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Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending January 19, 2014

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I was not just talking about what I think happened in-universe, but how I think things should have played out. There were many points we were discussing and it probably got mixed up.
ESG

ESG: Well, this is why you don't make assumptions about people. I acknowledge that the show isn't perfect. In fact, I make comics acknowledging the show's faults all the time. You assumed I was glorifying the show and ignoring its faults, and that's not true. I think that perfect things aren't perfect, and that's what makes them so great.

We were debating something that isn't in the show that you feel should've been included. Arguing about whether or not anything could've been changed to accommodate that (like the sleep spell) isn't going to get us any closer to the answer. The show is already set in stone; what we were trying to figure out was what happened (if anything) between the gargoyles leaving the castle and their arrival at the Clock Tower. Arguing about the sleep spell/"illusion spell" was, in my opinion, just sidetracking the discussion.

D. Taina
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..." -Shari

Was that too harsh? You said "talking about what he could've/should've done is, in my opinion, pointless. We can argue all night about things we would like to change in the show but it's not going to actually change anything."

How else is one supposed to take that, except to think that you are uninterested in acknowledging the show's faults?

It's not as if I meant to insult your person. But your comment seemed sychophantic to me.

ESG

ESG: "Sycophantic," hmm? I won't even dignify that with a response.

Brainiac: But of course! Why sit and complain about the forehead when I can make a funny comic about it?

D. Taina
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..." -Shari

D. Taina> "For example, I'd love to fix Demona's forehead in Sanctuary, but I can't do that, so why bother arguing about it?"

Especially when you can make an amusing comic about it instead, right?

Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

The gargoyles value their protectorate, and by extension the people who live in it. They would be very concerned about the damage done to the city and its people by the sleep spell. Therefore, the ramifications of the sleep spell should have been explored more, instead of hardly even mentioned by the cast.

And I am not talking about what I think Oberon the character should have done. I am talking about what I think the writers should have made Oberon done. Your attitude is coming off as extremely sycophantic here. Don't talk about what could have happened? In other words, don't talk about any way the show could have been better? In other words, glorify its successes and ignore its failures? It's not as if the failings of a work aren't also worthy of discussion, even if they'll never change.

ESG

ESG: I think Oberon is proud, not childish. Two different things, but they go hand in hand sometimes.

I've never claimed to have evidence, only speculation based on the evidence that is available to us. To claim I have "evidence" about something that isn't in the show would imply that I was somehow involved in the episodes, or somehow had access to insider info, which is just plain silly. We're just fans, and we can speculate to our hearts' content, but that's it. Any fan who claims to have "evidence" about anything outside the episodes, the comics, Ask Greg and GargWiki is trying to sell you something.

It's not about the "sanctity of life" (where on Earth did you get that?) but about their protectorate. Every gargoyle is different, but in Goliath's case, he's been shown to value life. But he's also a warrior who will take a life if he absolutely has to. See The Price, where he killed "Macbeth" because he was about to take out his clan.

And I'm not going to argue with you about you think Oberon should've done. Whether you like it or not, he did the sleep spell, and talking about what he could've/should've done is, in my opinion, pointless. We can argue all night about things we would like to change in the show but it's not going to actually change anything. For example, I'd love to fix Demona's forehead in Sanctuary, but I can't do that, so why bother arguing about it?

Let's just speculate on what's already there, shall we?

D. Taina
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..." -Shari

D. Taina> Think what you want about Oberon's intelligence. He seems rather childish to me, and his failure to understand the consequences of his sleep spell is another strike against him.

A lack of evidence usually isn't evidence of course. But in this case the evidence that should have been there was absent. When all it would take is an offhand remark to remedy that, that's highly suggestive. When you also figure in the weak evidence against the idea that the gargoyles did anything after fighting Oberon, for you to say that the very opposite happened can only be taken as speculation.

But the sleeping people were relevant to the story. To ignore them is to do a disservice to the characters. The Manhattan Clan cares deeply for the sanctity of life. Many lives were logically lost or in jeopardy. Therefore, the sleeping people needed to be focused on more. If the episode didn't have time to focus on them Oberon should have used an illusion spell.

ESG

Brainiac: Well, I was talking about The Gathering: Part II. Part I is really more about setting the stage. Can you imagine trying to cram all of that into twenty minutes? Yikes!
D. Taina
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..." -Shari

DTaina> "You can only do so much in twenty minutes..."

Which is why The Gathering was a two-parter.

Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

ESG: A lack of evidence isn't the same thing as evidence. What is real, tangible evidence is what's in each frame of the episode, the GargWiki timeline, and Ask Greg. Everything outside of that is pure speculation, not evidence. We shouldn't make assumptions about the characters (or the writers) based on what only amounts to speculation. This includes, but is not limited to: making assumptions the characters, Oberon's intelligence, and the writers' intentions then and now. Personally, I feel that saying that Oberon isn't intelligent really denigrates the character, the entire Third Race for following him, and of course, the entire conflict of the episode.

If something is not in an episode, as I've said before, it is due to a multitude of reasons, the more important being that it was irrelevant to the main story and best left to the audience's imagination. This is how fiction works. In this case, the main plot was about Alexander's attempted kidnapping and the people who came to his rescue. Could Goliath have shown more concern for the humans? Sure. Could Xanatos have done more? Sure. Could we have seen the gargoyles try to help? Sure. But I ask myself: how would this have been relevant to the story? I feel that none of this would've added to the episode, and instead would've just taken time away from more important stuff, like: Owen and Puck being revealed to be one and the same, Fox's magic powers, Xanatos' relationship with his father, Goliath and the others returning home, Angela joining the clan, Xanatos owing a debt to Goliath, etc. In my opinion, all of these would've suffered if the episode had gone the way you wanted it to.

You can only do so much in twenty minutes, and I feel that the episodes covered exactly what was important and left the less-important stuff to our imagination.

It is fun to speculate on what could've been, as long as we keep calling it what it is: speculation.

D. Taina
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..." -Shari

Matt> According to the timeline, the battle was nearly OVER by midnght.

Algernon>To some extent I want to agree with you about the gargoyles helping afterwards. I mean, the gargoyles would probably see the damage. It just doesn't fit well with the rest of the evidence.

Regardless, At this point I can accept that there was little if anything the gargoyles could have done in the aftermath.

Regarding Xanatos, wouldn't requesting his help then be a great way to test his new loyalties? What's the worst Xanatos would do? Mug some people? Commit corporate espianage? I don't think he would need the gargoyle's prompting for that. Not that it matters much. I can accept that the gargoyles were exhausted and too wary of Xanatos to consider asking him for help at that moment. We were just talking about ways the gargoyles could have helped, and I thought I might as well bring this up.

Your explanation of Goliath's choice makes a lot of sense. I acknowledge that if you interpret the evidence in just the right way, you can justify the gargoyle's actions in The Gathering as entirely correct. However, I still think the show dropped the ball on showing us that their actions were entirely correct. And I still think that Oberon should have used an illusion spell if the show wasn't going to dwell on the damage.

ESG

I think we also should consider the possibility that dawn was not all that far off after the battle ended. Looking at the GargWiki timeline, we know the battle ended well after midnight. And it was summertime so daylight was not far off. The gargoyles clearly would not want to stay at the Eyrie during the day, so, while they were not exactly rushed, there may have been very little time to do anything in the city before they needed to get home to sleep themselves.

I have always been most worried about Morgan. He falls asleep right at Oberon's feet and then Oberon goes giant and stomps around a lot. Morgan was quite lucky not to get squashed.

