I watched the last five episodes of "Young Justice: Invasion" on DVD. A brief report.

[SPOILER] I was wondering whether the Reach would run into some PR trouble after bringing their warships out of hiding to fight Warworld, and I was right. I got a kick out of seeing old G. Gordon hammer them with the same enthusiasm that he'd hammered the Justice League earlier.

Got another kick out of Arsenal's plan - the first person to release isn't one of the Team, but Mongul, so that he can go after Black Beetle and keep him occupied.

Toyman indignant that, while on the rampage in Metropolis, he gets foiled, not by Superman, but by Blue Beetle (and he's certainly got a point). Not to mention Blue Beetle's annoyance that, on top of working for the Reach now, he's being made to act in an "over-the-top" way in accepting the cheers of the crowd.

The big meeting between the Light and the Reach in "Summit" was one of my favorite moments. So many twists and turns - like Deathstroke being really Ms. Martian in disguise, who only pretends to do in Aqualad and Artemis. Half of Ras al-Ghul's assassins being really members of the team in disguise. Vandal Savage still turning the meeting to his advantage by getting control of the Warworld (with a surprise assist from Klarion).

(For that matter, I also got a big surprise - in a good way - in "Intervention" when that lizard in the Bialyan desert turned out to be more than "local color".)

I also felt a bit sorry for Black Manta during it; yes, he's a super-villain and member of the Light, but the devastated look on his face at discovering that his own son had turned on him almost made me forget that.

And "Endgame" made a fine end - two Scarabs destroyed (in an unsettling way), Superboy and Ms. Martian doing a good job of explaining to a corrupt alien law court why it should do the right thing, and a big round-the-world battle against the Reach's agents - including Wally's heroic sacrifice at the end. (I knew about that last one already - not that good at avoiding big spoilers, I'm afraid - but still thought it was well-handled.)

The ending left me with mixed feelings about this being the very last "Young Justice" episode. On the one hand, we see Vandal Savage coming to Apokolips to team up with Darkseid - just imagine what that would have meant for Season Three, if there'd been one! (And did I glimpse G. Gordon there? Guess there's more to him than an opinionated television news commentator.) On the other hand, it felt like a good wrap-up for the series, with the Team now floating down to greet the returning Justice League members as an echo of the ending of the opening two-parter back at the start of Season One, the Team now being headquartered at the Watchtower in recognition of their acts, and Nightwing deciding to take a leave for absence with one of his two fellow founding-members now dead. [/SPOILER]

Good ending to the series. Take a bow, Greg Weisman. And now I'm looking forward to the publication of "Rain of the Ghosts" in less than three months' time.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Sun, Sep 15, 2013 4:38:04 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

Dang, I finally get regular internet again and Greg B. takes a hiatus? That makes things much less entertaining around here. Have a good one, Greg.
Spen
posted @ Sun, Sep 15, 2013 1:53:36 pm EDT from 50.81.121.20

Checking in,

ESG> Okay, it's cool.

Algernon> You're a decent bloke. Never let anyone say different.
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Sat, Sep 14, 2013 5:25:55 pm EDT from 67.189.178.253

I also want to apologize to Greg B. for being somewhat tactless with the ALLCAPS there. I certainly wasn't helping the situation by contributing more negativity and hostility to the atmosphere.
Algernon
"Don't blink. Don't even blink. Blink and you're dead. They are fast. Faster than you can believe. Don't turn your back, don't look away, and DON'T blink." ~Tenth Doctor.
posted @ Sat, Sep 14, 2013 5:06:06 pm EDT from 109.78.125.127

You're probably not still online to be reading this, but in any case apology accepted, Bishansky.
ESG
posted @ Sat, Sep 14, 2013 4:45:12 pm EDT from 50.52.3.11

Okay, I think I'm going to take a break from the CR. I have a lot going on. Getting this new house in order, starting a new job that I am kind of stressed out about, and perhaps I am not in the right state of mind to be engaging in some debates... especially when said stress causes me to lash out. My fault, no one else's, and I do want the CR to be a friendly and welcoming environment.

So, when things settle a bit, I'll post more often. In the mean time, I know the rest of you will keep this place interesting.
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Sat, Sep 14, 2013 4:35:57 pm EDT from 67.189.178.253

Fair enough. I misread ESG's post, and I apologize to him.
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Sat, Sep 14, 2013 4:13:32 pm EDT from 67.189.178.253

Greg B> "You missed the point also, what I was saying is that it doesn't matter. Contingency plan or not, I think Xanatos would have reacted the exact same way. He's not the type to beg for his life. He didn't when Thailog was going to burn them all alive."

How does anything ESG said contradict that? ESG was just pointing out that AS FAR AS XANATOS KNEW AT THE TIME, Goliath could have killed him right then and there, which only REINFORCES your position.
Algernon
"Don't blink. Don't even blink. Blink and you're dead. They are fast. Faster than you can believe. Don't turn your back, don't look away, and DON'T blink." ~Tenth Doctor.
posted @ Sat, Sep 14, 2013 3:51:49 pm EDT from 109.78.125.127

I know that he's not the type to beg. I fail to see how your previous comment has anything to do with that. It's as you say, whether or not Goliath was willing Xanatos would have acted the same way.
ESG
posted @ Sat, Sep 14, 2013 3:49:55 pm EDT from 50.52.3.11

You missed the point also, what I was saying is that it doesn't matter. Contingency plan or not, I think Xanatos would have reacted the exact same way. He's not the type to beg for his life. He didn't when Thailog was going to burn them all alive.
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Sat, Sep 14, 2013 3:35:37 pm EDT from 67.189.178.253

Calm down, I'm not arguing that point. I'm just saying that even if Xanatos did have a Steel Clan Robot at the ready, Goliath still could have killed him. Emphasis on could. Not would or should.
ESG
posted @ Sat, Sep 14, 2013 3:33:15 pm EDT from 50.52.3.11

Okay, reposting...

You are aware there is a character who spends her time with the gargoyles named Elisa Maza who is an officer sworn to uphold the law, and acclimate them to modern times so they don't behave like barbarians.

And if they kill Xanatos? Then what? What if info about their existence gets leaked as a consequence... nothing Elisa can do for them then. And would she want to, because the Goliath she came to know and love wasn't a murdering monster.
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Sat, Sep 14, 2013 3:18:08 pm EDT from 67.189.178.253

Even if Xanatos did have a robot waiting, Goliath also could have snapped his neck and I doubt the robot would make it in time.
ESG
posted @ Sat, Sep 14, 2013 3:04:08 pm EDT from 50.52.3.11

Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. In the context of the scene itself, it really doesn't matter. I'd like to think Xanatos would have responded to Goliath's threat to drop him in that manner regardless of a back up plan to escape.
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Sat, Sep 14, 2013 1:46:11 pm EDT from 67.189.178.253

"We know from "Double Jeopardy" that the Manhattan Clan had missed at least one Steel Clan robot in the final battle of "Awakening." And it would be like Xanatos to keep one or two on standby in case he needed a flying robot in a hurry...

