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Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending January 26, 2020

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Wow, what a throwback! Thanks for posting!
Window Cleaning Long Beach - [longbeachwindowcleaners at gmail dot com]
Kate S.

Hi Mr. Weisman. I have a question for you:

I don't know if you are aware, but in the "Early Warning" episode of Whelmed: The Young Justice Files (back in Oct. 2019) the host quoted you on something you told him in conversation. This is something that used to happen now and then, but lately it happens in almost every episode: "Greg texted me this", "Brandon emailed me that", "Greg/Brandon told me whatever", etc.

So, looking at your 2-year-4-month-and-1-day backlog of 1209 questions, I'm wondering: why are you giving BTS information to this one person while the rest of your fanbase has to submit questions and wait months (at least) or YEARS (worst case and more likely scenario) for an answer???? It must be really cool to be so intimate and chummy with one's idol, and I bet the host feels super important and validated, but this is some double standard bullshit!

Are you aware of this? And if you are, how can you be okay with it? Don't you think this is unfair? You have thousands of fans who support your work whichever way they can, but 99.9% of them have never even met you in person, let alone exchanged emails or text messages with you.

If I make an entire podcast dedicated to kissing your asses, will I earn the same privileges? Will I be able to ask all my questions without a waiting queue? Will I get to hang out with you, have lunch together or exchange personal contacts?

(Originally I posted this on AskGreg, but then I decided I shouldn't have to wait 2 years for an answer, for all the reasons above.)

Jordan

The clan clearly had time to get into the closet and close the door. And yet, Lex and Hudson emerge injured. Gotta wonder what it was like in that closet... And I wonder how things would've played out if one of the clan had died.
Matt

BISHANSKY - Thanks for posting the quote.
Todd Jensen

TODD> The script is up in GargWiki, I believe this is the section.

As Jason’s sky-sled zooms off into the distance, we get a closer look at the decimated tower. Rubble and debris are everywhere. Part of the ruins still burn. The TV set is broken and overturned. Lex’s laptop has been crushed by the clock’s giant roman numeral "FIVE". A giant clock hand skewers Hudson’s recliner. There’s a pile of debris in the center of the floor. A beat; then the pile stirs.

The rubble FALLS AWAY as GOLIATH slowly pushes the trapdoor open. He emerges, bruised and battered, but alive.

HUNTER/JON rises up on the hushed jets of his sky-sled. He watches Goliath, BROOKLYN, ANGELA and BRONX emerge. They are beaten up, but able to function. BROADWAY is halfway down the trap door passage, helping lift an injured and semi-conscious LEXINGTON up to them. One of Lex’s hands is clenched into a fist.

Greg Bishansky

Speaking of the destruction of the clock tower in "Hunter's Moon", one of my strongest memories from the 2001 Gathering was the description of its aftermath in the Radio Play version of "Hunter's Moon Part Three" there. The narration went into detail about how practically every single one of the gargoyles' worldly possessions (the television set, Hudson's recliner, Lexington's computer) were demolished, provoking some laughter among the audience. Sick laughter, perhaps, but prompted by the thoroughness of the damage.
Todd Jensen

MATT> It was definitely the broom closet. I tend to think they kept out of there just in case they were spotted. Who knows when the custodians are going to need a mop?
Greg Bishansky

Re: Angela> So, it wasn't just Angela wanting vengeance in those background notes. It was the whole clan. However, we don't see any sign of this in the actual episode. Broadway was just concerned with Angela. And the rest are silent. Seemingly just following orders. And there is nothing unreasonable about tracking them down. So, I think Angela was probably somewhat just following Goliath's lead, and somewhat after a little payback or at least another chance to tackle them. She might've even been embarrassed about nearly being killed by the Hunters. Hard to say. As for when Goliath returns, I'm sure she's glad to hear that the threat has been partially handled and probably glad to see everyone made it home alive and well. That could explain her feelings shortly before the Clocktower blows up.

And speaking of, did the clan take shelter in the broom closet? Or was that the "back room" where Coldstone and the three keys to power were stored for a time? It seems more like it was the closet. Makes me wonder if they'd ever gone in there before, or beyond. Funny to think of them walking the halls of the police station.

