REI ESCOBAR> Not at this time, but you can watch it on TV any time you want, the complete series is on DVD>
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Sun, Sep 8, 2013 11:48:19 pm EDT from 67.189.178.253

Will Gargoyles even come back on TV?
Rei Escobar - [dark_water94 at hotmail dot com]
Rei Escobar
posted @ Sun, Sep 8, 2013 11:05:27 pm EDT from 72.9.7.75

I suppose that makes sense.
ESG
posted @ Sun, Sep 8, 2013 5:51:53 pm EDT from 50.52.31.133

ESG> Wasn't the Archmage's cave was in walking distance for the Avalon Quartet in "Shadows of the Past"?

It can't have been more than a mile so. If even that. Besides...How can one guess the range of that kind of magic?
Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
If you are on the wrong road, progress means.. walking back to the right road; ..the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive man~~C.S. Lewis
posted @ Sun, Sep 8, 2013 4:47:06 pm EDT from 24.217.38.192

Didn't Greg say something about the ghosts of Hakon and the Captain haunting Castle Wyvern? I seem to remember that he said that the castle's bad reputation as being haunted (as mentioned by Owen in "Awakening, Part Two") was due to either the ghosts of the slaughtered gargoyles, or those of Hakon and the Captain, or both.
Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sun, Sep 8, 2013 4:38:48 pm EDT from 24.14.51.43

I figured that being at least a few miles away would mean Castle Wyvern was out of its range, but I suppose that could be wrong. So you think that it makes ghosts out of anyone who isn't properly departed, but only those in close proximity gain any powers from it...
ESG
posted @ Sun, Sep 8, 2013 4:18:25 pm EDT from 50.52.31.133

ESG> Well we know the Megalith Dance is part of the same system of caves as the Archmage's lair which close enough for Hudson, Goliath and Demona to track down, have and epic battle with an evil wizard and get back to Wyvern in a single night. And I imagine the majority of humans and gargoyles who died in the vicinity of Wyvern did receive proper burials according to whatever belief systems were applicable.

Plus there's also the factor of "unfinished business" to keep in mind. Something which is such a defining aspect of every good ghost story. The Captain's guilt, Hakon's hatred ect.
Algernon
"Don't blink. Don't even blink. Blink and you're dead. They are fast. Faster than you can believe. Don't turn your back, don't look away, and DON'T blink." ~Tenth Doctor.
posted @ Sun, Sep 8, 2013 3:26:06 pm EDT from 109.78.49.16

That last comment was more snide than I wanted it to be and I regretted it right away. Apologies.
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Sun, Sep 8, 2013 3:14:17 pm EDT from 67.189.178.253

ESG> "Even though they're a significant distance from the Megalith Dance?"

Really? They are?
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Sun, Sep 8, 2013 2:52:40 pm EDT from 67.189.178.253

The clinical definition of death is unimportant. The issue is "sentient" or "not sentient."

And the entire Wyvern Clan are ghosts? Even though they're a significant distance from the Megalith Dance? That would imply...that quite a lot of people are ghosts, if you just need to violently die in your sleep without a proper burial.
ESG
posted @ Sun, Sep 8, 2013 2:48:56 pm EDT from 50.52.31.133

ESG> I believe it's been asserted before that the Coldtrio (and indeed quite likely the rest of the massacred Wyvern Clan) are ghosts without means to affect the world around them. They failed to "move on" in part due to the lack of a Wind Ceremony, much like certain human cultures believe(d) the lack of proper burial could lead to all manner of spiritual unpleasantness. The Avatar of Anubis said, "What is dead and gone cannot be restored." But that which is dead and NOT gone, that which has not "passed," like Hakon or the Coldtrio? That's something else entirely.

Speaking of Anubis and as to whether or not any of the Coldtrio should be considered as alive, I've found a few Ask Greg responses on the subject. One in particular is kinda conclusive on the matter: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=3524
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Sun, Sep 8, 2013 2:39:23 pm EDT from 174.101.230.22

FTMB> You assume too much. A far simpler explanation would be that the Grimorum can reconstruct dead souls so long as part of the body is intact. It would explain why Othello recalls nothing of the next life. And honestly, figuring in a next life just makes their morality strange. Why should they be so opposed to killing if it's akin to sending their victims to far off country they can never return from? That's probably no worse than imprisoning them, which they have no issue doing.
ESG
posted @ Sun, Sep 8, 2013 1:59:37 pm EDT from 50.52.31.133

I'm nowhere near "Possession" in my rewatch, so I can't really join in this discussion, though it's fascinating. Except I agree with Algernon that ghosts and souls are the same thing. I watched "Legion" today, and I would say that Othello, Desdemona, and Iago are ghosts; they definitely died in the Wyvern massacre and their souls were brought back from...wherever...and bound to the Coldstone body by Demona's sorcery. That certainly suggests an afterlife to me. And I don't think it's murder to "free" a ghost/soul from some earthbound object, which is what I gather happens to Iago? There's even an argument to be made that doing so is a restoring of the natural order.

You know what else I noticed watching "Legion"? Iago wears a gold hoop earring, just like Demona! COINCIDENCE? Yeah, probably. But it amuses me to think it's some kind of indication - Gargoyle w/earring = Bad News.
Melissa
Rewatching Gargoyles and blogging about it - http://ramblingsofpicturebox.blogspot.com/
posted @ Sun, Sep 8, 2013 12:48:22 pm EDT from 184.6.105.167

If Goliath ever had a motive and opportunity to commit murder, it was when he confronted Hakon and the Captain after the Wyvern Massacre. And instead he saved Katharine's life.

On the subject of "Possession," I have had two thoughts about it that aren't really relevant to each other:

1. I think it's Brooklyn's karma for his involvement in "Temptation" that he gets to experience being mind-controlled (or worse) by an evil gargoyle.

2. Soul-transfer is presented as something so easy that a quarter-Avalonian baby could do it. I expect that someday Alex will be an extremely powerful wizard, and I look forward to more stories about him...
Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sun, Sep 8, 2013 12:19:46 pm EDT from 24.14.51.43

@ESG "The problem with that is that any aferlife is only ever eluded to in the vaguest of ways. There's certainly no substantial evidence for such a thing in their world."

It seems to me that the fact of the soul continuing to exist after death is pretty substantial evidence that there is such thing as an afterlife in the garg universe.

I often wondered what Desdemona/Coldstone/Iago's souls were doing/where they were prior to Demona and Xanatos calling them back.
FTBM
posted @ Sun, Sep 8, 2013 8:53:12 am EDT from 74.115.160.166

I appreciate the promptness.

In any case, is your statement that the clan will murder, but only if the benefit is particularly great? I don't think that's consistent with what we've seen before. Perhaps Dracon is a steam engine; what about David Xanatos circa "Eye of the Beholder?" A serious threat who has organized several attacks on the gargoyles, inflicted great emotional harm on Elisa and shows no sign of stopping. Despite this the Gargoyles don't seem to be out for his life. When Goliath confronts Xanatos partway through "Eye of the Beholder" he is clearly not murderous, despite Xanatos being relatively defenseless. Surely disposing of Xanatos would seem just as or more appealing than disposing of Iago, especially since he's not their rookery brother.
ESG
posted @ Sun, Sep 8, 2013 3:22:24 am EDT from 50.52.31.133

ESG> <<A continuous nuisance that Goliath has few positive feelings towards and has good reason to kill. But he doesn't. Contrasting the fact that the clan had no issue with killing Iago seems to me like confused morals.>>

What reasons are those? Dracon has never been much of a threat to his clan, and I think he respects that he's Elisa's responsibility. You're really comparing apples to steam engines.
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Sun, Sep 8, 2013 3:04:55 am EDT from 67.189.178.253

<<it's similar to, let's say, Hakon possessing an ax. And hey, they destroyed Hakon's spirit.>>
I'm not saying that they're inconsistent in how they treat spirits. I'm saying that how they treat spirits is inconsistent with how their values normally fall.

