Comment Room Archive : Gargoyles : Station Eight

Honestly, the biggest issue this could raise is the timing of a new rookery for the Avalon Clan. Going by Angela not having seen an egg before in Issue #12, it's apparent that the Avalon Clan has not had a clutch yet (which makes sense mathematically - given a 1058 hatching, none of them are yet forty chronologically). However, even given early cycling in 2007 (they still wouldn't be over 40 chronologically, but it kinda makes sense the cycle could trigger early - a gargoyle female might be able to enter a heat by around 40 but being a hatching decade rather than a laying decade prevents that), there's an issue.

An egg on Avalon would require 240 years by mortal reckoning to develop to full for hatching. Unless there's some form of compensation or the eggs are off the island for some period of time, the Avalon Clan's eggs won't be ready by 2198 (6 months becomes 12 years, so they will have been laid in 2019; they'll only be about 2/3rds of the way to full-term).

I've actually done the math. If the Avalon clan females were indeed restricted to the exact moment they'd hit an autumnal equinox when they're approaching fifty, even their heats wouldn't make it before 2198; 1058 + (49.5 years * 24) = 2246. Eggs would be laid in 2258. Eggs would hatch in 2498.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Sun, Aug 5, 2012 10:43:20 pm EDT from 174.101.230.22

I still think that is the beasts go by normal gargoyle cycles then the gargoyles would have to as well. Since the other two beasts have only had one egg, the gargoyles would have to wait to have their first egg. Of course, this is all guess work and anything that Greg has commented on would be canon-in-training anyway.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Sun, Aug 5, 2012 9:08:20 pm EDT from 24.118.35.68

And it's hard to bring in science when you have magic compensating also. So, I buy into Avalon and the lifecycle.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Sun, Aug 5, 2012 7:01:51 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

Because, according to Greg, while time in the real world moves like it does here and time on Avalon moves like it does there, on Avalon the natural cycles move like they do in the real world... apparently.

Avalon is on Earth... kind of. It is connected to Earth, but isn't strictly bonded to Earth in either space or time. More like another dimension that overlays the planet.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"I was so totally wrong..." -Lexington, "Thrill Of The Hunt"
posted @ Sun, Aug 5, 2012 4:09:50 pm EDT from 99.92.109.252

Moving a clock back and forth from Avalon to Earth (I hate this terminology, actually, isn't Avalon ON Earth?) would not cause the clock to speed up or slow down relative to itself. So I'm really not following the logic in why it would alter the speed of reproductive cycles in gargoyles.
Patrick
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Sun, Aug 5, 2012 3:16:41 pm EDT from 76.190.228.74

Matt> Right, but on Avalon the Earth's cycle is so fast that it will encourage female gargoyles' internal cycles to get shorter and shorter, but the extent to which this is possible will depend of the individual females' own biology. Hence you could get heats outside of Avalon, but only some of the Avalon gargs will be affected... others won't go into heat until the next heat (which, for them, will only be ten months later).

Of course, this is a bit complicated and doesn't add much in the way of drama as far as I can tell, so is probably not going to be what actually ends up happening.
Supermorff
posted @ Sun, Aug 5, 2012 6:12:41 am EDT from 86.174.144.170

Sorry, meant to say that I agree with Supermorff's second paragraph but would add that a female's internal cycle can and will shift in time to match the Earth's cycle. This leads me to believe the Earth cycle is the more dominant one and the female's internal cycle is just following the Earth's lead.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"I was so totally wrong..." -Lexington, "Thrill Of The Hunt"
posted @ Sun, Aug 5, 2012 5:23:03 am EDT from 99.92.109.252

Yes, but assuming gargates are hatched with all their ova in place, I highly doubt they only have three in there. Even mammals that are born with all their ova usually have far more than they'll ever need. Saying there is a precedent for this is true, but saying there is a precedent for something being born with such a minimal amount of ova is not.

I do largely agree with Supermorff's second paragraph though.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"I was so totally wrong..." -Lexington, "Thrill Of The Hunt"
posted @ Sun, Aug 5, 2012 5:21:16 am EDT from 99.92.109.252

Two main thoughts: First, female mammals have all of their ova at birth. Gargates may or may not be the same, but there is precedent for a limitation of the number of eggs a female can produce.

Second, my feeling would be that females have their own individual rhythms, but they might be inconsistent and so they tie in to the Earth's bio-rhythms to be synchronised. (Again, there's a sort of precedent among mammals of menstrual synchronicity, although in mammals they are only synchronising with each other and not with the Earth as a whole.) Females' bodies will go into heat approximately every twenty years, when their own cycles think this is okay AND the Earth's cycle hits the relevant stage (i.e. making it EXACTLY twenty years). On Avalon, the female gargoyles will have their own cycles, but the background Earth cycle will turn much more rapidly. Therefore, a female with a relatively fast individual cycle might go into heat earlier than a female with a slower cycle.
Supermorff
posted @ Sat, Aug 4, 2012 2:19:09 pm EDT from 86.174.144.170

Jurgan> I ran an archive search. Here's some of what I found:

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=12116
http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=10358
http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=7559

Given this information, I'm guessing a female gargoyle could stress her body through shifting between Avalon and the real world...but not at the rate of once an Avalonian year. At a guess, I'd say it could be possible to go to four to six eggs with some careful management and a medical expert to consult with (most likely magical, considering the length of "mortal world" time we're dealing with here).

