Comment Room Archive : Gargoyles : Station Eight

Arlo> I think I understand what you're saying a little better. Yes Brooklyn (from his own perspective) will be gone for 40 years and ends up with a mate, two hatchlings and a gargoyle beast along the way, but obviously now that he's back home, he's going to be toughing it out with the rest of the clan.

Now as for the comparison, TGC was going to end with the clan seperated without the intents to bring them back before the episode ended, but the Timedancer story ends with the entire clan back together (refering to Lex and Hudson's London trip), with more members than before.

Furthermore, the problem with TGC's planned ending is that the characters behave out of character, whereas with Greg's finale comic story, no one behaves out of the ordinary.
Antiyonder
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:22:53 pm EDT from 50.46.17.45

I think what is also comes down to is that "Clan Building" was meant to be an introductory story, it was all set up for stories that would come later also. Unfortunately, Disney raised the licensing fee, and SLG could no longer afford it. So, yeah, if you don't know about the Master Plan, the end of "Phoenix" can be jarring... I think we have to keep in mind that Weisman wasn't trying to bring things to an end so much as he was setting up a new beginning.

He gave us a small taste of where things would go with the Radio Play. We got to see Brooklyn's relationship with Broadway and Lexington play out a bit as they dealt with his return. While that overall story is not canon, he kept everyone in character and elements there might, and probably will end up in canon sometime though.

I guess, and I don't know if it makes sense, I view "Clan Building" as "Gargoyles" getting cancelled after "Awakening Part Five." Or after "Enter Macbeth."
Greg Bishansky
Elisa Maza, why don't you just take that "sodie pop" can and stick the straw right into New York's eye!
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:12:38 pm EDT from 68.199.5.105

Antiyonder> I can understand the point that Gargoyles is a show in which the characters evolve, and change happens. But I think the questioning we're exploring now is how much change is believable, and how much is just flat out inconsistent with the story? Remember how offended many fans were when they learned of the original plan for the TGC finale, with the clan giving up, Goliath and Elisa moving to Chicago, Broadway and Lex (I think it was them) going on their own World Tour, and yada yada?

I'm not saying there were other reasons why the fans were so offended. But in my opinion, a big part was because of how "Not Gargoyles" all of that was. The whole show had been about trying to get the acceptance of humans, so to just end with them giving up?! And then the fact that they not just give up, the clan actually breaks apart, when one of the main themes of the show had been ABOUT clan and family staying together.

So in my opinion, that's sort of what I feel right now about this whole Timedancer arc. I feel this whole thing about Brooklyn spending 40 years away from the clan, starting his own clan, and then coming back a much different person (I understand tidbits would be the same, but still) is just "Not Gargoyles," in the same way that the TGC finale was "Not Gargoyles." Maybe it's not "Not Gargoyles" to as great of a degree. But it's still "Not Gargoyles," in my opinion.
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:02:35 pm EDT from 71.250.204.229

Arlo>

"Maybe it's because Gargoyles is largely a show about a clan getting through the hard times together, and now the Brooklyn we know is basically gone."

That's a hard time to get through together.

(Religious Studies 101, though not canonical, actively alluded to this).

"Plus he didn't go through the hard times with the clan, he went through them by himself and then with his new clan that he started."

If anything, I felt that strongly reinforced the notion of family. Brooklyn has returned grown up and with a family of his own. It's a testament to the strength of family that he survived with them and a testament that they are accepted with open arms on the arrival home (it also speaks multitudes of Katana that she has no issue with this being her home and clan, Angela being so straightforward about holding her egg aside).

I felt it was a particularly powerful message and a celebration of the family theme of the series.

"Aside from the first two issues, we never got any indication that Goliath was going through this crisis of worrying how his clan was going to continue."

Think back to Reawakening and how it bookended Awakening. Awakening had Goliath thrust away from his life and purpose, with Reawakening reinstating it.

Nightwatch and Phoenix compare similarly. Nightwatch began with the whole world against the Manhattan Clan, the world and protectorate they made their own seeking their destruction. Goliath's arc throughout Clan Building is a bit up and down, emotionally, but I really see Thailog as a major element that justifies the beginning of Phoenix. Thailog is the image of a gargoyle serving an agenda very against everything Goliath stands for. A battle with him amidst all this Quarrymen business is just going to cement how wrong his world is really becoming. Goliath is very optimistic, but being "healed, but not whole" very much describes him in this entire storyline.

As Gargoyles is through the prism of Goliath, his emotions ultimately, on some level, influence the story. It serves as an appropriate bookend for him to ponder on the world manifesting in Nightwatch, and I'd rather him ponder in the relevant act rather than the first two. The de facto "Timedancer" pilot is three stories, not one. There's nothing wrong, structurally, with how that worked.

"Then one day in the very last issue, we see him worrying about it, and then a few pages later, problem solved!"

The problem wasn't solved, Goliath was filled with optimism. Distinct difference.

"And he isn't nearly as astonished or taken back by it as he should be."

I disagree. I feel he SHOULDN'T be taken aback. In his worry, he sees the new addition of Coldstone, Coldfire, Katana, Nashville, and Egwardo. Two are SOULS who could not be destroyed by the massacre at Wyvern and the rest are the family of a gargoyle clearly brutalized and aged by a journey beyond immediate comprehension but for the sake of returning to his old family. Against odds that can only be described as ABSURD, these beings have come to the family.

Being a "stranger in a strange land" has never reaped greater benefits!

I can see a lot of problems and issues coming up in, say, Manhattan or whatever planned installments I hope are seen. But they aren't issues for this story and never felt like it to me.

"But instead it's "Oh, the Pack is at Time Square? Okay, you'll have to tell me all about it later. And look, our clan has expanded! What a happy ending!""

I sure as hell would celebrate this with kicking Wolf in the face.

"The thing is Gargoyles, at least to me, isn't a children's show."

You're right: It's all ages with a demographic of children.

"It isn't a simplistic story, it isn't a story in which characters lack the depth to want to do something when the friend they know and love has just disappeared and been replaced with an older version, and it isn't a story in which a happy ending is reached two pages after the problem is introduced. Everything about those last few scenes were just poorly executed, in my opinion."

I'd argue you're confusing simplicity with "issues not thematically appropriate for this story."
Harlan Phoenix
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:59:12 pm EDT from 216.96.89.238

Arlo> "It's just the disappearing and reappearing 40 years older with a wife and kids and all that didn't feel like "Gargoyles" to me. I mean I guess I could've believed it if it'd happened to a minor character. But not one of the main protagonists. Not sure why."

Actually, I find that the reason you disagree with it is a reason why it fits. Gargoyles is a story in which the status quo can and would be permanently changed. I mean in any other program:

- Goliath and Elisa would remain at the "will they/won't they" stage in their not relationship and get together by the series end. And this isn't just a kids show/cartoon thing. Many writers believe that there is no drama or entertainment value in letting a couple grow over the series.

