from exceeding what Knight's Spur can support. So it seems that there would be no reason to mandate forced separation, unless they gargoyles can't help themselves.

The whole thing struck me as something that the fanfic authors who enjoy delving into gargoyle sexuality would find very appealing.
Demonskrye - [<---Is Anime Special at The Ink and Pixel Club]
posted @ Sat, Aug 21, 2010 1:49:12 pm EDT from 146.115.115.75

Hasn't Greg also suggested that mated Gargoyles do some sort of "imprinting" thing when they become mates? This suggests to me that the pair bond between a pair of Gargoyles is probably even stronger than the pair bonds humans experience, which makes it seem to me that it'd be even less likely that a Gargoyle could be persuaded to mate with someone else during mating season.

Do you guys thing Greg would be willing to answer questions about the specifics of Gargoyle mating season, specifically what behavioral changes occur around this time? I know he tends not to answer questions that are spoiler-ish in nature but he's been more responsive to questions of a general biological nature.

I guess what I really want to know is, "Who goes crazy?" My assumption has been that the female Gargoyles do, and thus being a mated male Gargoyle during mating season is both extremely fun and terrifying.
Gargoyles Movie - [Rebel (trying to help with Google bombing)]
posted @ Sat, Aug 21, 2010 12:57:48 pm EDT from 69.134.199.200

Forget peer pressure to breed, there could be much worse things. If gargoyles aren't considered by humans to be anything more than animals, what's to stop some misguided and well-intentioned scientists from deciding they're an endangered species that needs to be bred in captivity to save them, just like the California condor?
Patrick
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Sat, Aug 21, 2010 12:52:19 pm EDT from 173.88.135.205

Masterdramon> I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with you strongly. At least one gender will definitely go into some sort of mating frenzy, or [SPOILER] Lexington wouldn't have said "Yikes!" and Coco wouldn't have responded with a "Tell me about it". [/SPOILER] SOMETHING must occur during that time that would be downright SCARY for Lex to make those comments.
Sir_Griff723@yahoo.com - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
"Authority should derive from the consent of the governed, not by the threat of force" Barbie in Toy Story 3--The only version of the character that I respect.
posted @ Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:46:23 am EDT from 96.35.210.85

Rebel- That is an extremely interesting point. Reminds me of stories my Grandfather used to tell me. He was a farmer, and he said when the cows were in heat, you best stay out of the bulls way. It could be a similar thing with Gargoyles. Might be worth asking Greg about.

Also, has Greg ever specified if the Pukhan, Loch Ness, or New Olympian clans have beasts?
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:41:53 am EDT from 24.118.35.68

Females of a species that has heats (as opposed to menstrual cycles) theoretically wouldn't have a 'sex drive' at all unless they were actually in heat. And the sex drive in such species would have to be pretty strong as an evolutionary factor, to ensure that females don't let any of their heats pass unnoticed.

So while I tend to agree with you, it's going to be that much more difficult to control when you're suddenly struck with a strong sexual instinct to mate and haven't (for the last 20 years) had any experience in coping with or denying such an instinct.

Don't suppose anyone here saw the TV series Dark Angel? I have only hazy memories of it, but the main character had feline DNA and enterred an estrus phase a couple of times in the series, which forced her to either have sex with someone (anyone) or, well, isolate herself.
Supermorff
posted @ Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:36:00 am EDT from 86.151.46.63

I honestly don't believe that the average female gargoyle in heat is all that much more out-of-control than the average female human. The enforced separation strikes me as more of a "better safe than sorry" type of precaution; would you honestly trust even a horny human couple not to copulate if you left them together in privacy? The sex drive doesn't have to turn one into a crazy beast in order for it to overwhelm one's better judgment.
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss!" - Roger Daltrey of The Who
posted @ Sat, Aug 21, 2010 6:53:05 am EDT from 72.130.246.18

Rebel> Fun fact (courtesy of Wikipedia): the technical term for 'heat' is 'estrus', which comes from a Greek word literally meaning 'gadfly', but used by writers like Euripides, Homer and Plato to mean 'frenzy', 'madness', 'panic', and 'irrational drive'.
Supermorff
posted @ Sat, Aug 21, 2010 6:06:12 am EDT from 86.151.46.63

I'm gay. And speaking for myself, if the human race's population were ever so low that we were in real danger of dying out, and there was a man around, I'd probably be willing to "take one for the team" so to speak and have sex with him in the hopes of getting pregnant and hopefully contributing a few children to the population. But if I was ever in this position, I'd really like to be drunk.

The idea of compromising who I am in this way makes my skin crawl, but when I hold that up next to the possibility of my species dying out when I have a chance to help save it...compromising myself suddenly doesn't seem so bad. If it meant humanity might live on as opposed to dying out, it would be worth it to me.

Now--having said all that--if for whatever reason I decided *not* to contribute to the population, but yet someone tried to *force* me to, well by golly GOOD LUCK WITH THAT BUDDY. If I was willing to make that compromise of my own free will, that's one thing, but if someone tried to force it upon me, that's another thing entirely.

Just thought I'd share, that, though none of that is really relevant here, because I'm not a gargoyle.

One thing we've overlooked in this discussion, guys--do we even know for sure if Gargoyles are *capable* of breeding with someone besides their mate during the female's final heat? The reason I ask this is because of an exchange that happened in the Stone of Destiny story. Lex is asking Coco and Amp how the London Clan manages to keep its numbers manageable, and the response he receives is:

"Enforced isolation during the female's final heat."
...to which Lex responds:
"Yikes."

Alas, we receive no more elaboration than that. It isn't even made completely clear who is being isolated--is the male the one being isolated? Is the female the one being isolated? Are they both being isolated from each other? I've always assumed that the dialog is suggesting that the females get isolated during their final heat, but either way, the implication is the same--the mere fact that a mated pair of Gargoyles have to be isolated from one another during the female's final heat suggests to me that perhaps Gargoyles aren't exactly their normal selves during this time. A pair of humans with too many children can choose to refrain from having vaginal sex anymore (at least not without protection of some kind). Gargoyles are sentient beings, so why is it necessary that any kind of isolation measures be put in place to keep them from mating?

The answer, I believe, is that maybe Gargoyles sorta lose control during their mating season. Maybe not ALL gargoyles--probably just the females, or maybe just the males. Like I said, I'm assuming it's the females. My interpretation is that female gargoyles go a little bit berserk when they are in heat, and have to be forcibly kept away from their mates in order to keep them from reproducing. So, even if someone *wanted* to get two lesbian gargoyles to mate with two male gargoyles when they were in heat, I think it'd be a waste of time. I think they'd be too busy tearing each other's clothes off, and I think if you tried to force them apart or force them to mate with a male, you'd face serious injury (and that's if you're lucky...).
Gargoyles Movie - [Rebel (trying to help with Google bombing)]
posted @ Sat, Aug 21, 2010 1:41:33 am EDT from 69.134.199.200

Greg: Here's another one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQBLTB5f3j0&NR=1
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Luke, you can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this. It is your destiny." -Darth Vader not being a pussy.
posted @ Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:37:32 pm EDT from 76.27.173.29

My bad, that first link has no sound.

Here's the correct link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=iv&v=g81PoGKO0qA&annotation_id=annotation_966048
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!]
Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!
posted @ Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:18:34 pm EDT from 68.199.5.105

I had a post in the works, but I think I'll leave these YouTube links instead:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv4Potdpjhw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPzDjaA03ts
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!]
Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!
posted @ Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:15:01 pm EDT from 68.199.5.105

Adam: The point behind what I wrote on Livejournal is that Anakin was a dumbass. The fact that he knew that Palpatine was a Sith Lord proves that.

