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The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending November 28, 2021

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Happy first night of Hannukah, everyone! Chag sameach!

[SPOILER] Jade's such a fascinating character to give this fear too. Because on some level it is reasonable, she sees all these things that seem to say her presence puts the people she loves in danger (the Shadows putting a hit on her, for one thing!) - but those aren't why she runs away, she runs away because they give her an excuse to believe the worst fears she has about herself, that she's inherently corrupting and awful and selfish and that the best thing to do is go out in a blaze of glory suicide run before her will can break. It's really interesting!

And I can't really blame an eleven year old Onyx for not picking up Sensei's scam. Kids really don't have a good sense of that sort of thing, and like Algae says they can have a good sales pitch.

That said, I seriously doubt she or Onyx is going to stay there. Even putting Jason aside - which, he probably will be what pulls the curtain away on Ra's - Jade has to face the music on her family, and Onyx has her whole life ahead of her. We still have 18 episodes to go - a lot is going to change.

And as a last thing... man, the scene with Clark and Lois is really a kick in the teeth. The part that gets me most of all is Clark's "I wasted so much time" - because we know, counting him approaching Conner in Qurac, it only took him about 5 months to come around, compared to nearly ten years of brotherhood. But that's how grief works - the time you spend together seems so fleeting, and every moment you fought or didn't get along seems incredibly, obscenely long. It's a really great scene. [/SPOILER]

Karrin Blue

MATTHEW> [SPOILER] I can actually totally see why the Shadows would appeal to impressionable and alienated young people. From an in universe perspective of people who don't know Ra's full goals and history, they kinda do look like badass revolutionaries trying to take down The System,like an entire army of batmen. [/SPOILER]
Change! Change! O form of man! Free the prince forever damned!

Ah, I beg your pardon.
I mostly use my real name because I couldn't think of an alias when I first started here.

When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

[SPOILER] Just for the record I prefer Alex to Aldrius, Aldrius is just in brackets because I used to go by that name on a lot of forums and things.

Re: Shiva. That's cool, and it's something I would be eager to see more of, but as it is it just felt a *little* old hat. [/SPOILER]

Alex (Aldrius)

This does remind me that I should read more Maya Angelou.

So my initial thoughts on "I Know Why the Caged Cat Sings", [SPOILER] So the action on Santa Prisca ended a little quicker than I expected. I mean it ends at the halfway point but I still imagined it would go on until the end of the episode. What I didn't expect was for the last act to go so deep into the drama between Artemis and Jade.

Looking at things now, I think I truly understand Jade's position. She isn't a coward like Talia accuses, but she is afraid. Afraid of what the Shadows might do to the people she cares about, afraid of what her life and what she is might do to the people close to her, afraid that she'll end up life every adult that's raised her. That moment when she has a panic attack at seeing Lian's homemade mask really made me realize just how much the Shadows messed her up, and the frightening thing is that Sensei pretty much up and admits that they preyed upon wayward and broken youths and did just what Shiva wanted to do. And yet Cheshire and Onyx go right back into the fold the moment Ra's offers a few pretty words about helping them. And all I can think is that they've exchanged the "kill or be killed" of the League for a cult of personality on Infinity Island. Because let's face it, Ra's may not be a liar, but he's not exactly generous with the truth. He wasn't lying about not being in the Light or leading the Shadows, but he neglected to mention that he's still in communication with his old colleagues. And I'm still waiting for the Red Hood pen to drop.

So Onyx didn't end up joining the Team, that surprised me. What also surprised me was the talk of race relations she had with her grandfather, him the Booker T. Washington type and her Malcolm X. I haven't read I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings but I am aware of its themes of race so mentioning this was an interesting development. The arguments of how minorities are expected to behave is still ongoing, and the argument on what is acceptable behavior within their own race and outside of it is a big point of contention. The "model minority" is still treated as the best way for non-whites to behave and rather worryingly, I've seen that argument put forth the most by white people. The truth is, someone shouldn't have act like a Sidney Poitier character to be accepted. And while I empathize with Onyx's desire to be a more active member of change, c'mon. The Shadows?

