Comment Room Archive : Gargoyles : Station Eight

Jason> I'm actually still looking to find a fourth person interested in a copy of the S2V2 DVD. If you just want that, let me know via email and we can discuss getting that for you.

If you're interested in the other items as well (namely the other two DVD sets, the Clan-Building trades, and the Bad Guys trade), I can see about getting them through other means and shipping them along to you as well at cost. However, they are available on Amazon.de as you can see here:

http://www.amazon.de/Gargoyles-Complete-Season-1/dp/B00D9KANJQ/ref=sr_1_1
http://www.amazon.de/Gargoyles-Season-2-Volume-1/dp/B005VXPJNY/ref=sr_1_1
http://www.amazon.de/Gargoyles-Clan-Building-Volume-v/dp/1593620969/ref=pd_cp_d_3
http://www.amazon.de/Gargoyles-Clan-Building-Volume-2/dp/1593621671/ref=pd_cp_d_2
http://www.amazon.de/Bad-Guys-Gargoyles-Greg-Weisman/dp/1593621930/ref=pd_sim_sbs_eb_3
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Sat, Sep 21, 2013 12:10:31 pm EDT from 174.101.230.22

Hi !
Would it be posible to put some comic or any other products on Amazon.de also DVD for Germany Austria etc.. thank you
Jason - [j_morris at hotmail dot e]
Jason
posted @ Sat, Sep 21, 2013 9:00:25 am EDT from 178.115.128.246

Algernon> My, that's a rather tragic impulse decision. Then again, perhaps that's not the end of it...
ESG
posted @ Fri, Sep 20, 2013 11:14:05 pm EDT from 50.52.3.11

ESG> Actually, just checked my copy of Clan-Building V2 and neither May, Finella or the audience actually witness Constantine's death. All we see is Kenneth raising his sword to presumably deliver the death blow, then we immediately cut to the Phoenix manifesting before Brook, Mary and Finella. At which point, the battle is still raging.
Algernon
"Don't blink. Don't even blink. Blink and you're dead. They are fast. Faster than you can believe. Don't turn your back, don't look away, and DON'T blink." ~Tenth Doctor.
posted @ Fri, Sep 20, 2013 11:01:43 pm EDT from 109.79.70.202

Algernon>Not likely. Constantine was dead, but instead of going to Avalon they decided to go with Brooklyn.
ESG
posted @ Fri, Sep 20, 2013 10:41:27 pm EDT from 50.52.3.11

Todd> The 'Richard II' portion is actually airing right now where I am. I'm not familiar with the play and I started watching late, so I'm a little lost, but it's entertaining regardless. I'll definitely try to catch the others.
Ross
posted @ Fri, Sep 20, 2013 10:38:30 pm EDT from 184.9.249.94

I think it also possible Mary and Finella held the vague hope that they'd one day be able to join Katherine, Tom and the Magus one day when Constantine was no longer a threat.
Algernon
"Don't blink. Don't even blink. Blink and you're dead. They are fast. Faster than you can believe. Don't turn your back, don't look away, and DON'T blink." ~Tenth Doctor.
posted @ Fri, Sep 20, 2013 10:07:02 pm EDT from 109.79.70.202

I asked Greg about the possibility of tearing out and destroying the page with the teleportation spell, and... well... here's how it played out:

Paul writes...
When the Magus handed over the Grimorum to Mary and Finella after casting the "teleport to Avalon" spell, why didn't he tear out and destroy the page with the teleportation spell? He had seen Hakon tear out and destroy another of the Grimorum's pages, so he knew that it could be done; and it would prevent Constantine from pursuing them to Avalon even if he did obtain the Grimorum.

Greg responds...
The book was so holy to him, I don't think the thought occured. I mean, why not destroy the entire thing? It just wasn't the way he was trained.
Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Sep 20, 2013 9:53:04 pm EDT from 24.14.51.43

Harlan: Very well. I will provide you with a change of pace, then...

"Hello. My name is Masterdramon, and I am a Troper.

You don't like the site? Coolios. I really don't care either way."

There we go. Conversation-sans-patronizing-ramble.

Now, onto the main issue...I think you're missing that no one here is suggesting destroying the book, as a whole entity. You don't need to convince me that that's likely to be more-or-less impossible.

But you aren't addressing ESG's point at all: that burning it page-by-page and dumping the binding in the ocean (or something of that nature) would seem to accomplish nearly the exact same thing, if one was inclined to do so. And nothing in canon seems to preclude this as a potentiality.

Now, that being said, I also find it hard to believe the Magus would go for that; the loss of knowledge and history would significantly outweigh any benefit.

But simply burning one page - the page that makes the Grimorum the Pathway to Avalon? If the worst-case scenario was truly Constantine getting his hands on the book and using it to pursue them, then it seems a logical precaution.

And nothing I've seen, in canon or argued here, makes me believe that destroying said page would be any harder than Hakon burning the Sleep Counterspell.
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"I lie awake, staring out at the bleakness of Megadon..." - Rush
posted @ Fri, Sep 20, 2013 9:05:16 pm EDT from 66.91.223.104

>Harlan

If it's not a simple matter of the binding being magically durable, the question is begged of where exactly the Grimorum's protection kicks in. What, does it wait until half the pages are burned before protection the other half? Or are only certain pages protected? It's hard to guess what Weisman meant.
ESG
posted @ Fri, Sep 20, 2013 8:54:13 pm EDT from 50.52.3.11

Masterdramon>"Yes, because every single user of a particular website clearly fits some asinine stereotype."

