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Gargoyles

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Comments for the week ending July 29, 2012

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ANONYMOUS> Too late...

http://www.formspring.me/SetebosTempest

Algernon

I don't think I ever gave a second's thought to Lex's sexuality prior to Greg's revelation. I wouldn't even say that I assumed he was straight, as I simply didn't think about potential relationships for him, period. I gave far more thought to Broadway (since I really liked him) and Brooklyn (since for a long time I rather disliked him). Lex was always just there, as far as I was concerned. I had no strong feelings for him as a character, and so I didn't think about him much at all.

Then again, I usually don't turn my 'gaydar' on for any reason. Probably because practically everyone I've ever met assumes I'm gay, so I don't like making the same misassumption about others. And in any event, people's sexual preferences have no real relevence to my life, so I really don't care.

Spen

Just got back from reading the latest SpecGargs RP missives. Yep, both Gwen and the Goblin are goners, as expected. Now all that's left is to wait until there's an account for Mephisto, at least somewhere down the line! ;)
Anonymous

@Matt - "Yeah, logical or not, I'm not a fan of the "assume everyone is straight until proven otherwise" mentality."
This is just a side note, but leaving behind the Kinsey scale, only between 4-10% of folks are strictly (or mostly) gay. That's enough, IMO, to assume straight. Sean Maher, for example, I had assumed as straight (until that semi-famous youtube vid where Fillion smooched him during an interview - LOL it all came out until he snapped himself out of it)and simultaneously Whedon always twigged me as gay but for his very evident love for his wife (the vocal inflection thing)- so false positives are there as well) but assuming people are straight as a default isn't irrational, and shouldn't automatically be taken as offensive, even though it is at times probably annoying....Since a reasonably fair number of folks fall in a gray area anyways,still most folk fall into "straight".

FTBM2010

@Arlo - While this is obviously more general topic than Garg or YJ topic, speaking as someone who is a registered republican, and who (up until fairly recently, though no more for various reasons) almost always voted R or I, and who grew up in a VERY strict, old-school, Catholic family/environment, I know what you are talking about. Some of the visceral animosity and rhetoric aimed at Laura Bush, of all people, during Bush's admin, frankly astonished me. As one example. Another, more recent - that Chik-Fil-A PR guy, who died just recently - some of the comments I have seen and heard about him shock me as well. (For the record, I don't eat there, and never have, b/c I've been aware for a long time what they are about and the kinds of organizations (and WHAT those organizations do) they donate to) but a lot of what I have seen has been over the top. But then of course I see people chiding the "so-called tolerant" left wingers, people who don't seem to understand that implicit in tolerance is intolerance of bigotry....but plenty goes beyond that.
Bottom line is, people have their "teams" - religious, partisan, etc. Ever been to Texas? I lived there for a while - that's a team unto itself - and they (all, at times) lash out, often hypocritically, when their team is threatened, or perceived to be threatened. That's just a fact of human nature. And I think your point is well made. Being angry at theocrats/Christian Dominionists is one thing. Being angry at Christians in general is no better than hating on non-jihadist/taliban muslims. There are differences and painting everyone with the same brush makes you look like a twit. And we all do it sometimes. And as you said, we should guard against it.

FTBM2010

Greg B.> True, the Gargoyles fanbase does seem to have done a good job of taking the anti-bigotry lesson from Gargoyles. Although, (and I'm not talking about anyone in specific when I say this - in fact, I wouldn't know who to talk about even if I were - and I'm also saying this solely for the purpose of discussion, and not with the purpose of offending anyone) sometimes I wonder just how much of the lesson Gargoyles fans learned. It seems to me like the parallels that are most often referred to here are the basic ones that are shoved in our face from the time we're children (don't be racist, don't be sexist, and don't hate gays). But I've noticed, from time to time, generalizations being made about certain religious or political groups, with nary a thought given to them, as though it's common sense, like "Oh yeah, those people are all hypocrites." And I noticed recently that on the commentary track for Awakening, Part 5, Weisman says the message is that no group has a claim to being good or being bad, that we're all just people trying to find our way. And sometimes I wonder if Gargoyles fans really got that message, that people on the right don't have a claim to being all good, but people on the left also don't have it.

And I think that's one of the deeper themes that not as many fans got, that not being a bigot is an ongoing thing you have to guard against, because being a bigot - to some degree - is human nature ("It is human nature to fear what they do not understand. Their ways are not our ways."). If you keep hearing about a lot of muggings happening in a certain neighborhood, you're going to stop going there, and you'll start to have a bad view of that neighborhood. If a person is raised in a very religious upbringing that they later break away from, they might come away with a view that all religious people are rigid and closed-minded, but in reality, there are open-minded religious people too. And I think that's one of the deeper lessons of Gargoyles that didn't get as much attention from fans, that you have to follow the advice Goliath gave to Demona in "Vows" to protect against becoming bigoted yourself.

Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.

ARLO> Which is a good thing, because when someone is a fan of a series or a work that is about tolerance and acceptance, and they themselves are bigots, I just can't understand what would attract them to that work in the first place.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]

Matt> Fair enough.

Yeah, I have noticed that the Gargoyles fanbase seems to be more open to gays (and have more openly-gay members) than a lot of fanbases out there. Maybe it's because Greg Weisman himself has come out as being pretty welcoming toward gays, although it's hard to chock all this up to him exclusively. Or maybe it's just because of the culture of accepting his view of the Gargoyles Universe as the ultimate one. I'm not sure I subscribe to that view myself (not related to Lex being gay, it's just not something I'm sure I subscribe to as a general rule). But I guess I do think of Lex as being gay now, mainly because Weisman has said he is, and I do have respect for him as one of the main people who contributed to Gargoyles.

FTBM> My bad. Okay, not ALL the people who are doing that are gay.

Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.

Matt> As posted earlier, I always found fanart portraying Lex as straight somewhat disturbing. There are even some fanmade cartoons that show him straight in a way that is not even funny anymore. For example one where he binds a pillow over his face while sleeping and dreams about having his face between the boobs of a human woman (ugh, sorry, it's even hard for me to write this). It seems totally absurd to me why this was even done. Some of the cartoons were quite good, others, like these, just... trash.

About Amp: many people have the same thoughts as you, but Lex and Amp will probably not develop any deeper relationship. But as you said, Amp may still help Lex to realize his orientation.
I'm also pretty sure that Amp is gay too. And I also have a feeling that Coco could be lesbian. I'm not sure about this, though. How could I?

(I hope this post is coherent and doesn't contain too many errors. xD)

Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!

Yeah, logical or not, I'm not a fan of the "assume everyone is straight until proven otherwise" mentality.