But since you clearly don't want to find any fault in your boyfriend, George Lucas, I'm going to stop trying to convince you of the gaping holes in the movie's plot.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Luke, you can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this. It is your destiny." -Darth Vader not being a pussy.
posted @ Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:12:34 pm EDT from 76.27.173.29

No offense Harvester, but you will lose this. Here is how it goes. Kenobi is sent to take out Grievous. After that battle begins, the Jedi tell Anakin to take that knowlegde to Palpatine. When Anakin is out of earshot, the jedi comment that Palpatine may need to be removed from power. Anakin meets with Palpatine and is tempted by him. Kenobi defeats Grievous. After that, Mace and the jedi are leaving the Jedi temple to make sure Palpatine gives up his emergency power. Anakin finds them before he leaves and reviels to them that Palpatine is a sith lord. They order Anakin to remain behind and they leave to confront Palpatine. The rest as they say, is history.
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:08:17 pm EDT from 24.118.35.68

Adam: Did we even watch the same movie? I'm pretty sure Anakin told Mace Windu what he had discovered, so Windu and his escort went to Palpatine's office with that knowledge.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Luke, you can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this. It is your destiny." -Darth Vader not being a pussy.
posted @ Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:55:17 pm EDT from 76.27.173.29

No. Earlier in the movie, they said that if Palpatine did not return his emergency powers back to the senate with the destruction of General Grievous that he should be removed from power. It happened before Palpatine revieled that he was a sith to Anakin.
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:44:21 pm EDT from 24.118.35.68

Adam: No, they were going to arrest him because he was the Sith Lord that had been engineering the war and playing the Jedi and the Senate for fools for the last several YEARS.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Luke, you can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this. It is your destiny." -Darth Vader not being a pussy.
posted @ Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:30:02 pm EDT from 76.27.173.29

Looking at the Star Wars from just the prequels is like looking at Gargoyles from just TGC. Fortuanatly, my spectrum of Star Wars includes the entire bredth and width of the Expanded universe. Dozens of novels and comics contribute to all that is Star Wars (of course George tends to ingnore that, but that is not the point). Actually, my favorite Star Wars villian was the first from the EU, Grand Admiral Thrawn. Much more civilized than any villian in Star Wars. Almost Xanatos esc.

Harvester of Eyes- Good piece. However, I will point out that technically, the Jedi were going to over through Palpatine. They were going to remove him from power if he did not give back his emergency power. From a certain point of view.
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:25:22 pm EDT from 24.118.35.68

Adam> Thing is, that the whole reproduction arugment is perhaps the weakest argument in that regard. I mean if a heterosexual man/woman, choose not to have children, and even go as far as having a vasectomy to prevent child birth/conception, is anyone going to object or protest to that?

Hell no. So why should homosexuals be obligated to help contribute to the population count?

Not targeting you, it's just that I see this particular argument thrown around constantly.
Antiyonder
posted @ Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:23:43 pm EDT from 96.239.207.177

Gargoyles aren't pandas or tigers. They're capable of feeling everything that humans do, so I can't imagine them trying to force any of their kind to breed simply to produce an egg. Remember that they're also bigamous in their relationships with one another, perhaps moreso than humans. They aren't livestock.

Bishansky gave a better example than me, but something else that comes into my mind regarding forcing someone else to breed is the Star Trek episode "The Menagerie." Those humans didn't take kindly to being treated as livstock.

Masterdramon: One of the reasons that "Empire Strikes Back" was the best movie in the saga is actually because George Lucas was just executive producer on it. Someone else wrote the screenplay and someone else directed the actors (a director who actually has experience in doing so). In fact, it's amusing. In the commentary for "Empire," Kirshner can barely contain his excitement when he's watching the scene where the Rebels are preparing for the Battle of Hoth. He's more excited about that than he is about the actual battle. That right there shows a marked difference between his style and George Lucas's: he's a man who actually likes character moments instead of explosions.

Adam: Here, you might find this interesting reading: http://me-262.livejournal.com/150430.html

When you get down to it, the best villain in the Star Wars saga was Grand Moff Tarkin. Not only did Vader take orders from him, but he also succeeded in being more chilling than the Emperor.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Luke, you can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this. It is your destiny." -Darth Vader not being a pussy.
posted @ Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:44:41 pm EDT from 76.27.173.29

I'd say that the fact that Darth Vader being Luke's father was not planned from the beginning can be fairly easily gleamed from Obi-Wan telling him in the first film that Vader "betrayed and killed" Anakin Skywalker. His Force Ghost tries to equivocate this in the third film by saying that it is true "from a certain point of view," but I think that most people can tell that this is, at best, a fairly weak "covering our asses" moment. At worst, it's an insult to the audience's intelligence (not that isn't a fairly good way to describe "Return of the Jedi" as a whole).

Now, I'm not quite as harsh on Lucas as you are, Greg; I genuinely do love Episodes IV and V, and I find it difficult to believe that he couldn't have possessed some modicum of talent when creating those. His problem, of course, is his short attention span - the prospect of "ooh, shiney!" grabbed him so thoroughly that he forgot about the importance of little things like plot and character.
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss!" - Roger Daltrey of The Who
posted @ Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:08:30 pm EDT from 72.130.246.18

Hmmm, I don't want to link to a .mov file. Do you think anyone would mind if we uploaded the Mecha-Nation trailer to YouTube?
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]
posted @ Fri, Aug 20, 2010 7:40:47 pm EDT from 128.101.32.234

TODD> <<If I understand you correctly - the "I am your father" moment wasn't originally planned for the "Star Wars" movies? (I don't know that much about the behind-the-scenes making of it.)>>

Yup, when "Empire" came out, Lucas credited the idea to Leigh Brackett, who wrote a draft of the screenplay. He said this in an interview he did for, I think it's Starlog.

Of course, since then he started saying it was always his plan. That he had this all mapped out from the beginning. Leigh Brackett died in 1978, shortly after finishing her draft of the script, and is not around to contradict him.

Kind of ghoulish, if you ask me.
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!]
Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!
posted @ Fri, Aug 20, 2010 7:29:47 pm EDT from 68.199.5.105

DEMONSKRYE - Actually, I'd say just about everything "Xanatos" did in "Future Tense" wasn't his style (except a few quips), but that's all I'll say about it for now (I'm saving that subject for next week).

ALGERNON - Well, some of those six billion humans. I've said this before, but I think it's worth pointing out that while a lot of humans are scared of gargoyles, the ones who actually go out to try to kill them are a much smaller fraction of that number. Most of the humans afraid of gargoyles seem to prefer running away from them or shunning them.

BISHANSKY - If I understand you correctly - the "I am your father" moment wasn't originally planned for the "Star Wars" movies? (I don't know that much about the behind-the-scenes making of it.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Aug 20, 2010 7:23:05 pm EDT from 4.244.213.168

This is a family that consider a robot zombie joining their ranks a positive.

I...I just seriously don't think they care about the species surviving as much as they care about just living as a family. All the offspring in the world wouldn't matter if they lost one of the things that made them gargates in order to achieve it.
Harlan Phoenix - [harlanphoenix at live dot com]
posted @ Fri, Aug 20, 2010 6:40:31 pm EDT from 216.96.91.17

GREG X> Not to mention that such measures would be pretty pointless in the long term. The very fact that the London Clan has to practice clan wide birth control shows that low birth rate isn't the main threat to gargoyle survival. The garg's real problem is the six billion hairless apes that keep trying to kill them all for some reason.

And considering that gargoyles are genetically hardwired for life long monogamy (unlike humans for whom monogamy is at best an ideal), I really think most gargs would find the idea of mating with someone they didn't love an utterly alien and potentially disturbing concept.

And ffor those of you still advocating such an approach I have one simple question, how would you feel if the government ordered you to have sex against your wishes?
Algernon
Make a REAL "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!
posted @ Fri, Aug 20, 2010 5:46:04 pm EDT from 86.40.246.55

ADAM> What I am saying is that both characters are following a fall from grace (both being their own fault), many years of villainy, and then eventual redemption.

Darth Vader's was really badly done. Mostly because George Lucas is a talentless hack who cannot write, or direct and only cares about how much crap his computer can do before melting down. Everything was so contrived, and so obviously made up as it went along. Even the "No, I am your father" moment was contrived... because it wasn't intended to happen.

Demona on the other hand, all these things are done right. They feel natural, they make sense. They are far more tragic. And she is a far better villain.

It also helps that Demona was created and written by people who cared about telling a great story with logical character development. Not about "oh, how many kewl things can I do with a computer."

Is it obvious I am not a fan of "Star Wars" (yes, I like the first two, but I never drooled over them).

ADAM> <<I am not talking about forcing gay/lesbian couples to do anything they don't want to do. But for the sake of there race, mating just three times over the course of 40 years would seem a small sacrifice to me.>>

No, it is fascist, and it is evil. I think you need to stop and think about the full implications of what you are saying. They aren't cattle!

