A Station Eight Fan Web Site


The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending December 20, 2020

Index : Hide Images

"there is a sub-niche of fanfiction for stories about real-life celebrities"

Yeah, it's beyond creepy.

Greg Bishansky

One bit of shared casting between Gargoyles and Aladdin, is Michael Dorn as Bristbane in Animal Kingdom which wasn't all that different from The New Olympians.

Spen> I made that comment with that fact in mind, but hey it is probably semantics.


Antiyonder and Todd: Backing up the conversation two weeks, there is a sub-niche of fanfiction for stories about real-life celebrities. So if the story in question used Bronx by name (which assuming the writer used the same title as the TGC episode, seems to be a given), then it would count as a form of celebrity fanfic.

So I've gotten a little swamped with other projects and I want to give my Young Justice reviews the attention they deserve, so "Denial" is probably going to come out next week.
Remember, young or old, rich or poor, friend or foe. We're all in this together.

Jenson and anyone else who might give a damn:-)> Made it to the September discussions from last year and:https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/comment/archive/index.php?archive_date=2019-09-29

Yep I recognized the clip when I saw QP's premiere and even decided to do an article for it: https://gargwiki.net/Quack_Pack

Figured it wouldn't be anymore out of place than an article for Bambi (which for the reference I don't object to). Plus a lot a cast/crew connection with Gargoyles to use. So yep, QP and W.I.T.C.H. both had an earlier debut in-universe.

Not going to be a regular thing and these I considered way back by the end of the 2000s:

- https://gargwiki.net/Buzz_Lightyear_of_Star_Command
- https://gargwiki.net/Kim_Possible

Second one while I'm a fan of Toy Story and BLoSC is probably my favorite Disney toon of the 2000s (like American Dragon, for, just that I felt it's first season was just okay where KP made a better impression in it's 1st Season).

Really don't plan for more of these articles. Possibly Aladdin especially since it has several notable references shared cast/crew and of course TGC appearance by Princess Detective Jasmine Maza.

Have toyed with Bonkers given the character's partnership with Miranda I believe being one of the inspirations for Goliath/Elisa and of course banana cream pie, but I don't know. Consider it's production would it be a sore spot to Weisman?

But yeah other than that further edits are entirely Gargoyles centric. Besides fixing redirects, I've been looking to implement more Ask Greg links (especially for info not yet wikied) and incorporating more timeline info where due like:

- Wolf's idea to commit crimes because of the CoS terrorist, Thailog viewing the Stone By Night Spell and Tom's visit to Wyvern Hill in 95 (alerting Hakon and The Captain to Goliath still being alive).


Finally checked out another radio play, that being The Cosmos (even added some bits to the Phoenix entity and Cyborg article).

So I wonder if we could expect to see the much younger but still older Brooklyn popping up briefly in the present for any need to help out the clan or gain info he'd need to pass on in a paradox. Like that bit with Katana asking if that's the same Angela who broke his heart.

Also that joke with Brooklyn trying to sidestep that comment with the translation being off. Was that a reference to the suggest that Goliath and clan could understand other languages cause of magic (i.e. like from the Grimorum or Avalon)?



Been looking through comments from various years I didn't visit and I like Matt's mention of the clan basically protecting the Castle (and by extension the Xanatos family) for free.

And I thought about TSSM where Spider-Man saves Tombstone from the Green Goblin only for the Big Man to mention that he offered to pay Spidey for his services and got it for free.


Yeah it's funny how Eiling has made such a big impact that he's appeared in multiple DC adaptations (including a memorable performance by Clancy Brown on CW's The Flash) and yet his counterpart Captain Atom remains a pretty obscure character even within DC's various shows.

After reading these issues I do wonder why Eiling was never inducted into the Light. Maybe something for the future?

Remember, young or old, rich or poor, friend or foe. We're all in this together

Yep I actually read a good handful of Weisman and Bates Captain Atom myself, plus that JLA Showcase story with those gargoyles.

So yep not surprised of Eiling being the villain.


MATTHEW - Thanks for the latest review.

The part of that story that most stood out to me was the scene at the end where General Eiling reveals his true part in the business. It felt like one of Xanatos's "what my real plan was" speeches at the end of the episode. Greg once mentioned that his work on Eiling was an influence on Xanatos, and in light of that scene, I can definitely believe it.

Todd Jensen

Well even with things a little slow and a little off this week I figured I'd take a shot with the reviews nonetheless. Covering issues 9 and 10 today, "Cold Case" and "Hot Case." These issues tie heavily into the character of Captain Atom, now for those of you who don't know this is a pretty important character in Greg's career as he worked to revamp the character after "Crisis on Infinite Earths."