And yes, I misspoke when I said Dominic. I meant Tony Dracon. A continuous nuisance that Goliath has few positive feelings towards and has good reason to kill. But he doesn't. Contrasting the fact that the clan had no issue with killing Iago seems to me like confused morals.
ESG
posted @ Sun, Sep 8, 2013 2:58:49 am EDT from 50.52.31.133

It's not a logical fallacy, you're taking a gray area and looking at it in a very black and white matter. Yes, Goliath is against outright murdering people. He has also said to kill in the heat of battle is one thing. There is a difference between killing and murdering, I think.

Iago is a ghost now. Coldstone, Coldfire, and Coldsteel aren't living beings. Coldstone is steel and re-animated stone and the other two are just steel... they are more advanced, but when it comes down to it, it's similar to, let's say, Hakon possessing an ax. And hey, they destroyed Hakon's spirit.

I don't understand the reference to Dominic Dracon (not Dominique). The clan never went out of their way to save his life. The closest we've ever seen his life in danger was out on the ledge of the Apex Tower when he thought he was saving his jewels.

I don't recall Goliath being too broken up when the Archmage died. But that was heat of battle and the Archmage's own hubris.

And as for every life being precious, he didn't know about Demona and Macbeth's link or their story. He saw Macbeth taking a defeated enemy and attempting to impale her on a pipe. And, yes, earlier in City of Stone, he did briefly consider killing Demona himself. But his feelings for Demona are decidedly mixed... he's no longer in love with her, but he doesn't want her dead given their history.

No, Goliath isn't perfect. But, I once again come back to what I said earlier. I think between killing an enemy in battle and outright murdering somebody, there is a galaxy.

As for why they value Coldstone and Coldfire's souls over Coldsteel's? Why do you think?
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Sun, Sep 8, 2013 2:33:38 am EDT from 67.189.178.253

Brack> The problem with that is that any aferlife is only ever eluded to in the vaguest of ways. There's certainly no substantial evidence for such a thing in their world. And there's no reason why Iago's life should be any less precious to them than say, Dominique Dracon. Whether he died once or not is immaterial: they'd be consigning him to the selfsame fate they refuse to give their most hated enemies. It's a logical fallacy that they've failed to notice.
ESG
posted @ Sun, Sep 8, 2013 1:39:10 am EDT from 50.52.31.133

I don't think there is such a thing as "soul murder". If Iago's soul evaporated, it would have moved on. He wouldn't have died since he is technically already dead.
Brack
posted @ Sat, Sep 7, 2013 11:49:03 pm EDT from 98.87.196.87

Harlan: Sounds good!

I'm phoning this compelling new information to the Daily Tattler as we speak.
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"Begin the day with a friendly voice, a companion unobstrusive..." - Rush
posted @ Sat, Sep 7, 2013 8:40:31 pm EDT from 66.91.223.104

While I think that the moral implications of letting Iago's ghost evaporate (something which was only a lie of Puck's, anyway) most likely escaped the writers and executives during the making of "Possession" (in part, because it wasn't going to happen, or even be seriously threatened with happening), I think it would be worth submitting to "Ask Greg" when the queue opens again (and it would be nice to have more "Gargoyles"-related questions there, after a near-deluge of "Young Justice"-based questions).

It occurred to me after this morning that many animated series which do have the protagonists profess repeatedly that all life is precious and will even go out of their way to save the lives of the villains have on occasion, allowed a few one-shot villains (usually, ones with an "undead" or "from the infernal regions" quality to them, suggesting that they may not be alive as we know it) to be killed (though usually not through the heroes killing them, but through their magic backfiring on them, being exposed to daylight and vaporized in the usual "magical evil creatures can't survive the light of the sun" manner, etc.) - and without anyone shedding a tear over them.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Sat, Sep 7, 2013 6:18:18 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

TRANSITIVE PROPERTY

Iago is a pedophile.
Harlan Phoenix
The enemy is clever. We're smaller but whatever. When we put it together, I'll form the head.
posted @ Sat, Sep 7, 2013 6:11:56 pm EDT from 76.2.66.79

The Coldstone shell resembles Othello far more than either Desdemona or Iago. So even though there are tiny parts of Iago and Desdemona in there, it's entirely reasonable to conclude that Iago and Desdemona are living in Othello's reanimated stone body along with Othello's own soul.

Having Desdemona in there is weird enough, because two souls + one body = weird. But it's (mostly) Othello's body and he's cool with having her there. To him she's not an unwelcome tag-along; he would rather have her in there with him than have her soul disappear entirely. The clan probably knows he wants her in there or at least assumed it because they knew he loved her.

Iago's a different story. Othello and Iago may have been brothers but I'm guessing back in the Dark Ages their relationship was strained at best, since I'm assuming back then Othello knew Iago desired Desdemona. There are probably lines of dialog that answer this question but I haven't watched any Gargoyles episodes about the Coldtrio in quite a while so I don't recall.

But what makes it okay to "kill" Iago and not to "kill" Desdemona is quite simply the fact that it's Othello's body and he's okay with Desdemona being in there but not okay with Iago being in there. His body, his choice.

And frankly, all of them are dead anyway so you could easily make the argument that helping them pass on to the other side is acceptable. So letting Iago's soul vanish wouldn't be murder. Letting Othello and Desdemona pass to the other side is probably technically also the right thing to do but the clan's willing to make an exception for them because they like them and because they know Othello and Desdemona can peacefully coexist in one body and be productive clan members who aren't always causing trouble.

If the Coldtrio had survived the Wyvern Massacre as flesh and blood just like Goliath, Hudson, and the Trio, I don't think any of them would be all like "Oh [SPOILER] fuck [/SPOILER] Iago's alive let's kill him." In fact even though he was probably the most disliked member of the Wyvern Clan I think the initial reaction of Goliath, Hudson, and the Trio would be to not begrudge him for his survival and instead be grateful for every single clan member who survived, even someone as awful as Iago. Iago would be initially alarmed by modern-day Manhattan but since I don't think he cares about anyone except himself and Desdemona, probably a few episodes into the first season he'd have resumed his antics of trying to get Desdemona for himself so he'd end up either imprisoned by the clan or banished or killed in the heat of battle (which is different than killing in cold blood from the gargoyles' perspective). If imprisoned, he'd escape. He'd end up being a recurring villain and at first I think everyone except Othello would probably hope that someday he'd come around and be a member of the clan again, but I think gradually his total disregard for the lives of his clan mates (except Desdemona) would become apparent and they'd be totally A-Okay with killing him in the heat of battle, though I think it would take quite a long time for anyone except Othello to think it would be alright to kill him in cold blood.



I had another thought based on something I read on Ask Greg:
"Gargoyles mate in both sexual and ritualistic fashion. After that they GENERALLY (and that's the key word) remain monogamous.

They imprint upon each other biologically, and there are strong ties of custom to discourage a split. Affairs, I believe, are quite rare.

But as you noted, sometimes things don't work according to plan. Iago has clearly imprint ed on Desdemona, though she is imprint ed on Othello and he has imprint ed on her.

Goliath and Demona imprint ed upon each other, but maybe as a result of a thousand years, that imprint ing didn't last. Goliath has clearly imprint ed anew on Elisa. (BTW, I'm not sure I'm using the word imprint ing correctly. I know it's generally used for babies to imprint on their mothers. But it's the closest thing I can think of.)