In "Babylon 5" which is good science fiction (something the aforementioned Mr. Lucas would know nothing about), there is an organization run by telepaths to control telepaths (supposedly to protect normals), who do the very things you're suggesting gargoyles do. And it is not a good thing.
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!]
Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!
posted @ Fri, Aug 20, 2010 5:12:31 pm EDT from 68.199.5.105

Brooklyn's Third Child> Personally, I don't think that gargoyles - particularly those living in modern times - are completely oblivious to the idea of biological offspring. They just aren't culturally conditioned to consider it important in determining how they form relationships. I might become aware that I share a birthday with somebody else or was born in the same hospital as that person, but I'm just going to consider that an interesting little fact, not something that influences how I treat that person. While meeting his grown son or daughter might not be as strange for Brooklyn as it would for a human, it might clue him in to the fact that he will eventually get home. Additionally, any Manhattan Clan gargoyles from that generation would be Brooklyn's rookery children (assuming he doesn't die before they hatch), which would likely complicate Brooklyn's desire not to know about his own future.

Speaking of which, I'm kind of partial to the idea that something happens that makes Brooklyn decide that he will take precautions to try to avoid learning about his own future, Maybe he learns something, like some details about Goliath's death, and the realization that he now knows how Goliath dies but won't be able to do anything to stop it disturbs him so much that he decides he's better off not knowing anything else. I know he's already figured out that it's best not to tell other people he encounters about future events, but learning his own fate and that of his clan would probably be a little more tempting.

Gay and Lesbian Gargoyles> While I don't think Goliath would suggest that Lexington ought to breed for the good of the clan, I'd actually kind of like to see some gargoyles outside of the clan bring it up. I really dislike the idea of the whole gargoyle species being naturally devoid of most faults we see in humans except for a few "bad apples" like Demona. And Greg has opened the door for gargoyles being less than thrilled about homosexual parings, at least back in the 10th century. So I would like to see some gargoyles take issue with Lexington's sexuality and possibly bring up the argument that he should at least father some eggs for the good of the species, even if it wouldn't practically make much difference.

Clones and "Future Tense"> When I suggested that Hollywood might be subjected to experimentation sometime in the future, I didn't quite remember how Broadway ended up the way he did in 'Future Tense" correctly. I knew it involved Sevarius, but it;s never entirely clear whether Sevarius captured Broadway and turned him into the gargoyle we saw in Goliath's magically induced nightmare or if he was horribly injured during battle and the remaining members of the Manhattan Clan patched him up as best they could. Either way, I would not be at all surprised if Hollywood at least ends up blind at some point.

A big showdown between Burbank and Coyote (the robot one) that ended with Burbank's death wouldn't shock me either, though I also wouldn't be surprised if this was a case where Hudson actually plays out his "Future Tense" role. But I can't see why the real Xanatos would get into a duel to the death with either gargoyle. Not his style.
Demonskrye - [<---Is Anime Special at The Ink and Pixel Club]
posted @ Fri, Aug 20, 2010 12:28:39 pm EDT from 146.115.115.75

Greg's last day at Sony was January 29, 2009: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=809 So it was actually 1-2 months before he had another full-time job. I guess the lesson is you can't keep Greg waiting for a pickup for too long before he'll be snatched up.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]
posted @ Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:56:56 am EDT from 216.250.163.157

Another Greg/Vietti interview on Young Justice: http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/SuperHeroTooniverse/news/?a=21712 This one goes deeper into the characters and story. I find it interesting that Greg has been working on Young Justice since March 2009. That's three months after Greg left Sony and the same month as the season 1 premiere of Spectacular Spider-Man on Disney XD. TSSM wasn't "officially" dead until the Ultimate Spider-Man announcement in April 2010. Presumably the greenlight for Young Justice came somewhere in between.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]
posted @ Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:49:35 am EDT from 216.250.163.157

I am not talking about forcing gay/lesbian couples to do anything they don't want to do. But for the sake of there race, mating just three times over the course of 40 years would seem a small sacrifice to me.

Demona/Vader- Although there goals may seem similar, remember that Vader isn't out to destroy any particular race. They both want to turn there children to there side, but the only people Vader wants to exterminate are the Jedi. He is about domination and intimidation.
Here are there goals.
Demona- 1. Turn Angela to her side, 2. Destroy the human race, 3. rule the Gargoyles.
Vader- 1. Turn Luke to his side, 2. Overthough the Emperor and rule the galaxy, 3. Detroy all resistance.

I also think that Demona is a very different villian than seen anywhere else in history or fiction. Vader is more like Hitler. Destroy one particular people(Jedi or Jews) and rule over everyone else. Actually, I take that back. In the Ultimate Marvel universe, Magneto wanted to destroy all humans on earth so mutants could rule.
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:57:41 am EDT from 170.112.1.251

DEMONSKRYE - Whoa, I can't believe I forgot about Broadway's blinding when wondering "Why Hollywood, specifically?" And, yes, since some of the other Clone developments we've seen (Brentwood's defection, Delilah and Malibu as apparently a couple) do reflect "Future Tense", it's a good point.

I had a small but gratifying experience this morning. I'm on a mailing list which reads and discusses books about King Arthur; this summer, we've been discussing Geoffrey of Monmouth. One of the people on the list was trying to work out the chronology of Arthur's reign as it appears in Geoffrey, with the one specific date Geoffrey gives in it being Arthur taken away to Avalon in 542. I commented in the process about that date appearing in the "Gargoyles" treatment of Arthur, though without naming the show, just describing it as:

an animated adventure series for Disney, later on continued as a (sadly short-lived) comic book, which, included, among other things, King Arthur awakening in the modern world. [It] dated the Battle of Camlann and Arthur's departure for Avalon to 542, as in Geoffrey of Monmouth, but had him become king in 500. Arthur mentions the former date while having coffee in modern-day London with Macbeth, who'd survived into modern times thanks to a part of the deal with the three Witches that Shakespeare didn't mention - though this Macbeth is a more honorable figure than his Shakespearean counterpart.)"

I made that post last evening. When I woke up this morning and checked my e-mail, I found this reply from one of the other list-members: "Many of us still miss Disney's Gargoyles!" I was delighted that someone immediately recognized the series without even the name.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Aug 20, 2010 7:20:01 am EDT from 4.244.208.113

Count me in as another person who is fairly horrified by the idea of a gay/lesbian gargoyle being forced to betray who they are for something as petty as a single egg. As "Reawakening" should have taught us (and as Ian's excellent summary reminded me), survival is not, and should not, be enough for any sentient species. There are more important things in life...and being in control of one's own fundamental sexuality strikes me as one of them.

Greg X: Wow, you're really trotting out this "Demona is...Darth Vader done right" thing for full effect, LOL. It even got multi-media treatment - this Comment Room, your YouTube Channel, and even your oft-neglected blog. XD

I assume that it was brought on by your AskGreg question regarding "Gargoyles" being, in many ways, Demona's story...which even at the time I could not help but to compare to many fans' claims that the six Star Wars films are overall centrally Anakin's story, covering his ascendence, his downfall, and ultimately his redemption.

...Of course, as your new little mini-meme implies, only the post-downfall years were by any stretch of the imagination "done right;" the redemption was underwhelming in virtually every respect and the ascendence was, well, portrayed by Hayden Christensen.

Need I say more? XP
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss!" - Roger Daltrey of The Who
posted @ Fri, Aug 20, 2010 6:39:40 am EDT from 72.130.246.18

If Goliath is totally cool with inducting a robot and mechanically sustained, living dead rock into the clan, I really don't think butt buddies are gonna be a problem.
Harlan Phoenix - [harlanphoenix at live dot com]
posted @ Fri, Aug 20, 2010 2:43:39 am EDT from 216.96.91.17

And even if there were two gay gargoyles and two lesbian gargoyles in the clan, I don't think Goliath is the type of fascist who would force them to do anything like that. Actually, Goliath is not any type of fascist.

I always found some fans' thoughts that Lex or any other homosexual gargoyles being forced to breed to be somewhat creepy, if not downright evil.

If anything this all reminds me of "Babylon 5" when the Psi Corps were forcing telepaths to breed and raping the ones who wouldn't.
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!]
Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!
posted @ Fri, Aug 20, 2010 12:13:42 am EDT from 68.199.5.105

Gregx> I'm all for it: I'm indifferent to Vader, but Demona is awesome!

