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Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending December 16, 2012

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When I first watched TGC I had no idea the show had been taken under new management, but I still remember my huge WTF reaction to Fox's behavior in that ep.
FTBM2010

Greg> I cannot believe that's reason #2,727,239,572. More like reason #6. It was the FIRST thing that was pounced upon in that episode.
Chip - [Sir_Griff723@yahoo.com]
I am Bad. And that's good. I will never be Good. And that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be, than me~~Bad Guy Affirmation

Greg B> LOL!
SomeGeek
http://www.squidoo.com/thegeeklens-cartoons

Never watched TGC except for "the Journey" but: lol.
Do you have more of this?

Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!

I think I'll drop this off here...

http://24.media.tumblr.com/80a9307154082d5783401f014e89f236/tumblr_mf4s8dMTDV1rhuguao1_1280.jpg

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
"For every two dozen Phantom Menaces, there is a Return of the King. For every two-bit Shyamalan, a Stanley Kubrick is born. For every poor soul who groans during an Adam Sandler-funded Rob Schneider vehicle, there is a child crying life-affirming tears when Bambi's mom is shot. Somewhere out there, a film student is finding out what Rosebud means for the first time. A man is pausing as Fredo prays the Hail Mary on a boat over Lake Tahoe. A woman grasps her heart as Bogie's love flies off into the foggy night. All it takes is one moment to change a person. And that one moment... no matter how fleeting... is worth a thousand Transformers."

Oh, if you are talking about THAT America...
Anyway, I'm also a very convinced therapsid-garg believer.

I don't think they come from Atlantis because Atlantis was probably first inhabited, if not built, by humans and is therefore a pretty young land/city/whatever. At least at the time when that land was called Atlantis! But of course if you see Atlantis like America here this would be a different question and from THAT point I'm totally not sure. I'm just sure that Gargoyles didn't originate in that place when it was already "that" Atlantis. (I hope that was an understandable paragraph, lol)

And to be honest, I think "furry"/"animalistic" Gargoyles are a more eastern or even Asian type. The Xanadu Clan supports this since they are described to resemble eastern dragons, and eastern dragons are far more furry and animalistic than western dragons. The lion-like appearance of the beasts (Fu-Dog) also supports this. Which doesn't exclude the possibility of the New Olympian Clan being related to these.

And I totally overlooked that at first:
"You could be right, though I think the angle of the foot and the wrinkle that comes with bending the toes that way is more probable."
It is not just in that screenshot, also in others, I just used this one because it shows the difference between the two foot types.

Did I forget something? Well, it's late here, so sorry for any mistakes in my post ^^

Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!

The bit about the Loch Ness Clan comes from the full Gargoyles: 2198 document that Greg gave to Phil and I for winning the Gargoyles: 2198 contest. In it, Greg gives a brief description of the twelve clans. When describing the Loch Ness Clan he writes that they have dolphin-esque lower bodies and manta ray like wings.

And yes, I think the snake-like lower bodies probably emerged in the Mayan Clan's ancestors long ago and is a regional characteristic. Not unlike the Lexington-type wings are among the Wyvern Clan. With so much variability even within a single clan, some large differences between clans is expected and doesn't negate a close kinship. Among all the existing clans, I think the Wyvern Clan's closest genetic ties are to the Loch Ness Clan. For evidence of this, we can note that Kermit's wings are somewhat manta-like and there is that very aquatic looking gargoyle of the Avalon Clan. Beyond that, their closest relationship is likely the Mayan Clan. That doesn't mean they are closely related neccesarily, just that they are more closely related than they are to the London Clan. I think the furry/feathery gargoyles were the dominant form throughout Europe, and if my thoughts are correct, when we see the New Olympian Clan, they should reflect this and most closely resemble (and more closely relate to) the London Clan.

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Thats three down and two to go..." -Sevarius, "The Reckoning"

My prayers go out to the people of Connecticut and the friends and family of the victims of this tragedy.

Matt> I like your theory, particularly the idea of gargoyles crossing the Bering Land Bridge in the opposite direction that humans did (I'd always just assumed they came across from Asia around the same time as humans, but I like this possibility better). But where does Greg say that the Loch Ness clan have "dolphin-esque" lower bodies? I don't remember reading anything that confirmed what members of that clan looked like.

Going with the idea that the Wyvern and Mayan clans are closely related, it's also possible that the Mayan snake-body phenotype evolved after the split.

