A Station Eight Fan Web Site


The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending January 31, 2016

Index : Hide Images

Don't know if anyone watches Robot Chicken (please forgive if this has been posted before), but Gargoyles was featured in the last episdoe I saw. Here is the link:


Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]

Harlan - I don't necessarily disagree with your conclusions, but you are constantly using (unintentionally) facetious arguments to "prove" them. As if they needed proving.

So let's start where we agree: without a doubt, Disney is NOT the enemy. There is no victory over the company that the fans have to WIN. The notion is preposterous on its face. We do want to do (positive) things that remind Disney that Gargoyles exists, that potentially there's money to be made there. But it's silliness to view generating that attention as a victory OVER Disney. Because any success is a victory FOR Disney. Gargoyles wouldn't/doesn't/won't exist without Disney, so it makes zero sense to root AGAINST Disney in any way, shape or form. That's just logic and requires no theories to justify the obvious.

Having said that, you're still viewing the company as a monolith - though you pay lip service to the reverse. You think folks at Disney approved Lucasfilm's decision to list Gargoyles as my primary credit. They didn't. Lucasfilm has its own publicity department that is almost 100% autonomous on something as insignificant as what credit to list under one producer's name on the small amount of promotion that I was included on for Star Wars Rebels. And let's face it, what ELSE would they list as my credit? Young Justice, a Warner Bros. property? The even more obscure W.I.T.C.H.? The Spectacular Spider-Man (when sister division Marvel is trying to pretend that show never existed)?

Even saying that they pushed me and Gargoyles over Simon is a joke. Simon was their big get - or so they thought. Then way after the fact, they realized that to the animation fan base of Rebels and Star Wars that I was a bigger name. It's only in this incredibly limited world - this small pond - that anyone at all would view me as a bigger name than Simon, who is a legit big fish in the bigger pond of Hollywood. So it caught them off guard. Then the Lucasfilm people realize, gee, the fans are going a bit nuts over Weisman. What has he done? And Filoni or someone says "He created GARGOYLES; it was a great show!" And the publicity people say, "Cool! We'll put that title under his name." No one stops to check whether that's okay. It's insignificant either way.

As for Gargoyles having more recent success in getting attention relative to Kim Possible or Talespin or whatever, I think it's objectively true that we have. But that doesn't come from Disney, let alone from a Disney-driven strategy. It comes from me and from the fans PUSHING. Sometimes our efforts work. Sometimes they don't. Even the Joe Books stuff is coming not from Disney but from Joe Books - who have an overall comic book license from Disney (and can, with approval, pick and choose what they want to publish). And most of Joe Books interest is coming from Aaron Sparrow personally. He's a fan, who happens to be in a position to help.

The cinestory approach actually comes from retailers, who think they'll have an easier time relaunching the property that way, because screen cap comics are (at least currently) doing well for them. Go figure. But again, that's not a DISNEY strategy. It's just an evolving situation. A confluence of events, so to speak.

It's so much LESS organized and thought out than you seem to think. You say that the truth probably lies somewhere between your perception and mine. I can barely even grant you that at all. But if it does, it is SO MUCH WAY CLOSER to mine than yours, it's not even a contest.

But again, I don't disagree with the conclusion you're drawing. But that emerges from sheer common sense of ownership laws. It has nothing to do with your "conspiracy" theory.

Greg Weisman

When I saw that poll from Aaron Sparrow I knew within a second that Gargoyles is gonna win. First of all a ton of Sparrow's followers are Gargoyles fans. At least since the announcement of Joe Books putting out new Darkwing comics or the announcent of the Gargoyle cinestory , it was reason enough to follow Sparrow's twitter because there might be some news. This can't be said about any of the other choices, f.e. the Talespin fan website didn't even make a news story about it even though it would've been news worthy in my opinion...

There is no way Gargoyles wouldn't have won and considering only about 500 ppl participated, this poll does not represent the average audience anyway... So this poll was redundant and didn't change anything.

I still think Gargoyles would have a chance in a more "honest" poll though...

Neill - [neillgargoyle(a)gmail dot com]
watch my Demona AMV: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNGrg5Wm12E

What exactly is going here?

You know, I was looking through Tumblr the other day, and I saw a post about Greg Weisman that kind of irked me. I think it's about one of his latest works, like for a comic or whatever. A user said something about whatever show or comics Weisman works is "cursed" to be cancelled, so s/he hopes that he doesn't work on it. Do people seriously believe in the "Greg Weisman's curse" or whatever people are calling it? That's really stupid.


HARLAN> "But when you have a fanbase that's literally arguing screencaps of a cartoon will prove Gargoyles's appeal to more literate audiences"

Only one person was saying such a thing, and one person does not make an entire fandom.

Greg Bishansky

Part of it is being glib and part of it is me making a point.