So I'm not sure that Xanatos would have died even if Goliath did drop him off the edge of the building."

I've thought this for a long time. Xanatos may have extreme confidence, but he also always has a back-up plan. I am certain that he had an extra robot on standby just in case.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Sep 14, 2013 1:21:24 pm EDT from 76.73.249.170

ESG> 2008's Radio Play was filmed by a "professional." Unfortunately, said "professional" then disappeared and never released the footage, so there is no known surviving video of it.

And speaking of Radio Plays..."Demona" has now signed my copy of the 2009 script. I am very much enjoying this expo.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Sat, Sep 14, 2013 12:17:37 pm EDT from 208.115.93.245

In light of our recent discourse I was thinking things over...and it comes to me that Xanatos never ceases to prove remarkable. How far does one have to go before you're justified to kill them? That's the question. But it's really not very simple. I find the easiest way to reduce it is to weigh lives: if a villain threatens your friend's life in one moment, and the only conceivable way to stop them is to kill them, then most would say you're justified in doing so. But Xanatos never puts himself into that sort of situation, does he? He makes the Manhattan Clan's lives very difficult and often miserable, but he never takes things to the boiling point.
ESG
posted @ Sat, Sep 14, 2013 1:15:42 am EDT from 50.52.3.11

<<So the entire series would play out as is already.>>

Look, I'm not really trying to argue a point: just bring up a certain perspective. That statement, however, is objectively false. It's not as if Xanatos lacks subtlety, but he has attacked the gargoyle directly on many occasions. For me to consider it a direct attack, I only require that 1: Xanatos attempts to achieve his objective through physical force 2: Xanatos is clearly responsible. Doesn't that sound right?

On a side note, does anyone know where I can find Gathering Radio Plays? I've found the 2007 and 2009 ones, and the one where they performed "The Mirror." But not the others.
ESG
posted @ Sat, Sep 14, 2013 12:45:25 am EDT from 50.52.3.11

ESG>"In any case, I'm not talking about whether it's morally the right thing to do. I'm just noting that Xanatos probably would have treaded a whole lot more carefully if they made it clear that crossing them again could be fatal. Xanatos wouldn't just openly attack them: he'd have to think of another way."

So the entire series would play out as is already.
Harlan Phoenix
The enemy is clever. We're smaller but whatever. When we put it together, I'll form the head.
posted @ Sat, Sep 14, 2013 12:00:39 am EDT from 76.2.66.79

Maybe, maybe not. We all know that Xanatos has more cock than half the planet. Metaphorical, of course.
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Fri, Sep 13, 2013 11:53:43 pm EDT from 67.189.178.253

We know from "Double Jeopardy" that the Manhattan Clan had missed at least one Steel Clan robot in the final battle of "Awakening." And it would be like Xanatos to keep one or two on standby in case he needed a flying robot in a hurry...

So I'm not sure that Xanatos would have died even if Goliath did drop him off the edge of the building.
Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Sep 13, 2013 11:43:21 pm EDT from 24.14.51.43

ESG< "I'm not talking about whether it's morally the right thing to do." Then I confess I don't know how to respond. Goliath et. al. don't kill Xanatos because doing so would be morally wrong.
Melissa
Rewatching Gargoyles and blogging about it - http://ramblingsofpicturebox.blogspot.com/
posted @ Fri, Sep 13, 2013 11:37:38 pm EDT from 184.6.105.167

Matt & Rebel: Heh, fair enough. I meant it more as loving nitpicking than serious criticism, anyway.

ESG> I'm not sure I agree that the events of Metamorphosis wouldn't have happened; I think it more likely that Xanatos just would have had to work a little harder to control the situation. He's not one to be cowed when he's decided he wants something. The strategy may have been amended, but I don't think he'd have just given up on the end goal (unless the added cost of those amendments were to outweigh the potential reward).
Ross
posted @ Fri, Sep 13, 2013 11:34:04 pm EDT from 184.9.249.94

ESG> You are aware there is a character who spends her time with the gargoyles named Elisa Maza who is an officer sworn to uphold the law, and acclimate them to modern times so they don't behave like barbarians.

And if they kill Xanatos? Then what? What if info about their existence gets leaked as a consequence... nothing Elisa can do for them then. And would she want to, because the Goliath she came to know and love wasn't a murdering monster.

I suppose I could answer all your previous questions as well as this one with one sentence: Goliath is not a sociopath.
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Fri, Sep 13, 2013 11:31:27 pm EDT from 67.189.178.253

Bishanky>"Why doesn't Batman kill the Joker?"

Because they live in a universe where life and death isn't as simple and killing Joker would be like putting him in jail.
Harlan Phoenix
The enemy is clever. We're smaller but whatever. When we put it together, I'll form the head.
posted @ Fri, Sep 13, 2013 11:21:40 pm EDT from 76.2.66.79

Greg Bishansky> Grave consequences? I'm not sure what you mean. The only person who I think would be out for vengeance is Fox, possibly Puck but he also can't directly interfere. Unless I'm missing something, it's highly questionable that things would get worse.

In any case, I'm not talking about whether it's morally the right thing to do. I'm just noting that Xanatos probably would have treaded a whole lot more carefully if they made it clear that crossing them again could be fatal. Xanatos wouldn't just openly attack them: he'd have to think of another way. Some episodes, like "Metamorphosis" wouldn't happen at all. And considering their background, it'd be a rather logical decision to make. If an army rises up to meet you, you fight back until the army retreats. If they attack you a second, third, fourth time, it stands to reason you'd try to wipe them out.

Now, I'm not touching the Eight Amendment. But as for the supervillain problem: good question. Life should be considered precious, of course. But there's gotta be a line. Each right that is given has a cost to uphold it. Is keeping one guy alive in prison worth it if he might blow up the planet if he escapes? I don't think so. What about an entire country, or even an entire city? Again, I don't think so. Who can say where exactly the line should be drawn, but it must come about at some point. Especially when dealing with villains that are unrepentantly, viciously evil. Ones that escape time after time.
ESG
posted @ Fri, Sep 13, 2013 11:20:46 pm EDT from 50.52.3.11

So, why doesn't Spider-Man kill the Green Goblin?

Why doesn't Superman kill Lex Luthor?

Why doesn't Batman kill the Joker?

Why doesn't the United States amend the eighth amendment so we can legally torture people? That might scare people into behaving better. Fascism is more efficient.
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Fri, Sep 13, 2013 10:36:36 pm EDT from 67.189.178.253

ESG> What were they supposed to do, exactly? One could argue that killing Xanatos would have had even graver consequences.