Also, the stone by night spell from City Of Stone did not have the same effects as a gargoyles stone sleep. The humans were magically turned to actual stone, not the stone-like substance gargoyles sleep as. So, the humans did not likely heal or dream as gargoyles do. They were more in stasis. Frozen and lifeless until dawn (at which point they would revert, not burst out of their stone skin). Now, Owen's fist is made of the same substance as a sleeping gargoyle due the nature of the spell (and Hudson's stone skin). Kinda interesting that Owen has human, gargoyle and third race aspects.

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" - Sevarius, "Louse"

ESG> I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that the Clan tried to help deal with the aftermath as best they could off-screen, between leaving the castle and arriving back at the clock tower. Even if it's never explicitly mentioned on-screen. A 22-minute format demands one budget storytelling time pretty strictly, and you'll never have enough to deal with every ramification of a fairy king stomping around Manhattan Godzilla-style.

And even then, as others have pointed out, the Clan are woefully unqualified to render medical assistance to injured humans. Even something as seemingly simple and well-intentioned as moving someone out of a car wreck can do more harm than good. Never mind trying to help people lying on operating tables.

As someone who has done a bit of First Aid training, if you ever stumble upon somebody who's injured or unconscious, best thing you can possibly do is go find someone more qualified to administer aid than attempt to do so yourself.

As for why Goliath didn't demand Oberon wake everyone sooner, I can think of a couple of reasons...

1. Goliath didn't want to risk enraging and already frustrated and testy Oberon in case he did something even WORSE like cursing every inhabitant of Manhattan to never sleep again, so that they all eventually go insane and die of exhaustion. Goliath's not really in a position to demand ANYTHING of Oberon and he knows it.

2. Being as much a creature of the pre-modern world as Oberon, it never occurred to Goliath to take into account the countless deaths resulting from vehicular accidents/operations/folks not taking their insulin on time/what have you.

3. It had already been several hours since the sleep-spell was cast and odds are most people who had suffered life-threatening injuries when it was first cast were already dead. Goliath may have figured that the damage was already done and it would make no difference whether everyone woke up now or in a few hours.

These are just a couple of ideas off the top of my head, I'm sure everyone could add at least one more if they thought about it. Any, all, none or some combination of such explanations could be behind Goliath's reasoning.

Though I'll concede it's also possible Goliath wasn't able to give to matter much thought at the time. It's easy for me, sitting calmly at my laptop on a lazy Sunday afternoon and having slept on the matter, to be all cool and analytical about what Goliath would/could/should have done in that situation.

Being mentally and physically exhausted and shell shocked from just having fought a life or death battle with a nigh-omnipotent being, I can't honestly blame Goliath for not being mentally all there.

As for why the Gargs never asked Xanatos to help deal with the damage? Well Goliath said it himself...

"And I should trust this promise, after all that has happened between us?"

Goliath may be more willing to give David the benefit of the doubt post-Gathering, but enough to trust him with the lives of countless unconscious innocent bystanders?

Algernon

"You also need to remember something else, Oberon was putting the humans to sleep so that they wouldn't interfere, or be harmed in the conflict. Oberon has a big ego, and a lot of room to grow, but he genuinely likes mortals."

He's also not very bright. And with his short temper, It would not be surprising for him to cast an indirectly fatal spell on an impulse.

"How do you know the sleep spell didn't also cause all the car engines to "sleep" as well, ei. all the vehicles just shut down, the trains to stop, so on and so forth. There would still be car accidents, but there would be FAR few fatalities, then your original premise indicates." I think I could just as easily accuse you of assuming facts not in the evidence. This is largely unfounded hypothesizing. Oberon hardly knows a thing about machines. I doubt his spell would include them, and if Greg Weisman actually thought of that you'd think he'd mention it in his ramble.

"Indeed, the whole problem WITH your premise, is that it assumes facts not in evidence." Single. Step. Of. Inference.

"I just A) don't believe that it was as bad as you're suggesting, considering Oberon was specifically casting the spell so that the mortals would NOT get harmed in the conflict. Or that the conflict would not interfere with their lives."

Oberon is not intelligent. In a time without cars and little hope of saving mortally wounded patients, Oberon's spell would not be terribly harmful. Oberon is not accustomed to the future, and likely wouldn't change his spell to accomodate for it. Even in the past though, I think lots of people would be injured at least, and some could die from falling off hills or falling off mounts or drowning or choking on food or a dozen other hazard.

"And you're certainly wrong about Greg Weisman not thinking about it; because he states it right here:

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=3442"

Acknowledging the possibility (and calling it minor) years after the fact is quite different from having the repercussions in mind while making the episode. I seriously don't think he thought it through. For example, every time we see Oberon from now on the gargoyles shouldn't be like "He caused us trouble in the past, but he has good intentions and all's well that ends well." It's more like "hey, there goes the mass murderer we have to be nice to."

"But I think your interpretation is overestimating the death toll."

I really don't think it is. Let's just focus on the car crashes. More than 7 million people lived in New York in 1997. There would be hundreds of thousands of cars on the road. If you assume that even 1% of the car crashes were fatal, you have your thousands of casualties.

ESG

Chip: Err...I'm not sure I can buy your first point at all. There's no evidence, not even remotely, that Oberon either would or could extend his "Sleep!" spell to machines.

Both the way the scene is portrayed, and the way Greg describes it in the quoted post, expresses an Oberon who is taking the quickest and most expedient method to prevent interference.

So I think you're vastly inflating Oberon's level of concern for mortals in this instance. He cares about their lives...in the aggregate. Not typically, unless they make themselves known to him in some special way, on the individual level. Keeping them out of the business at the Eyrie Tower seemed the most effective way to keep as many as possible out of harm's way. If a few hundred die as a result, it would seem a minor matter.

He isn't casting a complicated spell (powerful, yes, but not complicated). It's a simple command for a simple result, and if it also included some heretofore unknown "magical EMP blast" effect, I think we would have seen some remote clue of it.

In addition, wouldn't most vehicles contain iron? I admit, I'm hardly an expert in this, but I'd think it would make shutting engines down beyond the power of any Child.

And finally, in addition to possessing no on-screen evidence, your theory is directly at odds with what is portrayed on-screen. Immediately after Oberon casts the spell, we SEE a car crash into a light post, and we SEE another crash into a truck. I'm pretty sure we're meant to infer that that was what happened to most moving vehicles that night.

While I may not agree 100% with ESG's conclusion, I think it's pretty difficult to seriously argue with his premise. Hundreds of people died that night, at minimum. To suggest otherwise is to willfully ignore the evidence on-screen.

Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"If someone ever tells me it's a mistake to have hope...well then, I'll just tell them they're wrong. And I'll keep telling them until they believe. No matter how many times it takes." - Madoka Kaname

ESG> You also need to remember something else, Oberon was putting the humans to sleep so that they wouldn't interfere, or be harmed in the conflict. Oberon has a big ego, and a lot of room to grow, but he genuinely likes mortals.

How do you know the sleep spell didn't also cause all the car engines to "sleep" as well, ei. all the vehicles just shut down, the trains to stop, so on and so forth. There would still be car accidents, but there would be FAR few fatalities, then your original premise indicates.

Indeed, the whole problem WITH your premise, is that it assumes facts not in evidence.

I'm not bashing your line of thought. And I have always assumed that there were fatalities that night. People on Operating tables, a handful of car accidents, etc...

I just A) don't believe that it was as bad as you're suggesting, considering Oberon was specifically casting the spell so that the mortals would NOT get harmed in the conflict. Or that the conflict would not interfere with their lives.

