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Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending December 12, 2021

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ACK!! Sorry bout that! Avert your eyes, children!
Algae
Change! Change! O form of man! Free the prince forever damned!

[SPOILER]Honestly, I can't say a really mind Vandar having so many descendants running around. Statistically speaking, the farther back you go, the more ancestors you're going to have in common with basically everyone else on the planet. So yeah, if there really was a fertile immortal wandering the Earth since the Upper Paleolithic, it'd be more unbelievable if their DNA hadn't gotten everywhere by now.

Plus all this backstory is being narrated by Vandar himself, so naturally he's going to depict himself as The Most Important Person EVAH![SPOILER]

Algae
Change! Change! O form of man! Free the prince forever damned!

[SPOILER] Honestly I take Fate's involvement enough as a given that I don't count him as someone the gang would need to seek out to ally with. He's already their ally and he's supposed to be on call for this kind of thing, after all. Plus, as long as YJ is an ensemble show, I like seeing new people pop up for one-offs. [/SPOILER]
Karrin Blue
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Question: Are any of the NECA Gargoyles figures for sale yet besides Goliath? I was hoping to get a Hudson, but AFAICT only Goliath has been released thus far.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

[SPOILER] I think the calling for help line was a reference to Nabu/Dr. Fate honestly. Which is why we immediately cut to him talking to Savage. I'm not... sure if I like Vandal Savage being linked to so many things. It makes the lore super clean and fairly easy to follow, but it also makes it feel really small. Having said that, I really love all the lore-heavy flashbacks. I think they're cool.

I laughed so hard at the goofy three treasures joke. It was so self-indulgent, but it worked I think.

Not sure how I feel about the child. She's fine I guess. I like Zatanna's little team of sorcerers a lot. I liked the take on Jason Blood I think. I'm not a huge Etrigan fan, but if it leads to more myth and lore stuff I'm all for it.

The week-to-week of the show is starting to grate on me *a bit*. I don't want the whole season all at once or anything, but it's starting to feel a little piece meal. [/SPOILER]

Alex (Aldrius)

I remember back in Season 3, what Olympia said about death being a waste when life can be used to serve a greater purpose.

[SPOILER] Unfortunately for the people of Atlantis, their deaths were to be the greater purpose for a few others' lives. [/SPOILER]

Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

That's true! [SPOILER] And oh, to be a fly on the wall when Arion' king in his own right for decades, has his grandpa come back and say 'OK let's use that divine blessing you got for being such a good king to kill 90% of your citizens and take over the oceans.' How you even respond to that, I've got no idea. I wonder if Olympia ever taught Cassandra about that little escapade... [/SPOILER]
Karrin Blue
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[SPOILER] It does tie back to Vandal's "survival of the fittest" spiel from way back in 2010, forcing the Atlanteans to evolve on a more "advanced schedule". [/SPOILER]
Algae
Change! Change! O form of man! Free the prince forever damned!

Took me a bit to get around to watching this, but here's some thoughts!

[SPOILER] I don't mind Vandal being the forefather of the Atlantean magi so much - for one thing, I like the 'metas, magic, and God Stuff are all different facets of the same adaptability', and given that this happened over a thousand years I think it's pretty likely other demigods and magic users arose who didn't have genetic links to Vandal. I was a bit surprised Vandal 'death is waste' Savage was willing to kill so many thousands of people - but then, maybe that point of view arose after Atlantis' wholesale destruction, or maybe Olympia was editorializing.

Also, hey Jason and Etrigan! It was great to see them again, but I'm surprised - Etrigan had only one rhyming line! I wonder why they didn't put in more. Maybe next time?

And yeah, that scene with Em'ree and M'gann was great. A bit clumsy on Em'ree's part - she probably got the base idea from TV - but trying her best, and it was great to see M'gann immediately realize what she's actually trying to do.

I desperately need to see what happened on Earth-17, though. I know it's probably meant to be a noodle incident, but I've wanted a jump to another parallel world for ages! A crime syndicate style world would probably be a bit too goofy and cut and dry morally for the show, but I'd love a Justice Lords style spin on things.