I don't doubt the constant turnover, nor do I doubt the varying levels of opinion (which, again, is part of my first point anyway). But from an outsider's perspective, which is all I really have to go by?

Even most recently, Gargoyles was used in a big way to pimp out your role on Rebels. I think to the nebulous marketing people that drift in and out must have SOME indication of your association is seen, at least by a tangibly recent group of suits in SOME department, is a brand integrity in of itself. They wouldn't have mentioned you far more than Simon Kinberg, or they wouldn't have approved Lucasfilm doing that, pick your wording, if that wasn't at least somewhat the case. I'm sure your internal experience, as you've expressed, greatly differs...but the stuff that breaks through at the very least is very good at suggesting otherwise, or perhaps suggesting the two of our perspectives are clouded by vastly different timing, and the answer may lie somewhere in the middle (if slanted more toward your end than mine, just based on you having more information).

But that's marketing for you?

My point is in the abstract. I don't especially mind my conspiracy theories being erroneous, or me being incorrect about how that exact poll was constructed, that's not the point. I can stand being incorrect about the poll's construction and even admit Chip being correct when I'm wrong...but it also doesn't really disprove my wider point, either. It merely disproves my argument.

Which, in that case, in good form, I admit I'm wrong and just propose a counterargument: There's nothing about Disney's recent press that really suggests they as a corporation, or at least, the monolith that they present to the world after their various opinions have been sussed out and tested into a singular presentation, really see Gargoyles as a detriment. Internally, that may be vastly different and vary from person to person. But between Disney willingly adding Gargoyles to the SLG license, or at the very least approving Lucasfilm to have Gargoyles's legacy as a Disney property front and center when pimping out the first product they rolled out for what's the biggest cinematic property in history, it's been far more likely for Gargoyles's media presence to be OVERWHELMINGLY POSITIVE, if not recently deemed outright advantageous, to use than for it to be displayed as some sort of black sheep franchise.

Which is my point. My previous argument being devastated doesn't weaken the wider point it fights for as much as it just has to tag out: there's NOTHING in how Disney's handled the Gargoyles franchise since The Goliath Chronicles ended to suggest it's an underdog if you compare it to other properties (again, Kim Possible's arguably had it much worse, particularly in the home media department).

And that's what sticks with me. I'd prefer a spin off, sure, but Gargoyles as an overall PROPERTY is one I love. And it strikes me a little ridiculous for fans to act like they're the underdog finally proving the big old bad corporation that their soulless profits don't matter (by...giving them money and proving the product is...profitable?) when Gargoyles's most recent media presence was used as a positive association toward one of their bigger acquisitions, literally suggesting that Gargoyles's quality would speak for Star Wars's quality going forward. I don't think they HAD to do that, but they did.

Based on that alone, along with the brand's history when it actually DOES break through into the public consciousness always being pretty positive, I still protest this idea that Gargoyles fandom is some underdog proving big meanie corporations that we were right all along and Gargoyles is thus the bestest. I think the times they've found it to their advantage, they've been more than happy to agree. But when you have a fanbase that's literally arguing screencaps of a cartoon will prove Gargoyles's appeal to more literate audiences, or arguing a poll shows how wrong Disney must be after they approved introductory products to reintroduce the brand, even my conspiracy theories are at least slightly closer to reality than most.

Only slightly, though. I just don't see why Gargoyles getting a media push has to be seen as some higher, grand victory as much as it's just the nostalgia boom sliding closer and the owning parties figuring out a way to use it to play ball. It seems like every little victory Gargoyles as a brand gets, even at its most basic, seems more of an excuse for people to say how vastly more intelligent Gargoyles fandom is than others...when their reasons often express this cannot be the case.

Harlan of Ash and Foam
Let the ol' tail wag.

Although, in general, I agree with Harlan's FIRST post on this subject, I feel I should point out that Aaron Sparrow doesn't work for Disney. He freelances for Joe Books. And I don't even know if Joe Books asked him to do that poll or if the enthusiastic Aaron just decided to do that himself.

I don't know if that alters anyone's perception as much as Chip's clarification does/did. But it seemed worth pointing out.

One other thing. No one sees ME as a brand. TRUST ME. The folks at Disney publishing who paired us with SLG, only did that after Creature Comics (i.e. a partnership I was part of) approached Disney about Gargoyles. And those Disney Publishing people who made that pairing are all long gone. Collectively, I doubt many people at Disney know who I am anymore. Usually, when Gargoyles gets brought up, Disney suggests some folks for it. When they're told I'm available and that I'm the creator, sometimes they say, "Oh, cool!" And sometimes they just don't care. The thing to remember is that Disney is a corporation made up of individuals and that there is constant turnover. That some individuals at the corporation may hold one opinion while others hold other opinions and most - particularly on the subject of Gargoyles - hold no opinion at all regarding this relatively obscure subject.