And you're certainly wrong about Greg Weisman not thinking about it; because he states it right here:

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=3442

But I think your interpretation is overestimating the death toll.

Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. ~~C.S. Lewis

"1. The way I see it, Goliath already got what he wanted out of Oberon, and there really was no need to push the issue. The humans would awaken in the morning as per his decree. It would've been bad if he hadn't brought it up at all, but he did, which shows that he cares about the humans."

Thousands of people likely died before dawn. Many could have gotten help if there were people awake to help them. Goliath cares; he cares enough to try to prevent thousands of pointless deaths, even at the cost of possibly angering a god (although after physically attacking said god, I think that ship had sailed).

"I'll grant you that, and I'm sure the gargoyles felt bad about it. Just because we didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen."

But we don't see any of this. In fact we see evidence to the contrary, since the gargoyles seem in a rather good mood once Oberon desists, and that mood carries all the way to dawn. It takes a lot of distorting just for you to establish what the episode should have made obvious.

"3. Does it matter if Xanatos helped or not?"

Not really. It matters that the Gargoyles didn't ask him for help. We're talking about ways they could have helped people; cashing in their favor with an extremely wealthy and resouceful guy seems like it might work. But we can drop this point, this is just a minor part of the bigger problem; that the off-screen tragedy is not acknowledged.

ESG

1. The way I see it, Goliath already got what he wanted out of Oberon, and there really was no need to push the issue. The humans would awaken in the morning as per his decree. It would've been bad if he hadn't brought it up at all, but he did, which shows that he cares about the humans.

2. I'll grant you that, and I'm sure the gargoyles felt bad about it. Just because we didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

3. Does it matter if Xanatos helped or not?

Okay, it's 5 AM, and I'm going to bed. It was good posting here again!

D. Taina
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true.." -Shari

D. Taina> At this point I am not sure if the gargoyles could have helped all that much in the aftermath, and even less sure that they could have known how to help. So fine, I'd like to look into it more, but I think you've convinced me in that regard.

"Why would he protest? You expected him to complain about Oberon not making the humans wake up faster? He's already on his way out. You wanna piss him off?"

We are talking about a whole lot of people in jeopardy here. What's the worst that Oberon could do? Punish Goliath for his impertinence (even when he's already been so impertinent)? I think Goliath would risk that for the greater good.

"2. Maybe because it's not the huge tragedy you're trying to make it out to be."

Let me repeat. Hundreds of thousands of cars crashing all at once. Hundreds of doctors fallen asleep while operating. Take a single step of inference. There would be damage, there would be death, and whether the Manhattan Clan could do anything about it or not, I think they would be very sad about it.

"3. Who says he needed the gargoyles to ask? He needs their permission now? Since when?"

The better question would be, what says he did anything at all? David Xanatos is not known for his random acts of altruism, especially ones that nobody will ever know about.

ESG

ESG: I know, but I'm sorry, I just think you're making too many assumptions about both the characters' and the writers' intentions. Maybe that's not your intention, but that's how you're coming across to me. What I would like to hear is your opinion about what the gargoyles were supposed to do in the aftermath. It's one thing to state in general terms that "the gargoyles should've helped people" and another to go into detail. So tell us: what did you want them to do, why did you want them to do it, how would it have changed anything, and why was it important to show it? I'll wait.

As for your other points:

1. Why would he protest? You expected him to complain about Oberon not making the humans wake up faster? He's already on his way out. You wanna piss him off?
2. Maybe because it's not the huge tragedy you're trying to make it out to be.
3. Who says he needed the gargoyles to ask? He needs their permission now? Since when?

D. Taina
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..." -Shari

D. Taina> I have presented what I believe is substantial evidence in favor of the gargoyles not having done anything after fighting Oberon. If none of it has convinced you, then I don't know what to say.

As for trying to help people possibly making things worse...again, I'm no medical expert. I can't weigh the distribution and likelihood of various injuries. I suppose when you put it like that I might accept that the gargoyles were better off not helping the people. But that still leaves at least 3 problems.
1: Goliath doesn't even protest when Oberon says that the people won't wake until dawn.
2: Despite this being a huge tragedy the episode doesn't dwell on it at all, nor do the gargoyles acknowledge their shortcomings.
3: Xanatos is extremely resouceful. I think he could have done something about at least part of the damage if the gargoyles had the presence of mind to ask.

FTMB: Maybe?

ESG

FTBM: Can you imagine the gargoyles trying ANY of that on all these sleeping humans? I shudder at the thought!! Definitely the best thing they could've done was go home and let the authorities deal with the injured in the morning. It would've been flat-out irresponsible to go around pulling people out of car wrecks.
D. Taina
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..." -Shari

As an addendum to D. Tiana - you are absolutely right. I have encountered patients who have come in with spinal or neck injuries who were worse off for folks trying to get them to sit up, to show they were okay (OH GEEZ NO)...or epileptic/seizure patients who had people who came in with choking-related problems because people thought they should shove something in their mouths to keep them "from choking on their own tongues" - to folks reading this, hit up WebMD and get a brief primer on weird nonsense if you have time. You never know when good random info can come in handy. Just don'y go all hypochrondiach about it and think you have bizarre ting going on with you when you probs don't ;) Info is still good to have and ya'll are n the interwebs so try it out. :)
FTBM

ESG: Why would I conclude that? That's not a logical assumption. If something is not in the show, we can safely assume three things: a) the runtime didn't allow it; b) it was irrelevant to the episode; and c) it wasn't necessary to show it. We don't go "something is not in the show" to "therefore, our heroes don't care" and finally to "the writers didn't think it through." How is that logical? Isn't that... kind of a big leap there? Just because the episode ran out of time?

The only thing we know for sure is that the gargoyles went home after Goliath made sure that Oberon removed the sleep spell before they left. If anything happened in between, well, that's up to our imaginations to decide. Personally, I try not to assume the worst just because the episode didn't tell me otherwise.

D. Taina
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..." -Shari

I think this would be a good question to submit to Ask Greg, ESG.
FTBM

Don't see it the way I do? They value life more than almost anyone. Even if they didn't think they could help, I think they would have tried.
ESG

Well, if we want to go meta, it could be Mr. Weisman "screwed up" Or if we want to stay "in univerrse" -- matbe the gargoyles don't see it the way you do. ?
FTBM

FTMB> I wouldn't have much problem with the gargoyle's failings in The Gathering if they were ACKNOWLEDGED as failings. As it is, The Gathering ends in an extremely upbeat fashion with no mention of the casualties. And for the normally persistent heroes to become so exhausted as to give up, then not even dwell on that fact...is bad storytelling.

And look, I'm not a medical expert. I don't know exactly what has to be done to stop concussions or what have you. But There's no way that everything the gargoyles could have done would be futile. If the problem is their lack of knowledge concerning humans, then cash in that favor from Xanatos they just got. He also probably has a fair amount of basic medical supplies in the Eyrie Building.

D. Taina> Or you could conclude that they didn't think their were casualties even though there were. Because Greg Weisman didn't think things through.