The issues in many ways mimic his work back those comics, even digging up the obscure character Rako (thankfully they ditched his old alias of The Cambodian). In keeping with the general theme of the series there's a strong element of mystery in these issues as the team investigates the conspirators. I like that they expanded upon the backstory of Captain Atom, instead of just the "framed for a crime he didn't commit" with vague mentions of treason, it's spelled out that he uncovered a weapons smuggling and assassination attempts and was framed for it.

One thing I also liked was how Captain Atom's lecture was ultimately utilized by the team throughout the story. Waiting to go on the offensive only at the end, use of concealment and the extensive research. One that allowed them to uncover the plot and prove Captain Atom's innocence, with one major exception. In espionage, who isn't in the picture is just as important as who isn't.

If you know much about DC or its tv shows then the reveal that Eiling was a villain won't shock you. I'll go into more about the not-so-good general in "Failsafe" but for the time being I'd like to just talk about how vile the guy is. Frames a fellow soldier, marries his widow, raises his children and then has the gall to try and act like his friend. He's like an inverse cuckoo, one that replaces the parent instead of the child.

Some Final Thoughts: the opening scene is kinda funny how everyone is just bored out of their minds during the lecture. And that includes dutiful student Aqualad and budding detective Robin, maybe the good Captain isn't a very engaging teacher. One thing I noticed was that when M'Gann impersonated a JAG officer, her disguise mimicked Dr. Roquette, I guess the time she impersonated her was still in her mind.

DC Profiles: Nathaniel Adams aka Captain Atom was a Vietnam veteran who was framed for a crime he didn't commit, with the alternate choice being execution he volunteered for a risky experiment. The end result bonded an alien metal to him and shot him into the future. As Captain Atom he has the ability to absorb and channel all known forms of energy, the downside being that if he absorbs too much energy he could be shot further in time once more.

Favorite Lines:
Peggy: Our mother never thought he was guilty! And I don't believe it either!
Randy: I love you sis, but your opinion doesn't count. Dad died in prison before you were born.
Peggy: Hah! You just called him "Dad."

Remember, young or old, rich or poor, friend or foe. We're all in this together

I mean the room and wiki were out for most of the day, so I guess this might be related to the malfunction.

Oh this is weird...

Remember, young or old, rich or poor, friend or foe. We're all in this together.


I think we skipped a reset d:

"The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Thanks Todd, you know there's probably a reason Roy went by Speedy back in the Golden Age, but I can't think of it.

One thing I forgot to mention is Aqualad's comment at the Team not having a quota on archers, that feels like a bit of a dig at the Justice League episode "The Greatest Story Never Told" where Green Lantern insists that Elongated Man hang back and do crowd control because Plastic Man is already fighting the threat of the week and "They don't need two stretchy guys."

Young Justice seems to recognize that that kind of speciation is just petty and that anyone able and willing to help is fully welcome. But we'll cover that in more depth in Season 2.

Remember, young or old, rich or poor, friend or foe. We're all in this together.

Thanks for the latest review, Matthew.

I mentioned the "Alice in Wonderland"-themed chapter titles in the last comic story you reviewed; they take on new meaning after your mention of Cheshire and her link to Artemis. (I'd all but forgotten Cheshire; as I said, "Young Justice" hasn't lingered as much in my memory as "Gargoyles" has.)

That switch from "Speedy" to "Red Arrow" certainly made sense to me; as one of the crowd pointed out at the beginning of the series, "Speedy" seemed a more appropriate name for Kid Flash.

Todd Jensen

Masterdramon> So that wasn't Josh? Hmm, I'm usually pretty good at identifying actor's voices but this surprises me.
I actually pulled up "Insecurity" to listen to Josh's grunts and how they compared to the ones used in "Infiltrator" and the two are remarkably similar. But if Greg said they used an actor from the episode already, well if I had to make an educated guess (or even an uneducated one) I'd say the closest soundalike would probably be Jason Spisak.

Incidentally, I saw that "Age of Gargoyles" has its own TV Tropes page, which I'm taking as a sign I should really read it by now.

Remember, young or old, rich or poor, friend or foe. We're all in this together.

Matthew: The Wise Man specifically states here that Black Spider wasn't Josh in his debut ep:


At best, one could argue that perhaps they were already planning to cast Josh whenever Eric actually got some voiced lines, and so used a rough soundalike for his "grunter"...but frankly I'm more likely to chalk it up to power of suggestion. We hear a young webslinger making impact grunts and our minds gravitate to Josh in a Pavlovian sense.