I've explained to the best of my abilities my thoughts on the matter. All I know is that as far back as the late 90s (before the comics, before Greg W revealed it to us and even before I discovered the fandom online), I strongly suspected Lexington was gay. I talked about it with my friends. We all assumed it was something pretty obvious, but unlikely to be admitted due to the nature of the show. It wasn't something that any of us doubted. Even without the comics and everything Greg has told us, even with "Turf" and everything else, Lexington was gay to us. I also thought that, not unlike myself at the time, he had no idea he was gay yet. He was young and still learning.

So, you can imagine my surprise when I discovered the fandom a couple years later and saw that few people talked about Lex being gay. Fanfic and fanart overwhelmingly showed him as straight. It looked pretty goofy to me. Like too many people projecting their own desires unto a character that existed as a person in his own right. I was very relieved to find that Greg W had not, at that time, disclosed anything about Lex's mate (or orientation). And when he did, I had a feeling like "duh".

Now, as I mentioned, I had an advantage and a bias. In the later 90s, I think I was in the same place Lexington was. I chased girls, even had girlfriends. My male friends were all straight and I generally went through the motions. But underneath, I had some doubts and conflict. It wasn't until I finally admitted to myself that I had a crush on a male friend of mine that I realized I was gay. Lex was in the same place. And I think he is still on a parallel path to mine in many ways, especially with Staghart. Whether Staghart turns out to be gay or not is not the point, I suspect he is, but it is hard to tell with so little to go on. But Lex's crush on him, just like his orientation, was obvious to me long before Greg W admitted to it. I don't know what Lex and Amp will develop into, but I do STRONGLY believe Amp will be the catalyst for Lexington realizing that he is gay, just as my friend was for me.

So maybe it was my own experiences that helped me come to the realization and that made it somewhat obvious for me. Like I said, I can see how it could've all been interpreted differently, but hopefully with hindsight everyone can see what I saw back in the day.

And I want to add that I've always been very proud of this fandom for being so supportive of Lex being gay. It seems that whether you suspected it or not, once Greg W made the annoucement, few people seemed to disregard or refuse to accept it. Thats wonderful.

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"I was so totally wrong..." -Lexington, "Thrill Of The Hunt"

"I also find it kind of ironic that the people who are bringing up gay stereotypes the most (voice and so on) are the ones who are gay themselves."

...I did not know that about myself o.0 Although it would explain my love of silk-blends.
/So comfy.

FTBM2010

Arlo > Oh, I think most gay people would admit that there is often a certain "something" different about gay people that would clue you in to the fact that they are gay. That doesn't mean every gay man is a flaming queen or every lesbian is a bull dyke, but there's usually a little clue here or there in tone/voice/mannerisms if you have an actual conversation with them.

Maybe I started watching Gargoyles when I was too young and never really gave Lex's sexuality any thought because I was too young to care, so I just assumed he was straight because I used to assume everybody was straight. Maybe if I hadn't watched Gargoyles until I was older (and at a point when I really started to think about people's sexuality) I would have noticed the little red flags that some people have noticed.

Rebel

Matt> I think Goliath was saying that to remind the younger gargoyles to get their mind back on the game and stop flirting. I just find it a little too coincidental that Lex happens to deliver his line right after the attractive female gargoyle winks at him.

I understand what you're saying about seeing it differently yourself, but given the few things we have seen of him, I think the interpretation of him being gay, absent anything Weisman has told us, would be the view that diverges from the normal viewpoint. I think Weisman would have had to explain all that about him only pursuing Angela because it was what he was "supposed" to do in its own episode for most (not all) fans to make all the mental connections necessary for one to accept him as gay.

I also find it kind of ironic that the people who are bringing up gay stereotypes the most (voice and so on) are the ones who are gay themselves. I actually thought I had a bit of gaydar myself (even though I'm straight) because I can sometimes tell if a person is gay, not from anything specific, but just "something about them" like you guys are saying. I remember from watching the tribute to Howard Ashman which appears on The Little Mermaid Platinum DVD, I was able to pick up on the fact that he was not only gay, but that he'd also been a victim of the early AIDS epidemic, neither of which were mentioned anywhere on the DVD, and I'd never heard of Howard Ashman before I saw that. But I guess you have to be truly gay for it to work with cartoon characters.

Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.

I'm not sure why I thought this (I wasn't searching for anything like that when watching the series). It was probably just a feeling. I wasn't surprised in any way to find out he really is - just happy. :D
Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!

A long time ago I had my own personal Gargoyles marathon and I made a special point to observe any little details that might point to Lex being gay. There may have been a few others but the only two that stand out to me now are the following:

-In Awakening, when the Trio is choosing names, Brooklyn and Broadway choose names eagerly. But Lexington asks Goliath (a handsome male authority figure) for approval before he settles on his name. This could be a possible indicator of homosexuality, but it could mean a lot of other things too.
-In Pendragon, Lexington is the first to notice Griff and talk to him (5:40 at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gJ4iBOClHA), asking simply, "Who are you?". It makes sense that the resident gay-goyle would be the first to address the handsome male newcomer, but it also makes sense that somebody needed to deliver that line and it just happened to be Lex that got picked.

For those who always thought Lex was gay, were there any specific instances that made you think he way gay?

Rebel

Matt> "That said, I do need to retract my earlier statement partially. I CAN see how some people could've thought Lexington was straight."

Which was the only point I, personally, wanted to make. Case in point, I'm also gay and never got the impression he was gay (but I also don't really think about a character's sexuality because, quite frankly, I usually find it the least interesting thing about them).

There's plenty of in-series reasons to suspect he's gay. I'm just saying it's also ridiculously easy to see why interpretations would go in the opposite direction, which is a point you understand.

Harlan Phoenix

Arlo> The girls, and their behavior, was part of the fun, but weird situation. And Goliath certainly didn't think Lex was talking about the girls specifically because he added that it was also dangerous. Why would he be calling the girls dangerous? No, they were talking about the entire situation. I think if anything the girls inspired the "weird" part more than the "fun" part. I think the fun part was walking around among all these gargoyles. How those gargoyles treated them, as the girls did, was what was weird to Lex.

I don't think we EVER saw Lex interested in a female sexually. I can see how some situations could be read that way, but I guess I'm saying that I never read it that way. His lack of interest in the opposite sex and just something about his personality and voice and tone were a big indication to me. I would guess that a lot of this was coming from Thom since the writers and animators were not portraying him as gay. Maybe I was reading Thom's sexuality through Lex or something. Of course, I did not get that sense in other characters voiced by Thom, such as the Tinkerer in Spec. Spider-Man so who knows.