So there are issues of both biology and custom that discourage anything like divorce or cheating. But that doesn't mean it NEVER happens."


Both culturally and biologically gargoyles are inclined towards monogamy.

Also, here's something else I read:

Mooncat writes...
"Can a gargoyle have physical relations with more than one other gargoyle before the " imprint " sets in? Or does the " imprint " set in during the first full physical relationship?"

Greg responds...
"Generally, the latter."

Greg has never mentioned the notion I'm about to talk about as far as I'm aware, but what if Gargoyles have a cultural norm in which a gargoyle who "mis-imprints" is considered evil? Both biologically and culturally, gargoyles value monogamy and a gargoyle who mis-imprints on another could be disruptive of the monogamy of others, and also disruptive and troublesome for clan life as a whole. What if a mis-imprinting gargoyle is viewed with all the same vitriol and hatred as most humans view pedophiles? Pedophiles, by the way, don't choose to be attracted to children--it's just how they are (although they do choose whether or not they act upon that attraction). Just an interesting thought.
Rebel - [rebelfornea at gmail dot com]
posted @ Sat, Sep 7, 2013 3:51:32 pm EDT from 174.109.65.242

Thank you Harlan, for rousing up an excellent topic of discussion.

I too hold Possession in high regard. It's not my absolute favorite, but I would perhaps put it second behind City of Stone. It's a well done episode through and through, and I've long held a fascination for concepts like possession.

While I agree that Iago is an evil character, I wouldn't put him further than Thailog or Hakon. I'd say they're on approximately even footing. And it's not like the clan treats him like he's pure evil. His interaction with them has been limited, and they've largely treated him like any other villain.

The one main difference is as you've said: the clan is willing to kill him even when he's not an immediate threat. This is not because he's more villainous, but because he is already dead to them. It's a strange moral code the gargoyles have picked up, perhaps from their religion. They believe that that which is dead has no need to remain on the earth.They might allow souls to stay if they're benevolent, but they care little if a soul passes on. At least that's how I understand it.

<<1. Without Goliath and Hudson, would the Manhattan Clan be serial killers?>>

I'm not entirely sure where the trio and Angela's morality lies. It's hard to guess, since they normally follow Goliath's commands. I imagine the Trio share roughly the same principles as Goliath, though perhaps not as vehemently. He has been quite an influence. As for Angela, she was taught by the magus, Tom and Katherine. My guess is that she thinks killing, if done at all, must be as a last resort. And I imagine she would have no trouble "killing" Iago because of similar beliefs. If there's any member of the clan who is willing to kill their enemies I'd say it's Hudson.

<<4. With Clan Building revealing that Xanatos preserved Coldsteel in a bid to steal the Stone of Destiny, does that mean that Xanatos ISN'T opposed to soul murder but only puts up a sociopathic front to get what he wants and is indifference to both the existence of souls and the implications of their existence?>>
He's probably considered such things, but since the evidence is inconclusive he still would want immortality very badly.

<<6. Isn't Iago just the worst?>>
Nope.

<<8. What's the difference between a ghost and a soul?>>
I agree with Algernon: a soul and a ghost are likely equivalent. Although there is the possibility that a "ghost" is more like a new body for a "soul."

<<Why is a soul absent of a proper body, ala Othello and Desdemona, seen as needing to be given one but ghosts, such as the Captain of the Guard, are seen as needing to pass on as their positive outcome?>>

The captain might have redeemed himself in Goliath's eyes, but he was still responsible for the deaths of his clan. Goliath may have tried to save him if he saw a way, but he also thought that passing on was a fine result as well.
ESG
posted @ Sat, Sep 7, 2013 2:46:30 pm EDT from 50.52.31.133

So after watching today's repeat of Spectacular Spider-Man's episode "Market Forces," I almost thought for a moment that I had stumbled upon another Gargoyles -- When Shocker muses that Spidey's must have "more lives than a bag of cats" my mind immediately raced back to "Monsters" (no doubt my recent viewing of the episode this summer on my S2V2 DVD kept it fresher than usual in my head). Of course, the quote from Bruno at the end of that episode was that Sevarious has "more lives than an alley cat."

So obviously this one in the end chalks up to both coincidence and, well, Jeff Bennett d:

Dead Souls and Live Souls -- I'll also ditto Algernon's thoughts about souls needing an anchor to the physical plane and the Megalith Dance playing a big factor in the Captain and Hakon's ability to stick around without a body. Plus we got this tidbit from Greg Weisman from his "Shadows of the Past" Ramble:

". . . how come we don't have ghosts hanging around ALL the time. I didn't want this episode to open a spectral floodgate, where any character that was killed or had died in the past was available to haunt us.

So the Captain offers two possible explanations: Hate and Magic. Both present in ample supply. Plus Guilt. His guilt. Unfinished business."

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=184

So yeah -- guess 'live souls' don't get that perk until they're dead. And near something magical. I guess. ;)

But Harlan's post is now making wish we got to that Dark Ages story Greg was planning on doing in the comics (the one that *needed* to be told enough that the [I]Pendragon[/] story was pushed back) . . . just to see if Iago did kick Brooklyn in the shins, lol.
Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Sat, Sep 7, 2013 2:28:43 pm EDT from 70.176.170.14

And having a better look at the below comments now, sorry for the retread.
StarCreator
posted @ Sat, Sep 7, 2013 1:02:03 pm EDT from 68.55.124.208

Thanks! Sorry, been a while since I was last here and didn't know I could put links inline. I actually meant this:

http://www.disneystore.com/animation-movies-entertainment-gargoyles-season-2-volume-2-3-disc-dvd-set/mp/1341274/1000316/

Apparently this was previously a Disney Movie Club exclusive, but was put up on the Disney store for sale to the general public last week. I had no idea of any of this until it was linked from the Gargoyles Facebook page. Feels good to finally be able to (mostly) complete my DVD collection of the series after all this time!
StarCreator
posted @ Sat, Sep 7, 2013 12:57:14 pm EDT from 68.55.124.208

Dread made it up to the "Avalon" trilogy.

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=370493&page=3
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Sat, Sep 7, 2013 12:23:16 pm EDT from 67.189.178.253

Star Creator> Welcome! Have a cookie!
Algernon
"Don't blink. Don't even blink. Blink and you're dead. They are fast. Faster than you can believe. Don't turn your back, don't look away, and DON'T blink." ~Tenth Doctor.
posted @ Sat, Sep 7, 2013 9:28:02 am EDT from 109.79.118.197

I think that the production team simply didn't think the ramifications Harlan mentioned through. How many of us thought of that before he spoke up about it?
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Sat, Sep 7, 2013 7:06:25 am EDT from 108.226.1.5

Late to the party.

And Harlan.... just wow.
Spen
posted @ Sat, Sep 7, 2013 5:05:51 am EDT from 66.43.205.118

So, I just got home and saw the linked website on my Facebook feed. Is this totally new or am I just really late to the party?
StarCreator
posted @ Sat, Sep 7, 2013 1:24:24 am EDT from 68.55.124.208

Iago stole forty cakes (or the nearest ninth century equivalent).

He stole forty cakes (or the nearest ninth century equivalent).

That's as many as four tens (of the nearest ninth century equivalent)!

And that's terrible.

(Nearest ninth century equivalent).
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"Begin the day with a friendly voice, a companion unobstrusive..." - Rush
posted @ Fri, Sep 6, 2013 10:03:08 pm EDT from 66.91.223.104

"8. What's the difference between a ghost and a soul? Why is a soul absent of a proper body, ala Othello and Desdemona, seen as needing to be given one but ghosts, such as the Captain of the Guard, are seen as needing to pass on as their positive outcome? Are ghosts DEAD SOULS? Does that mean Iago is still "alive" but the clan's mad cool with him dying because he's a douchebag and oh my god we hate him so much."