ESG

FTBM: Exactly. What could they do? The best thing for them to do was leave the humans alone. After all, the last thing you want to do to an injured person is move them without the proper skills and equipment. You'd just make things worse and could even cause permanent damage. It's better to wait for the proper authorities to arrive and take care of things.
D. Taina
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..." -Shari

I mean to say NON-human knowledgable, as far as emergency care is concerned. The gargoyles have shown repeatedly thru the series they don't know quite what to do with that - see Broadway with Elisa - panicked and sent her to the ER - Angela - what's CPR? in Bad Guys, what's his name mentioning how surprised he was to again reminded of human fragility. Gargoyles just don't "get" basic human ER needs, as they are so different. They are still a different species in this universe, don't forget that. They look to different solutions.
FTBM

"If they'd been preestablished(sic) as the sort to give up like that, then maybe. But no. I can't think of a single time they gave up before they'd done just about everything they could (outside of letting Demona escape but there are reasons for that). Not a single time, outside of The Gathering. Which leads me to believe even more strongly that Weisman didn't think this through."

I think you just answered your own question. They've never been shown to give up. So, according to your own logic: if we didn't see it, then that obviously means that they tried everything they could. Otherwise, assuming that the opposite is true would be a contradiction of what's already been established. Thanks for putting it so succinctly!

D. Taina
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..." -Shari

"have you been in a life and death battle"
Yep."Have you been in a hundred life and death battles"
Nope, def. not that many :)
"The Manhattan Clan's endurance and fortitude is on another level. The only reasonable explanation for why they didn't help is because they didn't realize they needed to help."

They were exhausted and overwhelmed. And they don't even know basic CPR (see: Angela). What good could they be? They as Gargoyles rely more on Stone Sleep than anything - thats what they know best. So no, I don't agree with you on this one, sorry. But like I said before, I do like you are bringing discussion back. Just naysaying you on this topic. You are still expecting our mortal, fallible, three dimensional (and human-knowledgable) heroes to be perfect. And I really think that's...silly is the best word I can come up with. If not the "unrealistic" I said before, which is humorous to use in a discussion about cartoon characters, I know.

FTBM

If they'd been preestablished as the sort to give up like that, then maybe. But no. I can't think of a single time they gave up before they'd done just about everything they could (outside of letting Demona escape but there are reasons for that). Not a single time, outside of The Gathering. Which leads me to believe even more strongly that Weisman didn't think this through.
ESG

FTBM: That's a very good point. They just fought a force of nature and almost died in the process. It makes sense that they'd be exhausted and just wanted to go home and be thankful that they're still alive and that everything turned out all right. And we wouldn't think any less of them for it. We understand that they're only mortal.
D. Taina
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..." -Shari

>What we've seen suggests that they didn't realize that people's lives were at stake. Goliath surveys the city, doesn't say anything about helping the civilians. Goes to Oberon, tells him to stop trying to kidnap Alexander instead of mentioning the damage of the sleep spell, which was far more important. When the sleep spell is finally brought up it seems like more of an afterthought, and Goliath doesn't protest a bit when Oberon says it will last until the night is over. The very next scene after leaving the Eyrie Building the gargoyles are back at the clocktower, talking jovially instead of expressing sorrow over the lives lost, or even mentioning that they did anything about the sleeping people. There's a lot of evidence that suggests they didn't do anything.

FTMB> This is not complicated. People in car crashes would have all sorts of injuries. Some would need to be treated by an expert, others could be held off until the morning with first aid. This goes doubly so for the hospitals. And while you're probably a relatively decent guy, have you been in a life and death battle? Have you been in a hundred life and death battles? The Manhattan Clan's endurance and fortitude is on another level. The only reasonable explanation for why they didn't help is because they didn't realize they needed to help.

ESG

I slightly agree with D.Tiania, that at least they were convinced there was nothing more to do...but more to the point I have, in a previous career, worked Urgent Care. and about 2-3pm, I was DONE. I mean DONE. (Even if I had to go on a couple more hours). And I was dealing with regular folks and situations, not Fey Kings out for blood. I don't think the clan are Saints. I think they would have gone home. And I would not think less of them for doing so. We mortal types have limits, after all, as much as we would like to think otherwise. And that doesn't make us evil or failures.
FTBM

ESG: "There's good reason to believe that the gargoyles didn't so much as lift a finger in the aftermath of The Gathering"? Why? Because it's not in the show? That doesn't make sense. I firmly believe that if there was anything they could do in the aftermath, they would've done it, because they've shown us time and time again that they care about their protectorate. Why should we assume otherwise? But personally, I don't feel there was much they could do. The damage was already done.
D. Taina
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..." -Shari

I think the chances are nearly zero that Goliath, and by extension the rest of his clan, would prioritize a good night's rest over the opportunity to save several lives. After fighting so hard when no lives were at stake, he'd give up when many were?
ESG

@ESG Sure thing. But they aren't facing the likes of Oberon every night either ;) And in the case of Goliath, on his own turf, first night back from a crazy journey. So I think that's important to take into consideration.
I do think you made a great point regarding the potential number of deaths though - In fact it reminds me of the Stone Sleep spell Demona put over the city, and it makes me wonder if more folk didn't die during the Gathering then during City of Stone -- just because stone sleep not only preserves but heals, whereas sleep is just sleep and leaves you vulnerable. Even in a car accident the stone might have saved them...and during an acute medical emergency may have done so, AND helped heal...whereas just falling asleep? not much protection there. Wouldn't it be ironic if D had inaverdently saved more lives than she took?

FTBM

D. Taina> Just because an episode was about such and such, that doesn't mean that the logical consequences of such and such should be ignored. Gargoyles is generally very good at exploring these consequences.

And bringing up the deaths in Grief I feel is totally missing my point. Goliath, Bronx, Angela and Elisa tried their very hardest to prevent that catastrophe. There's good reason to believe that the gargoyles didn't so much as lift a finger in the aftermath of The Gathering.

And besides, as I've been saying, the deaths didn't have to be explicitly mentioned for them to have happened. We were given simple logic; Anubis' smoke=Death, Anubis' smoke over city=death of citizens.

ESG

FTMB: I know they aren't perfect. On a whole though they're almost saintly. Working hard every night, risking life and limb on a thankless job all for a people that don't even know they exist. If they realized that they could have helped, I think they would have. Gargoyles aren't built to sleep at night anyway.
ESG

ESG: And that's why I mentioned how much time passed between the gargoyles leaving the castle and their arrival at the Clock Tower. You can use your imagination and fill in the blanks. The episode was about Alexander's kidnapping (remember that?) and that's what it focused on. Everything outside of that, like innocent bystanders, you'll just have to use your imagination because that's not what the episode was about.

Instead of focusing on people that may have died during The Gathering, why don't you focus on all those people in Grief that did die when Jackal was Anubis' avatar? It's never been mentioned in the show. Not a single off-hand remark. Isn't that a bigger deal than hypothetical casualties during The Gathering? How do you feel about that?

D. Taina
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..." -Shari

@ESG If I can jump in, I think the mistake you are making is in assuming that the Gargoyles are Perfect Heroes. They are not. Could they have done more? Possibly. I don't buy the explanation that they were doing things in between the battle at the Eyrie Building and going home. I am thinking they were probably exhausted and thankful to be alive, and just went home. Expecting perfection is expecting them to be unrealistic. Real heroes are never really perfect. That's just my two cents, but fun discussion.
FTBM

D. Taina> If you just look at the discussion we've been having, it's quite clear that it didn't occur to most people that the Gargoyles did anything about the bystanders after fighting Oberon. And that's quite understandable, because the episode does very little, if anything, to suggest that they do so.

We saw them neutralize the sleep spell, but it seemed they were worrying only that the people might never wake up, not that they might have been harmed in their sleep. We saw them surveying the damage, but not saying that the slumbering people needed to be helped. A single offhand remark would remedy this situation, but none exists.