Matt

MATTHEW - Thanks for your latest review. The "Television can so not be trusted" line you mentioned was one of my favorite moments of this episode (it's right up there with Hudson's "Maybe we shouldn't believe everything we see on television" line in "The Thrill of the Hunt").
Todd Jensen

Masterdramon> Who's to say what would've happened? Anyway, watched "The Invisible Hand" today, which closes out the Economics trilogy of the season. And I just love the double meaning of the episode, not just the economic factor of using super villains but the notion that there's someone in the shadows behind it all. I really like the little triptych that went into his reveal, first Shocker reveals someone's paying him to get rid of Spider-Man, then Sandman let's The Big Man alias slip and finally Rhino provides the key needed to figuring out who he is.

One thing I didn't mention last time was the little nod to the body shop where the lab is hidden, it's marked LTL Body Shop. Have to say that working under Osborn certainly isn't a treat considering his not-too-subtle threats towards Octavius.

I have to question Osborn's wisdom here, I can understand making a costumed nut like the Rhino but if he really wants to corner the super mercenary market perhaps it's time to act smarter with your inventions. The titanium resin doesn't have to be bonded to the subject, simply allow the mold to form over an article of clothing and you've got the best body armor imaginable. You could put other manufacturers out of business and make bank selling to police and military as well as more shadier customers.

So in this episode Pete's chances with Betty Brant are pretty much shutdown for good, I do like some of the smaller details though like Aunt May actually liking Betty and calling her sensible. So while the age difference between the two of them can be subject to debate I actually do know a couple who started dating when she was 20 and when he was 16, and they've been married for about thirty years, so these sort of things can work out.

Over the past few episodes we've been getting to know J. Jonah Jameson more and this is the episode that delivers on what may be the most critical part of his character. Behind all of his bluster and muckraking he actually does care about his staff and wouldn't want anything to happen to them. I've seen plenty of times where comics or adaptations swing too far into the jerk side and forgetting the heart of gold part. But this episode gives us a look into that which will be explored later.

I liked the decision to show off O'Hirn before his transformation into Rhino, and the fact that he was a big, dumb thug even after the power boost. Plus we get another example of letting the characters find a way to escalate in the future. See, the thing about Rhino is that he's strong enough and tough enough to act as both the unstoppable force and immovable object, but in this episode we see that Spidey can know Rhino down (at least temporarily) with the assistance of some objects. In the future we see that he's at least learned to properly brace himself against impacts. I do like how he was taken down this episode and the science behind it, though I do know that sweating only from the face isn't going to work at all. Sweating's a cooling process for the whole body and isn't limited to just to warm external temperatures. Poor guy is going to suffer heat exhaustion or worse any time he he does extensive physical movement.

And then there's Tombstone; I wondered why Foswell would say that Lincoln was one of the good guys considering he'd be investigating him next season. Then it hit me, Parker is still pretty new to the Bugle and the staff don't know him quite so well yet. There's a good chance Foswell was providing a smokescreen until he could determine Parker's motivations (which is why the two of them are seen working together in season 2) or to cover himself in case the Big Man was sending people to weed out any information that could get to him. Tombstone himself makes a great impression and like Osborn has a plan to get double the amount of revenue. Osborn gets paid to create super villains and then develop ways to imprison them. Tombstone uses super villains to distract Spidey from other smaller crimes and can make use of them to pull off bigger heists in the future. Very Xanatos of the both of them. Tombstone is actually quite pragmatic and recognizes the importance of a public image I imagine that an agreement could be reached allowing for some time between villain attacks, shame Hammerhead is the one negotiating. It's funny that the attack by the Vulture is what started Norman down the path to becoming the Goblin; I like to think that Hammerhead trying to pressure Osborn is what made him decide to take down the Big Man's crime syndicate and cover his tracks by killing Octavius, which led to him becoming Dr. Octopus. Small things that start an avalanche...

Finally we also get some new character intros; Captain George Stacy makes his debut and I swear this is the first time I saw Clancy Brown play someone who wasn't evil. And of course miss Mary Jane Watson; you know, I've been waiting for her "Face it tiger, you just hit the jackpot" line to make a live-action appearance for so long. I like web-shaped heart at the end of the episode, a nice nod to the cover of the wedding issue.

Favorite Lines:
Lincoln: In my life I've been called many names, my favorite...is Tombstone.

Spider-Man: I've won all the battles and never came close to winning the war. But Tombstone did make one mistake, now I know there is a war. So bring it on.

Spider-Man: This always works in cartoons! (Rhino just steps on the bowling balls crushing them) Oh television cannot be trusted!

Peter: You...planned this?! Aunt May you're an...evil mastermind!

