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The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending November 21, 2021

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[SPOILER] Right, but that's what I mean about a lie that's obviously a cover story - with this sort of elaborate double cross, I don't think they'd want to run the risk of the heroes actually believing the Killer Croc story and having that work against Cassandra. I'd think they'd want to spread a story that people would notice didn't add up.

That being said, I'm not sure Cassandra blew her cover needlessly so much as, both her and Onyx were wrong or lying about what the goal was. Rather than it being a long term spying mission, that this was meant to be a retrieval for Orphan and the data. Because if the Team assumes the worst and thinks that they're both spies, then the Team would also assume they're both trying to cement their trustworthiness long term, and won't do anything to jeopardize it, and that let Cassandra blindside Artemis when her actual goal was more immediate. If everyone thinks you already have a good reason for doing something, they won't go looking for another, and passing off a quick con as step one of a long one makes it more likely people won't interfere because they think they have a surplus of time to observe and ferret out what your goal is. If that's the case, then there wouldn't be much benefit to keeping her cover- they're in the middle of the fortress, backup has been waiting this entire time, the fog just has to make it 4 feet to get into the upload tube.

If mental conditioning is on the table, I also think there's some chance the point wasn't Onyx - but rather Tigress. Luring her in, then installing some sleeper commands, so that she, a trusted member of the Team, can be made to sell their story - that might be worth trying, especially when after the whole 'broken arrow' thing they have experience with sleeper agents who don't know they're sleepers (I'm still expecting Artemis to call in a favor with Diana to borrow the lasso of truth just to be on the safe side, if she's in full control of herself after all this.)

Though in the end, the Light's MO is to pack as many different goals into a single mission as possible. So any 'this was the REAL goal' speech we get next time isn't necessarily what they wanted in the planning stage, it'll just be whatever part of the plan they actually succeeded on. [/SPOILER]

Karrin Blue

[SPOILER] I should note that the Shadows have already lied to their members in order to better sell their illusion. Ra's already did that in order to fool Red Arrow that the hit on Luthor was legitimate.

One theory that's been gaining traction is that Cassandra was acting as the obvious traitor who blew her cover needlessly in order to get Onyx in deep with the heroes. And Onyx has had mental conditioning in order to make her a sleeper agent and better sell the idea of being a defector. [/SPOILER]

When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

Okay, I think I got it now. Thanks guys
SYD - [windscreentintblacktown at gmail dot com]

[SPOILER] And where did Onyx get the 'she lost that arm to Croc' story from? I wouldn't expect the assassins to spread a contradictory story within their own ranks - actually, I'd expect them to have Cassandra cloistered for a week or so ahead of time to sell the 'she ran away' story to the ranks and put her through her paces to be sure she could act like she was missing an arm and an eye, and if they did spread a fake cover, make it one that would obviously imply to everyone involved that she had made a break for it and that they were trying to save face.

And we still haven't resolved that 'is she a ghost or a nobody' question. Although a friend of mine has a theory that Sensei helped her off the island (since he came and recruited her specifically, and perhaps felt irate that Slade was going to waste the potential of one of the few people he handpicked), either out of the same sentiment that made him spare Jade and give her a job offer or to get a favor later, and I do think there might be something there. Having the first story we heard be right is a little too neat and tidy, at least the way things stand now, and having her be, if not spying directly, in debt to someone else entirely might be a good twist. [/SPOILER]

Karrin Blue

[SPOILER] I actually think Onyx's presence created chaos and made the team *more likely* to trust Cassandra, or at least less likely to disbelieve her than if Onyx wasn't there. Like she actually gave Cassandra reasonable doubt to a degree. So I would not be terribly surprised if she were also a mole. [/SPOILER]
Alex (Aldrius)

The recent Amphibia episode "If You Give a Frog a Cookie" made it's premiere. Dr. Frakes, Cree Summer's character [SPOILER] is crazy and has no qualms capturing sentient frogs. Hard to believe, huh? [/SPOILER]

Also the second part of last week's episode. Hard to say whether King Andrias would want someone to lose to him in a game of Flipwart or would be more offended if his opponent pretended to lose.


[SPOILER] Still not sure about Onyx. If she's legit, why didn't she know about the glamour charm? It would be very on-brand for the Light to send a real mole and a decoy mole who's job was to intentionally expose themself. [/SPOILER]
Change! Change! O form of man! Free the prince forever damned!

