[SPOILER] So that was a really good episode I thought. I like that we're really getting into the grit with Zatara, Nabu and Zatanna.

Magic - I'm actually kind of amazed at how coherent this magic system is. It doesn't feel random or like the writer is cheating. Which is cool and actually pretty difficult to pull off. It's always kind of been strange to me that Zatanna has the imagery of a sleight of hand/stage magician, and my introduction to the character was the Batman: The Animated Series version, where she literally was just a REALLY GOOD illusionist. But that's really just an observation more than anything.

Magic visions - This on the other hand... can feel like a bit of a cheat. There's no real room of time to get to know these students individually, so we just put them through magical trials that explain their core conflict succinctly. It's... kind of warranted with how the show is set up (there really ISN'T time to get to know each one of these characters individually, but it also I think creates a barrier between the audience and the character in question. I feel like I KNOW more about each of these characters now, but because I really just got a crash course on who each one is, I can't say I feel more connected to them, or endeared towards them, like I've experienced something with them.

Vandal Savage - I think Greg is so good at weaving in mythologies and history into his storytelling. And it's really cool. Vandal Savage has the potential to be a really campy bad guy, and while I still think there's a bit of that camp factor, it's really neat to see his long, long history as well.

Religion - The religious aspect was... a little awkward. Religion is such a large topic, and it did feel a little tit for tat here. "We're showcasing Islam but ALSO showcasing Catholicism as well." Felt less like a natural revelation of the character honestly and more just like a point on a theme I guess. I think unless religion is going to be a main theme of a WHOLE season (the way it is in say, Fullmetal Alchemist) and you can really get in depth and explore it, it just always ends up feeling cheap to me randomly have a character go "BTW I'm Catholic". Even if the aesthetics of said moment are fairly powerful. So, I think this was a big risk in terms of the storytelling, I think it was well-intentioned, but I can't say it worked for me. I think the stuff with Khalid worked a little better, but even then was pretty shallow and a story I'd seen done before (and better). Again, I thought it was a good effort, and given the parameters of the episode it was done as well as it could be. There just was not enough time.

I really don't like the Child, they irritate the hell out of me, so I was hoping Teekl would put up more of a fight than that. [/SPOILER]
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Sun, Dec 19, 2021 2:20:48 pm EST from 65.95.87.63

ANTIYONDER - [The Friends of Humanity?

Unquestionably evil. Staged events to convince the public they are right, saw civilians as acceptable casualties and when they are arrested in their final appearance, Jubilee even laments that they only got arrested for property damage VS hate crimes.]

Sounds a lot like the depiction of the Quarrymen in "The Goliath Chronicles". And its head, I recall, was Eric Lewald, who was also on the FOX X-Men series.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sun, Dec 19, 2021 7:32:02 am EST from 70.176.217.135

That and also I look at the discussions on entertainment with these details in mind:

1. Yeah when it's brought up that older entertainment had politics and propaganda, the common response was it being all nuanced and not too preachy.

Except:

- Captain America Comics (That was the title.) didn't suggest that some Nazis are good or misunderstood people following order. No the stories suggested that the only good Nazi is a punched one.

- X-Men The Animated Series which was loved greatly might have had some Anti-Mutant people who came around like Senator Kelly, but The Friends of Humanity?

Unquestionably evil. Staged events to convince the public they are right, saw civilians as acceptable casualties and when they are arrested in their final appearance, Jubilee even laments that they only got arrested for property damage VS hate crimes.

Even Creed who had Freudian explanation really never got sympathetic depiction.

2. People who voice their objection to entertainment act like quality stories used to be the norm and that any pre-existing crap wasn't really crap.

I don't care for Ghostbusters 2016, but Bayformers 1-5 pun not intended, prime example that crap exists even when there is no concern for diversity or sensitivity.

Now I still need to see the Star Wars Prequels and Sequels, but the former use to be derided as crap, now it's treated as a set of underrated films.

So I could be wrong, but are they marginally better than the Disney made Sequels? Or just an attempt to claim that "Woke" free entertainment is synonymous with crap free entertainment.

3. I argue incidentally that the implementation of LGBT couples in the 2018 She-Ra merely changes what was subtextual to being more in the open: https://web.archive.org/web/20140425054053/http://prismcomics.org/display_print.php?id=1369

Basically OG She-Ra cast member and daughter of a Filmation founder came out in the 2000s and even stated that the company was the gayest place in town.

Even then, the OG series which really wasn't an example of unironically good entertainment suddenly gets treated as such.


