Ian> I'm going to go with everybody else and say that Goliath's sense of ethics provoked his reaction: to kill in the heat of battle is one thing, but cold-blooded, deliberate murder is unconscionable.

Essentially it is the Batman Question, with the same answer: killing the villain would end the story, and audiences also tend to get squeamish about heroes (true heroes, not just lead characters) who would jump to death as the easy solution. There's something too mercenary about that for audiences, so writers have to come up with a philosophical reasoning.

And also to impart morals to the young audience, hopefully in a better way.

Macbeth is "better" than Demona, but he has still been corrupted by the search for vengeance, sometimes because Demona's vendettas and fears have had consequences for him as well. Both Demona and Macbeth are at fault, and not meant to be cheered on. Goliath is the one who sticks with the lesson that the series is trying to teach, and so he is the one to be rooted for.
Pterobat - [incisivis@gmail.com]
posted @ Sun, Nov 18, 2012 10:40:24 pm EST from 174.3.224.115

@Wingless: Er, you do mean "Eye of Odin" right? The Gate was on the Archmage's chest. (Whereupon his defeat he was then dissipated and then absorbed by it - something that still should be touched upon.) Yeah, I'm a stickler, ain't I?
Anonymous
posted @ Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:51:56 pm EST from 173.51.67.203

WINGLESS> Goliath was totally going to kill "Macbeth" in "The Price" when he thought Hudson had been killed. That falls in line with gargoyle justice, though.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
posted @ Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:35:37 pm EST from 24.185.74.60

Goliath & the Archmage: I don't think Goliath had any idea-at least on Avalon that removing the Phoenix gate from his brow would have caused his death. I think it was more of a case of disarming him enough to get him under control. It was the Grimorum that killed him in the end. Similar with the MacBeth robot. Goliath didn't aim for him with the piece of antenna, it was for the vehicle-which ended up crashing. Both were unforeseen consequences of Goliath's actions. There's no question Goliath still has a struggle at times for revenge, but he's always been pulled back before making the fatal mistake himself.
Wingless
posted @ Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:27:22 pm EST from 99.246.18.21

Ian: Adding onto what Algernon said about the difference between killing a defenseless foe and killing in the heat of battle, I suspect another reason Goliath didn't shed any tears is because the Archmage had been trying to murder his clan's children.

I myself don't have any kids, but I can't imagine most people who do have them getting too choked up about killing someone in their defense.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"You cannot lead these men unless you are prepared to do what is necessary to defeat evil." -"Raysh" Al'Ghul ("Batman Begins")
posted @ Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:44:25 pm EST from 70.126.128.76

Algernon - the "heat of the battle" is an important point, and a distinction the series that was made from the beginning - in Awakenings when Demona is about to drop the unconscious air fortress guy out the trap door, Goliath stops her with those same words. Also, Macbeth made it clear in his first episode "I'll not stoop so low as to attack you while you sleep" and later in ...forget the name - he refuses to dispatch Elisa after knocking her out. Demona obviously has no such qualms as most of the rest of the cast, but then that's why she's one of the "bad guys". Goliath stopped Macbeth from taking THAT step when he saved Demona, who was for all intents helpless at that moment, (but I do wonder if Macbeth has always maintained his code of honor in that respect throughout his long life - probably but it would be interesting to see if there were ever exceptions aside from that near-one) but also, I think it could be argued that the Archmage was a lost cause, and (potentially) Demona is not. Goliath's complicated feelings towards Demona may have played as strong a role in his speaking out as the Weird Sister's words to him just a moment before.
FTBM
posted @ Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:40:40 pm EST from 74.115.160.161

IAN> I think context plays an important role, Goliath killing a powerful and dangerous foe in the "heat of battle" is one thing, impaling an unconscious foe on a metal spike is quite another.

There's also another dimension to Goliath's "death is never the answer" speech. Macbeth isn't just trying to kill Demona, he's trying to end his own life as well. Goliath probably didn't realize it at the time but he was essentially talking Macbeth down from the ledge.
Algernon
posted @ Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:13:21 pm EST from 212.129.85.66

I've heard a rumor that the YOung justice comics are ending after the february issue. This is weird, but even if it happens, at least we'll have the insight as to what happened during the gap, anyone have any ideas, I did find an uncertian story about it online

[SPOILER] http://www.newsarama.com/comics/young-justice-comic-canceled-tv-show-implications.html [/SPOILER]
Reiena Grayson - [reienagrayson@comcast.net]
Don't mess with me or you will get burned.
posted @ Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:17:47 am EST from 71.59.60.24

Andrew: "Young Justice" is coming back to air the final 10 episodes of Season 2 in January 2013.