Adam> Okay, but *where* exactly do they get these elusive lesbian gargoyles? Inter-clan travel isn't quite that easy at that point in the storyline, and who's to say Amp would even go to Manhattan with Lex, or that Amp is The One?
Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even dragonflies and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream."--Shirley Jackson
posted @ Fri, Aug 20, 2010 12:01:08 am EDT from 96.52.144.179

ADAM> All of them?
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!]
Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!
posted @ Thu, Aug 19, 2010 11:56:50 pm EDT from 68.199.5.105

Greg B- Which Darth Vader are we talking about? Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back or Revenge of the Sith.

Also, if the Manhattan clan, with a potential gay couple in Lexington and Staghart, were to recruit a lesbian couple, I would think that with their small numbers I would think that two additional eggs in a few rookeries would make a difference.
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Thu, Aug 19, 2010 11:33:30 pm EDT from 24.118.35.68

On another note, what do you all think of this?

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs197.ash2/46023_454543653614_687183614_6221946_5329010_n.jpg

The nerd gods shall punish me for my hubris!

;)

It is true.
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!]
Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!
posted @ Thu, Aug 19, 2010 11:17:57 pm EDT from 68.199.5.105

ADAM> Probably not. As Greg once said, if the situation is that desperate, one egg is not going to make a difference.
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!]
Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!
posted @ Thu, Aug 19, 2010 11:15:58 pm EDT from 68.199.5.105

Greg B- Agreed. However, one of the first things that Angela notices about Coldstone is that he is Gabriel's biological father. But I think that has more to do with her personally than anything else.

On another subject, with there being gay and lesbian Gargoyles, this got me thinking(usually very dangerous, but that is another topic). If there were both a gay and lesbian couple within a clan, would they consider mating with each other during the females heat to produce a egg.
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Thu, Aug 19, 2010 11:12:31 pm EDT from 24.118.35.68

ADAM> I don't think they're even conditioned to notice.

Humans are different, Elisa noticed Angela right away.
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!]
Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!
posted @ Thu, Aug 19, 2010 10:53:14 pm EDT from 68.199.5.105

Happy Birthday, Greg and Karine!
Battle Beast - [Canada]
I have started a movie challenge whereby I am wtching all 475 Best Picture nominees and winners in 365 days. I am on Day #159 and movie #189... wish me luck!
posted @ Thu, Aug 19, 2010 10:36:58 pm EDT from 198.161.203.6

One thing that I have always been curious about is whether Gargoyles are aware of there biological offspring. I know children are raised by the whole clan, but for some, there must have been some realization that a particular child was there biological offspring. Not that they would care, but I am sure some must have noticed. Especially when we see Angela and Lunette when we know who there biological parents are. And I would think any clans with close humans allies would also notice, just like Elisa did (although because she was not familiar with Gargoyle customs it might have ment more to her). Other human allies who are more familiar with Gargoyles and there family ties, might be more like the Gargoyles: they notice but don't care.
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Thu, Aug 19, 2010 10:10:04 pm EDT from 24.118.35.68

Adam > True, there's definitely all kinds of things that could kill Brooklyn's 3rd kid before 2198, old age among them. But Demonskrye was just pointing out that he/she *could* still be alive. Tachi could still be alive too, although it's unlikely, as she'd be 100, biologically.

I think it would be neat if 2198 had an elderly gargoyle as a minor character who looked suspiciously similar to Brooklyn and Katana. If such a character was in 2198, I doubt his or her biological parentage would be spelled out in the comics (the most we might get would be the character saying that Brooklyn was one of his rookery fathers from the past), but I imagine there'd be a lot of speculation here in the comment room.
Gargoyles Movie - [Rebel (trying to help with Google bombing)]
posted @ Thu, Aug 19, 2010 9:35:31 pm EDT from 69.134.199.200

Demonskrye- If Brooklyn and Katana had a third child, that child would be 180/90 years old. We don't know the life expentancy of Gargoyles in the modern world. Old Pog is quite possible the oldest Gargoyle alive. It is also possible that there would have been casualties during the Space-Spawn invasion of Earth. And any conflicts between 2018 and 2198 could kill a Gargoyle.
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Thu, Aug 19, 2010 9:19:43 pm EDT from 24.118.35.68

Demonskrye: If that's the case, then that's not particularly good news for Burbank. XD
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss!" - Roger Daltrey of The Who
posted @ Thu, Aug 19, 2010 9:17:57 pm EDT from 72.130.246.18

<<which would put Brooklyn in the very strange position of encountering his own biological offspring>>

Quit thinking like a human!

;)
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!]
Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!
posted @ Thu, Aug 19, 2010 9:01:48 pm EDT from 68.199.5.105

Adam> I'm not 100% certain, but part of the issue Greg may be having with deciding whether or not Katana and Brooklyn will have a third child might be that the child could theoretically still be alive by 2198, which would put Brooklyn in the very strange position of encountering his own biological offspring. There are ways Greg could prevent this from happening, but it might be a concern.

Supermorff> Thanks for pointing that out. I can't remember if I knew Brooklyn was going to make a return trip to the future and just forgot about it or never knew that. I'd like to think that Brooklyn's return trip allows him to see the outcome of Earth's war with the Space-Spawn, though I would have to think that there's more purpose to his return trip than that.

I've long hoped that Brooklyn actually does make two trips to feudal Japan as is suggested in what may be some incorrect wording in the FAQ. If Katana initially joins Brooklyn in his time travels by accident and the most tempestuous days of their relationship happen while they've hopping through time, a return trip to Katana's home time and country would give her the opportunity to make a choice between returning to her clan or staying with Brooklyn.

Todd> Well Hollywood is Broadway's clone and the clones' lives seem to be roughly following the fictional futures of the Manhattan Clan from "Future Tense" and something like Broadway's state in "Future Tense" could be explained by extreme experimentation. That's what I was thinking, anyway.
Demonskrye - [<---Is Anime Special at The Ink and Pixel Club]
posted @ Thu, Aug 19, 2010 8:56:06 pm EDT from 146.115.115.75

REBEL> In which case, until hatching time, we wouldn't know if it was Brooklyn and Katana's third egg or Artus.
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!]
Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!
posted @ Thu, Aug 19, 2010 8:33:53 pm EDT from 68.199.5.105

If Sevarius does get his paws on a Gargoyle egg from the Manhattan clan, I'm guessing it would be Brooklyn and Katana's 3rd egg, rather than "Eggwardo".
Gargoyles Movie - [Rebel (trying to help with Google bombing)]
posted @ Thu, Aug 19, 2010 8:09:14 pm EDT from 69.134.199.200

Well, I posted my opinion as to who the most likely current member of the Manhattan Clan to be "experimented upon" is, particularly if the experimenter is Sevarius: Egwardo.

Having an unhatched gargoyle egg is his possession has got to be a nigh-orgasmic prospect for someone of Anton's...proclivities. In addition to presenting an unprotesting specimen for whatever other experiments might pop into his head, hatching and raising Taichi would be an ideal way for him to study the gargoyle life cycle and provide some of the world's first biological literature on the subject.

Of course, were Sevarius to actually try this, the cause-of-death odds on his life would shift significantly toward "katana through the heart."
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss!" - Roger Daltrey of The Who
posted @ Thu, Aug 19, 2010 8:01:08 pm EDT from 72.130.246.18

DEMONSKRYE - Thanks for your comments on Greg's "Gargoyles 2198" description. Any particular reason why you mentioned Hollywood in the "experimented on" section? (That is, were you just mentioning a gargoyle at random, or was there some feature of Hollywood's that made you think he might specifically wind up in a lab?)

I told Greg (via "Ask Greg") about the "Lit Brick" reference to "Gargoyles", which I thought was a lot of fun. (I'll have to read the whole "Lit Brick" take on Malory soon.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Aug 19, 2010 7:38:15 pm EDT from 4.244.211.235

Demonskrye> Some interesting insight. Regarding the Brooklyn section I'm just going to point out Greg's comment (here http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=11988, and clarified here http://gargoyles.dracandros.com/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AKatana&diff=21288&oldid=19842) that Brooklyn will return to the future sometime after meeting Katana. I think it's pretty clear that his first departure will be some time before the end of the war, and thus should be just as compelling as you suggest.
Supermorff
posted @ Thu, Aug 19, 2010 6:40:21 pm EDT from 86.151.46.63

Since I haven't read the 2198 contest synopsis in a while, here are a few thoughts. Caps are Weisman's; bold is my emphasis.

