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The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending September 20, 2010

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In the spirit of Yom Kippur, Ed Asner calls Stephen Colbert's Atone Phone hotline. Hilarity ensues.


Greg Bishansky

PHOENICIAN - Thanks for pointing that out. I hadn't thought about the implications of that for the "Duval and Peredur" discussion, though I'd enjoyed Greg's answer (largely thanks to my interest in Arthurian matters, including the Holy Grail).

I do have a couple of "Gargoyles"-related questions or comments when the queue resumes itself (most likely in November, once "Young Justice" premieres), including a commentary on Macbeth's presence at the Battle of Bannockburn (related to the concept of the king who returns when his country needs him). I'm not going to ask about Peredur and Duval's exact connection, though; Greg's clearly not going to answer that, except in the form of more stories. (I do want to ask him, though - in a question related to "Percival" - whether it was his idea or Karine's to include a knight's shield with a picture of a swan on it in the Illuminati treasury as depicted in "Bad Guys".)

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1 at mindspring dot com]

Just so everyone knows, Spider-Man has been revealed at the Tokyo Game Show for the upcoming Marvel vs. Capcom 3: Fate of Two Worlds. Guess who's got voice acting duties?

At least Josh keeps getting Spidey love in the games. Shattered Dimensions as Ultimate Spidey (w/symbiote) and now Spidey proper in MvC3.

Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

MODs: Have been following MODs quite a bit. Haven't bought any yet as alot of them tend to be available only in their country of origin. Both Nick and Warner Brothers are doing this(Warners mainly with movies and some animated specials-Gorebash's fave "Flight Of the Dragons" being among them).

The quality is usually as good as whatever the masters are. In the case of Nick's shows, like "Rocko's Moder Life" - the complaint there I've read that they're using edited or censored versions of the show(although what they'd censor in that is beyond me).

Warner Brothers plan was to sell their MOD's on their own website. This eliminates the retail aspect of things-and stores are now cutting back on stocking many smaller titles for any number of reasons. Even Shout Factory has their own line of "On line only" titles. Shows they know people want, but they know the retailers aren't going to bother to stock.

It still baffles me that a company like Disney sits on their properties and does nothing with them. Canada's so called Disney affiliate "Family Channel" aires mainly those cheezy teen live action shows now. It's painful to see. I've even suggested to them that they could run the old animated series during the night for those of us "older folks" that still enjoy them. They claim they don't own the rights to them anymore(Fine, air the same show 6 times a day-sheeesh).

Disney really has to get with the program and start changing with the times. Hell, there's still Talespin, & Darkwing Duck episodes still in the vaults that they could put out as MODs or in this case TOD TVshows ON Demand.


MODs> I actually remember hearing about this concept on TVShowsOnDVD for various Nicktoons like Doug/[I] and [I]Rugrats . . . I just never heard how the quality of the sets compared to those DVD sets that were more "official" (and for lack of a better word, I'll admit I have had some initial biases). Nevertheless, I'd like to one day own those remaining episodes (duh!), so its a decent thought for sure.

There was also another TVShowsOnDVD story I've followed for some time where the show had a few releases but sales ultimately discontinued the product. For Boy Meets World, three seasons (of seven) were released with the fourth being put on perpetual hiatus . . . UNTIL Lionsgate Entertainment was given the licsense to release several ABC/Disney shows like 8 Simple Rules and Boy Meets World. Now I never really considered Lionsgate for the last volume of Gargoyles (frankly I just don't know about them beyond the story above), but I did wonder if Disney would ever consider licensing out the other Disney Afternoon shows like they did with the Lionsgate deal.

All in all, the above is just mere musings . . . I clearly don't have anymore of a bright idea of getting those last 26 episodes on DVD other than continuing to spread the word, buy sets for gifts when I can, and writing letters.

RECENT ANSWERS> I don't remember how long ago the most recent discussion of Peredur/Duval was . . . maybe one or two weeks ago. But I did find it curious that while Greg has stated that nothing has changed in his plans regarding Duval being the head of the Illuminati and being Percival (confusing the bejeezus out of us), that he recently answered one of Todd's questions mentioned the Fisher Kings:

"I was following the tradition of it being the Cup from the Last Supper, brought to Britain by Joseph of Arimathea and kept at Carbonek by the Fisher Kings (leading to Pelles and then Peredur)."