The grand majority of times I've spoken with TV Tropers, it always involves pleasant conversation and when I mention I don't like the site itself I always get this big long ramble about how tropes are the foundation of writing something, as if I oppose or do not believe the very concept of archetypes or repeated motifs in storytelling rather than just not liking the site.

So no, I'm not surprised when someone who talks about TV Tropes for no contextually discernible reason in a post turns out to have a massive lack of reading or listening comprehension. I choose to indulge in the hilarity.

"Seriously, what kind of attitude is that? It's a legitimate question."

Why Mary would abandon Tom is a legitimate question in the sense that "Why do the Reach want the meta teens?" is also a legitimate question, in that the reason behind it is so blatantly obvious that there's no need to ask if you actually perused the material you're questioning.

"Even if we grant - and Magus' use of the Grimorum as a shield supports this - that the Grimorum's binding is nigh-indestructable, the individual pages clearly are not.

At present, I cannot think of a valid counterargument to ESG's suggestion that the Avalon spell by itself be burned, other than that the Magus simply didn't think of it."

You can also snap the Phoenix Gate in half for it to come back together. Has there ever been an instance where someone actually thought they could put the pages back in?

And even if that's not possible, I'd argue looking at the definition of a book:

book [book]
noun
1.a handwritten or printed work of fiction or nonfiction, usually on sheets of paper fastened or bound together within covers.

2.a work of fiction or nonfiction in an electronic format: Your child can listen to or read the book online. See also e-book ( def 2 ) .

3.a number of sheets of blank or ruled paper bound together for writing, recording business transactions, etc.

4.a division of a literary work, especially one of the larger divisions.

5. the Book, the Bible.

This isn't me being snarky. A book, e.i. the book Grimorum Arcanorum, is a work collecting individual pages. The PAGES can clearly be destroyed, but that, by definition, has no influence on destroying the actual book because said book is a collection of other things.

If you can break the Phoenix Gate in half, there's nothing contradictory about being able to also damage another Key to Power. Destroying the pages of the Grimorum Arcanorum and destroying the Grimorum are two entirely different things. The pages, and even the spells therein, are arguably NOT the Grimorum.

Unlike the Mary shpiel, yes, this is actually a pretty fair question. But a book COLLECTS things, whether pages, pieces of information, or what have you. Destroying a piece of that collection does not inherently mean the thing collecting them can also be easily destroyed.
Harlan Phoenix
The enemy is clever. We're smaller but whatever. When we put it together, I'll form the head.
posted @ Fri, Sep 20, 2013 8:00:12 pm EDT from 76.2.66.79

Not that anyone having the DVDs needs to worry-but Canada's version of Disney XD has relegated Gargoyles to Weekends only (at 2am and 4am).
Wingless
posted @ Fri, Sep 20, 2013 7:30:11 pm EDT from 99.246.18.21

Harlan: Yes, because every single user of a particular website clearly fits some asinine stereotype.

Seriously, what kind of attitude is that? It's a legitimate question.

Even if we grant - and Magus' use of the Grimorum as a shield supports this - that the Grimorum's binding is nigh-indestructable, the individual pages clearly are not.

At present, I cannot think of a valid counterargument to ESG's suggestion that the Avalon spell by itself be burned, other than that the Magus simply didn't think of it.
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"I lie awake, staring out at the bleakness of Megadon..." - Rush
posted @ Fri, Sep 20, 2013 7:27:48 pm EDT from 66.91.223.104

TODD> I foolishly attempted to post it in Small Caps.
Algernon
"Don't blink. Don't even blink. Blink and you're dead. They are fast. Faster than you can believe. Don't turn your back, don't look away, and DON'T blink." ~Tenth Doctor.
posted @ Fri, Sep 20, 2013 7:04:24 pm EDT from 109.79.70.202

A TV Troper being unable to wrap his head around Mary's decision makes sense. Did he not watch Avalon at all or did one of the events being a "trope" proceed to fry his brain as it didn't align with what he assumed about it?

And just a few pages doesn't really say anything. You can snap the Gate in half, for example, but that doesn't cause the Phoenix to rise. I assumed the Three Keys to Power were capable of personifying themselves if absolutely necessary.
Harlan Phoenix
The enemy is clever. We're smaller but whatever. When we put it together, I'll form the head.
posted @ Fri, Sep 20, 2013 6:37:35 pm EDT from 76.2.66.79

So how did the message get so weird?

This Sunday (here in St. Louis; other towns may have different schedules), the local PBS station will be airing the first part of "The Hollow Crown", an adaptation of Shakespeare's history plays from "Richard II" to "Henry V", which, from the previews, looks exciting. (And so high-budget that I suspect they'll have to cut the Chorus scenes from "Henry V" where they're apologizing for the limitations of the Elizabethan stage.) Jeremy Irons will play Henry IV and Tom Hiddleston (who was Loki in the "Thor" movie) will play Prince Hal/Henry V.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Fri, Sep 20, 2013 6:35:05 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

If you can destroy any given page, I don't see why you couldn't destroy every page. Or for that matter, just the page with the Avalon incantation.
ESG
posted @ Fri, Sep 20, 2013 6:08:27 pm EDT from 50.52.3.11

ESG> A page is but a single spell. But a single spell does not the Grimorum make.