That and I don't really believe the majority or any of them are strict on what they enjoy. Cause let's face it, we all tend to either consider a show to be good when it isn't or well we have guilty pleasures.
Antiyonder
posted @ Sun, Dec 19, 2021 1:52:05 am EST from 71.93.3.194

Yeah, I'll admit to some irritation at that, and at some of the phrasing choices used in some of the previous asks. The idea that faith can't be an interesting facet of a character, or that you can never talk about religion or what it means to people without being propaganda, really is quite close-minded.
Karrin Blue
.
posted @ Sun, Dec 19, 2021 1:22:13 am EST from 70.176.159.62

Jur> Especially cause trying to keep those who are say gay and trans from receiving normalization is propaganda in it's own right.

And because those against such normalization can't even give an airtight reason to view them as immoral or to keep them from being seen as normal.
Antiyonder
posted @ Sun, Dec 19, 2021 1:17:26 am EST from 71.93.3.194

I find it weird how if a show even discusses religion, it's accused of being propaganda. I also found it particularly grating how they asked "do you regret having brought this up?" It seems to fall under "we like our show!"
Jur - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sun, Dec 19, 2021 1:00:36 am EST from 69.254.133.77

Yup! And I think there's an ask somewhere back in the archives mentioning she and Zatara were practicing Catholics. And of course Giovanni has what I think is an Italian accent (and certainly an Italian name,) and we don't need to get into how dominant Catholicism is there.
Karrin Blue
.
posted @ Sat, Dec 18, 2021 9:47:20 pm EST from 70.176.159.62

So when it comes to the nature of faith, one thing that's easy to forget is that back in Season 1, Zatanna was introduced wearing what was probably a Catholic School uniform. So it stands to reason that her father is also one.
Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.
posted @ Sat, Dec 18, 2021 8:40:45 pm EST from 64.85.245.77

Just saw the ep!

[SPOILER] Ah, I love a good face-your-insecurities magic dimension episode. And this was great! Traci's experience in magic making her feel more like an imposter, but having the most time working through it with Zatanna, Khalid's brand-new-to-the-life doubts, Mary's frankly brutal beatdown with her own self-worth issues - it's a great way to see more of the characters we've just started getting to know. Mary's in particular - as you say, this isn't a rare failure state for the Shazam family, but seeing it paired with Mary constantly having to struggle against taking the easy way, and seeing all the ways she doesn't measure up to her 'perfect' self, was great.

And Khalid's struggle with his faith and expectations for what kind of life he thinks he should have was great. It's nice to see him not discount that his parents did work very hard to get him into med school, and that they did that out of love (and, since Khalid seems to be very good at medicine, that they presumably only settled on med school after he decided he wanted to do that, rather than them deciding for him.) And the call to prayer as his way of anchoring and grounding himself, and wishing peace on his other self while greeting him, was really beautiful.

Also... well, ok. I admit I had a little hesitancy to having Zatara recite the Lord's Prayer, but that's less to do with the episode and more being used to that sort of thing happening when Christianity is being treated as particularly special and meaningful, which wasn't actually the case here, and the overall lack of characters who get to talk about my religion that way, which isn't really a problem this episode was going to fix. Perhaps Whistle will show up on the Team someday, or if Bette ever becomes Flamebird we'll get a Kane Family Rosh Hashanah.

And... well, I don't believe Klarion's actually GONE gone. He's too squirrely to let this slow him down, and we have two more episodes to go. So who knows. And I'm pretty curious to see who Blood and the Stranger went off to collect! So that's fun. [/SPOILER]
Karrin Blue
.
posted @ Sat, Dec 18, 2021 8:22:17 pm EST from 70.176.159.62

You know I rarely check the unanswered questions but wow. I didn't think that level of vitriol for religions existed except in the worries of my old Baptist school teachers. I mean, every agnostic and atheist I've met has pretty much been ambivalent towards religion. But this almost comes across as parody.
Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.
posted @ Sat, Dec 18, 2021 6:06:50 pm EST from 64.85.245.77

Marvelman is borderline retarded. You probably noticed that by now from the questions he asks.

Also, when is G.W. gonna drag his unemployed ass back here and start answering some mothafukin' questions?
Greg Bishansky's deviated septum
posted @ Sat, Dec 18, 2021 4:41:27 pm EST from 156.146.62.42

"Mr. Fan and Mr. Disappointed" and "Marvelman," on the off chance you see this comment here...

