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The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending December 27, 2020

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So are you covering the video game in time as well?

That is true, but one thing I liked about this series is that it avoids some of the pitfalls from the DCAU.
Remember, young or old, rich or poor, friend or foe. We're all in this together

"The Matt Hagen one is probably the most famous because that was the Clayface identity used in Batman: The Animated Series."

And of course it's not the last time YJ will have callbacks to the DCAU, especially to the point of a role reprisal by a VA.


Thanks for the latest review, Matthew.

I'd forgotten that comics story (except maybe Kent Nelson's funeral, which you mentioned), so I'm afraid I can't say anything more, but it was a good review, as always.

Todd Jensen

Covering some more Young Justice issues today, "The Pit..." "The Pendulum" "...And the Penalty." Here's where we find out what Batman and Robin were doing while the rest of the Team was investigating the Tower of Fate. These issues also help demonstrate the working relationship the Dynamic Duo have and their assigned roles, Batman taking point on missions while Robin runs interference, Batman draws the central attention of the villains while Robin distracts or sabotages. In a way, it's a bit like the relationship between the League and the Team in miniature, the more famous hero is up front with the most attention while the younger hero handles the covert stuff.

We get to see a bit more of the inner workings of the League of Shadows as well, despite it being a clandestine group of assassins Ra's has created a cult of personality built around himself so that even when killed you can bet that there's someone who'll make sure he's resurrected. That even applies after Hagen was warped into Clayface which suggests that there's a lot of mental conditioning done to any initiate, which only drives the cult analogy even further.

The other big thing this issue is Kaldur's attraction to Tula getting to the point where he can't keep his head in the game anymore. This has been showing up a few times during the comics though not so much in the episodes. It's easy to forget with Aqualad's professional attitude that he's still a teenager and while stoic there are still emotions deep inside. And those emotions finally reach a breaking point here. But we'll see what comes of it next episode, and with Artemis' case what comes of that...

Some Final Thoughts: I like that at Kent Nelson's funeral Red Tornado was giving a eulogy considering they were both members of the Justice Society of America, I also like the look Wally gives when Tornado mentions Kent reuniting with Inza. The guilt on his face is palpable. The gun used by Talia at Cape Canaveral, a FN Herstal FNP-9 is a real world gun, nice bit of detail. These issues also address why Artemis wasn't present with the Team during the mission to track Clayface, because she was being "arrested" to get close to Icicle Jr. I find it rather appropriate that it was Batman and Green Arrow were the ones to approach her on this considering they're the only ones who may know about her hidden life. And I find it rather in-character for her and just a little ironic that she snaps at Green Arrow and declares that she's never doing something like that again.

DC Profiles: Clayface is another legacy character, one that's been used by several different people. The Matt Hagen one is probably the most famous because that was the Clayface identity used in Batman: The Animated Series. I find it kinda funny that he's initially stated to be a poor Shadow (which might be because of his cancer) and after being transformed into Clayface he's suddenly performing much better. His powers allow him to take on multiple foes at once and his shapeshifting managing to fool all the members of the Team. I rather like that he pulled off a "spot the imposter" trick on Robin.

Talia Al Ghul is one of the many children fathered by Ra's Al Ghul. She's notable for being one of the few women Batman has ever loved, the other being Catwoman. The comic does show the attraction between the two but also highlights one of the reasons their relationship really doesn't work. While her love for Batman is genuine her love and need to support her father and his ecoterrorism is just as genuine. The two of them are too set in their own ways to compromise. Her relationship with Hagen is a bit ambiguous, whether he was just using her for the Lazarus Pit or whether there was some attraction...well it's all moot. And the comic demonstrates that despite her want to be desired beyond her name, she will live up to her title as "Daughter of the Demon." And you know what they say about Hell's fury and a woman scorned.

Favorite Lines:
Ra's: Such contempt. And yet I've always admired you...believed you are the only man worthy of my legacy. Why are our encounters always so...adversarial?
Batman: Something to do with your disdain for human life.

Batman: This time...I'm not the one you underestimated.
Robin: Gotcher nose...cone lens!

Icicle: Kid, you look familiar.
Artemis: Yeah, you too...
Icicle: Artemis?!
Artemis: Cameron!!
Icicle: Wow, babe, you've, uh...really...
Artemis: Don't be gross Cam.

Remember, young or old, rich or poor, friend or foe. We're all in this together.