I do like your analysis of why Artemis' past and personality make it harder for her to "gel" with the rest of the Team right off the bat, compared to the rest of the original eight in their debuts.

Now, switching gears entirely...for anyone who enjoys the "Age of Gargoyles" fanfic universe, you may enjoy some of the new art commissioned by UK artist Kordyne in recent weeks:

For Chip, his Ishimuran OC Hana: https://www.deviantart.com/kordyne/art/Hana-860810495

For Algae-X, his London OCs Cor and Ty on a romantic glide: https://www.deviantart.com/kordyne/art/Cor-and-Ty-861477046

And for me, my OC from a long-dead Persian Clan, Simurgh: https://www.deviantart.com/kordyne/art/Simurgh-863322534

(I know I'm totally biased, but she's probably my favorite piece I've seen Kordyne develop so far.)

Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"Once you taste poison, you might as well finish the meal. If it comes to that you would make as fine a dish as any." - Holo the Wise Wolf

The main cast is complete (for now), watched "Infiltrator" today which brings Artemis into the show. It also brings back Speedy, now Red Arrow, into the narrative and shows what he's been up to lately. While I do like that he's been very proactive when it comes to heroism, rescuing Dr. Roquette before even the League is shown acting and delivering her to safety, the follow through could use some work. Like the idea that even though he chose to strike out on his own the notion that his mentor would have a new sidekick would incense him enough that he'd dump the job of protecting her onto the "Junior Justice League" and leave in a huff. Though, from what we'll learn later there's probably a reason for him just leaving like this.

The introduction of Artemis is one built on conflict, especially with the rest of the Team. We see right away how she doesn't exactly gel with the others, making things awkward with her open attraction to Superboy, which puts her at odds with M'Gann, "taking" Red Arrow's place both as Green Arrow's protégé and his place on the Team, and that's not even getting into her less than stellar meeting with Kid Flash. We saw parts of her tough-as-nails attitude in the comic but they get much more fleshed out here and explains why she starts rubbing everyone the wrong way at first. Living in Gotham isn't for the meek and surviving requires some callouses on your fingers and plenty of grit, naturally she wouldn't mesh well with the Team which has gotten used to each other's presence settled into roles on that team.

The introduction of Cheshire brings another recurring villain to focus and shows the theme of the bad guys getting smarter, there's a lot of calculation to her and her approach. Setting a trap to kill Kid Flash, weakening Aqualad before engaging in hand-to-hand and faking out Artemis. More importantly she recognizes her own limitations and knows the value of a tactical retreat and when to return with backup. She, alongside Kobra, mark the first villains that the Team can't properly defeat. Cheshire manages to beat most of the heroes she faces this episode and purposefully avoids the ones she can't.

The action this episode in some ways feels like a progression to the one from issues 3 and 4, especially considering that story was all about the Trio trying and failing to protect their charge from the Shadows. It's not by coincidence that the Team faces off against Black Spider and Hook once more, we get to see how the heroes have gotten better since their initial outing against them. I like that after being ambushed the first time, Aqualad has the sense to lull the assassins into a false sense of security, using himself and Miss Martian as bait. The fact that Robin and Superboy are missing for most of the action is a big factor too, Robin is most likely wise to the Shadow's tricks and none of the assassins possess the skills or weapons that could take out Superboy. Splitting the Team helps raise the stakes. While circumstance forced them to separate, I can't help but wonder how things would've gone if the two groups were shaken up a bit.

Finally there's the big mysteries set up in the end: 1. Artemis knows who Cheshire is behind the mask. 2. Red Arrow knows that Artemis isn't Green Arrow's niece. And 3. The Light has an operative on the inside. This is where the infiltrator message really stands out and the audience's suspicions are raised. As I mentioned last post, the mystery of Artemis generally relies on viewers not reading the tie-in comics and not being familiar with an obscure character. We'll see what comes next soon enough...

Some Final Thoughts: So I like that the show delves into the broader world of the DC Universe, last episode it's mentioned that S.T.A.R. has locations in Boston, Manhattan and now formerly in Philadelphia. I like that unlike in the CWverse there are multiple locations. It's easy to miss, but you can hear Josh Keaton's voice in Black Spider's grunts, funny to have a high-profile voice actor doing ADR before the character starts speaking on the show. I have to question Dr. Roquette's dissonance when referring to the Fog as "brilliant science" after it's been revealed it can eat through steel, concrete, flesh and bone. Yes an atomic bomb is brilliant science but very few people look at a mushroom cloud and their mind immediately goes to the details of nuclear fission. I also really like the concept of the Fog, the fact that its true purpose is data theft and the sheer destruction and death it can leave in its wake is just a cover for the theft is pretty ingenious.