[SPOILER] But even then that's still all so plotted that there's not much heart to it and very little emotional byplay in the dialogue, and Artemis's reaction and the conversation afterward do not imply *at all* that Artemis knew Jade was coming. But that's not even really my point. I just wish there was more of a sense of being there with Cheshire and Artemis, and seeing what's going through their minds. Beyond just the logistics of whether Onyx or Cassandra are a spy. Beyond just rescuing Cassandra, but even then, Cassandra is basically a brand new character. We know Lady Shiva, but mostly just that she's ruthless and dangerous. And in contrast to that, that's largely the purpose of the Batgirl flashback was to show that someone on the team has a personal connection/interest in Cassandra. And that works, but it's also... a bit distracting from what I think the core of this arc is.

Like using logic to work things out doesn't really work that well as far as emotional stakes go. We've never even seen Two Face or Penguin in this universe, so that doesn't really raise the personal/emotional stakes of what's going on. It's just an excuse to keep the cast small. It'd almost be better not to bring it up because narratively it's time better spent on the characters we're actually focused on. And I know silly people would complain "but what about the bat family!!?" but I guess I'm just not concerned about that myself.

I know I'm rambling, but I guess my point is more or less that the story is unnecessarily crowded and complicated when the best elements are so straight forward and simple. [/SPOILER]

Alex (Aldrius)

Oh, some more asks got answered. I have to say, it's kinda worrying to think of what Vandal and Klarion could both find fun together. Separately they're bad enough - even if Vandal hardly ever lets on that he's having a good time, what with his grim portentous great man of history shtick - but together? The idea just gives me shudders.
Karrin Blue

[SPOILER] Artemis is surprised to see Cheshire because a) she didn't know precisely when she was going to make her entrance and b) it's a leap of faith. Artemis' faith in her sister is quite strong, but Jade has seemed to abuse it before; she was PRETTY sure Jade would follow through this time but couldn't be absolutely 100% all the way to the deep little corners of her heart certain until Jade followed through on her half of the trust fall. That's why Jade asks if Artemis had any doubts, and why Artemis says she wouldn't admit to any - Jade wanted to know how far her sister's trust goes and Artemis wants Jade to know she's loved and believed in in every way that matters. And we know for certain Artemis wants to reconnect with her - Artemis tells her flat out that she wants Jade to move back in, and the one time they talked last season Artemis opened with telling Jade she had to come home to Lian. It really didn't seem at all ambiguous, at least to me - even her requesting Jade's help specifically (aside from how the Bat-Legion are in the middle of trying to keep an inter-villain gang war contained, which is also important, and how she's using this mission to get a closer read on Cassandra and Onyx as people) feels like it's her aiming at getting Jade back into the fold, used to helping the heroes, and get her that much closer to coming home. [/SPOILER]
Karrin Blue

I noticed, when I visited the GargWiki recently, that there's more "Gargoyles" merchandise coming out besides the NECA action figures, such as the plush toy versions of Goliath and Demona (which, according to the entries on them, are being made by a subsidiary of NECA - it must be really keen on "Gargoyles").

I wondered what the gargoyles would have made of those plush toy versions of themselves. (I have the vision of an indignant Demona abducting a pack of ferocious guard dogs and sending them into the factory that made those plush toys of her to rip them to pieces - and, yes, that was partly influenced by the scene in "Darkwing Duck" where Negaduck abducted the guard dogs and sent them into a Teddy Bear Museum to destroy its exhibits in order to regain his status as #1 super-villain.)

Todd Jensen

[SPOILER] Then why is Artemis surprised to see her? The whole thing is just kind of sloppy and unclear. The character beats are vague and all over the place. The story isn't even about Cheshire really or whether Artemis can trust her. She claims she needs Cheshire's help, but that's all undermined by the fact that she has a legion of bat characters at her beck and call anyway, so it's hardly like Cheshire specifically is necessary. Does she want to reconnect with her sister? Probably. But the writing and direction don't make that obvious either because Artemis is so stone-faced.

And that sort of unfeeling demeanor works in her byplay with Cheshire, it's certainly a lot of fun but as a character beat, and as our "lead" for this arc, it's just harder to get invested in. At least for me.

I gave a little cheer when Cheshire showed up, but in the end the whole thing just felt kind of shallow and I don't want to say manipulative but maybe a little coercive. [/SPOILER]

Alex (Aldrius)

[SPOILER] Her saying 'you're all mad as hatters' was her signaling Artemis that she'd follow them to the island secretly. Artemis and the others had to leave right away, and any meet-up would have tipped off the actual mole to expect her - and the point of it anyways was the leap of faith, Artemis trusting that Jade would have her back. The Lady or the Tiger is all about putting your life in the hands of someone who might turn on you, and Artemis trusting that Jade would follow through is an echo of that theme. Artemis even repeats the 'mad as a hatter' line as a response to Babs talking about how sisters have to be there for each other.