Matthew
Insert Inspirational Quote Here:________

MD> Maybe, but I found this in the background memo:

"23. Sunset at the clocktower and the gargoyles EXPLODE from stone. Everyone's first concern is for Angela. She's all healed. Maybe just a bit tired still. Goliath is still determined to get vengeance on the Hunters. The other gargoyles agree, including Angela. Goliath is concerned for her, but she doesn't want any kid glove treatment. She's the one that they hurt. She wants her chance for revenge too. At the moment, this is logic that makes sense to Goliath. They split up in groups of two (Broadway & Angela, Lex & Brooklyn, Hudson & Bronx) to search for the Hunters. (And yes, Goliath is conspicuously without a partner.) Goliath gives strict orders not to engage them in battle. Find them and come back to report. All the gargoyles leave. And a few seconds later, Elisa comes up the stairs to find the tower empty."

Greg Bishansky

Greg: See, I always read that scene differently.

I saw it as Angela performatively agreeing with Goliath to help make sure he feels like she (and by extension, the rest of the Clan) is on his side...so that he doesn't run off half-cocked, alone, to confront the Hunters and get himself killed.

At this point, she knows her father well enough to recognize that stubbornness is one of his primary flaws. He'll come around eventually, but Goliath's first instinct to someone questioning his decisions can often be curt or dismissive...and if caught in a volatile mood, a big temper flare-up.

See his repeated denials that they needed to find a new home before Xanatos' sentence was up, for example. Or his initial reaction to Angela's interest in her biological parentage. And there's a reason that this (his certainty that he is in the right, at least as a knee-jerk reaction), above all other qualities, was what the Eye of Odin enhanced.

Matthew: Regarding Foswell, keep in mind that "The Big Man" in SpecSpidey is a title rather than a particular person's nickname (the Season 2 gang war is essentially about fighting over it, and Gobby takes the moniker once all is said and done, though admittedly it's unclear if anyone outside his own Pumpkinheads acknowledged it).

I always figured that the endgame was for Foswell (in his Patch persona) to slowly rise through the ranks of the underworld...pretty much by virtue of no one paying attention to him. And that he'd wind up with the position when all was said and done, despite not ever actually being a "real" gangster at all.

In other words, that Comics!Foswell was where he was to end up, not where he starts (to paraphrase the Wise Man's similarly planned character development for Sable Manfredi).

Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"If there isn't one, then let's make a place for humans to live outside. Let's change the world." - Emma

BISHANSKY - I remember that response of Angela's from "Hunter's Moon", but don't recall seeing it discussed here.

I do recall Broadway crying "Angela!" in a shocked and alarmed tone, just after her "We both will" line.

Todd Jensen

Gargoyles Moment That May Never Have Been Commented On...

In Hunter's Moon Part Two, right after Angela awakens healed, Goliath promises to her that the Hunters will suffer for attacking her, he'll see to it. Angela responds with a chilling "we both will". And later seemed to be pleased when Goliath reports that two of the Hunters have paid for the attack... of course things go boom right after that, and the next time Angela really speaks, she's urging Goliath to let it go.

So, Angela has a rarely seen vengeful streak in her. Have we ever discussed this? What do you all think?

Greg Bishansky
"YOU BASTARD!" - Angela, Bash

Always good to see some of the old guard still lurking and occasionally posting.!

Hi, Matt!

Greg Bishansky

Thanks Todd, John DiMaggio really got to show off his chops this episode as both Sandman and Hammerhead. And his "Aw man, my money!" never fails to crack me up.
The fact that he's constantly after a big score is kinda hilarious considering his role on Futurama as Bender the klepto robot. Not to mention there's the film "Bender's Big Score."

And we'll get to Octavius soon enough, don't you worry.

Matthew
Insert Inspirational Quote Here:________

Thanks for stopping by, Matt. It was good hearing from you again. (And I never noticed that detail about Owen. Thanks for sharing it with us.)
Todd Jensen

Coming out of lurk mode to say hi. A bit regretful that I missed all the great Gargoyles discussions from a few weeks ago. Good stuff everyone. I also made my way through the entire series on Disney+ and read the comics. Some of the episodes I had not seen in a decade. Great to see. And I'm still noticing things I never noticed before. Like in Hunter's Moon (which is just so awesome, btw!), when John Carter is interviewing Xanatos, I noticed that Owen was careful to keep his stone fist in his pocket. That's so cool!

Anyway, I'm here, lurking, but I've been around for 20 years. No sense in leaving now.