In any event, Lex's sexuality, up until the comics seemed more apparent through intuition than evidence. And since I saw no indication or evidence that Lex was heterosexual, I went with my gut and assumed he was gay.

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"I was so totally wrong..." -Lexington, "Thrill Of The Hunt"

For me it really is a lot of the voice delivery - from Turf: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62s2uh-uTyI&t=0m48s
as just one example, but really his delivery most of the time. I don't know if Thom was ever doing it on purpose or not, but it always twigged me for some reason.

And Turf was all about him posturing and being competitive with his brothers - he's looking at them more than her for the most part.

But I agree that it's not anything obvious, really, nothing I would call definite, including how the voice work twigged with me personally - but isn't that how it works in RL a lot of the times as well?

FTBM2010

I'm going to have to disagree on what he meant by "It's kinda fuuuun.... but weird." Just listen to the way he says the word "fun." There's no way that was about the situation and not the girls. Especially given the timing.

I am still waiting for those of you who felt it was obvious he was gay to let me know what it is you're picking up on specifically. Before the comics, I never got any indication that he had ever been interested in a male before, and we did have several instances of him being interested in females.

My impression in "Upgrade" is that they all saw it as both a duty and an honor to be chosen as second-in-command to help carry the clan forward. It wasn't about *wanting* to be leader. Your view about it being out of his competetive nature is one possible interpretation, and it may be the more accurate one now that Greg has revealed that the competing over Angela was just "the thing to do." But I don't think that's how most people necessarily would have seen it prior to hearing Greg's info.

Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.

I think the fact that so many fans (myself included) suspected or outright believed he was gay long before Greg W admitted to it is testament to the fact that there was a something to draw that conclusion in the show. I mean, unlike Lex, Matt Bluestone has never showed any interest in woman and yet there has never been much suspicion about his sexual orientation.

That said, I do need to retract my earlier statement partially. I CAN see how some people could've thought Lexington was straight. But for me, the odds of this were very low. If Greg W had revealed that Lexinton was in fact heterosexual, I would've been surprised and the idea would've irked me for some time because it wouldn't have felt right.

And for the record, I think you are all making too much of Lex's behavior in "The Mirror". He was looking at a subway station full of huans-turned-gargoyles. Three girls walk by and, seeing a group of young shirtless guys, smile and toss them a wink. That would've caused a reaction from anyone gay or straight. And Lex's comment was not about the girls in particular, but about the whole situation. "It's kinda fun... but weird."

As for "Turf", as others have mentioned that was all about competition and Lexington is an aggressive competitor. The Trio treated the situation exactly like they did with the second-in-command choice in "Upgrade", and I don't think Lexington really wanted to be the leader either. But no one uses his behavior in "Upgrade" to indicate that Lexington did want to be leader. In both episodes, Lex was competing to win, not to attain a goal. It is all part of his somewhat impulsive nature.

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"I was so totally wrong..." -Lexington, "Thrill Of The Hunt"

And just for the record, I don't know how many of you here were in that room, the night Greg revealed it. But no one in that room was surprised. In fact, as I recall, this was how it went down.

Fan: So what's the deal with Lex, is he gay or what?
Weisman: *Pauses* ...... yes, Lex is gay.
Fans in the room cheer!
Thom Adcox: I KNEW IT!!!!!!

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]

REBEL> When Greg says a "realization" he means it sort of in the sense that the "Gargoyles Universe" is a real place and his mind is tapping into it to learn the true story and tell it to the rest of us. Similarly, Fox being in love with Xanatos wasn't a "decision," it was a "realization." Same with Owen being Puck.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]

I never saw him as being gay either. Yeah yeah, I am well aware that many gay people pursue opposite-sex partners before they realize their sexuality because that's what they feel they are *supposed* to be doing (I did this before I realized I was gay). And yes, from the portrayal that we saw of Lex in the TV series, it's certainly possible that he's gay and is "interested" in females solely because he thinks he's supposed to be--but if I didn't already know that Greg W had decided he was gay, I would have considered it just as likely (if not more likely) that he was a heterosexual male who was genuinely interested in females. Frankly, if I had never known that Greg had said he was gay, it never would have occurred to me that he was.

I sometimes wonder if Greg W's "realization" that Lex was gay might have been more of a product of a reaction to Brooklyn's behavior. Brooklyn pursues relationships with females throughout the series, whereas with Lex it's just a passing comment in "The Mirror." Brooklyn is crestfallen when Angela chooses Broadway, whereas we never see a reaction like that from Lex (although to be fair, in "Turf" I always felt like he as the one who pursued her the "hardest" and most recklessly so to speak--he was the one who put himself and Angela in danger and almost got them both killed--though both Brooklyn and Broadway were pursuing her too, they didn't do anything quite as severe). So when we compare Brooklyn, who seems to be nigh-obsessed with girls, to Lex, who doesn't seem to care quite as much, yeah I guess it does call his sexuality into question a bit. Thing is though, there are a lot of perfectly valid reasons besides homosexuality why Lex wouldn't be pursuing females with the same tenacity as Brooklyn. And while I think him being homosexual is a *perfectly good* reason, and probably the most interesting reason from a storytelling standpoint, I guess on some level it bugs me, because my mind gravitates with sympathy towards heterosexual humans who maybe don't have a very high sex drive and don't pursue partners with the same zeal that others do, and the fact that many people conclude that these individuals are gay for those reasons. So for me, the "realization" that Lex is gay sorta feels almost like that--a conclusion that's been jumped to prematurely just because he doesn't chase the girls as much as Brooklyn.

None of this would bother me if Lex's sexuality was recognized as a "decision" rather than a "realization." If it were described as a "decision", I'd be like, "Oh okay." But when it's described as a "realization" I'm like, "Hey, hold on a second...there's still plenty of reasons to think he's straight."

Rebel

Lexington: Honestly, I had no idea that he could be a gay character or not. I usually assume a children's cartoon character was intended to be straight, since that's the assumed default in "family friendly" (note HEAVY sarcasm) entertainment in today's culture.

Once it was revealed that Lexington was gay, I wasn't shocked, but I also didn't find anything inexplicable about him that now made sense. I also like that he's a non-stereotypical gay character, even if he can't be strictly "outed" because of the culture his story is produced in.

Pterobat - [incisivis@gmail.com]

I also agree with Harlan about Lexington's sexual orientation not being obvious to me. Now, to be fair, I never watched Gargoyles for the romance (I didn't even realize that there was anything going on between Goliath and Elisa until "Sanctuary" when she comes right out and says it), and I didn't personally care whether the gargoyles would ever find mates, except maybe for Brooklyn, since that was a running theme on the show. I think of Lex as being gay now solely because Greg Weisman has revealed that he's gay. I'm curious to know what signs other people are seeing in the television episodes (since it's a bit more clear in the comics).

