Comment Room Archive : Gargoyles : Station Eight

I'll agree on the topic of still having a lot of guilt, so therefore knowing, on some level, that she's wrong. And I'll agree that while most of us can understand her, we probably wouldn't have made the same choices (trusting everyone's life but our own to the Captain, etc.).

But I think not being able to come to terms with everything she's done is in part because of everything that's happened to her, and the way life has slapped her in the face when she has tried to do the right thing (like saving young Macbeth and Gruoch so the Hunter gets away). I just feel like those people who criticize Demona are doing so by the standards of most people, and not considering just how much life has broken her.

Anyway, I hope my response to you wasn't what made you choose to drop things, FTBM. I certainly didn't mean to come across like I was criticizing you, just making a point about what you had said.
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Sun, Jul 15, 2012 6:47:56 pm EDT from 173.54.75.76

@Arlo - That's because her motivations are something a "normal person" can understand, and even empathize with. Isn't that why people find her so relatable? Unless I'm just abnormal, which I suppose is a possibility. But as I said before, understanding/explanations are not excuses, and she could have made many different choices than the one she did (going behind G's back and betraying the humans they had sworn to protect, and then not stopping it when she saw things were going off the rails). But also as I said before, to me personally her greater sin was (and on an ongoing basis, IS) her denial, or as Braniac said, the cover-up.

But she does have the capacity to see her own responsibility - where do you think the guilt comes from? She even came close to admitting it once, in COS - watch her face after the Weird Sisters ask her who betrayed Macbeth - she has what alcoholics refer to as a "moment of clarity" ...and then a couple seconds later relapses "None of this is MY fault! etc"

More to the point, Greg W has hinted very strongly that the possibility for redemption is still open to her, in some form or fashion, that she still has the capacity. That's even one of the tag-lines for 2198. So it's not whether she HAS something to redeem herself for - she clearly does, and its also not a question of if she CAN acknowledge that and redeem herself. It's a question of WILL she - and that ain't canon til it's canon.

At any rate, I've pretty much said all I have to say on the subject, so I'm going to bug out. But thanks to everyone for the discussion - this has been a great way to while away the time while my car's been in the shop :)
FTBM2010
posted @ Sun, Jul 15, 2012 6:31:17 pm EDT from 72.37.242.43

I just want to clarify, again, that by "intellectual strength" I mean the ability to acknowledge inconvenient truths, to recognize that your upbringing is wrong, etc. Clearly, Demona has intelligence if she's capable of using magic, as FTBM pointed out. And by "moral strength" I mean the ability to stand up for what you believe in, which is useless if you don't have intellectual strength to tell you what's right and wrong, and you rely on what you've been taught. I'll agree that I should probably find different terms if I'm going to be discussing this in the context of the Gargoyles Universe. I think it's a grey area whether staying true to one's beliefs in the face of danger rather than altering them should be considered intellectual strength or moral strength. I'll agree Demona does do that, and it's not good.

Shaiya & FTBM> I can see Shaiya's point here about Demona literally not having the capacity to see her own responsibility because of what the centuries have done to her. FTBM, even you said "And all the love and lack of jealously in the world on her part didn't change the Princess's behavior and attitude when she assumed authority of the castle." It amazes me how in a few sentences, you can go from really understanding just what those centuries were like for her to saying there's no excuse for it and judging her like she were a normal person who hadn't had this life.
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Sun, Jul 15, 2012 5:13:47 pm EDT from 173.54.75.76

You're missing the point of Demona's character completely. Deep down she knows she messed up. She knows it's her fault. She has enough guilt in her to strangle a mastodon. But instead of accepting that guilt, and absorbing it, she spreads it to everyone else but herself. It's probably the only way she can still function at this point. But deep inside, she knows... she just won't acknowledge it.

Why do you think she despises Elisa as much as she does? Jealousy? Yeah, that's part of it. But Elisa is living proof that Demona is wrong, and Demona cannot have that.

And before anyone points out that she told Brooklyn that perhaps Elisa is the exception that proves the rule... she doesn't really think that. Her voice even bristles when she says it. She was trying to get Brooklyn on her side and telling him what he wanted to hear.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." - Goliath, "The Journey."
posted @ Sun, Jul 15, 2012 3:42:47 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

So here's what I'm seeing as the problem: she:"can't hold the reins" as a leader, she's not responsible for the way she refused to assume and continues to refuse to assume accountability, she must be "relieved from the stresses of being her own leader" - so she can't even hold the reins in her own recovery. Everything that has happened, that will happen, has come and must continue to come from outside of herself. (mostly if not in totality).

You're imposing passivity on a character/personality that is in no way, shape or form a passive one.
FTBM2010
posted @ Sun, Jul 15, 2012 1:28:31 pm EDT from 72.37.242.43

Whee! :)

"I have a hard time seeing her taking orders..."

She has demonstrated that she can take orders and can even follow them, as long as they don't clash with what she thinks ought to be done. The problem with the alliance with MacBeth is that she didn't communicate her concerns- she was too afraid that she was being betrayed. Her past has taught her not to trust.

"...this is of course leaving out the very obvious respect her clan held for her, something I doubt was born out of only fear..."

I have no doubt that she saved the gargoyles in her command several times, and likely this caused them to view her as the most appropriate leader and garnered their respect. Incidentally, I rather doubt they knew of her part in the massacre. The respect was likely due directly to what we now consider her basest flaws- her inability to trust others, her fear that what was left of her family would be smashed. Just because her clan gave her respect doesn't mean she was suited to hold the reins all on her own. When she works together with others, she can be a real gem, and her talents shine through. When she withdraws and looks out only for herself, she becomes more and more rigid. I think she did rule to a good extent through fear- her clan's fear of outsiders.

"Except that's exactly what it seems to me that you are doing."

It's not my intent to come off that way. Though I am trying to explain my view of her character's flaws, it'd be a mistake to say she doesn't have any talents or positive attributes- when seen in the right light. I'm focusing on her flaws as a way of pointing out that some of her more critical "flaws" aren't under her conscious control, and are more like instinctual responses than thoughtful choices.

"there is no chance of her redeeming herself, ever, so no point really in even apologizing for her."

This, I disagree with. I like to think that if she gained some perspective with the help of the right set of positive circumstances, she could evolve past this limit of her character. But she has a couple things against her in this department: Her nature, her nuture, and her psychological survival techniques.

"...ambition is only a bad thing if A: you don't have the skills to back it up (and as stated previously, this doesn't apply to Demona, she does have the skills)"

Skills yes. Wisdom, no.

"...or B: if you are morally corrupt, and allow that corruption to cause you do do awful things win the pursuit of ambition, and in in the holding of power..."

Great point! And very interesting, when applied to Demona.

"its the fact that she's warped herself, again, something SHE did to HERSELF. Willfully."

We might have to agree to disagree on this point. It's simply not true that she woke up one morning and said to herself, "Hey, I think I'll reject sanity today. Let's go with warping to my perspective, just to liven things up a little." ...rather unlikely. I think her natural character simply caused this to snowball.

"This isn't a great analogy, but..."

That's actually a fascinating analogy. The thing is, I think that, on an unconscious level, this IS how she views herself- but only on the rare occasion when she comes close to facing her past feelings of guilt. She doesn't *consciously* think of herself this way. Of course, to be realistic, nobody is perfect. We all utilize our unique talents as best we can and try to compensate for our failures. Just because Demona has a skewed vision of the world around her doesn't mean she CAN'T use her savvyness to benefit others. If not now, then perhaps sometime in the future.

"But here's the thing..."

Keeping with the analogy of "the junkie", it's more accurate to say that if she gets clean- which is something that would take a greater support group than she has available, to help her get through in the first place, she would first have to face the fact that she's an addict, which is unlikely at this juncture. But let's say she did get clean. She would still be prone to that kind of behavior because it's been ingrained so long. Until the "good" outweighs the "evil", it's unlikely that she would be able to remain "good" all on her own, without reverting to the comfort zone of "evil" she has thoroughly embraced (at least in her mind) through necessity. She would need a carefully crafted and continuous support net until that balance was met, including relief from the stresses of constantly having to act like "the leader" in her clan of one.
Shaiya
posted @ Sun, Jul 15, 2012 1:04:26 pm EDT from 71.181.50.252

Greg B, for some reason your site can't verify my Open ID credentials, so I'm leaving these comments here that I wanted to make on your recent entries.

Re:"Where I've Been": It's too much to hope for that Studio JMS will come up with The Memory of Shadows.

Re:"Top Thirty Film Villains": Speaking of Alien, have you seen Prometheus?
B
B
posted @ Sun, Jul 15, 2012 12:59:49 pm EDT from 128.205.143.168

"I definitely want to clarify that I am not saying she's an idiot. I simply don't see evidence of her being anything other than extraordinarily street-savvy."

I think I pointed out the evidence, but okay, we'll agree to disagree.

"You made the point that her style of leadership with MacBeth shows that she can be capable as a war general, but I got the distinct feeling that MacBeth was the one designing the defenses, with Demona's clan being the lynchpin."

I have a hard time seeing her taking orders - she had at least an equal say as to their plan, not to mention a very close to equal role in his entire rule, as his trusted and respected primary advisor. Again, you aren't giving her any credit. And this is of course leaving out the very obvious respect her clan held for her, something I doubt was born out of only fear - I've never seen a gargoyle bow to another before, and I doubt that was they type of thing she would have insisted upon, and she wasn't even looking at her second when he did it.

"It worked, but that was because they worked together."

I do think Macbeth's leveling influence is a good thing for her...actually, they seemed to balance each other pretty well at one point.

"I think she's a fantastic character and I wouldn't want to dismiss ANY of the wonderful things about her,"

Except that's exactly what it seems to me that you are doing.

"but it doesn't change that she can't face the blame of her past or the consequences of her future."

She can though - she chooses not to. if she isn't capable, there is no chance of her redeeming herself, ever, so no point really in even apologizing for her.

"You argue that she's earned her positions of leadership. Whether it was earned or not, simply having the position doesn't make you suited to it."

And again, that's the sad thing about her. A slight side note - it seems to me that 99.99% of the time, ambition is a mortal sin for a female character, but in reality, ambition is only a bad thing if A: you don't have the skills to back it up (and as stated previously, this doesn't apply to Demona, she does have the skills) or B: if you are morally corrupt, and allow that corruption to cause you do do awful things win the pursuit of ambition, and in in the holding of power - which does apply to Demona, I think. And Xanatos as well, going back to what I said about him below. I would call King Arthur ambitious, but not corrupted by it. The problem isn't the ambition, or lack of ability, its the fact that she's warped herself, again, something SHE did to HERSELF. Willfully.

