Comment Room Archive : Gargoyles : Station Eight

That and he already knew who Elisa Maza was, and her relationship with Goliath. I think she's also a special case.
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Sun, Aug 18, 2013 10:30:52 pm EDT from 67.189.178.253

Todd Jensen> While I'm not disputing the legalities of his actions, he at least was doing so in an area with no bystander to witness his crime, thus not tarnishing The Quarrymen image.
Antiyonder
posted @ Sun, Aug 18, 2013 8:52:58 pm EDT from 192.182.145.138

Sorry for the double post, but I just watched the first act of "The Journey" on YouTube, including the scene with the Quarryman meeting. The animation shows so clearly that the people there are regular New York citizens (including Vinnie, Billy and Susan's mother, and Art and Lois) - something that the production team clearly forgot once they'd made that episode and moved on to the others.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Sun, Aug 18, 2013 6:59:06 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

It's not threatening the bystanders, but it's attempted cop-killing - something which wouldn't look good for the Quarrymen, and which could lead to big problems with the NYPD. As Captain Chavez said in "Deadly Force", "No one hits a cop and gets away with it. No one."
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Sun, Aug 18, 2013 6:07:28 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

And I also suspect that doing something like that out of sight of witnesses is a big deal. Not like, oh I don't know, firing anti-aircraft cannons in the middle of the city (I'd point out he wasn't wearing a hood there, but that was the least of the episode's problems).
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Sun, Aug 18, 2013 11:30:19 am EDT from 67.189.178.253

TODD & AANTIYONDER> I imagine in Casatway's mind, there's a distinction between random bystanders and those who've knowingly "betrayed humanity to the demons." If he truly sees the Quarrymen's mission as a war, he might well consider the later "enemy combatants."
Algernon
posted @ Sun, Aug 18, 2013 11:26:51 am EDT from 109.79.69.121

ANTIYONDER - Thanks. I was thinking of Castaway being ready to kill not just Goliath (a gargoyle, whose existence wasn't recognized under human law), but also Elisa (a human, and a police officer at that), and then turning on Vinnie (also a human) when the latter protested. I do suspect that that scene might have influenced the new production team's notion of the Quarrymen as over-the-top maniacs.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Sun, Aug 18, 2013 6:26:19 am EDT from 108.226.1.5

Todd Jensen> Just rereading through the Comment Room for TGS, and wanted to discuss one of your comments (from 2011). Yeah, a couple years old, but I've been wanting to talk about something like this:
"I think it understandable that the TGS staff's take on the Quarrymen and Castaway came too close to the "Goliath Chronicles" version; for all our dislike of the third season, it must have been difficult to shake its portrait of them out of our heads. Thank goodness that Greg Weisman provided a few scenes for them in the comic book as an antidote (and one reason why I hope he gets to tell more "Gargoyles" stories someday is to strengthen that antidote) - especially the scene in "Bad Guys: Redemption" where Castaway's doing a television commercial for the Quarrymen and makes it sound like a Covenant House-type organization. (And to be fair about it, Castaway did start acting close to a raving lunatic in "The Journey", when he'd cornered Goliath and Elisa at the clock tower's ruins.)"

I'd say it's still fairly different as at that point they were in an abandoned building rather than an area with a huge risk to any bystanders.

Now if any canon moment was closer, I'd say the fight on the roof as well as chasing them via helicopter was so. Though I'll have to read the comic again this week to be sure.
Antiyonder
posted @ Sun, Aug 18, 2013 4:49:39 am EDT from 192.182.145.138

The Disney Movie Shop on eBay is currently displaying 1,121 sold for S2V2.

I wish we could know what the numbers are for the Disney Movie Club as well and how the numbers compare to other exclusives.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Sat, Aug 17, 2013 9:38:06 pm EDT from 174.101.230.22

BISHANSKY - I can certainly imagine Demona being especially keen on keeping the "hordes" of humanity away from her house. She most likely wouldn't approve human visitors at all unless they're flunkeys dropping off something they stole for her (as in "The Mirror") - and even then, it would be a tone of "leave the thing you stole for me, take your money, and leave now - or else!"

I certainly would not recommend trick-or-treating at her address come Halloween (and would recommend even less eating any treats Demona were to hand out, unless they'd been thoroughly examined by a chemical lab - and maybe not even then) - or, for that matter, trying to t.p. the place (I can imagine Demona turning the kids who tried to do that into mummies with a tone of "let the punishment fit the crime"). And definitely no Christmas caroling there come December, either (unless you want her to drown you in a barrel of egg nog or something like that).
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Sat, Aug 17, 2013 6:09:09 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

Greg B> Being able to lay an egg and said egg being viable, coming to term after ten years, then hatching without issue are not the same thing.