It does seem more and more likely that Nabu is going to switch to Khalid soon. I'm just hoping Giovanni doesn't die before it happens - this season has been so dark, Zatanna getting her father back would be really nice.

And I really wonder who is going to get called in to help. I'm personally hoping Amethyst of Gemworld makes an appearance - she's a teen hero (even a member of the comics Young Justice, although since that was recent Greg might not be up on it), Child's enemy, and a Lord of Order or one of their avatars. Aside from her, though, I'm not sure.

...pretty worried about Roanoke, though, I won't lie. Hopefully we'll at least see some heroes doing damage control there, even if they can't help with the magic fights themselves. And that bus! Seriously, what is going on with that. [/SPOILER]

Karrin Blue
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So without much further ado, my thoughts on "Nomed Esir"
[SPOILER] So we get some more exploration into Vandal, his time with Atlantis and his partnership with Klarion. After the last episode established that his previous village was Atlantis, I had this sneaking suspicion that Klarion would be responsible for its sinking. What I didn't count on was that the original idea was Vandal's to begin with, and that he was aiming for destruction in a more surgical precision sort of way. Too bad Klarion's more of a sledgehammer sort of person.

I also didn't expect for the episode to just name drop the homo magi like that. Nor that he would have two of his family members be so involved with the Lords of Order. Now I've been reading some criticisms about how Vandal's not only the progenitor of the meta-gene but also of the homo magi and the Atlanteans as we know them in the show. But I'm just chalking that up to misremembering or misinterpreting plot points; for starters it was established way back in season 2 that the Reach hypothesized that the Atlanteans biology was shaped in no small part thanks to the meta-gene. And two, he's only responsible in that his grandson was chosen by the Lords of Order to help bring magic to humanity. Sometimes, I wonder about the average viewer.

So I theorized that the Child had come because the Lords of Chaos weren't happy about Klarion and his position within the Light, and that turns out to be disturbingly true here. Actually, this is a good way to show how Klarion is grown, destroying Atlantis twice over and Vandal hundreds of times merely for a giggle, to a much more focused (as much as that applies) asset. And then there's the Child who basically engages in wanton destruction out of her own morbid curiosity. This and the conversation Vandal has with Nabu really shows the difference between him and the Joker. Both are violent, crazy psychopaths that the villains try to aim in the right direction, but the Joker couldn't stand not being centerstage and Klarion is at least flexible enough to try and see opportunities that could be presented with his partnership with the Light. I'm pretty anxious to see what the heroes and villains are going to do to try and take down the Child.

That scene with M'gann and Em'ree was just heartbreaking, though unfortunately necessary. Without having a target for her vengeance, M'gann is just slipping into ennui and basically needed this childish spat in order to feel anything again. I have an uneasy feeling that Garfield is going to need the same thing in order to get out of his funk.

So we got a casual mention of the multiverse here, like I was caught off guard by how quickly Klarion mentioned Earth-17. For reference, that world is nuclear wasteland thanks to the atomic wars that took place in the 60's. Definitely Klarion's work. Also, I'm really digging the mythology that they've got here, reminds me of Ron E. Howard's Hyborian Age, also makes me wonder if the Lords of Chaos also sunk Lemuria and Mu. And I also didn't expect for Phantom Stranger to take the direct approach (as much as can be called direct) in aiding the heroes. But I do like his style of enigmatic mentorship. Oh, and what's the deal that bus? Is it incapable of collision even in the vastness of space? [/SPOILER]

Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

[SPOILER] Indeed! And even then I thought we were finally going to get the 'Beat Up a Beach' quip once we saw Child pulling up the ground at Roanoke and the water crushing in around it, lol [/SPOILER]
Phoenician
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."

[SPOILER] Well, that is probably the most blatant Gargoyles reference yet. And that's saying something. [/SPOILER]
Algae
Change! Change! O form of man! Free the prince forever damned!