There's also the matter of Talia, while Ra's and Sensei may be willing to rehabilitate the former Shadows (or turn them into what they need them to be), Talia looks less than pleased by this development. I've had this sneaking suspicion that she's going to either want a seat at the Light's table or if going by her comic counterpart, wants to found Leviathan. And the presence of these strays is going to disrupt it. [/SPOILER]

And Aldrius? [SPOILER] If Shiva is like her comic book counterpart, she might actually be happy that her daughter would be the one to end her. In the comics she's had something of a death wish ever since she was encouraged to kill her own sister in order to unlock her potential as a warrior. Cassandra beheading her would not only fulfill her desire to turn her into the perfect weapon, but also have her meet her end at the hands of a truly superior opponent. [/SPOILER]

When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

[SPOILER] Uh, yeah this one was all over the place. Again, there's so much reasoning going on. Jade and Artemis's conversation was so logiced out, and so long, and I just wanted one moment of earnestness. Just something tiny and meaningful. And Onyx... all I could think was, why is Onyx in this scene, she's just taking away from the strong focus we have on what the arc is ULTIMATELY about: will Cheshire come home? And the like factoid drop in the middle of the scene that her grandfather was someoneone important didn't work for me at all.

But otherwise, I kind of like Sensei's role in this story... I think. And I kind of liked the retroactive flashbacks... I think. The fight in the dark, with Lady Shiva and Cassandra I liked, in terms of the artistry, but Shiva smiling because Cassandra was going to behead her, and I dunno, the whole plotline just felt a bit played out to me. It was very familiar. But like, I'm not even sure why Batgirl went out of her way to help this girl she barely knows? There just wasn't time for it because there's not enough focus.

I didn't dislike it or anything, just some quibbles that keep popping up. [/SPOILER]

Alex (Aldrius)

I love reading the spoiler here.
residential concrete services norfolk - [hurdlinda939 at gmail dot com]
Gotta Make Things Great

Oh, and apologies for the double post, but some more idle thoughts:.

[SPOILER] Firstly, I thought that explanation Clark had for Johnny, and the misunderstanding, definitely felt like someone writing it has had to explain death to toddlers before. Turns out at least part of it is a quote from Erin Weisman, Greg's daughter and a pre-school teacher, in an article on how to explain death as a teacher (the whole thing is linked to on Greg's Twitter.) I liked how Clark was careful not to go into the 'is the soul real' debate (although I suppose he actually does know, since he was there when Fate said he was releasing Kent's soul to the afterlife), both because out of universe this is supposed to be a guide for anyone to any child, and therefore being specific about any one religion wouldn't be helpful, and because implying that Clark and Lois are raising their kid areligiously is a neat tidbit of character.

Also, while I still wouldn't be certain about anything, I would lay decent odds that Nightwing's arc is going to come prior to Rocket's. Here's my reasoning: assuming that Dick's arc is going to deal with Jason (someone they've been teasing for two seasons, and really the only choice that doesn't need them to come up with a conflict on the spot, unless they want to involve the whole Gray Son Court of Owls stuff), then that's necessarily going to be a follow up on Jade and Onyx. How Jason has changed after being resurrected, what his goals are and how he goes about it and how much Ra's had to do with those, all those are going to mean something for Jade and Onyx's meditation retreat (in addition to them just being around him and finding out his deal and deciding to tip Artemis off or not.) So unless Ra's and Sensei really truly turned over a new leaf, and perhaps even if they have, I think that'll be what gets them to bite the bullet on going back to civilian life.

And at this point, while Jade has to go back to Lian (nothing else would really be satisfying, as far as I can tell), that leaves Onyx at loose ends - as she said, she doesn't really know how to be a person, her only family has died, and the desire to make change happen in the world she had as a child got co-opted so someone could string her along and make her useful. So where does she go from there? Well, I think she might take a look at Rocket - a first year Team member, a woman who raised her child alone for several years, the first Black woman to join the League - and see what she has to teach. Rocket has always been a character about inspiring others, starting with Icon, and dollars to donuts her arc is going to have something to do with fighting systemic injustice on Earth (maybe the prison system? She does complain about it in the radio play...), so if Onyx is back in the world that could dovetail together very neatly.