Personally though, I don't see a reason for the clones to be sterile - the need for cloning continuing into the future could simply come from a lack of numbers and genetic diversity amongst the clan.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Sat, Aug 17, 2013 5:35:09 pm EDT from 174.101.230.22

Interesting - that's a great post!
FTBM
posted @ Sat, Aug 17, 2013 5:34:12 pm EDT from 173.208.90.179

FTBM - You're assuming that Sevarius's genetic alterations were designed to mutate the germline (reproductive material) in addition to the somatic cells (the components of your own physical makeup). I make no such assumption. The cells that lead to your reproductive material split off fairly soon in terms of biological development. Sevarius would have had to have made an EXTREME effort to modify all of the mutates to breed true and, quite frankly, when you can just mutate more test subjects, why would you bother (unless his employer told him to, which I also do not presume)?

To quote myself from almost exactly three years ago: "The mutates are, in a way, both easier and harder to deal with. Taxonomically, they would seem to be an abberrant form of Homo sapiens. They could perhaps be given a subspecies name of 'mutatensis' or 'chimericus.' However, the real question is how developed their mutations are. Their physical alterations definitively show that Sevarius fully succeeded in altering their somatic cell lines. However, if their germline cells are untouched overall (as is typical of mutation beyond VERY early development), then any offspring the mutates would have, with either another mutate or a normal human, would be pretty much baseline human, thus establishing them definitively as mutated Homo sapiens rather than a new species (and thus incapable of breeding with normal humans, save perhaps a sterile hybrid). In other words, it all depends on how much work Sevarius really did and if Xanatos wanted a true-breeding group of gargoyle stand-ins. Talon and Maggie's kid, whatever it may be, will basically be the primary indicator as to whether or not the mutates are just altered humans or a newly-created chimeric species."
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Sat, Aug 17, 2013 5:29:31 pm EDT from 174.101.230.22

@GregXB - so now I have this song stuck in my head http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWjgS4O1Aes
FTBM
posted @ Sat, Aug 17, 2013 3:08:54 pm EDT from 173.208.90.179

On a lighter note, Greg has said in the past that Demona's townhouse (which is not a manor, fanficers!) is located in Gramercy Park. This is an old article, but...

http://gawker.com/216069/gramercy-park-bastion-of-manhattan-snobbery-just-got-a-little-more-nauseating

Such an appropriate place for her, don't you think?
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Sat, Aug 17, 2013 2:03:48 pm EDT from 67.189.178.253

MATT> As much as I like your theory, it's been Jossed. Or Greged.

"Delilah is genetically much more Gargoyle than human. She is capable of laying a gargoyle egg. Thailog would have insisted on that. But she couldn't mate with a human without some scientific or magical help."

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=2892
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Sat, Aug 17, 2013 12:22:01 pm EDT from 67.189.178.253

@Pterobat = @Antiyonder, sorry bout that.
FTBM
posted @ Sat, Aug 17, 2013 11:20:03 am EDT from 173.208.90.179

@Todd - definitely feigned.

@Brainiac - you're right, I was thinking of just Goliath and Angela. Prob no need for stunning b/c everyone else was unconscious and they were surrounded and at gunpoint. Might make for a good AskGreg question though.

@Pterobat - if you are referring to Hunter's Moon, no she definitely wasn't thinking in that moment! So reactive.

@Matt - I hand't thought of the Labyrinth Clan - but that makes me wonder, on a complete tangent, would Derek and Maggie's child be compatible with any other creature? B/c otherwise seems like the kid will be doomed to a faily lonely existence unless more mutates are created, being that it will at some point be the only one of it's "kind".

Also, and thins goes back to my question during the 2198 discussion, re: females nursing - you think they actually need to be around hatchlings to be be triggered? Would it matter if the timeline is screwed up for them? (I am thinking the eggs are put in stasis but someone correct me if I'm wrong about that).
FTBM
posted @ Sat, Aug 17, 2013 11:18:53 am EDT from 173.208.90.179

Speaking of "The Reckoning"....

I noticed when I watched it on DVD recently that, when Angela first tells Demona that she's her mother and Demona cries "How dare you mock me? I have no daughter!", her eyes aren't glowing red. And we later learn that Demona knew all along that Angela was her daughter, before she was captured. Could the "eyes not glowing red" be a hint that Demona's outrage was feigned?
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Sat, Aug 17, 2013 7:09:57 am EDT from 108.226.1.5

Todd> "The two living races besides humans in the Gargoyles Universe, gargoyles and Oberon's Children, were both the root of many real myths and legends, so it's likely that the "Lost Race" would be as well. Unless, that is, it died out before humans came along, and only the gargoyles preserved any memories of it."