There is no monolith.

Greg Weisman

I'll admit I'm a little surprised Ducktales didn't place, though I suppose since the Darkwing reprint's been done, people presumed that's already a given.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

Harlan> Um...The poll didn't come with a list of options. Aaron Sparrow asked an open question and compiled the results. There wasn't a box with "Gargoyles" or "Kim Possible" next to it. He asked "Now that Darkwing Duck is coming back as a comic, what Disney property would you like to see next?"

And then people responded. "Gargoyles" was the most popular answer in his twitter and facebook feeds, followed by "Kim Possible" There wasn't a box you could check, or a voting booth. Literally every response was write-in. And the write-in votes resulted in Gargs for #1 and KP for #2, followed by Talespine and Rescue Rangers.

Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. ~~C.S. Lewis

You can lament that urge for profit all you want, but for intellectual honesty's sake you'd at least have to acknowledge that it's that same soulless desire for more money that allowed Gargoyles to be the entity it was in the first place. And I don't even mean it getting greenlit: we have it documented that season two's big, robust worldbuilding and multi-layered storytelling was, largely, a stealth marketing ploy for Disney's own action hero universe. Peppered with multiple character arcs who, from a logistical point of view, really only exist to bleed into spin offs. Season 2 is assembly line whimsy with a greater purpose that existed largely to present an alternative to purchasing Marvel, who was going through bankruptcy at the time, and finally having their own in to the boys' action market. The fact that Weisman, Paur, Reaves, et al. happened to care about it very deeply, and Weisman considering it his baby and life's work may be the primary detail to fanboys and girls like us, but truth is it's a very secondary reality to how the property's handled...even now.

I mean, the poll doesn't seem stacked at all to you? I think someone could make a fair argument that KIM POSSIBLE'S been pretty blatantly slaughtered at the alter to appease our rodent gods. Kim Possible, the show that:

-Somehow justified breaking Disney's usual syndication rules, yet the ENTIRE series, across multiple DVD sets, were exclusive to their movie club for the longest time, when the first big press they ever got was an article on ToonZone about how surprised the author was they EXISTED AT ALL, despite the clear and obvious popularity (compare to Gargoyles, which only had one set put under the same restriction, with DVD sets that had Disney-endorse special features all about how enduring and great the show is and how a powerful force the fandom is).

-Weisman has very openly told the story of how outright difficult it was for Kim Possible to be produced on multiple occasions: three different focus tests, each one's results twisted and tainted so that the information from the test (overwhelmingly positive audience reception!) could be read as an excuse to not greenlight the show. Compare this to Gargoyles, whose acquisition in the mogul era allowed it to not only sneak through with a bit of uniqueness, but have that uniqueness taken advantage of for future gain...and before you protest, note that in the era of committee control, the SLG comic specifically happened because that committee liked using Gargoyles's status as a creator's vision for a little bit of scratch when the deal they making didn't obligate its inclusion...so, historically, they see Weisman as the brand, maybe not necessarily Gargoyles.

In fact! In that light, there's certainly something interesting about the fact that a Weisman-less Gargoyles movie...wasn't the GARGOYLES, capital G, intellectual property. There's such an evidenced association that Weisman=Gargoyles that they're actually willing to make an outside gargoyle-related pitch IT'S OWN BRAND. That's not something I care for personally, but in context is certainly an interesting thought, I'd say.

-A poll where you can vote for more Gargoyles material right after the Gargoyles cinestory, and hints of more Gargoyles material, seems like it's blatantly building grounds support...that property being a clear shoe-in to win a hypothetical competition. Not to mention that Kim Possible's own Tokyopop "CineManga", essentially the same thing, was published in 2003, when the show was in vogue and starting up. Announcing the publishing of a book that has a precedence as a purely cheap tie-in product and then making it seem like the audience can decide if this blatantly foreshadowed poll could determine a product being made...HMMMM...

-Gargoyles is notoriously outside of Disney's comfort zone when it comes to marketing, sure, but what about Kim Possible? An action series based on a woman, but not a woman you could market as a Disney Princess, or really, say, put on Once Upon a Time...she's not Marvel, so no Agents of SHIELD...hrrrm. She's really got nothing that fits what we do, maybe never did (those good numbers, ehh, ehh, not important), but she DOES have a large internet fandom and they were putting that convention together, right? It'd look similar enough to another property we have, on pure surface culture, that it'd seem like a pretty tough opponent for the series we WANT to win...

-...so we better make sure to put it, just in case, with the other Disney Afternoon series. That'll be fair, right? Two pulp comedies, two action shows, it'll look fair. And we're in the 90's nostalgia boom right now, it's kicking up, so Kim Possible couldn't ACTUALLY win. It belongs on a poll with the likes of Lilo and Stitch, American Dragon, et al., but it's popular on the net. Nobody'll notice.