Besides, I think the end of "Awakening Part Five" settled this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Cy71a5or3dY#t=1205
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Fri, Sep 13, 2013 10:30:49 pm EDT from 67.189.178.253

ESG> I guess that depends on what you mean by "lenient." Not killing him? Or beating the crap out of him every time? That's not how heroes behave. And they do manage to foil a lot of his plans.
Melissa
Rewatching Gargoyles and blogging about it - http://ramblingsofpicturebox.blogspot.com/
posted @ Fri, Sep 13, 2013 10:23:36 pm EDT from 184.6.105.167

I wonder...should the gargoyles have been so lenient with Xanatos? He messes with them time after time, but they never make him pay for it. I can't help but think that this made things harder for them. For example, would Xanatos have recruited and mutated Derek Maza if he knew the gargoyles might take revenge? I don't think so.
ESG
posted @ Fri, Sep 13, 2013 10:14:06 pm EDT from 50.52.3.11

<<Plus Marina Sirtis on my S2V2 copy. You may all now commence your jealousy.>>

Not I. :D
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Fri, Sep 13, 2013 8:24:32 pm EDT from 67.189.178.253

Back from Preview Night of Cincinnati Comic Expo...with signed copies of the three Young Justice trades and the Free Comic Book Day preview issue from Christopher Jones.

Plus Marina Sirtis on my S2V2 copy. You may all now commence your jealousy. Unfortunately, John Rhys-Davies had to cancel, but he'll be there next year instead.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Fri, Sep 13, 2013 8:00:26 pm EDT from 174.101.230.22

Matt & Todd> I only bring it up because I work there.
Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
If you are on the wrong road, progress means.. walking back to the right road; ..the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive man~~C.S. Lewis
posted @ Fri, Sep 13, 2013 7:42:17 am EDT from 24.217.38.192

CHIP - I used to, many years ago, but I don't eat there any more. In fact, I generally don't eat out at restaurants these days, but have lunch and supper at home.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Fri, Sep 13, 2013 6:42:47 am EDT from 108.226.1.5

Sorry. That last chunk of text was meant to be directed to Rebel, not Ross. My mistake.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" - Sevarius, "Louse"
posted @ Fri, Sep 13, 2013 4:08:48 am EDT from 99.92.109.252

Ross> I get what you are saying with those lines, but I can give the Conners' some leeway since this isn't exactly an established science with established terminology. I don't feel reptile DNA is more primitive than ours, but the reptile brain is and I think that is more what Martha was talking about at the time. And regressing is as good a word as any for what was happening to Curt. If you go back far enough, mammals did evolve from lizard-like creatures afterall.

The whole topic is ironic since I just watched "Destructive Testing" (introducing Kraven and his "mutation") shortly before coming to the CR.

Chip> I don't often eat at Blueberry Hill. Maybe once a year if that. Though I have seen a few concerts in the Duck Room underneath the restaurant. Now Starclipper is a place I go to several times a year.

Ross> Interesting thoughts. And I generally agree with you. I recently was reading about how the evolution of Homo sapiens is slowing down more and more. Access to medicines, vaccines and treatments, ample clean food and water, and procedures like C-sections and transplants and a near total lack of predation have removed anything for evolution to act upon. Few people are "weeded out" of the gene pool meaning potentially everyone can procreate. Add that to the fact that we have a huge population that spans the planet and you've basically brought the ongoing evolution of our species to a standstill. Any significant further genetic developments will probably come about by our own will... unless something happens to decimate our population and remove some of our comforts and cures.

The author went on to talk about how all the other apes are evolving faster due to their small isolated populations, not to mention the pressures that the world and humanity are forcing on them (habitat loss, hunting, etc.)
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" - Sevarius, "Louse"
posted @ Fri, Sep 13, 2013 4:07:45 am EDT from 99.92.109.252

Uhhh it may not be the correct way of thinking from a biologist perspective but I don't have a problem with lines that say things like "reptiles are more primitive than humans" or "I'm regressing."

/\ The above lines seem to insinuate that humans are at the peak of evolution and that intelligence/sapience/sentience *IS* the end goal of evolution (despite the fact that evolution never ends and has no goals [aside from survive long enough to breed], and in fact "evolution" occurs in a micro sense with every subsequent generation).

But for the people that genuinely DO believe that maximum sapience = most evolved; I don't have a proper counterpoint because the complex brains of sapient organisms are furthest from the simple brains of the first organisms that had what you'd call a rudimentary "brain" and were capable of breeding. And yeah, it might be piggy-backing to be using "most evolved" to mean "most sapient" when in reality "most evolved" probably technically means "most generations since the very first organisms that were capable of breeding", but until someone is willing to supply English-speaking humans with some concise, easy-to-understand and easy-to-explain terms that encompass the fact that a given creature/person/human/monster/whatever is more cognitively advanced or at least EQUALLY cognitively equipped compared to the average human but at the same time is not fundamentally better than a much simpler organism because evolution is all about survival and not complexity/intelligence and perhaps in certain situations the simpler organism would be more likely to survive, I don't think it's fair to point out that they are technically incorrect when they say someone is "more evolved" or "just as evolved" or "primitive" compared to humans.

Language evolves too, and comes to suit the needs/uses of the people who use it.

So yeah, nothing wrong with those lines in SSM.
Rebel - [rebelfornea at gmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, Sep 13, 2013 3:24:20 am EDT from 174.109.65.242

Todd> I've been meaning to ask you, since Starclipper is your comic shop of choice, do you eat at Blueberry Hill often? (Ditto for you Matt.)
Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
If you are on the wrong road, progress means.. walking back to the right road; ..the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive man~~C.S. Lewis
posted @ Thu, Sep 12, 2013 10:55:52 pm EDT from 24.217.38.192

Matt> Heh, I've been rewatching Spectacular Spider-Man myself over the past few weeks, and your bringing it up in the midst of a conversation about incorrect evolutionary assumptions reminded me of a few unfortunate lines in "Natural Selection":

"Reptile DNA is more primitive than human."

"I can feel it...I'm regressing..."

Okay, Curt, I'll give you a pass 'cause you were just a tiny bit stressed at the time, but Martha, come on. You're a biologist.

(I did greatly enjoy that this version of the Lizard didn't have the "reptile-supremacy-kill-all-mammals" motivation of the comic version, however.)
Ross
posted @ Thu, Sep 12, 2013 9:50:46 pm EDT from 184.9.249.94

Checked out the DVD of the last ten episodes of "Young Justice: Invasion" today, though I've only watched the first five episodes (11 to 15 of the season); I'll have to save the last five for Sunday afternoon, which will be my next big break period.