Really not sure what to make of it, whether its even anything at all in fact, but it could be further confirmation of a theory or two out there or just another (seeming & confusing) contradiction, but I did find it interesting nonetheless.

"The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

...and so, the letter writing has begun...

This is a very interesting idea... It's worth a shot!

The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>")> Meh...

All right, guys...I've recently been thrilled to receive DVD releases of some of my favorite shows from CBS and Warner Bros. (i.e. SURVIVOR and THE NEW ADVENTURES OF OLD CHRISTINE) that I thought I would never see due to low sales of earlier sets...much like the GARGOYLES dilemma. It's thanks to this new method of creating DVD discs called "MOD" or "manufactured on demand." In other words, a studio says they are going to release a season of a TV show, but not to general stores...instead, you order it, pay for it, and THEN they manufacture the set for you and ship it to you...this way, they don't have to worry about losing money because they only make the sets that are purchases...no excess inventory. Diehard fans who are willing to pay can get the sets and the studio doesn't lose any money...it's win-win. Disney has yet to use this method for anything, but I got to thinking that if we reignited a polite letter-writing campaign to Disney asking them to make this available to those fans willing to pay for it, we MAY have a decent shot at getting them to try it. I decided to send a post to Ask Greg to see what Greg Weisman thought, and today he posted the following response (with my original question on top):

Patrick Gilchriest writes...
Hi Greg, I've been a HUGE Gargoyles fan ever since it first came out. Like most fans, I've been hoping against hope (while realizing it's probably not going to happen anytime this side of 1,000 years) that SEASON 2 VOLUME 2 will finally be released, even after five years. However, there's a new trend I see starting in the TV-on-DVD release universe that MAY provide us with a solution if fans can get back on board and start bugging Disney about it. Have you heard about Disc-on-Demand, sometimes referred to as MOD (Manufactured-on-Demand)? Just in case you haven't, it works just like it sounds...a company says they are going to "release" a season of a T.V. show, but not in stores...you order it online, either via their website or by Amazon, and when you order it and pay for it, they make the set then and ship it to you. They don't have to worry about shipping it to stores and making more sets than meet demand. This way, die-hard fans can get their hands on the material and the company doesn't lose money. CBS and Warner Bros. are both starting to do it with some of my favorite shows that haven't seen releases in a long time due to low sales of earlier sets, much like what GARGOYLES faced. But now, with this new capability, fans can get their hands on this material, and I think it would be terrific if Disney could get on board with this for GARGOYLES. What do you think? Could you post this idea on your site so fans can start writing Disney informing them of their interest? This seems much more possible to me than waiting for them to release it as a mass-release set in stores. Thanks, and have a great day!

Greg responds...
I love the idea!
I admit I don't know how to get Disney interested in doing this for Gargoyles if they aren't doing it for ANYTHING yet. But a letter-writing campaign is a good way to start. Patrick, I nominate you to spearhead this. Post this in the s8 Comment Room and any other Gargoyles site you can think of. (I think there are a couple on facebook.)
If people send actual LETTERS to Disney Home Entertainment, it may have some effect. Especially if a LOT of people send letters. (And if those letters sound reasonable and polite. Draft a sample letter and post that to give people a clear idea what to ask for.
In any case, it can't hurt.


So here it is! I am officially launching this campaign and asking for your help. Please write, call, do whatever you can to let Disney know that you would be willing to purchase GARGOYLES SEASON 2 VOLUME 2 if it was released using this new manufacture-on-demand process. The more you write hard copy letters, the better...but anything will do. Now, as Greg said in his answer, the most important thing to remember is we need to be professional and POLITE in anything we write to Disney, otherwise they'll tune us right out.

Here is a sample of something I wrote recently to Disney. Obviously, we don't all want to say the same thing, but this may give you some ideas:

"Hi, I am a huge fan of GARGOYLES and have been for many years. I love the depth and complexity of the characters, and the English teacher in me appreciates the references to Shakespeare and mythology. Very rarely do you find a T.V. series that is so effectively developed, thought-provoking, and entertaining.

