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Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending October 17, 2021

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Oh yeah, and I want to know if the name of the blessing ceremony is a reference to another book.

[SPOILER] If Gar's photos aren't just Outsiders but also the Outsiders and Team hanging out, that might mean Looker and Livewire are on the Team? Or Windfall and Stargirl, but to be honest they seem like much more natural fits for the PR squad.

And - ok, this is probably something that will be clarified right away next week, but is the Martian at the end, who speaks with DeSaad, M'comm? I've been thinking it's another one of his group - since we never saw M'gann actually tell the guards to let him go, and they didn't seem inclined to take her seriously anyways, I assumed he was still in his cell. The character is only credited as M'alefa'ak, and we had that scene of M'comm saying that they all were M'alefa'ak, and we know from the Outsiders fan club that Martians can change their psychic voices to match a character. And I didn't think M'comm had enough of a death wish to not care about that comment on how mixed-parentage Martians might not survive. But that's probably something that'll be cleared up next time, and I suspect that (like J'onn's survival) the audience was supposed to find out the answer relatively quickly instead of having a cliffhanger. The perils of airing 2/3rds of a premiere at a time. [/SPOILER]

Karrin Blue

Oh I do enjoy the Martian naming convention too, reminds me so much of the webcomic 8-Bit Theatre where the "heroes" run across a doom cult of mindflayers who insist their names come from the old language of chaos and insanity. And it turns out they're called things like S'usan and Le'slie.

I know there's been a lot of shout-outs to the John Carter series and "Out of the Silent Planet", I wonder if any of the new characters are references to those; I kind of recall there being a sacred river in John Carter.

[SPOILER] I forgot about that photo with Tim, I wonder if him joining the Outsiders was a team up kind of situation, or whether he joined to try and get closer to Cassie or maybe it was his way of rebelling against Bats. [/SPOILER]

Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

[SPOILER] Yeah, I was surprised Em'rii watched Hello Megan too, but I think it's a great way to set up M'gann's relationship to one of her other siblings! Especially with Em'rii being the only one to attend their wedding - I can just see them being kids on Mars, being the only two who liked watching the broadcasts together, arguing over which character was better. Because after all, even if she didn't glom onto it as hard as M'gann did, there's definitely shows and movies I like because my sibling likes them way more, and watching them together is fun.

And I think they do a good job characterizing Em'rii in very little time, too. A lot through implication, but her being a scientist working on a secret project, one who had to change her name to her mother's maiden name (I assume 'M'orzz' might be an A'ashen caste name?) But did so with her parents' blessing, who was able to get orders directly from the queen - she must've worked very hard and had a very interesting career path. It's also interesting that of the three M'orzz kids we know, all of them have chosen to take on pseudonyms for one reason or another. And Hynden knocks it out of the park as always, of course.

I also loved meeting S'yyra! The social implications of her being a brand-new priestess, who might have to face censure for performing the marriage that K'ris T'epha didn't - there's a ton to dig into there. And of course, we continue the joke of Mars names being basically just very ordinary english Earth names with an apostrophe added. It's so hokey, I love it every time.

Also - Tim's in the photo Gar has on his phone of the Outsiders taking down Kobra. I wonder if that means that Robin has officially joined up, or if he came by to help for some reason?

And here's some rampant speculation, I wonder if we'll get to see any of the Markovia refugee population in America? It might make sense for Gregor and Tara to be living with them, and I'd be interested to see how they handle it.

And as a final note - ok, I might be reading too much into this, but I did like that constructing a canopy is part of the traditional Martian marriage. I'm Jewish, and it's so rare to even see homages to Jewish culture; I don't know if this was an intentional one, but when most of the fictional-religion ceremonies I see tend to be very Christian-flavored, it's nice to have ones that, well, aren't. [/SPOILER]

Karrin Blue

Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!

So thoughts on "Inhospitable" and "Needful", I'll mostly skip the points that have already been brought up unless I can add to them.

[SPOILER] So from five years to two years to one year. Maybe for next season the time skip will be six months.