Overall, I don't think the potential numbers outweigh the potential risks, but that's me.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Sat, Aug 4, 2012 1:30:19 am EDT from 174.101.230.22

We had this discussion about fertility of Avalon gargoyles before. I'm pretty sure Greg W. eventually stepped in, or was asked, and said that the bodies of female gargoyles could only handle three pregnancies in their lifetimes, regardless of the cycles of the earth. And Avalon isn't entirely in tune with Earth, anyway- it has its own ecosystem, largely isolated.
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
posted @ Sat, Aug 4, 2012 12:08:24 am EDT from 75.76.235.156

VoLpe> That would probably be more appreciable if every other piece of media wasn't already aggressively nostalgia driven.

I appreciate Gargoyles getting ANY nods, but I got to where they just arbitrarily named shows that were on "back in the day!" and turned it off. How they got Dante Basco as a guest, apparently, seems like a miracle of modern science.

The fact Gargoyles is still given props is a nice notion, however, and I thank you for at least bringing that to my attention. Even if Gargoyles is just lumped in one of those conversations where, dude, do you totally remember [insert chain of shows], that's still a count toward it being a viable property in the minds of prospective consumers.
Harlan Phoenix
posted @ Fri, Aug 3, 2012 10:15:46 pm EDT from 76.2.69.249

Braniac> You are, of course, totally right. But I was just going off of what Greg has told us. My thought would be not that pairs would leave Avalon to conceive and lay their eggs, but rather that they would stay on Avalon until the egg was laid and then the egg itself would be taken to the real world to incubate for ten years there.

I would think that as long as the female is of fertile age, anytime the Earth cycles back, she would go into heat and could conceive. Of course, this opens up all sorts of other questions. A female on Avalon would be going into heat every ten months or so. What would THAT be like? And if she does conceive, would she go into heat after laying an egg a mere four months previously? And how would the heats, the laying and the hatching dates all be changed on Avalon, to say nothing of transporting between there and the real world? Could a female choose to skip heats to recover? The London Clans experiences seem to indicate that full isolation is needed to skip a heat.

Really, it is a big mess. I suspect Greg will eventually reveal that the magic of Avalon compensates somehow. That would work for me because the seasons on Avalon are all wonky anyway (it is always summer!). But another possibility, and one that does make some sense, is that gargates evolved their cycles long before magic had incubated into its current manifestation and produced Avalon and thus the two are incompatible. In this scenario, gargoyles would be unable to conceive and incubate on Avalon at all since, by definition, the island is not an Earth-bound locale. But like I said, for simplicity, I imagine that Greg will say that Avalon compensates one way or another.

And for the record, the "baby factory", assuming it would work at all, doesn't feel right to me either. I don't think that any gargoyle would feel right about producing dozens of eggs in their lives. But if an Avalon gargoyle pair could produce four or five eggs instead of three, it would greatly help their clan and their species in terms of numbers. And frankly, if all the clans are going to be strong in number and three new clans have been or are being formed by 2198, the gargoyles are going to have to come from somewhere soon. Gargoyles reproduce very slowly, and in this regard 200 years is a relatively short time.

1997 had better be the last year that any clans refrain from laying eggs ala the London Clan. By 2018, the clans will be communicating better and many of them will be desperate for numbers.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"I was so totally wrong..." -Lexington, "Thrill Of The Hunt"
posted @ Fri, Aug 3, 2012 9:12:09 pm EDT from 99.92.109.252

Matt> Don't be so sure. We don't yet know how the breeding cycle is affected by the passage of time. If the twenty-year cycle is fully internalized, than three eggs (four for beasts) is the natural limit. If it's affected by the cycle of the outside world rather than the slowed time of Avalon, then the Avalon Clan could indeed have extra fertility. However, if their cycles are dependent on their location, returning to "the mortal world" just to trigger a mating cycle might cause some major biological disruption, far worse than standard jet-lag. Personally, I don't think the cycles are fully internalized, but we haven't seen any clones produce eggs in canon yet. That would be the biggest indicator to me that the cycle is just as dependent on the Earth's cycles as the gargoyles' own.

I'd also point out that "exploiting" Avalon's time differential would have to be done very carefully. After all, a female gargoyle on the island is carrying her egg for the "mortal world" equivalent of roughly 4,320 days...about a dozen years. All of the other eggs for the cycle will have been laid and hatched by then. In other words, for this exploitation to work, an Avalon breeding pair that wants to contribute to the other clans would likely have to leave the island, mate, and then the female would have to wait six months before laying her egg in the outside world before returning to the island - a passage of just over a week on Avalon.

Of course, after less than a year back on Avalon, the cycle could be exploited again...though somehow, this "baby factory" setup kinda squicks me out. And of course, if gargoyle females are egg-limited, all the cycle exploitation in the world won't matter, not to mention potentially cause unexpected stresses on the biology of female gargates.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Fri, Aug 3, 2012 8:24:51 pm EDT from 174.101.230.22

Constance is also the only member of the London clan we know of whose name doesn't reflect the kind of heraldic animal she resembles, though I don't know if that's connected to her being the only one we know of with batlike wings or not.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Fri, Aug 3, 2012 8:21:19 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

Adam> Don't get upset if people don't reply to everything you say. Sometimes, no one has any ideas or anything to say, so they don't.

Do you mean we speculated about Constance and Staghart's names right after "The Rock" came out? Because before that we didn't even know of their existence.

I think that the Loch Ness Clan has been isolated so long that any physical features have long ago disapeared or been integrated into the native gene pool. Of course, I would've said the same thing about the London Clan if you had asked me before we met Constance. In fact, her wings are one of the most puzzling new things in the comics. They are so completly different from other London gargoyle wings; they look just like Brooklyn's or Obsidiana's. So I have to assume that Constance has an ancestor from another clan. But when did that happen? We have no idea. And we know it wasn't done on a whim by the artist since I recall Greg saying that he specified that Constance should have bat-like wings.