And no, none of us have any clue why DC Nation was put on yet another hiatus.

There's nothing we can do about it now but wait.
Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"You're just like crosstown traffic, so hard to get through to you..." - Jimi Hendrix
posted @ Sun, Nov 18, 2012 1:59:43 am EST from 134.173.88.59

Is there gonna be episode 11 in season 2 of young justice? I'm really concerned that the show will be cancelled, i mean episode 10 of season 2 was released in the middle of October, how come episode 11 haven't been released yet???
Andrew Fabian Zein - [thefebianandrew@gmail.com]
Andrew
posted @ Sun, Nov 18, 2012 1:33:45 am EST from 125.167.2.63

<<The show itself expects us to root for Macbeth in the flashbacks as he does everything the Sisters call him out for in the present day. So the question is...do y'all think the show is actually making its "vengeance begets only more vengeance" argument in good faith?>>

This is what we call "black and grey" morality. I don't think the show expects us to root for Macbeth so much as the show is telling us how he became the Macbeth of the present. Gillecomgain and Duncan were obviously worse. Canmore had a legitimate beef and the show never claimed otherwise, but he still was a terrible enough person to massacre an entire clan of gargoyles who had just allied with him. Time and terrible things took their toll, and in the end, in the present, he learned from them. Notice that the next two times we saw him, he was trying to find a new reason to live... either by finding love or becoming the new Once and Future King. This was a man who hit rock bottom and was beginning to start picking up the pieces of his life.

"Take care, do not become what you fight against." In a way, both Demona and Macbeth did exactly that. Goliath didn't, Macbeth learned from the experience to walk away from that, and Demona... well, we all know.

So yeah, I think the show makes it's argument in good faith.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2012 2:12:17 pm EST from 24.185.74.60

I don't think the show's message neccesarily gets that specific. I mean, the main themes are trust and family and responsibility, of course, but there are also the messages that go beyond that. Killing people = Bad, of course, but this is Gargoyles. Our lead heroes have killed people, Elisa carries a gun, etc. If anything the show's message is that things are rarely black or white. And that goes for the characters too.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Thats three down and two to go..." -Sevarius, "The Reckoning"
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2012 11:07:41 am EST from 99.92.109.252

To be clear, I don't have a problem with Goliath's actions regarding the Archmage--he was by far the more powerful combatant and there was no alternate way to handle him, so I don't think inadvertently killing him is something he should feel guilty about. I don´t even have a problem with him making absolutist statements like "death never solves anything" and be unaware of when his actions disprove his point; he's a character, and as such is allowed to have inconsistencies and blind spots in his thinking. I'm talking about the show Gargoyles itself and what it believes.
DoKnowButchie (or Ian, or whatever it is I use here)
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:34:21 am EST from 66.50.121.113

This might help you understand Goliath's actions with the Archmage:

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=16995
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Thats three down and two to go..." -Sevarius, "The Reckoning"
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2012 5:28:15 am EST from 99.92.109.252

There doesn't appear to be much going on, so let me ask a question I posed in my review for "City of Stone" Part Four (Plug!: http://nymonsters.wordpress.com/2012/11/01/revenge-city-of-stone-part-four/) :

Okay, so it's pretty clear that the Weird Sisters' attempts to stop Macbeth from killing Demona have almost nothing to do with morality and almost everything to do with keeping their investment alive for the Archmage's endgame. Goliath, while seemingly earnest about all life being precious, later doesn't appear to have any remorse for sort-of-accidentally ending the Archmage's life later in the series. The show itself expects us to root for Macbeth in the flashbacks as he does everything the Sisters call him out for in the present day. So the question is...do y'all think the show is actually making its "vengeance begets only more vengeance" argument in good faith?
DoKnowButchie (or Ian, or whatever it is I use here)
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2012 3:27:47 am EST from 66.50.74.48

This is a Comment Room, no questions neccesary, so your thoughts are perfectly acceptable here. And I know most or all of us agree with you and I'm sure Greg and the rest of the creative staff and all involved will appreciate your words.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Thats three down and two to go..." -Sevarius, "The Reckoning"
posted @ Fri, Nov 16, 2012 12:16:08 pm EST from 99.92.109.252

This is not a Question, so it probably doesn't fit on this page, but I thought I'd post it anyway.