I tend to think souls and ghosts are pretty much the same thing. It's just that, in absence of a living body, the soul needs something to anchor it to the physical plane. The Captain and Hakon had the magic of the Megalith Dance (and in Hakon's case, also his axe). The Coldtrio have their robot bodies.

And yeah, [SPOILER] fuck [/SPOILER] Iago!
Algernon
"Don't blink. Don't even blink. Blink and you're dead. They are fast. Faster than you can believe. Don't turn your back, don't look away, and DON'T blink." ~Tenth Doctor.
posted @ Fri, Sep 6, 2013 9:14:51 pm EDT from 109.77.137.226

Wow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B01o2xtJwgk

Harlan wins the internet.
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Fri, Sep 6, 2013 9:06:17 pm EDT from 67.189.178.253

So I hadn't watched Possession in a few years and, upon rewatching, decided that it is the single greatest thing ever made by a human.

I don't know why I never thought of this before, but one of the great things about Iago is the fact that unlike most villains, he's probably the least sympathetic in terms of his purpose, character dynamics, and personalities. Even my two favorite villains, Thailog and Hakon, have certain factors about them that make them bad beings, but not straight out EVIL.

But everyone always seems to accept that Iago is evil. I doubt he was pleasant, but it's a bit weird that in a series full of multi-faceted characters with their own view points, goals, and etc. that there's one character we always single out as legit EVIL. Now, this isn't a bad thing: I wouldn't WANT every villain to be a highly complex, amoral antagonist. I like, and think it's true to life, when villains are sometimes just straight up evil. It also makes clear sense on some level to give Coldstone a very clear, concise battle between his wills. But otherwise, it presents an interesting context.

Everyone hates Iago.

And I don't mean dislike them or consider him an enemy. Everyone genuinely hates Iago. I dunno if I could say the same about Demona. Or even Thailog and his clones. They're more unsettled, but I'm not sure if they're HATED (especially not Delilah). It seems like villainous gargoyles are always approached with a nuanced, difficult outlook. There's an inherent bittersweetness to a gargoyle as a villain.

Except Iago.

Because [SPOILER] fuck [/SPOILER] that guy.

So I was watching Possession and Puckliath is discussing his plan to transfer Coldstone's souls to different bodies. I don't know why I never noticed this before, but when Puckliath mentions that Iago's soul will evaporate into nothing, NOBODY PROTESTS. There's no moment about the sanctity of life or the beauty of the soul and how all life must be preserved. The scheme of putting Iago into Brooklyn requires deception, and it just hit me that without Goliath and Hudson the rest of the clan found "no guys he'll totally be murdered" to be an adequate incentive to be lured into the trap.

And you know, this seems like a criticizing or poking a hole into a line I'm sure they didn't mean for anything more than setting up Iago taking Brooklyn's body. But this actually isn't a criticism. I LOVE this. It's one thing for the Manhattan Clan to be fallible by being put off by the clones. Even another thing for them to slip back into darker urges of vengeance. But I do believe it's a really human, fallible, potent thing for them to just hate someone SO MUCH that they have long since decided he has no real value to anyone and the world just might be better off without him. It brings up an intriguing discussion on the characterization of Iago, perhaps one of the most elegantly simple yet brilliant characters in the series. He is, according to LITERALLY EVERYONE, genuinely evil. Not even Demona or Thailog seem to get that distinction.

That being said,

DISCUSSION POINTS

1. Without Goliath and Hudson, would the Manhattan Clan be serial killers?
2. Is there an intended scene in Dark Ages where Iago steals food from under everyone's noses during dinner because his smelled weird so he wanted someone (read: everyone) else's?
3. With Xanatos providing Desdemona and Iago with bodies, does this mean Xanatos is the only one in the episode we can objectively argue is against the murder of souls?
4. With Clan Building revealing that Xanatos preserved Coldsteel in a bid to steal the Stone of Destiny, does that mean that Xanatos ISN'T opposed to soul murder but only puts up a sociopathic front to get what he wants and is indifference to both the existence of souls and the implications of their existence?
5. Is a soul magical? If a soul isn't magical, do beings made of magic and not of organic matter possess a soul? Are Children of Oberon PURE SOULS or are they actually soulless, perhaps lending to why they can shift their appearances and perhaps even identities? Is Owen GENUINELY a soulless servant?
6. Isn't Iago just the worst?
7. Did a soul kick Brooklyn on the shins when he was 12?
8. What's the difference between a ghost and a soul? Why is a soul absent of a proper body, ala Othello and Desdemona, seen as needing to be given one but ghosts, such as the Captain of the Guard, are seen as needing to pass on as their positive outcome? Are ghosts DEAD SOULS? Does that mean Iago is still "alive" but the clan's mad cool with him dying because he's a douchebag and oh my god we hate him so much.
9. If ghosts and souls are treated differently, SEEN as fundamentally different things, as seen in these various episodes, does a dying soul become a ghost if all a soul has to go on is its own strength? Would Iago have haunted the Clock Tower upon his dead because that would be awesome?
10. Iago is a nerd.

I am interested in delving into all of these points.
Harlan Phoenix
The enemy is clever. We're smaller but whatever. When we put it together, I'll form the head.
posted @ Fri, Sep 6, 2013 9:00:24 pm EDT from 76.2.66.79

I think the main thing throwing suspicion off X would be the fact that he's the one who donated the Eye in the first place. Why do that if he was just going to steal it back the next night?
Algernon
"Don't blink. Don't even blink. Blink and you're dead. They are fast. Faster than you can believe. Don't turn your back, don't look away, and DON'T blink." ~Tenth Doctor.
posted @ Fri, Sep 6, 2013 8:14:32 pm EDT from 109.77.137.226

ESG> No, it really wouldn't.
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Fri, Sep 6, 2013 7:49:02 pm EDT from 67.189.178.253

<<Do you have any idea just how common copies of famous jewels are sold?>>

I will not pretend to be familiar with the intricacies of the jewelery business. I was aware that people sold replicas of famous jewels, but I didn't think the practice was so widespread as to be applicable to any famous gem. I suppose I'll have to do research on that later but for now I'll take your word for it.

In any case, I figured they could get away with it based on what Weisman said. But the fact that The Eye of Odin was
-Recently in Xanatos' possession
-Recently stolen in an unsolved case
-is completely identical to the "copy" that Fox would be wearing
would be enough to make some people suspicious about it.
ESG
posted @ Fri, Sep 6, 2013 7:46:54 pm EDT from 50.52.31.133

<< I imagine people would still be suspicious about the eye...but saying that it's a copy is a plausible-enough excuse...>>

Speaking as someone whose parents worked in the jewelry business, it's more than plausible. My father had a booth in the diamond exchange. Do you have any idea just how common copies of famous jewels are sold?
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Fri, Sep 6, 2013 5:56:48 pm EDT from 67.189.178.253

Since there are about three near identical gargoyles wearing the same kind of chest plate, I would guess they are, while not commOn, not unusual.
Brack
posted @ Fri, Sep 6, 2013 5:51:33 pm EDT from 98.87.196.87

Iago wore more armor, too.

http://gargwiki.net/images/1/13/Iago.JPG
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Fri, Sep 6, 2013 5:51:07 pm EDT from 67.189.178.253

Paul> Thank you, that's really nice to hear!
Melissa
Melissa - http://ramblingsofpicturebox.blogspot.com/
posted @ Fri, Sep 6, 2013 5:28:51 pm EDT from 184.6.105.167

Ah, yes I stand corrected. Still curious about Othello though: unlike Demona's second, there's not much practical application for his clothing...
ESG
posted @ Fri, Sep 6, 2013 5:11:41 pm EDT from 50.52.31.133

ESG> Not Demona, Demona's Second - circa 11th century Scotland.

http://gargwiki.net/Demona%27s_Second
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Fri, Sep 6, 2013 5:05:02 pm EDT from 174.101.230.22

Comet> Does she even wear that in canon? I only recall seeing it in "Future Tense," but I could be forgetting something. In any case it's not part of her usual fare, and Othello has the further distinction of having his piece over 1000 years ago.
ESG
posted @ Fri, Sep 6, 2013 4:55:35 pm EDT from 50.52.31.133

ESG> "Has he ever mentioned anything about Othello's shirt piece? He's the only gargoyle that wears something besides loin and chest cloths."