Anyway, I think most of the Scottish Clan that will be showing up in other clans down the road will come not from the Loch Ness or Manhattan or Labyrinth Clans, but from the Avalon Clan. Due to the passage of time on the island, female gargoyles should be able to produce more than the three eggs as is typical. If many of those eggs were brought into the real world to incubate, then by 2198 a huge majority of Scottish gargoyles will be descended from the Avalon Clan. In fact, I imagine that many of the gargoyles that join the Manhattan Clan, as well as help found the Wyvern, Camelot and Liberty Clans, will be born of Avalon eggs.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"I was so totally wrong..." -Lexington, "Thrill Of The Hunt"
posted @ Fri, Aug 3, 2012 7:41:57 pm EDT from 99.92.109.252

@Greg Hey that's awesome! The Gate design is awesome, very similar to the original! Badass tattoo as well, congrats! If Demona spots you, she may just want to take your arm ;)

Hey guys, I wanted to stop by to let you know that Gargoyles was mentioned briefly in this upcoming online series http://youtu.be/YDUkYN6L2l4

It seems very cool and as mostly all of us are part of 80s and 90s generation, I think we could really appreciate something like this.
VoLpE - [dilbertje@gmail.com]
posted @ Fri, Aug 3, 2012 6:30:36 pm EDT from 70.125.5.114

Greg B- I posted a comment about speculating what the names of the other two gargoyle beasts of the Avalon clan could be named (like we did years ago with Constance and Staghart), but only one replied to me.

We once talked about how the Manhattan Clan would get more members of "Scottish stock", and one of us speculated that maybe the London clan has a small group that are "Scottish stock" living there. But how about the group living with the Loch Ness clan? I did not think of it until Matt responded to a question I had earlier this week. I know from experience, there is not a lot of people there, and from the show, there seems to be a large number a caves under water that could support non-aquatic gargoyles. What do you think?
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Fri, Aug 3, 2012 5:03:48 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

Quiet day.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
I have a message for Germany. That you are all going to die. And I want you to look deep into the face of the Jew that is going to do it! Marcel... burn it down. My name is Shosanna Dreyfus and THIS is the face... of Jewish vengeance!
posted @ Fri, Aug 3, 2012 4:36:39 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

Arlo: My TV's 35 years old, and it plays those lines just fine. I've got a fairly decent (if outdated) stereo system, though.
Spen
posted @ Thu, Aug 2, 2012 10:29:36 pm EDT from 69.63.7.88

Harlan> It was a gift from a friend.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
posted @ Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:28:50 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

Bishanky> How did you get that Phoenix Gate ornament?

I want that more than life.
Harlan Phoenix
posted @ Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:22:34 pm EDT from 76.2.69.249

This tattoo rocks.
Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!
posted @ Thu, Aug 2, 2012 7:33:20 pm EDT from 80.187.103.188

The Gate design is beautiful. I received this ornament as a gift two years ago:

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/163428_10150101683808615_1882004_n.jpg

It's hanging on a window.

And look at what I've got permanently inked into my upper arm:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v661/gregx/Gathering%202007/tattoo.jpg
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
posted @ Thu, Aug 2, 2012 6:45:40 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

Thanks to EVERYONE for their input lol.
@Phoenician - XD thanks, like yours as well! And yes, I noticed that..but kind of excused it as, it different depending on who held it, because of their size. But, that is nice to know and actually does make sense.
@Arlo - Actually, it's going to be made with one of those 3D Printers. I wish I could afford everything, like gold/metallic edging and such but, it's simply going to be painted. Boyfriend will kill me if he finds out but, I think the whole process is super cool so, yeah, asked a friend (who is doing this sort of thing, not pro but yeah, I like what she's done so far) to make me a Phoenix Gate lol. I'll be sure to show pictures, as long as people don't flame for it not being..super awesome (it will be to me!!).

As far as it being made to fit my hand, I don't know lol. I think I am going to base it off of Kythera's Phoenix Gate
http://images.elfwood.com/fanq/j/c/jcontreras2/phxgatec.jpg Except slightly larger..not much though. I just wish, I could find an artist to actually color it in that fashion (with her permission of course). I mean, I trust the artist doing it now..to be able to but, that's a lot more work she'd have to put into it and..means more money so, I'll be satisfied with the canon coloring lol.

Also..so.......no more DVD's, known this for a while..now no more comics? I apologize, I do not keep up with all of this like you guys do. I should, but don't..but yeah....kind of irritates me that the comics are no longer being made as well. I, at least think, the DVD seasons should be finished, period, since they were started.
Phoenix - [shugotenshi_sama@yahoo.com]
posted @ Thu, Aug 2, 2012 6:32:29 pm EDT from 96.235.24.16

"Cordelia" would be all the more appropriate because one member of the Avalon clan (though a gargoyle, not a gargoyle beast) is already named after a major female character from Shakespeare (though obviously the Magus, Princess Katharine, and Tom couldn't have named her directly after a Shakespeare character, judging from when the eggs must have hatched).
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Thu, Aug 2, 2012 6:06:57 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

How about a new topic. We know that the beasts of the Avalon clan are going to be named after warriors. What do you think the other two beasts will be named. My vote is for Cordelia (after a legendary Queen of the Britons) and Connla (named after Cu Chullain's son). What do you guys think?
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Thu, Aug 2, 2012 5:30:42 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

@Phoenix What Rebel said is what I was inferring. I didn't think you planned on wearing it. :)

http://www.gargoyles-fans.org/characters/images/phoenix_gate.jpg
Anthony Tini
posted @ Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:25:18 am EDT from 159.240.11.159

If I were making a custom Phoenix Gate for myself, I would make it to fit MY hand, since there's no consistent size for the gate. I would have it fit my hand the way it fits Goliath's hand in this youtube video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYYOLityZM8&t=0m52s

So basically, I'd measure my own hand to figure out how large to make my Phoenix Gate.
Rebel
posted @ Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:34:11 am EDT from 69.134.147.145

Okay, so I can verify that this is a TV-stereo issue, and not a defective DVD. Playing the DVD in my computer makes those lines appear. Playing with the stereo settings of my TV caused the "Put him down, ugly" line to appear, but oddly enough, not the "Yo, partner!" one. It should be noted that the TV I'm using is about ten years old. It has stereo settings and the ability to play DVDs, but it isn't flat-panel or digital.