As a kid, I adored Gargoyles- not only was it a bonding thing I shared with my older sister, but it fed into so many of other interests- history, magic, sci fi, Shakespeare, mythology.

Just recently, I found the videos on Disney's site, and had hesitated watching them- what if they hadn't aged well? Would it retrospectively warp my fondest childhood memories? I had feared for nothing, because I found it even better than I remembered. The characters are rich and defy the mold. It's appropriate for kids without pandering. The world is built so wonderfully it doesn't just fuel the imagination, it supercharges it. (It also has some amazing character designs and voice acting, but that's for ANOTHER gushy note).

Stranger still, I noticed how much that the comic series my sister and I had been writing, Skeleton Crew, was inspired by Gargoyles. It's in no way a rip-off or a fanfic, but I can see how my sense of tone, character, and fusion of the otherworldly was shaped by Gargoyles. It was kind of a subconscious love-letter to the series.

So, as one rookie writer to a veteran, I just wanted to say thank you.

In the miniscule chance you're interested in seeing the comic, it's at
http://tangentartists.com/skeletoncrew.html
Dave Joria - [dave.joria@gmail.com]
Dave Joria
posted @ Thu, Nov 15, 2012 7:52:16 pm EST from 68.0.30.163

Nevermind, It's the same link we had before... but have they uploaded the rest of the missing episodes?
Battle Beast - [Canada]
I did it! I watched all 485 Best picture nominees in 365 days!
posted @ Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:29:05 pm EST from 137.186.192.203

TravTrav87> Wha tis the link or site for Gargoyles on You Tube? I don't want someones uploads, only the official Disney upload.

Thanks!
Battle Beast - [Canada]
I did it! I watched all 485 Best picture nominees in 365 days!
posted @ Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:20:20 pm EST from 137.186.192.203

@Brainiac Love those pictures of Fox. I was exploring other galleries and came across these that were pretty awesome and also pertain to this room.

http://elemental-photography.net/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=409&page=1
Anthony Tini - [anthonyotini@gmail.com]
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2012 1:39:31 pm EST from 159.240.11.93

VINCE> A TGC cel? GASP! You must take it to a clearing, surround it with holy water and burn it!

It's the only way to be sure.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2012 10:36:31 pm EST from 24.185.74.60

I meant "then". Oh, well.
Green Lantern's Nightlight
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2012 6:49:44 pm EST from 94.172.200.83

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=16883

If it's a SPOILER REQUEST than why bother even answering the last question?
Green Lantern's Nightlight
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2012 6:48:58 pm EST from 94.172.200.83

Wingless> Thanks! Though the context isn't as striking as the image alone was.
Vince
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2012 4:13:51 pm EST from 76.28.145.245

Vincent Faust: Re cels. They're From The Goliath Chronicles episode "Seeing Isn't Believing - When Proteus has Goliath wrapped in the "Elastic Cords" he got from the sporting goods shop.
Wingless
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2012 3:52:58 pm EST from 99.246.18.21

Chip> Couldn't be, Goliath was with Elisa's grandmother. I checked the whole episode too, to be sure.
Vince
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2012 3:29:57 pm EST from 76.28.145.245

Chip> Christopher Jones hasn't taken it down, he's just changed the url. It still says final issue. It also says final issue in DC's solicitation: http://www.dccomics.com/blog/2012/11/12/beyond-dc-comics-the-new-52-group-solicits

There's some theorising that it might be rebranded as Young Justice: Invasion, but that seems kinda unlikely since they've been using the Season 2 timeline and team members for several issues now.

Also, in Greg's latest update (on September 18) he only updated us as far as issue 25: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=974
That might not mean anything, though, since on October 9, Greg said that he hadn't started writing 26 but had several ideas to choose from: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=16338
Supermorff
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2012 3:24:54 pm EST from 86.135.7.163

Comet> I was thinking so too, I haven't watched that season. I found the painted version of the penciled one, I thought Elisa's jacket would help me determine if it was that season, still can't tell because of the lighting.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Disney-TV-Gargoyles-Cell-Hand-Painted-Animation-Art-Production-Cel-Prop-18-Rare-/360499420391?_trksid=p5197
Vince
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2012 3:20:06 pm EST from 76.28.145.245

Brainiac> Sorry...I didn't check, I figured I'd missed the countdown.