[SPOILER] I've decided, rather than write an episode-by-episode review as I'd done before, to give my overall impression of the story in those five, since this season really feels more and more like a serial (if with individual stories in each episode, but advancing the main story) rather than just a series. I'm eager to see how things will go, with the Reach doing such a great job (through an ambassador great at "inadvertently" giving away the Justice League's secrets in public) at making itself popular in the eyes of the public - and the possibility that the Light may be ready to turn on the Reach once they no longer need it, especially since the Light obviously don't want the Reach ruling Earth at their expense. And bringing Blue Beetle under their control - complete with help from Green Beetle, who seems like a friend, but turns out not to be one....

I wonder if the name of the robot assistant to Despero in the first episode was a pot shot at a certain sci-fi writer/Scientologist.

First Mount Justice gets destroyed, now the Hall of Justice. Will the Watchtower still be around by the end of this season, or will someone have shot it down or blown it up? (Rhetorical question; please don't answer that one, anyone who's seen episodes 16 to 20.)

Liked the cameo from Jonathan Kent in the team's visit to Smallville (complete with his letting them stay at his barn for a bit, and welcoming Superboy as family).

Also got a kick out of the Martian name of Green Beetle sounding suspiciously similar to "Barsoom".

Looks like even galactic law courts have some problems with their translating equipment. (And some of the spectators consider the defendants barbarians for *not* engaging in bribery!)

And was that Keith David voicing Mongul in the last episode? [/SPOILER]

Incidentally, I also visited Starclipper Comics this morning, and bought a copy there of the latest book in a graphic novel series about the Trojan War by Eric Shanower, called "Age of Bronze" (this one called "Betrayal: Part Two", the fourth book in the series). It's an impressively-researched series on the Trojan War following all the sources from Homer on down - including Shakespeare's "Troilus and Cressida" (which contributed a lot to this volume) - and even drew on the archaeology about that period of history (Shanower pointed out that depictions of the Trojan War usually depict everyone as dressed in the familiar period of classical Greece - but that was in the 5th century B.C., and the Trojan War around 1200 B.C., making it like doing a story about the Norman Conquest with everyone dressed in World War II-era clothing). I'd only recommend it for grown-up readers, but anyone here who's interested in the story of the Trojan War ought to enjoy it.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Thu, Sep 12, 2013 6:19:36 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

Never been much of a Star Wars fan. Liked the first 2, the rest were disappointing. I heard good things about the Clone Wars TV series, but it failed to impress me very much. I do wonder what he has planned, since if anyone can make Star Wars interesting it's him.
ESG
posted @ Thu, Sep 12, 2013 5:14:01 pm EDT from 50.52.3.11

Brainiac> LOL.

Algernon> The only endpoint of evolution is extinction.

For the first time in a couple years, I've been watching my way through Spectacular Spider-Man. Geez, this show was excellent. I know there are a lot of us who would've loved to see where this show would've gone in a few more seasons. Ah well. Makes me excited for SW: Rebels.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" - Sevarius, "Louse"
posted @ Thu, Sep 12, 2013 2:39:06 pm EDT from 99.92.109.252

Algernon> Every time someone references that movie, I can't help but remember a conversation Dennis Hopper once mentioned:

"I made a picture called Super Mario Bros., and my six-year-old son at the time -- he's now 18 -- he said, 'Dad, I think you're probably a pretty good actor, but why did you play that terrible guy King Koopa in Super Mario Bros.?' and I said, 'Well Henry, I did that so you could have shoes,' and he said, 'Dad, I don't need shoes that badly.'"
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Thu, Sep 12, 2013 2:21:21 pm EDT from 137.183.232.27

MATT> Very true. Like I said, the "Dinosauroid" has been accused of making the unconscious assumption that anthropomorphism is the inevitable endpoint of the evolutionary process.
Algernon
"Don't blink. Don't even blink. Blink and you're dead. They are fast. Faster than you can believe. Don't turn your back, don't look away, and DON'T blink." ~Tenth Doctor.
posted @ Thu, Sep 12, 2013 2:14:36 pm EDT from 109.79.87.238

The evolution of any species depends on thousands of factors over millions of years. If a creature descended from the dinosaurs were to develop human-like intelligence, it could potentially happen from any dinosaur family. Afterall, look at our ancestors 65 million years ago.

Evolution isn't about getting "more advanced". Evolution, or more accurately natural selection, is about being more adapted to the environment. We developed our big brains for a reason, but those big brains have huge drawbacks and costs. And we are no more evolved than a mouse or oak tree or amoeba. They are kicking it just fine these days.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" - Sevarius, "Louse"
posted @ Thu, Sep 12, 2013 1:28:55 pm EDT from 99.92.109.252

CHIP> Must... fight urge to... quibble about... proper definition of... "sentient" vs "sapient."

But I digress...

I believe D is referring to a common train of thought, both in speculative fiction and serious paleontological debate, regarding the speculated intelligence level of certain small therapods such as Troodon.

Mainly the idea that, had they not been wiped out by the asteroid/flood/aliens, their evolution would have continued until their intelligence was more or less on par with Homo Sapiens. Probably the most well known example of this idea is Canadian Paleontologist Dale Russell's hypothetical "Dinosauroid." Though the Dinosauroid has come under a fair amount of criticism for being far too anthropomorphized.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosauroid#The_.22Dinosauroid.22

Naturally, Science Fiction writers weren't going to let and idea as crazy awesome as super-intelligent dinosaurs go to waste, which eventually culminated in this unparalleled moment in cinematic history...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdrlALQVEKM
Algernon
"Don't blink. Don't even blink. Blink and you're dead. They are fast. Faster than you can believe. Don't turn your back, don't look away, and DON'T blink." ~Tenth Doctor.
posted @ Thu, Sep 12, 2013 1:05:59 pm EDT from 109.79.87.238

D.>> Just Dinosaurs? All dinosaurs were sentient?
Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
If you are on the wrong road, progress means.. walking back to the right road; ..the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive man~~C.S. Lewis
posted @ Thu, Sep 12, 2013 8:05:01 am EDT from 24.217.38.192

Sorry if that post was outdated. This site doesn't display correctly for me at times.
D.
posted @ Thu, Sep 12, 2013 5:31:34 am EDT from 174.112.48.237

I'm thinking the other ghosts haunting Wyvern were Iago, Othello, and Desdemona. Greg W. did say they were "technically ghosts", his words, and that there are gargoyle ghosts. It's also the only possible way Demona could have summoned them into Coldstone given Anubis made it very clear he can't just summon up souls willy nilly, and Puck said roughly the same thing during that whole soul mix-up thing. Pretty safe bet once a soul is gone, it's gone. No way the Coldtrio's spirits were so readily available to Demona in Reawakening. The spirits had to already been wandering Wyvern (no, they need not interact with other spirits; pretty common thing in ghost-hunter lore where ghosts don't seem to notice other ghosts).