Actually, Greg has said that the Lost Race did know (and thus were still around) when all the other races came around: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=6445

2008 Egg Theft> Lots of possibilites there. Yes, Demona and Sevarius are both possibilites, but really, who WOULDN'T want a gargoyle egg. Its value on the black market would be very high, so that might attract criminal elements. Then theres the scientific angle. then theres the politcal angle. The Quarrymen would want to destroy it, Demona would want to raise it. And on and on and on.

My personal theory is that it is the Labyrinth Clan that steals the Manhattan Clan's eggs. Maybe in 2008, Delilah will discover that she is sterile and the clones' desire to procreate leads to them stealing eggs from the Manhattan Clan. I imagine the Manhattan Clan would get the eggs back, of course and that the Labyrinth Clan will discover a solution that works for them: cloning.

Harlan Phoenix> I love the idea for TimeStumbler. Hilarious. You should mention that one to Greg.

Gargoyles Nursing> Given that there is such a long span between the laying and the hatching of eggs, I don't think it is merely producing an egg that causes a female gargoyle to lactate ten years later. Rather, I think the presence of hatchlings triggers a response in female gargoyles of reproductive age to begin producing milk. Thus, any female of age around hatchlings can nurse them, whether they laid an egg or not.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" - Sevarius, "Louse"
posted @ Sat, Aug 17, 2013 6:09:31 am EDT from 99.92.109.252

Reposting this link. Dread has made it up to "The Mirror": http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?p=26657499
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Sat, Aug 17, 2013 3:57:07 am EDT from 67.189.178.253

FTBM> The moment she shows a willingness to kill her daughter, is the moment that it's clear that she isn't thinking.
Antiyonder
posted @ Sat, Aug 17, 2013 1:25:32 am EDT from 192.182.145.138

Wacky hijinks with a maternally-challenged Demona aren't the first thing I picture when I consider her kidnapping eggs and raising hatchlings to follow her ideology. All of that is horrible stuff to consider, and exactly what Demona would do..young minds are the easiest to mould to her view, after all.

And she wouldn't give a damn about how it would make Angela feel. Everything would be for the good of Angela in the end, is what she'd tell herself.
Pterobat - [incisivis at gmail dot com]
posted @ Sat, Aug 17, 2013 12:44:04 am EDT from 174.3.245.222

FTBM> Actually, all the others save Goliath and Angela were knocked out already. Remember the heap of unconscious forms Thailog revealed before introducing his clan to Goliath?
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Fri, Aug 16, 2013 11:12:33 pm EDT from 174.101.230.22

@Gregxb - as I recall they were consious while being chained up - at gunpoint. I am pretty sure I recall Goliath was. so no one was stunned.
FTBM
posted @ Fri, Aug 16, 2013 10:20:57 pm EDT from 173.208.90.179

@GregXB - none of what you mentioned falls into my opinion of her "queer" decision making. It's right in line.
"She wants to change Angela. Angela is her new excuse." EXACTLY! And, again in my opinion, I think she has been devoting a lot of actual *thought* (scheming) into how to go about that.

@Todd - I brought this up like, a few months ago, but can she even nurse? If a female gargoyle goes thru the "heat" (and for the sake of the convo let's assume Demona does) will they produce milk even if they don't mate? Or even if there are no eggs around? I really do think she would need allies, and I think she would know that too, instinctively.

But OTOH, I get the impression the eggs are stolen but found before hatching so its probably a moot point.
FTBM
posted @ Fri, Aug 16, 2013 10:19:07 pm EDT from 173.208.90.179

TODD> With the advance in technology, who's to say she couldn't synthesize a formula? We do it for human babies.
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Fri, Aug 16, 2013 10:14:54 pm EDT from 67.189.178.253

So, this now begs the question. What happened during the second commercial break of "The Reckoning". Did they stun Goliath and Angela before chaining the wall? If so, which one of them pulled the trigger on Angela with the stun setting?

Which of them chained Demona to the wall? Two possibilities, either Demona did it herself, or she stood back and watched Thailog do it... either way, she didn't seem to broken up about it.
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Fri, Aug 16, 2013 10:13:32 pm EDT from 67.189.178.253

Since we know from Greg that female gargoyles nurse their young....

If Demona kidnapped a whole bunch of hatchlings (or at least, more than one), I'd like to see her response when they all get hungry - and extremely loud about it. (That'd definitely be one occasion where she'd need a few female gargoyle allies.)
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Fri, Aug 16, 2013 10:12:04 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

As opposed to turning the city to stone and going on a killing spree. Or attempting to kill every man, woman, and child on Earth in one fell swoop? I can easily see her going after eggs and not needing backup to push her into it.

She's not going to become "kinder and gentler" because of Angela. She's not going to stop trying to destroy the human race or take control of the clan, or turn Elisa into a bloody smear because Angela would wave a finger in her face.

She helped Thailog chain Angela to a wall in "The Reckoning". She nearly killed Angela in "Hunter's Moon" when she tossed that vial into the air...