Plus, if Artemis knew all along for sure that Jade was going to come back her up because they'd met up, and Jade knew that Artemis was going on objectively knowledge and not battered years-old faith in her, we wouldn't have gotten that "Crock of sh-" joke I'm sure someone in the writer's room's been saving up for ten years. [/SPOILER]

Karrin Blue

[SPOILER] So my personal head canon is that Ivy inquired to some of the other senior members of the Light about possibly creating more Kobra Venom plants. But their focus had shifted so whatever plans they had with the plants was shelved. This ticked her off and word got through the Arkham grapevine until it reached Joker. And he probably pieced things together when he wasn't invited to "play" anymore.

But then the Light also seems that they're not the type to suffer fools or clowns and considering he tried to kill both heroes and villains at the end of "Revelations", I'd say that just secured the "we don't work with loose cannons" mindset that they adopted later on. [/SPOILER]

When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

[SPOILER] I thought this episode was even better than last week's and I really liked last week's.

Liked the Joker a lot more here. To my mind the Joker's kind of a waste if he's not funny, and they basically just wrote the Dini Joker here more or less and the Dini Joker is one of the best versions of a villain ever so that's fine (and that's actually impressive because the Dini Joker isn't an easy thing to write). I think they were trying too hard to make him distinct and dark in his first appearance and it's really just not necessary in my opinion.

There was a lot going on in this episode, though, and I think I would have rather spent the time learning more about Cassandra Savage and the other girl and Tigress than I would have learning how Batgirl got paralyzed. But I also think that the Batgirl flashbacks were important to showcase how Cassandra Cain is important to the team. But also Batgirl came out of nowhere in terms of the narrative. But having said all that I thought it was effective.

I was really glad to get a follow up to what was going on with Miss Martian this episode. I think that subplot made a better companion piece to the story going on than the Beast Boy scenes did last week. It was also really satisfying to see her taking out the White Martians. One thing I will say is, I love Kevin Michael RIchardson, I've never heard him be bad in *anything*, and there are some roles that he just *owns*. Jolee Bindo in Knights of the Old Republic, he was great in Invincible, Gantu from Lilo and Stitch. But it frustrates me that Carl Lumby's in the show but he isn't playing J'onn. It's been almost 20 years and J'onn's a relatively minor character, it wouldn't be distracting! Gah! Just my personal pet peeve.

Again, the Cheshire turnaround was weird. It's like her saying "You're all Mad as Hatters" was just some random line. I assumed there was a missing scene from last week where Cheshire and Artemis met up on a rooftop and made a plan. But no, Cheshire just... showed up. Would have liked a bit more tension and payoff there. More focus on Tigress and Cheshire's relationship. I know we got A LOT of that last week, but it felt unresolved and here it felt rushed.

Hopefully this doesn't sound like I'm negging too much. I have a very critical mind and I really don't know what to say about what I loved about the episode. The Cassandra reveal was great, the action was good, the pacing was amazing. The acting was solid. I laughed a fair bit. I think the Tigress poem was cool. The episode went by so fast that when it was over all I could say was "that's it?" and be left waiting for next week. [/SPOILER]

Alex (Aldrius)

KEVIN - According to Malory, Morgause was married to King Lot at the same time as Uther's marriage to Igraine, shortly before Arthur was born. She was evidently old enough to be married off, but hadn't been married off yet, which would fit the older range of the "ten to fifteen years older than Arthur" that you suggested.
Todd Jensen

Oh man, a lot happened.

[SPOILER] Well dang, I was hoping both would be for real, but i guess the first story we heard was the real one (unless Cassandra turns out to be the 'unexpected source' in next episode?) Nice to see the glamour charm come back, and the infiltrators - how fitting that those were introduced in Artemis and Jade's debut episode, too. And it looks like Artemis still carries Flash ration bars - I always headcanoned the Team did, first so that Wally would have backups and then because they're very practical, but it's nice to see that nodded to.

I also noticed that, while Arrowette covered Cassandra for that tranq shot and fell on her, and so probably would have noticed her arm wasn't actually gone, the drugs probably made it pretty hard to remember what happened around then.

Also, I suppose after 8-ish years I have to say goodbye to my theory that the Light put Joker down after the Jason fiasco. Though I did like his performance here a bit more than season 1 - the whole 'RIDDLER knew?!' Bit was pretty good, and I really want to know what annoyed Ivy so much that she told Joker what was up.