"Gargoyles were denied basic "human" rights. They were discriminated against. Experimented upon. Attacked. Caged. And sometimes destroyed."

I'm going on the assumption that Greg isn't putting anything in here that he doesn't intend to follow up on. So if he says that some gargoyles were subjected to experimentation, I'm guessing we would eventually see that happen (in the regular series) given enough time.

Anyone else feeling extremely worried about Hollywood's future safety?

"Despite this, GOLIATH, the leader of the gargoyles, maintained hope that one day humans and gargoyles would live in peace."

This could just be a convenient shorthand, even though this contest results are not the "official" pitch. But then again, it could indicate that Goliath eventually becomes a sort of leader to what will become the Gargoyle Nation. It could be a sign of respect and faith in his abilities, but I could also see some clans - particularly the more isolationist ones or those hard hit by gargoyle fearing humans - wanting Goliath to take responsibility for protecting the species as the leader of the clan that "outed" gargoyles to the world, however unintentionally.

"DELILAH -....Her ancestors include her namesake, the Delilah that Anton Sevarius cloned by combining the DNA of ELISA MAZA with that of DEMONA."

I'm not sure what this means for the theory that Delilah is a clone of the original Delilah, which some fans are partial to. While that theory would explain why her human ancestry is still an issue and hasn't largely disappeared after a few generations, I don't think Greg would phrase this sentence that way if the original Delilah were her only ancestor. Still, this is all canon-in-training and subject to change.

"ZAFIRO - He has feathered wings, reptilian features and skin the color of sapphires."

I don't recall if the CHeeks design for Zafiro had blue skin; I think it was green. But Samson is supposed to be a different coloration than Goliath, so it could just be another case of either the design not being the right color yet or Greg changing his mind about the characters' colors since writing this (assuming that Greg was aware of the Cheeks designs.)

"Nokkar is deeply shamed by his failure to protect his adoptive world. He would gladly sacrifice his life to redeem himself."

I don't think Greg would say this if it weren't important, but I think the resolution being "And he does" might be a little too simple. Maybe Nokkar is so desperate to redeem himself that he often advocates extremely dangerous attacks on the Space-Spawn with himself taking point and will take any risk to give the resistance even the slightest advantage, leading to Samson having to talk some sense into him.

"DEMONA -...This may be her last chance at redemption... or her final opportunity to annihilate the human race."

I'm going to go with the view that this is true. Demona may not begin the series redeemed, but she may be redeemed by the war's end/ If you consider Demona's story to be the one story arc that plays out through the whole Gargoyles timeline, then Demona's redemption would be an ideal ending to 2198.

"BROOKLYN - ...he has no intention of abandoning Samson or Earth in their time of need. Someday, however, he may have to make a choice."

Again, I'm assuming that someday he will have to make a choice. I think it would be much more interesting to have Brooklyn leave the future world without ever knowing whether or not the resistance triumphs rather than having him leave after it's clear things are going to be okay. What make him ultimately decide to continue his journey in the hopes of one day going home rather than staying to fight alongside his comrades to save the world is going to be equally interesting.

"THE SPACE-SPAWN - ....They also have weapons capable of destroying the entire planet in a matter of minutes. This creates a dilemma for Samson's Resistance. If Earth becomes more trouble than it's worth, the invaders will simply evacuate the globe and annihilate it."

I think this detail may act kind of like Xanatos's more reasonable goals do in the main series. Xanatos never destroys the gargoyles because that's not really something he wants to do. Samson and the resistance probably won't make many direct all-out attacks on the Space-Spawn until they're pretty sure they can actually win. If they try something big and lose, the consequences could be far worse than just their own deaths.

"COYOTE-X - Once upon a time, Coyote-X had designs on taking over the world. But that was before the Space-Spawn showed up and rebooted his operating parameters. Now anything less than total control of the entire galaxy would strike him as under-achieving."

It's interesting that our heroes will be up against two factions that are really separate from the Space-Spawn. The resurgent Quarrymen are out to get the gargoyles, but they're trying to argue that the gargoyles and the Space-Spawn are allies. I doubt they're going to ally themselves with the the Space-Spawn anytime soon. Coyote-X seems to be in it exclusively for himself. He could prove to be just as much of a heaache for the Space-Spawn as he is for the resistance. I could see him allying himself with them temporarily while secretly plotting to overthrow them at the first opportunity.
Demonskrye - [<---Is Anime Special at The Ink and Pixel Club]
posted @ Thu, Aug 19, 2010 6:28:35 pm EDT from 146.115.115.75

I also think that it's interesting that Greg has never given any info on a potential third child between Brooklyn and Katana. My thinking is that one of them probably dies before 2008. If that is the case, my vote would be Brooklyn dying and Angela becoming the new second. But that is mearly speculation and I am probably wrong.
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Thu, Aug 19, 2010 5:51:22 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

Oops, sorry. I totally intended to provide a link to the Lit Brick page in question. Here it is: http://www.litbrick.com/comic.php?date=2010-08-18
Supermorff
posted @ Thu, Aug 19, 2010 3:25:52 pm EDT from 86.151.46.63

Happy (belated) birthday greetings to Greg B and Karine C!

Phil (or Matt)> This might be a cheeky question, but can you post the precise wording of the sentence in which it mentions Goliath's sacrifice. I'm so curious because the word 'sacrifice' has so many different meanings. When I first heard it, I assumed that Goliath 'dedicated' his life rather than 'lost' his life.

Not sure if anyone here reads the webcomic Lit Brick, but it's recently done a stretch of strips about Le Morte Darthur. The text accompanying yesterday's strip (about Arthur's death and shipping off to Avalon) mentions Gargoyles. I thought that was pretty cool.
Supermorff
posted @ Thu, Aug 19, 2010 3:23:02 pm EDT from 86.151.46.63

Goliath's Sacrifice> The more I think about it, the more I feel that Goliath will die at a relatively young age. The younger he is, the more of a sacrifice it will be for him to give his life for others. If Goliath is pushing 200 by the time he dies, it could feel less like a sacrifice and more like a "good death." Even if Goliath could have very much enjoyed whatever time he would have had left, I at least would have the sense that he was nearing the end of his life expectancy anyways and that it was good for him to have a death that meant something. If Goliath dies with much of his potential life still ahead of him, he's giving up more.

I'll be very surprised if Goliath lives past his 140th birthday (not counting the 1000 year during which he didn't age.)
Demonskrye - [<---Is Anime Special at The Ink and Pixel Club]
posted @ Thu, Aug 19, 2010 12:19:54 pm EDT from 146.115.115.75

Sorry for the triple post and sorry for the misinformation in the double post. The contest doesn't mention Goliath's sacrifice, but the pitch/prize does. (I gotta remember to check my facts before I post them.)
Phil - [p1anderson at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Thu, Aug 19, 2010 9:47:34 am EDT from 69.131.42.43

Sorry for the double post, but Goliath's sacrifice was actually mentioned in the Gargoyles 2198 contest text, which you can find here: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=149
Phil - [p1anderson at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Thu, Aug 19, 2010 9:44:56 am EDT from 69.131.42.43

Masterdramon, re: Gargoyles Minority Protection Act> The information about the GMPA didn't come from either Ask Greg or a Gathering. It's from Greg's "Gargoyles 2198" pitch, which was the prize for the winners of the Gargoyles 2198 contest ten years ago. As far as I know, Matt and I are the only ones besides Greg who have a copy of it. The actual document has not been posted online because Greg specifically asked Matt and I not to, but I think everything in it has been discussed here at one time or another and it's all on the Garg Wiki.
Phil - [p1anderson at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Thu, Aug 19, 2010 9:42:31 am EDT from 69.131.42.43

Happy belated B-Day, G-man. Gladd to hear you had fun. ;)
Algernon
Make a REAL "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!
posted @ Thu, Aug 19, 2010 8:23:51 am EDT from 86.40.2.255

Happy birthday, Bishansky and Karine!
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Aug 19, 2010 7:00:00 am EDT from 4.244.214.189

Greg X: Glad you had a good time. New York certainly has a tad few more interesting ways to spend one's time than Oahu, LOL.

As for "Rhapsody," I wouldn't feel too bad about the shameless plugging, since I was just going to bring it up myself this morning. I just couldn't think of a way to phrase it that didn't sound like sucking up. XD

As a fanfiction writer myself (though not for Gargoyles) I can always appreciate something like this: a veritable love-letter to the series and comics that brings to a head so many disparate plotlines and characters for a supreme finish so satisfying that, honestly, I wouldn't mind it being canon. As a swan-song for your prior fanfic career, the story succeeds magnificently.