This isn't a great analogy, but have you ever known someone who was insanely talented and awesome, who threw it away and got into all sorts of crazy stuff and did awful things because of an addiction to drugs or alcohol? just so much potential thrown away? And while they might need support in recovery, they refuse to seek it? That's kind of in a way how I see Demona, only her addition is her denial and need to project blame. But here's the thing - if you say "even if this junkie got clean, which btw she has a significant screw loose and is not even mentally capable of, she still won't really be anything special or worthwhile" or if what she's done is not in anyway really significant, so a fix (which can't be imposed from the outside anyway, so there's no hope of that) would take no really effort or journey on her part - Then what's the point of caring? Let her rip, lock her up, shoot her. She's not worth rooting for in any capacity, or investing in. She's just a waste of breath, anyway you cut it. Who cares? And that's what I don't get about apologists.
FTBM2010
posted @ Sun, Jul 15, 2012 12:16:08 pm EDT from 72.37.242.43

FTBM2010> The fact that I don't fully agree with you doesn't detract from how delighted I am at your passionate reply about her character's strong suits. :) It's wonderful to see someone defending her that way.

I definitely want to clarify that I am not saying she's an idiot. I simply don't see evidence of her being anything other than extraordinarily street-savvy. You made the point that her style of leadership with MacBeth shows that she can be capable as a war general, but I got the distinct feeling that MacBeth was the one designing the defenses, with Demona's clan being the lynchpin. Maybe I'm wrong; that's just how it seemed to me. It worked, but that was because they worked together.

Yes- she has loads of charisma! But she sabotages herself just by being herself. I think she's a fantastic character and I wouldn't want to dismiss ANY of the wonderful things about her, but it doesn't change that she can't face the blame of her past or the consequences of her future. That doesn't make her into a helpless idiot. It just makes her rigid and unable to change, unable to break free from the view of the world she's developed. I don't think she can't change because she doesn't want to. I think she can't change because she's a victim of her own failures, of Murphy's law, and her twisted way of seeing events. It's a vicious cycle with her. Her views are the work of millennia, influenced by the universe consistently slapping her in the face. Even when she tries to be good, something happens that puts her right back in the same old rut. Is she a "helpless idiot"? No. Is she pitiable? Yes. Is she dangerous? Oh, heck yeah. You argue that she's earned her positions of leadership. Whether it was earned or not, simply having the position doesn't make you suited to it. The same could be said of some of our presidents here in the US... they are designated as leaders too. But just like Demona, maybe some of them shouldn't have been.
Shaiya
posted @ Sun, Jul 15, 2012 11:54:08 am EDT from 71.181.50.252

PS - "I find it telling that when she went back in time with the Phoenix Gate, she was more concerned with trying to "fix" her younger self than she was in going to the night before the massacre and taking charge to try to save the clan. It points to her thought that she was more flawed back then, instead of the other way around."

I like this point. But again, that's driven by her denial.
FTBM2010
posted @ Sun, Jul 15, 2012 10:04:28 am EDT from 72.37.242.43

@Shaiya - The problem here is you are belittling her and trying to take away her agency in an attempt to make excuses for her. Her intelligence, for example, goes well beyond mere "street savvy-ness" It requires intelligence to become adept at sorcery, science, languages, investing, technology, and so on. And she's capable of a larger vision too - the problem is her denial has twisted that gift into using it for awful ends. She's also a perfectly capable leader - she hasn't "found herself" in positions of leadership - she's earned them, even if sometimes by force. Her style maybe more like that of a war general than say, Goliath, but I think the time leading up to her betrayal of Macbeth shows what she is capable of when she doesn't get in her own way (even her unique way of seperating her clan into cells so they can't be killed point to that - she thinks outside the box) - again, this points to the real tragedy of her character. She has astonishing gifts, smarts, true leadership skills, charisma - but she sabotages herself with her own guilt and refusal to assume responsibility for something SHE did. YOu are taking away her own agency and turning her into a victim, and in doing so dismissing all the fantastic things about her character that make this a real tragedy. It's those same powerful qualities that make her so dangerous in her current state.
"The reason why I think Demona can be apologized for is that she really, truly, simply doesn't get it. She's not being obtuse: she's simply incapable of viewing things with the responsibility needed."
YES SHE DOES GET IT. YES SHE IS CAPABLE. That's the problem - she consciously CHOOSES not to - she's not some helpless idiot like you are trying to make her out to be.
FTBM2010
posted @ Sun, Jul 15, 2012 10:02:01 am EDT from 72.37.242.43

What a great conversation! Good points all around. :)

Matt> Fantastic points. You hit the nail on the head. I think that the fear of shame is the reason that she didn't do the safe thing- to get everyone away from the castle. Instead, she just put her blind trust in the plan working out, and in the Captain to keep them safe.

Greg> I can see what you mean, but as far as speaking up is concerned, I suspect she was paralyzed by the enormity of "what if it goes wrong." Her choice was essentially to shut her eyes tight and hide under a blanket. I think it was a choice made out of inability to cope. What if she said something, and lost her clan's respect? What they thought of her clearly was terribly important to her younger self. Either the plan went right or it didn't, and she couldn't deal with the idea of it not going right... thus the resulting failure to act.

I find it telling that when she went back in time with the Phoenix Gate, she was more concerned with trying to "fix" her younger self than she was in going to the night before the massacre and taking charge to try to save the clan. It points to her thought that she was more flawed back then, instead of the other way around.

Arlo> Your thoughts about Demona's moral and intellectual strengths opens an interesting line of discussion. I think that for Demona, she has a talent for craftiness that often gets misinterpreted as intelligence. I don't view her as a character who is morally strong. To me that would imply that she stood by her morals when the getting got rough. This has never been her strong suit. When she suspects a bad outcome, she responds in force without waiting to consider either the alternatives, or the consequences to the way she acts. In her case, her narrowly perceived vision of the desired result is more important than the morals she holds. She's happy to bend or break those morals for the sake of her idealized result. I do think she has street savvy, as it were, but not much traditional intelligence: she can't use the information and resources she has to benefit herself or her allies on a greater scale. In other words, she is not, and will likely never be good leadership material. The fact that she has found herself in a position of leadership time and time again has just reinforced her concept of herself as never being at fault, as well as reinforcing her thirst for power. She doesn't understand that power is not the thing lacking, and so she remains blind to what could really aid her, and struggles futilely to what she percieves as "the answer" to all of the bad things.

When you compare John Castaway to Demona, I think he possessed a core of greater moral strength than Demona does- simply *because* he did speak up against the way things were, even if it didn't amount to taking a real stand. The reason why I think Demona can be apologized for is that she really, truly, simply doesn't get it. She's not being obtuse: she's simply incapable of viewing things with the responsibility needed. She doesn't have the tools to rely on to look at things in any way other than deeply warped, and not having the tools isn't her fault. If she knew wrong and did it anyway, without having, at least in her mind, justification, then she would be a much greater and more irredeemable villain. As it is, she is a tragic villain, who represents so much of our own dark sides. What a great character. :)
Shaiya
posted @ Sun, Jul 15, 2012 9:42:53 am EDT from 71.181.50.252

@Matt "She did trust older Goliath and listened well to his words. He told her how to avoid the massacre and she completely failed to follow his advice. She waited and worried and dwelled on the coming massacre. She failed to fortify herself with love and truth and fed into jealousy, anger and bitterness."

I think it can be argued that she did make some effort - her actions immediately after show us that; rather than keeping and using the Gate's power for herself, she instead took the spirit of Goliath's advice, broke it in half, and pledged her love to him. An action that she obviously came later to regret. And all the love and lack of jealously in the world on her part didn't change the Princess's behavior and attitude when she assumed authority of the castle.
I imagine over the centuries, Demona would have become more and more convinced (by herself) that her older self was right, and that she should never have listened to Goliath, the human-loving, always put the humans first, Goliath. A resentment that likely festered until she woke them up, and on their first night reunited after so long, he does the whole "defending humans" thing again, and then caps it off by ditching her to go visit his new human girlfriend. BAZOOKA TIME ;)
FTBM2010
posted @ Sun, Jul 15, 2012 9:24:17 am EDT from 72.37.242.43

Comet> Good call. You are right.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"When Demona wipes out humanity, I hope she starts with the Demona Apologists." - Me (Saving them for last so they can grasp the truth is nice too, but too little too late.)
posted @ Sun, Jul 15, 2012 8:54:45 am EDT from 99.92.109.252

Matt> About the hunters: I'm pretty sure that Castaway said in one of the Bad Guys issues (too lazy too look up which one it was) something like "we learned that there's more than one". Don't have the exact quote in mind, but this suggests that they believed for a long time Demona being the last surviving Gargoyle - until they attacked the Manhattan clan. Their reaction when they first meet the Manhattan clan (Hunter's Moon part I) also suggests this. Maybe I missed something here, but this is how I see it :/
But I still have a feeling that they had more contact with Gargoyles over the generations than just with Demona - and the London Clan knowing about them sounds also plausible.
Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!
posted @ Sun, Jul 15, 2012 8:17:50 am EDT from 80.187.102.106

Shaiya > Thanks for the kind words. About your point: Okay, I agree there are some situations in which people just can't do the right thing. We aren't all superheroes. But we can at least take care not to buy into the bigoted lies of others. We can show kindness to the oppressed class. We can not throw sticks at them for talking to our children, the way Mary did in Awakening, Part I. If people took care to guard against their own bigotry, and to be open to other species/races/whatever, there's more of a chance of understanding, and less of a chance for a situation to escalate to the way it did with the gargoyles and humans (or, for that matter, the blacks and whites in MLK's quotation).

Braniac> You're right that recognizing wrong is meaningless if you perpetuate it. But having the strength to say "No!" is also meaningless if you don't know right from wrong. You can have enough confidence to stand up for things, but if you're just going to be a blind follower and go along with everything you're taught, you aren't going to be any different from the people who ostracized blacks before the Civil Rights Movement, or any of the soldiers who went along with, but didn't participate in, the crimes that were committed during the Holocaust. Or <insert any other atrocity from history here>.

You're right that both moral strength (the strength to take a stand when you think something is wrong) and intellectual strength (the strength to know when something is wrong) are both equally important. But John was halfway there. I feel like everyone is making light of the fact that prior to his breakdown, he already had half the battle won. In fact, I'll go so far as to argue that intellectual strength is slightly *more* important than moral strength, because most of us aren't superheroes, and most people aren't willing to risk their lives for a cause. If everyone had the intellectual strength to have well-thought-out beliefs that they were confident in, atrocities wouldn't happen, because any time a great speaker like Hitler or Castaway tried to sway the public, they wouldn't be able to do it. Even if most people weren't superheroes, there would just be a general understanding that if you tried to suggest something morally reprehensible like that, the public wouldn't buy it. By contrast, if everyone had moral strength but not intellectual strength, the public would be easily swayed by those few people who were great speakers, and that moral strength wouldn't make any difference.