Recall when the Weird Sisters attacked the Magus, he used the Grimorum as a shield....
Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
If you are on the wrong road, progress means.. walking back to the right road; ..the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive man~~C.S. Lewis
posted @ Fri, Sep 20, 2013 5:52:49 pm EDT from 24.217.38.192

So, I found this in the archives.

"Geoff writes...

Why didn't the Magus just throw the Grimorum into the body of water the group was in before entering Avalon or burn it with a torch before entering Avalon, instead of forcing Finella to go into a life of hiding from Constantine and forcing Mary to do the same AND abandoning her son?

And, how could Mary just abandon her son like that? I mean, I've heard of the "Parental Abandonment" trope being used for the sake of good drama (and it did turn out to be good drama in Gargoyles), but I find it a little ridiculous that she believed that leaving her only son at such a young age was the best course of action.

Oh, and here's that trope if you're interested (I <3 TVTropes):
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ParentalAbandonment
Greg responds...

Destroying the Grimorum isn't that easy. And given that fact, the need to protect it and thus protect Tom from being attacked on Avalon by Constantine made Mary's decision necessary. It wasn't abandonment at all. It was her staking out a defensive position to protect her son."

I can understand The Magus not wanting to destroy the most complete collection of spells on the planet, but to say that it couldn't be destroyed? We've seen pages torn and burned easily enough. What is Greg talking about?
ESG
posted @ Fri, Sep 20, 2013 5:33:38 pm EDT from 50.52.3.11

Algernon> S'what you get for using abnormal text without using the comment preview button.

Todd> The message was meant to read "There will always be the Harvest, and there will always be the Reaper Man."
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Fri, Sep 20, 2013 3:34:05 pm EDT from 137.183.232.27

Well... That didn't work out the way I hoped.
Algernon
posted @ Fri, Sep 20, 2013 10:25:46 am EDT from 78.143.161.152

TODD> "Tʜᴇʀᴇ ᴡɪʟʟ ᴀʟᴡᴀʏs ʙᴇ ᴛʜᴇ Hᴀʀᴠᴇsᴛ, ᴀɴᴅ ᴛʜᴇʀᴇ ᴡɪʟʟ ᴀʟᴡᴀʏs ʙᴇ ᴛʜᴇ Rᴇᴀᴘᴇʀ Mᴀɴ."
Algernon
posted @ Fri, Sep 20, 2013 10:24:32 am EDT from 78.143.161.152

Re: LoK [SPOILER] I liked it well enough, though Korra herself got on my nerves something fierce, mostly because of the way she treated Tenzin and her dad (I couldn't care less about Mako). Then there was the portal-punching, oy. She really hasn't learned a thing. However, I loved the Asami/Bolin friendship, plus all the new characters introduced, even sketchy-as-hell Unaloq (sp?). Strange to say, I think I'm most interested in what's going on with Jinora and the statue of the first Avatar. [/SPOILER]
Melissa
Rewatching Gargoyles and blogging about it - http://ramblingsofpicturebox.blogspot.com/
posted @ Thu, Sep 19, 2013 7:57:14 pm EDT from 184.6.105.167

Tonight is the Harvest Moon. Just one more lunar cycle until the Hunter's Moon. (The first Hunter's Moon since the release of Gargoyles Season Two, Volume Two.)
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Thu, Sep 19, 2013 6:59:23 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

I liked it quite a bit. Each of the cast has a new direction to go in for a new story, all the new characters are fun and interesting, etc. No real complaints.
Harlan Phoenix
The enemy is clever. We're smaller but whatever. When we put it together, I'll form the head.
posted @ Thu, Sep 19, 2013 6:59:03 pm EDT from 24.210.68.171

[SPOILER]It wasn't all bad...but I didn't enjoy it much. So much of it seemed aimless, and the conflict for the two-parter was very weak. Spirits are angry, so to appease them open the gate to the spirit world...even though they're already making themselves corporeal? What's the point? And how does punching a ball of light solve anything?

And it was really annoying how Korra was acting. It really puts into perspective how she hasn't changed at all since episode 5. I hope they go somewhere with this...[SPOILER]
ESG
posted @ Thu, Sep 19, 2013 6:39:15 pm EDT from 50.52.3.11

Speaking of LoK Book 2, what did everyone think of it overall?

I'm definitely going to continue watching it but I didn't enjoy those first two episodes as much as I hoped I would.

[SPOILER]
Things I liked:
-The interaction between Asami and Bolin and their shared interaction with that eccentric rich guy. He was hilarious.
-Seeing Kya and Bumi and their interactions with Tenzin.
-Jinora initially noticing that something was up with that Avatar statue and going to investigate it later. Maybe she has some kind of aptitude for spiritual goings-on and will play a bigger role in this book?
-The way the air acolytes treated Kya and Bumi.
-The Eska/Desna/Bolin situation and several of Eska's lines which were very amusing i.e. "I'll protect you" although I didn't like at the end when she got mad when he hugged Korra...I know it was supposed to be funny but it fell flat for me.