Well we're promised a look into Mars culture and politics and they sure delivered, and M'comm's back in full swing too. I like that he operates under the careful use of making sure not to commit crimes while on Mars so he can use it as base of operations and stay close to his followers and continue to stoke their hatred, not that it needs any help. Looking at the situation here, we see another Frankenstein's monster in the making. The Queen has rolled back on the progressive standards that were set by the late king that xenophobia has gripped so much of the common folk that they're even unwilling to see the big picture of the Apokolips threat. And man, I've missed Kevin Michael Richardson as J'onn. Guy may not be a father, but that familial protectiveness comes down like a frikkin' hurricane. I've got some concerns about J'onn's Zeta trip, especially with the whole being observed by an unseen party, makes me wonder if that was actually J'onn that showed up at the Watch Tower. By the way, anyone remember my DC profile I did on Malefic? And his part on why Martian Manhunter is the last Martian? I don't see this ending well.

Interesting that Em'ree prefers Rita's image, I mostly imagined that "Hello Megan!" was a unique interest to M'gann rather than the family. Still, it's an interesting way to reuse a character model. I love the look of Mars and how things are built, with everyone capable of levitation, things like roads or even railways aren't needed.

So we've got Looker, Windfall, Star Girl and Live Wire in the Outsiders, that last one surprised me. Makes me wonder if Mist has joined with the Team, and just how many are still on the Team at this point. They were a little understaffed by the end of the last season. And speaking of teams, the Legionnaires have made their debut and we can safely say that they are in fact the members of the future. Saturn Girl, Phantom Girl and Chameleon Boy are interesting but appropriate choices are their combined powers match the Martian's own abilities well. But what their goal is and what their presence means is just one more mystery.

So Beast Boy's obviously feeling the mode, I'm just guessing that he and Perdita are going through a relationship burnout. With his stress of leading the Outsiders, the stress of leaving the Outsiders, her overwhelmed by political duty and probably some more things yet to be seen. It's not really been brought up but I feel that J'onn has been the major father figure in his life so losing him is probably bringing up the bad memories of losing his mother and Rita. Combine that with being cooped up for a month, having to stay in an alien form while on the surface. No wonder he's gone way past antsy.

Oh and honestly? I kinda miss Mr. Carr's beard. Nice to see Harper and Cullen have settled into a loving, if slightly hodgepodge family. And speaking of family, what do Bio-Ships do for fun? Apparently make little bio-ships. And they certainly listened to the criticism of Violet and her identity, now let's see where this spiritual journey leads. [/SPOILER]

Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

Thanks for linking the episode, Matthew.

[SPOILER] This is a lot of fun, I'm enjoying this take on the martian lore. The new Red Martian caste, the contempt for white martians. The visuals are great. Kinda funny that the Martian word for their own planet is so similar to the Roman God of War.

"Is that an earthquake??" says Beast Boy. Must... resist... urge... to make Marsquake... joke.

Carl Lumby!!! Carl Lumby as J'onn is one of my favourite casting decisions ever. His voice is so... resonant and thoughtful. Pensive. It's great to hear him playing a martian here. Hynden Walch was good too. Zehra Faisal did a great job playing the martian queen too, I thought it was Mary McGlynn or something for a second there (that's meant as a compliment).

Troy Baker is back playing an uppity bureaucrat. It's not bad or anything, but it's sort of become a bit of a pattern with him.

These days I'm always *extremely* wary when a show is trying to address racial prejudice or racial stories, even through metaphor. But I think this mostly avoids being an absolute direct comparison enough. It helps that the white martians aren't obviously a stand-in for any particular group.

Oooh, tense ending for episode 1.


[/SPOILER]

Alex (Aldrius)

I'm no expert myself, but I have heard that there are programs that allow you to change your IP so you can get streaming services from outside your country.

Alternatively, there are other sites that you can use to catch up with. I'm a big proponent of making sure things are watched legally (gotta support those creators), but back in the day I had to use one if I missed an airing because CN never did reruns of Young Justice and the video player on their website just sucked.

Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

We don't have HBO Max in Canada. HBO stuff usually streams on Crave, but they don't have it and there's no mention of it anywhere.

I assume it's just going to air on Teletoon eventually most likely. Oy. I get that CRTC and Canadian cultural protectionism is important but I wanna watch my superhero show.

Alex (Aldrius)

Oh right, sorry for the double post but before I forget:

[SPOILER] OK so, does anyone have any theories on who the new ninja girl with the whip is? My current guess is Onyx - way way back in 2014, Greg tweeted there had been Young Justice plans for her - maybe this is that? I can't find anything on a quick search for if she was a whip user, but she was an ex-assassin, so... we'll see?

Also those trailer shots of Jade and Artemis in hockey masks were appropriately creepy. The way their identities feel erased, like extensions of their dad - very evocative.

And finally, to the Markovs - you know, I'm very interested in the line where Tara says Brion still won't speak to her. I might be reading too much in, but that says to me that she's reaching out to him and he's turning her down - which means that she's still trying to reach out to him, even after that bridge-burning, even a year later, and that she still somehow has a way to get in contact with him at all.

And as an addendum to my thoughts on Beast Boy's family issues - if his line in Nevermore means that he considered Brion family... well, seeing a teammate kill someone horribly right in front of him would already be scarring, but make it someone he thought was family? No wonder that was what he saw when he got fear-blasted, and got so scared then he blew up at J'emm too. [/SPOILER]

Karrin Blue

Honestly I want to go point by point, but I've been looking at my phone so long I'm getting a bit of a headache, so...here's my current thoughts, not very organized, which may be added onto later?

[SPOILER] So, the minorest of minor things - Livewire, Looker, Windfall, and Stargirl appear to have joined the Outsiders! That's very cool. Also, Terra has a shiny new costume - one that, as far as I can tell, isn't based on any of her previous ones? I was rather hoping for the return of her gold necklace/belt/bracers, or the bomber jacket, but this one looks pretty nice too - can't wait to see it fully and in correct colors.

It also was great to see J'onn calm a riot just on the strength of his reputation! That whole scene, I loved - the overlapping conversations made it feel so tense and hectic, like anything might go wrong in any place and make the whole situation boil over, but it was still intelligible. That's hard!

I also deeply appreciate the new credits sequences. S2 and S3's minimal ones are fine and all, but a part of me will always love a good opening reel, and this one that calls back to the original and shows how much our heroes have grown - well, it got me. And then the endings! One of my favorite little bits of s3 were the quiet, soft moments, and turning them into conversations outside of the action is a great evolution of that.

And the first one we got, wow. I did think the show was going to deal with Halo and Islam, and I was willing to wait, but it really is good to see that conversation be the first credits scene. It makes me very eager to see where we go on that and how Halo defines herself now.

We hardly know the Legion yet, but I already love them. Especially with them being teens instead of adults - it's a great dynamic, especially with Saturn Girl seeming to be the older sister of the group? Not quite an adult, but the closest thing they've got.

And that argument M'gann had with M'comm - oh, it broke my heart. And he's not wrong about a lot of it, too, which is the kicker. I really wonder how they're going to resolve this plot, too - it's it's well and good to say the royalty in charge will be reformist, but this whole situation started getting worse because the people have seen that reforms only last as long as the person on the throne says they do. They need some way to make improvements stick, and, well, I'm not sure what will do that.

And finally (for now) - Garfield, something tells me you haven't been going to your Black Canary check-ins. Actually, his shouting at M'comm has already made me understand something better. If you'll remember - back in Nevermore, DeLamb says that Brion and Tara are an embarrassment to the family, and Beast Boy responds that they have a new family. That always struck me as odd - after all, Viktor and Ilona seem to have been deeply loving parents, and neither Tara nor Brion ever seemed like they wanted to renounce their family - if anything they'd be the ones to want to disown DeLamb, not the other way around. And either way, it's not Beast Boy's line to say - something that personal would be only up to them. So it seemed odd to me at the time - but with him shouting at M'comm that he, Garfield, is M'gann's brother and M'comm doesn't deserve her as a sister, it goes from being an odd line to being a pattern. And a rather illuminating one, especially taken with how he reacts to Em'rii and J'onn's disappearance.of course he has issues about family and who's worth being family with- - especially taking his long held grudge against Mento.