I just have to say having the Phoenix Gate made is an awesome idea. Be sure to show us a picture when it's done. I doubt if Greg has ever posted info about its dimensions (or the dimensions of Goliath's hand, since it seems to fit nicely in it), but I'd ask him. It's too bad they aren't making the comics anymore, he could have passed it along to the art designer, who would be more likely to know that sort of thing.

Just curious, what are you having it made out of? Are you going to use actual gold for the edges and the design, or just paint them gold?
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:39:23 pm EDT from 173.54.75.76

Phoenix: (nice name) -- From what Greg wrote in his Ramble on "Vows" (http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=132):

"The Gate itself is very idiosyncratic. It's size, the size of its portal, and the duration the portal stays open seems to vary not just from episode to episode but from scene to scene. Sometimes it annoys me, like when Princess Elena removes the Gate from her sleeve, and suddenly it's bigger than her hand. But now I'm just amused by it. Again, if you think of it as a steam valve for the timestream, it explains a lot."

So even if you paid crazy attention to the eps, I doubt you'll find anything definitively consistent, lol
Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible . . . I hope it lasts," -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:37:00 pm EDT from 174.109.76.15

@Anthony Tini - I do not plan on wearing it period. And, I'd rather it be as close to the actual dimensions as possible (this is why I do not cosplay XD). I was going to try and base it off his size, in perspective, however..I don't know his size either? I'm going to assume the gate is at least 8 inches wide, by 8 or 10 inches long/tall/whatever and...maybe half an inch thick but, I dunno...
Phoenix - [shugotenshi_sama@yahoo.com]
posted @ Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:15:07 pm EDT from 96.235.24.16

The Archmage wears it in the middle of his chest, so if I were you I'd measure your dimensions and customize it to fit you.
Anthony Tini
posted @ Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:09:31 pm EDT from 50.29.205.45

The Archmage wears it in the middle of his chest, so if I were you I'd measure your dimensions and customize it to fit you.
Anthony Tini
posted @ Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:09:30 pm EDT from 50.29.205.45

So, I'm having a custom item of the Phoenix Gate made, and..the question was asked of me..what size should it be? And..yeah...I have no idea. I've tried looking around, but, I'm not sure. I'll ask here first, and if nobody knows..I'll "Ask Greg"? but yeah. Do any of my fellow Gargoyles fans have any idea of the "canon" dimensions of the Phoenix Gate?
Phoenix - [shugotenshi_sama@yahoo.com]
posted @ Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:03:02 pm EDT from 96.235.24.16

Todd> Thanks for letting me know. I guess I'll hold off on replacing them until we find out a little bit more about this.

FTBM> Well I know they might not have a happy ending because Gargoyles is Gargoyles and there will always be conflict. But what I meant was making them soul mates at this point would just be too mushy/sickengly sweet. I'm sure Greg loves the irony that two people being linked for life is what is traditionally given to soul mates in the fairy tales, so for Macbeth and Demona to be enemies who hate each other instead is what makes the story interesting and tragic.

Also, Macbeth wasn't always hunting her because he wanted to die. Remember how she said "Aren't you tired of talking about it?" in City of Stone, and then he had to tell her he was there to kill her? She even said "What then? You know the rules. Killing me will gain you nothing but your own death," and he had to tell her that was what he'd wanted. For a long time, he'd apparently been hunting her because he wanted to have it out verbally (remember she says "Aren't you tired of talking about it?"). So I think he was hunting her for the majority of that time because he hated her for the betrayal that ultimately led him to lose his family and needed some kind of justice from her, not because he wanted to die.
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:31:42 pm EDT from 173.54.75.76

I would imagine that post production on "Young Justice" is keeping him busy.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
posted @ Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:48:49 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

PRGIRL - Maybe the Olympics have something to do with it?

Those lines are missing on my DVD as well. Since they're all coming from off-stage, I wonder if it's something to do with the television set's sound system - that you need some kind of stereo effect to hear them.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:36:45 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

@Arlo - also I agree with you that she wasn't actually in love with him in COS. I think she was just fonder of him than she would be willing to admit. Which isn't much generally speaking, although it is a lot *for her*.
FTBM2010
posted @ Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:27:15 pm EDT from 173.45.124.219

@J29 - I don't see him as a villian by nature, or one currently. I think deep down he's a good man, and strives to be a good man, and feels remorse when he fails at that. I was pointing out that he has a dark side, and when he's in a dark place (as he was in the beginning of the series) it comes out. Has GregXB said, he's not a saint.

Random question - why, in the comics, esp. coming after "Pendragon", is macbeth under the impression the gargoyles will be "at each others' throats" when they meet up in London? it was a comedic moment to be sure, but it didn't really make any sense to me that he would jump to that conclusion.

@Supermorff - I don't think for a second that M ever had any intention of betraying her.