- Xanatos would never have had a son or gotten married to Fox.

- Infact, the roster of The Pack would have had little to no changes. Upgrade maybe, but member change unlikely.

- The Manhattan Clan would definitely be the last of their kind (No Angela to join them).

- For that matter, the clan would remain a secret from the public.

"Maybe it's because Gargoyles is largely a show about a clan getting through the hard times together, and now the Brooklyn we know is basically gone. This older, wiser person isn't the same guy. Plus he didn't go through the hard times with the clan, he went through them by himself and then with his new clan that he started. It just felt off to me."

He's still likely going to be around, and will just as likely be going through the hardtimes with his clan. As for what he will be like, I imagine we'd see familiar traits from time to time.
Antiyonder
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:53:42 pm EDT from 50.46.17.45

Actually, Greg has commented that there would be spans of the Timedance where Brook would be in a certain place/time without interuption for a while. 2198 is one of these and I believe Greg hinted that Brook might have spent months or years in Feudal Japan. Even his shorter trips were not all that short. It seemed like he was in 997 Scotland for nearly a week.

I imagine there were times when Brook had not seen the Phoenix for years and had begun to wonder if it would ever return to him again.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Queen? We have no queen..." - Goliath, "Enter Macbeth"
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:26:34 pm EDT from 99.92.109.252

Rebel> Well let's look at some other things that have happened in the Gargoyles Universe, starting with "City of Stone." The story of a young prince whose father is killed, growing up poor and then getting his revenge is very cliche. But Weisman kept it interesting because he added enough interesting stuff to keep it from being overdone. There's the Hunter, this epic character who wants his revenge on the gargoyle who marked him, there's Macbeth's teaming up with the gargoyle in question, there's Gruoch being married to the killer, which the threat of it happening might be cliche but I don't think anyone really expected the wedding to happen. And then there's the fact that in the background, we know Macbeth isn't a hero, he's a villain, so we're wondering what's going to happen to him to make him that way.

Another cliche is Xanatos, the handsome billionaire who saves the clan. We expect him to be a good guy in the beginning, but Weisman keeps it interesting by making him out to be the bad guy. Same thing with Demona. We start out thinking this is a simple story about bigotry, but then there's a twist: bigotry isn't limited to humans, gargoyles have it too, and Goliath's own love betrayed him.

So yes, all story telling has to use some tropes that we're all familiar with. But good story telling knows how to take those tropes and twist them up enough that they create something new and original. And in my opinion, that's missing from that Hunter revelation. This isn't a cliche which has been made fun and exciting, it's just a cliche. It's been told a million times before, and there's nothing whatsoever which is interesting about it.
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:25:53 pm EDT from 71.250.204.229

Harlan> 1. Well like I've said, just the whole notion about him disappearing and then reappearing as a much older person. The first two issues of that "Timedancer" arc felt in-series to me. It's just the disappearing and reappearing 40 years older with a wife and kids and all that didn't feel like "Gargoyles" to me. I mean I guess I could've believed it if it'd happened to a minor character. But not one of the main protagonists. Not sure why. Maybe it's because Gargoyles is largely a show about a clan getting through the hard times together, and now the Brooklyn we know is basically gone. This older, wiser person isn't the same guy. Plus he didn't go through the hard times with the clan, he went through them by himself and then with his new clan that he started. It just felt off to me.

Plus, (again, not trying to offend anyone here) I think the execution was poorly done. Aside from the first two issues, we never got any indication that Goliath was going through this crisis of worrying how his clan was going to continue. Then one day in the very last issue, we see him worrying about it, and then a few pages later, problem solved! And he isn't nearly as astonished or taken back by it as he should be. I mean younger Brooklyn just disappeared and is trapped in time, he's confronted with this older Brooklyn who isn't really the same person. Yeah, he was surprised, but not nearly as much as he should've been. He should've been trying to find out what the hell happened, demanding answers, trying to find a way to get back his younger friend who's just disappeared and is lost in time. But instead it's "Oh, the Pack is at Time Square? Okay, you'll have to tell me all about it later. And look, our clan has expanded! What a happy ending!"

The thing is Gargoyles, at least to me, isn't a children's show. It isn't a simplistic story, it isn't a story in which characters lack the depth to want to do something when the friend they know and love has just disappeared and been replaced with an older version, and it isn't a story in which a happy ending is reached two pages after the problem is introduced. Everything about those last few scenes were just poorly executed, in my opinion.

2. Well I personally don't like cliches, and I thought most people didn't. I'm not going to hold myself to that, because I'm sure there probably are some stories in which I might appreciate a cliche. But I think the thing is for a cliche to be appreciated, there has to be SOME level of uniqueness to it. Maybe the cliche has to be introduced when you least expect it. The thing with cliches is we're all used to them, so to be entertaining, there has to be some level of originality. It can't JUST be a cliche. And to me, that's what the wholoe Hunter revelation thing was in that issue. We had a great story that was fresh and original and epic, and it got turned into something much more boring and overdone. I guess it also has to do with my expectations for the series, since it's always been a great one, with original ideas. When I watch Gargoyles, I'm just not expecting to see The Sword in the Stone.

I guess that isn't the best explanation, but I'm not sure if I can really explain it any better.
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:15:22 pm EDT from 71.250.204.229

Kinda have to agree with Harlan here. I don't think cliches are inherently bad. I think how a cliche is executed is what makes it bad or not.

The way I think of it, most cliches, tropes, archetypes, etc., have all been around for a long time and they are all going to continue to be around for a long time. It is rare indeed for anyone to come up with a story and plot that is truly original, or characters that are truly unique. These things that make up stories, in a way they are like music notes. Composers aren't out there inventing new music notes. They are coming up with new ways to string them together to make something pretty. You could even interpret a particular cliche as being like a classic piece of music. We don't throw out classic pieces of music just because they are old. We keep them around and try to play them really well.
Rebel
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:04:30 pm EDT from 71.77.70.195

Arlo> Two questions.

1. What about Brooklyn's whole deal at the end of Clan Building felt "out of series" for you.

2. What's so inherently bad about a cliche?
Harlan Phoenix
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:58:09 pm EDT from 216.96.89.238

IIRC, Sam Beckett was only able to travel to time periods within his own lifetime, from his birth up until the accident that sent him hurtling through time. Which QL only a couple of decades to work with.

Timedancer by contrast would end up spanning from the Mesozoic Era to 2198 AD at least.
Algernon
Man, 2010 was a crazy year. Remember when the monolith turned Jupiter into a star? Good times.
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:50:40 pm EDT from 86.41.114.106

BrainiaC> Haha, okay, my apologies. Stupid typo. Don't know where I got Branian from.