I also agree with the point about "The Mirror" and "Turf." Just listen to his voice when he says "It's kinda fuuuuun..." in the former.

Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.

Saw an interview between Greg Weisman (apparently at the San Diego Comics Con) and Comics Continuum at Comics Continuum's website. Greg talked a bit about the SLG "Gargoyles" comics, some more about the "Young Justice" comic ([SPOILER] which is embarking on a story that will include every gorilla character in DC Comics ever - Superboy's not going to enjoy that if he feels the same way about them as he does about monkeys, and will also do a six-issue story set just before Season Two that will introduce Brainiac into "Young Justice" [/SPOILER]), and finished up with a bit about "Ask Greg" (including the heavy question queue).
Todd Jensen
I'm a Hufflepuff!

I think I have to agree with Harlon on noticing whether or not Lexington is gay. I was 14 when the series first aired and I did not see it at the time. But I was not looking for that, I just wanted to enjoy my favorite TV series. But, after finding out that Lexington is gay, years after the series ended, I do see signs that point out Lex's sexual orientation after rewatching the series. And that is especially true in the comic books.
However, I am really bad at determining someone sexual orientation. When I was on tour in the UK last month, we had a tour manager. After more than a week talking to him, I assumed he was strait. But on our last night on tour, I was out to dinner with some of the girls and they pointed out to me that he was gay. And then looking back on it, the signs where obvious. Maybe I didn't notice he was gay because I didn't care if he was.

Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]

Sorry, I meant Adam.
Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!

Brainiac> I've definitely seen some fanfic including Thailog and Shari, and the new faces from the London clan (especially Amp). But to be honest, I don't read much fanfic, I just look for new stuff now and then out of curiousity.
I'm most interested in really good "dark ages" fanfic, but there's not much out there - at least not much other stuff than Goliaths and Demonas back story.

Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!

Brainiac> Thanks for the great link, Brainiac!
Shaiya

Comet : As for your question about there being gay gargoyles in TGS, I kicked the question upstairs and was told that the answer is "SPOILER REQUEST. NO COMMENT."
Spen

Matt>"I'm not sure how anyone could think of Lexington as straight."

Lexington being homosexual is an organic extrapolation, but there's no way you can honest to God say you don't understand perceiving Lex as straight male given snippets from The Mirror and, like, the entirety of Turf. Lex taking Angela's choice of Broadway as a mate easier than Brooklyn could just as easily be interpreted as a personality trait (note that Broadway wasn't exactly much of a wing chaser as Brooklyn was). You don't really need to be gay to be not be beaten up over a girl not choosing you.

Even if someone took Lexington's bonding to Staghart as a romantic attraction, past episodes still leave bisexuality as a pretty valid interpretation. I like Lexington as a homosexual and would enjoy reading a story involving that when/if Gargoyles returns, but if you don't see any logic in interpreting Lexington as a heterosexual that feels more like your faulty logic than anyone else's. Which isn't me trying to be rude, honest. I'm just baffled (as baffled as you are about the opposite, it seems) that you genuinely cannot perceive how others could draw this conclusion with episodes like Turf existing.

Harlan Phoenix

Adam> "Speeking of fanfic, does anyone know if there is any new fanfic out there that includes the comics?"

Spen> "The Formspring saga, maybe?"

Allow me to clarify. There's still an old link in the Other Sites drop-down menu above to the Gargoyles Twitter Theater. That eventually evolved into what basically amounts to real-time fanfic on the Q&A-based website Formspring. It's been running for about a year and a half now and has produced some really good stuff.

Of note is that its universe is primarily based in the non-canon Radio Play from the final Gathering in which SpecSpidey and Gargoyles were crossed over. The players have taken this concept and run with it, incorporating not only the SLG comics and known canon-in-training elements but also revealed portions of future SpecSpidey plans and the wider Marvel universe as a whole.

If you're interested in following the stories and events, you can find a basic synopsis of events so far (as well as a more-or-less complete list of the various accounts) here: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Roleplay/TheSpectacularGargoyles

Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

The Formspring saga, maybe?
Spen

I always thought that it was amazing how the guys who worked on TGS came together and could work so much mythology into their stories. Compaired to some of the other fanfic that I read, they did a great job. At the time, before I discovered Station 8 and the new comics, I thought most of them where good (save for the ruining of the Quarrymen, Xanatos, and Demona). How much info they had about Greg's master plan I don't know. I have always wondered how different TGS would have been with the information we have today (even though much of what Greg has told us is canon-in-training).

Speeking of fanfic, does anyone know if there is any new fanfic out there that includes the comics?

Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]

It's what I call "wishful characterization" - people want to see a "bad guy" go good, and don't want to wait for it, so they come up with some convoluted reason to speed the process up. Problem is, even if she "goes good", she's still going to be a hard@ss (IMO) and she wasn't in TGS at all.

With Xanatos, I think it was a similar situation, in which people really wanted to see him become a true friend to the clan and go from there, but there wasn't even really a "reason" given - he just suddenly got all remorseful, which, what? That's not him. And he had no edge either.

@Matt "As for Lex being younger... I'm not sure where that idea came from." Are you asking where *I* got it from? that ep where they got turned into humans. Or if you're asking where the writers got it from, Todd's explanation made sense to me.

I thought Lex was gay from the start as well, ironically b/c of his reaction to Fox (at the risk of stereotyping, it seemed at first like a budding "diva-worship" thing...which would explain just HOW angry he got when she and they turned on him) but I was "fanwanking" the TGS that if Lex was indeed younger and confused about his sexuality, he just developed one of those puppy crushes on the Liz girl, that aren't really crushes-as-such at all. Rationalization...

FTBM2010

"although still better than the trainwreck that was TGC."

Sometimes I wonder, because for all of it's faults, TGC didn't turn Demona into Mother Theresa.

TGC's treatements of the Quarrymen and Xanatos were just as bad as TGS's. The Quarrymen were petty thugs in both, Xanatos was Mr. Sappy Good Guy in both.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]

I'm not sure how anyone could think of Lexington as straight. And I'm baffled that an entire group of people agreed to it! I knew Lex was gay before I knew that I was. Now granted, being gay I might have some sort of "gaydar" advantage, but I'm far from the only gay person in the fandom. Wasn't this issue raised at some point?

As for Lex being younger... I'm not sure where that idea came from.