And when Greg W. says he needs to convince a publisher to take a Gargoyles novel, I wonder if he needs permission from Disney or just any publisher? Because in that case, he should consider E-Publishing. No publishers required. Can get your stuff on Amazon and the like pretty easy. Done it myself.

And the "Lost Race" was dinosaurs, btw.
D.
posted @ Thu, Sep 12, 2013 5:30:15 am EDT from 174.112.48.237

Anthony>We also know about the general design aesthetic ("a CGI mashup of the original Ralph McQuarrie art by way of the warmth of Hayao Miyazaki") via Dave Filoni.
Harlan Phoenix
The enemy is clever. We're smaller but whatever. When we put it together, I'll form the head.
posted @ Wed, Sep 11, 2013 5:57:53 pm EDT from 76.2.66.79

@Adam Carlson - Check Greg Weisman's twitter, but I doubt it. Only the time frame and logo have been revealed thus far.
Anthony Tini
posted @ Wed, Sep 11, 2013 10:43:43 am EDT from 159.240.11.216

While I disagree with ESG on this one, I love that s/he inspired a conversation about a often untalked about episode.

There is one moment in "Golem" that I really love. When Goliath first climbs the tower and looks over Prague, there is this awesome wind sound... and stillness. Something about that brief moment has always gave me a "That's so cool" feeling. It is so Gargoyles, but in an action packed series that needs to tell a whole story in 22 minutes, we rarely get one of those still and quiet moments. And there is just something about a gargoyle watching over a city in quiet and solitude...
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" - Sevarius, "Louse"
posted @ Wed, Sep 11, 2013 5:32:02 am EDT from 99.92.109.252

<<Is he being hard on himself? Who knows. But if he wasn't, he wouldn't be Renard.>>
That is the crux of the matter. As it actually happened he was right to give up the Golem. As it might have been had he negotiated, I think he would have been right to keep it, but I imagine you're correct in that he wouldn't.
ESG
posted @ Tue, Sep 10, 2013 4:57:19 pm EDT from 50.52.31.133

EGS> "And yes, he'd still probably let the power go to his head. However, if the Golem was rightfully his it would hardly be a problem. No gargoyles to fight, no books to burn, no lives to compromise. He might smash a few cars and break a few walls, but soon enough he'd come to his senses. He'd reimburse for the damages."

But then he'd probably simply give up the Golem again. After all, if he can falter once, who's to say he wouldn't again in a moment of anger or frustration?

Of course, this sort of thing is probably why Greg doesn't like hypotheticals. Change the circumstances of a person's decisions and suddenly they're making all kinds of new decisions no one can predict.

The point is Renard was given a taste of power and immortality and he abused it. To Renard, that's pretty definitive proof that he doesn't deserve that kind of immortality.

Is he being hard on himself? Who knows. But if he wasn't, he wouldn't be Renard.
Algernon
"Don't blink. Don't even blink. Blink and you're dead. They are fast. Faster than you can believe. Don't turn your back, don't look away, and DON'T blink." ~Tenth Doctor.
posted @ Tue, Sep 10, 2013 4:44:25 pm EDT from 109.79.71.112

ESG> "He might smash a few cars and break a few walls, but soon enough he'd come to his senses. He'd reimburse for the damages. If a harmless power trip is too much for his moral sensibilities, I think he's being entirely too hard on himself."

I think your definition of "harmless" needs some work.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Tue, Sep 10, 2013 4:40:57 pm EDT from 137.183.232.27

Algernon> We have no reason to believe he tried negotiation. It would be easy enough to mention that detail in passing. Max didn't bring it up when he explained his problems about The Golem to Goliath, but someone coming to buy the Golem would certainly merit mentioning.

And yes, he'd still probably let the power go to his head. However, if the Golem was rightfully his it would hardly be a problem. No gargoyles to fight, no books to burn, no lives to compromise. He might smash a few cars and break a few walls, but soon enough he'd come to his senses. He'd reimburse for the damages. If a harmless power trip is too much for his moral sensibilities, I think he's being entirely too hard on himself.
ESG
posted @ Tue, Sep 10, 2013 4:20:53 pm EDT from 50.52.31.133

ESG> Perhaps but for all we know, he sent Vogel to them first to try and outright buy the Golem. If so, I doubt Preston would have revealed exactly why he wanted the Golem. If Renard has a fatal flaw, it's his pride. I think going to a couple of complete strangers and essentially begging for his life would have been to much for him.

And even if he had convinced them, there's no guarantee he wouldn't have went a little power-mad again. So... We're back to square one.
Algernon
"Don't blink. Don't even blink. Blink and you're dead. They are fast. Faster than you can believe. Don't turn your back, don't look away, and DON'T blink." ~Tenth Doctor.
posted @ Tue, Sep 10, 2013 3:02:54 pm EDT from 109.79.71.112

Algernon> I agree with you, I agree with Masterdramon. But it's still a tragedy that Renard didn't try negotiation in the first place.
ESG
posted @ Tue, Sep 10, 2013 2:53:53 pm EDT from 50.52.31.133

ESG> You're missing the essential point. Whether Max and Janus would been willing to give Renard the Golem is immaterial. After what happened in Prague, Renard wouldn't want it. Or rather, Renard wouldn't trust himself with that kind of power again after experiencing first hand how easily it can corrupt.

I think the problem is that you're looking at this from a utilitarian point of view, trying find a solution that will yield maximum benefit to all parties concerned. But Renard isn't a utilitarian. If anything, he's Kantian in his ethics.

In Renard's world there are certain rules everyone has to live by. Just because you're rich enough to pay off your mercenaries in hovercrafts and have a terminal illness, doesn't mean you get to break those rules and then whine about how "it's not my fault". But Renard did exactly that, didn't he?

Even if Max and Janus had offered Renard the Golem afterwards (and for all we know, they did offscreen), I think that would have felt like being rewarded for his rule-breaking to Renard. And for someone who's always prided himself on accepting full responsibility for his actions, that would not sit well at all.
Algernon
"Don't blink. Don't even blink. Blink and you're dead. They are fast. Faster than you can believe. Don't turn your back, don't look away, and DON'T blink." ~Tenth Doctor.
posted @ Tue, Sep 10, 2013 2:41:22 pm EDT from 109.79.71.112

Greg Bishansky>
Renard isn't the most deserving, but he is the one who can offer ample compensation. While using The Golem to save a child's life would be a noble act, it wouldn't solve the problem in Prague. But bargaining with Renard is the difference between helping the people of Prague and helping the people of Prague +1. Both sides get what they want, for an overall net gain.
ESG
posted @ Tue, Sep 10, 2013 2:22:40 pm EDT from 50.52.31.133

If the Golem is something to be traded to preserve a life like that, I think the child shot up in Darfur is more deserving than the old billionaire who did live a full life.