Didn't like:
-A lot of Korra's interactions with other characters in general, but in particular Mako, Tenzin, and her father. I didn't like how snippy she was towards Mako (although there seems to be some improvement by the episode's end) and I didn't like how she just sent Tenzin packing after all they'd been through. I can understand her anger towards her father and I think she's totally justified but I didn't really enjoy watching it.
-The fact that Unalaq just totally SCREAMED "bad guy" from the very beginning, from his voice actor to his character design, etc. Wish they'd have been a little more subtle cause you could see that the end of the second episode was going to be something negative from a mile away. I'm hoping that I get surprised and that maybe he's genuinely a good guy (albeit with some misguided views of how to accomplish an ultimately positive goal) and not the tyrant that he seems to poised to be. [/SPOILER]
Rebel
posted @ Thu, Sep 19, 2013 3:01:49 pm EDT from 174.109.65.242

And Dread is up to "Monsters". Up to S2V2.

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=370493&page=4
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Thu, Sep 19, 2013 2:12:24 am EDT from 67.189.178.253

[SPOILER] I usually avoid saying this, but the Tropers are reading too much into it. Technically, Tenzin and his children are the last Airbenders and the next generation of Airbenders depends on them (I think), but there's no evidence that anyone is doing anything with them but assuming nature would "take its course" and they would eventually marry and reproduce. Anything else would be cruelty and abuse. And I don't know about you, but I wouldn't expect that from a children's cartoon. [/SPOILER]

And "taking one for the team" is essentially meaningless if we're discussing pure utilitarian species survival. You need a very large population of unrelated individuals to successfully restore a population, so a few extra babies won't make any difference in the long run.

Not to mention the social unrest that would be caused by a purely utilitarian reproduction system. When it comes down to it, I don't think people could totally throw aside their social values in large numbers just to breed for the sake of it.
Pterobat - [incisivis at gmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Sep 18, 2013 11:58:04 pm EDT from 96.52.113.234

Rebel: "However, time spent training is time spent NOT patrolling the city so this isn't something I imagine they'd do."

To be fair, so is time spent cooking, or reading, or watching TV. We've seen the Manhattan Clan do all of those.

But I am inclined to agree with your conclusion, if not your premises; for the purpose of protecting Manhattan, the clan has never needed to be any stronger than they already were and thus had no need to train.
Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Sep 18, 2013 8:18:51 pm EDT from 24.14.51.43

Brainiac > Neither notion unsettles me, personally. *shrug*

I think about it this way. If *I* was some kind of super-duper rare special snowflake flavored human and there were very few of us left, would I be willing to "take one for the team" and have a few kids by someone I wasn't really attracted to? Yeah, I would. I'd prefer artificial insemination but if that weren't an option I'd still go through with it for posterity's sake (though I would prefer to get blitzed before doing the deed if possible so I wouldn't have to think about it too much). I'd consider myself selfish if I *didn't* do it, but I wouldn't try to force other people in the same position to make the same choice or give them a guilt trip if they didn't do it, but I would absolutely offer encouragement and point out what's at stake and hope they'd be willing to make the same sacrifices that I would. I'm gay so my perspective may differ from other people's in light of the fact that I know that someday I want children that are biologically mine and that I was *already* going to have to get pregnant by a sperm donor that I wouldn't be attracted to, since he's a dude and all.

[SPOILER] I'm not convinced this is really a concern as it applies to gargoyles OR air benders, however. We now know that there are clans all over the world, so while gargoyles are still very much threatened or endangered, as long as the Bushido clan and London clan continue reproducing and don't get wiped out, and as long as the Mayan clan is able to raise their youngsters, the gargoyle population should slowly grow. So any individual efforts to pressure any individual gargoyle to breed don't really make sense. Now if there were, say, 10 gargoyles left alive, 5 females and 5 males, then I could see why a breeding program would make sense...but at the same time there's a reasonable chance all would be heterosexual and nature would take care of itself. If one of them wasn't, then I think he/she might voluntarily *choose* to "take one for the team" if they understand the dire-ness of the situation--as a gay human I can certainly say that I would, but I've never been a gay gargoyle and I don't know how, and to how far of an extent, their minds differ from ours. Lots of gay humans have married and reproduced with opposite sex humans because they didn't realize their own sexuality until much later or perhaps never at all, because they never really *saw* gay people and knew that gay was a thing.

It's not all about gay or not gay though. Maybe amongst those 5 females and 5 males there are 2 of opposite sex left over who simply wouldn't click under normal circumstances. Nevertheless when your options are limited you expand your horizons...or at least, humans do. You can see this in prisons when hetero people voluntarily sleep with, and form relationships with, people of the same sex...at least until they get out. Not sure if gargoyles would compromise in this way when there literally aren't any other options, but they might.

Even with Tenzin's kids, the kids are too young to really think about in that respect. There is no reason as of yet to assume that they WON'T marry and bring forth more airbenders. Now if they turn 35 (for the girls at least) and still haven't reproduced then I guess it's time to get worried and start talking about a "breeding program." But the chances of that being needed seem nil as of now because they all seem like normal kids who will grow into normal adults and have normal relationships and have babies...and presumably some of those babies would be air benders or (like in the situation of Sokka and Katara's parents yielding Katara) would be non-benders but air benders would show up later.