You both probably already know this, but Ask Greg is NOT A FORUM. If you want to have a discussion on YJ's portrayal of religion in this Comment Room, or any other appropriate medium, you are certainly welcome to do so. But submitting questions into the queue directed at each other, rather than Greg, is not appropriate. There may not be a specific guideline against it, but...come on. That should be common sense.

As moderator, I'm currently weighing whether I'm going to let any posts apart from the initial one stand, and leaning toward no (and yes, I realize that I'm quite behind on approving questions in general...going to try and catch up when I go on vacation in a few days). But I'm hoping to nip this in the bud before it goes any further.

All this sets aside completely how I personally feel on the matter. Just trying to make sure we all keep things civil, and use Ask Greg as it was designed.

Thank you.
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"In sickness, and in health." - Eri Claus
posted @ Sat, Dec 18, 2021 5:16:57 am EST from 98.150.138.224

SUPERMORFF - I still think that that line in "Avalon Part One" may have given a certain medieval holiday some much-needed publicity.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Dec 17, 2021 7:45:31 pm EST from 70.176.217.135

SUPERMOFF> HA! Alasdair Beckett-King always brings the goods. I'd heartily recommed anyone who enjoyed that vid check out the rest of his channel.

MATTHEW> [SPOILER] TBH, I'd always kinda suspected the stories in Olympia's journal suffered from a bit of Unreliable Narrator Syndrome, given they were all presumably told to her by Vandar himself. So I'm not the least surprised to learn that daddy dearest omitted details that might cast him in a less than exalted light. [/SPOILER]
Algae
Change! Change! O form of man! Free the prince forever damned!
posted @ Fri, Dec 17, 2021 4:42:56 pm EST from 217.183.44.235

Please tell me people here have seen this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDXLxpQdIUQ

It's not Gargoyles or Young Justice or anything, but it also feels like something some people here might appreciate...
Supermorff
posted @ Fri, Dec 17, 2021 2:59:11 pm EST from 98.208.251.21

So my thoughts on "Teg Ydaer" [SPOILER] So this was a slower paced episode than I expected after the last one, I imagined that there would be a pressing need to expand the Sentinels of Magic, but I didn't think we'd get such an introspective story for this one.

It is nice to expand the story of the three proteges, and doing something a little different from the "face your fears" episode. We had been wondering why exactly the other Marvels had left so early on in the series and for now we have an answer for Mary. Honestly, I really like the explanation that she had become addicted to the powers of SHAZAM and grew arrogant to the point that she wasn't transforming back into normal form. And this is brilliant for the reason that it's actually a recurring problem in the Marvel series. I don't remember which comic it was, but there was a story where Billy basically became Captain Marvel full time. And of course there's the issue of Black Adam, the once noble ruler of Kahndaq corrupted by the power he posseted to the point that he never returned to being Teth-Adam.

This episode is ultimately about faith, faith in a higher power like what we have Khalid and Zatara. Faith in one's self like Traci and Mary. And faith in others like what Zatanna has and Nabu has lost. One the episode does well is show that there is a difference between stumbling and failing, and the growth that can come from both. Because both are needed to become better, and why I feel the Lords of Order and Fate are still stuck where they were eons ago.

One thing I'll admit I wasn't a fan of was the revelation that Starro came to Babylon because of Klarion and Vandal's machinations. To be perfectly honest, it's painting Vandal as much more of a villain and is undoing what I think was a big part of his complex nature. I remember Greg wrote that at one time Vandal was a hero and seeing that he saved the Earth thousands of years ago was something that added a lot of depth to his character. And just undoing that is just...eh.

And wow, Teekl is dead and Klarion may be out of the game for good. Considering how vile the character was I'm not exactly sad to see him go. But the abruptness of it was just shocking. Still he gave us one last gag with him creating a doorbell just to pester Dr. Fate. [/SPOILER]
Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.
posted @ Thu, Dec 16, 2021 10:07:07 pm EST from 64.85.245.77

Just saw Teg Ydaer and [SPOILER] I'm guessing Vandal never told Olympia THAT part.. [/SPOILER]
Algae
Change! Change! O form of man! Free the prince forever damned!
posted @ Thu, Dec 16, 2021 4:06:39 pm EST from 217.183.44.235

BISHANSKY - [SPOILER] I was amused by your mention of Attila the Hun as another of Vandal Savage's past aliases, alongside Genghis Khan, given my mention earlier this week of the same practice of "kill everyone who dug the grave" being used at Attila's death as at Genghis Khan's. Apparently Vandal Savage has been using that policy for some time. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Dec 16, 2021 8:19:45 am EST from 70.176.217.135

TODD> It wouldn't surprise me. [SPOILER] Snapping his eldest living child, Olympia's neck as both a "mercy" towards her ailing mind and to shut her up... he'd definitely do it to his personal guard. [/SPOILER]"

Also, here's a list of Vandal Savage's known aliases (At least at this time). [SPOILER] Varl'jat, Marduk, Sun Tzu, Atilla the Hun, Genghis Khan, Blackbeard the Pirate... [/SPOILER] ... at least at this time. I'm sure there are way more.