@Arlo - he was hunting her partly b/c of her betrayal, and partly because he wanted to die. Also, to play devil's advocate, having them patch things up wouldn't necessarily be a "fairy tale" ending - esp. if it doesn't end. Or if it did end, if one had to off the other, that would be a tragedy in and of itself. But even barring that, just because they *may* someday "find sanctuary in each other", doesn't mean they would automatically be transported to Happy Gumdrop Land to live out the rest of their days. We have no idea what the short or long term ramifications would be, or what else they might come to face. This isn't Moonlighting.
FTBM2010
posted @ Wed, Aug 1, 2012 5:59:37 pm EDT from 173.45.124.219

Hey, Greg. I've noticed that you haven't answered your questions in the last few days. What's up with that?
PRgirl1294
posted @ Wed, Aug 1, 2012 5:13:22 pm EDT from 99.140.218.164

I've noticed that you haven't answered your questions in the last few days. What's up with that?
PRgirl1294 - [caripr94@gmail.com]
posted @ Wed, Aug 1, 2012 5:11:21 pm EDT from 99.140.218.164

Well, I guess it's a matter of interpretation. My understanding of it was always that the main reason he'd hunted her all those years was because her betrayal ultimately led to his son's death. But you never know with the Gargoyles universe. It's not unlike Greg to introduce another flashback scene where it will be revealed that they had another run-in after 1057, where something happened that made him hunt her all those years.

But anyway, whatever the reason was, I have a hard time viewing them ever being together romantically after spending a thousand years trying to kill each other. No disrespect if that's your view of the Gargoyles Universe, but I personally have a hard time seeing that as plausible.

One comment I will make, though, is that from a literary standpoint, I think it's unlike Greg to make them end up together. He has set her up as Lady Macbeth, and he's also given them this curse that links them for life, so that one can only die if the other dies. To make them soul mates would, in my opinion, just be too much of the fairy tale ending that we never get in Gargoyles. What makes Gargoyles Gargoyles is that it's tragic, not fairy tale. I have a hard time seeing Greg ever get them together like that.

But again, this is just my take. Nothing wrong with it if you view it differently.
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Wed, Aug 1, 2012 4:46:45 pm EDT from 130.156.8.155

Adam> We're not even sure he ever really considered it. It's possible he was trying to teach Luach a lesson about considering all ideas before deciding, and that he never actually considered betraying the gargoyles as an option.
Supermorff
posted @ Wed, Aug 1, 2012 3:14:29 pm EDT from 81.159.63.187

ARLO> Except that Demona had nothing to do with Luach's death. Canmore killed him. But, like I said, we're about two hundred years away from the earliest this could possibly happen. A lot can change.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
posted @ Wed, Aug 1, 2012 3:07:46 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

I could see Macbeth and Demona together, but only after they sit down and have a heart to heart. Macbeth would have to admit his mistake in considering Bodhe's idea of turning on the gargoyles, which for him, I think would be easy. Demona, on the other hand, probably has more explaining to do but would not yet admit her mistakes.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Wed, Aug 1, 2012 2:36:57 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

Ah, thanks to Chip for checking too. I was typing out my answer to Greg B. when you responded.
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Wed, Aug 1, 2012 2:12:33 pm EDT from 173.54.75.76

Greg B.> Thanks. Guess I'll have to order a replacement for my Season 1 set.

I was more responding to whether she had feelings for him during "City of Stone" flashbacks when I mentioned mating for life. My view is that she was always hoping to be with Goliath again for those thousand years, but when she finally got it in "Awakening," she'd changed too much, and he hadn't learned the lesson to hate humans that she was hoping he'd learned. So after that, she responds in her unhealthy way (trying to kill him, trying to enslave his mind, etc.) and eventually begins to move on somewhat by being with Thailog.

As for whether they'll ever get together, I just can't see that happening. It's true that Weisman has said they both have two more great loves, and it's also true that he's set up Demona as Lady Macbeth. But I just can't see how anything could happen between them after the thousand years they've spent hating each other. Remember that Lulach(sp) died partly because of Demona's betrayal, and that's a big part of the reason Macbeth's spent the millenium hunting her. It's like would you ever date someone who killed your son? And she hates him in equal measure for her own reasons. I just see it as a line that neither of them would ever cross.
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Wed, Aug 1, 2012 2:11:54 pm EDT from 173.54.75.76

Arlo> I think that's just your copy. My DVDs are fine. Both of those lines are in there.
Chip - [Sir_Griff723@yahoo.com]
The premise of your question is flawed. You were never human. But you WERE heroes.~~Red Tornado
posted @ Wed, Aug 1, 2012 2:07:14 pm EDT from 24.217.38.192

ARLO> Just checked mine. The lines are there.

As for Demona. Weisman did say she would have two more great loves. It's in ASK GREG. And yeah, gargoyles mate for life... in theory. But I think Goliath and Demona prove that there are exceptions to every rule as far as this goes. Especially Goliath who is now with Elisa.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
posted @ Wed, Aug 1, 2012 1:41:48 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

Side question: I know we all know about the Season 2 DVD having the wrong ending of "Vows" but lately I've been noticing some errors on the Season 1 DVD as well. I don't hear Matt saying "Yo, partner!" in "The Edge" when Elisa is about to get into her car (right before she says "Look Matt no offence, but right now is one time when I really don't want a partner," or something to that effect). And I also don't hear Broadway saying "Put him down, ugly, and I mean now!" in "Reawakening" when he throws the hubcap at Coldstone to get him to drop Goliath. Has anyone else noticed this, or do I just have a defective DVD?