In short I think any kind of breeding program is largely unecessary except in REALLY specific situations that don't exist in either of these shows. FOr the situations in both Gargoyles and Avatar nature should resolve things on its own. [/SPOILER]
Rebel
posted @ Wed, Sep 18, 2013 7:24:09 pm EDT from 174.109.65.242

[SPOILER] I'm more concerned about why someone considers something very explicit and maintext in Korra a "fridge" concept, as if you had to walk away for a while for the BLATANT INTENTION OF THE SCENE to sink in.

Or it's just another instance of TV Tropes basically being stupid and being like "WAIT, TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD ISN'T ABOUT MURDERING HATEFUL FOWL? TROPE." Why is this site terrible?

It's a difficult comparison to make because from the perspective of in these worlds, wanting to preserve them does make sense for the troubled times their in if they'd want their species to survive. It's a harsh fact that if there's a people or species that is dwindling in numbers, they WILL be looked at very coldly for what is seen as the greater good. Is sacrificing basic dignity worth the survival of someone's greater species or creed? I dunno, but while it's not a mindset I necessarily endorse I don't get how inherently wrong the viewpoint itself is by itself. From a NARRATIVE perspective, however, they're completely opposite situations. Gargoyles avoids that sort of concept because the entire point is that the gargoyles are beings in their own right and surviving as a family. Korra raises the concept to dehumanize its Airbending protagonists and give a glimpse at how the culture is changed. I get your point, "Why would someone find how they treat the Airbenders creepy but still want gargoyles to breed?!"

Well, that's the sacrifice of insisting to fans gargoyles AREN'T human. And no, they're not human, but that causes some simplification among certain people to make an easier, if inaccurate, frame of reference. So Gargoyles fans are prejudiced against their own heroes? That's nothing new. It sounds like a different way to color what's already been long established: fans see and treat the gargoyles as if they're talking animals. But I think the Korra comparison doesn't really make any sort of new revelation.

I've spoken with Gargoyles fans who have an impressive level of actual prejudice, making their love of the series all the more ironic. [/SPOILER]
Harlan Phoenix
The enemy is clever. We're smaller but whatever. When we put it together, I'll form the head.
posted @ Wed, Sep 18, 2013 6:41:21 pm EDT from 76.181.3.34

Fair warning; the following post deals with a specific scene in the second episode of Book Two of Korra and how it compares to certain sentiments expressed in our own fandom. If you haven't watched it yet, you highlight the spoilers at your own risk.

[SPOILER] I was on TVTropes and ran across a Fridge Horror entry for Book Two of Korra. "The treatment of Tenzin's family at the Southern Airbending Temple. They were trying to be courteous, but it appears to be somewhat misplaced in a sense. First off, they didn't even pay attention to Kya and Bumi and even assumed that they were Tenzin's servants rather then his siblings. Secondly, the way they referred to his children as "The next generation of airbenders", it seemed like they weren't actually valuing them as human beings, but more as a charismatic endangered species that needed saving, like pandas. In a sense, they're treated more like breeding stock rather then children."

If that unsettles you but applying breeding programs to save the gargoyle species doesn't, you might want to determine where the disconnect lies, because it seems like much the same issue to me. To anyone who braved these spoilers, what do you think? [/SPOILER]
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Wed, Sep 18, 2013 2:50:11 pm EDT from 137.183.232.27

JTS > That's a good point about Macbeth demonstrating that humans can reach a level where they can reasonably challenge a gargoyle, but at the same time, who knows what a gargoyle could do if they consistently trained and conditioned themselves? Presumably the members of the Manhattan clan were all trained as warriors in their up-and-coming years but there doesn't seem to be much indication that they employ any kind of ongoing training currently, unless this is indicated somewhere and I forgot about it.

It's weird to imagine such a thing but if the Manhattan clan was doing some serious training every night, I don't think guys like MacBeth would fare as well. However, time spent training is time spent NOT patrolling the city so this isn't something I imagine they'd do. Arguably they do get SOME training as they are foiling crimes but the average run-of-the-mill mugger or troublemaker seems to scamper off at the first sign of a gargoyle rather than stick around and fight back (understandably) but there are probably plenty of nights when they patrol the city without incident and they might as well have been in the gym.

In terms of gargoyle fitness and athletic ability, the Manhattan clan is probably the gargoyle equivalent of someone who runs three or four miles a week and hits a punching bag or goes to a pilates class once in a while. I.e. the gargoyle version of an extremely casual athlete at best. And yet one of them is STILL a formidable opponent for even the most trained and conditioned human, simply because gargoyles are just naturally so much stronger, faster, tougher, etc. Imagine how terrifying Goliath would be if he spent even an hour or two a night really busting it out in a gym, hitting punching bags, running 40s, etc. But he's never really had a need to do so because he's just so powerful already compared to most humans.

If humans and gargoyles were to play any kind of sport against each other I think the humans would have to come up with a way to use gargoyles' extra appendages against them.

I agree with the assessment that gargoyles might be worse at dodgeball due to overall more surface area to hit.