Not sure if you consider Demona's Second's metal chest plate to be a "cloth" here.
Comet
Double, double, toil and trouble. Fire burn and cauldron bubble.
posted @ Fri, Sep 6, 2013 4:39:09 pm EDT from 80.187.101.174

It continues to surprise, the length and width of questions Greg's answered. I imagine people would still be suspicious about the eye...but saying that it's a copy is a plausible-enough excuse...

Has he ever mentioned anything about Othello's shirt piece? He's the only gargoyle that wears something besides loin and chest cloths. How and why did he get it? Red is a rather regal color, not that easy to come by in the Dark Ages. One would assume he got it from the humans, but why him? He wasn't even very chummy with humans from what we know...
ESG
posted @ Fri, Sep 6, 2013 4:19:59 pm EDT from 50.52.31.133

Melissa: Glad to hear that you're still reviewing Gargoyles episodes. Take as long as you need; I always enjoy reading your thoughts about the series and the episodes.
Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Sep 6, 2013 4:12:08 pm EDT from 24.14.51.43

There's a great nostalgic article on the D23 website today about the Disney Afternoon. I don't know if the link below will work because the article is marked "members only", but here's a pertinent excerpt:

"One particularly popular original program from the later years of The Disney Afternoon was Gargoyles, which ran for three seasons from 1994-97. A darker and more mature offering than other Disney shows, Gargoyles included deeper plots and a more involved continuity arc than typical afternoon programs. The show's lore focused on creatures called gargoyles, which had been frozen in stone in medieval Scotland only to be revived in modern day Manhattan. Awaking at night, they combat human and supernatural threats while exploring a number of mythical and legendary themes. The show, although long since cancelled, has grown a sizeable cult fan base over the years and remains a favorite today.

(There's a picture here of Hudson looking fierce.)

The shows of The Disney Afternoon proved a huge success, and spawned a number of further adventures in the pages of comic books, Disney Adventures magazine, and a variety of computer and video games. Over the years several comic lines have been published based on DuckTales, Chip 'n Dale's Rescue Rangers, TaleSpin, Gargoyles, and more. The video games proved so popular that Capcom's 1989 release of DuckTales for the Nintendo Entertainment System has been completely remade as DuckTales: Remastered for release this year on a number of platforms."

Nice to get some recognition from "The Official Disney Fan Club."
Phil - [p1anderson at yahoo dot com]
A darker and more mature offering than other Disney shows, Gargoyles included deeper plots and a more involved continuity arc than typical afternoon programs.
posted @ Fri, Sep 6, 2013 9:29:34 am EDT from 50.192.123.173

I suspect that, by 2198, there'd most likely be Quarrymen propaganda pieces (though most of the public would probably ignore them until after the Space-Spawn invasion) claiming that the accounts of gargoyle massacres and persecutions over the centuries were exaggerated (or even manufactured) by the gargoyles (and the humans who side with them) in order to gain sympathy for themselves.

If the "Goliath Chronicles" *did* exist in 2198 in the manner people here have been suggesting, I can imagine Castaway's descendants (who, based on hints from Greg Weisman, would be continuing his cause) trying to sue its makers for libel against their ancestor. (Now there's a conflict where we'd want to see both sides lose!)
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Fri, Sep 6, 2013 6:47:49 am EDT from 108.226.1.5

I finished my rewatch of "Leader of the Pack." I'm not being glib or ironic when I say I found Xanatos' ridiculous, expensive, convoluted, illegal, violent plot to get Fox released from prison genuinely romantic.
Melissa
Melissa - http://ramblingsofpicturebox.blogspot.com/
posted @ Fri, Sep 6, 2013 12:44:43 am EDT from 184.6.105.167

ESG> It'd be worth it just to see Brooklyn's reaction when he Timedances to 2198 and catches a rerun of Runaways or something.
Algernon
"Don't blink. Don't even blink. Blink and you're dead. They are fast. Faster than you can believe. Don't turn your back, don't look away, and DON'T blink." ~Tenth Doctor.
posted @ Thu, Sep 5, 2013 10:37:46 pm EDT from 109.77.137.226

The Goliath Chronicles doesn't even deserve to be a second rate show in the Gargoyles World.
ESG
posted @ Thu, Sep 5, 2013 10:23:19 pm EDT from 50.52.5.177

Algernon> That is the only TV Tropes theory that I've ever liked.

However, I'm now sad that it probably won't happen because I think the executive commissioning that fake show would be a genuinely interesting character and could probably fit in Gargoyles really well.
Harlan Phoenix
The enemy is clever. We're smaller but whatever. When we put it together, I'll form the head.
posted @ Thu, Sep 5, 2013 9:30:56 pm EDT from 24.210.68.171

TODD> You know, there's a fun WMG on TV Tropes that TGC is actually a show within a show. Created sometime around the 2198 era as a heavy handed anti-racism Aesop and based very, VERY loosely on historical events.
Algernon
"Don't blink. Don't even blink. Blink and you're dead. They are fast. Faster than you can believe. Don't turn your back, don't look away, and DON'T blink." ~Tenth Doctor.
posted @ Thu, Sep 5, 2013 8:23:55 pm EDT from 109.77.137.226

My post earlier this week on the Captain of the Guard and "The Goliath Chronicles" was inspired by a comment I recall someone making a while ago that the new production team seemed to be making the series into a morality play about the evils of racism and bigotry rather into the richly characterized story it had originally been. As others pointed out, the pro-gargoyle humans were always portrayed as virtuous and the anti-gargoyle humans as straight-out evil; that certainly showed itself in the depiction of the Quarrymen. I remember Bishansky suggesting the prospects of a pro-gargoyle faction that would display a lot of violence and ruthlessness (presumably as in things like threatening Margot Yale after she announces on "Nightwatch" that the gargoyles should be caged like wild animals); I doubt that such a concept would ever have been accepted by the "Goliath Chronicles" production team, since it would make humans who'd rejected racism and bigotry look bad. (Could that have been one reason why it jumped to the conclusion that Xanatos and Fox had reformed all the way?) So I could equally see them not wanting to ever mention (and indeed they didn't) that the Wyvern Massacre came about because of an act of treachery by a pro-gargoyle human - and whose act was motivated by his being pro-gargoyle. They'd be afraid that it would undermine the message.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Thu, Sep 5, 2013 7:28:09 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

ESG> The Xs do like to live dangerously. Besides, everyone knows those awful gargoyles stole the Eye. ;)
Algernon
"Don't blink. Don't even blink. Blink and you're dead. They are fast. Faster than you can believe. Don't turn your back, don't look away, and DON'T blink." ~Tenth Doctor.
posted @ Thu, Sep 5, 2013 4:11:10 pm EDT from 109.79.185.71

ESG> Here.