Rebel> That's an excellent point, and now that I think about it you're probably right. I guess I just didn't like the way the last two issues of the comic were executed. But you're right, the idea I have of Timedancer may be off, and it very well could have ended up being a great series, especially if Weisman was producing it. If it had the sort of variety you describe, then I agree it would have been different enough from Quantum Leap that I wouldn't complain. I also like your point about Castaway. It works for me, and like I said, I prefer to think of TGC as something going on in the background, but which we just haven't seen in any coherent manner yet.

Harlan Phoenix> I agree with your point about the Clan Building arc. Something was needed. Just the part about Brooklyn coming back the way he did felt too "out of series" to me. We definitely had to be building up for something... just not that. At least, that's the way I see it.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the clicheness of the Hunter legacy. Or maybe I just haven't read the same fiction as you. The thing is if Gillecomgain had genuinely been a peasant boy because his grandfather didn't want to provide for him, then I'd say "Sure, guess you have to go there." But it's the fact that he wasn't that ruins it for me. The story isn't historically accurate, it's an attempt to write a fictional story about historical characters which adds something new that didn't occur in the history. That's fine and good, but the thing it adds is cliche. So it sort of ruins the whole Hunter story for me. I liked it better the old way.
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:36:30 pm EDT from 71.250.204.229

Arlo > "So it's more vague than just "Person travels through time." But the problem for me is that there are too many similarities. "Person travels through time AND has no control over it AND wants to get home AND finds himself in a random time each week AND has to complete some quest AND when he does he gets sent to the next episode."

Keep in mind, we never actually got to see the Timedancer spin-off executed. We got a small taste of it, but that was only the tip of the iceberg. The way I see it, Brooklyn's adventure would have probably had a lot of variation. I don't know that he would always be sent to a new location with each episode. I feel like he probably stayed in some locations for months or even years at a time. His "quests" in those locations might have taken up half of a season. In some locations, he might have spent less than 5 minutes. I hate to bring up The Gargoyles Saga here, but I think I remember one "episode" of TGS Timedancer that had Brooklyn flitting about on numerous adventures that were all extremely brief. I think I remember him falling into a tree and knocking an apple onto Isaac Newton's head, for instance. I'm not saying that I think that specific incident would have happened, but I think events similar to that could have happened--tiny little brief drop-offs that wouldn't have made sense to Brooklyn, but would have had an enormous effect on life as we know it. And I suspect his adventures would not have always been so cut-and-dried as "Brooklyn arrives at the place X in the year Y and saves the day." Ultimately, Brooklyn would have been fulfilling his role in the time stream. That doesn't mean that he would always be successful in everything he attempted; sometimes he might have failed miserably. This means that it's quite possible that Brooklyn's arrival and involvement might have occasionally spelled disaster for innocent people. Not on purpose of course.

I guess what I'm saying is that we can't necessarily say for sure how good or how bad or how "out of series" Timedancer would have been if we've never seen it executed. I admit, if I was watching comic issues 10 - 12 on TV, I might be quite alarmed at the turn of events. But if I started watching Timedancer the spin-off along with watching the main Gargoyles series, I think eventually I would start to think, "Oh okay. This is actually pretty cool."
Rebel
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:14:36 pm EDT from 71.77.70.195

Arlo> Even if it wasn't a backdoor pilot (or originally intended to be one), saying it didn't feel right via maintext also doesn't make much sense: "Clan Building" is an arc tied together by stories with the same core repercussion of "expanding the clan". Nightwatch and The Journey set our foundation, while the "Double Date" truly established the Labyrinth Clan. The Stone of Destiny story both "expanded" the London Clan and officially recruited Coldstone and Coldfire into Clanhattan (tryin' it out).

If Brooklyn DIDN'T come back with a vagrant clan of Katana, Gnash, and Egwardo...I'd feel like we'd have a solid finale that came thematically apropos of nothing and did nothing to truly resolve Clan Building's core thematic tenet. As for something "cliche" occurring in the backstory of the Hunter legacy...I'd rather something that archetypal and recognizable occur in history, where that cliche/archetype isn't "new", rather than fiction of the present day. Though as my love of the new Thundercats may attest, I have little issue with concepts cropping up now and again. I like that this particular one was fitted into a historical context. I thought it was an entertaining usage and I'm not even particularly big into historical accuracy.
Harlan Phoenix
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:11:45 pm EDT from 216.96.89.238

Aw, don't worry Arlo, you're not gonna tick me off...

Arlo> "Branian"

...except with the name butchery.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:11:36 pm EDT from 174.101.242.133

One possible way to interpret Castaway's comment in "Angels of the Night" about the Gargoyles protecting people is that maybe, in Castaway's mind, the Gargoyles are still evil beings who have taken to protecting others as a way to trick humanity into thinking that they are not evil. If the Gargoyles really were evil, doing heroic deeds to try to hide their evil to lure humanity into believing they are noble would certainly be more devious than just being outright evil. It's still a stretch, and I would have liked to have a TGC episode where Castaway actually says something to this effect, but it's one possibility.
Rebel
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:01:23 pm EDT from 71.77.70.195

Wow, didn't realize so many people were going to post in the time it took to write that. Okay, I really hope I'm not pissing anybody off, because this is really just intended to be a friendly debate.

Harlan Phoenix> That's a good point, and I agree a spin-off shouldn't feel like its original. That's why in spite of it not making sense to me, I did try to keep an open mind for all these years. Maybe it was just seeing the way it was presented in the Gargoyles comic and not its own spin-off that turned me off. It just didn't seem believable to me. But even just as far as the in-show logistics, I just don't see Brooklyn (or any main protagonist) disappearing and then reappearing as a much older, much wiser character. It just feels too "out of show" for me. (I'm assuming that the regular Gargoyles series would have continued with the older Brooklyn being a major character.)

Branian & Algeron> Again, I guess this comes down to the fact that we all have our different ideas about when a show comes too close to being another show. I'll admit I never got into Lost, but from what I understand, there are enough differences to distinguish it from Gilligan's Island. Like I said, it's the overall plot that I'm thinking about, and not just the very vague genre it belongs to. I wouldn't say the plot of Gilligan's Island is as simple as "Several strangers are stranded on an island and want to get off," anymore than I would say the plot of Star Wars is "Space battles take place." I think the plot is like the formula for a show. It describes the overall idea, and how most episodes are going to go. So it's more vague than just "Person travels through time." But the problem for me is that there are too many similarities. "Person travels through time AND has no control over it AND wants to get home AND finds himself in a random time each week AND has to complete some quest AND when he does he gets sent to the next episode." For me, there are just too many similarities. But I understand everyone has their own definition of when the similarities become too much.
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:55:41 pm EDT from 71.250.204.229

Greg B> Thanks for the kind words. I agree, it is good that we're at least having an entertaining discussion, although we obviously don't agree on everything.