I liked the work we got for Babs and Cass. It's an interesting way to tie Babs' paralysis and Cass' regret together, as well - though geez, Babs, that really was a snap decision, even though she was right I don't know how she'd have known Cass wasn't a hardened assassin. Maybe she got a tip-off the Light was sending a new Shadow out, and so was expecting Cass? Hm. And the Batfamily beating down Joker was very satisfying, I'll admit. But Alyson's delivery on the I found you was the highlight.

The little bits of Mars we saw were great too - M'gann's beatdown did make me a little worried she would resort to mind ripping M'comm, but she's at least not resorting to that again. I wonder what the rest of the League will do now that they know some stranger was gunning for Conner specifically - they probably won't guess 'time travellers' straight away but it's definitely going to eat at them. I'm also curious at Em'ree deciding to go with M'gann, I would have thought her career would keep her on Mars. I kinda get the impression she's going mainly to be emotional support for M'gann, but Earth is probably going to grow on her. And on a narrative level, I'm pretty curious to see what problem she's going to solve by being around- something to do with zeta science?

Poor J'ann and M'att, though.

Karrin Blue

Just a random thought/question with the Arthurian lore being brought up, does anyone have an idea how old Morgause is compared to Arthur? I always thought she was around 10 to 15 years older but I am not as Arthurian minded and wanted to ask those who would. And I am going to see if I can talk about spoilers with an educated guess about the title message because I don't know if I can type in the right keys!
[And I think the title card message will be Invitation to the 31st Century] Hopefully that spoiler tag worked I am not very computer literate.

Kevin - [kevin dot nuckols at yahoo dot com]
Kevin Nuckols

I love reading the spoiler comments.
chattanooga residential home repair - [mc9897309 at gmail dot com]

Lot of bombshells this episode. My initial thoughts on, "The Lady, or the Tigress?"

[SPOILER] So I figured that M'gann would be taking the the long trip back with B.B. after she raised Hell for what M'Comm did. I didn't expect that the two events would be covered in the same episode. I sure didn't expect Em'ree to be coming along as well, I like to think that she's taking a page from her uncle's book and going out in part to expand her perspective and leave old prejudices behind.

So I think we've seen the end of the Ma’alefa’ak Movement, given that their big coup failed and M'comm cowardly fled leaving his followers behind. I imagine he's fled to Apokolips where he'll take a bigger part in the galactic conflict since he's used up what goodwill there is left on Mars. For extra karma, I think it would be super cathartic if he ended up as the whipping boy for Darkseid's forces as he realizes what happens when you get in bed with those devils. And of course we have a confirmation that the kryptonite was added by the unseen adversary, I'll be glad when we finally figure out who that is.

So as it turns out lil' Savage was the plant and was using a glamour charm to fake the injury, and was using the Fog to bypass security. I've mentioned before that I love the back and forth between the heroes and villains, each side adapting and using the tactics of the others. And apparently Artemis was relying on Oracle as backup and Cheshire's presence was just her conscience kicking in. So it looks like the whole thing was a set up to get back Cassandra and intel on the League. Still, I'm hoping for one more twist from the villain's side, since as Artemis pointed out, Onyx being right about Cassandra doesn't exclude her from being a mole.

But the big shock for me was the reveal about Barbara's transition from Batgirl to Oracle. The fact that Orphan was the one responsible for paralyzing her when she tried to kill the Joker is fascinating considering Cass and Bab's less than stellar relationship in the comics. One thing that's stood out to me is that Cass is still quick to violence even after the shock of giving out such a grisly wound, it makes me wonder if she'll still have her moment where she'll actually kill someone and the shock of it will cause her to swear off ever doing something like that again. [/SPOILER]

Great episode, I really can't wait for the end of this arc and to see where it goes.

When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

I haven't ordered a copy of the Goliath action figure myself (for one thing, I'd have a difficult time at present finding room for it), but I still get a kick out of its accessories being a book (a salute to Goliath's reading habits) and the infamous jalapena pepper.

[SPOILER] Etrigan has true Arthurian links, more than you'd think; Jack Kirby based his design on an early scene in the comic strip "Prince Valiant in the Days of King Arthur", where a young Prince Valiant disguises himself as a demon to scare a robber-knight to death - literally. [/SPOILER]

Todd Jensen

Gone! Gone! O form of man...

Oh, and I see [SPOILER] You already changed your signature to match that guess. [/SPOILER]
Karrin Blue

KARRIN> [SPOILER] Personally, I'm hoping for Etrigan. Klarion started out as Jason Blood's nemesis and it would give Greg an excuse to squeeze some Arthuria into Earth-16. Plus I just dig the big horny bastard. [/SPOILER]
Gone! Gone! O form of man...