Ross
"Oh villain! Villain! Smiling cursed villain! That one might smile and smile, and be a villain! Gooo VILLAIN! Whooooo! Yeah!" -- Sally Avril

The North American continent, though very different in shape and size is actually quite old. It was a part of Pangaea and some parts of it, like the Canadian Sheild, are some of the oldest rocks on Earth. The continent, or at least parts of it, predate any Gargates. In fact parts of North America predate multicellular life. I suspect that Gargates, as a group, did first evolve from the mammal-like reptiles in the Permian and Triassic periods. Of all the gargate species that lived, only two are still around: gargoyles and beasts. I think that while these species are very old (the first of the Three Races), but they are not hundreds of millions of years old. More likely, they evolved a few million years ago from ancestral gargate species. Given the morphological distinctions I discussed earlier, I suspect they did first originate in the Americas or Atlantis (keeping mind that North America, South America and Atlantis (presumably) were all seperate landmasses when modern gargoyles first evolved).

I can't prove it, of course, but I wonder what makes you so sure that gargoyles didn't originate in the Americas or Atlantis.

As for the differences in the clans, one has to keep in mind that even two members from the same clan of the same gender hatched at the same time (Brooklyn and Lexington for example) are very different in outward appearance. So to compare clans, you must look at overall morphology. With this in mind, I'm led to see that, while full of their own regional differences, the Mayan and Wyvern clans are the most alike of all the clans we've seen. They are the only clans with both white and black hair, the only clans with Jade/Goliath-esque and Obsidiana/Brooklyn-esque wings and the only clans with some form of crests like Ophelia and Turquesa's. Neither clan has furry bodies (as in London) or the reduction of finger/toe numbers (as in Ishimura). Zafiro's wings are feathered, but they are distinct from anything we see in London and his lower body is utterly unique to the Mayan Clan. The only thing that sounds at all like that anywhere else is that the Loch Ness Clan has lower bodies that are "dolphin-esque". That only lends more evidence to my theory since the Loch Ness Clan and Wyvern Clans are closely related (note the aquatic looking guy on Avalon).

As for the Praying Gargoyle, all I can say is that human carved stone gargoyles around the world tend to resemble the living gargoyles that do/did live in the region. So the Atlantean gargoyles almost certainly resembled the Praying Gargoyle. Whether or not any gargoyles anywhere resemble what proto-gargoyles looked like is another question.

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Thats three down and two to go..." -Sevarius, "The Reckoning"

Hm.... why do you say they came from America? America wasn't existing when they evolved.... even Greg Weisman said they came from Pangaea. The American continent didn't exist until the Cretaceous and didn't start to form until the Jurassic.
They also didn't originate in Atlantis although I feel they have a strong connection to it, not because they came from there but because of the way they lived there.

Also, the Mayan Gargoyles may look a lot like those from Scotland, but many of them have snake-like bodies and probably also feathered wings like Zafiro although most of these died in the massacre. This body form isn't seen anywhere else so far.

I'm sure the form of the Praying Gargoyle is the "archetype" of the Gargoyles, though. Of course it can have many different add-ons and mutations like we have seen.

Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!

Interesting catch, Comet. You could be right, though I think the angle of the foot and the wrinkle that comes with bending the toes that way is more probable.

I like your idea that a foot like that could represent a medial form of the London Clan's hoofed feet. It probably does or did exist in the Gargoyles Universe at some point. Of course, I have a theory that the Wyvern Clan (and probably Loch Ness Clan too) are descended from gargoyles that emigrated to the British Isles from Atlantis while the London Clan's ancestors came West from mainland Europe, so the Wyvern Clan and London Clan are likely the most distantly related of all the clans, despite being among the closest geographically. The Wyvern Clan is more closely related, I believe, to the Mayan Clan. While the London Clan is more related to the New Olympian Clan. My hunch is that gargoyles originated in the Americas or possibly on Atlantis and spread from there. A North American origin would be ironic for various reasons both in and out of Universe, of course. From there, clans spread to Asia going the opposite direction that humans would later migrate and spread south and east to colonize the Americas and Atlantis. A few thousand years ago, possibly because of troubles in Atlantis, some gargoyles moved further to the British Isles.