>passes birthday cake, even though it is almost certainly a lie<
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss!" - Roger Daltrey of The Who
posted @ Wed, Aug 18, 2010 11:49:10 pm EDT from 72.130.246.18

****Two large cakes appear on the banquet table. A card then pops into existence, and opens. Instead of displaying words, however, Blaise's voice issues from it.****

A very Happy Birthday to both Greg Bishansky and Karine Charlebois!

****After the message ends, the card vanishes, leaving behind only the cakes on the table.****
Blaise
posted @ Wed, Aug 18, 2010 11:48:48 pm EDT from 76.208.128.180

The death of Goliath: Everyone here already knows what I think that will be like, so, ahem, for those of you who don't.

http://fanfic.gargoyles-fans.org/author.php?author=Greg%2BX&sortorder=DESC

This has been a shameless plug, for I have no sense of shame.
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!]
Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!
posted @ Wed, Aug 18, 2010 11:32:20 pm EDT from 68.199.5.105

Thank you for the Birthday wishes.

It is also Karine Charlebois' birthday, so everyone wish her a good one!

I had a great birthday, I went into Manhattan. Got free parking on a street just off Bleeker St. Saw Cindy Crawford (and yes, it was her!). Had a terrific Italian dinner...

... and then I went and saw "Headscarf and the Angry Bitch." A one-woman solo show starring our own Zehra Fazal, long time fan and the model for Thailog's assistant/owner, Shari.

It was terrific.
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!]
Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!
posted @ Wed, Aug 18, 2010 11:22:07 pm EDT from 68.199.5.105

It's his birthday? Well bon anniversaire, then, Monsieur Bishansky! :D
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss!" - Roger Daltrey of The Who
posted @ Wed, Aug 18, 2010 11:04:13 pm EDT from 72.130.246.18

Almost missed it, but happy birthday, Greg B!
Spen
posted @ Wed, Aug 18, 2010 10:30:56 pm EDT from 66.43.205.35

I looked through the archives, and I couldn't find if Greg has ever said is Brooklyn ever becomes leader of the clan (other than when Goliath is briefly forced into hiding). Age does become an issue. I think that Brooklyn would step down before he gets to be Hudson's age when he stepped down as lead in 984. If that is the case, then Brooklyn would step down by 2024. If Goliath is still alive then, the question becomes who would be the new second. I think anyone hatched in 1998 or 2018 would be too young to be the new second. I feel that either Angela or Nashville would be a the new second. Although we don't know who any potential new members to the clan, I think that, for the time being, someone who has a longer history with the clan would be a better choice for leadership.
Adm - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Aug 18, 2010 8:37:30 pm EDT from 24.118.35.68

Todd: Something I've been wondering for a while...when did Greg W say that the Gargoyle Minority Protection Act was to be ushered in by Goliath's sacrifice? I've known this to be the case for a while, but I've never actually seen the point where he said so on AskGreg. Or was this a Gathering revelation?

Demonskrye: Per your suggestion, I jaunted over to the Ink and Pixel Club and posted a few thoughts on your anime article. Hope you enjoy 'em!
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss!" - Roger Daltrey of The Who
posted @ Wed, Aug 18, 2010 8:25:59 pm EDT from 72.130.246.18

@Demonskrye, Re: Yama's Honor:Its interesting to note that, had Yama been following the traditional depiction of Bushido (however accurate that might be), he would have attempted to regain his honor by committing ritual suicide. Although that did not happen for rather obvious meta-textual reasons, I would imagine that, given the Japanese attitudes regarding honor, death, and suicide, that he nevertheless considers dying for his honor in a non-suicide manner an acceptable way for him to regain it.

Also, my review for "Reawakening" is up, and it includes, in brief, my thought about the season as a whole. The piece is bland and unsurprising like a soup that has been allowed to sit still for too long, and can be read here: http://nymonsters.wordpress.com/2010/08/14/introducing-the-most-delicious-gargoyle-reawakening/ .
Ian Perez - [doknowbutchie at gmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Aug 18, 2010 7:45:03 pm EDT from 67.206.197.169

Today's the one-year-anniversary of my buying and reading "Clan-Building: Volume Two"; I decided to celebrate by rereading my "Gargoyles" trade paperbacks. A thoroughly enjoyable experience.

I've occasionally - very occasionally - speculated over how Goliath would die. My initial thought would be one final confrontation with Thailog (inspired by Thailog's similarities to Mordred - except for being an open enemy where Mordred was a traitorous knight of the Round Table), but Greg's mention of Goliath's sacrifice, which helps pave the way for the Gargoyle Minority Protection Act, makes that less likely. Goliath would have to give up his life protecting humans (most likely, a lot of humans) from a threat; Thailog seems more interested in scheming behind the scenes than in going for blatant "take over the world" plans (resembling Xanatos in that). So it would probably be either human criminals (probably engaged in a very high-profile crime), or maybe Demona (Goliath sacrificing himself to stop another genocidal scheme, and this time, unlike the case of "Hunter's Moon", the public sees it). Of course, it might also be rescuing a lot of humans from a natural disaster (which might work even better; a gargoyle rescuing humans from a group of muggers could be seen as like a lion chasing a bunch of jackals away from an antelope so that it gets to eat the antelope, but rescuing them from drowning or falling would be difficult to see in any way other than a heroic rescue - note that Elisa became convinced that Goliath was "one of the good guys" after he rescued her from falling off the top of the Eyrie Building). But I think that Greg's not going to tell us anything until the time comes to write that story - which won't be for a long time, obviously.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Aug 18, 2010 7:19:54 pm EDT from 4.244.210.127

Algernon> My personal theory (based on nothing but my own sense of the characters), is that eventually, Goliath and Brooklyn will have a discussion and come to the shared conclusion that Goliath should select a new second in command. I don't see this happening anytime in the near future. Right now, Brooklyn is pushing the equivalent of a human at 40. He's not the young gargoyle he was before being grabbed up by the Phoenix Gate, but he's not in any danger of keeling over from old age anytime soon and he's more than capable of leading the clan should Goliath be unable to. Should both Goliath and Brooklyn live long enough to have it be an issue, I think they would both agree that a younger second would be best for the future of the clan. By the time the issue is raised, Brooklyn will probably be mature enough not to take it as any kind of comment on his ability to lead. He may well be mature enough to understand that already.
Demonskrye - [<---Is Anime Special at The Ink and Pixel Club]
posted @ Wed, Aug 18, 2010 6:34:39 pm EDT from 146.115.115.75

Landon, they've also alluded that something may be in the works for Rescue Rangers on their message board...in a similar fashion to their Garg tweets.
Harlan Phoenix - [harlanphoenix at live dot com]
posted @ Wed, Aug 18, 2010 6:27:47 pm EDT from 216.96.91.17

DEMONSKRYE> That does raise the very interesting question of who will lead the Clan if Goliath falls in battle or steps down? The standard procedure seems to be for a clan leader to train up a successor from the younger generations as a second. That's what Hudson did for Goliath and that's apparently what Goliath was doing for Brooklyn before the Phoenix ate him.

But now thanks to 40 years of bouncing across time and space, by the time Goliath is Hudson's age, Brook will be pushing the gargoyle equivalent of 70.
Algernon
Make a REAL "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!
posted @ Wed, Aug 18, 2010 6:03:39 pm EDT from 86.40.154.250

Newsarama calls Darkwing Duck #3 (out today): "the strongest story the character has ever seen." http://www.newsarama.com/comics/best-shots-advance-reviews-100816.html There are also apparently DuckTales and Chip 'n Dale Rescue Rangers references. Considering Rescue Rangers has no history with BOOM!, could a Gargoyles reference be in our future? Darkwing is now an ongoing series and BOOM! has acknowledged the Gargoyles' fandom's presence, so we can hope.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]
posted @ Wed, Aug 18, 2010 5:36:48 pm EDT from 128.101.32.230

Adam> I would have to agree that Greg is extremely unlikely to answer either of those questions, or any other questions that would reveal information about future stories. As long as there's a chance that he'll get to write more Gargoyles, he's not going to scoop himself on Ask Greg.