That is why I think it is tragic that SEASON 2 VOLUME 2 has still not been released, even though it has been five years since the release of VOLUME 1. I understand about money and low sales, and it's a shame that low sales resulted from the first two sets considering the show STILL, almost 20 years later, has a massive cult following that is eagerly awaiting and hoping against hope for a release of Season 2 Volume 2. (Since very few fans care about season 3, it's particularly painful because it means we are only one set away from completing our collections).

However, I am writing today to implore you to look at another option so that this set could finally be released. I am a fan of many different shows, and two of my favorites, THE NEW ADVENTURES OF OLD CHRISTINE from Warner Bros. and SURVIVOR from CBS, have also been delayed for a long time due to low sales of early sets. In fact, SURVIVOR came out with its latest set shortly after GARGOYLES SEASON 2 VOLUME 1, and fans have been left without many seasons due to low sales of the mass market sets. However, both CHRISTINE and SURVIVOR are now starting to return to DVD due to this new trend in "Manufacturing Discs on Demand." I'm sure you're familiar with this process, and the benefits are clear for both parties. You, as the company releasing the product, make money on every set you manufacture because you make them as they are ordered. You don't have to worry about losing money making several sets and then finding them sitting on store shelves or in boxes gathering dust for years.

It's a win-win situation for both parties, actually...die-hard fans can pay you (therefore giving you money) for a set, and then the fans get to complete their collections. I think this is the PERFECT solution to the GARGOYLES problem...and it is a problem, because I find it sad that the last set was deliberately marketed as "Volume 1" and five years later, "Volume 2" is nowhere in sight. This is the perfect time to remedy this situation, and doing it via the Disc on Demand (which, from what I understand, is easy enough to do directly from your site) and Amazon. PLEASE give this some serious consideration...as I said, it's win-win for all involved. I hope to see SEASON 2 VOLUME 2 being made available to fans who order them soon. Thank you!"


The more interested, enthusiastic, and persistent (without being annoying) fans we get sending polite inquiries into this possibility, then WHO KNOWS what could happen? While it's a tough sell to get them to mass produce this set, something like this could actually have a shot at working. You never know...maybe this is the answer we've been waiting for to finally get SEASON 2 VOLUME 2 on DVD!

Please feel free to use my E-mail address if you want to ask any questions or ask me to proofread any letters...I am a certified English teacher, after all, and I'm such a huge fan of the series I am so excited to have SOMETHING that may finally get us this one set.

For your reference, here is the address to write a hard copy letter to Disney:

Walt Disney Studios
500 S. Buena Vista Street
Burbank, CA. 91506

If you can send to BOTH the studio itself AND online, then we can get them in both places...either way, let's let them know that there are a lot of die-hard fans out there who would GLADLY purchase this set if it was made available via this Disc on Demand feature!

Thanks everyone! :)

Patrick Gilchriest - [prgilchriest20 at yahoo dot com]

I still go with Granny Goodness (with her Ed Asner voice) to play the nanny. Doesn't get any funnier than that.

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1 at mindspring dot com]

Todd: As someone who knows a thing or two about the Golden Age, I'll give you a quick run-down...

Jay Garrick - The Golden Age Flash, who gained super-speed from the inhalation of heavy water vapors. He wore a red shirt with a lightning insignia and a winged helmet in tribute to the God Mercury.

Alan Scott - The Golden Age Green Lantern, whose powers derived from a mystical lantern that he found in a temple in China. He wore a heavy cape, domino mask, and red shirt with the insignia of his lantern.

Hippolyta - The Queen of the Amazons, and Wonder Woman's mother.

The Wizard Shazam - The wizard who grants the Marvel family their powers, allowing them to transform and call upon his strength by shouting his name.

Uncle Dudley - Also known as Uncle Marvel, Dudley H. Dudley was an overweight charlatan who dressed up as a Marvel family member and tried to join them. The Marvels saw through his disguise immediately but allowed him to stick around as he was largely just a harmless fool. He would serve chiefly as comedy relief on the team but would occasionally accomplish great deeds through sheer dumb luck.

He would easily be my personal choice for "Justice Nanny," incidentally. XD

Ma Hunkel - The Golden Age Red Tornado, Abigail Hunkel was a working mom who was inspired to become a small-time superhero due to her childrens' admiration of them. Her costume was homemade and featured a cooking pot as a mask, with which she concealed her gender as she fought petty crime. She would later become an honorary member of the Justice Society, cooking them meals and managing their museum in later years.