Why does Renard deserve it, again?

Sorry, but you are wrong on this one.
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Tue, Sep 10, 2013 2:05:22 pm EDT from 67.189.178.253

Greg Bishansky> At most The Golem only seems capable of preserving one life. Renard couldn't give anyone else the gift of The Golem without forfeiting his own life. There's a big difference between giving up a valuable object that is now completely superflous and giving up one's life. And it's not as if Max and Janus are obligated to trade The Golem. I just think it would be the right thing to do.
ESG
posted @ Tue, Sep 10, 2013 2:03:03 pm EDT from 50.52.31.133

ESG> <<Under most circumstances the robots would be quite effective against human combatants. letting a man die due to some sense of sentimentality...doesn't seem right.>>

Okay, let's take this to the ultimate conclusion. Okay, let's say you're right and this is what happens. How about next month when Renard in the Golem encounters a child with leukemia? Is he obligated to give up the Golem so that child may live? How about a year later, does the child in the Golem have to give it up so another child who was shot up in Darfur by warlords can live longer?

Does everybody get a chance to live in the Golem for a few days/weeks, etc? No? Who decides who does? Only the super rich who can afford it? Is that fair?
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Tue, Sep 10, 2013 1:37:34 pm EDT from 67.189.178.253

Masterdramon> Good point. It's still a tragedy that Renard was so desperate as to forgo negotiation. but you're right in that the situation was probably unsalvageable by the end of it.

Rebel> Who says controlling the Golem is his destiny? Who would want that destiny anyway? The Golem has little power besides physical strength and durability. He'd mostly just use it against people like Brod, which the robots could take care of instead.

<<dying of old age, which is a perfectly normal thing to die from and ought to be greeted with just a smidgeon of dignity and acceptance?>> There was a time when dying of small pox was perfectly normal. That doesn't mean you can't take the cure.

<<If I was one of those guys living in Prague and Renard offered me a bunch of robots in exchange for the Golem, I'd probably decline too. Maybe it's sentimental but the Golem has history with Prague and belongs in Prague as a protector. Plus it's magic, and I would prefer one magical protector over 100 mechanical protectors. Plus the Golem seems to have some sort of primitive sentience and the capacity to learn, and the machines would likely be an awful lot like steel clan robots...very efficient but ultimately limited by their programming. I supposed you could make a machine that learns, but then what if you ended up with 100 Coyotes? Nope nope nope.>>
Under most circumstances the robots would be quite effective against human combatants. letting a man die due to some sense of sentimentality...doesn't seem right.
ESG
posted @ Tue, Sep 10, 2013 1:25:23 pm EDT from 50.52.31.133

Rebel: Max Loew and Janus, for the record.
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"I lie awake, staring out at the bleakness of Megadon..." - Rush
posted @ Tue, Sep 10, 2013 12:40:39 pm EDT from 66.91.223.104

Another thing everyone is forgetting is those two dudes who were trying to revive the Golem. I don't remember their names because I found them kinda boring as characters, but nevertheless, they matter in this story as well.

That younger dude's DESTINY was to lead, guide, and teach the Golem. Or something. And if Renard continued to occupy the Golem, that young man's destiny wouldn't mean jack squat. Is Renard's future worth more than that other dude's future, especially considering that other dude is young and has his whole life and future ahead of him and Renard is a really old man who's probably dying of the same kinds of illnesses that lots of other old people die from? I.e. essentially dying of old age, which is a perfectly normal thing to die from and ought to be greeted with just a smidgeon of dignity and acceptance?

If I was one of those guys living in Prague and Renard offered me a bunch of robots in exchange for the Golem, I'd probably decline too. Maybe it's sentimental but the Golem has history with Prague and belongs in Prague as a protector. Plus it's magic, and I would prefer one magical protector over 100 mechanical protectors. Plus the Golem seems to have some sort of primitive sentience and the capacity to learn, and the machines would likely be an awful lot like steel clan robots...very efficient but ultimately limited by their programming. I supposed you could make a machine that learns, but then what if you ended up with 100 Coyotes? Nope nope nope.

And yeah, integrity and all that.
Rebel - [rebelfornea at gmail dot com]
posted @ Tue, Sep 10, 2013 12:37:29 pm EDT from 174.109.65.242

ESG: In a vacuum, starting from a purely logical standpoint, I think your position makes sense. But just giving back the Golem won't cause Renard to forget how he stole it in the first place.

In the scenario you're proposing, where Renard trades technological support to the city of Prague to push out organized crime in exchange for acquiring the Golem fair and square...well, what then?

Even if he possessed the Golem in the "right" way, if such a thing exists, every day that he looks down at his hands would be a reminder of the one time he possessed it the "wrong" way.

The proper analogy, I think, would be an old man stealing an organ transplant needed to keep someone else alive. Even if he gives it back later and asks to barter for it fairly, it certainly doesn't erase the crime of doing it in the first place. Not for the victim, and not for the old man.

And this isn't just any old man. Many people, perhaps, could manage to push those 5 minutes of power-tripping out of their mind. Renard would never be able to.

He's spent his entire life lecturing people on integrity, from Fox to Goliath. He could never, and would never, let himself forget about the one time he betrayed his own. Perhaps in a way, that's his penance.

No matter how many lives his robots saved in Prague, no matter how much good he could potentially do in the body of the Golem...all of it would be worthless to him.

Because when he looked in the mirror, he'd just see the rampage. Every single time.
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"I lie awake, staring out at the bleakness of Megadon..." - Rush
posted @ Tue, Sep 10, 2013 6:11:49 am EDT from 66.91.223.104

<<Yes. Giving back the Golem REALLY was, the ONLY way to restore his integrity. He STOLE it, he had to make reparations, and it HAD to be given back.>>
First give it back, of course. Then barter.

Sure, the power had gone to his head. I bet a lot of people would feel like he did, walking strong after years of hobbling. That doesn't mean he had to stay that way. He could have reined himself in and returned to how he was. It was all in his head: The Golem wasn't physically affecting him.

<<No, he should NOT try to barter, because it would not have worked. I do not understand why this is not obvious. If he THOUGHT that it would have worked, he WOULD have. He's a successful businessman. I think he knows how to make a sale, and when one isn't possible.>>
Even the wisest men make obvious mistakes. David Xanatos left the Grimorum Arcanorum out in his lobby where it could be easily stolen by the gargoyles: and it was.

<<Besides...Part of the reason that he stole the golem, is that deep down inside, he KNEW that this was wrong. The whole thing, placing his soul in the Golem was morally wrong. It didn't take much for Goliath to talk him down...Because he knew that the answer was there all along. He KNEW he was wrong.>>
Going about it the way he did was wrong, that's all I agree with.