And I wonder if that's why he's having issues with Perdita? If she's had less time for him because of a refugee crisis, then it might poke him in the parts of his brain that, because of his trauma, think that that means she's abandoning him. Even if he intellectually knows she loves him, and has a very good reason to not be around for him right now, that pain and that reaction don't happen on an intellectual level. Heck, that conflict of a feeling he knows is unfair to her and can't get rid himself of might be why he's been so darn volatile these last two episodes. [/SPOILER]


WOW that's a lot. And not even getting into what we saw in the trailers!

Karrin Blue

Aldrius> I don't know how it works in Canada but the series is streamed through HBO Max. But DC Fandome put the first episode on their website which you can watch here:
https://media.dcfandome.com/videos/fandome2021/c1abea53-077b-47ce-873d-3ba255408ce2/index.html?utm_source=dcfandome&utm_medium=carousel&_ga=2.19064760.1045862479.1634402922-186003983.1633326833

Now as for the schedule, I understand HBO Max prefers releasing episodes one at a time to draw out the viewing rather than take the binge approach of Netflix. And I think that includes breaks. *cough hiatuses cough*

Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

Any idea when/where Phantoms is gonna air in Canada?

I'm not gonna have to watch Teletoon am I? :P

Alex (Aldrius)

I also have a lot of thoughts and am confused with the cliffhanger although it will only be about five days.
On another note SERIOUSLY MORE DESIGNATIONS! The creators are cackling at us. Yes I know it is strange but hey enthusiastic fan.

Kevin - [kevin dot nuckols at yahoo dot com]
Kevin Nuckols

I believe it's a three part premiere, then single episodes weekly until December? Though I can't work out why they'd need a hiatus - the show is basically done. The whole schedule is weird.
Karrin Blue

Yeah, it certainly looks like the triptych style from last season is making a return.

Honestly, I don't know why they held off on a the season's trailer if they were just going to put on the new season right away.

Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

GOODNESS that was a lot! It does seem to be a three part premiere, I can't figure out WHY they only made two at once - but oh well.

I enjoyed this very very much! There's so much to get into, I have no idea where to start.

Karrin Blue

The first two episodes for Season 4 just dropped!

Going to post my thoughts on them later, until then, enjoy the show!

Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

The askbox is open and it's FanDome day and, also, possibly the premiere day??

https://twitter.com/YJWiki/status/1449353314701824001

Karrin Blue

Did some digging, and found while that it's never been explicit that he was solely attracted to women, all of his relationships have been with women. And yes, DC has given him a lot of love interests to spite Stephanie. Harper Row was one of them (most likely due to the fact that writers were forbidden from using Stephanie and Cassandra at the time).

And while it's certainly easy to pawn off the blame on the fandom, it's important to remember that it's the people in charge who are determining whether new ideas and characters are given any spotlight. DC's former editor-in-chief Dan Didido was infamous for his unyielding hatred for legacy characters. Preferring to focus solely on the Batman/Superman/Wonder Woman trio at the expense of everyone else.

But shifting away from that, that's a great promo image. [SPOILER] The Red Martian is certainly looking imperious enough. I have a sneaking suspicion that they'll be key for what looks like a revolution among the White Martians. [/SPOILER]

Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

Giving that Season 4 is supposed to more magic based I am glad Mars is involved I have been looking forward to alien sorcery since the Space Spawn was hinted to have them.
Kevin - [kevin dot nuckols at yahoo dot com]
Kevin Nuckols

ALGAE> Thank you, I was trying to figure out what I wanted to say there and then you went and got it all.