Yeah, [SPOILER] We definitely have the 'INVITATION' part of the title acrostic done - can't wait to see 11 and 12 and find out what we're being invited to. That aside, there really are a ton of demons in DC, so I have no idea how to narrow down which one is rising. I'm guessing not Trigon - none of Zatanna's kids in the trailer look like Raven, and using him in a Zatanna plotline would be odd - but maybe Etrigan? It'd be fun if the writers could stretch their rhyming muscles again, and I do have a soft spot for the big guy. Or maybe Neron, or Brother Night? One's a demon and the other is occasionally a demon summoner, and one of Zee's rogues. [/SPOILER]
Karrin Blue

Sorry, that should be [SPOILER] Nomed Esir! [/SPOILER]
Gone! Gone! O form of man...

So I was browsing the YJ wiki and noticed someone apparently put up the title and logline for ep 410...


Gone! Gone! O form of man...

This isn't the ask queue, and also that question would only get a SPOILER REQUEST, NO COMMENT.
Karrin Blue

I have a question are superboy is come back in season 4 of young justice and officialy marry miss martian
Dragon slayer - [Abdalrhmanhassaan8 at gmail dot com]

Masterdramon - I did not know about a Thailog figure, but NECA did announce Demona, Hudson, and Bronx. The Bronx figure includes a "cape" wing set for Goliath.

I hope they add the rest of the Manhattan Clan (including Katana, Nashville, and Fu-Dog). I wouldn't object to adding a pre-cyborg/robot Coldstone and Coldfire. Basically, any Gargoyle they want to make figures for I would be OK with.

Adam Carlson

A few more asks got answered! I'm a little surprised to hear that J'ann and M'aatt's wedding time is a spoiler - honestly I thought it'd been implied somewhere in the episodes and I was just missing it. I'm also wondering at the Monkey God coming into existence 7 million years ago - putting aside that the MG objectively exists (well, we all knew he wasn't actually a hallucination, but still), I'm not sure what happened 7 million years ago? Monkeys seem to have already evolved by then, so it's not that he came into existence when they did, but humans still were a long ways off, so it's not a 'gods come into existence when people come up with the idea of them and worship them' sort of situation. Is it a reference to some part of the comics?
Karrin Blue

Adam: It took quite a while, but yes! Received mine about a month after some other folks in this room, but that's not too unusual for Hawaii now given general supply chain disruptions. Not sure what I have to say that hasn't already been articulated by others, but it's a darn fine figure.

Albeit, his truly enormous wingspan means finding space for Goliath on my already crowded shelves was a chore...hopefully the big guy isn't too confused by being stuck between Erza Scarlet and Diana Cavendish. ;P

Incidentally, the pre-orders for the corresponding Thailog figure are open as of today as well.

Phoenician: Selfishly, I do wish more folks (including Greg himself) had rambled about CONvergence 2014, LOL. It was the only "Gathering" I was ever able to attend and I would've loved to hear more about others' perspectives on it. Hopefully there will be another chance in the (eventual) post-pandemic future!

Matthew: Yeah, I saw that as soon as he put it out. Solid effing gold. XD

Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"I don't think anyone is born knowing the reason why they're here. It's just something you have to find as you go along." - Tohru Honda

Have you ever wanted to hear Josh Keaton sing a Black Spider version of the Spectacular Spider-Man theme song?

If so, here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdxCmYla9Yk

When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

GargWiki has the citation that it was first revealed in 2003, although Conjournals from anyone who was in attendance that year in New York definitely confirm it. And just, wow -- Conjournals are truly a precious gift.
GregW's ramble -- https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=201

As well as all those conjournals written from attendees in the 2003 Gathering archive -- https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/archives.php?lid=150

Gorebash, Mandi "Mandolin" Ohlin, Shaun "BrooklynX", Greg Bishansky, Ellen, Patrick Toman, Carter, Vashkoda, Spacebabie -- some of you I didn't even get a chance to meet in person until 2009, but its always been a pleasure to read to those journals.

Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."

Fourth, and if anyone was curious, in 2020 the first storm of the season was Tropical Storm Arthur, in May. So Earth-16's Hurricane Amy in April is ahead of schedule and, if it's already a hurricane, quite a bit stronger. Definitely sounds like supervillain involvement.
Karrin Blue

Third. So, who else has gotten their NECA Goliath?

Also, does anyone know which Gathering of the Gargoyles (I am assuming it was at a GotG event) that Greg confirmed Lexington was gay?

Adam Carlson

A bit slower today, so that makes me second.
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

#1 Number one with a bullet but always first over all!
Vinnie - [thomaspeano at yahoo dot com]
Deplorable and loving it!