That is a good point about Demona scaring herself into being afraid of humans. I never saw the scene that way, but it does give it a whole new depth. I guess you saw time travel as being a bigger part of the series than I did. I agree that time travel is a big part of the storyline. But for me, taking a series in which the number of episodes involving time travel can be counted on the fingers of one hand, and then throwing in this plot in which one of the main protagonists time travels for twenty (or whatever) years straight and comes back being a completely different character is just too out there. I do view it as a sort of Jump the Shark moment in a way.

I can understand your point about the historical accuracy. But the problem is it isn't actually historically accurate, it's Weisman's attempt to take an already great story and make it more historically accurate. As far as I know, there's no indication that Gillecomgain's father actually was the son of a peasant. And we also aren't sure Gille was the one who killed Findlaech. Some sources say he was, but other sources say otherwise, and some historians have tried to argue that Macbeth's adoption of his son could indicate that his marriage to Gruoch was following an old tradition of taking a slain friend's wife and raising his son as your own - which would make sense, if they were related.

So the issue is Weisman has realized his story (which is a great story) wasn't entirely accurate, and he's already portrayed Gillecomgain as being a poor peasant boy, so he's trying to hold it all together and make it historically accurate by throwing in this thing about them being related, but their father didn't want to share his fortune so now Brigti hates him. And the problem is the solution he's found is a very cliched, overly-done thing in literature. I almost get the feeling that he's expecting this to be some huge shocker for Gargoyles fans, when the feeling I get is "Come on, heard it before!" With all due respect to Weisman, he's enough of a creative genius that I would really expect something better from him. And with all due respect to your position, I don't think it's quite fair to argue "Well it's historically accurate," when it really isn't. It isn't accurate to portray Gillecomgain as a peasant boy who's poor because his grandfather didn't want to share his fortune. The overall blood lines are accurate, but Weisman has held them together with a very cliched story now. So in my opinion, this sort of even ruins the great story that we already had.

One final note I'll make because I know this is already getting to be too long of a post is that you and Antiyonder make some good points about the inconsistencies of characterization in TGC and MC. And I agree with your points. But actually I just watched TGC again a few weeks ago, and I noticed I don't think the Quarrymen's behavior is as inconsistent as I had thought before. Certainly, they lack depth, and it doesn't make any sense that Castaway knows Gargoyles are protectors and still wants to exterminate them. But if we take our cue from Weisman's own words, the way to interpret Gargoyles is to understand that we're only being shown certain scenes. I noticed that the canon comics barely even mention the Quarrymen again after the first two issues (which I also think fans would be complaining about if this had been in TGC). I sort of feel like all those TGC battles with them were sort of going on in the background. After all, it doesn't make sense that they just disappeared. So I'll say I think TGC could be a part of the Gargoyles Universe, just not a part which has been shown to us in any sort of coherent fashion.
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:44:04 pm EDT from 71.250.204.229

A key difference between Quantum Leap and Timedancer is that, other than Al, Sam was cut off from everyone he cared about (not that he could really remember them). Brooklyn will FIND who he really cares about over the course of his series and bring them along. In addition, going by the finale of QL, Dr. Sam Beckett never made it home. Brooklyn does.

Oh, and Algernon, Scott Bakula did fight off an alien invasion in the twenty-second century as well as travel back in time (though not to feudal Japan). Of course, that's a completely different series. Heh-heh-heh.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:34:44 pm EDT from 174.101.242.133

ARLO> As someone does have a passing familiarity with Quantum Leap, I think your argument doesn't hold much water. Yes the basic premises of Quantum Leap and Timedancer sound vaguely similiar, but only when described in the most vague and generic manner. Once you actually look at the particular details of each story, they're like apples and steam engines. Unless of course I missed the episode where Scott Bakula traveled to fuedal Japan or helped fight off an alien invasion in the 22nd century.

To my mind, saying Timedancer is exactly like Quantum Leap is like saying Lost is exactly like Gilligan's Island, or that Star Trek: Voyager is exactly like Homer's Oddessy
Algernon
Man, 2010 was a crazy year. Remember when the monolith turned Jupiter into a star? Good times.
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:26:15 pm EDT from 86.41.116.34

Harlan Phoenix> "Likewise, nothing about Legend of Korra sounds like The Last Airbender."

Except the overarching title James Cameron basically forced on it.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:23:40 pm EDT from 174.101.242.133

On one level, he's correct. Timedancer, conceptually, doesn't feel like a "Gargoyles story". Now, I think the story as presented and resolved in Clan Building does. But Timedancer itself, an entire series about Brooklyn chrono boogeying to the Phoenix's temporal tune, is less like a Gargoyles story...but, that's like saying Angel doesn't feel like a Buffy the Vampire story. Well...congrats for pointing that out, but it's not supposed to feel like one. It's supposed to feel like Angel. I'd imagine Timedancer would rather feel like Timedancer than Gargoyles.

Likewise, nothing about Legend of Korra sounds like The Last Airbender. Lou Grant was a drama in the face of its sitcom roots. I thought Bad Guys felt like its own story despite its roots. I would hope Timedancer would feel the same (and conceptually, it has no choice but to).

Now, if you're arguing Timedancer simply would not occur in the world described by the Gargoyles Universe...well...it genre blends enough that the notion this feels out of place from an in-universe (rather than meta/thematic) perspective is a bit silly. We met Anansi AND an alien, they're in the vacation slides.

So I think you're correct in the wrong way. No spin off, per se, should feel like its whole should be told in the series proper no matter what franchise we're talking about. It shouldn't feel QUITE like Gargoyles. A spin off should feel like its own entity. As for in-universe logistics...I'd disagree. The first two seasons already covered the bases necessary.

(As for TGC, I liked the resolution of "Seeing Isn't Believing" despite the miswritten root of its core problem. Elisa would trust Goliath no matter what by this point, but I appreciated the un-Saturday morning notion of picking the liar based on who's dishonestly trying to save face.)
Harlan Phoenix
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:18:16 pm EDT from 216.96.89.238

Oh, absolutely, Antiyonder; I don't disagree there. I just meant that the oly way it could work is if the episode order isn't the actual chronology (which did happen in canon, after all).

As to your second point (the arrest of Sevarius), I'd suggest the usage of human embryonic stem cells, but that breakthrough didn't actually occur until 1998.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:14:28 pm EDT from 174.101.242.133

I meant to say that the non canon material doesn't succeed with attention to detail.
Antiyonder
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:08:33 pm EDT from 50.46.17.45

Antiyonder's last point about Castaway has often annoyed me as well. The only way I could ever think of it working was that "...For It May Come True" actually happens a fair bit AFTER "Angels in the Night" in terms of chronology.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:07:53 pm EDT from 174.101.242.133

ARLO> I just want to add this is a great discussion. I obviously don't agree with you, but we're all having a good, lively, honest debate here that is going quite well. Thanks.
Greg Bishansky
Elisa Maza, why don't you just take that "sodie pop" can and stick the straw right into New York's eye!
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:03:06 pm EDT from 68.199.5.105

To clarify, I meant that Fox might show some tears (as she did after Oberon's depature), but not to the degree that Ransom had her doing. And while we're at it, the Goliath monologue is bad enough, but is made worse considering that Pat Doyle had no interest in blackmailing the Xanatos' for money.