Acting MVP goes to both Stephanie Lemelin for her intro as Artemis, it was a good casting choice. Her more husky voice contrasts well with Danica McKellar's more sweet tone. Also have to give the MVP to Kelly Hu as Cheshire. She's no stranger to playing martial roles (heck this is a character she could've easily played in live-action) it's nice to know that this (as well as her small but memorable role in Under the Red Hood) got her a lot more work in DC related properties.

DC Profiles: We'll learn a lot more about Cheshire as she returns but it's clear that this incarnation is nowhere near as bad as her comic counterpart, who would've killed Roquette out of spite or amusement. Heck the character even detonated a nuke in Qurac, that should tell you how bad she is. Fun fact, her cat-themed mask originated from the Teen Titans animated series where she cameoed. Professor Ojo is another obscure member of the League of Assassins, I like that his outfit was updated as well and given a sleeker look. Another fun fact, that mask he wears allows him to see as he was born without eyes.

Favorite Lines:
Dr. Roquette: Tell me you're the advance guy.
Red Arrow: The only guy.
Dr. Roquette: You couldn't bring backup? What? Were there budget cuts?

Robin: But first, a moment of silence for our absent comrade.
M'Gann: Poor Wally.

Wally: Uh, who's this?
Artemis: Artemis, you're new teammate.
Wally: Kid Flash. Never heard of you.

Robin: You might want to cut her some slack. It was her arrow that saved your butt against Amazo.
Kid Flash: What? No, that was Speedy's- I mean Red Arrow's...arrow right?
Robin: Not so much.
Kid Flash: Well, I'm still not giving her the satisfaction.
Artemis: You know I can still hear you.
Kid Flash: Augh!
Dr. Roquette: I couldn't get the Justice League.

Kid Flash: Besides, I can't get mad at you. [thinking] You gave me mouth to mouth.
All: We heard that.
Kid Flash: Dang it!

Aqualad: Stop it, both of you.
Kid Flash and Artemis: What?
Aqualad: I can hear you glaring.

Robin: Yes! The infiltrators have been outfiltrated!

Cheshire: So like the Cheshire Cat, I'll just disappear.

Aqualad: Welcome to the team.

Remember, young or old, rich or poor, friend or foe. We're all in this together.

Coming out next year in Summer is hopefully the first of many Volume, "The Disney Afternoon Adventures" which yes is a reprint of the Disney Adventures comics.

First are adaptations of the Darkwing Duck episode "Just Us Justice Duck" and "A Goofy Movie"

Second is something that's been in demand for a long time "Legend of the Chaos God" which actually did get a reference in the DT episode "Let's Get Dangerous".

It was basically the swan song for the Disney Afternoon comics with each part taking place in the following titles:

- Tale Spin
- Chip N Dale Rescue Rangers (Yes they replace the humans with anthropomorphic animals)
- Goof Troops
- DuckTales
- Darkwing Duck

1. Yep it's thing I like with Kingdom and The Gathering Part One with the remainder of the clan taking care of Cagney. Especially since they are our superiors and deserve only the best:-).

"Even when stopping a mugging the thieves can't think of her as anything but another masked thief. I'd say stuff like that only increases her drive to prove that she's more than her family life."

2. Kind of fits with Elisa's comment by the end of "Protection" where the corrupt are willing to believe to to be just as so.


MATTHEW - Then the production team *did* have the Winged Monkeys in mind when they came up with the MONQIs (assuming that those were a creation of "Young Justice" rather than a pre-existing feature in DC Comics).
Todd Jensen

Todd> Funny enough, Artemis actually makes reference to Oz when she's fighting the MONQIs
Remember, young or old, rich or poor, friend or foe. We're all in this together.

MATTHEW - Thanks for the latest review.

I barely remember that story, but the titles stood out to me. They're obvious "Alice in Wonderland" references. If I'm correct, this story was connected to the episode with the robot monkeys, who clearly had some influence from the flying monkeys in "The Wizard of Oz". Which seems appropriate, given the parallel of those two stories, though I don't know if it was intentional.

Todd Jensen

Thanks for the feedback and of course that picture of Bronx grabs you Todd, it's basic animal empathy. Nothing grabs a viewer's sympathy like seeing an animal looking sad and pathetic, all we'd need is have Sarah McLachlan singing in the background and we could raise money for charity.