Also, we have a shiny new graphic from HBO Max! Take a gander:

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/245341200398286858/898708087710572594/YJPMars_01.png

[SPOILER] So those hexagon spheres are something to do with the Mars plot... and I'd thought that White Martian might be M'Comm, but his eyes aren't yellow, they're red. So a new one? [/SPOILER]

Karrin Blue

MATTHEW> I'm not really an expert on Tim Drake or his continuity. But unless there was some previous issue that explicitly established he was exclusively attracted to women, this isn't really "reworking" his sexuality so much as elaborating on it. And I know more then one comic fan who's read a fair bit of "Ho Yay" into his friendship with the comic version of Kon-El.

Again, no expert, but if DC just wanted to take Tim "off the market" to spite Stephanie, they could just as easily have given him a female love interest. And as MD said, Tim being bi doesn't preclude him getting back together with Stephanie at some future point.

You're perfectly right about DC and Marvel having plenty of great lesser known characters who don't get enough of a push, but frankly, I kinda blame comic fandom. Most comic readers are very small c conservative. Not in the political sense but in the sense that they largely prefer stuff that's familiar.

It's almost impossible for new characters of any demographic to get any real traction at the Big Two when the bulk of the readership just want to see Wolverine and Sabertooth hack eachother to pieces for the 7856th time.

Algae
The sword is the tool of a soldier, one who fights at the behest of others, a servant to the Power. The scepter, on the other hand, this is the totem of a true ruler.

I only suggested that Jonathon's case was done more organically than what was done with Tim. And I figured that they haven't been in a consistent relationship due to executive meddling rather than the story offering nothing else for the two of them relationship wise.

And honestly, I've starting to take issue with long-running characters having their established sexuality completely reworked for the sake of inclusiveness. Is there a need for more LGBTQ representation in comics? Oh absolutely. But another recurring problem I've noticed is that while comic characters are being completely changed, they're also ignoring the multitudes of established minority characters that are just waiting in the wings.

Kind of a, "you don't need to reinvent the wheel when you've got plenty of good wheels already."

Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

I mean, by definition being bisexual doesn't erase any of Tim's previous relationships with women, or preclude him from having new ones?

Look, I love Steph as much as the next guy, but given that it's been quite a number of years since they were consistently an item, thinking of the Tim/Bernard relationship as an attack on her seems...silly to me, frankly.

Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"I don't think anyone is born knowing the reason why they're here. It's just something you have to find as you go along." - Tohru Honda

The big issue with Stephanie Brown is that the original plan was to showcase why normal people wouldn't last as a sidekick to Batman which is why she was originally slated to die after her arc. There was more than a few problems:

1: Stephanie's upbeat and positive personality was seen as a breath of fresh air to the Batman mythos. And she really endeared herself to the fans with her relationship with Tim and her almost sisterly bond with Cassandra Cain.
2: Batman's training held her to higher standards than any of his other sidekicks and some of his actions looked borderline abusive.
3: Her death was seen as needlessly gruesome (being tortured by Black Mask) and then being refused medical help by Bat's longtime ally Leslie Thompkins to "teach" Batman about the dangers of bringing kids into the life. (This was retconned later)

Combine that with the fact that editors tended to hate her and Cassandra in comparison with Barbara and you can see why making Tim Bi was another ploy from management to keep her out.

Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

Well, she is getting her own series with Cass come December, so hopefully they've thawed on her?

And Stephanie wasn't in the show for s1, and was only a quick cameo for s2, so if that exec getting annoyed did happen (and it might be only a rumor) it wouldn't have been at her.

Karrin Blue

Sadly internal politics at both Marvel and DC seem to be about the same, as for Stephanie Brown she was the daughter of the villain Cluemaster and later became the hero Spoiler, Robin, and then Batgirl. When the New 52 relaunched continuity she along with Cassandra Cain were erased in favor of Barbara Gordon becoming Batgirl which left a lot of fans upset. I would assume the current backlash is because she wasn't highlighted as a Robin... but that storyline lead to a rather brutal death at the hands of Black Mask and she was chosen as Robin when Tim Drake left apparently Batman being petty, so yeah that might be the reason why DC isn't keen on mentioning that in the future.
Kevin - [kevin dot nuckols at yahoo dot com]
Kevin Nuckols

For those of us who know very little about DC Comics and particularly its current internal politics, what is this business about keeping Stephanie Brown (and who is she?) "out of the picture"?