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=3360
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Thu, Sep 5, 2013 3:44:17 pm EDT from 67.189.178.253

It occurs to me that giving Fox the Eye of Odin was one of the most foolish things Xanatos ever did. And I'm not even holding it against him much for giving her an item that was rumored to be magic. After all rumors are often just rumors; the chances that The Eye was both magical and detrimental to Fox were extremely low. No, the ridiculous part is that Xanatos gave his wife an engagement present that she can't wear in public without getting arrested.
ESG
posted @ Thu, Sep 5, 2013 3:41:06 pm EDT from 50.52.5.177

Greg Weisman, if the name didn't make it obvious enough, is Jewish.

But given your screenname, I kinda doubt this question was asked sincerely.
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"Begin the day with a friendly voice, a companion unobstrusive..." - Rush
posted @ Thu, Sep 5, 2013 3:25:38 pm EDT from 66.91.223.104

Is Greg Muslim?
niggerboy - [niggerboy at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Thu, Sep 5, 2013 2:08:09 pm EDT from 94.192.100.124

Quite a guy. Thanks, Todd.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" - Sevarius, "Louse"
posted @ Thu, Sep 5, 2013 12:18:29 pm EDT from 99.92.109.252

A few weeks ago, I spotted an entry for August 15 in "Ward's Book of Days" on Macbeth. Here's another entry, this one for today, also linked to "Gargoyles":

http://www.wardsbookofdays.com/5september.htm
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Thu, Sep 5, 2013 6:38:08 am EDT from 108.226.1.5

Matt: Oberon outright stated that he'd remove the gag when he heard "humility in her silent plea." I kinda doubt Greg and Co. would write in that line without eventually providing some level of payoff.

Your scenario is a possibility, certainly. But I think it's a lot more likely that earning the chance to lose the gag will be part of Banshee's natural character development.
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"Begin the day with a friendly voice, a companion unobstrusive..." - Rush
posted @ Thu, Sep 5, 2013 2:10:32 am EDT from 66.91.223.104

I have a hunch that Mab removes Oberon's gag on Banshee in return for her loyalty. Who else is powerful enough to do it?

After the war, I'll bet Oberon will remove Banshee's powers altogether and banish her from Avalon (ala Puck). Maybe that is where the "Heroes Of Ulster" spinoff starts.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" - Sevarius, "Louse"
posted @ Thu, Sep 5, 2013 12:42:08 am EDT from 99.92.109.252

Todd> That's the one. Yeah, I realize that Aillen mac Midhna is his actual real proper name but "The Goblin of Tara" is what the first version of the story I read as a kid called him and it just stuck with me, I guess.

And I'm glad you recognize all those, Todd. It's nice to have someone to potentially wrap with on all things Irish Mythology related since it's not really as well known as the "Big Three" of Greek, Norse and Egyptian.

One potential Irish Oberati, besides Banshee, who I think would most likely be touched on is Lugh given that in the original myths, he's Cu's dad. I could actually see a kind of a Jor-El/Pa Kent dichotomy in how Rory deals with two radically different father figures.
Algernon
"Don't blink. Don't even blink. Blink and you're dead. They are fast. Faster than you can believe. Don't turn your back, don't look away, and DON'T blink." ~Tenth Doctor.
posted @ Wed, Sep 4, 2013 9:56:59 pm EDT from 109.79.185.71

Todd Jensen> I'd argue that with Timedancer, we also get the continuation of Mary & Finella's story from Avalon Part One, Brooklyn having to get along with a 997 AD Demona despite his feelings towards her and getting to see more of the events inbetween 994 & 1994.
Antiyonder
posted @ Wed, Sep 4, 2013 7:04:01 pm EDT from 68.113.7.254

ALGERNON - I recognized the other names on your list of possible Irish mythological elements in "Heroes of Ulster", but what's the Goblin of Tara? I don't recall him (unless you mean Aillen mac Midhna in the stories of Finn mac Cool, who used to magically send everyone in Tara to sleep and then burn the place down each Halloween, until Finn slew him).

ANTIYONDER - And in the "Clan-Building" stories, the first one involved both Goliath and Elisa's break-up and unsuccessful Double Date and Thailog wanting the Clones back, and the Stone of Destiny story had Xanatos trying to steal the Stone on the instructions of the Illuminati, Hudson and Lexington meeting the London clan (with Lexington making friends with Staghart), and the return of the ColdTrio. (I can't see as much with the TimeDancer story - maybe the combination of Brooklyn stuck in the past and wanting to get home with the war between Constantine and the Grim - including Constantine becoming a proto-Hunter.)
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Wed, Sep 4, 2013 6:31:14 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

I imagine "Heroes of Ulster" in particular would have delved into the Irish and Celtic mythology angle a lot. Being both an Mythology geek and an Irishmen, I can attest that there's a whole treasure trove of stuff that can be delved into there, Third Race wise. Lugh, The Fomorians, the Tuatha de Danaan, The Morrigan, the Eye of Balor, the Goblin of Tara, the list goes on.

Plus there's also Timedancer to consider. Brooklyn bouncing back and forth through time and space lends itself very well to him getting wrapped up in all kinds of mythological shenanigans.
Algernon
"Don't blink. Don't even blink. Blink and you're dead. They are fast. Faster than you can believe. Don't turn your back, don't look away, and DON'T blink." ~Tenth Doctor.
posted @ Wed, Sep 4, 2013 4:41:54 pm EDT from 109.76.228.201

On the topic of "If 'Gargoyles' had been an 80's Cartoon" and how TGC basically is the closest example we get, it's often been discussed how Xanatos was stripped of moral ambiguity.

Well, looking at how Xanatos would be if he hadn't "reformed" (though it would be accurate for him in TGC continuity) in For it May Come True, I get the feeling that if TGC really acknowledged his "villainous past" he'd be painted as a world conquering baddie who would eagerly kill the gargoyles in their sleep.

Slightly unrelated, but I edited the page of Generations to note how it tends to share a similarity to The Reckoning, and then it just occurred to me of another difference between the canon and TGC. Granted it's been touched upon regarding how The Quarrymen wouldn't be the sole focus of later stories. And that's just it. As Gargoyles developed, there tended to be focus on more than one story even in single episodes.

Looking at Generations, what's the story about? Demona trying to manipulate Angela, while Angela herself tries to get through to her mother.

The Reckoning, does the same, but better (partially because it's not a redux). Though it also manages to focus on further Thailog's character, introduces the other cloned gargoyles and has another fight between Talon & Fang.

Or looking at something different like Possession, the big focus is on Coldstone's body finally being freed from the other personalities within. Though it also has Alexander getting his first lesson regarding the use of his powers, and sets up the Broadway/Angela relationship.
Antiyonder
posted @ Wed, Sep 4, 2013 4:38:39 pm EDT from 68.113.7.254

Plus Greg has a spin-off centered around Rory and Molly in his Master Plan, "Heroes of Ulster". Indicating that Banshee gets off Avalon, at some point.