And yeah...Christopher Jones has taken down the blog posting stating that 25 is the last issue. Curious.

Vincent and Comet> Also, I'm pretty sure that that's Goliath wrapped in webbing from "Mark of the Panther".
Chip - [Sir_Griff723@yahoo.com]
The premise of your question is flawed. You were never human. But you WERE heroes.~~Red Tornado
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2012 3:17:04 pm EST from 24.217.38.192

Re; Young Justice comic> Are we sure that's the final issue of the series, or is it the final issue that Christopher Jones is working on?

Brainiac> That's awesome. Wish there was a better shot of the tattoo, though.
Supermorff
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2012 2:55:07 pm EST from 86.135.7.163

Vincent Faust> Strange. I also don't remember them. Maybe something from TGC :O
Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2012 2:40:11 pm EST from 80.187.110.150

Comet> Depths.
GLN> Satisfaction.
Supermorff> Darkest.
Chip> Before the Dawn.

I ran across some high-quality photos of a specific cosplayer from Youmacon. What do you folks think?

http://elemental-photography.net/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=463
http://elemental-photography.net/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=463&page=2
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2012 2:32:25 pm EST from 137.183.232.27

I just got these production cels in the mail. Could someone tell me what episode they are from? I don't seem to remember, which is an odd thing to me.

http://i47.tinypic.com/258owzr.jpg
Vincent Faust
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2012 2:13:41 pm EST from 76.28.145.245

I'm assuming everyone here has noticed that Disney uploaded the entire Gargoyles series to youtube in upscaled HD last month?
TravTrav87 - [TravisTylerBlack@yahoo.com]
- Travis
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2012 2:12:20 pm EST from 198.72.136.215

Oh well 12th and away we go on with the show finally!
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2012 1:45:41 pm EST from 108.198.138.69

(9th)Ninth!!!!!!!!!
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2012 1:42:57 pm EST from 108.198.138.69

The link you provided didn't work, but here's another one: http://blog.christopherjonesart.com/coming-in-february-young-justice-25/
Antiyonder
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2012 1:24:34 pm EST from 50.106.9.205

Supermorff-- Source: http://blog.christopherjonesart.com/coming-in-february-young-justice-25-final-issue/
Chip - [Sir_Griff723@yahoo.com]
The premise of your question is flawed. You were never human. But you WERE heroes.~~Red Tornado
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2012 1:15:30 pm EST from 24.217.38.192

GLN> I hadn't heard that. Source?
Supermorff
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2012 11:59:47 am EST from 62.25.109.195

First the show gets pushed back then the comic gets cancelled. I thought Greg. W would have something to say at least about the comic, but no. I guess there's little to say when the fans already say enough as it is? Maybe there's hope if he hasn't said anything about it?
Green Lantern's Nightlight
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2012 10:08:50 am EST from 94.172.200.83

Um.... I hope I'm not disrupting anything, but....
These stickers...
http://web.archive.org/web/20071027233852im_/http://avalon.gargoyles-fans.org/castle/item/sticker.jpg
Is it still possible to get them somewhere? I missed lots of cool stuff over the years and now it's so hard to get it. *sigh*
Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2012 4:28:28 pm EST from 80.187.103.170

Jurgan> That would be Beneath.

As for me, Bloodlines!
Ross
"Oh villain! Villain! Smiling cursed villain! That one might smile and smile, and be a villain! Gooo VILLAIN! Whooooo! Yeah!" -- Sally Avril
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2012 8:43:27 am EST from 147.226.192.44

I should really watch Young Justice. Well, whatever 5 is.
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2012 7:47:54 am EST from 75.76.235.156

and I seriously refreshed like three times to make sure, lol

Oh well, Salvage!
Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2012 12:13:02 am EST from 68.231.100.47

"Alienated!"

Side note -- really getting a kick out of today's Google Doodle to Auguste Rudin's 172nd birthday ;)
Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2012 12:11:55 am EST from 68.231.100.47

Alienated
Anthony Tini
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2012 12:11:49 am EST from 50.29.205.45

Earthlings!
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2012 12:00:42 am EST from 174.101.230.22

Well, since we haven't done this one before and "Young Justice: Invasion" now has just enough to cover the spread...

Happy New Year!
Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"You're just like crosstown traffic, so hard to get through to you..." - Jimi Hendrix
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2012 12:00:05 am EST from 134.173.88.59