She loves Angela, but she doesn't want to change for her. She wants to change Angela. Angela is her new excuse.
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Fri, Aug 16, 2013 10:01:47 pm EDT from 67.189.178.253

It's funny, because that was exactly the scene I was picturing in my head when I said I thought it would give her *pause*.

Demona is her own worst enemy, but at the same time I don't think she's a *total* idiot. Like I said, unless she has a gargoyle ally (or allies) at the time, she's not my primary suspect for the egg-snatching. She takes "queer" (not gay queer) chances when she has backup (see: Thailog's role in her seducing MacBeth - snatching eggs falls into queer category in my overall opinion of her decision making)

....but I hope to find out someday if I am right or wrong about that :)
FTBM
posted @ Fri, Aug 16, 2013 9:35:10 pm EDT from 173.208.90.179

I'd be fine if the egg capturing wasn't Sevarius related. I love Sevarius to death, but there's been plenty of gargoyle-study related mad science around these parts. I feel like you could keep Sevarius busy without the eggs even based on the two little springboards from the end of Bash and Bad Guys (I assumed, for example, that a Hunter/Demona clone would make up a member of the Bad Guys rogues gallery had we ever gotten that far).

I also hold out for a spin off called TimeStumbler, where Malibu falls over into a new time period every week and must survive on rudimentary communication skills. He returns five minutes later, forty years older and, somehow, an accomplished master of Esperanto.
Harlan Phoenix
The enemy is clever. We're smaller but whatever. When we put it together, I'll form the head.
posted @ Fri, Aug 16, 2013 9:34:35 pm EDT from 76.2.66.79

FTBM> <<While I can see Demona wanting to get the eggs away to "safety", and raised apart from human influence, I have a hard time picturing her dealing with garg-tots (or even necessarily wanting to) especially on her own. Would she even be capable of feeding them?>>

I think she'd try to find a way. She is fanatical enough.

<<Plus the sheer extent to which that would turn Angela completely against her might even give her pause.>>

Yeah, because Demona doesn't have a knack for making her life, or the lives of those she cares about, miserable. ;)

I apologize, I don't mean to pick on you, but...

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdygcxHCCl1rhuguao1_1280.jpg

Yeah...
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Fri, Aug 16, 2013 9:17:13 pm EDT from 67.189.178.253

Heh. I don't think Demona would deliberately *harm* them, honestly...but duct-tape one to a wall? That I could see.

Really though, assuming Sevarius is still around by then, I don't see how he could resist trying to nab the eggs. "Think of the possibilities". But we know that gargoyles will be captured and experimented on, and any scientist would at least be tempted by the opportunity to study them while still forming in the egg. Could be a lot of money in getting and selling them too.
FTBM
posted @ Fri, Aug 16, 2013 9:11:33 pm EDT from 173.208.90.179

Yes, Sevarius is another major suspect.

Demona stuck with looking after a group of hatchlings on her own - having realized the drawbacks of that part of the scheme too late - now that would be amusing to see. (Though I still hope that someone rescues the hatchlings from her before she finally loses it and does something drastic.)
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Fri, Aug 16, 2013 9:03:48 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

While I can see Demona wanting to get the eggs away to "safety", and raised apart from human influence, I have a hard time picturing her dealing with garg-tots (or even necessarily wanting to) especially on her own. Would she even be capable of feeding them? Plus the sheer extent to which that would turn Angela completely against her might even give her pause.

If she had made some gargoyle allies by that time, however, I would see it as being a greater possibility.

And even more terrifying possibility to me however, would be if human scientists took them. Especially Sevarias-type scientists.
FTBM
posted @ Fri, Aug 16, 2013 8:53:22 pm EDT from 173.208.90.179

Come to think of it, we know from "Ask Greg" (though it's still canon-in-training, obviously) that in 2008, someone steals eggs from the rookery in Manhattan. Of course, I can imagine several suspects, but Demona would certainly be near the top of the list, if not at the top.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Fri, Aug 16, 2013 7:10:07 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

I do think that, even if the Lost Race wasn't dragons, it's likely to be some version of an actual mythical creature. The two living races besides humans in the Gargoyles Universe, gargoyles and Oberon's Children, were both the root of many real myths and legends, so it's likely that the "Lost Race" would be as well. (Unless, that is, it died out before humans came along, and only the gargoyles preserved any memories of it. Since gargoyles don't seem to share their traditions that often with humans - with a few special exceptions, like Elisa, the knowledge of the Lost Race would likely not have found its way into human myth and legend in such a scenario.)

Dragons are certainly a mystery at this point, since the only one we've seen in the Gargoyles Universe was the animated stone dragon in "Pendragon" - which most likely bore as much resemblance to flesh-and-blood dragons as the statues that Oberon animated in "The Gathering Part Two" did to gargoyles.