ESG

Plenty of time passed between the gargoyles leaving the castle and their arrival at the Clock Tower. We see them leaving when it's dark, but it's dawn when we see them again at the Clock Tower. Who's to say nothing happened in all that time? Why assume that the gargoyles did NOTHING when all the clues are there, pointing at the gargoyles doing their very best under the circumstances? We didn't need to see it; it's right there. You just need to know where to look. Show, don't tell, etc...

I really don't get why we need to see every little detail about the innocent bystanders. Goliath asked Oberon about the humans and made sure he removed the spell (remember the magic swirleys?). We saw them surveying the damage before engaging Oberon. We saw them neutralize the big threat. We saw them stay there and make sure that everything turned out fine. Really, what more do you want? A whole episode devoted to the lives of these innocent bystanders and how their lives were affected by Oberon's magic? Come on.

D. Taina
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..." -Shari

That's the only conclusion that makes sense to me.
ESG

Well, that's a decent point, ESG. Maybe Goliath didn't see the gravity of the situation. Maybe they didn't consider, in the heat of the moment, what everyone suddenly sleeping might do and result in.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" - Sevarius, "Louse"

Chip: And again, Goliath is a very courageous sort. I doubt he'd just accept Oberon's statement that they'd wake at dawn if he truly understood the gravity of the situation. He would ask that the people be woken up.
ESG

Matt: "Are you so sure the Manhattan Clan did nothing after leaving the Eyrie Building? For that matter, whose to say Xanatos didn't help out after the episode."

There was ample opportunity to give some offhand remark that suggested either party did. But no such remark is present. The fact that the next thing the gargoyles do is leisurely return to the clocktower makes this almost certain.

"And really, what can the gargoyles do? They see people are asleep and I'm sure they saw a fair number of car accidents, but they can't reverse time and they are not doctors. Look how helpless they were when Angela nearly died in Hunter's Moon. And that was a gargoyle. I've seen no evidence that any of them could save a human suffering from mortal wounds aside from taking them to other more capable humans, as Broadway did with Elisa in Deadly Force. Most of the humans seemed fine and those few injured or dead humans that the gargoyles may have seen were beyond their ability to really help. The best course for the Clan would be to stop the cause of the problem (Oberon) and find a way to wake the humans up (again, Oberon). And that's exactly what they did."

Injuries do not exist on a binary switch. It's not just "lethal" and "non-lethal." For every injury that was beyond help there would surely be many more that were on the borderline, where even just moving people out of harm's way and dressing their wounds could make the difference.

Chip: "Not to mention, that Goliath DID address the issue."

Personally, that sounded more like an afterthought if anything. Their leisurely return to the clocktower is proof enough. Seriously, do you think Broadway would be like "Angie' you ain't seen nothing yet" as opposed to "We've gotta go help those people!"

ESG

ESG> Not to mention, that Goliath DID address the issue.

"But wait, what about the city...Everyone's still asleep."

Seriously...What more could he have done? He went and took on the cause of the sleep spell, and ensured it;s reversal. There were really no other options available to him.

Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. ~~C.S. Lewis

ESG> Are you so sure the Manhattan Clan did nothing after leaving the Eyrie Building? For that matter, whose to say Xanatos didn't help out after the episode. And really, what can the gargoyles do? They see people are asleep and I'm sure they saw a fair number of car accidents, but they can't reverse time and they are not doctors. Look how helpless they were when Angela nearly died in Hunter's Moon. And that was a gargoyle. I've seen no evidence that any of them could save a human suffering from mortal wounds aside from taking them to other more capable humans, as Broadway did with Elisa in Deadly Force. Most of the humans seemed fine and those few injured or dead humans that the gargoyles may have seen were beyond their ability to really help. The best course for the Clan would be to stop the cause of the problem (Oberon) and find a way to wake the humans up (again, Oberon). And that's exactly what they did.

And by the way:
"Oh, and don't forget the time that everyone mysteriously lost their shoes (on account of them breaking when they turned into gargoyles and their feet expanded)."

I addressed this with Greg more than 13 years ago: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=4136

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" - Sevarius, "Louse"

That last post was badly broken up. Reposting.
Harlan>
"My only issue with most of this is the fact that there's no guarantee to anyone but Oberon that he'd be dormant for however many years due to the Gathering. Oberon's Children aren't supposed to dabble in mortal affairs but plenty of episodes show that they're also super huge into loopholes.

Not to mention Oberon himself can be impulsive and selfish, and his rules are his to interpret. He'll bow down if someone impressively stands up, as seen even prior to The Gathering, but someone does have to actually stand up. But without that attempted back hand and stone wall, there's no reason for anyone to assume Oberon will just stay by myself. And without really KNOWING Oberon beyond his status as "I am king, and this belongs to me so I'm taking it despite other people being deeply involved with it", there's no guessing what he'd actually go for left to his own devices. Even in terms of raw priorities, I'd STILL say they should go for Oberon first not just because of the root cause but also because of the fact that not checking this dude before even MORE stuff happens because of his entitlement is smart on the long term."

You make a good case, but Goliath's actions weren't presented at all the way you're interpreting them. He doesn't say anything about teaching Oberon a lesson: his focus is all on Alexander. If he intended to teach Oberon a lesson he would have mentioned the sleep spell's damage to him. As it is, he hardly seems aware that the sleep spell is any real problem.

"Also the clan's used to big magic crises at this point so I don't see why they wouldn't instinctively go for Oberon's face."

And Goliath says "Oberon, stop trying to take Xanatos' child" not "Oberon, wake everyone up before thousands suffer."

"As for the other point, yes, things happen off-screen. But there's a difference between assuming things happen off-screen and things happen off-screen SO significantly that it devalues the heroism of our protagonists. I think that takes analysis of events a bit too far. It's like someone taking a Disney movie and poking holes into the story just to make it look bad without any regard to the actual content. It's just as easy to assume there was a slow set of circumstances that caused minimal damage in the city. Sometimes it's not Brendan, sometimes it's just a guy wearing a toupee. Artistic license and lenience in interpretation are occasionally needed, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the WORST possible thing happened. If there really was immense catastrophe, we would've seen the after effects. We didn't, so by logically adhering to the world presented in Gargoyles's continuity we can assume there wasn't immense damage on the night of The Gathering.

Whether or not it's a stretch of logic is another matter entirely, but all evidence internal to the series doesn't point to there being immense damage. It's one thing for a single displayed woman to lose her arms or for Demona to leave a ray gun behind. Stuff like that slips through the cracks and/or are too small of scale to really be relevant. But I feel like given the scales of what you're proposing, the fact it DOESN'T come up means it probably didn't happen and it was just a slow night."

This isn't some insane leap of logic. Every car in Manhattan crashing is a single step of inference to countless people injured or worse. I can hardly imagine a bizarre series of circumstances that wouldn't result in any casualties. Weisman failed to realize the true gravity of the situation.

Algernon-Goliath returns to the clocktower, the gargoyles have small talk, and nobody makes a single remark about the people dying in the streets. Pretty safe bet that they didn't do anything about them.

ESG

Harlan Ellison> My only issue with most of this is the fact that there's no guarantee to anyone but Oberon that he'd be dormant for however many years due to the Gathering. Oberon's Children aren't supposed to dabble in mortal affairs but plenty of episodes show that they're also super huge into loopholes.