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"I was so totally wrong..." -Lexington, "Thrill Of The Hunt"

Like I said before I certainly enjoyed TGS for what it was. A lot of work and care was obviously put into it (I liked a lot of the stuff in the spin-offs as well) and it certainly gave me something to look forward to on Monday's in high school (which says something for it right there).

It was just, you know...not canon.

/although still better than the trainwreck that was TGC.

FTBM2010

People probably jump to the wrong conclusion about Lexington because he's smaller than Brooklyn and Broadway. (More likely, it means that he's simply below average height.)

Yes, TGS made a lot of mistakes and faulty guesses. The best I can say is that it made a couple of right guesses - such as that there were London gargoyles who looked like deer and wild boar as well as lions, unicorns, and griffons (and TGS completely overlooked the possibility of London gargoyles that looked like hippogriffs, though it would be a natural result of a clan with gargoyles who look like griffons and unicorns), that Merlin borrowed the Stone of Destiny from the Irish for Arthur's sword-in-the-stone feat (but didn't suspect that King Pelles was Merlin's partner), or that the Holy Grail looks like a plain wooden cup or bowl rather than a fancy golden goblet (and that wasn't so hard to guess, thanks to "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade").

But I certainly think that Greg's stories were much better than TGS's - enough that I don't think I'll ever join another such fanfic project.

Todd Jensen
I'm a Hufflepuff!

FTBM2010> What, really? That's strange.

Yeah, TGS is pretty bad although -some- of the artwork looks good (and I like the design of the site). I tried to read some bits of it again, but I did not come far... I begin to feel unwell when I stay on the site for too long, and all these stupid names... ugh.

Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!

For some reason they wrote Lexington as "younger" than his rookery siblings...I remember that really throwing me off.
FTBM2010

COMET> TGS got... a lot of things wrong. Like Demona as a nice person. ;)
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]

Algernon> I know^^ Doesn't change the fact I find it disturbing to see him portrayed as straight. (my opinion.)
Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!

COMET> I think the majority of TGS was written well before Greg revealed Lex's sexuality.
Algernon

Anyone here who read all of TGS? I have a question about it and please don't tell me I shall read all that stuff myself to get the answer :( Are there any gay Gargoyles in TGS? And what about Lex? Is he gay there? I found that much old fanwork portrays him as not (which I find pretty disturbing).
Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!

Wow, Greg really does need a break from this site.
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.

To Masterdramon: Thanks for the quick answer. Really!

Yeah, I imagined that could be the reason but I choose to ask here just to confirm. For a fan that had the chance to get in touch with the series 16 years after I first saw it, I don't need to rush. I will be patient, don't worry. =D

Glad to here that he has not give up yet. Too bad that the comic books were cancelled, but I am looking ways to import all volumes to see how the series continues. I quite sure I will enjoy it.

Anyways, thanks again for the answer and a huge "thank you!" to the administrators of this website, to all Gargoyles Wiki managers, to fans around the world and, of course, to Greg to keep the franchise alive.

Too bad that I did not know about the Gathering before (neither I would have money to go, unfortunetly =/). Let's hope that this come back soon.

And let's hope, also, that the series don't take another 10, 15 years to be back. But hey, if it does, I am sure we all be excited.

I wish Disney producers would see that, even after so long, there is still people that enjoy the series and they could give another shot. Perhaps we should create a Facebook page or some sort of Facebook campaign to show that we are all here!!!

I know it is a stupid comparassion but here in Brasil, like a year and half ago, some people started a campaign, trought Facebook and Twitter, that was to bring the Kit Kat chocolate back, since it was only on sale in our country like 30, 40 years ago. Many people had the opportunity to travel to USA, Europe and liked the chocolate. That's how http://www.kitkatnobrasil.com.br/ was created and like 6 months ago, Nestlé decided to produce and sell the chocolate here.

Who knows how many Gargoyles fans exist around the world but are Unawekened since the comic books were released only in US... It would be a start and this social medias work way better than letters or something like that.

Well, only a idea.

Like we say around here: Grande abraço!!! =D

Thomé Granemann - [granemannrosa@hotmail.com]
Opening in portuguese: Há mil anos, a superstição e a espada governavam. Foi uma época de trevas. Foi um mundo de medo. Foi a era dos Gárgulas!

Thomé: AskGreg closes to allow Greg W. to catch up on the backlog on a fairly regular basis. You'll notice that, despite all the work Greg, Todd, and I have been doing to cut down on the size of the queue recently, there are still over 900 questions waiting in line. So you'll have to exercise a little bit of patience. Greg's indicated that he will reopen the queue when the next episode of "Young Justice" airs in the U.S., sometime in the fall.

As for your other question, no, there hasn't been much of any news since the end of the SLG comic. Greg's still quite eager to do more "Gargoyles"-related material in the future, of course...but that's not up to him.

So again, patience is a necessary virtue here. Greg hasn't given up, and neither should we. But I'm afraid that there isn't, at present, anything in the cards for the franchise.

Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"Lord knows I've paid some dues, gettin' through...tangled up in blue..." - Bob Dylan

Hello guys!

I am a brazilian fan so I am sorry if there is any mistake in english.

1) I would like to know why "Ask Greg" is not accepting questions anymore. Does someone know why?

I had never ask anything and would be nice to send a message from Brazil to Greg.

2) Has Greg declaired anything about the future of the series, since the comic books are now cancelled also?

I am 22 years old so, gladly, I had the chance to watch the TV Series when it was aired here in Brazil in 1996. But the comic books never got here. Would be nice to hear that he is trying to make anything, even if has no result or answer from Disney / SLG for now...

Thanks for your attention.

Thomé Granemann - [granemannrosa@hotmail.com]
Opening in portuguese: Há mil anos, a superstição e a espada governavam. Foi uma época de trevas. Foi um mundo de medo. Foi a era dos Gárgulas!

Hey Glantern926,

For future reference, I do NOT frequent this comment room, and this is not an appropriate place to leave a message for me. However, I happened to stop by just now and saw your message, so I thought I'd be respond. But it's just a coincidence. Addressing your message in the second person to me, implies that I run or moderate the site. That's just not true.

You wrote: "I'm sorry... but I have to say the answer to the first question that you wrote to Ed came across very rude. I know you get millions of the same questions every week but that was not an appropriate response for a fan of the work you do. In the comics it is 50/50 and I know that this isn't comic continuity but I think 50/50 would have been a suitable answer instead of "I don't care". We care and we are your consumers, so to speak, so you should care as well. "

But here's the thing: I DON'T care. So should I lie to Ed and you and the other fans, or would you prefer an honest response?