I've long suspected that some of Demona's unadmitted guilt over the Wyvern Massacre stems, not only from her not warning the rest of the clan about the Vikings, but also letting Princess Katharine and the Magus take the eggs away. Remember, Demona didn't know that the Princess and the Magus had changed, had realized that they had treated the gargoyles wrongly, and wanted to make amends; nor did she know that Goliath had entrusted the eggs to them. To her, it would have looked as if they'd ransacked the eggs and were carting them off to do horrible things to. (Demona describes the event in those terms in "The Reckoning", when she's talking to Angela in the Labyrinth, and though a lot of what she said during that period was clearly lies in an attempt to bring Angela over to her side, I suspect she still really did believe that that was what Katharine and the Magus were doing.)

I still suspect that Demona's desire to find at least one gargoyle she could turn to her cause - and raising it from the egg would be the best hope of that - would prove stronger than any indifference towards Egwardo for not being biologically related to her. Of course, the big question is when and how she'd find out about the egg. Of course, Demona has her own way of getting information. Katana was carrying Egwardo when the clan headed off to Time Square to fight Jackal, Hyena, and Wolf, and if Demona had picked up any information about the fight, she might have spotted the egg. (I'm even more curious about what her response would be to those new gargoyles suddenly in the clan, and especially to the dramatic change in Brooklyn. Would she think back to the events of 997 and start to suspect what had happened? I wonder how surprised she'll be to see the Timedancing Brooklyn in 2198.)
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Fri, Aug 16, 2013 6:21:33 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

PAUL> "I'm not so sure that Demona would have any interest in Egwardo. She didn't even try to take any of the eggs from the Magus, Katharine and Tom in 994, even knowing that one of those eggs was hers."

Why would the fact that one of those eggs was her's make a difference at all back in 994? Yes, because the humans have rubbed off on her, the biology matters to her now... but I very much doubt it did back in 994.

As for why she didn't try to take the eggs from them. She was completely emotionally broken at that point... her entire clan was destroyed, her true love was frozen in stone. Goliath, even, was too emotionally broken to care for the eggs... he had chosen suicide over them. They were both emotionally destroyed and both abandoned their children. Now, both of them are playing catch-up, Goliath with Angela and the rest of the Avalon Clan when he sees them; and Demona with Angela... albeit in her own, twisted way.

"On the other hand, that was in 994, and she wasn't quite as bitter or vengeful then as now. Still, one of Demona's defining characteristics is that she has never really grown or matured, so I wouldn't expect her to act much differently now than she did then."

Yeah, she hasn't really grown or matured... but 994 Demona is still not quite the same animal as modern Demona. Ask yourself this question, let's say Goliath had miraculously awoken right then and there, and he rightfully blamed her for everything that happened... do you think she'd pick up a mace and attempt to bash his brains in, since bazookas had not been invented yet? I don't.
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Fri, Aug 16, 2013 3:43:06 pm EDT from 67.189.178.253

I'm not so sure that Demona would have any interest in Egwardo. She didn't even try to take any of the eggs from the Magus, Katharine and Tom in 994, even knowing that one of those eggs was hers.

On the other hand, that was in 994, and she wasn't quite as bitter or vengeful then as now. Still, one of Demona's defining characteristics is that she has never really grown or matured, so I wouldn't expect her to act much differently now than she did then.
Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Aug 16, 2013 3:22:14 pm EDT from 24.14.51.43

Personally, whether they're the Lost Race or something else, given the massive quantity of draconic mythology around the world, if dragons weren't in the Gargoyles Universe at some point in some fashion, I'll be sorely disappointed.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Fri, Aug 16, 2013 3:11:38 pm EDT from 137.183.232.27

Personally, I tend to think most depictions of sapient mythological dragons were Children taking on draconic forms e.g. Tiamat, Níðhöggr, Fafnir, The Dragon Kings of the Four Seas ect.

Non-sapient dragons my very well by the product of the Children mating with regular predatory reptiles like snakes and crocodilians.

But that's just my personal theory, I don't really have anything from the canon to back it up.
Algernon
posted @ Fri, Aug 16, 2013 2:31:58 pm EDT from 109.76.188.50

I tend to agree with Rebel. I think dragons in the Gargoyles Universe probably had an inherent magical quality to them. I also suspect they were the Lost Race. If both those assumptions are true, then they couldn't be descended from Third Race pairings because the Lost Race was around long before the Third Race popped up.

And keep in mind that while gargates may have evolved as a group many dozens of millions of years ago, the gargoyle and beast species that exist in modern times are unlikely to be more than a few million years old. Depending on their origin, this would also be the case with dragons. Their ancestors might've branched off from other lines many eons ago, but their species could be relatively young. Modern gargoyles likely didn't exist 100 million years ago, even if gargates did. And I don't think any of the sentient races existed as such more than 10 million years ago at most.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" - Sevarius, "Louse"
posted @ Fri, Aug 16, 2013 1:57:41 pm EDT from 99.92.109.252

Personally I would like it very much if Dragons were the Lost Race, since that would mean that (real live) dragons actually existed in the Gargoyles universe, and were intelligent. Which would be amazing.