Not to mention Oberon himself can be impulsive and selfish, and his rules are his to interpret. He'll bow down if someone impressively stands up, as seen even prior to The Gathering, but someone does have to actually stand up. But without that attempted back hand and stone wall, there's no reason for anyone to assume Oberon will just stay by myself. And without really KNOWING Oberon beyond his status as "I am king, and this belongs to me so I'm taking it despite other people being deeply involved with it", there's no guessing what he'd actually go for left to his own devices. Even in terms of raw priorities, I'd STILL say they should go for Oberon first not just because of the root cause but also because of the fact that not checking this dude before even MORE stuff happens because of his entitlement is smart on the long term."
You make a good case, but Goliath's actions weren't presented at all the way you're interpreting them. He doesn't say anything about teaching Oberon a lesson: his focus is all on Alexander. If he intended to teach Oberon a lesson he would have mentioned the sleep spell's damage to him. As it is, he hardly seems aware that the sleep spell is any real problem.

"Also the clan's used to big magic crises at this point so I don't see why they wouldn't instinctively go for Oberon's face."
And Goliath says "Oberon, stop trying to take Xanatos' child" not "Oberon, wake everyone up before thousands suffer."

"As for the other point, yes, things happen off-screen. But there's a difference between assuming things happen off-screen and things happen off-screen SO significantly that it devalues the heroism of our protagonists. I think that takes analysis of events a bit too far. It's like someone taking a Disney movie and poking holes into the story just to make it look bad without any regard to the actual content. It's just as easy to assume there was a slow set of circumstances that caused minimal damage in the city. Sometimes it's not Brendan, sometimes it's just a guy wearing a toupee. Artistic license and lenience in interpretation are occasionally needed, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the WORST possible thing happened. If there really was immense catastrophe, we would've seen the after effects. We didn't, so by logically adhering to the world presented in Gargoyles's continuity we can assume there wasn't immense damage on the night of The Gathering.

Whether or not it's a stretch of logic is another matter entirely, but all evidence internal to the series doesn't point to there being immense damage. It's one thing for a single displayed woman to lose her arms or for Demona to leave a ray gun behind. Stuff like that slips through the cracks and/or are too small of scale to really be relevant. But I feel like given the scales of what you're proposing, the fact it DOESN'T come up means it probably didn't happen and it was just a slow night."
This isn't some insane leap of logic. Every car in Manhattan crashing is a single step of inference to countless people injured or worse. I can hardly imagine a bizarre series of circumstances that wouldn't result in any casualties. Weisman failed to realize the true gravity of the situation.

Algernon-He returns to the clocktower, the gargoyles have small talk, and nobody makes a single remark about the people dying in the streets. Pretty safe bet that they didn't do anything about them.

ESG

ESG> My only issue with most of this is the fact that there's no guarantee to anyone but Oberon that he'd be dormant for however many years due to the Gathering. Oberon's Children aren't supposed to dabble in mortal affairs but plenty of episodes show that they're also super huge into loopholes.

Not to mention Oberon himself can be impulsive and selfish, and his rules are his to interpret. He'll bow down if someone impressively stands up, as seen even prior to The Gathering, but someone does have to actually stand up. But without that attempted back hand and stone wall, there's no reason for anyone to assume Oberon will just stay by myself. And without really KNOWING Oberon beyond his status as "I am king, and this belongs to me so I'm taking it despite other people being deeply involved with it", there's no guessing what he'd actually go for left to his own devices. Even in terms of raw priorities, I'd STILL say they should go for Oberon first not just because of the root cause but also because of the fact that not checking this dude before even MORE stuff happens because of his entitlement is smart on the long term.

Also the clan's used to big magic crises at this point so I don't see why they wouldn't instinctively go for Oberon's face.

As for the other point, yes, things happen off-screen. But there's a difference between assuming things happen off-screen and things happen off-screen SO significantly that it devalues the heroism of our protagonists. I think that takes analysis of events a bit too far. It's like someone taking a Disney movie and poking holes into the story just to make it look bad without any regard to the actual content. It's just as easy to assume there was a slow set of circumstances that caused minimal damage in the city. Sometimes it's not Brendan, sometimes it's just a guy wearing a toupee. Artistic license and lenience in interpretation are occasionally needed, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the WORST possible thing happened. If there really was immense catastrophe, we would've seen the after effects. We didn't, so by logically adhering to the world presented in Gargoyles's continuity we can assume there wasn't immense damage on the night of The Gathering.

Whether or not it's a stretch of logic is another matter entirely, but all evidence internal to the series doesn't point to there being immense damage. It's one thing for a single displayed woman to lose her arms or for Demona to leave a ray gun behind. Stuff like that slips through the cracks and/or are too small of scale to really be relevant. But I feel like given the scales of what you're proposing, the fact it DOESN'T come up means it probably didn't happen and it was just a slow night.

Harlan Smellison
You actually defeated Captain Corn. That's really something.

ESG> Goliath may have just been relieved that the angry blue god king was going away and planned to deal with whatever collateral damage remained alongside the Clan himself.
Algernon

Algernon-I appreciate the kind words. And, I could accept that Goliath planned to stop the sleep spell by stopping Oberon. Except he didn't raise a word of protest when Oberon said everyone would wake in the morning, and didn't seem to do anything about the mess Oberon caused afterwards.
ESG

HARLAN> I don't think ESG's argument is creepy at all. One the one hand you have one child in danger of being kidnapped, and the other hand you have several innocent bystander in danger of potentially deadly injury. Both are horrific tragedies but if you only have time and resources to deal with one, which one do you chose?

It's the kind of question real life emergency services often have to struggle with. In Goliath's case, it's simplified a little by both tragedies having the same root cause: Oberon throwing a hissy fit. So G decided to go straight to the source of the problem.

I actually do disagree with ESG on this, but he still asked a legitimate question in good faith and that is the spirit in which I have chosen to respond to him.

Algernon

"Right, except that the entire point of The Gathering is being focused around themes of family and, more importantly, family STAYING together. Goliath's not doing it for David Xanatos. He's not even doing it for the Xanatos family specifically. He spells it out himself after a World Tour of stifling his own bond: nothing should separate a parent and a child."

Of course familial bonds are important. But this is about priorities. What's more important, the familial bonds of a family that's committed more crimes than most ever will, or the lives of several innocents?


"Also, based on your comments regarding Alexander's fate, I have decided to acknowledge you as a sociopath. Because as much as you talk about valuing human life, "the baby wouldn't even be killed" oversimplifies the implications of Alex being under Oberon's care that nothing you say makes sense."

Again, priorities. In a different circumstance I would agree with Goliath's choice, but with everyone asleep, who gets to raise Alexander was far from the most important problem.Oberon's far from an ideal father figure, but he seemed to have every intention of treating Alexander well.


"Except that would be stupid because, the way the show happened, stopping to save everyone would prevent Oberon from being defeated. Even if, at the end of the day, this was as selfish and stupid as you say it was (and it wasn't), letting Oberon go off scott free would not work out in the long run. Oberon is egotistical and of old ways, thinking he was justified in taking a child who wasn't his. For someone who didn't hold a level of power and respect in his eye to NOT fight against that would be terrible in the long run, as it'd keep Oberon more out of check than he actually was. You know what would be way worse than Oberon putting people to sleep? Giving Oberon the idea he can walk into anywhere, any time he wants, and nobody will challenge him when he has even the vaguest of personal justification."

With the gathering going on, Oberon's interactions with the rest of the world will be minimal. And honestly, do you think he wouldn't try something like this again? I might have to rewatch it, but as I saw it Oberon didn't think what he did was wrong in the end. He was just exhausted and when he saw a viable alternative he took it.

Besides, the gargoyles have never really prioritized "sending a message." They're very focused on the immediate consequences, not some abstract future. I seriously doubt they'd prioritize that over saving several lives. And if they really wanted to teach Oberon a lesson, they would have brought up how much damage his sleep spell surely caused.