I also think they wouldn't stand a chance in competitive swimming because of the drag created by their wings. The lanes in swimming aren't wide enough for them to actually open their wings and use them to swim with so even though a gargoyle might be faster at swimming than a human in, say, the ocean; in an olympic swimming competition I think they'd lose because of wing drag.
Rebel
posted @ Wed, Sep 18, 2013 2:32:15 pm EDT from 174.109.65.242

Just to quickly pitch in on the sport thing, I think in some sports, they might try things to balance it out, i.e. Gargoyles have smaller teams or play with handicaps, to balance the human players chances. This may no work for everything, but it could be that some sports give things like that a try. Plus as figures likeMacBeth prove; with training humans can reach a level of fitness high enough to engage a Gargoyle, suggesting that athletes could reduce the Gargoyles physical advantage, though not remove it, with time and training.
JTS
JTS
posted @ Wed, Sep 18, 2013 2:03:29 pm EDT from 82.8.27.101

B!> I watched several of the plot-relevant episodes, including first and last, and read synopses of the others. I didn't like them much. But that probably has at least something to do with my being a big fan of the book series it's based on.

Forcing myself to look at it from a non-disgruntled-book-fan perspective, I can admit it was okay as a show on its own merits, though far from great. But...ugh. I should shut up now before I turn this into a rant about everything I disliked about that show. (The music was pretty, though, from what I remember.)

But you're right, Marina's design did look similar to Maggie. Didn't notice that before. And actually, now that I think about it, the design for the bats' feet looked kind of gargoyle-ish. Though I don't think it was an intentional reference. Oh, and the book did have the main characters roosting on some church gargoyles at one point, and discussing their relevance to humans as protectors from evil (and serving a similar purpose for the bats, frightening their enemies and giving them a safe haven). Don't remember if the show adapted that scene.
Ross
posted @ Wed, Sep 18, 2013 11:52:22 am EDT from 184.9.249.94

Neill> Lexington strolls along on all fours fairly often, I believe. And almost any time we see a gargoyle running it is on all fours.

Or by crawl do you mean hands/knees as opposed to hands/feet?
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" - Sevarius, "Louse"
posted @ Wed, Sep 18, 2013 11:03:34 am EDT from 99.92.109.252

Today I got my S2V2 set with the help of B!. A big shout-out to you, really appreciate your help!
Can't wait to put it in my DVD player at the weekend.

Now has it ever been stated how fast the average Gargoyle can run? Or crawl? We rarely see them crawl to begin with. Awakening Part 1 and right now I don't remember another episode with a Gargoyle crawling.
Neill - [neillgargoyle(a)gmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Sep 18, 2013 9:22:10 am EDT from 95.91.253.8

I suppose gargoyles would be most fairly pitted against humans in games of skill like bowling, pool/snooker, or chess or poker. (They're 'sports' if they're on the sports channels, right? ;p ) Something that requires fine motor coordination or wits rather than height or brute strength... Fencing? Skeet-shooting? Calf-roping? I suppose I'm getting back into things that give gargs an edge as far as reflexes though...

On another topic altogether, has anyone seen a short Disney series called Silverwing? (It's about a colony of bats.) There are a couple things in there that seem to give a nod to Gargoyles, notably, one of the main characters resembles Maggie pretty heavily. I'll let you see if you see others yourselves.

ALSO: I've come up one set of S2v2 extra... Is there anyone on the European side of the pond that still wants one? If so, give me a buzz!
B! - [prplbeedoo at yahoo dot com]
I knew violence should've been my first resort...
posted @ Wed, Sep 18, 2013 8:55:41 am EDT from 213.93.186.25

Algernon/Matt> Check Greg's ramble on The Mirror. They picked the wolfhound because it was the biggest breed they could think of.

Chip> Or whatever the proper term for the feather-like wing forms London gargs have is. Protofeathers? Pseudofeathers? Something else?
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Wed, Sep 18, 2013 8:54:03 am EDT from 137.183.232.27

I'd imagine that the London Clan in particular is bad at swimming. Two words: Wet. Feathers.
Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
If you are on the wrong road, progress means.. walking back to the right road; ..the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive man~~C.S. Lewis
posted @ Wed, Sep 18, 2013 8:35:38 am EDT from 24.217.38.192

I think humans might have the edge on gargoyles in dodgeball. Less surface area and all.

I wonder which species is better at swimming. I guess the Loch Ness Clan is better than the average human, but other gargoyles...?

Algernon> I never even thought about the Bronx/Irish wolfhound connection. I wonder if Greg ever mentioned it. You gotta admit it does lend some credence to the thought that Bronx is the original Hound reborn.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" - Sevarius, "Louse"
posted @ Wed, Sep 18, 2013 3:46:48 am EDT from 99.92.109.252

Harlan > True, I neglected to think about that.

Todd > Ha! I remember that; that was a funny scene.

Chip > Yeah I guess that's about the only thing we could beat them in.
Rebel
posted @ Tue, Sep 17, 2013 10:51:14 pm EDT from 174.109.65.242

Gargoyle v. Human foosball tournaments.
Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
If you are on the wrong road, progress means.. walking back to the right road; ..the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive man~~C.S. Lewis
posted @ Tue, Sep 17, 2013 9:57:30 pm EDT from 24.217.38.192

Rebel>"Although I think humans and gargoyles could be equal competitors in sports like tennis where the competitors don't get physical with each other."