Other possibilities involving Dragons are that they are a variety of New Olympian, or maybe a dragon (of sorts) is sometimes what you get when you cross Third Race and Gargoyle.
Rebel - [rebelfornea at gmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, Aug 16, 2013 12:23:09 pm EDT from 174.109.65.242

Hey, I haven't posted for a while, but at the moment I'm thinking again about the origin and nature of the dragons in the Gargoyles Universe.
Some theories appeared. One of them is that dragons could actually be the "Lost Race", another is that they are a Gargate species.
Now I wonder, if dragons were the "Lost Race", which kind of animal did they evolve from?
I mean, we are pretty much all thinking that Gargates evolved from Therapsids, which means they started from the late Permian/early Triassic. The pterosaur theory still exists, but I don't think it's very plausible. And then we have the Lost Race, which is the oldest of all races and therefore can't have evolved from anything after the early triassic.
-> If that race is dragons, it would be easy to say it evolved from Dinosaurs or other Archosaurs, but that would mean that this race isn't really THAT old, it also would mean less diversity since we would have 2 races that evolved from archosaurs (Gargoyles and Dragons). <- This only applies to the pterosaur theory, of course.
So, if we have Therapsid Gargates AND dragons as the lost race, that would mean dragons could have evolved from maybe the earliest reptiles of the Carboniferous.
And if they aren't the Lost Race, how do you imagine that race?

I actually don't think that the Lost Race are dragons, although the thought is interesting. I imagine them as either squid-like or insect-like. Mostly squid-like.
Comet
Double, double, toil and trouble. Fire burn and cauldron bubble.
posted @ Fri, Aug 16, 2013 8:06:26 am EDT from 80.187.108.123

Certainly there'd be some danger of "egg thieves". Sevarius might like a gargoyle egg - and the hatchling that would emerge from it - to do experiments on. Demona would no doubt be keen on kidnapping it to see if she could raise it "properly", away from the influence of Goliath and his clan and their beliefs that gargoyles should protect humanity rather than wiping it off the face of the Earth before it wipes them off. Castaway would want to smash it before it hatches. And so on....
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Fri, Aug 16, 2013 7:26:50 am EDT from 108.226.1.5

We really don't know enough about how much of the rookery under Castle Wyvern was altered or destroyed to guess if anything remains, but I hope the rookery is at least somewhat like the one back in 994. A room in the castle just doesn't feel right to me. And it certainly seems a bit too... exposed.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" - Sevarius, "Louse"
posted @ Fri, Aug 16, 2013 3:48:34 am EDT from 99.92.109.252

All we know (and even the source isn't canon) about the clan's accomodations for Egwardo is that they had Bronx and Fu-Dog stay behind at the castle to guard it in "Religious Studies 101" - without mentioning what part of the castle the egg was in. A story, of course, which Greg Weisman himself has said is non-canonical, but which may reflect his plans in case he gets to tell more official "Gargoyles" stories. (And guarding the egg would certainly give Bronx and Fu-Dog more to do than just sprawling out beside Hudson's recliner and taking a nap.)

But I think that a rookery (even if a small one, at present) would reflect the gargoyles' hopes for the future, in a most "Gargoyle Way" manner.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Thu, Aug 15, 2013 6:12:38 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

Meant to post yesrerday, but I finally got my copy of S2V2 in the mail yesterday and checked it out.

How is S2V2 doing sales wise, and were we ever given the release for the first season?
Antiyonder
posted @ Thu, Aug 15, 2013 4:56:08 pm EDT from 68.113.7.254

Maybe they'll just put a crib in the room with the old arm chair and TV. :)

***

In "YJ: Legacy" news: http://kotaku.com/if-you-ever-wanted-to-be-an-apprentice-superhero-this-1148401773
Anthony Tini
posted @ Thu, Aug 15, 2013 2:32:09 pm EDT from 159.240.11.216

Todd> I have thought for a few years now, wondering if the Manhattan Clan asked Xanatos for a room in which to create a rookery. I never considdred this a "Creativity demon" as you did, it was just a thought, but I'm happy to see someone else had the same idea! :)
Battle Beast - [Canada]
I did it! I watched all 485 Best picture nominees in 365 days!
posted @ Thu, Aug 15, 2013 1:25:37 pm EDT from 75.159.21.195

Todd, very interesting.
Adam Carlson - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Thu, Aug 15, 2013 8:58:16 am EDT from 170.112.1.251

Sorry for the double post, but I found this entry for today (August 15) at "Ward's Book of Days", a site which lists an event in British history for every day of the year.

http://www.wardsbookofdays.com/15august.htm
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Thu, Aug 15, 2013 6:44:21 am EDT from 108.226.1.5

Might make up for all the occasions when the gargoyles got into fights that destroyed archaeological treasures (a feature that Greg Weisman's pointed out about many of the episodes, especially the Avalon World Tour ones).