To me, Demona and John Castaway are not the same. Maybe that's the point that Greg Weisman was driving home because of his own beliefs, but I would disagree with him there. I've never seen Demona go against the way she was raised even when she knew it would hurt her. Everything she did, she did to help herself. She's an example of someone who has moral strength but not intellectual strength. John Castaway, by contrast, did speak up against the way he was raised, even if he wasn't morally strong enough to take a real stand.
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Sun, Jul 15, 2012 12:20:46 am EDT from 173.54.75.76

Right. And Goliath specifically told her that she was in command while he was gone. She could've changed his orders that everyone stay at the Castle (either by admitting the plan or just telling everyone that she has somehow become aware that the Vikings were attacking at dawn or just not offering an explanation at all) and lead everyone to safety or the rookery or whatever. She had the oppurtunity to turn back. And she did consider it. She almost saved Othello and Desdemona. I think it was her shame for betraying her leader, mate and clan and the fear of discovery that stopped her. Saving everyone would've been wonderful, but it might've caused her to be banished or at least to lose her second-in-command status (which is another fear due to her desire for power). She had her chances and let her own fears and shame and desires come before the safety of her clan.

Great conversation, everyone. A couple random points:

- I doubt Hyppolyta would've been one of those gargoyles that agreed with Demona's viewpoint. The evidence we have suggests she was, at least occasionally, at odds with Demona (and Goliath for that matter). I have no evidence to back this up, but I feel that Hyppolyta's viewpoint on the situation might've been different from both Goliath's and Demona's. She doesn't want to get rid of the humans or abandon Wyvern Hill because she sees the benefits of the alliance and feels the gargoyle need to protect If not the humans and Castle, then at least the rookery and their ancestral home). And she also doesn't want to live with the status quo. I think Hyppolyta might've favored confronting the humans and re-negotiating their status and treatment.

-Todd, what makes you think that the Hunters didn't encounter any gargoyles between 1980 and 1996? What makes you think that they thought Demona was the last of her kind? I think the Hunters are aware that clans exist, but have been unable to locate them so far. For instance, I strongly suspect they know that at least one clan endures in the UK, but can't find their roost(s) yet. And I think the London Clan, at least, knows of the Hunters too.

- Finally, a point was made that Demona might've been acting on knowledge about the massacre gained from her older self and the time travel in "Vows". Yes the older Demona omitted certain truths, but younger Demona also saw her as untrustworthy. She did trust older Goliath and listened well to his words. He told her how to avoid the massacre and she completely failed to follow his advice. She waited and worried and dwelled on the coming massacre. She failed to fortify herself with love and truth and fed into jealousy, anger and bitterness. I just want everyone to keep in mind that if she was shown the inevitability of the massacre, she was also shown exactly how to prevent it... and did just the opposite.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"When Demona wipes out humanity, I hope she starts with the Demona Apologists." - Me (Saving them for last so they can grasp the truth is nice too, but too little too late.)
posted @ Sat, Jul 14, 2012 10:32:52 pm EDT from 99.92.109.252

And Demona could have, at any time, warned her clan of the coming attack. At any time.

"Oh, never mind. It's nothing."

If she was so confident they would be all right, she wouldn't have fled. She chose to trust the Captain with everyone's life except her own. If that's not a smoking gun for her guilt, I don't know what is.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." - Goliath, "The Journey."
posted @ Sat, Jul 14, 2012 8:21:22 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

Shaiya> You misunderstand. I said Goliath would accept the penalties. He would accept that he did something that was wrong and face the consequences of his actions, no matter how terrible they might be. Demona can not and will not face the consequences of what she has done because she cannot admit what she has done was wrong, thus creating this eternal mess for herself and the world. At the core, it is her fault and her inability to accept that fully is what causes nearly all of her pain.

Her world view is indeed warped...badly...both before and after the crucial moment of "What have I...what have THEY done to you?" The cycle of victimization is strong in all directions with her and she lacks the strength to break free, especially coupled with her desire for power. Basically, Demona wants great power but cannot accept the great responsibility. She is indeed a very deep gray, but as Greg Weisman said and Greg Bishansky keeps reminding us, "The massacre was your fault, you stupid bitch!"

Note that she is said to be at fault, to be responsible. She was not guilty of swinging the mace, but she engineered the events that put everyone in that situation, intended or not. To put it in modern legal terms, she's guilty of felony murder. She committed a felonious action in the conspiracy to have the castle sacked and people died as a result. Everyone involved is on the hook for those deaths, not just the one who did the killings.

In the end, it's her inability to face her own self-loathing that defines her as a tragic figure. It makes her unlike the Captain, another figure just as responsible for the Wyvern Massacre as Demona, who eventually was able to face his self-loathing and admit the true object of his hatred wasn't Hakon, it wasn't Goliath...it was himself. He had to face that, admit to the fact that his own weakness in standing opposed to Hakon was what truly sickened him, and then try to make amends for that wrong in whatever small way he could...and he did by preventing another wrong from being committed upon Goliath, thus escaping the cycle of hatred and passing on, unlike Hakon.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Sat, Jul 14, 2012 6:41:22 pm EDT from 174.101.230.22

FTBM2010> Again you make some great points. Demona certainly had her part to play in setting up the circumstances that ultimately ended tragically. (Don't worry- you don't sound condescending.) I agree that there is a solid distinction between reasons and excuses. Excuses come after the fact. Reasons come before the fact. Simplistically put. :) If Demona's reasons for the actions she takes are caused by others, then her actual actions are caused by her. Her excuses are the way in which she avoids finding out the "level of blame" she really has. I think that in this case, Demona is her own worst enemy, simply because it seems clear to me that the one who is hardest on Demona is Demona. If anyone else is hard on her besides herself, it might be too overwhelming for her to bear, thus the transferral of blame whenever she's confronted. It's her survival technique. Either way, it's mistaken when people insist that Demona take 100% of the blame for things going awry. Demona apologists like to defend her, but those who demonize her are just as wrong, if they are taking it to the extreme. She's all kinds of complicated grey... at least in my eyes.

Todd> Well put! The exact points you have brought up are crucial to my understanding of Demona's character. It's true that Demona's part in the Wyvern massacre was in actuality mainly that of plotting, and giving consent. The original plan was for her to get the gargoyles out of the castle for that day, and she failed in executing her part of the plan. This may have been due to following Goliath's orders to stay put. It's a sticky kind of logic, to not directly disobey, but to try and be sneaky about accomplishing her goal. It's a very interesting line of thought.

Brainiac> I like your argument that if Goliath had dropped Xanatos, that there would have been penalties. The parallel to this example is there were definite, extreme consequences to Demona's decisions, too. Her penalty was the loss of her entire family. "Falling victim to one bad day" as you aptly put it, is something impossible to correct. If we could fix bad days as they began, we wouldn't have them in the first place (masochists aside. :) In Demona's case, she had day after day of "bad days." I think her motivation was to protect, but the execution of her actions was deeply flawed. Probably because the way she interprets the world is warped. It's not her fault she sees the world the way she does, any more than a person without a sense of humor is at fault for not getting the punchline of a funny joke. There are reasons why she sees the world this way, and I don't think it's anything she could fix by want of "trying harder." It's one of the reasons I find her such a human character... if you'll forgive the expression. It's also why I consider her to be equally as much a victim as her own victims are.
Shaiya
posted @ Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:36:29 pm EDT from 71.181.50.252

I was reading a little book about the Harry Potter series last night that included some children's lettes to Harry Potter, and one said that he or she (I forget which) would like to have a pet hippogriff named Pog. I thought almost at once of Old Pog in the London clan.

Also that same night, I was watching an episode of "Foyle's War" on the local PBS station, and at the end, they had an interview with a couple of the actors. One, who was playing a sergeant in the British army who'd been wounded in the leg, mentioned studying Douglas Bader and his artificial leg in playing the part, and that reminded me of "Gargoyles" as well, since I was introduced to Bader through "M. I. A."
Todd Jensen
I'm a Hufflepuff!
posted @ Sat, Jul 14, 2012 7:31:27 am EDT from 108.226.1.5

"I'm surprised no one has pointed to Coldstone/Othello as another possible resentful garg. Given Demona's resurrection of him specifically and the brief scene we have with him back before the massacre, you can see that there were certainly other gargoyles with some resentment towards the humans of the castle. Heck, the very incident that would up saving the Trio's life could be seen as an expression of that very resentment."

Two great observations! What a fun discussion! Makes up for the lack of drankin' for me this weekend ;)
FTBM2010
posted @ Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:30:54 pm EDT from 72.37.242.19

I'm surprised no one has pointed to Coldstone/Othello as another possible resentful garg. Given Demona's resurrection of him specifically and the brief scene we have with him back before the massacre, you can see that there were certainly other gargoyles with some resentment towards the humans of the castle. Heck, the very incident that would up saving the Trio's life could be seen as an expression of that very resentment.

Shaiya> I agree. Demona is a very weak person, emotionally speaking. Her actions can be explained by the environment she had to deal with. But it does not excuse them. Her inability to admit that she is at fault, directly or indirectly, of nearly all of her own suffering is the central tragedy of her character and it makes her pitiable.

Could things have turned out differently had someone been there for her? Certainly. Could Goliath have actually dropped Xanatos from the parapet if Elisa weren't there? Possibly, though I believe he would have faced the penalties for such an act, something Demona could not bring herself to do. Is pretty much anybody capable of falling victim to "one bad day"? Yes. But we're also capable of not falling victim to it as well.

Arlo> Recognizing a wrong is meaningless if you perpetuate it, even if the only means is no longer willingly and directly participating in it. Jon and Demona are cut from the same cloth - they know they screwed up, they know they have to face that...but they just can't do it and thus the cycle of hatred and revenge, all to escape their own consciences, continues. Therein lies the true tragedy; a continuous cycle of hatred and revenge because of an inability to admit to their mistakes. It's like an ouroboros consuming itself.

One of the biggest problems that both Demona and Jon Canmore/John Castaway suffer from can be seen through the fact that they're basically going through a jumbo-sized version of a truism one can see in most of history - no matter how terrible the crime, the cover-up just makes it worse. These two are both covering up their culpability in terrible events, personal traumas of great impact, by insisting that the blame lies elsewhere. That doesn't help; it only makes it worse. In the end, neither one has the true strength needed to do the right thing - admit to their mistakes and pay the price for all they have done.