Of course, I wasn't trying to be rude, just direct, but I can definitely see how my response - absent inflection - might come off as rude. But your suggestion that I just adopt, willy-nilly, the comic book continuity is unacceptable. I don't do anything like that casually. Or at least I try not to.

And, again, the truth is that I am totally, 100% uninterested in the question. The exact percentage of human to Kryptonian DNA in Superboy's make-up is of no moment and holds no grasp on my already overtaxed brain. That too is not meant to be rude, but just a fact of ME. And I don't agree that simply because one of my "consumers" (as you put it) cares about a specific point, that I should by the nature of our symbiotic relationship care as well.

In fact, there are HUNDREDS of points that at least one fan out there cares about that I just can't manage to work up any interest in. Everything from the eye color of characters who we've never seen with their masks off to how two characters from entirely separate properties might fare in a fight to the death.

The feeling of entitlement -- which assumes that just because someone watches a show I worked on and has taken the time to ask a question, that I should in turn suddenly 'care' about their concerns -- is, I strongly believe, artificial.

I care about a lot. I DO care, for example, about the ages of the characters. I care about their motivations and actions. Etc., etc., etc. But I cannot care about every possible aspect that a fan might summon up. And I do not see any point in pretending otherwise and/or grabbing a random fact from another source and using that to pretend with. (And that's assuming I have mental access to that random fact and/or the time to research it.)

So let me reiterate that ASK GREG isn't a right. (Doesn't mean it's a privilege either.) It's just a resource. But if people persist in having unrealistic expectations over what the site is supposed to be, then that puts me one step closer to giving up on it.

(Although, having made that ominous statement, let me also state that we're not close to that right now. In general - after having taken a break, I'm feeling pretty good about ASK GREG these days.)

Greg Weisman

I'm sorry... but I have to say the answer to the first question that you wrote to Ed came across very rude. I know you get millions of the same questions every week but that was not an appropriate response for a fan of the work you do. In the comics it is 50/50 and I know that this isn't comic continuity but I think 50/50 would have been a suitable answer instead of "I don't care". We care and we are your consumers, so to speak, so you should care as well.


Question received on Sat, March 24, 2012 06:36:32 PM
Ed writes...

1. What percent is Superboy Kryptonian and Human respectively?

2. Would the tranfusion have worked if Connor had given Gar blood instead of Megan because he has human DNA in him?
Greg responds...

1. Don't know. Don't care.

2. Guess it depends on Lex Luthor's blood type, but still I tend to think not, because Kryptonian blood would not be compatible with human.
Response recorded on July 25, 2012

Glantern926 - [mwaelder@gmail.com]

I received this email:

Dear Jonny,

Thank you for your e-mail. We appreciate your interest and are happy to answer your questions.

There are tentative plans to release GARGOYLES SEASON 2, VOLUME 2 and GARGOYLES SEASON 3 in 2012. No further release details are available at this time.

To view our release calendar and see what great titles are currently available and coming soon, please visit http://disneydvd.disney.go.com/release-calendar.htm.

Thank you for taking the time to contact us.
Sincerely,

Walt Disney Studios Distribution
US and Canada

Jonny Modlin - [jmodlin210@gmail.com]
Jonny Modlin

Is Disney going to release Gargoyles Season 2, Volume 2 and Season 3 on DVD in 2012?
Jonny Modlin - [jmodlin210@gmail.com]
Jonny Modlin

Spen> Yeah, I don't know who I was talking about. My bad.

I found the oldest surviving post that I made here:
http://web.archive.org/web/200102041914/http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/comment.html
As I mentioned, I was using the Gabriel avatar and blue writing at the time. I'd only been on the site for a month or two at that point. I was 18, geesh.

I find it interesting to see us discussing the London Clan and Vaskoda (another regular I miss) specifically mentioned that there were not going to be any stag or boar-like gargoyles in London. Of course, years later, Greg would change his mind on this and thus we have Staghart and Constance, but it is a lesson in why canon-in-training shouldn't be taken as fact.

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"If you wake up tomorrow and find a white cat, it's me." - Jiji, "Kiki's Delivery Sevice"

Matt : I think you got me mixed up with Siryn or somebody like that.
Spen

Supermoff : Ooh, nice bit of nostalgia, there. That would have been around the time that I rediscovered the fandom, so those names are all quite familiar to me. I miss the old image of Goliath and Elisa shaking hands. If there's one thing I can complain about regarding the new look, it's that it gives the impression that the room has always looked the same. I'd love it if the archives were still kept in their old style, just for historical accuracy. But that'd probably be a huge pain in the neck to code.

Now for a *real* blast from the past, check out this one: http://web.archive.org/web/19990420215842/http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/comment.html

Still all familiar names (except for Derek, he doesn't ring a bell), but more familiar from the TGS archives than from personal experience.

That's the oldest snippet I've ever found from the room. I wonder if anyone has anything from the old Capecod days. That was when I first stumbled across this place. And of course, there was also the 'in-between' site with the really long URL that I missed completely the first time around. I'd love to get a glimpse at that.

Spen

Pterobat> Cool moniker. And good points all around. I had noticed that most fanart beaked gargoyles have Brooklyn's beak, even though other beak shapes and sizes did appear in the show (like 'Kermit's'). I also think it is cool that you like Eboshi. She is interesting.

Comet> WOW! That takes me back. That was only a year or so after I first started posting. I was 19 then... I'm 30 now. But I'm still there with my Cuchullin and Bright Pale Yellow. Actually, for the first few months on the site I posted with Gabriel and Sky Blue, but then a guy named Gabriel started using Gabriel's pic and I let him have it because it was his name and moved to something a little less likely to be claimed: Cuchullin. Anyway, it is cool being the third post down like that. And it is really bittersweet to see some of the old regulars. I really miss Spen And Sloth and Jim R.

Going to the Ask Greg section is a trip too. Greg looks so young! I had almost forgotten about the "Who is Nought?" question in the header. The whole thing took me back to the time when I first stumbled across the site and began asking my first awkward questions.

And did anyone else notice that my one post talks about my dial-up internet giving me trouble. DIAL-UP! Geez. Ancient history right there folks.

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"If you wake up tomorrow and find a white cat, it's me." - Jiji, "Kiki's Delivery Sevice"

Demona:

I don't see the resemblance, actually.

Gargoyles fan characters:

Yeah, I was always tired of the smaller range of body types for female gargoyles in the TV series, even if you could blame most of it on Demona's genes being spread around. :P

It being repeated in fanart isn't as bad, because it's only fanart. By the same token, a canonical beaked female like Katana is more satisfying than a dozen fan characters with similar features.

