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Gargoyles

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Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending May 15, 2022

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I think the dog is actually Esterhaus, oddly enough.

Although I guess it would be very in character for a dog to concern itself with people being careful out there.

Friendly CIA Spook
We learned only too late that man is a feeling creature- and because of it, the greatest in the universe.

If anyone is curious this clip really exemplifies what makes Frank Furillo such a cool character:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=No0H2TpuGT4

(The Chief of Police is running for Mayor so he keeps sending the Deputy Chief to the precincts to make sure everyone is behaving and making him look good, the officers on the hill are misbehaving to get their jobs done; is really all the context you need.)

I think the show might be on Hulu in The States, it's on Disney+ in Canada.

Alex (or Aldrius)
Check out my anime podcast "Two Gays One Episode" on Spotify or YouTube!

Is the Sapient Dog in an Exoskeleton Belker? Because I was thinking today how basically Belker is just a dog in a human suit.
Alex (or Aldrius)
Check out my anime podcast "Two Gays One Episode" on Spotify or YouTube!

Since it came up: For those who like Hill Street Blues and superhero media, give Alan Moore's Top Ten a try. Set in a city that served as a relocation community for America's superheroes following their service in World War II, where the only legal heroics come from the men and women (and one sapient dog in an exoskeleton) of the Tenth Precinct ("Top Ten"). The influence from HSB is very apparent; some characters are as near one-to-one analogues as they can be.

Let's be careful out there

Friendly CIA Spook
We learned only too late that man is a feeling creature- and because of it, the greatest in the universe.

[SPOILER] Yes, I enjoyed The Owl House too, and Amphibia. [/SPOILER]
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Thanks for the post, Aldrius. I can't comment much on it, since I never watched "Hill Street Blues", but I found it refreshing to see a "Gargoyles"-related question/comment (and a thoughtful one at that) in the "Ask Greg" queue.

I don't know how many people here are watching "The Owl House", but today's episode was another good one.

[SPOILER] I enjoyed the way they depicted King - now that he discovers he's a Titan, he realizes he'd rather have everyone treating him as just King, rather than a god-like entity. (And Hooty picks up on that, a sign that he's not as crazy as he appears. On the other hand, his misinterpretation of the "Wanted" posters....)

Probably the creepiest moment in the episode: the guard commenting how he's looking forward to the day after the Day of Unity - completely unaware that, if Emperor Belos/Philip gets his way, there's not going to be a "day after" - or at least, the guard - along with everyone else in the Boiling Isles - won't live to see it.

The really big surprise: I thought that Eda's request that Luz retrieve the box containing her toenails was just another of her comically eccentric moments - and then we find out what it really contained.... [/SPOILER]

Todd Jensen

Also I made a comment about Hill Street Blues to Greg and the nature of justice in Gargoyles that I think some folks here might find interesting:

Firstly, while searching for interviews and info on the series on YouTube, I found an old commercial for HSB which described Frank as "the Man in Charge". It made me laugh because it was so blatantly antithetical to who Frank is.

Frank is not in charge of anything. He's got a boss who is constantly on his case pushes him to keep up appearances all the while torpedoing him at basically every opportunity if it makes his job easier. Two lieutenants, one who wants to revolutionize the police force and change the way the whole city is run (i.e. "the bleeding heart liberal") -- the other a neo-fascist who wants to buy tanks and start wars on the street. (Incidentally I LOVE Howard Hunter, he is *hilarious* and super sympathetic despite this.) He has a girlfriend who is a public defender, so not only are her attitudes and sympathies just deeply anti-cop in pretty much every possible way, it's literally her *job* to oppose him to the best of her ability.

So in my mind, Frank is less the man in charge, and more so the great appeaser or compromiser. He has to balance all these forces in his life, while maintaining his authority and making sure it all doesn't implode in on itself. And he does it very well, largely because he is so extremely compassionate and *not* the "Man in Charge".

Which is largely, especially in the first season, how I think of Goliath. I rewatched the first season not *too* long ago, and one thing that struck me is how much I enjoyed one of Goliath and Elisa's first meetings where they discuss human justice. Something to the effect of Goliath questioning who decides what's just and Elisa tells him "[The people]" and Goliath says "the humans decide" and the conversation is never REALLY followed up on. Goliath's decision to become a modern-day superhero of sorts ends up being more based on just his search for a purpose, and just doing what *feels* right. But I suppose in my head I can pretend that Elisa and Goliath continued to have conversations about modern judicial practices off screen and Goliath liked what he was hearing (or I imagine he WOULD like it).