*Sets some fresh cookies on the table, dusts off the "Do Not Feed the Trolls" sign, and strolls back into the shadows*

Matt

Todd Jensen> https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/All_Lucky_7s

The reference. The Remake of that game was just delayed to April.

Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

MATTHEW - Thanks for the latest review.

The parts that most stood out in my memories about this episode:

1. After it initially appears that they merely reduced Marko to sand, Otto is staring at the remains in horror, saying "What have we done? What do we do?", to which Norman Osborn replies "We sweep up and try again." I thought it gave a great sense of their characterizations. (While I'm not a Spiderman expert, I had picked up enough about him to know that Otto is the future Doc Octopus, and in those early episodes, what I wondered most about him was not "How does he become Doc Octopus physically?" but "How does this timid little fellow with a bit of a conscience - not enough to keep him out of those schemes, but enough to make him uncomfortable about them - turn into a scheming super-villain?" And we got a satisfying answer - though that's a few episodes away.)

2. Marko's "Doh!" moment upon realizing he forgot to take the money. (And, yep, I picked up his "Revenge is a sucker's game" tone.)

Todd Jensen

Watched "Competition" today, you know there's one thing that Greg is probably at than most show runners, and that's how to escalate. Not just across the series but through the episode as well.

Take for example when Peter decides to try out with Harry for football the first time he fumbles a pass, the next he's completing passes and going all spider on the tacklers. Similarly, we see Harry starting to change as he goes from his normal self asking Peter to try out with him. To being petty and bitter for Peter being better at him during tryouts and trying to buy his way into the popular crowd.

Speaking of incremental changes, we get see the makings of Peter's tangled relationships as both Liz wishes him good luck and Gwen drops her not-so-subtle hints throughout the episode. Oh, we also get to see our first look into Glory Grant and Kenny's tumultuous relationship. Considering Randy and Sally's own problems, it makes you wonder how these couples ended up together.

Speaking of first time seeing things for the first time, Otto's arms make their first appearance. You know I can't believe it took until the PS4 Spider-Man game to truly explore how groundbreaking an invention like fully functional, artificial appendages would be. You'd think Osborne would be all over that but I guess he's more interested in playing mad scientist. We also get another horrific science transformation and I think it tops even Dr. Connors' transformation. Seriously, not enough that pieces of him start flying off, then he swells to an unbelievable size before exploding into sand. Yikes.

Going back to to escalation, one thing I liked about the fights with Sandman is that it allows for room to grow. The first time he limits his shapeshifting to mostly enlarging and extending his limbs and occasionally forming them into weapons. Leaves room for him to go to crazier lengths in the future. It also makes sense that he would be Greg's "revenge is for suckers" theme this series being more interested in money much like his comic book counterpart.

One final thing, I don't know much about football so I decided to a bit more research and found out that Tight Ends do blocking as well as receiving. Doesn't really make sense that smaller, thinner guys like Peter and Harry would be considered for this position. Would've worked better if they trying out for Wide Receiver since those guys rely on speed rather than size. Oh well.
Favorite Line:

Spider-Man: All right Sandman, show me what you got. Or better yet, I'll show you!
(smacks Sandman with an I-beam only for Sandman to reform and smack him)
Sandman: Wow. You sure showed me.

Matthew
Insert Inspirational Quote Here:________

BRAINIAC - What is this Remake?
Todd Jensen

All Lucky Sevens!

(I'm fine with the delay of Remake, really)

Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

Sixth!
Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

I know why Greg changed Foswell and the Big Man. You have to remember that he was limited to using characters only associated with Spider-Man so characters like Ben Urich and the Kingpin, both characters heavily associated with Daredevil, couldn't be used. So their characteristics were used with other characters. In this case the journalist who investigates organized crime went to Foswell and the philanthropist, businessman who secretly controls all crime in New York went to Tombstone.
Matthew
Insert Inspirational Quote Here:________

Montana giving the moral is certainly interesting, though of course it's hypocritical. A villain who claims to have honor and respect obligations while breaking the law is of course ignoring his obligations to society at large. He might claim that the social contract isn't something he agreed to or that faceless organizations don't demand loyalty, which I might agree with if he were fighting for some larger goal. But he's murdering people for profit, which no healthy society can allow. I remember on Spectacular Radio, Greg Bishansky compared Montana to Mike Ehrmantraut from Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul, which is a solid analogy. Mike gives a very similar speech in BCS about how, no matter what side of the law you're on, you have to keep your word. But he's giving this speech to a man who's stealing from his own company, thereby breaking a contract he signed with it, and he doesn't seem to see that as a contradiction. None of this is a complaint- the self-serving, selective nature of a villain's moral code is what makes them a villain.

