ALGERNON - Yes, I've been used to seeing them as the same place (partly thanks to my initial learning about Norse mythology from the d'Aulaires' "Norse Gods and Giants", which equated them). I've seen theories that an alternate name for Helheim was Niflhel, which was so similar to "Niflheim", that it became easy to confuse them. (I'll confess that I liked fusing the two, since that way, Niflheim would have a role past its function in forming Ymir the first frost giant at the beginning - alongside Muspelheim - which, admittedly, drops out of the story until the end, when Surtur and his forces emerge for Ragnarok to burn everything up.)
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are really good finders
posted @ Fri, Dec 1, 2017 9:58:59 pm EST from 24.251.84.117

TODD> Honestly, I've never understood what the difference between Niflheim and Helheim was supposed to even be? As I understand it, they're both realms of eternal cold filled with the souls of the dishonored dead and ruled by the goddess Hela?
Algernon
I guard your death
posted @ Fri, Dec 1, 2017 6:56:08 pm EST from 109.76.223.242

Neighboring clans probably engaged in occasional communication at least. And individual gargoyles probably found mates from neighboring clans from time to time. With clans spread all over the world, genes could spread around too. In more modern times, clans became more isolated. And we are seeing regional variations as a result, but there has just not been enough time for full blown speciation to happen.
Matt - [Saint Charles, Missouri, USA]
"For SCIENCE, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward." - Sevarius
posted @ Thu, Nov 30, 2017 9:16:57 pm EST from 99.153.193.91

Matt: I'm not sure that inter-clan matings would be all that frequent. Leaving one's protectorate and relocating to a new one doesn't strike me as a decision one would undertake lightly. (Granted, as the Xanadu and Pukhan clans prove, some protectorates are more inherently mobile than others.) But overall, I would think that the nature of gargoyles would, after a few million years, lend itself to greater speciation than one would find in some other species.
Spen
posted @ Thu, Nov 30, 2017 1:05:55 am EST from 174.255.133.126

Spen> Keep in mind that up until a few thousand years ago, gargoyles were quite widespread and numerous. Clans were nearly everywhere and I'm sure gargoyles would find mates in other clans frequently enough. So, there has not been enough time for speciation to really take place. A few thousand years is just not that long, especially considering how slow gargoyles reproduce.

But I do think you are right about a somewhat recent common ancestor to the existing clans. I've thought something along those lines for years. And my best guess is that many of the clans we see today are descended from an Atlantean Clan, at least in part, the survivors of which settled on BOTH sides of the Atlantic and beyond. My personal hunch is that gargoyles in Europe (including the UK) tended towards the more feathery/furry look in ancient times. And I think most Atlantean gargoyles looked more like the Wyvern Clan (the Praying Gargoyle has their look and is Atlantean). When Atlantis sank, gargoyles escaped and went east and settled in Scotland, which is why the Scottish gargoyles look so different from the London Clan. Some Atlantean gargoyles might've interbred with the ancestors of the London Clan and Mayan Clan as well. Coco of London has wings that don't seem typical for a London garg and may indicate Atlantean ancestry. Of course, if my hunch is correct, then Goliath and his clan are descended from gargoyles that lived on Atlantis. That would be interesting.
Matt - [Saint Charles, Missouri, USA]
"For SCIENCE, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward." - Sevarius
posted @ Tue, Nov 28, 2017 8:36:09 pm EST from 99.153.193.91

Since we've had both Svartalfheim (the realm of the dark elves) and Nidavellir (the realm of the dwarves) claimed, that means we've committed ourselves to their being separate worlds, and the dark elves distinct from the dwarves. That means that, to keep the tally to nine worlds, we'll have to go for the theory that Niflheim and Helheim are the same (which I'm at home with; the d'Aulaires' "Norse Gods and Giants", my introduction to Norse mythology, took the same route). And Helheim's been named, so no cries of "Niflheim" for this week.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are really good finders
posted @ Tue, Nov 28, 2017 7:12:23 pm EST from 24.251.84.117

Okay, I'll just gain a few meters in height and claim Jotunheim.
Spen
posted @ Tue, Nov 28, 2017 1:35:19 pm EST from 173.30.247.216

Svartalfheim!

A question on Gargoyle biology. As far as we can tell, Gargoyles from different clans are able to interbreed and produce viable offspring. Now, I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I would think that given the geographical remoteness of the various clans, after enough generations of seperation, they would cease to be reproductivly compatible. So to my thinking, this would indicate that somewhere in the relatively recent past, there would have to be a "most recent common ancestor" to the current clans (not including beasts). Which seems a little odd for an order that has existed since the Mesozoic. Perhaps there was a mass extinction of more divergent species sometime before humans came on the scene? I doubt that human activity alone can explain this; I don't think most humans would differentiate much between scary stone monsters. Unless perhaps the other species were more adapted to riverbank protectorates, and therefore more likely to have negative interactions with invasive humans, but we're getting into hypotheticals based on hypotheticals here.
Spen
posted @ Tue, Nov 28, 2017 1:32:39 pm EST from 173.30.247.216

I mean, Svartalfheim.
Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Tue, Nov 28, 2017 12:51:44 pm EST from 73.168.138.126

I don't know if Alfheim is the seventh, but by process of elimination, I have a 33% chance of being correct (if everyone else was).
Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Tue, Nov 28, 2017 12:51:24 pm EST from 73.168.138.126

Muspelheim (6)
Supermorff
posted @ Tue, Nov 28, 2017 12:13:23 pm EST from 185.62.85.148

Alfheim!
Ross
posted @ Tue, Nov 28, 2017 1:00:07 am EST from 68.38.23.162

*Does some research*

Nidavellir! Fourth!
Matt - [Saint Charles, Missouri, USA]
"For SCIENCE, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward." - Sevarius
posted @ Mon, Nov 27, 2017 9:11:41 pm EST from 99.153.193.91

Well, since you guys have already mentioned two of the THREE worlds from which Yggdrasil's roots drink (and because I recently saw Thor: Ragnarok), I'll go with the last: Helheim.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Mon, Nov 27, 2017 11:51:19 am EST from 104.129.196.115

Midgard.

(The "Nine Worlds" in Norse mythology is a tricky subject; while the term arose so often in the Norse myths, they never provided a definite list. People still debate whether the worlds of the dark elves and the dwarves were the same (with "dark elves" being another name for the dwarves or a separate group), or whether Niflheim and Hel's kingdom of the dead were the same or different worlds.)
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are really good finders
posted @ Mon, Nov 27, 2017 7:30:07 am EST from 24.251.84.117

Continuing the last conversation, let's see if we can get all Nine Realms.

Asgard
Matthew
Muscles fade and the mind dulls.But as long as the heart is willing, strength remains.
posted @ Mon, Nov 27, 2017 12:01:32 am EST from 98.210.213.66