What interests me, though, is that this is *largely* what HSB is about. Both explicitly and implicitly. There are stories that discuss these issues and sometimes the characters just blatantly talk about them. And what's cool about HSB to me is how *highly* critical it is of the police, primarily as an institution. And how critical it is of the justice system.

This isn't *really* present in Gargoyles as much. The cops in the show are generally extremely fair people, and though there are the occasional token mention of the system being "flawed" this isn't really demonstrated. Which is totally fine, but it is sort of interesting to me.

Incidentally I think that element was somewhat lost after Steven Bochco left the show, and Dennis Franz became a lead. The show was still a great show, but man did it get silly.

Anyway, I don't know if I really came to a cohesive point there but I did wanna share my thoughts on the show and wanted to thank you again for (indirectly) recommending it.

Alex (or Aldrius)
Check out my anime podcast "Two Gays One Episode" on Spotify or YouTube!

[SPOILER] I did ask Greg if the Sinestro stuff from GL:TAS was canon to Young Justice.

With 1046 questions to go, we should find out the answer in... two years? :P But honestly, it really is a spoiler request, the only givens from GL:TAS being canon are Razer, Hal and Kilowoh's existence and that Aya was on the ship IMO. Just depends on how generous Greg's feeling probably.

I IMAGINE we'll actually find out more about Sinestro and the state of the Green Lantern Corps when Lor-Zod goes to Oa next episode. [/SPOILER]

Alex (or Aldrius)
Check out my anime podcast "Two Gays One Episode" on Spotify or YouTube!

[SPOILER] So with the appearance of Soranik Natu, it got some wheels in my head turning. So with GLTAS being canon-adjacent to Young Justice, it made me wonder how things have gone since the end of that series. In the show, Sinestro is still part of Green Lanterns and isn't evil...yet. But after being ousted from his dictatorial position, he was replaced with Katma Tui, and then with Soranik after Katma was fridge'd.

I wonder if things are similar here, though I doubt Katma was killed off to give John Stewart something to angst about (that's not really Greg's style). But another thing was that in the comics Soranik was the one to recruit Iolande to the Corps. But in the show, Iolande was recruited in far earlier, makes me wonder if Iolande was the one to recruit her in this universe. [/SPOILER]

Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

[SPOILER] Could be the beginning of an interesting new character. The show is good at introducing those. [/SPOILER]
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Oh yep, my mistake. [SPOILER] Also, yeah I don't think the person in the Kaiser-Thrall is anyone we know either in the show or im DC generally. I'm just hopeful that they can work out communication and start working on getting him out of there. [/SPOILER]
Karrin Blue

[SPOILER] Minor correction, Dru-Zod's wife is Ursa Zod, voiced by Vanessa Marshall. Faora Hu-Ul is also in the group, voiced by Denise Boutte. [/SPOILER]
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[SPOILER] Î don't think the Kaiser Thrall is anyone we know, but it could be a character from the comics.

I actually think this episode justified a lot of the storytelling they've been doing this season. Our patience was really rewarded. I like that Greg's team is really willing to mess around with story structure too. [/SPOILER]

Alex (or Aldrius)
Check out my anime podcast "Two Gays One Episode" on Spotify or YouTube!

And so it begins...
[SPOILER] I gotta say, running away to the circus every few years is some classic Grayson material and I'm glad to see it here. He just sometimes up and ditches! And there's a kind of grief-logic in him trying to find comfort by doing acrobatics at Haly's. Also, I loved the cameo from the family Longshadow, nice to see they're doing good.

It was also cool to see that Bart didn't just agree - he knows how to use his speed and he came prepared. And none of Lor's powers but heat vision would've been quick enough on the draw. Too bad, though.

I also really liked the putting the mystery together! Finally, everyone getting together to share their ideas! And the Team all coming back together - I've been pondering on the season so far, trying to marshall my thoughts for a post-finale wrapup, and one of the things I wanted to bring up is, sure, it's great to see a focus on the s1 heroes, but by putting them each in their own mini-arcs we miss out on the relationship of the Team as a whole; I still wish we'd gotten more of that overall (and I kinda wonder if, if we get a S5 that continues the mini-arc format with other characters, it might be more about small duos and trios instead of individual heroes), but seeing the Team come back together was great. Even the return of little bits like Artemis helping Dick get back up after the Klarion fight, or Zatanna and Rocket seeming to be especially close. I hope we get more of that - I'd love to see Kaldur take back command again, or Artemis (since she IS Team leader still.)