But yeah, Mab is the big story on the horizon. I hope we some day get to see it.
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Wed, Sep 4, 2013 1:45:19 pm EDT from 67.189.178.253

Plus he talked about a story where Raven kidnaps Alexander, which would suggest that the third race aren't confined to the island all the time. They are very good at bending rules.
Brack
posted @ Wed, Sep 4, 2013 9:47:43 am EDT from 174.237.41.183

Greg's indicated that at some future point, Oberon's mother and predecessor, Queen Mab, would appear (Oberon had overthrown and apparently imprisoned her in the distant past, but she'd evidently escape), which would probably trigger some sort of big war between Oberon and Mab. He's not telling us much, though, in case he gets to do more "Gargoyles" stories.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Wed, Sep 4, 2013 6:41:26 am EDT from 108.226.1.5

What do you think Greg's plans for the Third Race were? He said that the gathering would still be going on Avalon by 2198. But the Third Race was one of the best parts of the show, and certainly the most dynamic. It seems like a very questionable decision, leaving none of them but Puck and Alexander to fill 200 years of stories.
ESG
posted @ Wed, Sep 4, 2013 1:42:45 am EDT from 50.52.13.141

You have a point. The Mazas were hardly a threat and the odds were pretty good Xanatos could beat Bronx: he probably saw no need to bring Coyote into the fight. It's sort of ironic: had the rest of the gargoyles been there he probably would have succeeded, since he wouldn't have underestimated them.
ESG
posted @ Tue, Sep 3, 2013 9:27:43 pm EDT from 50.52.21.71

His objective was to capture the Kachina Coyote... the Kachina Coyote is a member of the Third Race. They have magical powers. It's not like capturing a human being or even a gargoyle. Now, he could have done one of two things, used the Coyote robot to help him keep an eye on the bait, or to be hidden off to the side to catch the Kachina Coyote if he showed up.

If the Coyote robot was watching the Mazas and the gargoyles, who was watching for the Kachina Coyote? This thing is a trickster... not to mention Xanatos has no way of knowing the trickster even gives a damn about Peter Maza. He knows it cares about the soil carving, that's all he knows. At this point, he didn't even know they were vulnerable to iron, he believed the magic in the Cauldron of Life used to create the new robot was what he needed.

And this plan did not have the gargoyles in mind. He didn't know Goliath was going on a World Tour. He didn't know about Avalon. Sure he knew Goliath showed up in Loch Ness and Australia, but he had no way of knowing how or why. What should he have done? He doesn't have access to the script. He's not watching the show on TV like we are.

I think he handled the situation as best he could given the gargoyles were wild cards.
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Tue, Sep 3, 2013 7:44:35 pm EDT from 67.189.178.253

ESG> Xanatos is genre savvy. Obviously he knows Goliath is the protagonist and all the interesting stuff will gravitate towards him. ;)

Seriously, knowing how crazy prepared X usually is, it's not unreasonable to think he'd have accounted for the possibility of either G finding Coyote of Coyote finding G.

But I suspect you may be looking at it the wrong way, capturing Goliath and Angela was only ever supposed to draw the Kachina Coyote out, and it worked. Once that was accomplished there really was no reason for Xanatos to care whether they escaped or not.
Algernon
"Don't blink. Don't even blink. Blink and you're dead. They are fast. Faster than you can believe. Don't turn your back, don't look away, and DON'T blink." ~Tenth Doctor.
posted @ Tue, Sep 3, 2013 7:32:49 pm EDT from 109.78.136.105

I don't know if anyone here remembers Greg Bishansky's "If 'Gargoyles' had been an 80's Cartoon", but I thought of another possible item for it (after checking at his blog to make certain it hadn't been included:

Castle Wyvern would have been betrayed to the Vikings by the Magus as a way to get rid of the gargoyles, rather than by the Captain of the Guard on behalf of the gargoyles.

(I suspect, for that matter, that if the "Goliath Chronicles" had ever looked back to the Wyvern Massacre, it would have done its best to avoid admitting that a pro-gargoyle human played a major role in betraying the castle - and I thought of that in a "Goliath Chronicles" context first, but then thought it also fitted Bishansky's "what if" idea.)
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Tue, Sep 3, 2013 7:28:02 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

>Greg Bishansky

Perhaps, but how in the world was Xanatos supposed to know that?
ESG
posted @ Tue, Sep 3, 2013 7:14:25 pm EDT from 50.52.21.71

Their escape also led him to the Kachina Coyote. It was unlikely he was going to catch him otherwise.
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Tue, Sep 3, 2013 5:00:43 pm EDT from 67.189.178.253

>Brainiac
The issue wasn't that the Gargoyles escaped, the issue was that their escape led to the foiling of Xanatos plan.
ESG
posted @ Tue, Sep 3, 2013 4:50:36 pm EDT from 50.52.21.71

ESG> You're assuming Xanatos CARED if the gargoyles were rescued. The purpose was always to draw Coyote the Kachina out. Whether Goliath and Angela remained trapped or not was irrelevant - the acid would still get dropped onto the soil carving even if they were rescued. Xanatos's own weapon was the only reason the acid was reduced to mere drops.

Basically, Goliath and Angela were simply being held for Xanatos's "first real stab at clichéd villainy." And since one of the required end results of clichéd villainy is the heroes escaping, who says that wasn't part of the plan from the start? Don't forget that grin Xanatos had after everyone ran off...
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Tue, Sep 3, 2013 4:38:52 pm EDT from 137.183.232.27

Brainiac>
True, but I think the heightened probability and eventual reality of the Gargoyles escape trumps the few second head start that Coyote's absence provides. And if he didn't want to tie Coyote's hands when the vat fell he could have just used knockout gas on his hostages for assurance (Coyote has been shown to be outfitted with that in the past). Not that it's a huge oversight: Xanatos rarely makes big mistakes. I would call it a small mistake though, and in the grand scheme of things it probably cost him a lot.
ESG
posted @ Tue, Sep 3, 2013 4:25:57 pm EDT from 50.52.21.71

ESG> Coyote 4.0 was never there to deal with the Mazas or the gargoyles; it was there to catch a certain Kachina. Dealing with Bronx and the Mazas might have distracted Coyote from that intended purpose; as it was, even having the robot ready to strike at a moment's notice wasn't enough to capture the target immediately.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Tue, Sep 3, 2013 3:43:54 pm EDT from 137.183.232.27

Rewatched the show recently, and a thought occurred to me.

Given some comments in regards to Demona being her own worst enemy, I wonder if she felt some pleasure attacking her younger self.

Or would that feeling require her to be aware that she caused her own problems?
Antiyonder
posted @ Tue, Sep 3, 2013 1:14:45 pm EDT from 192.182.145.138

Did anyone else notice, during the scene in "Cloud Fathers" where Bronx and the Mazas rescue Goliath and Angela, Coyote 4.0 doesn't do anything. Good thing it didn't: those four were lucky to escape just Xanatos. It seems an oversight on Xanatos' part. If you watch the scene to the end, it turns out that Coyote 4.0 was just waiting on the roof, presumably keeping watch. But you'd think Xanatos could have called it in for all of 5 seconds...
ESG
posted @ Tue, Sep 3, 2013 1:04:47 pm EDT from 50.52.21.71

"The Daily Tattler" doesn't sound much different to me than "The National Enquirer." Both suggest discomfort to me; I think of inquiring as asking uncomfortable questions, and tattling as revealing uncomfortable information.
Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Sep 2, 2013 9:57:00 pm EDT from 24.14.51.43

"Best investigative reporting on the planet. But go ahead, read the New York Times if you want. They get lucky sometimes." ~Agent Kay
Algernon
"Don't blink. Don't even blink. Blink and you're dead. They are fast. Faster than you can believe. Don't turn your back, don't look away, and DON'T blink." ~Tenth Doctor.
posted @ Mon, Sep 2, 2013 8:32:57 pm EDT from 93.107.19.99

Tattlers aren't incorrect. Tattling is telling on someone when it's considered socially unacceptable. So the tattler tells you the things THE MAN doesn't want you to know.