As for giving Weisman more leeway, well Gargoyles as opposed to most franchises that get new writers are more creator oriented. There's an attention to detail that TGC and the MC Gargoyles (which at least did better than TGC) succeed at.

I mean TGC couldn't even keep track of it's own continuity. Examples:
- For his first few appearances, Castaway sees gargoyles to be an evil species, yet his final appearance shows him stating them to be protectors.
- How and why did Sevarius get arrested? Even on TGC, he didn't do anything publically that could put him in trouble with the law.
- Castaway was arrested for endangering the city in "For it May Come True", yet in the finale, he's treated as a model citizen.
Antiyonder
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:00:28 pm EDT from 50.46.17.45

ARLO> Let me preface this by saying I have never seen Quantum Leap, so I never really had this problem. I can see how others would, though.

As for time travel not playing a big part in the series, I respectfully disagree. It may have only had a few episodes devoted to it, but I think it played a pretty big part.

Thanks to time travel, Xanatos was able to lay the first stepping stones to make his fortune; Demona put such a scare into her younger self that she feared the humans enough to unknowingly set the events leading to the Wyvern Massacre into motion; the Archmage was able to order the Weird Sisters to link Demona and Macbeth and make them immortal; Sir Griff was able to survive into the 90's and become one of Arthur's knights (okay, this would have been more important had we gotten Pendragon).

While that's not a huge chunk of events, those are very, very, very crucial and important events.

As for "what if TimeDancer showed up in TGC" well, I always felt that one can't argue a hypothetical. It didn't show up in TGC, it didn't show up in Marvel, it showed up in the Master Plan and eventually the comics. I can only judge it based on what we got, not on what ifs. And I loved that story. Your mileage may vary on that, but I loved it. Could it sustain an entire series? I don't know, we haven't seen it put into practice yet. I am certain that there are several great stories in there though.

As for making Gillecomgain and Mail Brighti relatives of Findlaech and Macbeth, well... cliched or not, it is historically accurate. And I think it adds a new dimension to the whole set up.

Think about it though, if you were an expert on that era and the people, would you prefer to read and say "damn, Weisman got this wrong" or to say "hey, this is well researched, look how much he got right."

One of the big reasons I hated the movie "Gladiator" was because of how historically inaccurate it was. The Republic never comes back. But, a lot of people did love that movie so again, your mileage may vary.

As for Marvel, well, again I thought a lot of the cast were out of character and they got the biology quite long. For example, since when do they need a lightning bolt to hatch an egg? I know we never quite got how the eggs work in the show, but I do think it was in the Series Bible, and the crew who worked on the comic book did have access to the Series Bible, they just chose to ignore it. But they did have Beth Maza, they did have Gen-U-Tech. All that was in the Series Bible.

Also, have you read #6 lately? I thought the dialogue was spectacularly bad at various points. And Xanatos's characterization was very off. He was trying to shoot the gargoyles with the Medusa Device and permanently turn them to stone? Why? That defeats the purpose of waking them up in the first place, and it's wasteful. And we all know how much Xanatos hates waste.

Again, your mileage may vary.

As for your comment that some things are tolerated more because they're Weisman's? Well, I genuinely love just about all of his ideas and plans, I don't just tolerate them. But I do think there is some truth behind that, but I can't speak for anybody else. At the end of the day, I think a lot of people trust him to execute these well because he has earned that trust many times over.

Of course, this is all just my opinion, I may be wrong.
Greg Bishansky
Elisa Maza, why don't you just take that "sodie pop" can and stick the straw right into New York's eye!
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 2:45:18 pm EDT from 68.199.5.105

TGC is looked down upon more for bad execution and lack of coherentcy. Ok, Fox might be saddened by her son being kidnapped, but as Greg B would put it, she'd kick ass and take names. Not crying and giving into the blackmail.

Or look at the Quarrymen. One minute they view themselves to be on a holy crusade, and down the line they become your basic 1980s cartoon villains.
Antiyonder
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 2:44:20 pm EDT from 50.46.17.45

That's true. There are some differences, of course. But in my opinion, when the overall plot is identical to another show's overall plot, there's a problem. I guess we all just have our definition of when we think a plot is too similar to another show, and in my opinion, Time Dancer crosses that line. I thought Sliders crossed that line a little too, actually, so I can see that Timedancer could still have been a decent show.

But yeah, I do feel that it was a sort of Jump the Shark moment in a way. It just seemed "out of series," I guess I'll call it. I guess now is a good time to return to my main point, which is that I think it's different enough from the show we're used to that fans would have been complaining if it had appeared in TGC. I mean if you think about it, time travel has never been a HUGE part of the series. Sleeping for a thousand years has, but not this constant jumping from time to time thing. And we never really had any inkling that that was where Brooklyn, or any character, was headed. He's never been associated with time travel in any way, and it's never been a big issue for the series. If something like that just appeared out of nowhere in TGC, I think fans would be talking about how ridiculous it is.

I understand it's about execution, but in my opinion, the Marvel Comics aren't that bad themselves. Yet fans often complain about how ridiculous their plots were. I think fans tend to tolerate a lot more from Weisman than they would from any other writer, which is ultimately unfair to the other writers, since they were given permission to write the stories, and in the case of TGC, sort of forced into it without being given any real time to familiarize themselves with the series.
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 2:18:54 pm EDT from 71.250.204.229

Arlo> Except that Brooklyn doesn't take over someone's body when he arrives into a time period.
Antiyonder
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 1:56:42 pm EDT from 50.46.17.45

Sounds more like you consider Timedancer a "Jump the Shark" moment. Still, you're forgetting the tenets of time travel in the Gargyoles universe. Brooklyn can't put right what once went wrong because history is immutable. He travels through time for all those years because he did, he must, he always shall.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 1:54:09 pm EDT from 174.101.242.133

I guess what I'm getting at is this:
http://www.bofunk.com/video/8097/curious_case_of_forrest_gump_vs_benjamin_button.html
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 1:48:25 pm EDT from 71.250.204.229

Matt> Thanks for the kindness and open mindedness. You're right, "out of character" was the wrong term, because I didn't know what the right one would be. What I meant is it doesn't feel like Gargoyles to me. I don't mean the issues specifically, but just the idea that Brooklyn continually jumps through time until he's 40. It just didn't feel like that's something that would happen in the Gargoyles Universe I know - at least, not right now. And it didn't feel like something that was believable to me. I understand that "out of character" is about how a character responds to situations. But I do think there's something to be said for how you choose to develop a character. And Brooklyn going from the depressed, trying to get away from Angela and Broadway guy to jumping through time on a new adventure every month just didn't feel to me like it was realistic. And just the idea of someone disappearing and reappearing 20 years older sounds like something I might see on a lot of other shows, but not this one. That particular scene in the comic just wasn't believable to me at all. And on that note...