The other flashpoint in this episode is merging Montana and the Shocker into one character. Personally, I think it's a good move. However, I get why some people prefer the idea of Herman Schulz as a blue-collar crook who cobbled together his own power set, rather than having a mob boss give it to him. There's a question about how much you can change a character before they're a new character, something that will come up again when we get to Fred Foswell and the Big Man.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

MATTHEW - Thanks for your review. I recall, when this first episode aired, a few remarks about the unorthodoxy of having the villain point out the moral (the "honoring your responsibilities" quote you mentioned at the end) - a moral that Peter certainly learned from. ("Young Justice" did something similar in the scene where Black Manta was congratulating his son for refusing to take credit for a victory he knew he hadn't achieved.)
Todd Jensen

Johnny 5 is alive!
Algae
"Of course, we all wear costumes." ~Double Trouble

So I watched "Market Forces" the other week. You know I think there's a rule about the Shocker, no matter what the medium whether it's print, television, movies or video games you just have to make fun of his outfit and name.

We get a bit of a switch after the ESU arc as now most of Pete's activities outside of school are at the Daily Bugle. Like the first episode it throws a lot of new elements in but still doesn't feel overcrowded. Gotta love Peter's description of Jameson as a walking embolism, I should use that descriptor more often. We also get our first reference to Mary Jane and her "wonderful personality." Oh Pete, you have no idea ;)

The episode did a great job with the fights, it's easy to forget that in the comics Shocker has one of the better track records when it comes to tangling with the web-head. And he's an absolute terror when it comes to long-range fighting. I do like that Spidey didn't flat out beat him in fight (save that future episodes) but by turning his tech against him and by playing off his distinct weakness, his pride. We see in future episodes that Montana holds himself in high regard as leader of the Enforcers and thinks that puts him above the average street thug and the "constumed freaks." But as we see he isn't much better than Marko and O'Hirn and he's got a goofy name and costume. Skilled as he is, it's still disproportionate to his ego.

We get to see Harry starting to go down a dark path this episode, especially after Peter accidentally blew him off and his dad telling him to quit whining and cowboy up. Considering that look of confidence he has after that and what goes on next episode, makes me wonder how long Harry's known about globulin green.

And finally, we get our first real look into how terrible a person Norman is. It's not bad enough that he engages in scumbag business tactics and denigrate his son. He also collaborates with gangsters to sabotage the competition, and not just in minor manners but in the case of "super mercenaries" at that. I like how they came up with a justification for "villains" of the week and the market forces that involve them.

Favorite quote of the episode:
Shocker: Ah, ain't nothin' personal hoss. Simple truth is, if a man's a man, he honors his responsibilities, and you're one of mine.

Matthew
Insert Inspirational Quote Here:________

Hi Mr. Weisman. I have a question for you:

I don't know if you are aware, but in the "Early Warning" episode of Whelmed: The Young Justice Files (back in Oct. 2019) the host quoted you on something you told him in conversation. This is something that used to happen now and then, but lately it happens in almost every episode: "Greg texted me this", "Brandon emailed me that", "Greg/Brandon told me whatever", etc.

So, looking at your 2-year-3-month-and-26-day backlog of 1208 questions, I'm wondering: why are you giving BTS information to this one person while the rest of your fanbase has to submit questions and wait months (at least) or YEARS (worst case and more likely scenario) for an answer???? It must be really cool to be so intimate and chummy with one's idol, and I bet the host feels super important and validated, but this is some double standard bullshit!

Are you aware of this? And if you are, how can you be okay with it? Don't you think this is unfair? You have thousands of fans who support your work whichever way they can, but 99.9% of them have never even met you in person, let alone exchanged emails or text messages with you.

If I make an entire podcast dedicated to kissing your asses, will I earn the same privileges? Will I be able to ask all my questions without a waiting queue? Will I get to hang out with you, have lunch together or exchange personal contacts?

(Originally I posted this on AskGreg, but then I decided I shouldn't have to wait 2 years for an answer, for all the reasons above.)

Jordan

Sorry, that last was me. I changed my name as a joke last week and forgot to change it back. So, dos again!
Jurgan

Dos!
Johnny Modlin

(#1) Number 0ne with a bullet but always first over all!
Vinnie - [thomaspeano at yahoo dot com]
Deplorable and loving it!