I'm also hoping whatever Rocket's arc is, it also involves her fellow Milestone co-stars. But that's a bit tangential.

And finally... is anyone else thinking Jason's face got messed up by the Lazarus Pit? It's one thing when he was wearing that to an active fight, but he's still wearing it in group meditation, when Jade and Onyx never met Jason Todd as far as we know and probably wouldn't recognize him. And the shot could have easily been made so that we couldn't see his face. And out of universe - look, either you already know that's Jason, in which case there's not much point in being coy about it, or you don't, in which case his only really distinguishing feature is his hair, which we can see already. He doesn't have a distinctive mole or birthmark we could see on the memorial hologram that would tip someone off if he took the mask off. So the mask seems to be hiding a reveal less that he has the same face as someone we know, and perhaps more that his face has changed significantly. And we do have at least one other example of the Pit changing someone - poor Clayface, although he was alive, had a terminal illness, and was stuck in there for quite a while - and Jason probably had already decomposed a lot when he was dug up. So... I'm not sure, but I hope I'm not overthinking something that turned out to just be, they wanted to save money on character models. [/SPOILER]

Karrin Blue

Happy Thanksgiving!

I have no idea what's going on in this show anymore. In a good way! [SPOILER] The added scenes from s1 were pretty great, and that fight scene in the dark, wow. Gwendoline Yeo hamming it up as Shiva, too.

But, uh. I think Matthew might have been right on about Ra's resurrecting Jason to make amends? But seriously, what is going on with Infinity Island being the new home for wayward assassins. That seems pretty wildly sketchy, and Sensei bluntly admitting that he and Ra's did incredible wrong by Onyx and Jade right before saying that he can help them - either he's genuinely remorseful (in which case, why? What prompted that?) Or this is just another way to pull them both back into the fold. Ra's did tip off the Light about the attack on Infinity Island last time, so is he just humoring Sensei for the time being?

And how is all this going to impact the Jason arc? If he has people to talk to who've seen the Team and the outside world recently, if Artemis ever tries to say hi to him as the one person she doesn't know and realizes she DOES know him - I have no idea what's going to happen there. Not to mention Damian, who might be getting a far more relaxed upbringing than usual?

... I'm still very excited for the Zatanna arc, but I really need to see how all this resolves. At least this show always keeps you guessing. [/SPOILER]

Karrin Blue

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!

While this is a minor matter, of course, on the list of things to be thankful for, let's give thanks that "Gargoyles" got hommages on both "Ducktales" and "Amphibia", and that new pieces of "Gargoyles" merchandise are being produced.

Todd Jensen

My personal take, [SPOILER] If we're going by Under the Red Hood logic, Ra's stole Jason's body and resurrected him because of his own dark form of penance, to make up for the fact that he was the one who hired the Joker in the first place. Now for YJ, it could be possible that Jason was killed by the Joker or some other villain, outside of a mission. Someone who broke the rule about no targeting the heroes when they're out of costume. So Ra's may have wanted to resurrect Jason as part of his own dark sense of honor. And as a plus, he's got an operative trained by the Bat with the Shadow's lethal edge. [/SPOILER]
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

Oh, that's a good point. [SPOILER] And him not being responsible would explain why the Light didn't consider him that much of a wild card before now. I'll admit, I am partial to the Death in the Family being just this senseless tragedy - that it wasn't just a death in battle, but someone actively gunning for him and baiting him with his trying to find and save his long lost mother. Actually, you could probably draw a parallel there between that and Superboy's 'death', if you really wanted to.

... You know, somehow it completely slipped my mind when I was writing that that we still have to resolve the Legion plot, and that that's the most natural finale arc? Thank goodness it's a holiday tomorrow, and a long weekend after that. But of course that's got to be dealt with. [/SPOILER]

Karrin Blue

Karrin: As of now, [SPOILER] I see no reason to assume Joker had anything to do with Jason-16's death at all.