Mr. Tawny - An intelligent, bipedal tiger who wished to live as a human, dressing in a business suit and assisting the Marvel family during the Golden Age. He was later revamped as, essentially, a serious version of Hobbes; he was a tiger doll who was brought to life to aid the Marvels, though only they could see him as real.

Hope this helps! :)

Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"Nobody knows what it's like to be the bad man, to be the sad man...behind blue eyes..." - Roger Daltrey of The Who

TODD> If you're ever on the west coast of Ireland I'll lend ya my copy of the DC Universe Encyclopedia ;)
Make a REAL "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!

Incidentally, Greg Weisman's answer to the Justice Babies question (over who'd be the Nanny equivalent) showed me more than ever how little I know about the DC Comics Universe; I recognized a couple of the names (like Hippolyta - though more from Greek mythology - or the "Wizard Shazam") but most of them were a mystery to me.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1 at mindspring dot com]

Todd> Ah, didn't notice the number of questions left, good to hear about that.

Demonskyre> Yes, I still can't believe that he does it and continues to put up with all this just so he can relate more directly with his fans. Greg's one awesome guy, that's for sure.

Speaking of questions, have you guys seen the latest response about the Disc-on-Demand idea to get the rest of Gargoyles out on DVD? It sounds really interesting, although I don't really know anything about that myself.

Daniel B
"Weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning." (Psalms 30:5)

Daniel B.> I'm not sure why all of the "Will so-and-so be in Young Justice?" questions aren't getting a generic quoted response from "an Ask Greg Helper."

But for the record, Greg doesn't have to put up with these questions and fans. He doesn't get paid to do Ask Greg. He could decide at any time to make stricter question screening guidelines, close the queue for a year, or walk away altogether. What we;re seeing now is part of the reason that so few creators do interacts with fans online on a regular basis, and Greg deserves a lot of respect for sticking with it when he doesn't have to.

Demonskrye - [<---The Ink and Pixel Club]

DANIEL - At least he's getting near the end of the questions (I think there are only around nineteen left), and the queue probably won't open again until after "Young Justice" premieres in November. There'll probably be more spoiler questions once that happens, but at least the televised episodes will have begun to air, prompting questions about the content of those that will probably be more worthwhile.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1 at mindspring dot com]

I used to think the way time moves on Avalon was a special thing until I graduated and started working and found myself in meetings where an hour seemed as long as a day.
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Where did you get that the eggs had thirteen years left to hatch? They only take ten years to hatch, and as of 995, had about three years left to hatch.
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!]
Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!

Ok, I was lead here by gargwiki, and so sorry if this annoys anyone, but I was wondering how many others have noticed that the math for the Timeflow difference between Avalon and the real world is off. If you go by one day is one hour, then roughly 1 Avalon year is 24.5 years on earth, meaning the hatching of Angela and the other 'eggs' should have taken place in 1308 AD normal time, and not 1058.

Following the formula: -
1 hour on Avalon = 1 day in real world
1 day on Avalon = 24 days in real world
1 week on Avalon = 168 days in real world
2 weeks on Avalon = 336 days in real world
2 weeks, 1 day and 4.25 hours = 1 year in real world

and getting down to the final notion:

1 year on Avalon = roughly 24 to 24.5 years

if you multiply the easier 24 years by 13, (the number of years the eggs had left to hatch after 995 AD), then you get 312, which is how many years have passed in the real world at the time of the hatching. Therefore, if you add 995 + 312 you get 1307, though since the years aren't quite accurate, you can easily assume 1308 AD for the actual year.

Anyway, I just wanted to explain this and get it out of my head so to speak.

(Feel free to delete this if the administrator so chooses)

miraitrunks766 - [miraitrunks766 at hotmail dot com]

*looks at Greg's latest responses* Woah. Just wow. Gosh, I hope this doesn't make him go insane. XD It's amazing all the stuff you must put up with from fans in the job he has, he definitely has my respect for that. Still...shouldn't some questions asking for spoilers like that maybe be deleted to give him some breathing room? Or something we can do? Forgive me if that's wrong to suggest, I just feel for him right now.
Daniel B
"Weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning." (Psalms 30:5)

I wonder how Gargoyles numbers would have been different if it came out bi-monthly like it was supposed to.......oh well.
Anthony Tini

Sir_Griff723 - Yup and the 2nd printing of #2 is out this week.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Landon> is DW#4 coming out next week?
Sir_Griff723@yahoo.com - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
Cheese, it's as good an answer as any.