(It did remind me of some rumors I'd heard here during a break in the middle of the first season of "Young Justice" that the hiatus was due to the show using someone whom DC was unhappy about using, though I don't recall if it was this Stephanie or someone else.)

Todd Jensen

Given that it's Warner Bros and the petty people they have running it I wouldn't be surprised that they would try to sabotage something they don't like for whatever reason. I mean these are the people who came up with the Bat Embargo where no Batman characters could appear in animation... except of course Batman.
Kevin - [kevin dot nuckols at yahoo dot com]
Kevin Nuckols

Yeah, I'm not sure the other bat-comics have even acknowledged Bernard yet? It's a bit odd - I'd expect that kind of sweeping under the rug if it hadn't gone over well, but the reception was quite positive overall, I thought.

And, so the projected start date is a week from tomorrow? I guess I could see that, though any advertising is going to be pretty rushed. I'm torn between wanting to see everything now, and wanting it to have a proper lead-up promptional campaign that'll give it the best chance to draw in viewers and get us a fifth season... though I suppose that's out of our hands no matter what.

Karrin Blue

Not sure if this is accurate but I think it is plausible that this is when Season four will come out one week after Titans is done airing. I would take this with a grain of salt however.
https://www.thevulcanreporter.com/exclusives/young-justice-season-4-hbo-max-release-date/

Kevin - [kevin dot nuckols at yahoo dot com]
Kevin Nuckols

I had heard about the Kent family news, and more than a few news stories going "Superman is Bi now!" without specifying that it's his son Jonathon.

I'd say it's being done a lot more organically than the recent decision to make Tim Drake Bi. Cause all I was thinking when I heard that was, "Man, they'll do anything to keep Stephanie Brown out of the picture."

Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

Two days to FanDome and they still haven't released a schedule... I do hope they're not thinking everyone will sit through three and a half hours of other content to get to what they're actually watching for, or accidentally miss a panel they wanted to see because they didn't know when the 'safe' time to go make lunch or take care of chores was. Especially since only 'select portions' will be available afterwards.

Well, at least it's also two days until the askbox opens. Hopefully it doesn't get immediately overwhelmed.

Also, did everyone else hear about the Kent family news? Next month's comics will have Jon get together with one Jay Nakamura, making him another one in DC's roster of LGBTQ characters.

Karrin Blue

I'd like to recommend Don Rosa's "The Lost Charts of Columbus", one of his Donald Duck stories for Disney. In it, Donald and his nephews get involved in a lot of pre-Columbian visits to the Americas from the Old World (and not just Europe, but China as well), and the story does indeed address the fact that the Native Americans had been living there thousands of years before any of those visitors.
Todd Jensen

Perhaps so, but considering his actions with the indigenous people of the Caribbean (especially after reading Rain it's hard to view him as anything more than one more conqueror during the Age of Discovery. Albeit one with a white-washed coat of paint on him.
Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

He did permanently put Europe in contact with the Americas. There'd been earlier visits by Europeans before him (such as Leif Ericson), but it didn't stay "registered" with them (maybe in part because it wasn't until the end of the fifteenth century that the kingdoms of Europe had developed the logistics to establish lasting colonies.
Todd Jensen

MATTHEW> He had a flag.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTduy7Qkvk8

Algae
The sword is the tool of a soldier, one who fights at the behest of others, a servant to the Power. The scepter, on the other hand, this is the totem of a true ruler.

Third and wondering why some people still think Columbus "discovered" America.
Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

Second and Amen, Karrin!
Algae
The sword is the tool of a soldier, one who fights at the behest of others, a servant to the Power. The scepter, on the other hand, this is the totem of a true ruler.

Happy Indigenous People's Day!
Karrin Blue