Otherwise, I think you're on the right track. Though I think the finale episodes are most likely to focus on Superboy's return from the year 3000, and the Team battling the Legion's mysterious unseen enemy (whom I have a very distinct theory on the identity of, but will hold close to my chest for now). [/SPOILER]

Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"I don't think anyone is born knowing the reason why they're here. It's just something you have to find as you go along." - Tohru Honda

Some thoughts on how events from last week's episode might impact future arcs:

[SPOILER] So, OK. While this take on Babs' paralysis is to make her more of an active participant in the story, I wonder if it's going to also shake up how things go with Jason? For the sake of argument, I'm figuring that the Nightwing-centric arc will also be when Jason comes back into play - and if we're talking about Under the Red Hood, Jason's anger that the Batfamily didn't avenge him is pretty pivotal. So how's he going to react to finding out Babs (even if it wasn't for his sake) saved the Joker, or that Cass had originally tried to kill him? And was that the Light's last attempt on the Joker? They are a 'try, try again' sort of group, and 'The Shadows actually took out the guy who killed me, while you tried to stop them' could be one of the motives driving Jason.

Actually, I wonder - we've all noticed that with 6 four episode arcs, we have two left over, of course. It's pretty likely there'll be a two-part finale, or else a 3 part finale and 3 part focus arc for someone, but - and this is long odds, as I said - I wonder if we might get those last 2 stuck onto someone's four? And by someone I mean the Jason arc, and using the extra time for a whole-Team focus. All these individuals arcs are great and all, but I have to say, they're really giving me a hankering for the s1 days when we had the core cast working together, taking point together - the only time that's really happened since was, what, the raid on the Orphanage, which ended up going south pretty quickly? And to be honest, I think YJ has a real opportunity here. In comics, Jason very rarely has strong ties to the rest of the hero community, especially prior to his death. He wasn't on any teen hero teams, he didn't have any close friends - he was in a sort of awkward middle space between generations, being Dick's replacement, and I've always thought that's a missed opportunity. His being alienated and apart from the superhero community as the Red Hood doesn't land half as well if that was his norm pre-death, at least in my view.

So, since we already know that wasn't the case in YJ, why not lean into it? Really show how his death and resurrection affected not just the Batfamily, but the whole Team - how he was Dick's pick to become Robin, how he might've been the collective little brother of the originals, who he was friends with (he would've probably been around Mary and Freddy's age, right? Maybe they were friends - it'd explain why they both couldn't stay on the Team by the time Legacy rolled around, if they were grieving him.) Six episodes would be enough to dig down into all of that, and delving into how every member of the Team feels and reacts would keep it from feeling like the Batfamily's drama is the center of attention, making it a Team affair instead of a Gotham one. And really, from another angle - if we were to get a Kid Flash resurrection, or Superboy, we wouldn't expect only the Flash family or the Super family to be involved, we'd expect all the kids to pitch in to get their friend back. So why not Jason?

Of course, that's just a guess, and one heavily informed by what I, personally, would want to see, not necessarily what the writers want to do. We'll see, I guess! [/SPOILER]

Karrin Blue

Well, they did allude to it in that hour-long episode where Darkwing's enemies were brought into the regular duck-world (Solego was named as the inventor of the device that could open portals between worlds).

And happy birthday, Salli!

Todd Jensen

Heh, good title Todd. Though I'm still disappointed "Ducktales" never did anything with that.

Incidentally, a happy birthday to Salli Richardson-Whitfield.

When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

A thought I've had for a while:

If we ever get the "Gargoyles" story about Queen Mab, it'd be tempting to title it "Legend of the Chaos Goddess".

Todd Jensen

If we do get a flash back with the Doom Patrol, I'd like to see how different, or similar, they are to their "Doom Patrol Go!" counterparts.

I mean I'm pretty sure they didn't randomly burst into song, but you never know.

When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

Third, this isn't the ask queue, and that would be a spoiler request (although most of them are pretty dead, so it would have to be a flashback, and I'm not sure where that would fit into the Zatanna, Rocket, Aquaman, or Nightwing arcs, so it seems rather unlikely to me.)
Karrin Blue

Will The Doom Patrol (Once again voiced by Scott Menville, Hynden Walch, Khary Payton, & Tara Strong) appear again in Young Justice:Phantoms?
zareth jones - [zarethjones29 at gmail dot com]
zareth jones

#1 Number one with a bullet but always first over all!
Vinnie - [thomaspeano at yahoo dot com]
Deplorable and loving it!