Re Macbeth and Demona: I find it hard to believe she would feel anything for him. Let's not forget that gargoyles mate for life, and at that point she still hadn't fallen as far as she had by the time of "Awakening." And even then, she was still pining for Goliath, albeit in a deranged way. And also, I think she hated humans too much by the time she met Macbeth. Look at how she scarred young Gillecomgain JUST because he was a human, and also look at how quick she was to believe Macbeth would betray her in "City of Stone, Part 4." I just can't see her ever having feelings for a human in that way. Plus, she already knew he was married and had a family before they even made their pact. (Remember him saying "Anything to save my family" right before making it.) I think it would have been too many lines to cross for her.
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:19:17 pm EDT from 173.54.75.76

Adam> I got that impression about Demona/Macbeth too. It seemed to me that Demona liked the strong, noble, in-charge type of male... this sort of person seem to bring out the best in her as well. It might be that because Goliath and Macbeth shared those traits that she could have developed a little secret crush... of course, it's hard to tell. :)
Shaiya
posted @ Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:47:28 am EDT from 71.181.50.252

I wonder if some of Demona's feelings for Macbeth back when he was king transfered from Goliath. She sees in him what Goliath always had believed that humans and gargoyles can live in prosperity side by side, and has a little crush on him.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Tue, Jul 31, 2012 10:08:04 pm EDT from 24.118.35.68

I'm interested in seeing your opinions, because I don't really see Macbeth as much of a villain at all. IIRC the last really villainous thing he does of his own free will is Lighthouse in the Sea of Time, his second episode. After that, while he sometimes comes up in an adversarial role he doesn't really do anything morally repugnant.
J29
"Love makes you do the wacky."
posted @ Tue, Jul 31, 2012 10:01:41 pm EDT from 184.12.144.88

@GregXB - what I meant is that he has a temper and a ruthless streak, "good guy" or not. I think post-comic we can safety consider him over the 50% mark, at least where the clan is concerned. Unless D shows up, and then all bets are off, I'm guessing.

@Todd - http://skepticon.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/knapp01.png
FTBM2010
posted @ Tue, Jul 31, 2012 9:11:10 pm EDT from 173.45.124.219

Just don't anyone suggest to Demona that she might someday be romantically involved with a human. I think that's a surefire way of getting your throat torn out or your head blown off with a laser cannon.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Tue, Jul 31, 2012 8:59:16 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

"And Macbeth's not a 100% "good guy""

Not sure if this is possible to quantify, but if we are trying... he's barely 50% a good guy, at least before the comic.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
posted @ Tue, Jul 31, 2012 8:57:00 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

@GregXB - thaaaat's the clip I was talking about.

@J29 - Personality-wise, I think they are well-suited to each other. It's a telling contrast between Goliath and Macbeth, that Goliath named her Angel, and Macbeth went for "Demona" - right from the start he had a better handle of who she is, and even more, admired her for it. I think probably for some of the same qualities G wouldn't have liked so much.
And Macbeth's not a 100% "good guy", less so than G, and I think D probably prefers that. And he's a romantic, and for all of her "sentimental fool" talk, D is hilariously a sucker for that kind of thing.
So by nature I agree they balance each other well, much as G&E do. It's the circumstance that's hard to overcome.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see if we're right.
FTBM2010
posted @ Tue, Jul 31, 2012 8:55:30 pm EDT from 173.45.124.219

At least if those two were a couple, you wouldn't have to worry about one outliving the other.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Tue, Jul 31, 2012 8:40:14 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

FTBM2010> A lot can change in 1,200 years. Mac is no saint either, and well, we'll see. Extraordinary situations in extraordinary times. And 2198 will be extraordinary times.

And, of course...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-IPwlO0-Ms
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
posted @ Tue, Jul 31, 2012 8:21:33 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

I actually agree with GreB here. They were very close and partners of a kind during the 20 years of Macbeth's reign, and Greg has said something, though I forget whether it was here or on the DVD commentaries, about how Demona was in some ways a "Lady Macbeth" as much as Gruoch.

She certainly knew his tastes well enough to make "Dominique" appeal to him. One has to wonder how much of that was an act VS how much they actually do have in common and esteem about each other.

I actually like the idea of them as an eventual couple in theory (assuming a redeemed or at least working on redemption Demona of course) partly because their personalities balance each other out. Demona is impulsive and passionate, prone to lashing out, and not afraid to fight dirty/betray. Macbeth is thoughtful-even overly so, honorable even to his disadvantage, and internalizes guilt and regret like nobody's business.

YMMV obviously
J29
"Love makes you do the wacky."
posted @ Tue, Jul 31, 2012 8:19:58 pm EDT from 184.12.144.88

It's kind of neat to see the Demona-Macbeth theory being talked about here because it was something that only occurred to me after listening to some of the COS commentary - between that and some of GregW's replies in the archives. But then I went back and rewatched the series and was suddenly seeing foreshadowing everywhere....My only thing though, is even post-2198, even if she was remorseful and etc, I still can't wrap my head around what would inspire Macbeth to truly forgive her, much less love her (attraction, sure - he basically already has that whether he likes it or not, but he doesn't strike me as the type to let that be the decider for him). Ironically I think D would be more likely to fall for him than vise-versa. Grouch killed herself over what happened; that alone, not to mention the death of his son and the destruction of his kingdom, seems insurmountable to me.
Desperate loneliness, perhaps....
FTBM2010
posted @ Tue, Jul 31, 2012 7:57:46 pm EDT from 173.45.124.219

Well, Greg has said two more Great Loves. I suspect the next one will be in "Gargoyles" and the one after in "Gargoyles: 2198."

If Demona and Macbeth do get together, of course it will be after a ton of growth for the both of them. But Demona's entire damn character arc in "Gargoyles 2198" is about that kind of growth. We know a bit less about Macbeth in that period, but that'll come eventually.