Which reminded me of a recent creativity demon I had, where after Brooklyn's return from his Timedancing, the clan makes a new rookery for Egwardo (the evidence from "Shadows of the Past" was that the original rookery was a cave beneath the castle that was left behind when Xanatos moved Castle Wyvern to New York) - just a small one, since it's only one egg, that will hatch a year later, but still a symbol of new hope, and come 2008 they might have more eggs to place there - and Owen comments in a resigned tone that at least this time, the modifications they're making to the castle are constructive rather than destructive.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Wed, Aug 14, 2013 6:18:53 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

@Todd, I like your lighthouse idea. It's also a good place for them to sleep during the day since the light wouldn't be on and their stone bodies wouldn't be blocking it.

I was thinking and I don't know if it's been mentioned before, but I like the idea of Gargoyles possibly protecting the Great Wall, Taj Mahal, The Colosseum or other wonders of the world at some point in history.
Anthony Tini
posted @ Wed, Aug 14, 2013 2:44:47 pm EDT from 159.240.11.216

Bwahahaha! Masterdramon, that was brilliant! :D
B!
posted @ Wed, Aug 14, 2013 10:08:01 am EDT from 213.93.186.25

I hadn't thought of that when I wrote it, but the title did occur to me afterwards. (That's still one of my favorite episodes of "Gargoyles", by the way.)
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Wed, Aug 14, 2013 8:31:44 am EDT from 108.226.1.5

Todd: Not sure whether or not it was intentional, but I'm pretty amused that your story idea is, quite literally, a lighthouse erected in the dark sea of time.
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"I will choose a path that's clear...I will choose Free Will!" - Rush
posted @ Wed, Aug 14, 2013 7:59:52 am EDT from 66.91.223.104

Here's a creativity demon I've had for a while, but decided it was time to share it (maybe I have shared it before; I'm not sure).

Back in the late 90's, I saw a documentary on PBS about lighthouses, and one of the lighthouses had gargoyle sculptures on it. That got me wondering, "What if there was a lighthouse somewhere which had gargoyles living in it?" And what made that idea all the more appealing was that lighthouses use their lights to help ships at sea, so they could be considered to have a protective function, which would suit gargoyles.

Of course, the gargoyles wouldn't be living in the lighthouse today (since none of the surviving clans match that description), so it would have to be a past group of gargoyles (maybe not a whole clan, but the remnants of one). And I'm not sure how long their manning the place would last, assuming that they weren't working with a human lighthouse keeper, since an empty lighthouse would most likely have been shut down, and if it started shining its beacon at night, people would certainly investigate.

But maybe a story about Brooklyn's Timedancing in which the Phoenix brings him to such a lighthouse, manned by gargoyles, whom he'd get to meet, and learn from them that gargoyles can carry out their creed of "gargoyles protect" in other ways than simply crime-fighting or repulsing invaders - if perhaps with a dark note of the Phoenix taking him away shortly before some nosy humans investigate the lighthouse, most likely leading to the untimely ends of its gargoyle residents, and Brooklyn protesting as the bird spirits him off to another time period.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Tue, Aug 13, 2013 6:19:15 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

Matt> Yup, he definitely has wing-arms sprouting from his forearms there. Poor Lex, wings randomly mutating on top of all the other crap he goes through in that episode. ;)

I don't recall that goof in City of Stone, but it's been a while since I watched it last.
Ross
posted @ Tue, Aug 13, 2013 4:53:30 pm EDT from 184.9.229.151

Too true, Todd.

Now there's an interesting art project. It'd be cool to see all the beasts as gargoyles and all the gargoyles as beasts.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" - Sevarius, "Louse"
posted @ Tue, Aug 13, 2013 10:14:58 am EDT from 99.92.109.252

It could have been worse; they might have had Bronx gliding about on wings.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Tue, Aug 13, 2013 7:39:05 am EDT from 108.226.1.5

Ross> I've noticed that before and it stood out to me when I saw it too. I wonder if he could fold his wings like that. I'd have to look again at how it was animated, but, in theory, I don't see why he couldn't fold them over the shoulders. The wing arm structure is largely the same as the other, afterall.

I think there is a much worse Lexington wing issue later in the episode though. If I recall correctly, when Lex is possessed by Alex and is casting the soul transference spell the wing arm appears to be coming out of Lex's wrists rather than his back.

