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Comments for the week ending August 12, 2018

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I'm also Irish (plus English, Scottish, French, mostly German and some Nordic because my ancestors didn't believe in the sun).

The Hound of Ulster was my introduction to Irish mythology (in fact the World Tour arc was my introduction to a lot of different mythologies) and I only kinda knew what the banshee was before that so I don't mind a differences within the interpretation.
Though I will admit I wasn't a fan of turning Raven into a far more malicious character. Mostly because I do love the stories of the tribes of the Pacific Northwest. I even got a necklace with Raven printed on it when I visited Alaska.

Insert Inspirational Quote Here:________

I haven't posted in a long time, but I still check in regularly.

I'm fine with Young Justice conversation here, but it sure is great to be talking about Gargoyles again, too.

Not being Irish, I had no problem with "The Hound of Ulster" but early viewings did leave me slightly confused and wanting more.

The best part about the World Tour for me was that it took a mythology based in Scotland (and transplanted to New York) and spread it into a world-wide mythology. The worst part is that by necessity it had to be spread very thinly. Each episode only scratched the surface of a deep well of possibilities, as evidenced by the fact that half the spin-offs are grounded in World Tour events (Pendragon, The New Olympians, and Heroes of Ulster.

Phil - [p1anderson at yahoo dot com]

Aside from the few forgivable missteps with Hound of Ulster, I love that episode. I mean, check out my avatar!

I know with every episode, particularly the World Tour eps, there was never enough time and space to cram in all the possibilities, but this episode would've been a fun place to see an example of remembrance of a gargoyle clan that didn't survive. We saw lots of clans during the World Tour that were holding on, but it would've been fun to let Goliath and Co take a look at some gargoyle world history. There was once a mighty clan here and now there isn't. It would've linked up with Bronx's possibly being an original Irish beast reborn nicely.

Another thing I would've loved to see is rookeries full of eggs. This would've been hard to do in London, but in Ishimura and ChacIxChel, it would have been so cool to see the camera panning over a rookery full of eggs as those clans are giving tours and conversing with Goliath and Co. I think eggs, in addition to young gargoyles the age of Lunette, more than just more adult gargoyles, would've driven home the idea that gargoyles were not extinct and they were really holding on here and there. We have a clan of adult gargoyles in Manhattan. To see hatchlings and eggs would've been awesome and new.

Matt - [Saint Charles, Missouri, USA]
"For SCIENCE, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward." - Sevarius

Masterdramon: Old enough to have a grip on what I did and didn't like when it comes to storytelling. HoU didn't bug me because I liked Rory, and I was accustomed to a villainous take on the Banshee thanks to Darby O'Gill. Heritage (and especially Monsters) bugged me at the time because Raven, Grandmother and Natsilani simply didn't really come off as interesting. Time has had nothing to do with it.
How very.

I remember someone bringing up that Cuchulain's encounter with the Morrigan (an Irish goddess of war and death) in the original Irish legends does echo the Gargoyles Universe Cuchulain's history with the Banshee.
Todd Jensen

"All things are true.... few are accurate."
Greg Bishansky

Honestly, coming up with Watsonian explanations for Doylist errors is some of the most fun one has with headcanon in my opinion. I'm rather proud of what I came up with to explain one of the major problems with Heritage.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

MASTERDRAMON> I admit watching Hound of Ulster for the first time as a kid was a bit of a trip.

Being Irish, the story of Cú Chulainn is something we get drilled into us at school so seeing the Banshee depicted as his arch-enemy and the titular Hound being a separate entity rather than Cú's own title was a tad... jarring. But as you say, producing a weekly television series in the pre-wikipedia ages leaves precious little time for research.

Fortunately, it ain't too hard to square HoU with the original mythology with a little creative headcannoning.

But... you already knew that. ;)

Evil beware, we have waffles

Spen: First off, to clarify, the specific wording I used was that some things "have aged better than others." As ahead of its time it was in a lot of respects, it's actually sort of surprising how much about it holds up nearly timelessly. But obviously the degree to which individual pieces hold up is going to vary quite a bit.