"Also I don't think you really know how fiction works, because if the damage was THAT significant, we would've seen it. But we didn't see it, so it's easy enough to interpret the sequence of events as having relatively minimal damage that wouldn't hugely require the attention of the clan. If that detail was important, he'd be there. But it wasn't, and future episodes give no indication that the damage was significant with long lasting consequences. Cities, even as busy as NYC, can have slow nights for whatever reason. The fact that this was a night where minimal damage was caused is convenient, but still a perfectly valid interpretation of the episode's content."

Just because we don't see something doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Just because you don't shine a light on something doesn't mean it's not there. Magic and myth aside, Gargoyles takes place in a world similar to ours. And in any semblance of reality, hundreds of thousands of cars swerving simultaneously and thousands of doctors falling asleep at operating tables will cause a lot of collateral damage. And due to Gargoyles Tiers and Tentpoles structure, we weren't going to see the after affects of the Gathering no matter what they were.


"So I mean, either way. This is pretty much the most obnoxious nitpicking humanly possible."

With all due respect, have you looked at any forums lately?

ESG

I'm not being completely serious.

But it doesn't make sense to me to devalue the impact of the central narrative just to make the supposed ignored implications all the stronger. If the argument is really about how the story isn't properly valuing life, why is "Alexander's not even gonna actually die while he's being kidnapped and stripped from his parents that're clearly shown as loving" an actual argument in tandem with that?

So no, I'm not being totally serious, but the point of the (joke) statement is that he clearly holds different values for different people. That apparently preventing an innocent from being kidnapped isn't moral because it's "for his dad's happiness" and "Well Xanatos already has anything he could ever want, it's not like his kidnapped baby's gonna die."

That is a fair joke for me to make. I mean, I have to make myself clearer in the future given how little tone can be translated through text, but come on. He's making a big argument about the morality over preventing a kidnapping in lieu of preventing damage we don't see is "Xanatos already has anything he wants and the Gargoyles are just doing this for his happiness."

That's not even a remotely fair assessment of the episode's situation. The argument is downright creepy.

Harlan Smellison
You actually defeated Captain Corn. That's really something.

MASTERDRAMON> Totally unrelated to anything else but... Awesome sig!
Algernon

Harlan: Whatever my personal feelings on the particular subject at stake, you have just lost the argument by accusing someone of being a sociopath because of their opinion on a cartoon show.

Normally I can stand to sit back while you act like an ass to anyone who disagrees with you on completely trivial subjects, but that's a step too far.

Back the hell off.

Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"If someone ever tells me it's a mistake to have hope...well then, I'll just tell them they're wrong. And I'll keep telling them until they believe. No matter how many times it takes." - Madoka Kaname

HARLAN> While I don't necessarily agree with ESG, trying to win an argument with ad hominem attacks, insults and implying there must be something wrong with any one who disagrees with you is the height an intellectual laziness.

But really, I don't want to make it sound like I'm singling you out personally, because it's something that's been endemic to this Comment Room for a long time. I'm ashamed to say I've done it myself more often that I care to admit. And even when I don't, I've been far too willing to turn a blind eye when I see others do it.

So can we please try not to be so darn defensive every time a newbie dares to voice an opinion that deviates from whatever list of pre-approved groupthink opinions us "old-guard" have already decided upon?

The sad thing is, this is probably the only substantial discussion the Comment Room has had in months.

Algernon

ESG>"Yes, I'm simplifying. I know this."

Somehow I doubt that.

"But this is getting it down to brass tacks. Yes, Xanatos was doing something noble, out of love. Yes, his direct family would also be hurt by the loss. But that doesn't change that the gargoyles went to help the person who already had everything, who deserved commupance, who's child wasn't even going to be killed, instead of saving several other lives."

Right, except that the entire point of The Gathering is being focused around themes of family and, more importantly, family STAYING together. Goliath's not doing it for David Xanatos. He's not even doing it for the Xanatos family specifically. He spells it out himself after a World Tour of stifling his own bond: nothing should separate a parent and a child.

Also, based on your comments regarding Alexander's fate, I have decided to acknowledge you as a sociopath. Because as much as you talk about valuing human life, "the baby wouldn't even be killed" oversimplifies the implications of Alex being under Oberon's care that nothing you say makes sense.

"As for what could have been done to make me like the episode more, it's really quite simple. Instead of a sleep spell, have Oberon cast an illusion spell. Nobody has to see what's going on, no innocents get hurt and the gargoyles can go about their heroic way with a clear conscience.

Algernon-Oberon was only attacking the Eyrie Building. There was very little collateral."

Except that would be stupid because, the way the show happened, stopping to save everyone would prevent Oberon from being defeated. Even if, at the end of the day, this was as selfish and stupid as you say it was (and it wasn't), letting Oberon go off scott free would not work out in the long run. Oberon is egotistical and of old ways, thinking he was justified in taking a child who wasn't his. For someone who didn't hold a level of power and respect in his eye to NOT fight against that would be terrible in the long run, as it'd keep Oberon more out of check than he actually was. You know what would be way worse than Oberon putting people to sleep? Giving Oberon the idea he can walk into anywhere, any time he wants, and nobody will challenge him when he has even the vaguest of personal justification.

Also I don't think you really know how fiction works, because if the damage was THAT significant, we would've seen it. But we didn't see it, so it's easy enough to interpret the sequence of events as having relatively minimal damage that wouldn't hugely require the attention of the clan. If that detail was important, he'd be there. But it wasn't, and future episodes give no indication that the damage was significant with long lasting consequences. Cities, even as busy as NYC, can have slow nights for whatever reason. The fact that this was a night where minimal damage was caused is convenient, but still a perfectly valid interpretation of the episode's content.

So I mean, either way. This is pretty much the most obnoxious nitpicking humanly possible. There's no real evidence of immense damage beyond the fourth wall breaking "Uh, yeah, without artistic license this would be a big thing" and even IF you consider that, Oberon would still be the unfortunate priority target because the Manhattan Clan don't have the manpower to take up fixing this fake damage and letting Oberon win would suggest a power and influence that would be immensely dangerous for him to hold.

Harlan Smellison
You actually defeated Captain Corn. That's really something.

Jensen-Fortunately, people seem to have a rather thick head when it comes magical phenomena. It still boggles my mind that City of Stone never got figured out by the general populace. Isn't like 5 percent of the population deaf?

Oh, and don't forget the time that everyone mysteriously lost their shoes (on account of them breaking when they turned into gargoyles and their feet expanded).

ESG

Todd> I had never considered that before, actually. Quite the sensible connection to make.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

I can't help wondering if the real reason for the anti-gargoyle hysteria that Castaway would exploit in "The Journey" was all those weird disasters going on ("City of Stone" as well as "The Gathering") that people couldn't explain and needed a scapegoat for (like going after the Jews in medieval Europe during the Black Death).
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are really good finders

Algernon-Perhaps I could buy that justification...except they still didn't do anything to help anyone else even after Oberon was gone.
ESG

ESG: At the time, but when dealing with a Godzilla sized godlike being who's know to have a rather short fuse, I don't think it's unreasonable for Goliath and Co to decide that getting Oberon under control before things escalate was a priority.
Algernon

Yes, I'm simplifying. I know this. But this is getting it down to brass tacks. Yes, Xanatos was doing something noble, out of love. Yes, his direct family would also be hurt by the loss. But that doesn't change that the gargoyles went to help the person who already had everything, who deserved commupance, who's child wasn't even going to be killed, instead of saving several other lives.