For that and more, they have my pity. But they do not have justification.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:34:23 pm EDT from 174.101.230.22

@Todd - but I bet the Captain wouldn't have done it without her consent. Although that goes back to Arlo's point about the resentment (and that fantastic MLK except) - if even the human Captain felt that way, its safe to say Demona wasn't alone in her feelings. Maybe that Hyppolyta sister would have agreed, for one.
FTBM2010
posted @ Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:38:19 pm EDT from 72.37.242.19

Well, her fault and the Captain's. And the Captain did nearly all the actual work (negotiating with Hakon, cutting the bowstrings, opening the gates). Demona's contribution was largely consent and, when she realized that the plan would go awry, failing to stop it. She's morally responsible, yes, but the Captain had the far more active role in it.

(But certainly the betrayal was crucial to the fall of Castle Wyvern. Hakon had vowed revenge all right, but look at how despondent the Vikings are when the Captain visits the camp. Without the promise of a plan to get them into the castle without having to face the gargoyles again, would the Vikings have dared return? Or would, despite Hakon's boast, they have decided to look for, say, a wealthy monastery that didn't have gargoyles protecting it and try looting it instead?)
Todd Jensen
I'm a Hufflepuff!
posted @ Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:33:33 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

@Shaiya - I agree with you that the once ultimately responsible for the massacre were the hands that swung the maces. Which is why I said I felt her denial and etc afterwards was the greater sin. However, D is still responsible for the role that she played - and she's the ONLY one responsible for stopping herself - it doesn't matter that no one else was there to stop her. She wasn't responsible for the actions the vikings took, in that vein, but she WAS responsible for setting up the circumstance in which it happened.

I want to say this without sounding condescending, so if it does sound like that please don't take it that way, but I think you are mixing up explanations with excuses. They aren't the same - there's a ton of explanations, very good ones, as to why she did what she did and why she is where she is now - but that's not the same as an excuse. I think that's a really important distinction.

"I think Demona's fear lies in the fact that she thinks if she accepts responsibility, she's already gone far too far to ever be forgiven, or be "good" ever again." ---- I really like this. I think I would agree with that. That fear of being beyond forgiveness.
FTBM2010
posted @ Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:30:27 pm EDT from 72.37.242.19

Ahem....

"The massacre was your fault, you stupid bitch!" -Greg Weisman at Gathering 2005.

;)
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." - Goliath, "The Journey."
posted @ Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:21:13 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

Anthony> I can't completely agree with your assessment, mostly because while Demona did play a pivotal role in the plot that led to the massacre, she wasn't the one who actually smashed the gargoyles. Things might have turned out differently if she hadn't conspired with the captain, essentially betraying her clan by going behind her leader's back, but in the end, Demona didn't kill her clan- the leader of the vikings did. If the result of the sacking were immaterial, then Demona would also need be blameless for the result, and only responsible for the going behind Goliath's back to arrange the humans' departure. I think she had an important role to play in the fall of Castle Wyvern and the fate of the gargoyles there, but she wasn't the ultimate villain in that specific case.

Brainiac> I agree with most of what you said, though in my opinion there must be exceptions to there never being any excuses for villainous actions like the ones Demona has taken. In fact, I think she has tons of excuses... mostly given to herself, by herself.... excuses alone do not make her faultless. My main argument is that nobody is perfect, and nobody can be perfect all the time. Everyone does stupid things. Even Goliath almost tossed Xanatos off of a skyscraper at one point, with the intention that he die. That wasn't heroic: it was pure rage and frustration directed at the nearest blameable person. The difference in that situation was that Elisa stopped Goliath. Nobody stopped Demona. She didn't have the opportunity to reflect on mistakes that were narrowly averted, because her mistakes are always in the extreme, and always end tragically. Being unable to face a truth or take responsibility doesn't absolve one of the responsibility. It simply means that the person who face the responsibility has reached some sort of unbreakable limit within themselves. Under different circumstances, it could be Demona leading the clan and Goliath being the human-hating villain. It's twists of fate intertwined with key character personality traits, including strength of character, that influence how we turn out. Demona gets called "strong" often, but I think she may be one of the weakest of the gargoyle characters, simply because of these deeply ingrained personality flaws.

FTBM2010> That's a brilliant analysis. I think the reason people want to defend Demona is they don't want to see her as an unforgivable character. The reason behind that is a deeply rooted personal empathy. It's an empathy that grows from the dark fear that we're secretly villains ourselves, down underneath, and under just the wrong circumstances, we could each do foolish, evil acts. I think most people who want to defend Demona do so because they know they aren't perfect either, and it's just too heartbreaking to never be forgiven. I think Demona's fear lies in the fact that she thinks if she accepts responsibility, she's already gone far too far to ever be forgiven, or be "good" ever again.

Arlo> I think your assessment is brilliant also, and shows a lot of deep thought you have put into it. Reading that kind of critical thought process is a delight. In regards to the idea that those who turn a blind eye are just as wrong as the ones doing actual wrong seems unjust, however. I know that not everyone is a hero, even if they have the opportunity to be. That doesn't make them guilty of the crime they are witness to. To use your example of the Nazis, let's say your neighbor in WWII knew that you were a jew, but failed to offer to hide you because they had small children, and the nazis came and killed your neighbor, it's not just to say that that you are to blame for the deaths. If justice is justice, it has to be true every time and in every circumstance. Most people simply can't live that way. It's impractical. If it were possible, the US would be significantly different today too. Just a thought. Either way, I find it very enjoyable to respond to ideas on this sort of subject. It works my brain!

Todd> That's a really good point. Germans, Russians, Arabs... the thing is, they are all human, all people. Gargoyles and humans are all people, too. The problem occurs when certain "types" of people get lumped together who have just incidental similarities. The original hunter might make a good example of this.
Shaiya
posted @ Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:09:27 pm EDT from 71.181.50.252

@Arlo - I think Canmore had a natural empathy and gentleness to him (a gentleness I don't think even Demona ever had to such an extent), but never had the fortitude to back it up. I mean, he is effectively where Demona is now, and it took a heck of a lot less to get him there.

@Todd - I assumed that they were doing more than hunting gargs. Training, for one, which could lead them to engaging in violent activities, probably resource-gathering. The Canmore line can't fund themselves to hunt gargs BY hunting gargs (although Castaway has probably solved that dilemma by now) so what do you think the family's been up to all these centuries? Maybe legitimate stuff, but I'm willing to bet a lot of the lesser legit variety too.
FTBM2010
posted @ Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:04:14 pm EDT from 72.37.242.19

I do wonder about the details of the "trail of violence". The Canmores believed that Demona was the only gargoyle left, so they probably didn't meet any other gargoyles between 1980 and 1996. And they seemed focused entirely on getting rid of gargoyles, unlike the original Hunters who seemed as motivated by human politics (the struggle over the succession to the Scottish throne) as by hatred for gargoyles. The most likely anti-human violence they'd have committed would have been probably much like the "blowing up the clock tower" incident - violence aimed at gargoyles that spilled over to affect humans in the area, who were not intended as the targets - though that raises the question of who the gargoyles were if they thought Demona was the only one out there, and they hadn't encountered her often enough. (Maybe another question for "Ask Greg" - though I doubt that Greg Weisman will answer it.)
Todd Jensen
I'm a Hufflepuff!
posted @ Fri, Jul 13, 2012 7:53:24 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

That's true. He has a different kind of strength than most of the characters in Gargoyles. But intellectual strength can't be discounted. Intellectual strength is the strength that keeps the resto f the clan from being corrupted the way Demona was corrupted. If more people had it, bigotry wouldn't exist in the Gargoyles Universe, and it wouldn't exist in this universe either.

To be clear, I'm defining this as:
Intellectual strength - The strength to see through prejudice and upbringing, the strength that makes you see right from wrong, even if you can't act on it.
Moral strength - The strength that makes you act on your convictions.

To be clear, moral strength is important too. But if more people had intellectual strength, I think enough people would see an injustice as wrong that the sorts of people who spread fear and hate the way Castaway later did wouldn't be able to succeed. In a way, he became the thing that his strength was supposed to fight against.
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Fri, Jul 13, 2012 7:42:05 pm EDT from 173.54.75.76

I know a lot of people who broke away from their families over things like this. Gay kids born into fundamentalist households for example. Is it hard, yes. But it happens.

Jon could have done this at anytime. He knew what they were doing was wrong, and to quote Matt Bluestone "his three kids have been leaving a trail of violence behind them ever since." How many people have they hurt? I don't think they encountered Demona since the night of Charles' death because if they had, Robyn wouldn't have confused Angela for her (I think the one time Robyn saw Demona was in the dark catacombs of Paris, and she just saw silhouette and red glowing eyes). So, who was this violence directed against? Probably other people.

Jon could have walked away, should have walked away, didn't walk away. If he felt what they were doing was wrong, he had a moral responsibility to step up and either try to stop it or walk away. He didn't. Ergo he is a weak man. And I know most people are like this, but true strength is rare.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." - Goliath, "The Journey."
posted @ Fri, Jul 13, 2012 7:41:19 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

I think we judge him as weak especially because, after the Canmores blew up the clock tower, he delivered the broadcast that framed the gargoyles for destroying the tower without (as far as we can tell) even a brief protest. And at the fight at the dam, when Elisa asks him if he's going to try to stop this, he says "I wish I could", in a way that suggests he didn't make an effort.
Todd Jensen
I'm a Hufflepuff!
posted @ Fri, Jul 13, 2012 7:34:57 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

Todd> Very true, and that's one reason why Castaway always reminded me of Hitler in that scene.

Although, while we're on the topic of Castaway, I should point out that I always felt he'd gotten a bad rep by the fans and even by Greg Weisman too, and I've seriously considered submitting something to Greg about it. Okay, the guy wasn't perfect, and he had a problem standing up to his brother and sister (like a lot of us do when we grow up looking up to this person). And he couldn't come to terms with the fact that he was the one who'd shot and paralyzed his brother (like a lot of us wouldn't be able to after we'd just shot someone we idolized, especially with all the stress he was under at the time, thinking he'd lost his brother and then blaming himself for it).

But I have to say, I always thought he was the strongest out of the three siblings. Jason and Robyn were traditionally strong: they'd been raised with hatred and had the strength to see it was wrong eventually. But Johnny always had that strength. It wasn't something he'd had to realize. Okay, he broke when he was faced with a lot of pressure, just as any of us would have. But I think it took a lot of intellectual strength for him to be able to realize gargoyles weren't all evil on his own like that, given the way he was raised. I think it's really very unfair that any of us try to judge him for not standing up to his brother, especially when he'd been raised in this environment where his entire family brought him up teaching him that gargoyles were all evil.