...No? It doesn't matter if there's physical contact if there's still a discernible strength and agility advantage.
Harlan Phoenix
The enemy is clever. We're smaller but whatever. When we put it together, I'll form the head.
posted @ Tue, Sep 17, 2013 9:53:24 pm EDT from 76.2.66.79

Elisa suggested to Goliath at the end of "Awakening Part Five" that on their next night out together, they might catch a Giants game - but we never find out if they did or not, and Goliath (naturally) leaped to the wrong conclusion about the nature of the "Giants". (I can only wonder how the clan would have felt about any team known as the "Vikings".)
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Tue, Sep 17, 2013 9:36:25 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

Here's a lighthearted thought (that I'm sure some of you will find boring).

NFL just had week 2 and it got me to wondering if any Manhattan clan members would have been sports fans if they ever started watching sports on TV. I doubt Goliath and Angela would, but I think the trio could become sports fans and I think Hudson would have eventually started liking sports as well if his fondness for celebrity hockey is any indication. (I don't remember if any of the gargoyles ever mentioned sports in any of the episodes but it's been awhile since I've watched).

If you think they'd be sports fans which gargoyle do you think would like which sport? I think if Lex were an NFL fan as of 2013 he'd be a big fan of smaller guys like Danny Woodhead and Russell Wilson who can succeed despite everyone around them being HUUUGE.

Post-2198, would any gargoyles play professional sports? Would they have separate leagues for gargoyles for practical (i.e. scheduling) reasons and because of their physical differences?

I think at first a few gargoyles might play on human sports teams and I bet some humans would draw parallels to the racial integration of human sports but I think eventually the inconvenience of scheduling around stone sleep and the obvious strength advantage that gargoyles have plus the fact that they have wings and a tail which could be used to their advantage in some sports would result in gargoyles having their own leagues--if only so that humans would still stand a chance at winning any sport! Although I think humans and gargoyles could be equal competitors in sports like tennis where the competitors don't get physical with each other.
Rebel
posted @ Tue, Sep 17, 2013 9:26:07 pm EDT from 174.109.65.242

I wonder if that was a coincidence or a foreshadowing. (Depends on how much thought the production team had given to "The Hound of Ulster" when the animators were at work on "The Mirror".)
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Tue, Sep 17, 2013 8:12:11 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

You know, looking at that pic and rewatching The Mirror made me realize something...

Puck turned Bronx into an Irish Wolfhound. :D
Algernon
"Don't blink. Don't even blink. Blink and you're dead. They are fast. Faster than you can believe. Don't turn your back, don't look away, and DON'T blink." ~Tenth Doctor.
posted @ Tue, Sep 17, 2013 5:59:23 pm EDT from 109.78.252.231

Ignore just wanted to see the Bronx as a dog pic.
Algernon
"Don't blink. Don't even blink. Blink and you're dead. They are fast. Faster than you can believe. Don't turn your back, don't look away, and DON'T blink." ~Tenth Doctor.
posted @ Tue, Sep 17, 2013 5:37:17 pm EDT from 109.78.252.231

DC tends to give a long shelf life to its characters born out of other mediums (see Harley Quinn and Jimmy Olsen).

Personally, needlessly gritty Kaldur'ahm wasn't nearly as great as Crazy Jungle Tula.
Harlan Phoenix
The enemy is clever. We're smaller but whatever. When we put it together, I'll form the head.
posted @ Tue, Sep 17, 2013 4:54:13 pm EDT from 76.2.66.79

Hey guys, I just watched "Justice League: The Flashpoint Paradox" last night and I highly recommend it. I thought it was really cool that Aqualad made an appearance. It's cool that characters that Greg Weisman (and team) created are still be used today and not forgotten.
Anthony Tini
posted @ Tue, Sep 17, 2013 10:20:11 am EDT from 159.240.11.216

ANTIYONDER - [Plus it was one of the few episodes not to deal with the gargoyles/humans relation.]

Yes, I thought that was a point in its favor (if a negative one). I've mentioned before how I think the new production team misread "The Journey" and assumed that the whole series was supposed to be about that element (and how "Clan-Building" showed otherwise, that Greg Weisman's own plans for the series would have provided far more variety).

Though there's still the plothole of why Thailog and the Clones are all coming down with that illness at the same time, if it's supposed to be a design flaw in their cloning, since Thailog was "born" over a year before the Clones were.

I also agree about Goliath's opening quote for "Ransom" not being too accurate; what Doyle was after was the mayorship rather than money. They weren't even asking Xanatos for money, but just for a gargoyle (though if they can break into the Eyrie Building easily enough to catch Alex, they could probably break in easily enough to capture the entire clan....).
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Tue, Sep 17, 2013 8:08:39 am EDT from 108.226.1.5

Ha! Harlan Phoenix, I'm right there with you, bud.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" - Sevarius, "Louse"
posted @ Tue, Sep 17, 2013 4:50:12 am EDT from 99.92.109.252

I'd like to redact my childish mockery of this grown man's small, wimpish voice that makes Linkara sound like a commanding, masculine viking. Because after finishing the review, I realize that this is some of the most brilliant fandom-oriented performance art I've ever seen.

I mean, think about it. I'm no fan of internet reviewers (hating That Guy With The Glasses pretty passionately and, at most, enjoy Spoony's Final Fantasy reviews as a guilty pleasure of catharsis and Red Letter Media for discussing film like grown adult men), so I was struck at first by how incompetent this guy seemed to be when discussing this property he dedicated an entire video too.