Masterdramon> I agree that a lot of it is about execution. And I can understand your point that Gargoyles is a bastard series. But I don't think comparing 2198 to Star Wars is the same thing. 2198 isn't Star Wars because not every show about space battles is Star Wars. "Space battles" is a very broad idea that can encompass a lot of different plots. On the other hand, Timedancer isn't just similar to Quantum Leap because it's about time travel, the plots are actually identical. The plot is:

Protagonist is trapped traveling through time and has no control over it, and his ultimate goal is to get back home. In every episode, he's sent to a different time where he has to complete some quest (usually, put right something that once went wrong). When he does, he gets sent to another time, which takes place in the next issue.

That's the plot for both Timedancer and Quantum Leap. You see, it's not just about two different shows both being about time travel. It's about literally having the same plot. It's like having a mathematical equation where you decided to start calling x y instead, but it's still the same basic formula. Timedancer isn't similar to Quantum Leap, Timedancer IS Quantum Leap. You just took out Sam Becket and replaced him with a gargoyle.
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 1:34:34 pm EDT from 71.250.204.229

Yeah, the idea is great, but "Little Anton" didn't really make much sense. For one thing, what part of the Manhattan clan's DNA would create a Gargoyle that's 20 feet tall? And why did Little Anton conveniently not seem to bear any resemblance to any of the Manhattan clan, except Giolath (in build) and Broadway (in face shape)?
Rebel
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 1:19:10 pm EDT from 71.77.70.195

Masterdramon> '...I genuinely do like ideas such as Sevarius combining multiple gargoyles' DNA into one "super-clone"...'

As someone with genetics training, I can indeed tell you the idea has merit. The ability to pick and choose genetic traits is something that the science of molecular genetics attempts to do on a regular basis (along with dog breeders, farmers, and others). However, the visual execution of Little Anton as well as the explanation of extreme amounts of gargoyle DNA to start his metabolism...yeah, it's god-awful. Star Trek technobabble has the advantage of being theoretical technology. Sevarius's "explanation" in that episode was just flat-out nonsensical.

Frankly, I could see Sevarius designing a customized gargoyle using genes from multiple sources. It just wouldn't end up like anything remotely similar to Little Anton.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 12:11:24 pm EDT from 174.101.242.133

Arlo: I'm not sure I would say it makes sense to call the historical Scottish royal family's relationship dynamics "cliched," even if the tropes involved show up quite often in fiction. I am somewhat reminded of this funny little LiveJournal article (http://squid314.livejournal.com/275614.html), which mock-criticizes the History Channel's World War II series for how thoroughly unrealistic it seemed.

And even if that doesn't convince you, it's a pretty small part of the overall story - we don't even learn of Mail Brigti's true relationship to the Clan of Moray until just before he's killed by Valmont's arrows, after all. So it seems like a fairly minor criticism upon which to discount a full two issues as poor quality...but as they say, Your Mileage May Vary, LOL.

As for the rest...well, beyond what Matt just said, execution is everything. Very few of TGC's core ideas were outright bad, including the ones the writers came up with completely on their own, but they were inexperienced with the characters and settings and so pretty much inevitably botched all of them somewhere along the way. Not even counting the springboards that came from Greg W. and the other original staff, I genuinely do like ideas such as Sevarius combining multiple gargoyles' DNA into one "super-clone," one of the Manhattan Clan engaging in a high-profile television interview to raise awareness of their sentience, or greater exploration of the streets of New York and the lives of its homeless outside of the Labyrinth. But none of them were brought to fruition in any sort of satisfying way. Has TCG tried to tackle "Timedancer," my main criticism would likely have ended up being that the episode sucked, not that the idea sucked.

And on that note, in response to your opinions on "Timedancer" in general: "Gargoyles" has always been a decidedly bastard series. By that, I mean that it blends ideas and tropes from a variety of other genres into something that is distinctly its own, including fantasy, science fiction, detective fiction, historical fiction, modern "superhero" fiction (itself quite a bastard), etc. There's no reason why the subgenre of time-travel-based works can't be part of that melting pot, IMHO. Saying that "Gargoyles isn't Quantum Leap" makes about as much sense as criticizing Bad Guys because "Gargoyles isn't Dirty Dozen" or 2198 because "Gargoyles isn't Star Wars" or "Heroes of Ulster" because "Gargoyles isn't Thor."

The Gargoyles Universe is incredibly flexible, which is one of the main reasons that I adore it so. There's no reason why it can't come to accomodate pretty much every possible story Greg W. wants it to and still come together as a cohesive whole, and "Timedancer" is a big part of that.
Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"I wanna know, have you ever seen the rain?" - John Fogerty of Creedence Clearwater Revival
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 11:04:49 am EDT from 66.91.120.80

Arlo> While I don't neccesarily agree with your thoughts, I can mostly understand why you feel that way. And good for you for having the courage for saying so. There are some fans who will feel the need to argue with your points... these are generally the same fans that will disregard everything and anything related to TGC as completly bad. And I do agree with you that those fans would be critical of many Gargoyles things if they had been in TGC.

One point I do want to make is in regards to your "out of character" comment. A character acting out of character has nothing to do with what happens to them. Rather it is determined by how they react to what happened to them. brooklyn being swallowed by a giant time-traveling bird is not out of character. Brooklyn didn't have a choice in the matter. You can hate the story idea, but Brooklyn's character isn't being written wrong. Now if Brook got spit out in 997 Scotland and started sobbing shortly before commiting suicide, that WOULD be out of character and I think most fans would have a problem with that (for a variety of reasons, including that this is out of character for Brook). I don't think we ever saw Brooklyn out of character in the (SLG) comics.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Queen? We have no queen..." - Goliath, "Enter Macbeth"
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:13:54 am EDT from 99.92.109.252

Just my two cents on this whole TGC/Marvel Comic thing:

I liked the canon comic overall, but I have to say, I didn't care much for the last two issues.The revelation that Gillecomgain was related to Findlaech, while more historically accurate than the original story, felt like it was trying a little too hard to push the old "moral man spares young boy's life but it comes back to haunt him," story, which is a bit of a cliche. Also, the revelation that Brigti is Findlaech's brother, and that the reason he's so angry is because their father didn't share his fortune with him because he was the son of a peasant has been overdone, and is taken straight from Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves, among others.

Also, this whole thing about Brooklyn disappearing and then coming back forty years older didn't seem quite like it fit in the Gargoyles Universe. I never really understood that, even years ago when I was just reading Weisman's plans for the show, because Gargoyles isn't Quantum Leap. It's its own series.