Also, I'm not sure how old you were when you first watched the series, but I first took it in when I was an undiscerning grade-schooler watching the reruns on the newly minted Toon Disney (I was too young to have watched any of the original run). So nothing really "irked" me at the time because I didn't see any flaws in what quickly became one of my favorite shows.

But if you'd asked me at the time I would've said the same thing about The Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog, sooooo...

Anyway, off the top of my head, while I greatly appreciate what it was trying to do and I appreciate the additions most of the individual episodes made to the grand Gargoyles Universe tapestry, I think it's pretty clear in hindsight that a lot of the World Tour could've been executed better than it was.

Much of that, of course, was simply a matter of resources. The second season was produced on such a cutthroat schedule that the amount of research necessary to make each of the "stops" feel as real and genuine as, say, the Shakespearean elements that are much closer to Greg's heart...simply wasn't going to happen. Greg has admitted as such in his various episode rambles.

For example, "The Hound of Ulster" was my first introduction to Cu Chullain as a concept, so of course as a kid it didn't bother me that the episode only really scratches the surface of his mythology...and, bluntly, still manages to get several key things blatantly wrong. Now that I know more about the richness of Irish lore, it's hard not to go back and dock the episode a few points for that.

I still love Rory and Molly, and am intrigued as to how their spinoff might've paid off, don't get me wrong. But for the one chapter of their story that HAS been told, I think it's hard to deny it comes up short compared to the show's recontextualization of stories Greg and co. did have a firmer grasp on at the time.

And then on the extreme end of that scale, there's "Heritage," which...oi. I had no particular issues with it as a kid, though it was never exactly a favorite, but watching it in 2018 it's very difficult to avoid cringing. Definitely my vote for the episode that's aged the least gracefully out of the original 65.

Outside of that, though, most of my issues come down to nitpicks and quibbles. Which I have for almost all of my favorite shows. Sure, I can look at this show and deeeeeeefinitely know it's a product of the 90s, but it's also probably the best product of the 90s (or durn close) and easily manages to stand alongside its many worthy successors.

Whether any of them have managed to surpass it, though (in answer to Matthew's point)? I don't know, honestly. I think, as indicated in my previous post, that there are certainly aspects in which it's been edged out by the very best TV animation has had to offer in the two decades since it ended (of which I would count, on a VERY short list, W.I.T.C.H., SpecSpidey, YJ, Avatar: The Last Airbender/The Legend of Korra, Adventure Time, Steven Universe, Gravity Falls, Star vs. The Forces of Evil, Over the Garden Wall, and a metric buttload of anime).

But overall? Harder to say, and I don't really have an answer. I love it all, though. Again, it's just a matter of degrees.

Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"I thought I could do it. But I can't. Being with you is like looking at my old life through a funhouse mirror. Ha Ha! It's driving me mad! Ha Ha Ha..." - Betty Grof

Masterdramon: Out of curiosity, what do you think hasn't aged well? Off the top of my head, I can't think of anything that irks me now but didn't at the time. Aside from maybe a few things technologically that make it an 'unintentional period piece'. But those are pretty easy to ignore.
How very.

You know I never really put much thought in grading Greg's work in comparison to each other. Mostly because they're quite different from each other and in my opinion among the best in their respective genres. Young Justice and the Spectacular Spider-Man are one of my favorites in terms of comic book related media and Gargoyles is still an amazing animated drama that I think hasn't been surpassed by any other animated series thus far.
Insert Inspirational Quote Here:________

You're right, Bishansky. I couldn't help myself, but I won't respond to his baiting from now on.

And away we go on with the show!!!!!!!!!!
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
Deplorable and loving it!

Don't feed the troll.
Greg Bishansky

"Amazing. Every word of what you just said is wrong."

Weird. I did a quick Google search and didn't find any news about a revival for the other lesser shows.


I will NINTH (kinda...not really) the vote that this is an appropriate forum for all of Greg Weisman's works to be discussed. Outsiders simply happens to be the one that's actually getting new material right now.