The problem with fanart, though, is that a lot of it seems to be derivative of the main cast of seven gargoyles, so the features are kept the same. A good example is that most beaked gargoyle fan characters, male or female, have features derived from Brooklyn, and most female characters are based on the pattern Demona set. Very few people looked into the secondary or the background gargoyles for inspiration, which had a much wider range of designs that could be used for both genders.



Princess Mononoke:

Jurgan> "Princess Mononoke" or "Mononoke-hime" was the original Japanese title, too. "The Tale of Ashitaka" was a WIP title.

It's a wonderful film, and my favourite Miyazaki-helmed Ghibli picture. It paints a beautiful picture of a mythical conflict and the very real land it happens on. The moral complexity of the characters is another great thing. Though Ashitaka used to be my favourite character in the film, now it's Eboshi because of what a great leader she is, while still being a flawed human being.

Pterobat - [incisivis@gmail.com]

Comet> Wow, that takes me back. I must have first found the site about then, and didn't start contributing to the Comment Room for some time after that.

I just had a look at the 2002 Comment Room. A lot of unfamiliar faces, but there's Matt and Wingless and Demonskrye too. Awesome.

Supermorff

Just wanted to see what S8 looked like in the past...
http://web.archive.org/web/20020215221616/http://s8.org/gargoyles/index.php
so much better today^^ It even used pictures from the Marvel comics ... xD

Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!

Just a test... Ashitaka...
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

Got a kick out of one of Greg Weisman's most recent answers:

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/latest.php?qid=15164

Todd Jensen
I'm a Hufflepuff!

FTBM2010 : I think the old 'Down-Easter' side will win out.
Spen

Demona/Marina - while Marina is very beautiful, I honestly don't see much of a physical resemblance there, except maybe the eyes. Demona has a very distinctly heart shaped face, for one. I seem to recall though (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) that the other gargoyles' human forms in the Mirror were modeled after their voice actors, which I thought was neat. I also thought it was funny how Franks grew in a Xanatos goatee after he took the part, but in my brain, Xanatos was modeled after El Clooney. It seems female characters in comics and animation seem to suffer from "template syndrome" in general though (and male characters as well, although to a lesser extent). People just seem to like drawing particular body types, I suppose whatever is found to be in general the most aesthetically pleasing to the artist. I was happy to see a little more variation in the Garg comics, however.

Off topic, but a couple weeks ago someone mentioned it being Alexander's 16th birthday, which made me wonder: You think Xanatos is going to buy the kid a kick-@ss car, just because he can, or do you think that old Down East-er upbringing will emerge and he'll make Alex do something to "earn" it? (I see Fox either going the "spoil my baby boy" route, or alternatively, encouraging him to steal a car and get away with it, for the lulz).

FTBM2010

I think the Japanese title was "The Tale of Ashitaka" (in Japanese), but they changed it for the American release. Probably they thought princesses were more marketable over here- it's funny because they only call her that once in the whole movie.
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]

Brainiac> *raises hand*

Barbie Gargoyles> Greg was well aware of the problem with female gargoyles for years and with the comics has really turned the tables a bit. Constance gives us a female without the typical Demona/Angela/Sora/Turquesa/Obsidiana/Ophelia body type. Katana gives us a female with a beak. Eventually, we'd also see Hyppolyta and Hudson's Mate as hairless females. Even gargoyles like 'Sacrifice' have broken the mold a bit.
As for fanart, I know there is a lot of tendency to draw Barbie gargoyles, but I have to also give the fan artists credit where it is due. The first beaked females I saw were not canon, but came from the artists.

Princess Mononoke> Part of me feels that I should write up exactly why I love this movie so much and why it is one of my favorite films and how it does move me emotionally and spiritually, but I figure it is somewhat pointless. This is a subjective matter and it is okay if others don't react to the movie the same way I do.
Suffice to say that what most appeals to me in the film is the complete erasure of good and bad roles. There is hardly anything, or anyone, that I consider to be a hero or villain. There is no concept that is totally black and white. Hiboshi is a powerful businesswoman who has cleared the forest and made enemies along the way, but she also has freed many women from a life as prostitutes and gives a community of lepers a good life and jobs. Is she really a villain? Mononoke is a friend of the gods and wants to protect her home and forest, but she is also consumed by revenge and insecurity. Is she really a hero? Even the Great Forest Spirit grants life AND death. Just look what he does with every footfall.

I suppose the one thing I do agree about is that the film was not well named, since Mononoke doesn't seem to the focus to me. And even though he is the character we follow, I'm not sure that "Prince Ashitaka" would've worked either. Hehe.

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"If you wake up tomorrow and find a white cat, it's me." - Jiji, "Kiki's Delivery Sevice"

Greg> Good point. But if it isn't the case, they have GOT to be psychic. I mean, the resemblance there is both striking and wonderful. Now you have got me wondering...
Shaiya

<<I agree I think the animators did a wonderful job taking inspiration from Marina Sirtis to flavor Demona's character.>>

Did they? Greg has never mentioned this. We know that photos were taken of Salli Richardson to inspire elisa after Salli's mixed race background inspired Elisa's (she was originally going to be hispanic), but if the animators took inspiration from Marina Sirtis, this is the first I'm hearing about it.

Until Greg, or anyone else involved with the series say otherwise, I'm filing this away with the rumor that Xanatos was modeled after Jonathan Frakes (he wasn't).

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]

Actually, I also had a small crush on the Weird Sisters, I just didn't know any women did. Maybe crushing on them is universal, regardless of gender. But yes, it was, of course, during their "City of Stone" days, and not their "Avalon" days, where they came across as petty and vindictive. I also think the modern, '90s outfits might have helped...
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.

Brainiac> Here :D

Shaiya> Of course, but these characters mostly act like little human girls... which makes it worse. :S I also simply get annoyed by the fact that many fans draw cool looking male Gargoyles and these female girlies. Although this was far worse in the past.

Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!

Arlo> He he :) Actually, I rather like the human Demona avatar. Maybe I'll keep her.

J29> Don't worry, I think the girlcrush on the Weird Sisters thing is basically universal. Pretty, great voices, and mysterious. Still, for me, the lady of the lake blew them all away.

Nicola> I agree I think the animators did a wonderful job taking inspiration from Marina Sirtis to flavor Demona's character. *nod* Lexington and Angela are both really approachable characters. They have a good way about their tones and body language that are calming and friendly.

Phoenician> Exact dates weren't noted much, but I always loved how the seasons changed, and that the gargoyles reacted to them (instead of it just being incidental "background" that happened to be there.) Stuff like when Brooklyn shivers and complains because the winter is cold made the universe more three-dimensional for me.