Amazingly, Darkwing Duck #3 actually did sell higher than #1: http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/18350.html

06/2010 Darkwing Duck #1 - 6,300
07/2010 Darkwing Duck #2 - 5,396
08/2010 Darkwing Duck #3 - 6,355

06/2010 Uncle Scrooge/DuckTales #392 - no data
07/2010 Uncle Scrooge/DuckTales #393 - 3,715
08/2010 Uncle Scrooge/DuckTales #394 - 3,610

06/2006 Gargoyles #1 - 7,538
12/2006 Gargoyles #2 - 6,919
03/2007 Gargoyles #3 - 6,504

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

HofE> Thats awesome!

Man, it is gonna feel weird when Gargoyles turns twenty in a few years.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]

Missed the Gummi Bears' birthday by one day, but I figured I'd post this. It's a few years old, but it's very clever:


Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I don't know, I'm making this up as I go." -Indiana Jones

And let's not forget that "Gummi Bears" was one of the core inspirations for "Gargoyles", as Greg Weisman has pointed out. (I saw in particular the parallel of a non-human race with its own world-view and culture forced into hiding by hostile humans, split up into various small groups that gradually make contact with each other once more and hope to forge a new beginning.)

Incidentally, I was thinking (after a conversation with Ed Reynolds) about one particular feature that can show up in an animated adventure series like "Gargoyles": where the antagonist comes up with a specific scheme, and the potential question arises of "Why he-or-she doesn't try it again and fix the problems with it?" It struck me that the Stone of Destiny story in the "Gargoyles" comic provided an especially good example of how to ensure that the antagonist won't repeat that particular scheme for a good in-story reason:

1. The Illuminati succeed in stealing the Stone of Destiny.

2. They then discover that the Stone is just a mouthpiece for a powerful incorporeal force or entity that speaks and acts through the Stone - but can speak and act through any stone, and which no one (including the Illuminati) can capture or control.

(I remember a Roadrunner cartoon which made use of the concept in a different way; the Coyote records all his unsuccessful attempts to catch the Roadrunner to study them and catch where they went wrong so that he can fix them. He spots the errors in one specific attempt - he walked too far back when setting a rope trap for the Roadrunner and fell off a cliff - and fixed it by fastening a platform on the cliff's side for him to walk back upon - only to have something else go wrong this time (namely the rope trap catching a truck instead of the Roadrunner and pulling him along after it)!)

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1 at mindspring dot com]

Gummi Bears: Always was a standout show for me. The animation was certainly better than most Saturday morning fare at the time-and those great voices. June Foray, Lorenzo Music, Paul Winchel(Jim Cummings took over his role as Zummi in the last season). Remember that the show switched networks in it's last season(think it went fron NBC to ABC. It ran in Canada (off & on) on Global TV.

Gummi Bears turned 25...and the Disney Afternoon turns 20?


**Logs onto YouTube to find the theme songs for Gummi Bears and Disney Afternoon**

I feel old... LOL XD

The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>**)> Legs are sore from walking...

Someone remembered that Disney's Adventures of the Gummi Bears turned 25 years old yesterday: http://community.livejournal.com/disneyafternoon/44210.html Disney Afternoon wasn't around then because it first aired 20 years ago last Friday (September 10, 1990).
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

JUSTIN - Good point. I'll have to ask Greg Weisman if he had "alligators in the sewers" in mind when he chose the specific Mutate template for Thug.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1 at mindspring dot com]

Todd> Didn't an alligator already show up in the sewers of NYC as the mutate, Thug? :)

Interesting ideas, guys.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]

Looks like someone has dropped the DVD special about the Gathering from the season one DVD on YouTube in high quality. You should have already seen this because you bought the DVD, RIGHT? If not, go buy it already! (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002W4SY0/)

The Gathering special off the Season One DVD is here:

It was filmed during the 8th Gathering in Montreal. The team that produced it filmed interviews with a bunch of the fans there and you'll see bits of their interviews throughout the film.