ANTIYONDER - The moment in that part of "Pinocchio" that most stood out to me was when they were loading up the donkeys, and one of them starts crying in a human voice, whereupon the Coachman cries, "Hey, he's not ready yet! He can still talk!"

While on the subject of dark moments in early Disney movies - there's a scene in "Bambi" that hasn't gotten as much publicity as the death of Bambi's mother or the forest fire, but which could easily tie with them. The first time the hunters show up, all the animals take cover - but a bird (I think it was a s quail) gets more and more panicky until she can't take it any more, flies up - and is immediately shot.

Todd Jensen

I'll post my full thoughts later, right now I just want to say,
[SPOILER] I can't believe we got the Phoenix Gate, the Grimorum Arcanorum, and the Eye of Odin in one episode. That's crazy! [/SPOILER]

Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

Well as I feel it is an underrated dark aspect of a dark element in a Disney movie surprised Pinocchio doesn't get attention.

Barring the fantasy element of boys becoming literal jackasses, you have a villain kidnapping children and still carrying on after the main characters' escape with no indicator that he will be caught.

Antiyonder

Oh it was "To Kill a Mockingbird." I knew it was some famous film.
Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

MATTHEW - I remember seeing that story about Disney in a documentary on him I watched some years ago on PBS (though according to it, the movie Walt was talking about was "To Kill a Mockingbird"). It connected the story to how Walt, in the earlier part of his career, was always coming up with one innovation to storytelling after another (including such leaps as daring to make a full-length animated movie in the form of "Snow White", and furthermore wanting to make the audience weep as well as laugh), and in the latter part, his movies became more formulaic (though it pointed out that much of that was that he was focusing more on things like EPCOT and leaving the details of the movie-making to others). So the "new direction" tone of "Gargoyles" might well have appealed to him.
Todd Jensen

[SPOILER] Re: Klarion. Just to be clear, I think it's possible for a character to both be vicious and murderous AND broad and largely comic. And that specific moment to me was... confusing. Klarion wasn't QUITE such a joke prior to season 3, but that season 3 storyline is really dark too. [/SPOILER]
Alex (Aldrius)

No idea how Walt would react. I remember hearing that after seeing Citizen Kane he lamented that he'd never be able to make a movie like that. Now at the risk of comparing our favorite cartoon to one the most well-reviewed movies of all time, I would like to think at least he'd be pleased that the company was taking steps towards more mature story telling.

Of course during his career he stayed mostly in the more family friendly style of genres, there wasn't anything stopping him from having Disney try their hand at more adult properties other than business risks. Which is why my most cynical thought is that he'd be more delighted on how many companies and properties Disney has gobbled up in the past few decades.

Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

I just bought the comic and I love it.
des moines epoxy coatings - [roberthmcinturff at gmail dot com]

Fourth.

And after him, came next the chill December.
Yet he through merry feasting which he made,
And great bonfires, did not the cold remember,
His Saviour's birth his mind so much did glad:
Upon a shaggy-bearded Goat he rode,
The same wherewith Dan Jove in tender years,
They say, was nourished by th'Ideaean maid;
And in his hand a broad deep bowl he bears;
Of which, he freely drinks an health to all his peers.

Edmund Spenser, "The Faerie Queene".

Yesterday, by the way, was Walt Disney's birthday. I've sometimes wondered what Walt would have thought of "Gargoyles".

Todd Jensen

3rd

Even if the series bible is out of the question, I'd love to see an artbook or something.

Also, who else has been looping the new Spider-Verse trailer? I'm so excited, there's not really any theaters near me but I'm thinking of finding one to watch properly on a big screen (assuming I can find a relatively empty one, and all.)

Karrin Blue
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2nd

I know Greg is pretty tight lipped when it comes to his projects (for good reason, you never know when you'll get the chance to revisit ideas) but I'd still love to see the series bible for Spectacular Spider-Man.

Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

1st

Did some Christmas shopping, getting a friend of mine Into the Spider-Verse, plus The Spectacular Spider-Man Series Set on DVD.

Antiyonder