Anthony Tini> For me, Princess Mononoke was moving mainly because of the boars that were "consumed". It was as if these various characters from very different, isolated-from-each-other worlds, and almost no ability to see eye-to-eye were clashed together. When the heroes step up to fight, as it were, I was moved by how desperately they wanted to calm the villains, to try to salvage and protect, even though it hurt them, and their heroics might cost them their lives.

Comet> Well, it's what's inside that counts most I suppose :) Though now I want a gargoyle barbie doll...

Shaiya

Show of hands; who's amused by Anthony Tini's post triggering the filter?
Brainiac - [OSBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

Once again I'm disappointed by the look of many female Gargoyle characters. Like Barbie dolls dipped in neon paint with stuck on wings, tails and horns. Awesome.
Yesyesyes, we had this several times now..... but it doesn't get better because of that. :C

On the other hand, I found these really beautiful characters (yes, I love beaks):
http://fidopaws.deviantart.com/art/Whisper-stance-180535310
http://shinga.deviantart.com/art/Hier-kommt-die-Sonne-44440373

Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!

Lurker: It did indeed hit my Junk E-Mail folder, I'm afraid. Just replied.
Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"Lord knows I've paid some dues, gettin' through...tangled up in blue..." - Bob Dylan

mastedraemon> I sent you an email. Not sure if you received it or it went to junk mail. I know its out of the blue but can you check it out, if you havent already?
Lurker

Last week, there was a brief discussion where a few people were praising and recommending "Princess Mononoke". While it was a movie I've heard nothing but good things about, it wasn't until tonight where I finally got to sit down and watch it.

Initial thoughts: While I understand the whole industrial verses nature aspect of the movie and the animation was gorgeous, the movie didn't "do it" for me, in other words, it didn't move me emotionally. In an animated feature, like Disney films as a child, and now, later in life, where Pixar has far surpassed Disney in quality, BOTH have done great things in touching my heart and pulling at those heart strings. Unfortunately, I didn't get that experience from "Princess Mononoke". I was really hoping to and it just didn't happen. I didn't care about the princess at all and maybe it could have been partly because I didn't care for Claire Danes voice acting. I thought the beginning was fantastic and the whole theme of battling your inner demons was well done. In the end, I think the movie should have been called "Prince Ashitaka".

I'd love to hear others' thoughts on how the movie touched them and/or what they loved and didn't love about it and why they think it gets so much praise from so many.

Anthony Tini

So after getting a kick out of this latest response from Greg (http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=15154), I took a quick scan of the timeline on the GargWiki to see what may have also intentionally/coincidentally fallen on November 11th . . . for those curious, only three dates in the years 1994-1996 have so far been been revealed:

1994: The pre-midnight festivities of "Temptation," including Brooklyn joy-ride and the bike blowing up.

1995: The post-midnight events of "City of Stone Part Two" and pre-midnight events of "City of Stone Part Three" from the team up of Goliath & Xanatos to Owen & Elisa's pre-stone tussles d:

1996: Just a snippet from "Rock & Roll" here, with Shari telling Thailog about Saint Columba's taming of the Loch Ness Monster at 5:38am EST.

*sigh* . . . a shame Greg's not done a "This Day in SpecSpidey Universe History" (though thanks to the Halloween and Thanksgiving eps, we can dwindle the guessing to "Persona," "Group Therapy," and "Intervention") ;)

Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible . . . I hope it lasts," -- Willy Wonka

And Shaiya takes the lead by having a human Demona avatar, plus expressing an openness toward girls. A close runner-up is J29, followed by Nicola.
Arlo

As for characters with charm, I always found Lexington really sweet, and seemed to me the most approachable of all the gargoyles.

I would agree that Marina Sirtis has a wonderful strong beauty, which the animators transferred to Demona.

Nicola
If you let a frown become your normality, you don't set an example for the youth of our humanity.

Character charms, huh? I have to say for myself, I'm all about Macbeth. The tragic backstory, the Batman-like competence, the sense of honor, the accent...It's a long list. I'm picturing his college courses being packed with swooning female students like Indiana Jones and him just have no idea how to handle it and being vaguely weirded out.

*small voice* ImayalsohavehadatinygirlcrushontheWeirdSisters. But only in their arbiters of fate a la City of Stone incarnation. Once they got all petty and vindictive and started hanging out with the Archmage they lost me.

J29
"Love makes you do the wacky."

Jurgan> I couldn't help but giggle at the accidental pic of Hudson grinning, next to your comment about Elisa's tight jeans... :D

Since the topic seems to loosely be which character has the greatest charms, I've got to admit Hudson totally does have it in my opinion,,, as far as old soldiers go, in any case. ;) Demona was attractive, too. (Though considering her actress, it would be hard NOT to be pretty awesome.)

Shaiya

"And we... are GARGOYLES!"

What a fantastic way to finish the countdown. Somebody planned this...

Supermorff

Vinnie : You're ninth, actually. Or in other words, "The year is 2198..."
Spen

Ate Eight (8)!!!!!!!!
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Obama eat's Dog!

[The link if anyone doesn't have it handy: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=149]

Arlo = We are defenders of the night!

Me = We are protectors of this world!

Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"Lord knows I've paid some dues, gettin' through...tangled up in blue..." - Bob Dylan

Speaking of TGS, I understand why Greg doesn't want to release anymore secrets to us, but I do wish he would write out the remaining stories and leave them to the fans in his will or something, so we could finally get them published when Gargoyles falls into the public domain in 2089. Assuming I live long enough to see it, I'll be 107 then, and the promise of getting to see more of his stories is more than enough to give me the energy to live that long.

Seventh.

Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.

errrr . . . SIXTH or "And we may be your last hope for freedom…"
Phoenician
"--then we are awake, but we are *very* confused . . . " -- The Waco Kid

Humanity is helpless!
Chip - [Sir_Griff723@yahoo.com]
The premise of your question is flawed. You were never human. But you WERE heroes.~~Red Tornado

Wow, you're popular, Brains. Ahem:

Navigating an uneasy truce with the human race.

Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]

<sigh>

Second time getting beat by the security code. I shall correct myself.

"For the last two hundred years we have faced the future,"

Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

I think that worked a little too well.
Spen

But now the planet Earth itself is under attack!
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]

Let's pick up what Brainiac tried last week:


But our struggle was far from over...

Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]

Let's try 2198 again, shall we?

But our struggle was far from over...

Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

I haven't been first in years. So I think I'll claim it, and use Brainiac's idea from last week.

But our struggle was far from over...

Spen