All of this isn't to criticize Weisman or Gargoyles, because we all love the series. But the point I'm trying to make is I think what fans consider "out of character" is somewhat subjective. I would go so far as to say that if this whole Timedancer thing had appeared in TGC, I think fans would be complaining about how out of character it was.
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:57:55 am EDT from 71.250.204.229

Darkwing Duck/DuckTales Crossover: So, knowing the arcs for BOOM! comics are typically four-issues long, what's this crossover looking like for DW and DT?

I mean, the current DW arc should end at #16, and the announcement Landon linked to shows #18 as the finale of the crossover?

Richard: I would very much like to see Greg start rambles on SpecSpidey . . . of course, we're still lacking a Hunters Moon ep ramble or two >_>
Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Fri, Aug 5, 2011 6:49:13 pm EDT from 72.201.180.61

I'd just like to point out that BOOM! will have released 19 full, colored issues of Darkwing Duck in 17 months. Gargoyles/Bad Guys took 38. Ah, what could have been.

Oh well, we've lasted this long and I don't plan on going anywhere.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]
posted @ Fri, Aug 5, 2011 5:42:06 pm EDT from 128.101.32.234

LANDON> Tragic but lets be honest, we all knew this was coming. Hopefully the brief yet vibrant success of Boom's Disney Afternoon line will help the higher ups at Disney realise the value of similiar properties. Hint, hint.
Algernon
Man, 2010 was a crazy year. Remember when the monolith turned Jupiter into a star? Good times.
posted @ Fri, Aug 5, 2011 5:29:21 pm EDT from 86.40.1.49

LANDON> Tragic but lets by honest, we all knew this was coming. Hopefully the brief yet vibrant success of Boom's Disney Afternoon line will help the higher up at Disney realise the value in similiar properties. Hint, hint.
Algernon
Man, 2010 was a crazy year. Remember when the monolith turned Jupiter into a star? Good times.
posted @ Fri, Aug 5, 2011 5:28:28 pm EDT from 86.40.1.49

BOOM! Studios confirms the ending/cancellation of all their Disney-licensed comic lines in October: http://blog.newsarama.com/2011/08/05/booms-disney-era-officially-ends-in-october/
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]
posted @ Fri, Aug 5, 2011 5:14:41 pm EDT from 128.101.32.234

Visited Starclipper Comics today, and noticed that they still have a paperback copy of "Bad Guys" on the shelf. While there, I bought a collection of Dan Rosa's Donald Duck stories; it's supposed to be the first volume of a series, though since it was from BOOM! and Disney's severing its connections with it, I fear we may not get to see the other volumes (which would have collected more of Rosa's work). I enjoyed it a lot, especially the first story where Donald tries playing a prank on his nephews, who are studying wild animals for one of their Junior Woodchuck badges, by dressing some farm animals up in weird outfits and parading them past the nephews; unfortunately for Donald, all of those disguises coincidentally resemble various mythical creatures (such as basilisks), which Huey, Louie, and Dewey add to their list. (They were all "real" mythical creatures, too - another case of Rosa's fine research such as that which he displayed in "The Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck".)

The store gave me a free Mickey Mouse comic (a reprint of a 1930's story where Mickey enters Pluto in a dog race) from Fantagraphics Books, and I learned on the back page that Fantagraphics Books (which has already produced excellent reprints of "Peanuts" and "Prince Valiant") will be reprinting Carl Barks' classic Donald Duck and Scrooge McDuck stories, beginning this November. Defnitely something to look forward to.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
posted @ Thu, Aug 4, 2011 8:13:48 pm EDT from 4.244.0.1

In the Spectacular Spider-Man episode, "Destructive Testing", Spidey has a fight with Kraven the Hunter in a museum. I wonder if it's the American Museum of Natural History, the same place Broadway and Lexington fought Hyena to keep her from destroying the Mayan Sun Amulet? Despite Greg saying that he winces when dinosaur skeletons are destoryed in his "The Green" ramble, several dinosaur skeletons were destroyed in the Spider-Man episode. Old habits die hard, I guess.
Richard Jackson
posted @ Thu, Aug 4, 2011 1:07:22 pm EDT from 121.127.81.207

Greg B> No doubt Demona stole her new powers from Superfriends's Giganta since she also seems to have pinched her costume.
Algernon
Man, 2010 was a crazy year. Remember when the monolith turned Jupiter into a star? Good times.
posted @ Thu, Aug 4, 2011 9:41:26 am EDT from 86.40.146.39

Had a dream last night where I had the television on, and caught the beginning of "Awakening Part One" (the part where the word "Awakening" appears on a black screen) - and yet switched channels. I'm not sure why I did that (dreams being what they are) unless I was planning to watch something else I hadn't seen before. I don't think I'll bother analyzing it, either.

BISHANSKY - Yet another tragic (well, "tragic" may be an exaggeration) example of what happens when you don't do the research.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
posted @ Thu, Aug 4, 2011 7:43:41 am EDT from 4.244.0.214

Greg B.: Fee fi fo fum, I think Goliath's so gonna be bummed!

...I know, doesn't really work outside of Irma's mouth. But nevertheless, 'twas obligatory. :D
Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"I wanna know, have you ever seen the rain?" - John Fogerty of Creedence Clearwater Revival
posted @ Thu, Aug 4, 2011 1:12:07 am EDT from 66.91.120.80

The spire on top the Empire State Building was originally intended to be a mooring mast for rigid airships, or so they said when they stuck it on there to claim the "tallest building" title from the Chrysler Building.
Patrick
posted @ Thu, Aug 4, 2011 12:36:25 am EDT from 76.190.226.128

To put it into further perspective.

http://www.everypicture.com/shop/books/aa610302d72bacd6c86419709a3e2c1d/king-kong.jpg

And a real life photo:

http://www.ny-photos.com/images/902/esb_5634_550_dropwm.jpg

Demona should use these powers to kill the Manhattan Clan.
Greg Bishansky
Elisa Maza, why don't you just take that "sodie" can and stick the straw right into New York's eye!
posted @ Thu, Aug 4, 2011 12:02:36 am EDT from 68.199.5.105

Since I'm making fun of the Marvel comic...

http://gargwiki.net/images/2/21/DemonaGoesKong.JPG

That's the Empire State Building. I can only assume Amanda Connor thought Demona had super growth powers, she has to be at least a hundred feet tall in this panel to straddle the Empire State Building like that.

To put it into perspective, that antenna she destroyed is 203 ft tall.