It's been CiT since 2007, at least.
Greg Bishansky

Merry Christmas to all those celebrating :-)

POTUS: Looks like Clinton's already a CIT article on GargWiki, so maybe its a non-issue. I'm also not opposed to an all-purpose Presidents page listed all those so far mentioned in the series (Clinton, the Roosevelts, the Johnsons, etc).

"The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Merry Christmas to all!
Remember, young or old, rich or poor, friend or foe. We're all in this together.

Merry Christmas to you and anyone else.

Merry Christmas, everyone.
Todd Jensen

Masterdramon and anyone else> Well I won't be doing anything on that front, but maybe an all purpose President of the United States article down the line with any noted Presidents merged into the article.

Anyway, looking to update the World Tour article again to include in short details why Goliath and company were sent to each location.

But I'm not sure if I understand the comic story in that regard. Goliath assumes it was to bring Coldstone back home, but failed to do so at the time or maybe not.

There is that comment by Shari disputing Goliath's failure (as she put it, seeds were sown that night which had yet to bear fruit). So was I wonder if when Greg planned the tale (minus the then present day segments) for Coldstone to rejoin the clan or if it's tied to the Shangri-la/Shambahla event yet to be seen.


Thanks Todd, while that is her origin in the comics, not sure if it's the same in this series.
Remember, young or old, rich or poor, friend or foe. We're all in this together.

MATTHEW - Thanks for your latest review.

The part I most remembered from this episode was Kent Nelson exposing the phony seer by pointing out, among other things, that his late wife would never have made such cliched remarks.

So this Madame Xanadu (whom I'd forgotten, I'm afraid) is really Nimue from Arthurian legend? Thanks for sharing that bit with us.

Todd Jensen

Watched "Denial" today and the first Wally-centered episode and the first time we delve into the nature of magic in the series. Before we get into that though, I'd like to discuss the thematic nature of the Rogue's Gallery and how that affects how heroes deal with crime and other issues. The heroes in the DC generally follow a theme with their recurring enemies: Batman handles the mentally disturbed, Wonder Woman other beings usually relating to the Greek pantheon, Aquaman and aquatic threats, as for the Flash, he generally has enemies relating to super science. Whether it's the Rogues who commit crimes with high-powered gadgets or the evil speedsters whose powers mimic his own. And for the most part the heroes generally tackle these same threats with little variation, unless of course there's a crossover. But this series often takes characters out of their comfort zone which brings us to the nature of magic.

Magic is generally accepted in the DC universe but it's not something that really widespread and that's probably the big reason for Wally's skepticism. I mean of the Justice League only Zatara, Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel are associated with magic and Zatara is the only out and out sorcerer, you can make the argument toward Atlanteans but there's a good chance that the intricacies of their culture isn't well known in the rest of the world. And considering the Flash's encounters with Abra Kadabra there's a good reason for Wally's strong belief in Clarke's Third Law. This isn't excusing his pigheadedness, just explaining it.

But one thing this episode does well is show the idea that unfamiliar situations and crises can bring out the best in people. Wally at this point has been generally depicted as a flirtatious jokester who rarely takes things too seriously, in many ways he's the stereotypical teen in the group which consequently also makes him the one with the least amount of baggage. We see that despite his flippant attitude there is a friendly and heroic figure to him, after the destruction of the Cadmus building and before Superboy settles into the Cave, he's the one offering his home as a place to stay. And when Kent Nelson is killed he's immediately trying CPR to save him and is willing to put his own notions aside to honor Nelson's last wish and take that test of faith.

I really liked how magic was depicted this episode, the Tower of Fate blends a kind of homey coziness for Kent with the bizarreness of M. C. Escher where things like gravity and physics are suggestions more than laws. We also get the first of one of the heroes playing the role of Dr. Fate, and surprisingly he goes to the one who doesn't really believe in magic. The fight really favors Klarion until the end and I like that Wally/Fate won not by being a better sorcerer but by using that analytical brain of his. But I'll get into that more when we see who else dons the helmet.

Some Final Thoughts: the seemingly innocuous shipping hints that go into this episode is kind of funny, probably because it starts with M'Gann and Artemis each trying to steer the other towards someone else besides Superboy. We'll see where this leads in "Bereft." There are times when I wonder if fate was also at work when it was Wally and Artemis who took Nelson's cane to meet him, considering he was able to engage both of them quite well and hint at what might've been between them.