<<They weren't looking at it as a Cultural Heritage Item AT THAT MOMENT. Because they had other concerns. That doesn't MEAN it wasn't one, or that they WOULD have made that exchange. Because they wouldn't. Flat out would not have made the exchange. Renard's reasons for wanting the Golem were selfish. End of Story.>>
If people are offered substantial compensation but refuse to part with a single lifeless Golem to save a largely decent man's life, I think those people are the ones in the wrong.

<<Brod ran away to New York after ONE encounter with the Golem.>>
He did? Well, I stand corrected.

<<Avalon doesn't work that way either. It knows the difference between right and wrong. Or it never would have sent Goliath to New York to prevent Oberon from kidnapping Alex. Offering compensation for a stolen item was not on Avalon's agenda that day. Saving the SOUL of a Man of Integrity WAS.>>
Or perhaps it was looking out for the welfare of the people of Prague, and was hardly concerned with how exactly their salvation came. Renard didn't have to give up the Golem to keep his integrity.
ESG
posted @ Tue, Sep 10, 2013 2:50:37 am EDT from 50.52.31.133

Sorry for the double post but...http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=194

It's not about the Golem. It's about integrity.
Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
If you are on the wrong road, progress means.. walking back to the right road; ..the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive man~~C.S. Lewis
posted @ Tue, Sep 10, 2013 2:12:02 am EDT from 24.217.38.192

ESG> You completely missed the point, so I will go through YOUR responses one by one.

Yes. Giving back the Golem REALLY was, the ONLY way to restore his integrity. He STOLE it, he had to make reparations, and it HAD to be given back.

I'm using the same phrasing Goliath did; "Worthless Clay" because in the end, that IS what it was. He's not living out a life as a strongman or a brain in a jar. That was not the point. He was living out a life devoid of integrity. He went around the city, DESTROYING everything in his way, knocking over gravestones, smashing (already smashed) cars. Bending street lamps...For what? WHAT was the purpose of that? The strength...The power had gone to his head.

No, he should NOT try to barter, because it would not have worked. I do not understand why this is not obvious. If he THOUGHT that it would have worked, he WOULD have. He's a successful businessman. I think he knows how to make a sale, and when one isn't possible. Besides...Part of the reason that he stole the golem, is that deep down inside, he KNEW that this was wrong. The whole thing, placing his soul in the Golem was morally wrong. It didn't take much for Goliath to talk him down...Because he knew that the answer was there all along. He KNEW he was wrong.

They weren't looking at it as a Cultural Heritage Item AT THAT MOMENT. Because they had other concerns. That doesn't MEAN it wasn't one, or that they WOULD have made that exchange. Because they wouldn't. Flat out would not have made the exchange. Renard's reasons for wanting the Golem were selfish. End of Story.

And I'm not talking about being a recluse. I don't mean his company or his business. I mean a life devoid of integrity. That kind of life, would be HELL ON EARTH for someone like Renard. My argument--And the point you seem to have missed--Centers around Renard's moral compass. His MORALS and INTEGRITY were compromised. And that compromise meant that no...No he would never enjoy reading about those heroes who kept their integrity, playing a strategy game when he himself was a cheater, and he could never face those few close friends because of what he had done. His conscience would not have allowed it.

Brod ran away to New York after ONE encounter with the Golem.

Where the Golem almost killed him.

Pretty sure Brod was done with Prague, after that.

Avalon doesn't work that way either. It knows the difference between right and wrong. Or it never would have sent Goliath to New York to prevent Oberon from kidnapping Alex. Offering compensation for a stolen item was not on Avalon's agenda that day. Saving the SOUL of a Man of Integrity WAS.
Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
If you are on the wrong road, progress means.. walking back to the right road; ..the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive man~~C.S. Lewis
posted @ Tue, Sep 10, 2013 1:56:04 am EDT from 24.217.38.192

Chip> I think I'll go through your response piece by piece.

<<Renard STOLE the Golem--Something that was not his property--And sold out on his integrity--Something that defined his character, for a chance to live a false life in worthless clay.>>
Giving back the Golem wasn't the only way to restore his integrity. And the clay was hardly worthless. You can be a strongman or a brain in a jar: your life is still valid.

<<Why would he steal the Golem if he even thought for a moment that he could barter/purchase it?>>
Good question. He certainly should tried to barter.
<<Even without it's use as a protector, it is a CULTURAL HERITAGE item. They never would have parted with it. Not for all the tea and robots in China. It would be like asking England to trade Stonehenge for robots. It never would have happened. (Yes, that's a flawed analogy, but I can't think of something even remotely comparable...)>>
They weren't looking at it as a cultural heritage item. They were looking at it as a solution to their problem. Up until then it had just been gathering moss, and they had no issue putting it in the way of bullet fire. Robots would be a sufficient trade.

<<And even if he had remained in the Golem...What kind of a life do you really think he would have lived from that point on?>>
From what we've seen, he's already something of a recluse. Dropping out of the public eye wouldn't change his life much. With Vogul taking care of things he could run his business from the shadows. He would also still be able to enjoy many joys of life such as reading, playing strategy games or enjoying the company of a few close friends.

<<Heck...If we're talking "could haves" he could have remained in the Golem AND beat up Brod and his thugs. All party's would have "won" at that point.>>
Not really, no. Beating up Brod's gang once wouldn't solve everything. That wouldn't be a satisfactory solution unless Renard didn't mind serving as local guardian for who knows how long.

<<Stealing and possessing the Golem was an act of desperation...And one that Renard, a man who Ultimately, was one of great integrity, would have regretted forever. That's Avalon sent Goliath to Renard. To remind him of who he was. And remind him that he would never be happy in that body.>>
Perhaps Avalon simply didn't want him to take the Golem without offering proper compensation.
ESG
posted @ Tue, Sep 10, 2013 1:34:48 am EDT from 50.52.31.133

ESG>> That's not the point at all.

Renard STOLE the Golem--Something that was not his property--And sold out on his integrity--Something that defined his character, for a chance to live a false life in worthless clay.

Why would he steal the Golem if he even thought for a moment that he could barter/purchase it?

Even without it's use as a protector, it is a CULTURAL HERITAGE item. They never would have parted with it. Not for all the tea and robots in China. It would be like asking England to trade Stonehenge for robots. It never would have happened. (Yes, that's a flawed analogy, but I can't think of something even remotely comparable...)

And even if he had remained in the Golem...What kind of a life do you really think he would have lived from that point on? Heck...If we're talking "could haves" he could have remained in the Golem AND beat up Brod and his thugs. All party's would have "won" at that point.