That wasn't directed at Greg B, although Greb B did mention that on his blog post. It just made me think of it, and reminded me of how this is one thing I've always disagreed with the fans and even Greg Weisman on.

And speaking of Greg B, Greg B> k I'll have to watch it again to figure out what I'm talking about, then.
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Fri, Jul 13, 2012 7:30:00 pm EDT from 173.54.75.76

Yes, one thing I think is a pity about the comic book ending so soon is that I'd have liked to have seen more of Greg Weisman's take on the Quarrymen, and what role the regular citizenry would play in it. We all know how the Goliath Chronicles made the Quarrymen into conventional villains, and how we hoped that Greg would do better with them.

In recent thoughts on that matter, I recalled Castaway's speech in "The Journey". Before, what had most drawn me to it was all the ironies, but more recently, I realized that it also showed that Greg meant the Quarrymen to be something more than just another villain gang. Here's the speech quoted in full (the audience responses omitted):

"I know that you are all reasonable people. But you do not live in a reasonable world. Violence, racism, injustice - you struggle with the world's problems, and wind up feeling so alone. Now something alien and horrible has entered your world. Gargoyles! Are you afraid of this monster? Wellm for once, you are not alone. Are you afraid these creatures will attack you in your sleep? You are not alone in that fear! Are you afraid they will steal your children away? You are not alone! Do you believe these monsters must be stopped? You are not alone! Join us. Join the Quarrymen. Take a hood. Take a hammer. You are Quarrymen now! And I promise, you will never be alone again!"

Now look over that speech. Who would you aim it to, if you were Castaway and were delivering it? Which audience is it best suited for? A crowd of would-be villain's henchmen in a disreputable bar like the "Star Wars" canteen? Or a group of ordinary frightened citizens?
Todd Jensen
I'm a Hufflepuff!
posted @ Fri, Jul 13, 2012 7:20:27 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

ARLO> <<I never realized Greg B was the guy on the Gargoyles DVD talking about how the show touched base for a lot of people who felt they weren't being accepted.>>

I'm not. I do talk about Demona though.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." - Goliath, "The Journey."
posted @ Fri, Jul 13, 2012 7:15:03 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

Todd> I also liked the point about the Holocaust and September 11th.

But that said, I would say that if you belong to a group that's doing wrong and you don't speak out against that group, then you're part of that group. I think the fact that the people who were actually killing gargoyles wouldn't have been able to get away with it if the humans had been more understanding is more important than you're making it out to be. There are always tyrants and evil people, and that's why it's the human race's responsibility to be thoughtful and not just go along with a sentiment that will allow the oppression of other people or beings. It's like that saying, "The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

And on that note, I also believe that nazi soldiers weren't the only ones responsible for the actions that took place during the Holocaust. Of course, that situation is a bit more complicated, since the government was lying about what they were doing, and some people have argued that the public would have been stupid not to know what was going on. But you get the point.

On a side note, I never realized Greg B was the guy on the Gargoyles DVD talking about how the show touched base for a lot of people who felt they weren't being accepted. Who was the girl who said the only reason she survived high school was because of the Gargoyles fan base?
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:49:05 pm EDT from 173.54.75.76

Of course, the Demona debate leads to another debate - how responsible is the human race in general for the sad state that the gargoyle race is in? Yes, there've been plenty of gargoyle massacres, but these always seem to be carried out by the really nasty villains (who are at odds with their fellow humans as well - and who often slaughter the gargoyles in order to help pursue their goals against their fellow humans): Hakon, Constantine, Gillecomgain, Duncan, Canmore, etc. The humans of Castle Wyvern weren't fond of the gargoyles, but they didn't go beyond trying to have as little to do with them as possible. For the most part, the general public seemed to stay out of the actual massacres; the worst that can be said about them is that they didn't do much to stop them (and that their fear of the gargoyles probably made it easier for anti-gargoyle sealots like the Hunters to publicly engage in such doings).

I do think that Demona's grounds for humanity being incurably evil and anti-gargoyle would be much like viewing all Germans as monstrous anti-Semitists, all Russians as would-be communist tyrants, or all Arabs as terrorists.
Todd Jensen
I'm a Hufflepuff!
posted @ Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:40:27 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

she fit's the "doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results" definition. But that's about it, IMO
FTBM2010
posted @ Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:17:28 pm EDT from 72.37.242.19

@GregXB - I saw that post before - very well said. I also liked your Demona/Hitler musings. I'm dying to know what she was doing in WW2. Or during the Joan of Arc years...
FTBM2010
posted @ Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:15:38 pm EDT from 72.37.242.19

There are all kinds of definitions of insane, but does Demona fit any of them? Maybe one. But, well, she's not brain dead. She does know right from wrong, all of her actions were premeditated. Really, you could put her on trial and the insanity defense would not apply to her.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." - Goliath, "The Journey."
posted @ Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:15:19 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

@Arlo - that's a great point, (MLKjr) and in D's case, its compounded by the fact that she KNEW the clan would be destroyed, because she had already seen it. And with the Princess being more and more outspoken against the clan, I'm sure there was a sense of desperation there in addition to the resentment (and natural sense of superiority ;)) So it's understandable...so too is her denial. It's like those stories where the guy has a dream someone breaks into his house and axe-murders his family, and he's trying to stop it, and then he wakes up covered in their blood with an axe in his hands...or that one Lovecraft one, about the guy who is terrified of this hideous monster roaming around until he gets in the light or looks in a mirror or whatever and realizes that HE'S the monster. But out of the two, and this is just my opinion, I always thought her denial was the greater sin than the betrayal, and what she chose to do with it. She's a very strong character, with a ton of awesome qualities, but she has allowed herself to become defined by her own very real moral cowardice. Its that same moral cowardice that caused the massacre in the first place - Demona goes back in time and LIES to herself about who was responsible. The same lie. It always breaks my heart to see that scene in Vows, where she says "I will NEVER be like you!" and "I do not wish to BE you!" Poor thing had no idea the wheels were already in motion - and they were set by herself.
I really don't consider her insane, but I kind of wonder if she ever did consciously admit the truth to herself, if that wouldn't be the final straw, and her mind would just snap. I know mine would! But then she IS a survivor, to like the 100th power, so...
FTBM2010
posted @ Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:06:38 pm EDT from 72.37.242.19

But*
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Fri, Jul 13, 2012 4:25:30 pm EDT from 173.54.75.76

E-mailed Disney again and got the standard "tentative plans" message. It's been so long now, it almost feels like they're hessitant to make them definitive.

FTBM> That's a great analysis, and you made very good points.

I'm not sure if I consider myself a Demona apologist, but I think the thing with those of us who try to defend her is that we can see her side. The truth is the majority of us would develop a lot of resentment if we were raised in a situation in which we and our family were looked down on because of who we are, and especially if we're the ones providing some service that's the only reason the privileged class is able to survive. I'm reminded of a letter by Martin Luther King, in which he mentions starting to see the seeds of resentment build up in his daughter:

"ut when you have seen vicious mobs lynch your mothers and fathers at will and drown your sisters and brothers at whim; when you have seen hate-filled policemen curse, kick, brutalize and even kill your black brothers and sisters with impunity; when you see the vast majority of your 20 million Negro brothers smothering in an airtight cage of poverty in the midst of an affluent society; when you suddenly find your tongue twisted and your speech stammering as you seek to explain to your 6-year-old daughter why she can't go to the public amusement park that has just been advertised on television and see tears welling up in her eyes when she is told that Funtown is closed to colored children and see the depressing clouds of inferiority begin to form in her little mental sky and see her begin to distort her little personality by unconsciously developing a bitterness toward white people.."

The story as it has been told to us makes it seem like Demona was the only one who felt the way she did, and that's why she betrayed the clan, which ultimately contributed to destroying her life as well as theirs. But I find it unlikely that she was the only gargoyle who felt that level of resentment. I think it's more realistic to say that if her plan had succeeded, there would have been some gargoyles who, at least silently, said "Good for her!" even if Goliath ultimately would have ordered the clan to save the humans, as Greg has said.

It's just difficult to judge someone knowing you could be capable of doing the same things when put in their shoes. Demona is a very strong character, but ultimately, she's probably the most like most of us in terms of her ability to be corrupted by a hard life, and her fall was gradual, each time destroying her a little more as she sunk further and further. That's one of the themes of Gargoyles, in my opinion: that Goliath and the others didn't fall because they didn't let their natural resentment fester and take over their personalities, whereas Demona did. Goliath and the others are the morally strong ones in the series. Demona is like the rest of us.
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Fri, Jul 13, 2012 4:23:36 pm EDT from 173.54.75.76

FTBM2010> You've hit the nail on the head. Great analysis.

I had a lot to say about her here:

http://gregxb.blogspot.com/2011/12/top-twenty-gargoyles-universe-villains.html
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." - Goliath, "The Journey."
posted @ Fri, Jul 13, 2012 2:36:48 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

Typed over myself there - the point in my first paragraph is, on some level she KNOWS she's wrong. And that's a huge source of her conflict.
FTBM2010
posted @ Fri, Jul 13, 2012 2:15:08 pm EDT from 72.37.242.19

The thing that confuses me about really rabid apologists is because I know they are doing it because they LIKE the character, but then I'm left wondering what it is that they like? B/c what I always found so amazing about her, so compelling, was her extraordinary internal conflict. She's not insane - she's wrong, and she Like say, banishment if her role became known. But she still did it, good intentions or no, and this is what happened. She's not some passive participant/victim in her own life. And that, her wrong-doing and denial and on-going need to project her own fault outside of herself, combined with the good that's still buried WAY down inside of her, is what drives the war she's fighting within herself. It's also what gives us so many great moments, like in Hunter's Moon, where she stands there, right on the verge of having it all, her revenge, about to commit the greatest atrocity, and in reality, all she had to do was drop the vial. They would not have stopped her in time. But instead, she stands there and takes the time to draw Goliath a map on how to stop her, and hands it to him. One the one level, she's doing the typical cliched villain gloating. On the other, she's (subconsciously) trying to stop herself. And then in the next moment, she goes berserk, and for just a second, I think she wanted everything, including herself, to be destroyed...but at the same time, what she wants to do (and does) is just run away. I mean, that's seriously amazing stuff right there, and if you want to say that A.she's just pure.irredeemable, baby-eating evil, or B.just a tragic victim of the universe, rather than the primary agent of her own undoing, then you don't get to enjoy any of that. And that's really missing out IMO.
A side-note to the "universe" thing, while I don't agree with that at all, the reality is that humans ARE responsible for the fact that gargoyles are now on the brink of extinction. They've been slaughtering clans all over the world for well over a thousand years and most of that had nothing to do with Demona - and therefore she has outside validation to justify herself with. And that's what makes her denial so scary - it's rooted in, or at least rationalized by, a half truth. And that's probably what made Goliath so afraid she could "turn" Angela - because he knows she has powerful arguments on her side. Which makes me wonder this: We know genocide is a human trait - we commit genocide on our own, and have certainly wiped out or nearly wiped out many other species. Sometimes out of hate, sometimes merely survival. See wolves, for example - to dangerous to have around. I suspect that there are at least some Quarrymen that fall into this latter category - they are anti-gargoyle not out of hatred of fear, in and of itself, but because they think of gargoyles as a real threat, and want them wiped out for that reason. Are there gargoyle equivalents of that? Demona's out for revenge in addition to (or even above) survival, but do you think there could be gargoyles out there that maybe wouldn't have a problem with what she's doing, purely for practical/survivalist reasons? Perhaps among the isolationist Mt Thanatos clan?
FTBM2010
posted @ Fri, Jul 13, 2012 2:13:50 pm EDT from 72.37.242.19

Shaiya> I actually had a much longer analysis to post, but I decided to just go with the summary (I've still got the longer analysis if any one's interested, though).

