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The Phoenix Gate

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Comments for the week ending February 22, 2015

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The worst thing to happen to that terrible April Fools joke Gargoyles film rumor is some idiot went and made it a JPEG during this bout so no one has access to the article, just the title. But I guess no one on Tumblr likes sources anyway, faulty sources at that. Can't wait for 2017 to come for it to finally be over, this thing will keep coming back until then.

I'm sure Angela's death would be tumultuous for her, maybe the first time she'd wanted to die as well. Angela is the only thing Demona loves unconditionally.

You know, Angela's death, whether it be old age, what have you, could induce the first thought that it was her fault, even if it wasn't. I think she'd eventually blame herself for her daughter's death.


Just to clarify, I fully agree with what has been said so far.
Demona's possible redemption is something that should be handled very carefully, that should be focused mainly on her becoming aware of her own crimes and errors, and especially it shouldn't end in a cheap "she's a good gal now, and everyone's okay with that".
Doing otherwise would mean to throw away her complexity as a villain and thus it would just be an insult to her character.

In my opinion there are several things to consider when one's thinking about Demona's redemption: first of all that her hatred of Humanity isn't the real problem with her, but rather that she's in denial and blames Humanity for her own role in causing the Wyvern Massacre, basically she's projecting on something else her own guilt. To redeem herself she should first accept her own faults.

Then there needs to be a good justification for Demona to accept her errors and no longer believe in her own lies, which is something very difficult in itself since she has already proven to be very good at shrugging off any sign of epiphany. There should either be some really huge emotional event that radically change her, or some very, very, slow and gradual transformation, even then I can't think of anything really convincing (maybe Angela could play a role?).

Then one should consider what Greg said in one of his AskGreg, that when Demona will get a "true" epiphany she's likely to go "a little mad". This epiphany would naturally not be a pleasant experience and it should be depicted with the appropriate seriousness. She would probably suffer from a mental breakdown, or the importance of this event would end up as downplayed.

And lastly one shouldn't think that a "redeemed" Demona means that every other character will just accept it and suddenly forget everything she's done before, or that she will suddenly come to love Humanity, or even just that she will automatically become "good".
In my opinion even a reformed Demona would remain a loner, morally ambiguous character that would never be fully trusted by anyone, even those who are willing to believe in a sincere "redemption". I think I heard of some fanfiction where she rejoined the Manhattan Clan, something like that sounds crazy to me, in fact since this particular Demona would have realized her own crimes and errors in my opinion it's likely that she wouldn't even desire to go back to a clan, any clan, let alone the same one she knows she has inflicted so much pain.

I think that ultimately redemption for Demona would mean acceptance of her own errors and an end to her genocidal campaign, which doesn't mean that she will fully give up her distrust for Humanity (her dislike of Humanity is older than the Wyvern massacre, so a reformed Demona might decide to switch her target from all of Humanity to only the Humans who discriminate or endanger Gargoyles) or that the other characters of the series will be willing to believe, let alone accept, to this change of heart (the closest thing to a normal relationship that Demona could, might have would be with Angela, and there's plenty of space for problems there too).

Well, that really sounded like a rant, but this is something that has always interested me.


By being stone during the day, a longer stretch of time than night, I imagine gargoyles need more hours than humans. If Demona gets three or for hours of sleep as a human a day, she'd be a wreck, in garg hours it would be like getting one hour of sleep as a human. Maybe she has binge days where all she does is sleep. She does act pampered when toting around Macbeth, but that didn't last for long, so as for the rest of her life her health and sanity isn't looking so good.

Without stone sleep she can't heal at a gargoyle's rate anymore can she? Anyway, I'd think both forms are far more susceptible to injury and sickness with the poor care she's apparently giving herself.


It's not healthy for humans to get only a few hours of sleep during the day, in any case. No matter how much of a special case Demona is (and considering that she already had a few screws loose even before Puck worked his magic on her), I don't think getting so little sleep would be good for Demona either.

Which is probably a good thing; I think she'd be even more of a threat if fatigue didn't cause her to blunder.

Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

<<Also, Demona not sleeping now is not going to help anyone. Imagine Demona cranky. Demona. CRANKY.>>

Greg has said she gets a few hours of sleep during the day as a human. Which makes sense, why would she give up her gargoyle hours? It still doesn't help her outlook.

Greg Bishansky

If it's all in the minds of the audience, then there are some fans who've already decided she is redeemed, I'm sure of it. Gotta love those Demona apologists...