As I said, I'm going off memory here, but I've watched that episode many times as it is one of my faves, so I think I'm right.

And while we are on the subject: Anyone ever catch the Lexington wing goof in City of Stone Part 4 (or 3, but I think 4). It's a big one. At one point you see the Clan (minus Bronx) gliding around the city and all five of them have bat-like wings!
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" - Sevarius, "Louse"
posted @ Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:24:19 am EDT from 99.92.109.252

Harlan> Sounds like something fan-made. Still though, I'd love to see it. Got a link? :)
KingCobra582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
posted @ Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:05:02 am EDT from 99.177.172.109

I wonder if the Gargoyles Universe had horror movies with token gargoyles in the cast.

There's a Final Destination movie where a stoned off his ass teen gargoyle is thrown into a construction site.
Harlan Phoenix
The enemy is clever. We're smaller but whatever. When we put it together, I'll form the head.
posted @ Mon, Aug 12, 2013 9:20:16 pm EDT from 76.2.66.79

Sorry for the double post, but:

I realized after my last post that "final destination" might not have been the happiest of terms (though it was Goliath/Greg Weisman who came up with that one, not me), in light of certain connotations. Improbable as the ending of "Angels in the Night" was, it was certainly better than seeing Castaway in his study with the heads of Goliath, Hudson, the trio, and Angela mounted on the wall and a rug made out of Bronx in front of his armchair. (Or - which would be more likely for him - stone fragments everywhere as he stands over them with his hammer raised.)
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Mon, Aug 12, 2013 7:57:20 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

BISHANSKY - Possibly.

In rereading "The Journey" yesterday, I noticed one remark of Goliath's that the "Goliath Chronicles" production team might have done well to pay close attention to.

"I have been... frustrated... waiting for my clan to arrive at some kind of final destination. But life is about the discoveries made on the journey itself."

Too bad the new production team didn't realize from that that the last episode for the season didn't have to have the "final destination" tone that they were clearly out to make "Angels in the Night" into.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Mon, Aug 12, 2013 7:19:20 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

TODD> I think you put more thought into "Goliath Chronicles" than they did. ;)
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Mon, Aug 12, 2013 7:08:02 pm EDT from 67.189.178.253

At least Brooklyn has a neck this time (I assume; it's hard to tell from the angle they drew him from).
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Mon, Aug 12, 2013 6:54:58 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

@Ross, check out the cover of S2V2. Brooklyn has no wings and Hudson and Broadway only have one. :P
Anthony Tini
posted @ Mon, Aug 12, 2013 3:09:03 pm EDT from 159.240.11.216

Tenth!

I just watched Possession on my S2V2 set, and noticed an animation goof that I don't recall seeing before: for a few shots after "Goliath" has brought Coldstone to the clocktower, Lexington is drawn with wings cloaked around his shoulders, instead of his usual web-wings!
Ross
posted @ Mon, Aug 12, 2013 2:05:39 pm EDT from 184.9.229.151

3^2
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Aug 12, 2013 11:18:06 am EDT from 76.73.249.170

Eighth.
Anthony Tini
posted @ Mon, Aug 12, 2013 9:01:59 am EDT from 159.240.11.216

Seventh.

I was thinking more about the likelihood that the reason why the "Goliath Chronicles" production team came up with the improbable ending for "Angels in the Night" (everybody accepts the gargoyles after they save the passenger train) was because of their mistaken assumption from "The Journey" that the whole season was supposed to be about the gargoyles' quest for acceptance, which therefore had to be resolved in the final episode - and hence, they'd forced themselves into a situation where they *had* to come up with a contrived last minute turnaround.

And then I thought, "Why not, for fun, imagine what other such unlikely, far-fetched, even downright outlandish endings the production team could have come up with to provide an obligatory 'humanity finally makes peace with the gargoyles' ending to the 'Goliath Chronicles'?"

Here's one to get the ideas coming:

Titania, concerned that the Quarryman movement and anti-gargoyle hysteria in general could endanger Fox and Alexander, decides to solve the problem by subjecting Castaway to the old "Tonight you will be visited by three spirits" routine. (Though that idea would get bonus points if the "three spirits" resembled Jason, Robyn, and the "Hunter's Moon"-era Jon, and if the sequence acknowledged that the true source of Castaway's hatred was the suppressed guilt over shooting Jason, rather than simple racism.)

Speaking of which, I watched "Hunter's Moon" on the new DVD yesterday afternoon, and decided to follow it up by rereading "The Journey" in "Clan-Building". It reads all the better if you've just seen the events of "Hunter's Moon", but I spotted an inconsistency; Captain Chavez's office door is labeled "Chief of Detectives" in the television series, but "NYPD" in the comic. (A slip-up by David Hedgecock?)
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Mon, Aug 12, 2013 7:18:29 am EDT from 108.226.1.5

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