To put things in Gargoyles terms, Demona has failed to learn what Xanatos already knows...revenge is a sucker's game. Demona basically has a gigantic "KICK ME, I'M A SUCKER" sign on her back at this point because she refuses to learn from her mistakes...and stubborn refusal to grow up and face the truth is NEVER an excuse for actions such as hers.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Fri, Jul 13, 2012 2:06:03 pm EDT from 137.183.232.27

@Shaiya "If the sacking at Castle Wyvern didn't go so awry..." is immaterial. Demona is responsible regardless of the outcome as well as those with whom she conspired. If the outcome was positive for the Gargoyles Clan that doesn't make her a good "person".
Anthony Tini
posted @ Fri, Jul 13, 2012 1:29:03 pm EDT from 159.240.11.159

Ahem...

"The massacre was your fault, you stupid bitch!" -Greg Weisman discussing Demona at Gathering 2005's Blue Mug A Guest.

The point of Demona, the core truth is that she is her own worst enemy. Yes, she's a tragic villain, but that's the tragedy. She did it all to herself!
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." - Goliath, "The Journey."
posted @ Fri, Jul 13, 2012 1:23:36 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

Algernon> Demona, at any age, has an inherent element of immaturity to her. Things go wrong? Blame someone else. Something bad happens? "It wasn't my fault! It's other people that are the bad ones, not me!" It shows an inability to take responsibility that reminds me directly of a child who doesn't have the capacity to either figure out or take on the consequences of their actions.I think of it like blaming a child for doing something naughty... except the child is ages old, and deeply in denial. In Demona's case, it's always someone else's fault. It's become so ingrained in her character after all this time that to make things "her fault" would utterly crush her ability to cope.

If you ever plucked wings off a fly or dropped ants into a spiderweb when you were a kid just because you could... if you ever cut a worm in half thinking, in delight, that you were helping the worm reproduce by making "two worms", then I think you are able to understand a very small fraction of the maturity level Demona is at. She finds out that her attempt to "save all the gargoyles" from being treated like pests backfires as grossly as the idea as cutting up worms. In the case of the worms, they die. In the case of Castle Wyvern, everyone dies. Same idea, but hugely, unbearably bigger scale. How upset would you be to find out the worms you tried to "help" died directly as a cause of you cutting them up? What if someone had suggested to you that that's how they reproduce? Maybe the person who told you that didn't mean any harm. But you will still feel it is THEIR fault, and feel regret and resentment for the misinformation. In the end, if you cut up worms, you kill them. If Demona betrays the humans in the castle, and as a result, the gargoyles she wanted to help died, whose fault is it? In Demona's case, the universe is against her, because immaturity doesn't have an age limit, and she can't cope like an adult. In Demona's case, someone else has to be at fault, and that someone is "the humans". Eventually, anyone who can be blamed for a tragedy she experiences becomes the enemy. That includes even her clan.

These things that play to her weaknesses snowball over centuries, putting her greater and greater in denial to herself about whether she is a victim or if she is to blame. At some point, she probably decides that it's better to be a villain, because at least that way she feels someone in control over the things that are already un-doable. There is something to be said about intent versus actual result. In Demona's case, I can see where she is originally a victim. If the sacking at Castle Wyvern didn't go so awry, things would have turned out differently for her. There was no mentioning of any of the humans actually being killed... it would have been a bloodless affair if things HAD gone accordingly. It's one of the reasons I can see Demona as not entirely to blame for every crafty plot she's had a claw in. Not to say that everyone else who has been hurt or killed indirectly -or even directly- by her isn't just as much of a victim too.

I think contemplating her character is a great exercise in point of view. It's also what makes her such a great villain: all great villains are also victims of tragic circumstances. (Although the same could be said about heroes.)
Shaiya
posted @ Fri, Jul 13, 2012 12:53:02 pm EDT from 71.181.50.252

In my opinion it is extremely difficult to judge Demona. Yes, it is easy to say she's bad, and it's also easy to say she's a poor thing. But it is far more complicated than that, and I still can't decide whether I shall feel more compassion or more disdain for her.
I can understand the "Demona Apologists" to some extent, and also the opposite of them.
Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!
posted @ Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:50:19 am EDT from 80.187.102.179

SHAIYA> "I think that if anyone is to blame for Demona being screwed up, it's the universe."

I disagree, almost everything bad that has ever happened to Demona was a direct or indirect consequence of her own actions. Just look at the Wyvern Massacre, she could have called the whole thing off at anypoint before the fateful night and everything would have been fine. But she didn't and her entire clan paid the price because she went behind the Goliath's back.

Fast forward to 1057 and she does the exact same thing to her new clan.
Algernon
You know, if the only way you can defend your position is to say that something is wrong with the people who don't agree with you...you're a ****ing idiot. ~SFDebris
posted @ Fri, Jul 13, 2012 7:42:42 am EDT from 78.143.161.46

56 is too young to grow up?
Spen
"Am I not 'down' with my bad self?" - Prince Phobos
posted @ Fri, Jul 13, 2012 7:29:40 am EDT from 69.63.7.88

Matt- I think that if anyone is to blame for Demona being screwed up, it's the universe. It's great to give her full responsibility for everything she's done, but it's also theoretically great to try an insane person in a court of law as someone with the full extent of their mind intact. She's been through a lot of really messed up events, and it's messed her up, made her insane. Is she the one who deliberately acted, and caused injury to those around her, however different the desired/perceived goal she had at the time was? Of course. But I'd blame her evils more firmly on the fact that she was "taught" life way too harshly, without hope of redemption, at every critical junction. She sees life in extremes, and it overwhelms her, so she responds badly. If nothing else, she's guilty of being forced to "grow up" before she's capable of understanding the extent of her actions, which equals poor choices, which equals stress and fractures in the foundation of her mental stability, which causes her to try too hard in all the wrong ways, getting more and more hurt and withdrawn, and more and more isolated from friends and reality,and vicious cycle continues. Just sayin'... Love to play devil's advocate for you, since it'd be boring if everyone just agreed all the time. ;)
Shaiya
posted @ Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:25:53 am EDT from 71.181.50.252

MATT - Your new signature reminds me of the movie "Independence Day", where some of the first victims of the extra-terrestrial invaders are the "alien groupies" in Los Angeles.
Todd Jensen
I'm a Hufflepuff!
posted @ Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:40:43 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

Adam> Yeah, I suspect you are right about the beast population. We know some clans have beasts, like Manhattan and Avalon and probably Mayan, but not likely in the numbers required to support a population. Other clans, like London and Labyrinth, have no beasts at all. The only clan we know of that likely has a stable population of beasts aside from Xanadu is Ishimura since they still have beasts in 1996 and seem to have been somewhat isolated. And even the Ishimura Clan might take in a few beasts to bolster their population. So yeah, I'd wager that unless Ishimura, New Olympus, Loch Ness or Pukhan have more beasts than is likely, a strong majority of beasts will be descended from those of Xanadu in 2198 and beyond.

It'll be interesting to see how gargoyles move about in the 21st and 22nd centuries. It isn't just about numbers, but personal connections and idealogies. Manhattan is likely to have at least a few imports from London down the road. And probably from Avalon as well. I really see the Manhattan Clan living up to their protectorate and becoming a true melting pot of gargoyles from all over the place. Manhattan and Avalon are sister clans and will be the most numerous of the founding members of the new Wyvern Clan even though other clans, like London, might have more proximity and numbers. The Mayan Clan could certainly use some help, but I doubt this will come from London simply because how different these clans are in regards to culture and purpose. One is a cosmopolitan clan well adapted to the ways of humanity, the other is a remote and exotic clan often at odds with humanity. One protects a city, the other a forest. I suspect that gargoyles joining the Mayan Clan will come from clans with a bit more in common. Jade and Turquesa will likely make good friends with the Avalon Clan and eventually some Avalon gargoyles might make their way to Guatemala. And New Camelot, while founded from gargoyles from all over the world, will likely have a strong London contigent based on Griff leading them there.

You can start to see why all the clans, joined together as the Gargoyle Nation, would want to found a new clan together as a sign of unity among themselves.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"When Demona wipes out humanity, I hope she starts with the Demona Apologists." - Me (Saving them for last so they can grasp the truth is nice too, but too little too late.)
posted @ Thu, Jul 12, 2012 12:53:06 pm EDT from 99.92.109.252

Matt- I wounder if any other clans have the numbers to have members relocate? Of the clans we have seen, having the London clan send out about half a dozen mated pairs to the Manhattan and Mayan clans would help them out a lot (especially with raising 20-40 hatchlings with just 4 members in the Mayan clan).