Now, let's step back and be fair. Was there REALLY a carefully orchestrated attempt to play on 90's kid nostalgia and Gargoyles fandom elitism to simultaneously make new Gargoyles product both a sure thing but also make it come off like an underdog victory to do the revival they'd maybe always WANTED SLG to be, like they saw the power of their nostalgic properties in these financially manageable forms and given how okay it did without them, could only imagine what it'd do with actual backing in a cultural wave that empowers it? Could they have WANTED to empower the fanbase it's honored and supported on and off, knowing that given them a sense of vindication after years and years of failed grassroots marketing would actually INCREASE the enthusiasm when they were finally able to find a place they felt it'd do the best?

It couldn't be that Kim Possible, extremely out of place with its opponents on the Disney Afternoon populated poll, was used for its surface level similarities to Gargoyles's own cultural impact to make it a convenient opponent for Gargoyles to defeat and validate a fandom that's incredibly passionate and outspoken, could it?

Gargoyles fans wouldn't be so elitist to buy into that level of shallow validation, would they?

Paul>"I remember making a post a while ago about how Gargoyles appealed to a more mature, literate audience than most TV shows, and that it therefore might do better as a book (or series of books) than as a TV show.

I guess we'll be testing that hypothesis soon; I hope it does sell well."

[SPOILER] Gargoyles was always going to win that poll. The fact you think you're beating Disney's preconceptions is probably what they want for the underdog narrative they've tried, and apparently succeeded in, constructing. It's so obviously stacked in Gargoyles's favor. But shadows still conceal their Light, and they're playing onto the fact you haven't noticed vengeance is a sucker's game for a bit of that profit you're lamenting as you're excited to give them money.

Happy for the high probability of more comics, though. I'd prefer a spin off, like New Olympians or 2198, over a straight continuation, but eh! It'll be a fun comic, and it's neat to see Gargoyles as the blatantly backed horse for once. [/SPOILER]

Harlan of Ash and Foam
Let the ol' tail wag.

Sorry for the double post. Excuse my mistakes in my previous post. Typing on my phone isn't ideal for long messages.

I didn't hear anything about Facebook. Didn't matter anyone since I don't have an account.

Disney is notorious for withholding the "Gargoyles" franchise and never doing a thing with it after the SGL comics were released. It took them over eight years just to release S2, Part 2. They only want things that they they think that can bring profit. "Gargoyles" is a very beloved franchise, and as shown with the recent polls, it dominated majority of the voters. It's satisfying to know how much fans want the series to come back, even if it's in a cinestory format. :)

Besides, people said a whole lot of worse things about Disney than my "Take THAT!" comment. :P away nastier things, in fact... Well, I know I shouldn't be rubbing things into a major corporate company's face. ^^;

By the way, whatever happened to that Touchstone's production of a "Gargoyles" film. I was browsing through the Gargwiki a few days ago, but the plate is outdated and the link to the website is invalid. I know it's been cancelled, but I never heard a reason why.


Actually the voting was available for Twitter AND Facebook. I voted via Facebook.
Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. ~~C.S. Lewis

NinjaSheik>"CONGRATS TO "GARGOYLES"! :D Take THAT, Disney!"

Disney added Gargoyles to SLG's licensing deal when SLG hadn't originally asked for it. Whatever mixed things have occurred with how the property's been handled, maybe it's not best to randomly shit on large entities with personnel of varying priorities and opinions when historically they're pretty willing to play ball if the incentive is reasonable enough.

Harlan of Ash and Foam
Let the ol' tail wag.


Too bad that only Twitter fans could vote, though. :(


Seems like this Aaron Sparrow is one of the good guys as in he gets it. Gargoyles isn't Gargoyles with Greg Weisman.
Anthony Tini

Well done for "Gargoyles"! And on Robert Burns' birthday, too! (Well, the bulk of the clan *are* Scottish, even though we don't know if they've discovered his work they way they've done with Shakespeare and Dostoyevsky.)
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are really good finders

Ten and One.

Gargoyles didn't just win, it massacred: https://twitter.com/Aaron_Sparrow/status/690767994209734657

Greg Bishansky

Nine and Two!
From far, from eve and morning, And yon twelve-winded sky, The stuff of life to knit me, Blew hither: here am I. -A.E. Housman

Eight and Three.
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"Oh, another angel? I must have missed one." - Bayonetta

Seven and four!

I hereby claim a (mathematically) perfect sixth and a (musically) perfect fifth!
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

Fifth and/or Sixth d:
"The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Four of Seven.
Resistance is futile. Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service us.

(3rd)Third!!! and (8th)Eighth!!!!!!!!
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]

Darn it... Two and Nine!
Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

Let's see if we can do another simultaneous countup and countdown.

One and Ten!

Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

Happy Monday, friends!

What was this twitter poll you guys were talking about last week?

Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Now, now... Language.