I think whether or not Goliath is still leader of the Manhattan Clan at the time of his death will depend on how old he is when he dies. If he dies relatively young, chances are he would still be the leader. If he lives past the age Hudson is now, I could see him passing on the role of leader to a younger gargoyle. If the latter does happen, I imagine it would be Goliath's decision to step down. I would think that unless Goliath became clearly unfit to lead, most of the clan would be as hesitant to suggest that he step aside as Goliath was when Hudson was leader, especially if Goliath becomes a major figure in the worldwide gargoyle community during his lifetime.

As for Elisa, I think it's reasonable to assume that she will be dead within the next 100 years if not sooner. So if Goliath dies after that point, she's probably not around anymore. But all of these are, again, details Greg is extremely unlikely to reveal.

Patrick> Maybe SLG did due diligence, maybe they didn't. But if this is a case where The Winchester Mystery House has no more right to Sarah Winchester than anyone else, I don't think SLG should be held accountable for not refusing to publish the book because there was someone out there who might file a baseless lawsuit.

No one has to send money if they don't want to and it's fine to want more information on the lawsuit. What I'm concerned about is people jumping to the conclusion that SLG has only themselves to blame because they don't like how SLG handled the Gargoyles, comic.

Masterdramon> Thank you again for your kind compliments. I hope you'll consider posting a few at The Ink and Pixel Club.
Demonskrye - [<---Is Anime Special at The Ink and Pixel Club]
posted @ Wed, Aug 18, 2010 4:54:24 pm EDT from 146.115.115.75

Brian Bartoccini: Those comics stopped because Disney increased the license fee for the Gargoyles comics to where it became too expensive to continue making them. You can read Greg Weisman's own words about this here:
http://s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=787
Gorebash
posted @ Wed, Aug 18, 2010 4:28:50 pm EDT from 207.206.236.230

ADAM> "Is Goliath still leader of the clan when he dies?"

I would think it unlikely, being deceased tends tends to have a very negative effect on one's leadership skills. :P
Algernon
Make a REAL "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!
posted @ Wed, Aug 18, 2010 4:03:30 pm EDT from 86.40.154.250

Excuse me, could someone of you answer to me: will Mr. Weisman continue to write other comic book storie about Gargoyles? I've heard there are some problems about that and Mr. Weisman can't continue that is began in 2006.
I really hope Disney decide to continue to produce the DVDs and the comic books(and decide to release them in the other countries once for all) and make a real Gargoyles movie.
Brian Bartoccini - [giovanni dot bartoccini at gmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Aug 18, 2010 3:47:48 pm EDT from 95.74.181.144

Antiyonder here.

Adam> In addition to what's been said, pretty much anything that would require spoiling of future stories will be unanswered.
Anonymous
posted @ Wed, Aug 18, 2010 1:15:52 pm EDT from 66.225.14.190

Do we know whether or not SLG did their "due diligence"? Dan Vado's been in the industry for quite a long time. I find it hard to believe that they didn't consult with a lawyer beforehand.

The few fourth and fifth-hand accounts I've read about this indicate that SLG did have permission to use the name, but then someone else came along with more money and SLG lost that permission. Which is why SLG changed the name of the book from simply "Winchester" to "Secrets of Sarah Winchester". The idea being that using a historical figure's full name rather than just "Winchester" would get around the trademark issue.

Imagine if books about John Adams could be kept off shelves because his family's estate could sue anyone who used his name.

I like Dan Vado's approach that, while it would be far cheaper and more business savvy to simply drop the title, standing up to lawsuits he feels have no merit is the more important thing to do. It's like standing up to a bully rather than run away, despite the obvious negative consequences. For that I commend him. That takes a lot of guts.

Yes, we don't have all the details of what's going on with the lawsuit. That's not different from any other lawsuit. Usually lawyers tell their clients to stay quiet on the subject while it's in litigation to protect themselves from saying something that might harm the case. Or there may be a gag order preventing SLG from giving specifics about the case. You can't fault SLG for that.

So what it boils down to is do you believe in SLG? If you do, you trust they're on the right side of this case and, if you've got a few bucks, consider giving them a few. If you don't, then sit back and don't worry about it.

Considering what SLG did for Gargoyles, especially having Greg write them and bringing in artists from the fandom to draw some of the comics, I would say that they deserve our trust.

They've got Neil Gaiman's trust:
http://twitter.com/neilhimself/status/21338698111
Gorebash
posted @ Wed, Aug 18, 2010 12:49:19 pm EDT from 207.206.236.230

Adam: I can say with pretty much 100% certainty that Greg W will not answer either of those questions with anything more than a "No comment," so I wouldn't waste queue-space with them.

The death of Goliath will undoubtedly be one of the most powerful moments in the entirety of the Gargoyles canon, so I wouldn't expect Greg W to spoil anything about it.
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss!" - Roger Daltrey of The Who
posted @ Wed, Aug 18, 2010 12:45:03 pm EDT from 72.130.246.18

Just wondering if this question is worth asking Greg:
1. Is Goliath still leader of the clan when he dies?
2. Is Elisa still alive when Goliath dies?

thanks.
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Aug 18, 2010 12:35:31 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

Antiyonder - Thanks for the link, I hadn't seen that.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]
posted @ Tue, Aug 17, 2010 11:22:59 pm EDT from 216.250.163.157

Algernon > All I'm saying is do some due diligence and pick your legal battles. Also, "public domain" applies to copyright law, and we're talking trademark. The LLC apparently believes they have trademark on the name, and has history of pursuing legal action on that basis.
Patrick
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Tue, Aug 17, 2010 11:12:27 pm EDT from 173.88.135.205

Algernon> I think you are right, though I would like to see a more detailed account of the lawsuit and it is, of course, up to everyone individually to decide whether or not they want to donate money.

If this is indeed a group claiming exclusive rights to a historical figure, then I don't think it's fair to blame SLG for not checking ahead of time to see if someone might file a lawsuit against them for doing something perfectly legal.
Demonskrye - [<---Is Anime Special at The Ink and Pixel Club]
posted @ Tue, Aug 17, 2010 10:23:08 pm EDT from 146.115.115.75

PATRICK> I know this might make me unpopular with some folks but I'm totally on SLG's side this time. Sarah Winchester is a historical figure and therefore public domain. It's no different then somebody doing a comic about Teddy Roosevelt or H.G. Wells.

I doubt anyone here would have a problem if Greg wrote a Timedancer story where Brook met Mrs. Winchester.
Algernon
Make a REAL "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!
posted @ Tue, Aug 17, 2010 9:18:06 pm EDT from 86.40.149.139

Guess that gives us all the more reason to hope that BOOM! does a "Gargoyles" comic book.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Aug 17, 2010 7:44:04 pm EDT from 4.244.208.202

I was going to pick it up to begin with as I do with many animated titles, but the fact that it will be part of the show rather than just a cash in only makes it better.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
Algernon's comment about Norman Osborn: One of the neat things about Dark Reign is that it gives Osborn the chance to expand his horizons beyond tormenting a twenty nine year old who still lives with his mom.
posted @ Tue, Aug 17, 2010 7:35:06 pm EDT from 71.115.241.194

Maybe SLG should have consulted lawyers BEFORE making a book about real life people and a real life place that might not take kindly too it. The Winchester Mystery House LLC already had history of taking legal action against unauthorized documentaries.
Patrick
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Tue, Aug 17, 2010 7:35:03 pm EDT from 173.88.135.205

ANTIYONDER> I'm definitly going to try and pick up the YJ comic if I can. I am VERY excited for this show. Greg Weisman with the entire Dc universe to play with? I am so there! :D
Algernon
Make a REAL "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!
posted @ Tue, Aug 17, 2010 7:26:49 pm EDT from 86.40.149.139

Antiyonder: Yeah, I read that a while back. Assuming that I have some way of reliably acquiring the comic (which isn't a guarantee, as there are no comic stores near my college), I'll definitely be picking it up.
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss!" - Roger Daltrey of The Who
posted @ Tue, Aug 17, 2010 7:15:43 pm EDT from 72.130.246.18

Sorry, for the double post, but another Gargoyles/The Room moment came to me:

[SPOILER] Broadway (trying to impress Angela) Did you uh, know that uh chocolate is the symbol of love. [/SPOILER]
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
Algernon's comment about Norman Osborn: One of the neat things about Dark Reign is that it gives Osborn the chance to expand his horizons beyond tormenting a twenty nine year old who still lives with his mom.
posted @ Tue, Aug 17, 2010 7:11:37 pm EDT from 71.115.241.194

Not sure if it's old news here, but according to Greg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzoopkET0m8), the Young Justice comic tie in will actually be a part of the continuity of the cartoon. Anyone else going to get it?
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
Algernon's comment about Norman Osborn: One of the neat things about Dark Reign is that it gives Osborn the chance to expand his horizons beyond tormenting a twenty nine year old who still lives with his mom.
posted @ Tue, Aug 17, 2010 7:08:52 pm EDT from 71.115.241.194

Antiyonder: While I saw that last one coming a mile away, it was still bloody hilarious. Might I also suggest...