As for what could have been done to make me like the episode more, it's really quite simple. Instead of a sleep spell, have Oberon cast an illusion spell. Nobody has to see what's going on, no innocents get hurt and the gargoyles can go about their heroic way with a clear conscience.

Algernon-Oberon was only attacking the Eyrie Building. There was very little collateral.

ESG

It's hard to watch the show because I feel bad for all the people who get hit in the head with pieces of stone every morning when walking past the police station. :P
Anthony Tini

ESG> I've sat here for like three minutes trying to think of a funny way to express how much you've oversimplified the episode, but that's not coming to me.

If THAT'S what you got from the episode's story, there's nothing the episode could've actually done to make you like it more. You missed the point of why any character did what he or she did so astronomically hard.

Harlan Smellison
You actually defeated Captain Corn. That's really something.

ESG> Well, that and to prevent what's basically a kidnapping. And to prevent Oberon doing any further damage to NYC.
Algernon

As much as The Gahering is an excellent episode, I can't enjoy it wholeheartedly. Why? Because Oberon's sleep spell caused a lot of damage. Greg Weisman even admits this. Countless people would be in car crashes or in desperate need of attention at hospitals. So what do the gargoyles do for this city they've sworn to protect? Nothing. They don't run a search and rescue mission. They don't even ask Oberon to undo the sleep spell. They're manipulated into fighting, not for any greater good, but for Xanatos' happiness. Nothing else is at stake, and that's appalling.
ESG

Yes, interesting. I wonder though how much humanity may change these things though. With a 1000 or 1000000 more years of technological advancement, could we alter things a bit? I think a million year old civilization might be able to modify stars to increase their lifespan if they felt so inclined. I think a billion year old civilization could easily modify the components of a planets atmosphere to keep photosynthesis going for much longer. A lot of the chart seems to show things as they are predicted to occur through natural processes, but those are not the only processes at work. The chart ignores what is one of the most dramatic and powerful forces to ever evolve on Earth: the ability of one species, us, to modify and change our environment on a massive scale. If we could clear a forest, sow fields, and build large stone structures in the year 0, and only 2000 years later have altered the courses of rivers, the composition of the atmosphere and the climate, traveled to the poles and the moon, and sent probes to all the planets and out of the solar system (among tons of other technological wonders), imagine what we'll be able to do in another 2,000 years. Or 20,000. Or 2,000,000. or 2,000,000,000.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" - Sevarius, "Louse"

I thought this was pretty intersting.

How the World Will End in One Chart:
http://knowmore.washingtonpost.com/2014/01/10/how-the-world-will-end-in-one-chart/

Anthony Tini

Finished Players (spoilers). I've got to say, that was friggin incredible. Nearly the whole time I was thinking "how in the world is all this stuff gonna be Satisfactorily wrapped up in so few issues?" But it delivered. Mostly.

The main thing that bothered me was Brainiac's motivation for giving up. Was it because his forcefield was taken out? Presumably he had another one, and he had the manpower to take out every hero in his way. He says that Superman surviving Krypton's destruc)ion means he doesn't need to collect the city (even if he'd still like too. But no...that makes no sense. How does the survival of a single member of a population who's bound to die in a few decades equate to the preservation of a world? He didn't even take Superman with him. And did Brainiac's twelth level intellect seriously not anticipate that a single world on a planet with spaceships might survive? Brainiac's rationale is hard to grasp as is (wouldn't he be more interested in our historical records?). But this. This goes beyond alien logic. I could mostly get behind Kylstar's thinking, but not Brainiac's.

Some other thoughts (rather critical, if only because the rest of my thoughts don't merit a response):

I appreciated that The League had a big hand in the turn of events. Most of the time it's not a problem, but on at least one occasion (summit) they weren't there when it seemed like they should be.

The more I see of The Flash, the more nonsensical his (and Wally's) powers seem. I mean, normally he moves at...a few hundred miles per hour, maybe? Whatever, the point is that the speedsters can't consistently outmatch the villains they're fighting. Yet he can also do stuff like vibrating through solid objects or approach light speed. I can accept whatever nonsense explanation there is for a power, but I want its effects to be consistent.

I applaud how well thought out Kylstar's containment chamber was, but his selection makes significantly less sense. How did he choose his abductees? Did he scan for physical strength and durability? Then why wasn't Match taken? Did he observe earth for a while? then how did he fail to notice how many capable fighters it had?

Mongul and Kylstar have similar histories and goals. I wonder if that means anything.

Match being released by the force field seemed really, really contrived. Where where they even keeping him? He was moved from Cadmus, the only building we know of with a deep underground section. But even Cadmus didn't seem to be as deep underground as Match would have had to be. The forcefield was a sphere, and taller than the tallest buildings, meaning Match had to be like half a mile underground. His fight with Batgirl was awesome, which mostly makes up for it, but still.

ESG

To the "Anonymous" asker who submitted this question today:

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=19675

On the off-chance that you check in this CR (you left no contact info nor even a screen name, so I really have no other way of replying to you), the reason your question on Wonder Woman's lasso was deleted was because it broke Guideline #6.

The maximum number of questions allowed per-post is 5. You asked, if I am remembering correctly, 8.

And while I am often somewhat forgiving of posts that do not go too far over the limit when the questions themselves are brief, as yours were, you used trickery in order to try and make it LOOK as if your post contained 5 questions (two Question #3s, for example). That tends to shorten my patience.

You are welcome to resubmit those questions at any time, so long as they are separated into multiple posts and each contains no more than 5 questions. Then I will be happy to approve them and pass them along to Greg.

Thanks.

Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"If someone ever tells me it's a mistake to have hope...well then, I'll just tell them they're wrong. And I'll keep telling them until they believe. No matter how many times it takes." - Madoka Kaname

Between the end of dinner and before bedtime, I find myself not wanting to watch an episode or two of a TV show (or start a new series) or invest 2+ hours in a movie, so I've begun watching random 1 hour standup specials on Netflix streaming. The only one worth mentioning that I stumbled upon is Bo Burnham. His special "what." was under the Popular on Netflix banner so I figured I'd give it a whirl. In the first fifteen minutes I was hooked. I've watched the special a half dozen times now, I've downloaded his current album as well as his old stuff. Bo is currently 22 years old and he released his first special "Words, Words, Words" three years ago when he was 19. He does a lot of songs, and in my opinion, they are not only funny but pretty ingenious and also catchy. I've been playing his stuff, pretty much nonstop, on my iPod ever since I saw his special last Monday. I highly recommend him.
Anthony Tini

*clears throat*

And away we go on with the show...?

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" - Sevarius, "Louse"

And away we go on with the show!
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
Mark Twain: "Don't argue with stupid people. They'll take you down to their level and beat you with experience."

Tenth
Phil - [p1anderson at yahoo dot com]

Ninth...











Doctor.

Algernon

Two cubed.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

D'oh. That's what I get for leaving a page open without refreshing.

Seventh.

Supermorff

Sixth
Supermorff

6th
Anthony Tini

Fifth!
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"If someone ever tells me it's a mistake to have hope...well then, I'll just tell them they're wrong. And I'll keep telling them until they believe. No matter how many times it takes." - Madoka Kaname

4th!!
Matthew
I have nothing more to say...So why am I still talking?

(3rd)Third!!!
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
Mark Twain: "Don't argue with stupid people. They'll take you down to their level and beat you with experience."

Second!
Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Wow...

No one? Really?

Alright.

FIRST!!!

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" - Sevarius, "Louse"