And I would personally side somewhere in between the two extremes. There are aspects of all of Greg's major shows that I think are pulled off better in each than in their peers.

"Gargoyles" is still always going to be my personal favorite, if only for the rich, broad, largely original mythology it draws up (most of Greg's later works, from YJ to SpecSpidey to W.I.T.C.H., are adaptations of existing tapestries, though in no way do I think this makes them "lesser"). But I think it's hard to deny there are aspects of it that have aged better than others, looking through a 2018 lens.

To deny that outright is to deny Greg's ability to have grown as a writer after 20+ years of additional experience.

Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"I thought I could do it. But I can't. Being with you is like looking at my old life through a funhouse mirror. Ha Ha! It's driving me mad! Ha Ha Ha..." - Betty Grof

"Young Justice > Spectacular Spider-Man > Gargoyles"

Amazing. Every word of what you just said is wrong.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

<checks carefully>

Eighth. I'm fine with YJO discussion in here.

Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

Young Justice > Spectacular Spider-Man > Gargoyles

Just wanna say that Greg did some amazing work on Spectacular Spider-Man. I've been rewatching it and I wanted to commend him for the way he made Peter and Curt Connor's stories parallel each other.
Enosch - [enoschhenry at yahoo dot com]

ROSS - I missed that note, but it seems appropriate to me, given that the episode was set in an old Scottish castle.

(I did spot a lot of references to Don Rosa's "Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck". The character designs for Scrooge's parents came from there, as did the story of how Scrooge earned his No. 1 Dime, and the various McDuck ancestors, such as the one who invented the longbow. In Rosa's description of the McDuck family's past, the McDuck ancestor responsible for the longbow did indeed do business with the English in 1066, when they were facing the Norman invasion - unfortunately, the English still lost at the Battle of Hastings, despite the McDuck longbows, because they didn't read the fine print in the contract: "Arrows cost extra.")

Todd Jensen

I meant to type 'nor'.
How very.


Dang, they used the Gummi Bears and I missed it? Ugh, I hate not having cable.

Count me in on the side of keeping YJ here. We didn't do anything about it when the show was on the air, no did we do anything about SSM or W.I.T.C.H. discussions, so it would be downright silly to limit it now, when we can't even get through a top ten race half the time. Even if we still were using dial-up connections, it would be silly.

How very.


I pretty much agree with Jurgan. At least where things stand now Weisman-content-wise, I don't see any pressing need to limit the YJ talk here.

On an unrelated note...I was watching the latest episode of the new Ducktales, and about 8 minutes or so in there's a brief musical cue that I swear sounds exactly like one Carl Johnson used for the Gargoyles score.

(And now that's got me thinking...the show has referenced several other Disney Afternoon series...maybe we can look forward at some point to some defenders of the night showing up in some form? I mean, if the Gummi Bears can canonically exist in this universe...)


There are lots of active forums for Young Justice, I'm sure, so someone could easily go join one of those. Because of that, though, I don't think it has to be off-limits for this room. If this were the only place for fans, maybe we should split it into different comment rooms. But this is more a place for fans of Greg Weisman, and since there are so few of us who come here regularly I'd say we're in no danger of drowning out other topics. Now, if Gargoyles were getting new episodes, we might have to make some rules about how much non-Gargoyles chat was allowed, but as it is I think any discussion is fine. I personally don't expect to get involved, as I only mildly liked YJ and don't plan on watching the third season, but I have no problem scrolling past others' conversations.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

MATTHEW - Good question, and I'm not sure what my vote would be.

On the one hand, "Young Justice" really ought to have its own forum. On the other hand, if the discussions about it really do shift to another forum, that could lead this one with even less to talk about. (I'm unlikely to participate in the "Young Justice" discussion, whatever we do, since I haven't been following the news about it, and probably won't be watching the streaming since I'm not familiar enough with the technology for it.)

Todd Jensen

First off I'd like to pose a question to the chat.
Should we continue speculation on Young Justice's third season here, or would another forum be more appropriate?

Insert Inspirational Quote Here:________