I like that they kept the comics location of the Tower of Fate in Salem, Massachusetts. It also ties well into Klarion's traditional Puritan look. One thing I liked about Wally's skepticism is that his his alternative answers are based in actual science, they could've made him the skeptic for no reason beyond that the plot demanded it but they put in the work and I like that. Another detail I liked was inside the helmet the echoes of Nelson and Wally's voices were heard before they started speaking, a little audio trick to play with the mysticism.

Acting MVP goes to Ed Asner as Kent Nelson, I've always admired the fact that despite his age he's managed to keep an exuberance to his performances. It's kind of a shame that this is his only episode, he would've made for a great mentor. And I like that he plays an older hero who despite his weariness and desire to pass on and reunite with his wife, still possesses a jovial, lackadaisical attitude whether it's dealing with super villains, other-worldly terrors or just teenagers.

DC Profiles: Madame Xanadu is a recurring member of Justice League Dark and is actually Nimue of Arthurian lore who's taken the Macbeth route and walks the life of an immortal. I kinda liked how the more exasperated she got the quicker her Creole accent disappeared, and I still wonder if we'll see her again considering Nelson's hints. Abra Kadabra is as described in the episode, a charlatan. A time traveler who uses advanced technology that indistinguishable from magic for those who don't know it. He's a recurring member of the Rogues and is generally considered one their most unpleasant members.

Kent Nelson is the first person to take on the persona of Dr. Fate and originated from the Golden Age of comic books and like many who came from that time he was an archeologist who stumbled upon his destiny by accident. Klarion the Witch Boy is a recurring villain against Young Justice and Etrigan the Demon. Here he's been combined with one of the Lords of Chaos known as The Child. In the comics he comes from an other dimension called Witch World and Teekl is the conduit for his magic. I liked that the tied him and the Lords of Order into the same trouble of having difficulties manifesting in the real world, and that while Teekl gives him more independent freedom than Fate does it can make him more vulnerable.

Favorite Lines:
Wally: Nothing, this isn't simple camouflage.
Artemis: So what do you think? Adaptive microopto-electronics combined with phase-shifting?
Wally: Absolutely...not! Clearly mystic powers are at work here.
Klarion: Hey, Abra Kadabra. Aren't you using adaptive microopto-electronics and phase-shifting?
Abra Kadabra:...Yes.

M'Gann: Having trouble...maintaining altitude. I'm so hot.
Wally: You certainly are.
Artemis: WALLY!
Wally: Hey, inches above sizzling death I'm entitled to speak my mind!

Kent: Not bad for a...former "Doctor Fake" eh kid? The bubble'll give you just enough time...to do what you need to do.
Wally: I have no idea what I need to do!
Kent: Have faith...in what you can't explain. Believe in what you can no longer...deny.

Wally: Okay, okay. No problem. I'm not here. I'm just delusional.
Kent: Still don't believe? Seriously kid, how'd you get so bullheaded in fifteen short years?

Kent: Some free advice before you go. Find your own little spitfire, one who won't let you get away with nuthin'. For example that..

Remember, young or old, rich or poor, friend or foe. We're all in this together.

Technically speaking, I would argue https://gargwiki.net/Bill_Clinton would have to be a Canon-in-Training article, as his name is never mentioned at any point in canon.

Greg's statement that the President in the Gargoyles Universe is the same as in real-life is on Ask Greg only, and I would say should be treated the same as any other such statement.

Yes, this is just me being persnickety for the sake of it, but... ;D

Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"Once you taste poison, you might as well finish the meal. If it comes to that you would make as fine a dish as any." - Holo the Wise Wolf

As far as mentions/appearance goes would Bill Clinton's first mention possibly be The Edge (said in the wiki to be Bash when Hemings refers to him as Leader of the Free World) when Matt mentioned that even the President (1995) might be working for The Illuminati. Or did he probably mean any President in past terms as well.


Ten days until this awful year comes to an end.

Greg Bishansky

Third and happy Solstice! (winter in the north, summer if the south's your neck of the woods) :D
"The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Fixed it just now thanks. Even if not a Gargoyles reference, I like how Weisman introduced (helped) a baby for the Second time in Disney Animation through his Second episode of Kim Possible.

So I was looking through the wiki and I came across the piece on Rob Paulsen and the FIRST thing I noticed was that under the section for Darkwing Duck his character is listed as "Steelhead" instead of "Steelbeak."

I remember his character being a chicken, not a trout.

Remember, young or old, rich or poor, friend or foe. We're all in this together