One of the things that I love about this version of Vandal is just how much thought and care is put into him and his story. In most iterations, he's a fifty-thousand year-old amoral sociopath who gets bored every few decades and decides to go out and conquer... because he lives to rule. That's it. There's not much to him. Greg and Brandon took a look at this guy and thought about what being 50,000 years old would actually mean and worked it into this guy. They really made it matter more than just making him a Bond villain with a gimmick.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Voices From the Eyrie]
"Welcome to Voices From the Eyrie, a Gargoyles podcast" - Shari
posted @ Wed, Dec 15, 2021 8:46:28 pm EST from 67.189.167.107

SPOILER] I've read also that everyone who worked on Genghis Khan's tomb was afterwards put to death. While it's a common feature for the period (the people who worked on the graves for Alaric the Goth and Attila the Hun met similar fates), from the Earth-16 perspective, I wonder if it was another example of Vandal Savage shutting mouths. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Dec 15, 2021 7:39:10 pm EST from 70.176.217.135

TODD JENSEN: "[SPOILER] I was rereading a book on the Middle Ages yesterday, and found a mention in it that Genghis Khan sired a lot of children - so many that he now has 16 million living descendants. That reminded me of the discussion last week about Vandal Savage having so many descendants - especially since Season Three revealed that Genghis Khan was one of his past identities. [/SPOILER]"

[SPOILER] I took one of those family DNA tests and I'm descended from Genghis Khan; which makes sense since I had ancestors were Ashkenazi Jews from the Ukraine and would have been there when Batu Khan (Temujin's grandson) and the hordes swept through. [/SPOILER]
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Voices From the Eyrie]
"Welcome to Voices From the Eyrie, a Gargoyles podcast" - Shari
posted @ Wed, Dec 15, 2021 5:08:34 pm EST from 67.189.167.107

[SPOILER] Interestingly, there seem to be conflicting accounts of the Great Khan's passing. Some sources saying he died in a hunting accident, others claiming he was felled by an arrow wound sustained during the conquest of Western Xia. Plenty wriggle room for SpecFic writers and the conspiratorially minded. [/SPOILER]
Algae
Change! Change! O form of man! Free the prince forever damned!
posted @ Wed, Dec 15, 2021 3:44:49 pm EST from 217.183.44.235

[SPOILER] It would be cool if Vandal ended up meeting another character who primarily knew him from one of his historical identities. Bonus points if they refer to him as Temujin. [/SPOILER]
Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.
posted @ Tue, Dec 14, 2021 11:27:29 pm EST from 64.85.245.77

[SPOILER] I think that's part of why he's Genghis in YJ - if memory serves, he's a few other common ancestor figures in human history too. It does make me wonder how the Earth-16 history books record Genghis' death, and the division of the Mongol empire. Did his sons know he wasn't really dead? I doubt it'll come up but it does make me wonder - though the real life Genghis' request to be buried in an unmarked grave would make it easier for Vandal to hide his survival. [/SPOILER]
Karrin Blue
.
posted @ Tue, Dec 14, 2021 10:34:07 pm EST from 68.9.91.142

[SPOILER] I was rereading a book on the Middle Ages yesterday, and found a mention in it that Genghis Khan sired a lot of children - so many that he now has 16 million living descendants. That reminded me of the discussion last week about Vandal Savage having so many descendants - especially since Season Three revealed that Genghis Khan was one of his past identities. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Dec 14, 2021 7:43:43 pm EST from 70.176.217.135

I guess I should at least put something on the forum before my usual Young Justice post for the week.
Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.
posted @ Tue, Dec 14, 2021 2:05:17 am EST from 64.85.245.77

Is it the nature of human kind to fear what they do not understand?
Kenosha Roof - [roofproskenosha at gmail dot com]
posted @ Mon, Dec 13, 2021 1:39:27 am EST from 65.31.89.51