This is all a guess, of course, but there is evidence to support it. Of all the clans we've seen, the Mayan Clan and Wyvern Clan are the most alike physically, with the Ishimura Clan a bit more distinct and the London Clan even more so. And the Praying Gargoyle, being an Atlantean construct, gives a clue to how gargoyles on Atlantis looked.

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Thats three down and two to go..." -Sevarius, "The Reckoning"

I got a lot of high quality screenshots today (thanks, D.Taina) and realized a new detail. Demona's Second seems to have slightly "distinct" claws in some scenes. I don't know if this is an error, but I find it interesting since it shows a possible stage between normal claws and the hoove-like structure on some members of the London Clan.

Example picture which shows Second's feet and Demona's feet.
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/6310/clawso.jpg

Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!

Wait... the queue is closed? That explains why it isn't growing like crazy, but did I miss the announcement? When is it due to reopen, when the hew episodes start up again?
Laura 'ad astra' Sack

oops- I meant to put that in the Ask Greg que
Laura 'ad astra' Sack

Tripping through alternate dimensions...
I had that exact same thought years ago!! Though in my case I went to re'borrow' a pair of my brother's boots for a costume and found a pair that resembled the boots I remembered in the way an actor cast to look like a real person looks to be the same type by different. Then my mom didn't remember that her grandmother was born during the Great Blizzard of 1888 on Purim...when she was the one who told me that. (Hey! Now Google tells me Purim was in February in 1888. Another change!)

But to take a souvenir back? Amazing.

Laura 'ad astra' Sack

I've sometimes thought about a possible connection between Xanatos and Odysseus/Ulysses; it helps that we know that Xanatos is of Greek descent.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders

I dreamt the comic will be continued near the middle of next year.
I even got some interesting details, but let's just hope it's true.

Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!

Todd> Well, the male pronoun was used in relation to Ariel during the play, even if only twice and only once in dialogue; the female pronoun wasn't used at all. I have no problem with people interpreting the character as female (especially in the Gargoyles universe, when Oberon's Children are shapeshifters), but in the play he's canonically male.

I saw a production of The Tempest at the RSC, with Patrick Stewart as a slightly senile Prospero, and Ariel was an incredibly severe man with angular features and wintery coloring, possibly more similar to Jack Frost. Very interesting interpretation: it seemed like Ariel was manipulating everything just to make Prospero free him at the end, at which point he laughed maniacally and vanished. Caliban, in contrast, was just lonely and ignorant and beaten down.

And while we're on interesting productions, I saw Troilus and Cressida at the same theatre, and Ulysses so much reminded me of Xanatos it was uncanny. He even had the same beard and ponytail, although he was wearing Macbeth's long coat.

Supermorff

When I read the question about Oberon's and Titania's children, my first thought was that Ariel was their daughter. When I thought about whO their son might be, I started thinking that maybe it is Robin Goodfellow. Maybe he and Puck, although similar, are two different fairies in the Garg Universe. However I'm probably completely wrong, and if it has been stated that they truly are one in same, please let me know.
Brack

Spike: My condolences. Was he the same Wraith from the Gargoyles Fan Fiction Archive? I loved his fics...
D. Taina
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..." -Shari

Algernon> If anyone ever needs "proof" of fluid gender amongst the Third Race, I would refer them to the lineage of Odin's horse.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

SPIKE> My condolences on the loss of your friend.

TODD> Given the nature of the Third Race, I've always imagined that gender is mostly a matter of personal preference for them. So Ariel's ambiguous sex seems rather fitting to me.

Algernon

Actually, Ariel's gender in "The Tempest" is uncertain; we don't know whether "he" or "she" is the correct term for the character.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders

I'm passing along some sad news for the Gargoyles fandom. Long-time fan and Station 8 chatter, Nathan Bryant aka Wraith died last February. I only just found out about through a mutual friend. (For more info, click the link.) Wraith was known for his dry wit, his great chatroom persona, and his love of Gargoyles. He went to the first convention in New York and was one of the people who persuaded me to go to the next one in '98. He was right... it changed my world.

I'm gonna miss him.

Spike

Even if the swap was after Oberon came to power, he might not have made the non-interference law yet.

I had a crazy thought about Oberon and Titania's son: Ariel from The Tempest. We have no reason to think it's the case (and probably several reasons to think it isn't), but it's another possibility. And it would provide a way to integrate the Tempest characters with the existing mythology of the show.