It might be something fun to share with others. Although sharing a copy of the DVD with others would be MUCH more fun. RIGHT?


I would like to request a question deletion for this: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=12533

Made the mistake of assuming that no one else asked prior since I searched for questions with the Justice League DTV title.

Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
Algernon's comment about Norman Osborn: One of the neat things about Dark Reign is that it gives Osborn the chance to expand his horizons beyond tormenting a twenty nine year old who still lives with his mom.

Wow!! Thanks a ton.
Ashton - [ash82094 at gmail dot com]

Sorry for the double post, but I had an additional thing to say about Percival.

One of Percival's leading traits in the Arthurian cycle was naivete or gullibility. (Not surprising, perhaps, since he was depicted as being raised in a remote forest by his mother, who wanted to keep him ignorant of the outside world, and especially the existence of knights.) He's often depicted as easily duped and something of a fool.

If Percival's present-day identity is Duval, this suggests that he's become the reverse of his former self. If his present-day identity is Peredur, this suggests that he's still suffering under his old gullibility, blind to the true nature of the Society he founded. And if he's both, as Bishansky has suggested - his changes over the past fifteen hundred years must have been remarkable, indeed.

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1 at mindspring dot com]

Probably not. (In Malory, it's stated that Galahad's mother Elaine is dead by the time her son comes to Carbonek to achieve the Grail; we don't know, of course, whether that's a punishment - withholding from her the sight of her son's triumph - or not.)

But the Grail's links to the Illuminati leadership have intrigued me for years - the people entrusted with its guardianship are running a secret society that's responsible for a lot of dark doings. From what we've seen of Duval so far, I'm certain that he must be aware of these. Peredur's a different case; I wonder whether he's being kept in the dark about the Illuminati's activities like the Quarrymen. For that matter, I wonder how much Blanchefleur knows.

If Duval is Valmont (in some aspect) that would indicate that the Illuminati's corruption was already well under way by 997. (And being a king's advisor would be an appropriate role for him - the Illuminati usually seem to be imagined, not as kings, but the corrupt advisors to kings, lurking in the shadows by the throne and sowing evil counsel in their ears, like Wormtongue to Theoden in "The Lord of the Rings".)

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1 at mindspring dot com]

TODD> One could also interpret it as an "ends justify the means" mentality on Pelles' part, which wouldn't be too far from the Illuminati's own mindset. And the fact that Pelles needed to arrange Galahad's birth, suggests that the Grail's guardians aren't necessarily held to as high as standard as those who are permited to enter into Communion with it.
Make a REAL "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!

ALGERNON - I know. (It's been argued that this was one of those "required by the plot" moments - Galahad has to be descended from both Lancelot and the family of Grail guardians, which meant that the writers didn't have too many other options.)
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1 at mindspring dot com]

Todd: My assertion is not that Valmont would want access to Avalon in order to wake Arthur up prematurely, but precisely the opposite; he would want to secure the Hollow Hill personally, so as to ensure that Arthur's awakening would occur at the time best suited for the Society.

And I'm not so sure that Avalon would have worked as such a great base of operations in the Dark Ages; its main benefit in 1995 was its isolation from modern technology, as well as the general lack of belief of magic amongst the populace at large, neither of which were factors at the time. In addition, Valmont would likely have known already that he would not be allowed to bring the Grimorum onto Avalon (the "eat it" solution so unorthodox that I doubt it would have occurred to him), rendering it inadvisable for the location of a permanent base.

Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"Nobody knows what it's like to be the bad man, to be the sad man...behind blue eyes..." - Roger Daltrey of The Who

TODD> Didn't Pelles help decieve Lancelot impregnating his daughter? Hardly a classic example of Christian virtue there.
Make a REAL "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!

Jumping back to the DA comics for a moment: The first one I saw, I remember, was the one where the trio have a run-in with some subway robbers and alligators in the sewers (the trio and the alligators combine to give the robbers one very bad day). Whatever one can say about the execution, I do think it makes sense for alligators to show up in New York's sewers at some point in the Gargoyles Universe, since that urban myth was referred to in the series a couple of times ("The Thrill of the Hunt" and "Hunter's Moon Part One"), and we all know that whenever a legend (ancient or urban) gets mentioned in "Gargoyles", that means it'll eventually show up.