But she has been built up as Lady Macbeth, it's practically in her character DNA at this point. That and Greg said that on his entire timeline, past and future, there is one other gargoyle/human pairing besides Goliath and Elisa. For thematic reasons alone, Demona makes the most sense here.

If it feels obvious, it's because it makes sense.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
posted @ Tue, Jul 31, 2012 7:00:11 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

I must say I like the idea of Macbeth and Demona being a couple - although I have no real opinion about that. If it ever happens, it will be very difficult and in a far future.
In fanart I prefer seeing "Demona+Macbeth" a lot over "Brooklyn+random ugly Sue".
Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!
posted @ Tue, Jul 31, 2012 6:54:14 pm EDT from 80.187.97.38

Yeah, even if Demona ever redeems herself, I still have trouble seeing her with Macbeth. For one thing, it seems too obvious. I'm not saying it is impossible, but both Demona AND Macbeth would have to come a long way to get to that point.

Of course, we all have to wonder who else it might be. Maybe Zafiro...? Still doesn't seem like her type. Nokkar. Bizarre. Pre-Katana Timedancing Brooklyn? Very unlikely.

I wonder if it is someone we have not met yet.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"I was so totally wrong..." -Lexington, "Thrill Of The Hunt"
posted @ Tue, Jul 31, 2012 6:47:31 pm EDT from 99.92.109.252

I've always been a sceptic about Macbeth and Demona becoming a couple for real, but they both might indeed have changed enough after 2198 for that to work. We don't know what Macbeth's like by then, though Greg's description of "Gargoyles 2198" suggests that Demona's still filled with vengeful hatred for humans (which indicates that she most likely hasn't admitted her own partial responsibility for the Wyvern Massacre and is still taking the easy way out of blaming the humans).

I've probably said this before, but if Demona ever does get together with Macbeth for real, she'll probably be making it all too easy for her enemies to find an appropriate nickname for her. :)
Todd Jensen
I'm a Hufflepuff!
posted @ Tue, Jul 31, 2012 6:34:41 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

<<Other than Goliath and Thailog, can't imagine anyone who would be a good match for Demona.>>

Macbeth. At least post-2198
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
posted @ Tue, Jul 31, 2012 6:22:31 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

Guys, thanks for the feedback.

Matt- Other than Goliath and Thailog, can't imagine anyone who would be a good match for Demona. I would not want to meet that individual.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Tue, Jul 31, 2012 5:33:36 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

"More's the pity."
Anthony Tini
posted @ Tue, Jul 31, 2012 4:16:08 pm EDT from 159.240.11.159

Yes, I think that was the end of any hope Demona had for it working out. But I think the love was gone long before and replaced by bitterness. If Goliath had awoken in a human-hating mood, maybe it all could've been rekindled, but I think that moment in the airship (not to mention Goliath's susequent visit with Elisa) ended any hope that the relationship could've been salvaged. Of course, for Goliath, that wouldn't happen until Vows.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"I was so totally wrong..." -Lexington, "Thrill Of The Hunt"
posted @ Tue, Jul 31, 2012 3:45:44 pm EDT from 99.92.109.252

MATT> I tend to think it was over for Demona when she and Goliath had that confrontation after the airship went down, but before he went off to see Elisa.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
posted @ Tue, Jul 31, 2012 2:48:42 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

And I don't think their relationship fell apart right there in Awakening Part Five. I think, for Demona, it had fallen apart centuries earlier.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"I was so totally wrong..." -Lexington, "Thrill Of The Hunt"
posted @ Tue, Jul 31, 2012 1:31:27 pm EDT from 99.92.109.252

If Demona did go along to Rome with Macbeth, it would've been very interesting to have her meet the Pope. What did he (and the Church) make of DEMONa? What did she make of him. I imagine that if it was a pleasant visit, that the Churches actions over the next few centuries only served to show Demona how duplicitous and treacherous humans could be.

As for Demona's love for Goliath, I think she held on to it for a long time. Decades certainly, probably centuries. But as time drew on and she came to hate humanity more and deflect her own guilt more, I think she would've grown increasingly bitter with Goliath. By the time the Clan woke up in 1994, I think her love for him was gone. That isn't to say that she ever had another mate over the centuries (she didn't), nor is it to say that she wouldn't have greatly desired to rekindle her love to Goliath, but her love as it existed was no longer unconditional in my mind... assuming it ever was. She was very angry with Goliath and went about using him. If he had woken up and been vehehently anti-human, I think they might've gotten together again, but Demona had gone so far down that road that even if that was Goliath's nature, it would've been hard for him to catch up... and ultimately Demona's hatred of humans and self-denial was stronger than any remaining love she had for Goliath or loyalty she had to him and the Clan.

In short, when Second was alive I think she was still Goliath's mate, but by the time Goliath woke up I think she had emotionally moved on.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"I was so totally wrong..." -Lexington, "Thrill Of The Hunt"
posted @ Tue, Jul 31, 2012 1:28:44 pm EDT from 99.92.109.252

Uh, yes xD
Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!
posted @ Tue, Jul 31, 2012 12:49:10 pm EDT from 80.187.103.131

"The Wyvern Cell"

You mean the Lunfannan Cell.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
posted @ Tue, Jul 31, 2012 12:37:48 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

Wow, my favourite topic this week :D

It's hard to answer any of these questions more detailed. But I'll do it from my viewpoint (although I'll try to stay on a comprehensible level here).

1. He had, but it was mixed with feelings of guilt and anger. Also she was not someone who made it easy to love her. Their relationship was extremely aggressive and ... yes, showed no real love. Anything else was impossile for both for several reasons: they were totally different, and both had lost their real mates.
This is my feeling, and I'm afraid I may be unable to discuss about it.