Supermorff

Comet> Personally, I like to think Banshee is the modern alias of the Morrigan; an old Irish war goddess who had a similar love/hate relationship with Cú Chulainn to Molly and Rory's. In which case, her parents were probably members of the Tuatha Dé Danann.
Algernon

Of course, Oberon's Law is full of loopholes (it certainly didn't stop Oberon from attempting to kidnap Alex, and putting everyone in Manhattan to sleep). Also, the swap between Morgana and Nimue might have been made before Oberon came to power, during Mab's reign. (There are hints that Mab was overthrown during or close to the Arthurian Age.)
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders

Phoenician & Supermorff> Yeah, as Xanatos pointed out 'Taking a child from it's parents is the epitome of interfering'.

Remember when Oberon first caught Titania, before the whole situation was revealed to him. His words were 'Titania, we discussed this, it is my will that we do not interfere in the lives of mortals, let the woman keep her child.' Or something to that effect. Too lazy to actually look it up.

Changelings are definitely a no-no in the current Avalonian Political State of Affairs.

Chip - [Sir_Griff723@yahoo.com]
"Well done, Frank Zhang," Leo said dryly... "That is exactly how people beat Chinese handcuffs. They turn into iguanas."

Supermorff -- perhaps its just a matter-of-fact conclusion that goes with Oberon's general "No Interference" law . . .

Some other Changeling-related finds after a quick (though by no means exhaustive) search:
http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=3008
http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=7360
http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=8955

Celebrity Hot Tub: I can just see some awesome moments of Sally Avril & Black Manta, lol

Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Did Oberon outlaw changelings? I don't remember that. Maybe he made that rule after Morgana/Nimue... maybe he made that rule because of Morgana/Nimue...
Supermorff

Count me in as another who believes Morgana is Oberon and Titania's daughter... and Merlin's half-sister. Oberon outlawed the practice of changelings though... Maybe they were trying to protect her from Mab at the time.

Green Knight as their son makes the statue of him outside Oberon's palace make a lot more sense.

Greg Bishansky

I had the idea once that Oberon and Titania's daughter could be Gloriana from "The Faerie Queene" (who is described as Oberon's daughter in the poem), but that might not fit the Gargoyles Univers
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders

And after a bit of research, I've already found evidence that the son is not the Green Knight: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=1341

But I did find the interesting tidbit that either Morgan or Nimue is at the Gathering, but the other isn't: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=1379

Supermorff

Comet> I didn't think it was Banshee; I thought their daughter was Morgan le Fey. I don't remember why I thought that, but I'm sure I had a reason at the time. It kinda followed (in my head, anyway) that their son would be the Green Knight.
Supermorff

Anthony Tini>If we could get Black Manta's Celebrity Hot Tub to crossover with every Weisman show, that would be great.
Harlan Phoenix

Who's the man with the underwater plan?

Black Manta!

Who's got the time to do the crime?

Black Manta!

Who do you know with his own Hot Tub Show?

Black Manta!

Thanks for watching! This has been...

"Black Manta's Celebrity Hot Tub!"

Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

I hope this will be posted and I won't get another "wrong security code" message :S

I'm currently trying to find out some things about Queen Mab. While this I found this Ask Greg question and it made me think about who these two children of Oberon and Titania could be.
http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=7877
I don't know, but the Banshee was the first that came to my mind when thinking about who the girl could be. I don't have the slightest idea about the identity of the boy yet, though.

Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!

You had me at Black Manta kills Peter Maza in his celebrity hot tub.
Anthony Tini - [anthonyotini@gmail.com]

The mention of the Quarrymen reminded me of a passage in "The Meaning of Shakespeare" by Harold C. Goddard. In the chapter on "Coriolanus", Goddard discusses the opening scene, where a group of Roman commoners is rebelling in protest against the Senate's misrule; he comments that casual readers or viewers see them all as vengeful and violent, but a closer look at that scene reveals that it's the member named "First Citizen" in the script who displays these traits, with a "Second Citizen" who argues for a more moderate and reasonable approach, and that the audience has unwittingly assumed that everyone in the crowd is like the First Citizen and imposed his characterization on them.

I think this could describe the misconception of the Quarrymen that the "Goliath Chronicles" used, and which even often trickled down to the fans; assuming, mistakenly, that they were all like Castaway (who has specific reasons for his actions and behavior, as his true identity makes clear). (Just goes to show how relevant to "Gargoyles" Shakespeare is.)

Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders

You lost me at "kills Peter Maza."
Harlan Phoenix

I would like to see Glasses become a real threat. I could never take Dracon and his men seriously. Partly because, they seemed to be on the bottom rung of the villain hierarchy. Dracon just seemed more of an annoyance than a villain. I'm sure a major reason for this was because, as a kids show, many of their criminal activities could not be shown or even mentioned. This however, could change as a comic book aimed at older viewers. For example, Glasses assumes control of the gang, kills Peter Maza as a warning to Eliza. No one can prove he is connected, so Goliath tries Gargoyle justice, but Glasses calmly tells him that this act would destroy everything he is working for. Or Glasses is being backed by some mysterious power broker. A possible crossover with Bad Guys.
Brack

PAUL> The Quarrymen are not a street gang. And Chaz and Lou are criminals? Since when? They were homeless guys living in the Labyrinth who became Fang's flunkies. I guess that makes them criminals, but they are petty crooks at best. Not organized crime.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
"For every two dozen Phantom Menaces, there is a Return of the King. For every two-bit Shyamalan, a Stanley Kubrick is born. For every poor soul who groans during an Adam Sandler-funded Rob Schneider vehicle, there is a child crying life-affirming tears when Bambi's mom is shot. Somewhere out there, a film student is finding out what Rosebud means for the first time. A man is pausing as Fredo prays the Hail Mary on a boat over Lake Tahoe. A woman grasps her heart as Bogie's love flies off into the foggy night. All it takes is one moment to change a person. And that one moment... no matter how fleeting... is worth a thousand Transformers."

Wouldn't Glasses have some competition from the Quarrymen? I know that many Quarrymen are honest but frightened citizens, but I also know that there are criminals like Chaz among their ranks.

On the other hand, Castaway tried to keep Chaz on a short leash; he probably frowns on flagrant criminal activity.

Paul - [nampahcfluap@yahoo.com]

MATT> Greg has said before that Tony and Glasses have known each other since they were kids. Glasses was most likely Tony's lieutenant without being a member of the Dracon Family. I'm sure Dominic would have frowned upon it, and I doubt Glasses was a made man at all.

But Tom Hagan, even without being a made man was still an essential part of the Corleone Family, even if not an official member, so there you go.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
"For every two dozen Phantom Menaces, there is a Return of the King. For every two-bit Shyamalan, a Stanley Kubrick is born. For every poor soul who groans during an Adam Sandler-funded Rob Schneider vehicle, there is a child crying life-affirming tears when Bambi's mom is shot. Somewhere out there, a film student is finding out what Rosebud means for the first time. A man is pausing as Fredo prays the Hail Mary on a boat over Lake Tahoe. A woman grasps her heart as Bogie's love flies off into the foggy night. All it takes is one moment to change a person. And that one moment... no matter how fleeting... is worth a thousand Transformers."

Considering Greg B's observation, it is probably a surprise that Glasses even has the position that he does. I wonder: with Dracon and Brod behind bars, does that leave the organized crime field wide open? Will Glasses take the oppurtunity to form a new mob of his own?

And where is Tony Dracon's father anyway?

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Thats three down and two to go..." -Sevarius, "The Reckoning"

Greg W once had some stuff to say about Glasses: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=5039

I was particularly interested in the line about him being more of a leader than a follower. Way back, I thought that might mean he took over Tony's role as capo in the family business, until Greg B pointed out that organised crime is one of the most insular and racist organisations out there and that it just wouldn't happen. But I am curious what might be in store for Glasses.

Supermorff

My lucky number 11.

Quick and relatively orderly countdown today. Classic style too.

Let's see... Anyone have any thoughts for the future character development of Glasses in the Gargoyles Universe?

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Thats three down and two to go..." -Sevarius, "The Reckoning"

Tenth.
Ross
"Oh villain! Villain! Smiling cursed villain! That one might smile and smile, and be a villain! Gooo VILLAIN! Whooooo! Yeah!" -- Sally Avril

Shari says hello.
Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!

I ate a pretty good breakfast this morning.
Paul - [nampahcfluap@yahoo.com]

All Lucky Sevens.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

Sixth
Supermorff

(5th)Fifth!!!!!
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]

fourth
SomeGeek
http://www.squidoo.com/thegeeklens-cartoons

Third up in here!
Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"Hey Joe, where you goin' with that gun in your hand?" - Jimi Hendrix

Second!
Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

first
oneuke