[SPOILER] Matt: Hi.

Mr. Jaffe: Can I help you?

Matt: Yeah, can I have a dozen enormous sacks of flour please?

Mr. Jaffe: Oh hi Matty, I didn't know it was you. Here you go.

Matt: That's me. How much is it?

Mr. Jaffe: That'll be eighteen d-

Matt: Here you go, keep the change...oh hi doggy.

Mr. Jaffe: You're my favorite customer.

Matt: Thanks a lot. Bye.

Mr. Jaffe: Buh-bye. [/SPOILER]

...Now that I look it over again, rendering this scene in text does not even come close to conveying its sheer awfulness. Ah well.

Demonskrye: I greatly enjoyed your latest article on the lessening "specialness" of anime in Western society. 'Twas some interesting food-for-thought.
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss!" - Roger Daltrey of The Who
posted @ Tue, Aug 17, 2010 5:49:43 pm EDT from 72.130.246.18

As Algernon suggested, I will be posting three lines from The Room inserted into several moments from the Gargoyles Universe.

So I suggest either seeing the movie, or the reviews on blip tv by The Nostalgia Critic or Obscurus Lupa.

That said,
[SPOILER] 1. After Goliath discovers that his clan are trapped in stone during 994:

Goliath- Everybody betrayed me! I fed up with this world!

2. An added scene to Gargoyles issue 3 (nonsensical, but hopefully funny):

Elisa- I'm in love with Morgan, not Goliath.

Diane- It's not right Elisa.

3. Goliath's reaction after Elisa suggests that they see other people:

Goliath: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART ELISA!!!!!!!!!! [/SPOILER]
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
Algernon's comment about Norman Osborn: One of the neat things about Dark Reign is that it gives Osborn the chance to expand his horizons beyond tormenting a twenty nine year old who still lives with his mom.
posted @ Tue, Aug 17, 2010 5:30:58 pm EDT from 71.115.241.194

LOL What's up with Greg's evil laugh in the question about the number 16? Does he do that often? He enjoys a good joke, that's for sure.

Golly ned I can't wait for November.
Daniel B
"Weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning." (Psalms 30:5)
posted @ Tue, Aug 17, 2010 4:12:23 pm EDT from 24.254.162.166

LANDON> To quote a friend of mine: Those so eager to toss money at SLG should demand more details about the source of their legal fiasco first.
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!]
Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!
posted @ Tue, Aug 17, 2010 2:13:50 pm EDT from 68.199.5.105

DEMONSKRYE> It's interesting that you mention Yama, I personally suspect that their was a subtle clue to how his association with the Squad might end in issue two...

"you would have me swear undying fealty to a gargoyle hunter?"

Now that's some interesting wording. Yama swore fealty to Robyn specifically, not the Director, not Monsieur Le Maire. I suspect Greg was laying the groundwork for some very long term plans.
Algernon
Make a REAL "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!
posted @ Tue, Aug 17, 2010 1:52:36 pm EDT from 86.40.148.131

Redemption Squad> I think we're probably too early in to figure out too much about where or how members of the Squad might end up if and when the Squad disbands. It's not just that they're at the very beginning of this particular career; we also don't know very much at all about the Director and what his short and long term intentions might be. It does seem likely that the members of the Squad were chosen because they are seen as expendable, with everything to gain and very little to lose. But who knows whether the Director's promises of redemption for these people are serious or whether his feelings on the matter may change over time?

How Yama might get out is of particular concern to me. His tenure with the Redemption Squad has the most obvious endpoint: he will stay until his honor is restored. But at the same time, that's a very vague goal and it doesn't help any that Yama has been tasked with judging himself. Yama clearly takes his honor and the damage he's done to it very seriously. So I wonder what action or actions he thinks would be enough to make up for betraying his clan. My fear is that it's going to be very hard for Yama to judge himself worthy of returning to his clan, though he obviously thinks that it's a possibility. It's definitely not unthinkable that the deed which restores Yama's honor could take his life in the process.
Demonskrye - [<---Is Anime Special at The Ink and Pixel Club]
posted @ Tue, Aug 17, 2010 10:24:31 am EDT from 146.115.115.75

SLG is in a trademark dispute with a sue-friendly LLC: http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2010/08/comics-a-m-the-comics-internet-in-two-minutes-176/ They've already spent tens of thousands and they're asking for help: https://www.slgcomic.com/legaldfund_ep_80-1.html This might explain why we've heard nothing on the graphic novel negotiations nor the Gargoyles ultimate edition that Dan Vado mentioned once. They've also have had a lot of fire sales recently and not a whole lot of new content this year.

Considering SLG has given us the first new Gargoyles content in over 10 years, I think they deserve our help. This really is kind of scary because Vado regularly talks about how many times SLG has barely scraped by over the years. Taking out loans to pay tens of thousands in legal fees could be fatal.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]
posted @ Tue, Aug 17, 2010 9:54:33 am EDT from 216.250.163.157

Cool-a Gorebash sighting! ^_^
Wingless
posted @ Tue, Aug 17, 2010 2:35:51 am EDT from 99.245.254.123

Adding to what Todd said, I'm wagering that the Director is assuming that the members of the Redemption Squad will kick the bucket [I]long[/] before the time comes where it would seem appropriate for them to retire. Remember that, apart from their skills, the Squad has been chosen largely for their expendability. Many of the missions that they are sent on appear to be nigh-suicidal, and if Hunter, Dingo, Fang, or Yama were to be killed in the line of duty I'm sure that the Director's organization would consider them to be "acceptable losses."

If the Redemption Squad eventually wants to leave this gig, it's not going to be as simple as handing in letters of resignation. They're going to have a bit of a fight on their hands, because none of their superiors are actually expecting them to survive this ordeal.
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss!" - Roger Daltrey of The Who
posted @ Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:04:01 pm EDT from 72.130.246.18

That's assuming that the Director will let them go - they're not in the Squad just because of their inner needs.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Aug 16, 2010 9:55:23 pm EDT from 4.244.209.227

I would like to post a new topic for us to discuss. After they have found there "redemption", what is the future for the Redemption Squad? I would like to see Fang rejoin the Labyrinth clan, Yama do back to Ishimura, and Dingo, Matrix, and Hunter join King Arthur as some of his new knights.
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Aug 16, 2010 8:07:38 pm EDT from 24.118.35.68

Nebulan: There's a library within the Ask Greg archives specifically for the topic of a Gargoyles novel: http://s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/archives.php?lid=266

Might I suggest reading the "Real World" section of the FAQ as well: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/faq.php?s=realworld
Gorebash
posted @ Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:05:18 am EDT from 207.206.238.152

Hello all! It's been a while since I posted, but I have a question, I've looked through Ask Greg and it looks like there's no new news and I don't know how to search this comment room... but after getting my copy of Bad Guys a couple weeks ago and thoroughly enjoying it, I suddenly realized: Is this the LAST of my Gargoyles canon?? Do I have to wait another 10 years for something new to be released?

Looking through ask Greg I couldn't find and I can't believe it's never been asked: what about Novelization? As much as I love graphics and the visual appeal of a TV show and comic book and think a live action/computer animated Gargoyles movie would be GREAT, I would be still very satisfied to buy a novel written by Greg Weisman! (and this is coming from someone who generally don't NOT like to read, esp fanfic) But is that not the issue with getting Disney's funding/approval? Is the cost of printing a novel not that much better?

also... hey, I know it's been a few years since I posted, but there used to be a Macbeth option for the Avatar!
Nebulan
"...and each the other's pain resound"
posted @ Mon, Aug 16, 2010 9:38:33 am EDT from 152.121.50.5

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