Demona has super growth powers.
Greg Bishansky
Elisa Maza, why don't you just take that "sodie" can and stick the straw right into New York's eye!
posted @ Wed, Aug 3, 2011 11:55:59 pm EDT from 68.199.5.105

Just wanted to say a big THANK YOU for all the hard work you and your team have done and continue to do on Young Justice! I love the series and look forward to the new episodes with much anticipation! :)
Shannon - [iittleshinchan@aol.com]
posted @ Wed, Aug 3, 2011 10:06:52 pm EDT from 75.85.39.136

Here's an overview of the Young Justice panel at SDCC: http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=33621

It covers why Red Arrow is the focus of episode 10, how Miss Martian and Superboy [SPOILER] kiss onscreen and in the recording studio [/SPOILER], and how the series theme led to character selection from the DC Universe.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]
posted @ Wed, Aug 3, 2011 9:12:32 pm EDT from 24.179.151.48

TODD> Nope, the Marvel comic does not top TGC. As bad as it is, it's mostly harmless. TGC actively destroyed the franchise.
Greg Bishansky
Elisa Maza, why don't you just take that "sodie" can and stick the straw right into New York's eye!
posted @ Wed, Aug 3, 2011 8:10:22 pm EDT from 68.199.5.105

Popping in briefly to point out that my latest article at The Ink and Pixel Club is partly about Gargoyles:

http://inkandpixelclub.com/2011/08/we-can-rebuild-them-tv-toons-begging-for-a-remake/

(or just click my name)

I don't really even lurk here anymore, so if you have a response you want me to see, post it in the comments on my site.
Demonskrye - [<---Toons In Need Of Revival]
posted @ Wed, Aug 3, 2011 4:17:47 pm EDT from 146.115.115.75

Supermorff: In that case, better pass that info along to our favorite Boy Wonder. XD
Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"I wanna know, have you ever seen the rain?" - John Fogerty of Creedence Clearwater Revival
posted @ Wed, Aug 3, 2011 2:04:53 pm EDT from 66.91.120.80

Richard> Sorry! Typo in your name. That's what I get for not using the preview function.
Supermorff
posted @ Wed, Aug 3, 2011 1:46:17 pm EDT from 86.182.30.137

Ricahrd Jackson> I'm not sure Bill Bryson looked into it all that much, because 'whelm' was the word first. It's the term when a ship is buffeted by a wave and rocked - being overwhelmed means the wave goes over the ship's deck. 'Underwhelm' is a backwards construction from 'overwhelm'.
Supermorff
posted @ Wed, Aug 3, 2011 1:45:25 pm EDT from 86.182.30.137

From Bill Bryson's book, "The Mother Tongue: English and How It Got That Way", p. 19-20.

"And why, come to that, can we be overwhelmed or underwhelmed, but not semiwhelmed or-if our feelings are less pronounced-just whelmed?"
Richard Jackson
posted @ Wed, Aug 3, 2011 1:26:00 pm EDT from 121.127.66.36

Sorry, I meant "sodie pop", not "soder".
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
posted @ Wed, Aug 3, 2011 8:57:10 am EDT from 4.244.0.206

BISHANSKY - So have the Marvel "Gargoyles" comics unseated the "Goliath Chronicles" from the title of "worst 'Gargoyles' tales ever" (at least, the ones produced by Disney or licensed by it, as opposed to fanfic), or do the "Goliath Chronicles" still hold that dubious distinction? (I suppose that even "soder" would have a difficult time ousting "E--n P-x" or Castaway's B-movie villainy.)
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
posted @ Wed, Aug 3, 2011 8:56:22 am EDT from 4.244.0.206

I'm still waiting for Dr. O'Conner to show up eventually on Formspring. After all even this guy, http://www.formspring.me/DrEgonNexusPax has an account!
;)
(Wait, Egon Pax and Dr. nexus are the same dude? Puts everything in perspective, don't it?)
Anonymous
posted @ Tue, Aug 2, 2011 5:49:28 pm EDT from 173.58.171.116

Because I am evil...

http://gargwiki.net/Haile_O%27Connor
http://gargwiki.net/Colleen
http://gargwiki.net/Greasy_Spoon
Greg Bishansky
Elisa Maza, why don't you just take that "sodie" can and stick the straw right into New York's eye!
posted @ Tue, Aug 2, 2011 1:57:23 pm EDT from 68.199.5.105

Let's not forget that they are sitting there talking about mutilated corpses and all the dude can do is eat a hot dog and think about getting into Elisa's (striped) pants...

And for a good reference to the "sodie pop" part of the problem, refer to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sodavspopvscoke.png
You'll notice that as a St. Louis native, I live in that odd island in the middle of the country that calls it "soda".
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Queen? We have no queen..." - Goliath, "Enter Macbeth"
posted @ Tue, Aug 2, 2011 10:10:11 am EDT from 99.92.109.252

Personally, I find the most annoying thing to be Elisa calling that other character "bub." She is not a certain gruff Canadian.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Tue, Aug 2, 2011 8:21:04 am EDT from 137.183.232.22

If we're gonna take that direction, LOL, then I shall now proceed to take mock-offense at Doctor Arnada pronouncing the name of this state "Hah-why-ee"! ;P
Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"I wanna know, have you ever seen the rain?" - John Fogerty of Creedence Clearwater Revival
posted @ Tue, Aug 2, 2011 6:14:06 am EDT from 66.91.120.80

What I'D like to know is what's with the striped pants?
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"Your psychotronic profile suggests high levels of destructive impulse, which might be why I find you so much to keep around. My own psychotronic profile is... well, never mind about that now." -Durandal
posted @ Tue, Aug 2, 2011 6:11:03 am EDT from 97.102.14.96

Elisa, why don't you just take that "sodie" can and stick the straw right into New York's eye!

Elisa Maza, we work hard, and you do this? You disrespect us in our own house? To call your soda "sodie pop" right in front of us? Who the BLEEP do you think you are! Why don't you take a *** in Fiorello LaGuardia's hat and feed it to Joe DiMaggio's crying ghost on Liberty Island, you *****!

.... sorry, I can't sleep, I'm bored and I felt like paraphrasing. LOL! I think I have a new sig.
Greg Bishansky
Elisa Maza, why don't you just take that "sodie" can and stick the straw right into New York's eye!
posted @ Tue, Aug 2, 2011 4:51:11 am EDT from 68.199.5.105

MATT> Yup. No New Yorker in the history of all existence has ever used the word "pop" in reference to soda. I know this is a regional thing, and no offense to anyone from the regions that do.

Canon Elisa would never say something so ridiculous. And I'm not even getting into the "sodie" part of the equation.

Now I know how Jon Stewart felt when Donald Trump took Sarah Palin to a chain franchise for pizza, stacked his slices, and ate them with a knife and fork. Wait, I already did feel that way, LOL!

For those who don't know, this is what I'm talking about:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-june-1-2011/me-lover-s-pizza-with-crazy-broad

It's pretty much the same thing. If Canon Elisa ever did this, well... I'd assume she was replaced by a clone.
Greg Bishansky
"Cartman gets ten million dollars and Michael Bay gets to keep making movies. There isn't a God." -Kyle
posted @ Tue, Aug 2, 2011 4:28:15 am EDT from 68.199.5.105

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