But then I realized the hidden genius. This entire thing is obviously a commentary on the psychology of an internet reviewer.

I mean, it's subtle at first. How he knows about specific things concerning the production of the show (even linking Michael Reaves with something he loves!) yet does little slip ups like calling the gargoyles "mythical beings." It seems like a casual slip up anyone not super into the show would make, I'll admit, but the more it pulls back the seams the more obvious it becomes.

I think what tips his hand the most, while also making his point pretty clear, is how he defines the third season almost ENTIRELY by the departure of series co-creator Greg Weisman. Then, without even a hint of irony, criticizes ALL of the characterization choices within Goliath Chronicles...with a predominant focus on The Journey, Greg Weisman's own episode! Criticizing Macbeth's less black and white portrayal right after praising the show for its complexity?

It's actually a pretty brilliant satire on the modern genre fan (and sprinkling superfluous references to Young Justice and Ultimate X-Men don't hurt either). He presents himself with immense TANGIBLE knowledge of what he's talking about, the production circumstances, creative staff and so forth, but when actually made to sit down and analyze the consistency from a perspective of character depth, emotion, and realism, he flounders. Trapped in his own limited frame of reference, he also adopts that (adeptly faked!) unspeakably horrible voice as a way of cementing the caricature. He's a flawless parody of the internet reviewer: purporting oneself as an expert, but lacking any evidence for any real social or emotional intelligence.

A lovely performance art that very aptly criticizes the modern wave of internet reviewers.
Harlan Phoenix
The enemy is clever. We're smaller but whatever. When we put it together, I'll form the head.
posted @ Mon, Sep 16, 2013 10:57:10 pm EDT from 76.2.66.79

ohmygodthisman'svoice
Harlan Phoenix
The enemy is clever. We're smaller but whatever. When we put it together, I'll form the head.
posted @ Mon, Sep 16, 2013 10:13:27 pm EDT from 76.2.66.79

ESG> Ehh. Genesis Undone at least had a strong emotional feel with the downfall of the clones and Thailog's parting words.

Plus it was one of the few episodes not to deal with the gargoyles/humans relation.

Only good thing about Ransom is Lex and Alex's friendship. As mentioned frequently, one problem is the opening comment pointing out the evils men does for money, even though money isn't the motivator for the main villain. Plus there's Fox's out of character outburst.

And then there's Todd's comment on a story potential to be had that went nowhere.
Antiyonder
posted @ Mon, Sep 16, 2013 9:16:11 pm EDT from 192.182.155.221

"Ransom" isn't a terrible episode. It's not very good mind you, but it's not all bad either. And unlike "Genesis Undone" It didn't give me a headache when I watched it, so there's that.
ESG
posted @ Mon, Sep 16, 2013 8:18:56 pm EDT from 50.52.3.11

Speaking of "The Goliath Chronicles", a thought I've had on "Ransom".

Now, what we usually think of when we think of "Ransom" is how infamously out-of-character Fox was in that episode. But the other thing that stands out to me about that story is that it marks the "Goliath Chronicles" production team coming up with a good concept and then handling it poorly: the gargoyles as an issue in the mayoral campaign.

Doyle's manipulating the gargoyle situation for his own ends might have been all the more interesting as one anti-gargoyle character (unlike Castaway and his followers), whose real interest isn't getting rid of the gargoyles (though he clearly didn't like them) but in using them for other goals. He accuses the incumbent mayor of being unable to handle the gargoyles, and exploits the public's fear of them in the hopes of getting their support so that they'll elect him the new mayor. In fact, he could have become (if handled better) a modern counterpart to Constantine, Duncan, and Canmore - just as they went after the gargoyles not just because of their dislike for them but also for political reasons (though in this case, to deny their help to their rivals for the Scottish throne), so Doyle goes after the gargoyles to create a menace that the public will see him as a defense against. And then, of course, Doyle carries out his criminal scheme to kidnap Alex, is exposed, presumably goes to prison, and the election is never again mentioned in the remainder of the series. (We don't know whether Doyle was a member of one of the major parties - at least the "Goliath Chronicles" production team, despite their many mistakes, did the right thing in not identifying him with one - or an independent candidate. If the former, his party would clearly be frantically disavowing him, no doubt fearing all the while that until the public forgets the Alexander kidnapping, they won't be able to win an election for dogcatcher in Manhattan.)

Of course, such a candidate might have seemed redundant as more than a one-shot character to the new production team, since Castaway was supplying the demagogue role (though his goal really was getting rid of the gargoyles, not rising the public's fear and hatred of them to the mayorship) and Margot the civilian enemy role (though she wasn't running for office). Maybe that's one reason why they didn't do anything with the election past that episode.

(We also still have the question of how a political challenger got the means to break into the Eyrie Building - which already has strong defenses, and Xanatos would have all the more reason to beef them up and stay vigilant after the gargoyles moved back in - just like that, which "Ransom" never bothered answering, either. If Doyle can break in so easily, just think how much more easily the gargoyles' more formidable opponents, like Demona, Thailog, or Castaway can do the same. Unless Doyle had someone powerful backing him, and the episode says nothing about that.)
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Mon, Sep 16, 2013 7:00:25 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

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