And for gargoyle beasts, I get the feeling that the Xanadu clan is going to be the only clan that has beasts in numbers that can be relocated to other clans. And if that where the case, by 2198, most of the beasts in the world would have their ancestory in the Xanadu clan.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Thu, Jul 12, 2012 9:11:31 am EDT from 170.112.1.251

MATT> <<Yeah, I have not seen any apologist around here in some time. As you can tell, even the most cordial of us have a pretty adverse reaction to their odd beliefs... and, well, Greg B isn't the most cordial among us... : )>>

Hey, sometimes even the angels need a sword. I'm the CR's token evil teammate. Wow... I'm 2198 Demona. ;)
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." - Goliath, "The Journey."
posted @ Wed, Jul 11, 2012 9:53:20 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

Yeah, I have not seen any apologist around here in some time. As you can tell, even the most cordial of us have a pretty adverse reaction to their odd beliefs... and, well, Greg B isn't the most cordial among us... : )

I also thought that Macbeth's place would've been an ideal home for a gargoyle clan. And the Manhattan Clan would feel great there (and wouldn't it piss Demona off!) except that the connections to Castle Wyvern and Alex are just too strong. And the proximity to Elisa and being in the center of their protectorate (Manhattan) probably help too. All things considered, those perks probably outweigh the risk of living with Xanatos. Still, I'm sure Macbeth would be amiable to taking in the clan (long or short term) should the need arise. I've often wondered what would've happened in "Enter Macbeth" if, realizing the danger the clan was in at Castle Wyvern, Goliath took Macbeth up on his offer to relocate. Would Macbeth have redeemed faster? Would the Clan have taken Manhattan as their protectorate? Lots of possibilities.

And since Todd brought up the friendship between the London and Manhattan Clans, I thought I'd add that even more than I wonder about Lex and Amp's relationship, I wonder if the London Clan, now aware of several clans weak in numbers will go ahead and start having three eggs per mated pair again and send some gargoyles to Manhattan to bolster their numbers. It might explain the Arthurian names of Broadway and Angela's kids. Of course, Griff will eventually take a group to New Camelot as well. And by 2198, another group will leave to help found the clan on Queen Florence Island. My point is, I think that if the London Clan doesn't continue with three eggs per pair when they lay in 2008, I'm confident they almost certainly will when they lay in 2028.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"When Demona wipes out humanity, I hope she starts with the Demona Apologists." - Me (Saving them for last so they can grasp the truth is nice too, but too little too late.)
posted @ Wed, Jul 11, 2012 8:56:04 pm EDT from 99.92.109.252

Are there even any 'Demona apologists' left in this room? I think we've chased away pretty much all of them (thankfully).
Spen
"Am I not 'down' with my bad self?" - Prince Phobos
posted @ Wed, Jul 11, 2012 8:31:52 pm EDT from 69.63.7.88

The Stone of Destiny story in the comics showed us, I think, a lot about Xanatos and the Illuminati's style. First, they aren't as focused on the gargoyles as we might initially think. For a long time, I thought that Duval's phone call to Xanatos in "The Journey" was about the gargoyles moving into the castle; now we know that it was about the Stone of Destiny instead, and Duval wanted Xanatos to help steal it for the Society.

And we saw not only that Xanatos is still ready to engage in such schemes, but that he was ready to cheat the Illuminati by giving them a duplicate and keep the real thing for himself - and that the only thing that stopped him was his discovery of the Stone's true nature. If the Spirit of Destiny can speak through any stone, anywhere in the world, it takes away the point of giving the Illuminati a fake.

(And I think that Greg handled the ending well. The revelation of the Stone's true nature, though a great touch - a friend commented that the Illuminati going to all this trouble to steal a rock was a great comment on all conflicts over physical objects - could have given the story a "What was the point of all that?" feel. But Greg gave the story some important consequences. Peredur now knows that King Arthur is awake two hundred years ahead of schedule, which will usher in the Illuminati's interaction with Arthur that would be a major part of the "Pendragon" spin-off. The Manhattan and London clans have grown closer (and the fans will certainly have a great time speculatin on the exact nature of Lexington and Staghart's friendship). Coldstone and Coldfire have rejoined the clan. And Coyote has taken a step closer to becoming the Coyote-X of "Gargoyles 2198". All solid results.
Todd Jensen
I'm a Hufflepuff!
posted @ Wed, Jul 11, 2012 6:48:34 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

@Masterdramon - I completely missed that in Bad Guys. That's a really interesting theory - I had just assumed Sevarius learned all he knew from studying Thailog which he started doing before he started up with the mutates. But a few months is still pretty fast....
FTBM2010
posted @ Wed, Jul 11, 2012 6:01:58 pm EDT from 72.37.242.35

If I was a member of the Manhattan Clan, I would be very wary of Xanatos and his motives. If there ever comes a day when the clan can truely trust him, it will be many years in the future. I still think Macbeth would make a much better landlord for the clan than Xanatos. However, I think for the Gargoyle race Xanatos is better because of the clans proximity to Alex. As we know, Alex seems to have a future that is tied to the Gargoyle race, and I think one of the reasons for that is that he will be raised with the help of the Manhattan Clan.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Wed, Jul 11, 2012 5:53:09 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

And the worst of the Demona-Apologists claim that it was, in fact, Goliath or Macbeth or whomever who was at fault for causing much of Demona's misery. These people really worry me.

I think a lot of this stems from people having difficulty keeping their enjoyment of a character and their desire for their favorite character to be a hero or victim or relatable to them seperate. Either that, or they just really have a jacked-up moral compass, a lack of reasoning skills and a completely distorted view of reality. Lets hope it is the former.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"When Demona wipes out humanity, I hope she starts with the Demona Apologists." - Me (Saving them for last so they can grasp the truth is nice too, but too little too late.)
posted @ Wed, Jul 11, 2012 5:19:35 pm EDT from 99.92.109.252

<<B. Some of her suffering is self inflicted (Like losing most of the clan to the Wyvern Massacre).>>

I would say that most of it is self inflicted.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." - Goliath, "The Journey."
posted @ Wed, Jul 11, 2012 5:05:15 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

K. Wable> First off, the video can be found on that YouTube link that Greg Bishansky provided.

Second, an Demona Apologists are those who think that Demona's not really at fault for her crimes because she's suffered a lot. While it's true that her level of suffering is higher than many can claim:
A. It doesn't excuse her crimes.
B. Some of her suffering is self inflicted (Like losing most of the clan to the Wyvern Massacre).
Antiyonder
posted @ Wed, Jul 11, 2012 4:55:23 pm EDT from 50.35.222.147

What's this thing about "Demona apologists" and a "video"? Where can I see this "video" and where can I see what these "apologists" are saying?

This whole conversation has me really baffled now because I don't understand what's going on. Anyone care to clarify?

Thanks
K. Wable
posted @ Wed, Jul 11, 2012 3:41:37 pm EDT from 69.122.79.221

Masterdramon> I have a feeling that this could be actually the answer. :O
Needed some time to get these things in order in my head since I'm mostly interested in "dark ages" stuff.
Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!
posted @ Wed, Jul 11, 2012 3:35:45 pm EDT from 80.187.97.167

Comet: The Ishimura idea may actually have some merit. We know from "Bad Guys" that Sevarius has been doing some freelance work for Bushido Concepts, which is almost certainly the company owned by Taro...

So just how far back does their professional relationship go back, exactly?
Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"Lay lady lay, lay across my big brass bed..." - Bob Dylan
posted @ Wed, Jul 11, 2012 3:21:52 pm EDT from 66.91.223.104

Regarding Xanatos, with regards to 'using the gargoyles' -- by virtue of them being there, Xanatos has more security against Oberon and his children should they decide to come after Alexander again (by virtue of brute force but also because they've made an impression on Oberron and thus carry some sway with him and his kind). And, who knows, he might always find some other use for them or way to manipulate them. -- it's just in his nature.

the only villain that i ever felt was completely redeemed in the series was macbeth. (well okay maybe dingo and matrix and the events of Bad Guys also, but referring just to the show itself for this comment).
Some Geek
http://www.squidoo.com/thegeeklens-cartoons
posted @ Wed, Jul 11, 2012 3:20:09 pm EDT from 69.255.208.193

Matt>
"Has anyone ever considered if Sevarius had any knowledge of gargoyles prior to his work with Xanatos on the Thailog and Mutate Projects? Something about his familiarity with the species makes me wonder..."

That is interesting. I never thought about that. To be honest, I always believed he just had all the information from Xanatos... but now that you mention it, I'm not sure anymore. :O
From where should the information have come, if not from Xanatos? I think most of the world (except for the hunters and very special places like Ishimura) forgot about Gargoyles over the centuries. Maybe he had a look in that ominous book from Angus Canmore :S (and I'm still extremely interested in seeing some of its content.)
Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!
posted @ Wed, Jul 11, 2012 3:16:38 pm EDT from 80.187.97.167

Greg B & Matt> Sad thing is if/when we get more Gargoyles and specifically upping the crime count, I doubt that the apologists will come around.

I mean really she has committed many crime, but that video in the long run is just the tip of the iceburg.
Antiyonder
posted @ Wed, Jul 11, 2012 2:11:42 pm EDT from 50.35.222.147

I finished the series and watched TGC not knowing what was going on with Xanatos. "Hunter's Moon" made me unsure if we could trust him, but willing to believe that he at least wasn't going to ship them off to the lab as soon as they turned to stone. TGC made me think he was a true ally. It wasn't til a few years later in 2001 that I discovered the fandom and this site and realized it was right to disregard TGC. With that in mind, I went back to being wary of Xanatos, but still willing to believe that he wouldn't directly seek to destroy, enslave or experiment on them at least.

And, to add to what Todd said, Xanatos was never out to kill the gargoyles or whatever, he just wanted them under his control. And by making a truce of sorts with them and inviting them back to the Castle, he actually made steps towards that goal, rather than away from it. That doesn't mean that they won't ever be a thorn in his side, look at the Stone Of Destiny incident, but it does mean that even when they oppose him, he will have more control of the situation. He knew almost the second it was decided that Macbeth would take some gargoyles to London to protect the Stone and knowing is half the battle. Compare that to the Coyote trickster incident in Arizona where Xanatos explicitly told Goliath that he was getting annoyed with the "last minute upsets". Better to keep an eye on their movements. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer and all that.

As for the Demona video. It is clear cut and rational, but I doubt it'll stop any of the Demona apologists because, afterall, they don't respond to rational, reasonable arguments too well. As for doing a video of Xanatos in the same manner, I think you'd have difficulty. His crimes (receiving stolen property, corporate espionage, etc.) are really more white collar crimes compared to Demona's more violent ones. Really, the worst Xanatos did was steal the Eye of Odin and destroy public and private property in his exo-armor (which can't be proven) and kidnapping of the mutates (which maybe doesn't count if they signed up for the work). Maybe the real point is that all of Xanatos' crimes can be pinned on someone else or outright denied plausibly in a court of law.