2. Yes, he was, and he still fought. (This is mentioned in his GargWiki article too)

3. Not much, but a bit.

The Wyvern Cell wasn't the only cell of this clan, but it was the cell Demona spent by far the most time with and had the best connection to.
Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!
posted @ Tue, Jul 31, 2012 8:04:25 am EDT from 80.187.102.85

I was going to respond to this but Matt pretty much covered it (for me at least), so I'll just take the last part - #3 - someone (I forget who) asked about Macbeth's historical trip to Rome (and if D accompanied him) and GregW responded "story for another day". If D stayed behind, I'm sure shenanigans ensued. Which would make for a fun story.
But if D accompanied him, I find it hard to believe that she did not do so with the intent of picking up "stragglers" on the way. I would also venture that during their golden age, there might have been other stragglers that would have been emboldened to join up, and D (w/ obvious reasons and esp. if there were females to welcome, for apparently her clan was majority male) would have brought them in quickly. Any that were left, anyways.

It is a bit sad, in a way, to think that she remained "faithful" (in the garg way) to G all those centuries, only to try to blow him away, not in the fun way, when she woke him up. Although it helps to explain Thailog, since otherwise she "does not give of herself lightly".

I for one though would also love to know more about her wider clan, and the time they lived in, and how easily they were covered up in history after everything. (A side note, in some histories, Macbeth is know as the "red-haired" king - in purely garg myth we know he started out as a brunette before going grey, so for me it lend a bit of interest)
Scotland is gorgeous country, I've been once and am sad I wasn't aware at the time of the garg angle (or cognizant of it rather, I'd seen the series by then) to enjoy it on that level. You feel like sharing pics/ more impressions here?
FTBM2010
posted @ Tue, Jul 31, 2012 1:42:09 am EDT from 74.115.160.191

Hey Adam. Great questions. I have a feeling some of this could be found or inferred on the GargWiki, but just to be clear:

With the information we know now through the comics, it appears that Demona's Clan existed in cells as far back as 997 at least and continued this way through 1057. So the gargoyles we see her with regularly in "City Of Stone" are only the Wyvern Cell of her Clan. Presumably several other cells existed at this time and those were the gargoyles we saw in "City of Stone Part 4". So, yes, we just saw the Wyvern Cell, there were others.

1. I think the Greg has changed his mind on Second since the time he addressed that question... or rather made up his mind. For starters, Second is a generation older than Demona and while intergenerational mating isn't unheard of (see Yama/Sora), it wasn't exactly common. More important is the fact that both Second and Demona had lost their mates (Sacrifice and Goliath). Gargoyles mate for life and do not expect to take up a new one if they lose theirs. I'm not saying that Second didn't perhaps find Demona attractive or whatever, but I don't think he had feelings for her... and not just for the reasons I described. They don't seem like a good match. And I suspect the cultural norms will generally deter gargoyles that have lost their mates to pair up simply to produce one more egg.

2. Good question. Hadn't thought of that. I'd guess that Demona had passed the responsibility on to a younger member in the later years. Of course, as with Second, I'm sure she didn't give him/her much authority and given her magical pact with Macbeth I doubt they expected to ever take the helm.

3. The times between 1040 and 1057 were times of peace for Demona's Clan. The Hunter was absent, the humans were allies and they no longer had to struggle for survival. That said, I doubt the clan grew much, if at all during this period. Obviously, they would've had some deaths due to old age if nothing else and there were no hatchings during this time (though there may have been some eggs due to hatch in 1058). So the only source of new members would've been rogue gargoyles that joined up and I would think that most of these rogues would've joined up with Demona's Clan or the Loch Ness Clan before this time. Even if a significant group of rogues did join during this time of peace, I find it unlikely that there were more additions than deaths. And with no eggs hatching I suspect the Clan might've actually decreased in number despite the peaceful situation.

I hope these answers help.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"I was so totally wrong..." -Lexington, "Thrill Of The Hunt"
posted @ Mon, Jul 30, 2012 10:03:15 pm EDT from 99.92.109.252

So I was in the UK last month. I had a great trip and am starting to put pictures on my facebook page. I went to a lot of places that have to go with Gargoyles or could. I went to Stonehenge, Edinburgh, Loch Ness, Stirling, the Eilean Donan Castle, and the Isle of Skye. I was even in Moray. If anyone wants to see pictures, I can give you my facebook page. I wanted to get a picture of the Stone of Destiny page in CB2 with the real Stone of Destiny, but I could not as no pictures where allowed to be taken.

So I wanted to ask a question about Demona's clan just to clear things up for me. When we first see her clan in CoS, it appears that the gargoyles seen are the only ones in the clan until CoS part four, when serveral more are shown. In CB2, Demona's clan his somewhat large and divided into cells. So the clan, even in CoS, had been made up of multiple celss and we only saw her cell in those episodes and there where other cells as well?

And a couple of questions about the clan that I would like to post to Greg but will run them through here first.
1. I read a question in the archives that asked in Second had any romantic feelings for Demona and Greg said that if he did, it did not last. My question is where Seconds feelings actually romantic or more of a desire to mate with her to produce offspring for the clan?
2. Was Second still second of the clan in 1057? By my math, he would be almost 140/70 years old, older than Hudson was when he gave up leadership to Goliath.
3. Did the clan grow much between 1040 and 1057?

Sorry about all the question about this clan over the years, but it is one of my favorite clans as it lives during one of my favorite time periods to read about.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Mon, Jul 30, 2012 9:05:35 pm EDT from 24.118.35.68

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