Anyway, covering issues 7 and 8 today "Rabbit Holes" and "Wonderland" of Young Justice which covers Artemis' introduction before the show. The issues mostly lay out her life, her immediate attraction to Superboy, her desire for something to change and to be more than her family legacy. This insight does kinda ruin some of the mystery that will build up throughout the rest of the season, starting with the next episode.

One thing the comics don't spoil is the identity of her father, whose face is constantly hidden. Heck even the wedding photo is cropped so as to not show his face. But one thing is made pretty clear here, and that's how troubled her home life is. When her mother laid out the ultimatum of her father giving up the life or giving up the family, it doesn't take long for him to decide to up and leave. I guess her mother's words just as much as her father's were the thing to finally push her into the path of heroism, and it looks like she had been prepping for something like this for some time.

There's some interesting looks into her debut into superheroing and the perception that goes along with it. Even when stopping a mugging the thieves can't think of her as anything but another masked thief. I'd say stuff like that only increases her drive to prove that she's more than her family life.

Some Final Thoughts: One thing the issues do pretty well is also recreate the action in "Schooled" as well as provide an outside look to what happened. Builds up some of the world beyond what the heroes were doing and solves some of the mystery from the last episode. So Artemis also has a Richard Dragon poster in her room, something she and Wally actually share in common. I just realized that this plot wouldn't work so well with a more famous character, Artemis and her family's obscurity works in favor of the mystery that's to unfold.

Favorite Lines:
Artemis: My name is Artemis, and this is my life...what's left of it.

Batman: The Justice League has formed a covert team of young heroes...as I believe you already know.
Artemis: [thinking] Oh God, he knows. I'm so busted.
Batman: We'd like you to join the team.
Artemis: If you expect an apology for saving Kid Flash's-Wait. What?

Miss Martian: Kid Flash should be here any minute...There he is now! I'm sure you two will get along famously.

Remember, young or old, rich or poor, friend or foe. We're all in this together.

“Oh I chose a bad day to pack those special brownies!”

Good choice of words:-).

Incidentally I've considered for a long time trying for either an article or section (on the episode pages if not compiled)on the wiki for a Previously on Gargoyles. Still think on that. Probably also need to do another marathon:-).


MATTHEW - Thanks for the "Leader of the Pack" review. I just finished reading it, and liked it.

I don't have much in the way of specifics to say about it, though that picture of an unhappy-looking Bronx on board the sinking oil tanker somehow grabs me.

Todd Jensen

And "Spectacular Radio" finished it's double-sized finale interview with Greg Weisman and Victor Cook. At present, the release schedule is as follows:

December 7th: "Subtext" interview with Greg Weisman and Nicole Dubuc (Episode Writer).
December 14th: "Subtext" Fan Panel.

Holiday Break

January 4th: "Opening Night" interview with Greg Weisman and Jennifer L. Anderson (Talent Coordinator)
January 11th: "Opening Night" Fan Panel
January 18th: "Final Curtain" interview with Greg Weisman and Vic Cook.

The final fan panel has yet to be recorded.

You can find it all here: https://spidey-dude.com/category/podcasts/spectacular-radio-podcast/

With Spectacular Radio coming to a close, I'm going to be announcing a new podcast in the not too distant future.

Greg Bishansky

Instead of pleading the 5th, I'll post the latest review and analysis from my blog. Here's Leader of the Pack.


Remember, young or old, rich or poor, friend or foe. We're all in this together.


My mistake then.:-(

To finish my TGC, prior to some show articles I did yesterday, I made the article for Gang Leader (and his voice actor Rino Romano) from And Justice For All.

So one offense not discussed to my knowledge between in and Generations' Assassin? The ones behind those episodes didn't seem to get the importance in names. As Hudson puts it, nothing is real until we name them, and things need names.

After all, can't list the arson and murder without some jaywalking.



Is it "fanfic" if it's written about gargoyles by people living in the Gargoyles Universe? I would have thought it's only fanfic if it's about fictional coyprighted creations (which the gargoyles aren't in that universe). Writing stories about gargoyle beasts in that world would be no more fanfic than writing about dogs (regular dogs, not specific fictional ones) in the real world.

Todd Jensen

Creativity demon regarding a Number 2 of sorts.

But sometime in the future of the Gargoyles Universe some people will do fanfics regarding gargoyles. Some decent, some not.

An example of the latter is a gargoyle beast getting stuck on a train going out of country and needing the help of an Amish boy to get back home. While the writer keeps it online he/she inserts a light warning due to many readers mentioning how they spit out whatever they were drinking upon reading it.


Number 1.
Demona May - [realdemona at yahoo dot com]
Real Living Insane Gargoyle....