Finally, a thought: Has anyone ever considered if Sevarius had any knowledge of gargoyles prior to his work with Xanatos on the Thailog and Mutate Projects? Something about his familiarity with the species makes me wonder...
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"It's almost as if he is trying to keep us offguard while something else is happening." - Goliath, "The Price"
posted @ Wed, Jul 11, 2012 1:38:47 pm EDT from 99.92.109.252

@Todd - Exactly. The issue with Xanatos, IMO, goes well beyond his actions towards the Gargoyles - it's his whole Modus Operandi. The guy is a borderline sociopath. "I wanted it, so I took it" - Just about everything he does is in service to his own ego, for his own personal gain, and he doesn't seem to care how many lives are destroyed in his wake. Just look at the mutates - and I'm certain they were not the only victims in that experimentation he was funding and supporting. In City of Stone Xanatos thought nothing of stealing life from others for himself, in Cloud Fathers he's perfectly okay if he has to destroy a religious and historical icon to get what he wants, and frankly could probably be charged with attempted homicide with how he was shooting those massive staples at Beth and Elisa, because they were in his way. And on and on. And he doesn't do it because he takes pleasure in causing pain, or for revenge...he just does it b/c he wants what he wants, and doesn't care who gets hurt. Considering how he is in his "personal" life, it would be interesting to find out what kind of business and labor practices his corporation engages in, domestically and internationally. GregW seems to only code a very few of his characters as "Evil" - I recall him mentioning Proteus, for example, who is a sadist (and prob Thailog falls into this category as well) and so I don't want to say Xanatos is "Evil", per se, he's got some pretty great qualities too, but I think he is a good representation of the "banality of evil" - the opposite of love is not passionate hatred, but rather, indifference. And Xanatos seems, for the most part, to be pretty apathetic with regards to the consequences his actions have on others. TGS (and for the record, I enjoyed that for what it was) kept showcasing how remorseful he was - I don't think Xanatos is often motivated by that emotion, if ever. And I've noticed a lot of people just tend to gloss over everything else he has done, and is likely still doing. He's changed the Gargoyles in his priority listing b/c they risked their lives for him and his family, when they had every reason not to. That's it. He still exemplifies the whole "Top CEO's are Sociopaths" thing to the umpteenth degree.

@Jurgen "That's probably why Redemption equals Death is such a common trope- it allows writers to avoid having to portray the messy and complicated process of making amends over time." So much THIS. It's trite and cliched.

@GregXB "We all know she'll live through them." Not if MacBeth has anything to say about it (unless....;p) Or if GregW pulls what Jurgen mentioned above. I do think way down the line, assuming she survived after her possible/maybe redemption, she'd have the makings of a great Byronic Hero.
FTBM2010
posted @ Wed, Jul 11, 2012 1:28:01 pm EDT from 74.115.160.146

<<While two-dimensional as a full character analysis>>

Which is why it wasn't. It was a list of all her, ahem, criminal acts. Not meant to be a full character analysis at all.

So, how many consecutive life sentences has she earned there? We all know she'll live through them.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." - Goliath, "The Journey."
posted @ Wed, Jul 11, 2012 12:56:35 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

As a kid, I was definitely one of those who thought Xanatos had turned completely good after Hunter's Moon. I think part of that was Goliath Chronicles's influence. While I knew there was something about TGC that I didn't like, I couldn't really articulate it, and so I didn't realize just how much mischaracterization there was. There's also the Darth Vader angle, where redemption is a switch you flip and suddenly you're a good guy. While I'm a big believer in the power of redemption, it's rarely as quick and simple as that. People can take years to truly come to grips with their own sins. I've often wondered how Vader would have interacted with the Star Wars universe had he survived- would the rest of the rebellion ever have been able to forgive him? That's probably why Redemption equals Death is such a common trope- it allows writers to avoid having to portray the messy and complicated process of making amends over time.
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
posted @ Wed, Jul 11, 2012 9:26:15 am EDT from 75.76.235.156

I think that a lot of the fandom assumed that because Xanatos had rescued the clan and let them live in the castle again, he couldn't be a schemer any more. A close look at Xanatos' actions in the series argues otherwise; his main goal wasn't to kill or capture the gargoyles, but to increase his wealth, power, and influence, and to gain immortality. The gargoyles were just the means of his schemes, not the ends. And we saw no evidence by the end of "Hunter's Moon" and "The Journey" that he'd given up those larger goals.
Todd Jensen
I'm a Hufflepuff!
posted @ Wed, Jul 11, 2012 8:58:25 am EDT from 108.226.1.5

@GregXBWhile two-dimensional as a full character analysis (I liked your own worst enemy vid more for that), that's a fast and easy response to people who try to neuter or white-wash her. You should do a rap sheet about Xanatos next - I don't think there's ANY character the fandom whitewashes as much as that guy.
FTBM2010
posted @ Wed, Jul 11, 2012 7:58:12 am EDT from 74.115.160.176

This is for all the Demona Apologists and Demona Revisionists out there. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vTvfXrVgeU
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." - Goliath, "The Journey."
posted @ Wed, Jul 11, 2012 12:07:36 am EDT from 24.185.74.60

I have just finished re-watching the Gargoyles series and will be re-reading all the comics again soon. Has there been any word of whats happening with the series? (Continuing of the comics? Releasing the whole series on DVD? Maybe even a novel would be cool? ect.)
Anonymous
posted @ Tue, Jul 10, 2012 10:09:38 pm EDT from 208.71.249.91

Sorry for the double post, but:
Should have specified, but my opinion on Season 1 does have some Season 2 Spoilers.
Antiyonder
posted @ Tue, Jul 10, 2012 9:41:37 pm EDT from 50.35.222.147

Show have specified, but my opinion on Season 1 does have some Season 2 Spoilers.
Antiyonder
posted @ Tue, Jul 10, 2012 9:10:34 pm EDT from 50.35.222.147

[SPOILER] After watching episode Y, I take back what I said about Cedric always being useless. [/SPOILER]
Spen
posted @ Tue, Jul 10, 2012 8:56:18 pm EDT from 66.43.205.4

To give my two cents on W.I.T.C.H. Season One: [SPOILER] Yeah, I consider it to be good in an average sense. Not a contender for best show, but entertaining. The only real downer with the story is that once Elyon is reunited with her brother, you pretty much know what to expect. Phobos' deception will be revealed, she'll turn against him, take over the thrown and will have made up with her friends.

With Season 2, all you can really predict is that the girls will be victorius, but Nerissa's plans are one curveball after another. Turn Matt into a Knight and later restoring the previous Guardians to their youth. Even she calls Phobos out on his predictability.

Though one thing I give to Season One is Will not only hooking up with Matt (considering that a second season was planned), but him discovering her secret. [/SPOILER]
Antiyonder
posted @ Tue, Jul 10, 2012 4:06:00 pm EDT from 50.106.9.232

I am back from Europe. Had a great time. It was really weird being someplace that I have waited half my life to see, Loch Ness and the Scottish Highlands. I will be putting pictures on my facebook page in the next couple of days. When I get them up, I will provide a link to my page so anyone who wants to see them can.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Tue, Jul 10, 2012 3:51:49 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

Braniac : [SPOILER] I didn't care much for the pilot. It had a bit of a "this is all happening because the plot demands it" feel to it. But it got better after a few episodes, with a particular increase in quality from about episode 12 onwards. I enjoyed the first season overall. It was nice to have actual continuity in an animated show, and the individual episodes were usually pretty fun. I loved Irma pretty much from day one (oddly enough, for the same reasons that I disliked Brooklyn for), and I liked most all of the regular cast. Caleb was the big exception. I don't really like mysogynist jerks. Overall, I'd give season one a 7.5 out of ten. Phobos's plans tended to rely over-much on the always useless Cedric, and Tarenee and Hay Lin seemed to get the short end of the stick in terms of screentime. And the constant use of the timekiller 'transformation porn' got old by episode three. But still, it was obvious that the show was made by people who gave a damn about what they were doing.

Season two took a solid show and made it fantastic. Nerissa was just an incredible villian. Her ability to lose a battle while winning the war would make Xanatos shiver. And I've loved the way she uses and discards minions whenever they outlive their usefulness. And huge props to Kath Soucie for that voice - she's got Eleanor Audrey's 'quiet seductive evil' thing down pat. She actually managed to make a hag sexy using her voice alone. That my friends, is talent!

And unlike last season, no one felt like they were left out of the spotlight. Hay Lin in particular got a nice arc in this one. But really, everyone got a nice moment during this season. And there've been plenty of nice twists and turns in the plot to keep me on my toes. (And a few Gargoyles refrences for those paying attention.)

And possibly my favorite thing about this show is that it's not afraid of our heroines being human. They've got their charactor flaws, and sometimes make some pretty stupid mistakes (Will in particular). Speaking for myself, I love that.

I haven't quite finished off season two yet. I watched something like 20 episodes yesterday (season two is absurdly addictive). Still two more to go, but I'm torturing myself by delaying my viewing a bit.

If I have to make any complaints about this season, it's that we still do the tranformation scene too often. Though at least we dubbed over the old voices this season, so we can finally hear Will saying 'heart' instead of 'ee urp'. And I'm not very fond of Martin. He feels like a serial killer in the making. [/SPOILER]

For those who don't want to read the spoiler, short version: watch W.I.T.C.H. You'll be glad you did.
Spen
"Am I not 'down' with my bad self?" - Prince Phobos
posted @ Tue, Jul 10, 2012 4:34:02 am EDT from 69.63.7.88

Spen> Cool. Thoughts so far?
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Mon, Jul 9, 2012 11:58:21 pm EDT from 174.101.230.22

Brainiac : "Amusingly, I kicked that one off as well and you were just as confused then as now."

That's because I only started watching W.I.T.C.H. last week.
Spen
posted @ Mon, Jul 9, 2012 9:56:09 pm EDT from 69.63.7.88

Starr> In the meantime I suggest you check out the Young Justice comic series. Even when the show is on hiatus, there's still an issue a month to look forward to.

So far there's been 17 issues, with a trade paperback reprinting #0-6.
Antiyonder
posted @ Mon, Jul 9, 2012 5:57:23 pm EDT from 50.106.9.232

Happy birthday, Alex!
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Mon, Jul 9, 2012 5:26:43 pm EDT from 130.156.7.80

Starr, Masterdramon> "While no one (not even Greg Weisman himself) knows when the current hiatus will end, most figure it'll probably start re-airing sometime in the fall."

The thinking on new episodes is starting at the end of September given the current airings. Most are presuming Cartoon Network intends to rerun all available episodes from the point they restarted at (Misplaced). So far, they've shown scheduling through to August 4th (the rerun of Auld Acquaintance, the Season One finale). Beyond that, they're either going to pick up where they left off (which most people are not assuming) or going to continue with the previously-shown Invasion episodes, meaning a new episode will finally air eight weeks later on September 29th.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Mon, Jul 9, 2012 3:45:56 pm EDT from 137.183.232.27

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