Avalon might appeal to a would-be world-conqueror for the reason that the enhanced Archmage cited in "Avalon Part Two": it gives you a base that no human army could ever reach to take you down in a counter-attack. But if Valmont really is Duval in some way, he'd have another reason for wanting to go to Avalon (though Duval would have to also realize that waking Arthur ahead of schedule is a bad idea - at least, the ending of the Stone of Destiny story indicated that Arthur's premature awakening was a bad thing from the Illuminati's perspective).

Of course, if Duval and Valmont are the same person, that makes it all the more amazing that Duval is allowed anywhere near Carbonek. (Though occasionally the Grail does seem to have strange notions about whom to admit; in Malory, it permits an evil knight named Sir Garlon, who, through some gift of black magic can become invisible and uses it to assassinate people, to enter Carbonek - there might have been some connection to Garlon being portrayed as King Pelles' brother.) Though Bishansky has speculated that Peredur is some kind of tool for Duval to access the Grail, knowing deep down inside that the Grail would never tolerate him in his presence.

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1 at mindspring dot com]

MASTERDRAMON> "Why, then, would getting his hands on "the pathway to Avalon" be such a high priority for the good Brother? Because while very little resides on Avalon at that point (I would not put it past Valmont to know about Oberon's dispersion of His Children, and if he has figured out where the Magus' group disappeared to then I would assume he doesn't regard them as a threat), one person does remain there - one person whose current state would be exceedingly important to Sir Percival."

Oooh nice one, hadn't thought of that. I'm more and more convinced that Duval and Valmont are one and the same.

Make a REAL "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!

Greg X: I came up with that connection the moment I saw discussions here of Valmont and Duval being the same person, actually. Especially potent when you consider that in French, Duval would be literally "of Val."

Another tidbit I noticed, however: Valmont refers immediately to the Grimorum as, "First of the three keys to power...the pathway to Avalon...the very fate of Scotland, all now in my hands!"

The first and the third certainly make sense, but I find it curious that he gives so much weight to the second. I find it unlikely that the spell that transports the user to Avalon is really one of the most useful in the book for generic "bla bla take over the world bla bla of course," which appears to be Valmont's general gameplan, so I think that it is telling that Valmont gives specific note to that.

Why, then, would getting his hands on "the pathway to Avalon" be such a high priority for the good Brother? Because while very little resides on Avalon at that point (I would not put it past Valmont to know about Oberon's dispersion of His Children, and if he has figured out where the Magus' group disappeared to then I would assume he doesn't regard them as a threat), one person does remain there - one person whose current state would be exceedingly important to Sir Percival.

Maybe I'm reading to much into that line, but I thought it was an interesting piece to share with y'all.

Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"Nobody knows what it's like to be the bad man, to be the sad man...behind blue eyes..." - Roger Daltrey of The Who

GREG B> Another interesting little tidbit I stumbled upon while re-reading Clan Building recently, Duval and Valmont seem to have the same eye colour.
Make a REAL "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!

Anthony Tini

Vinnie - [tpeano20 at hotmail dot com]

Well, in an effort to create some conversation, tell me if I am reaching here:

PerciVAL = VALmont = DuVAL.

I'm surprised no one else made the Val connection.

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!]
Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!

Wow. Slow day. 8th
Phil - [p1anderson at yahoo dot com]

Going back to last week's conversation, I tend to look at the non-canon comics the same way I look at fanfiction. It's always a nice surprise when it's on the same level as the canon - when it feels like it could have been an episode of the show or issue of the SLG comic - but i don't expect that. I understand that it's not the same thing and I usually hold non-canon fiction to a different standard. If it's well written or fun, even if it's not exactly like the canon, I'll usually enjoy it.
Demonskrye - [<---The Ink and Pixel Club]

6, then.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

VickyUK - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]


I'm in a punny mood tonight. :3

Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"Nobody knows what it's like to be the bad man, to be the sad man...behind blue eyes..." - Roger Daltrey of The Who

Sir_Griff723@yahoo.com - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
Cheese, it's as good an answer as any.



Greg Bishansky - [<----- Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!]
Make a real "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!

It's always so nice when walking to see the first post of the fence and know I will soon be home.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!