Like gargoyles.
Harlan Phoenix
The enemy is clever. We're smaller but whatever. When we put it together, I'll form the head.
posted @ Mon, Sep 2, 2013 8:25:05 pm EDT from 76.2.66.79

<Todd Jensen

Of course it was designed as a seedy tabloid OUT of universe. I'm wondering why in the world a newspaper would call itself that IN universe.
ESG
posted @ Mon, Sep 2, 2013 8:11:55 pm EDT from 50.52.21.71

ALGERNON - Well, I was thinking more that the mercenaries Banquo and Fleance don't seem to have the kind of presence, in their role as henchmen-types to more important antagonists (first Macbeth, then Castaway), to suit them for major characters - though, to be fair about it, Elisa's been cast as a character who appears in just one scene in the play.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Mon, Sep 2, 2013 7:32:46 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

BISHANSKY - Shades of the scene near the start of "City of Stone Part Four" where Demona, in her excitement at reporting how the latest battle with the English went, is actually lifting Macbeth off the ground?

And, yes, Demona would be burying any such enjoyment with almost an equal level of violence that she buries any admission that she's partly responsible for the Wyvern Massacre.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Mon, Sep 2, 2013 7:30:50 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

TODD> I wondered whether Macbeth's former henchmen, Banquo and Fleance, might play their Shakespearean namesakes, but wasn't sure that they'd be suited to the characters - at least, not Banquo the mercenary to the Banquo of Shakespeare."

Perhaps but one could make the same argument regardig Macbeth himself.
Algernon
"Don't blink. Don't even blink. Blink and you're dead. They are fast. Faster than you can believe. Don't turn your back, don't look away, and DON'T blink." ~Tenth Doctor.
posted @ Mon, Sep 2, 2013 7:28:24 pm EDT from 93.107.19.99

TODD> <<For that matter, I've read that many productions of "Macbeth" give a strong sexual chemistry between Macbeth and Lady Macbeth as they're plotting Duncan's murder; imagine if this one followed suit, and what Demona's response to that would be!>>

Oh, she'd be full of revulsion... most likely because she would actually have liked it.
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Mon, Sep 2, 2013 7:26:02 pm EDT from 67.189.178.253

The Daily Tattler was clearly designed as being a tabloid (from the production team's point of view), with the name given to indicate that.

(Though these days, supermarket tabloids seem to give far more attention to celebrity gossip than to UFOs, Bigfoot, and the rest - sigh.)
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Mon, Sep 2, 2013 7:19:24 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

ALGERNON - We'll probably never know. Good question, though.

I've had a few more thoughts about the "Weird Macbeth" story. I couldn't resist looking over the "dramatis personae" of "Macbeth" to imagine who'd be playing who, though most of the major roles have already been cast in Greg Weisman's report - Macbeth as his namesake, Demona as Lady Macbeth, Goliath as Macduff, Elisa as Lady Macduff, and probably Hudson as Duncan. If the Weird Sisters are indeed behind the spell trapping everyone in the play, they're doubtless playing the Three Witches. Most of the remaining characters are minor figures whose role is largely to make little expositionary speeches, deliver news, etc.

I wondered whether Macbeth's former henchmen, Banquo and Fleance, might play their Shakespearean namesakes, but wasn't sure that they'd be suited to the characters - at least, not Banquo the mercenary to the Banquo of Shakespeare. They might, on the other hand, be well cast as the Murderers whom Macbeth hires to murder Banquo and Fleance - and it would make a great piece of ironic casting. (Who'd play the Third Murderer is anyone's guess.)

I speculated, also, that Dr. Sato might play the physician who's attending on Lady Macbeth during the sleepwalking scene.

I mentioned last week, as well, the question over who'd be playing "Young Macduff" (Macduff and Lady Macduff's son) in light of the identity of who's playing his parents.

I remember Bishansky speculating that Castaway might play Malcolm (though obviously not in the initial idea for the episode's location, which would have been somewhere between "The Gathering" and "Hunter's Moon"). Given that Malcolm and Macduff team up so closely in the play, think of Castaway's response at finding himself a close ally to Goliath when the spell dissolves!

For that matter, I've read that many productions of "Macbeth" give a strong sexual chemistry between Macbeth and Lady Macbeth as they're plotting Duncan's murder; imagine if this one followed suit, and what Demona's response to that would be!
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Mon, Sep 2, 2013 7:15:53 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

I imagine that many tribes would take it for granted, perhaps as a gift from their god. Some gargoyles might be frightened and decide to sleep in the nude, which was probably done often back then anyway: replacing cloths every day is impractical.

What I'm personally wondering at the moment is, why would anyone call their newspaper "The Daily Tattler?"
ESG
posted @ Mon, Sep 2, 2013 7:07:30 pm EDT from 50.52.21.71

David Tennant!

TODD> I've often wondered what gargoyles living in parts of the world with no contact with the Roman Empire made of their clothing suddenly turning to stone with them.
Algernon
"Don't blink. Don't even blink. Blink and you're dead. They are fast. Faster than you can believe. Don't turn your back, don't look away, and DON'T blink." ~Tenth Doctor.
posted @ Mon, Sep 2, 2013 7:00:46 pm EDT from 93.107.19.99

Tenth.
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Mon, Sep 2, 2013 6:59:50 pm EDT from 67.189.178.253

ESG - It's one of those customs that's gone on for so long that everyone's probably forgotten why they do it, but do it anyway because it's been done for so long.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Mon, Sep 2, 2013 6:53:44 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

Ninth!
(what's the reason for the count anywyay?)
ESG
posted @ Mon, Sep 2, 2013 6:50:29 pm EDT from 50.52.21.71

Let's keep it at ten, please. It takes long enough, many weeks, to reach that number.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Mon, Sep 2, 2013 6:46:51 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

Eighth in the name of the Mares of Diomedes!

By the way, could the count go up to twelve this week?
Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Sep 2, 2013 4:24:58 pm EDT from 24.14.51.43

Septimus!!!
Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
If you are on the wrong road, progress means.. walking back to the right road; ..the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive man~~C.S. Lewis
posted @ Mon, Sep 2, 2013 12:40:00 pm EDT from 24.217.38.192

Sixth!
Ross
posted @ Mon, Sep 2, 2013 12:20:06 pm EDT from 184.9.229.151

Fifth.

Besides being Labor Day this year, September 2 is also the anniversary of the Battle of Actium in 31 B.C., when Caesar Augustus defeated Mark Antony and Cleopatra, thereby ensuring that he, rather than they, would be the ruler of the soon-to-be Roman Empire and the Mediterranean world. It's significant to the Gargoyles Universe because it's another example (if more subtle than the wars over the succession to the Scottish throne between 971 and 1057) of how human affairs can affect gargoyles. I can't imagine Antony and Cleopatra being as disturbed about gargoyles awakening from their stone sleep without clothing as Augustus was - certainly not disturbed enough to get the Roman Magus to cast the Humility Spell over the entire species.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Mon, Sep 2, 2013 6:35:28 am EDT from 108.226.1.5

Fourth!
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"Begin the day with a friendly voice, a companion unobstrusive..." - Rush
posted @ Mon, Sep 2, 2013 4:50:50 am EDT from 66.91.223.104

Third.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
I did it! I watched all 485 Best picture nominees in 365 days!
posted @ Mon, Sep 2, 2013 2:46:47 am EDT from 75.159.21.195

SECOND for officially registering for next year's CONVergence and my second Gathering :D

And yep, enjoying the three-day weekend d:
Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Mon, Sep 2, 2013 12:16:41 am EDT from 70.176.170.14

I'd like to be the first to wish everyone a Happy Labor Day.

So I will be. Enjoy the day (even if it's not a holiday for you).
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Mon, Sep 2, 2013 12:15:39 am EDT from 174.101.230.22