I agree about Goliath's death being a good ending point for the flagship Gargoyles series. Greg has said that Gargoyles: 2198 would begin right where Gargoyles ends, but he's also said that Goliath (and Elisa) are our main characters and focus of the series. I can't see them living until 2198. Ending the series with Goliath's death and the aftermath and picking up a few decades later makes more sense to me. But like Bishansky said, I trust Greg's vision and writing to figure it out.

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]

Demona's redemption may very well be only in the eyes of the audience. For the rest of the characters in the Gargoyle verse she will never be seen as anything more than a mass murderer. Which is pretty tragic in itself.
From far, from eve and morning, And yon twelve-winded sky, The stuff of life to knit me, Blew hither: here am I. -A.E. Housman

She's probably killed people in her human form already too. She's not any LESS Demona when she transforms, it's a body, an image, not a mind. She's capable of doing anything she's done regardless what form she's in. She's plotting, scheming, dishing out blood day and night. She's busy, too occupied to CARE about anyone. A heart doesn't change, a heart keeps beating.

Also, Demona not sleeping now is not going to help anyone. Imagine Demona cranky. Demona. CRANKY.

Being human is not going to change her outlook, she's not a human, she's a gargoyle, with issues.


Any possible redemption of Demona would have to be handled with great care. I trust Greg Weisman knows what he's doing. But I've never seen one single fanfic pull it off in a manner that was even close to feeling right. Of course, a lot of that has to do with some fic authors just not understanding the character. A few months back, I was chatting with one and they said that Demona becoming human during the day will allow her to get used to humans and she'll have a change of heart. Um, she's been around humans for over a thousand years, I think she's used to humans, I don't think that's the problem. Besides, that beat was already kind of played during the "City of Stone" flashbacks, and they did NOT fix her.

It's difficult because, let's be honest, Demona is a mass murderer. Not just a would-be mass murderer, but an actual mass murderer. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's difficult.

Greg Bishansky

I'm not fond of characters in talks of being "redeemed". Redeemed in the eyes of who? Not everyone, for sure. Would Demona be "redeemed" in the eyes of herself? That seems tipacally delusional of her. Would time, others, have forgotten her deeds, making it easier to say "yeah, she's a cool gal in my book"? I don't know. Redemption stories are usually about people being redeemed in their own eyes, who are aware they did wrong. Would Demona's road to redemption be awareness? I'd rather that than her saving a bus of kids and become the talk of the town.

Even after that, your dealing with a series with time travel. Goliath or anyone, anything that has ever happened could potentially be seen in any other of the series.

Have you seen Pulp Fiction? Death, events can be bent around with broken-narrative storytelling as anything involving time travel has a bit of, though it could be argued it doesn't if the "traveling" character is aware of the change and keeps along the same string of events the audience does. Time-travel's funny that way.


So, returning to the discussion about the "completeness" of the series, I understand that this was the kind of series that could have gone on as long as there were new ideas (and it seems that there were, and are, a lot of ideas).

By reading the Timeline on the Wiki it seems that the closest thing to an "ending" for the main story could have been (I'll use the Spoiler tag just to be sure) [SPOILER] Goliath sacrificing his life for an unspecified threat, and how that event would have eventually led to the Gargoyle Minority Act [/SPOILER].
That sounds like a plot point important enough to end the "Modern" phase of Gargoyles and jump into Gargoyles 2198.

It's quite a shame that nothing from the 2198 series ever got made, I for one was particularly interested in the implied subplot about Demona's possible redemption.
But I suppose that one can hope for some form of future release.


Drat. I missed my favorite president. Oh well, Zachary Taylor at least wins the best name award.

And away we go!

It's not entirely related to Gargoyles, but I've been wondering how well the Rain of the Ghosts books have sold, and whether Greg will continue to work on the rest of that series.

Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

Going from memory, but I think John Tyler is next.
Phil - [P1anderson at yahoo dot com]


Martin Van Buren (8)
Anthony Tini

Mary Robinson!

SIXTH, aka John Quincy Adams!
"The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

OK. James Monroe 5th President. Missed it by a few seconds.
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
Mark Twain: "Don't argue with stupid people. They'll take you down to their level and beat you with experience."

Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
Mark Twain: "Don't argue with stupid people. They'll take you down to their level and beat you with experience."

James Madison!
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"It's not society that determines people's futures. It's people who determine society's future." - Inspector Akane Tsunemori

Thomas Jefferson
From far, from eve and morning, And yon twelve-winded sky, The stuff of life to knit me, Blew hither: here am I. -A.E. Housman

John Adams
Greg Bishansky

There's only one way to post when you're first stateside today...

...George Washington!

Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
"It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known."