But would they have been "happy"? I seriously doubt it. Stealing and possessing the Golem was an act of desperation...And one that Renard, a man who Ultimately, was one of great integrity, would have regretted forever. That's Avalon sent Goliath to Renard. To remind him of who he was. And remind him that he would never be happy in that body.
Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
If you are on the wrong road, progress means.. walking back to the right road; ..the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive man~~C.S. Lewis
posted @ Tue, Sep 10, 2013 12:51:00 am EDT from 24.217.38.192

Did anyone else think that Renard's relinquishing of the Golem body was almost totally pointless? There was an obvious solution that would have made all involved parties happy: trade the Golem for a hundred of Renard's humanoid robots.
ESG
posted @ Tue, Sep 10, 2013 12:34:10 am EDT from 50.52.31.133

TODD> I think I did but it may have been ages ago. Chip , Masterdramon, Brainiac and GXB all know. I may have just unconsciously assumed it was common knowledge here. But yeah, you see why the Irish Mythology angle intrigues me so much?

MATTHEW> Happy Birthday, man. Sorry for not saying it earlier, I tend to skim over the countdown.
Algernon
"Don't blink. Don't even blink. Blink and you're dead. They are fast. Faster than you can believe. Don't turn your back, don't look away, and DON'T blink." ~Tenth Doctor.
posted @ Mon, Sep 9, 2013 7:19:51 pm EDT from 109.77.225.110

ALGERNON - Whoa, I didn't know you lived in Ireland! (Of course, you might have mentioned it here before and I forgot.)
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Mon, Sep 9, 2013 7:03:29 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, MATTHEW!!! :)
Battle Beast - [Canada]
I did it! I watched all 485 Best picture nominees in 365 days!
posted @ Mon, Sep 9, 2013 6:59:31 pm EDT from 75.159.21.195

TODD> "It also mentioned an alternate story where she was fighting against the Fomorians instead"

Heh, Scota was badass like that. Funnily enough her alleged grave is only the next county over from me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotia%27s_Grave
Algernon
"Don't blink. Don't even blink. Blink and you're dead. They are fast. Faster than you can believe. Don't turn your back, don't look away, and DON'T blink." ~Tenth Doctor.
posted @ Mon, Sep 9, 2013 6:50:52 pm EDT from 109.77.225.110

ALGERNON - By coincidence, yesterday I was reading a book called "A Scottish Miscellany" by Jonathan Green, whose opening chapter was on Scota and the legends surrounding her; it mentioned her fighting the Tuatha de Danaan. (It also mentioned an alternate story where she was fighting against the Fomorians instead - a race of monstrous demon-like creatures who were the traditional adversaries of the Tuatha de Danaan, a bit like the frost giants to the Aesir in Norse mythology.)

The book also contains chapters on Macbeth, the Stone of Destiny, Robert the Bruce (who figured in the Stone of Destiny story) and the Loch Ness Monster - along with other familiar elements of Scottish history, legend, and culture that haven't gotten into "Gargoyles" (at least, not yet), such as Hadrian's Wall, William Wallace, Mary Queen of Scots, Rob Roy, Robert Burns, bagpipes, and haggis.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Mon, Sep 9, 2013 6:15:26 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

Hi all. Does anyone know if Greg has posted any updates on the Star Wars:Rebels series lately?
Adam Carlson - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Sep 9, 2013 5:31:25 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

So I recently reread the Stone of Destiny arc. One fun things you probably won't get without a broader understanding of Irish Mythology is just how stone-cold badass Scota and her sons are.

As you know from the comics, Scota and her sons landed in Ireland were they proceeded to open a can of woopass on the island's previous inhabitants, eventually driving out their enemies and becoming the mythical ancestors of the modern Irish.

Sounds pretty badass as is, right? Well it gets even more so when you look at who the previous inhabitants. See, according to Irish mythology, Ireland was inhabited by the Tuatha de Danann, the pre-Christian gods of pagan Ireland, before Scota and family arrived to drive the Tuatha out of Ireland.

In Gargoyles terms, Scota and family took on an entire tribe of Mab's Children... And won!
Algernon
posted @ Mon, Sep 9, 2013 10:03:17 am EDT from 78.143.161.152

Masterdramon> I did not notice all of those. I swear it wasn't intentional - my countdown greediness was entirely subconscious.

Though I suppose now I need to work out a statement to grab the entire back half to be consistent.

Heh. Apologies to Masterdramon, Phil, and Jurgan as well in any case.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Mon, Sep 9, 2013 8:37:52 am EDT from 137.183.232.27

10
Anthony Tini
posted @ Mon, Sep 9, 2013 7:50:03 am EDT from 159.240.11.216

Lucky number nine, and appropriately enough on my birthday too.
Matthew
"Shall we their fond pageant see? Lord, what fools these mortals be!"-Puck
posted @ Mon, Sep 9, 2013 3:07:37 am EDT from 71.202.8.177

Ate!Eight!(8)
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
Mark Twain: "Don't argue with stupid people. They'll take you down to their level and beat you with experience."
posted @ Mon, Sep 9, 2013 3:00:18 am EDT from 70.225.4.85

Seventh!
Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Mon, Sep 9, 2013 1:39:36 am EDT from 70.176.170.14

Sixth
ESG
posted @ Mon, Sep 9, 2013 12:41:44 am EDT from 50.52.31.133

Fivishness!
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Sep 9, 2013 12:16:17 am EDT from 76.73.249.170

Fourth! (I'm not usually up this late.)
Phil - [p1anderson at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Sep 9, 2013 12:10:46 am EDT from 69.214.8.21

"And with this, the first post of the week, I have a message for everyone.

I've got three people looking to get S2V2 DVDs through me. I'm looking for a fourth so that I can do free shipping through the Disney Store. If you're interested (particularly if you're outside the USA where the various options don't seem to ship), shoot me an email and I'll see what I can do. Heck, if five people contact me, maybe I'll get a second batch as well."

Greedy bastard, you claimed half the countdown at once! ;)

Seriously though...THIRD!
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"I lie awake, staring out at the bleakness of Megadon..." - Rush
posted @ Mon, Sep 9, 2013 12:08:35 am EDT from 66.91.223.104

Weird - my email goofed. Anyways, fixed now.

Also, my apologies to Chip for claiming Second as well in my post. Oopsie.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Mon, Sep 9, 2013 12:04:54 am EDT from 174.101.230.22

Second.
Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
If you are on the wrong road, progress means.. walking back to the right road; ..the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive man~~C.S. Lewis
posted @ Mon, Sep 9, 2013 12:03:37 am EDT from 24.217.38.192

And with this, the first post of the week, I have a message for everyone.

I've got three people looking to get S2V2 DVDs through me. I'm looking for a fourth so that I can do free shipping through the Disney Store. If you're interested (particularly if you're outside the USA where the various options don't seem to ship), shoot me an email and I'll see what I can do. Heck, if five people contact me, maybe I'll get a second batch as well.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Mon, Sep 9, 2013 12:01:23 am EDT from 174.101.230.22