Also... oh, poor Conner still thinks Kal's death is real. His starting to piece his memory together is good, and I liked Zod and Faora's reactions - and how Zod says that he is the House of Zod, noy that he's in it. I also really liked the teeny tiny gasp from Phantom Girl during that discussion - she's playing dead pretty well considering the circumstances, and I can't wait for her to explain her half.

It was also interesting that Dru and Faora only had ten year sentences. Of course that's a long time but still shorter than I'd expect for the betrayals that usually get them tossed in. Interested to see what their crimes even were.

And finally... well, one, I'm very proud to have guessed that was Soranik before the credits named her. Of course there's not many red-skinned female Lanterns who'd be doing a medical exam, but I love seeing her. And - ugh, that poor kid. But if I had to pick a Lantern to, uh, extract, a kid from an Apokaliptan torture cube, salvage as much as possible, and get them set up with a prosthetic body, I'd bet on Soranik. [/SPOILER]

Karrin Blue

[SPOILER] An interesting reversal, Halo has a New Genesis spirit living in a human body. The Kaizer-Thrall is Apokoliptan technology possessing a human mind. [/SPOILER]
Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

It's Friday the 13th! May the spiritual entities biddable through various means lesser minds would dismiss as superstition spare us, every one

I've seen a lot of contention over the format of Phantoms but now, having been through all of it, I think it worked rather well. I could be reading too much into it but I think I've noticed that each arc had its own little genre shift. Gotta love a setting that can about-face and just be anything it wants that week.

[SPOILER] So now I suppose we have to guess who's/what's inside the Kaizer Thrall, exactly. Is it possible that it's the product of those experiments on Mother Boxes we saw in Markovia? I don't think we ever learned what they were trying to do when they dissected that Mother Box that ultimately became Violet. [/SPOILER]

Friendly CIA Spook
We learned only too late that man is a feeling creature- and because of it, the greatest in the universe.

[SPOILER] I have a feeling like there might be a scene in a future episode where one of the Phantom Zone prisoners can't warn one of the others telepathically like they're used to and it's played for drama. [/SPOILER]
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[SPOILER] This episode was a nice release. It was kind of tense that the cast was being kept apart in the way they were and it was a HUGE breath of fresh air to see them all coming back together again. There's just something familiar about it, the banter feels more authentic, the characterizations are easier, there's less to explain.

I thought it was a bit silly how quickly Nightwing deduced a lot of the mystery. Plus I don't even know how necessary it was in terms of the narrative. All they needed to know was Conner was in the Phantom Zone and that they need to find a way into the Phantom Zone. Plus all the best stuff about the mystery was them piecing together clues. That was really compelling. All the security footage, piecing it together, putting it all up on a massive board. Was really cool. I feel like there had to be some better clue to connect Bart to the Bioship and Krypton, that was the only thing that really fell flat for me. Besides the Klarion fight, which could have been entirely side-stepped by Zatanna just choosing not trusting him. But it added a bit of excitement to the episode, seeing the original team all fighting together.

The Dan Danger stuff was great. And jeez does that costume leave NOTHING to the imagination. Also really like the new Nightwing costume. There was a lot of fanservice in this episode. I'm ASSUMING Dick and Barbara are in some kind of open relationship and he's not just hitting on other girls, I don't get the impression they broke up. I also like to think Dick is bi, that pat on his bare back was... a bit significant, but I don't know if that's what they were going for here (I'm pretty sure it isn't, I'm probably just being thirsty).

Otherwise this was kind of just... a bridge. I look forward to next week when Ms. Frizzle joins the Justice League finally. [/SPOILER]

Alex (or Aldrius)
Check out my anime podcast "Two Gays One Episode" on Spotify or YouTube!

[SPOILER] No kidding. I hope this leads into some kind of fix next episode. [/SPOILER]
B
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[SPOILER] So that was probably the most horrific credit sequence of the series so far. [/SPOILER]
Algae
Ibid

Incidentally, I did as a reminder make a Bonkers article for Gargwiki:

https://gargwiki.net/Bonkers

Antiyonder

[SPOILER] Well, at least when Zod comes out of the Phantom Zone he'll be under the false impression that Superman is dead. [/SPOILER]
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Not much to say about this one but I'll give my thoughts on episode 22 "Rescue and Search" all the same.

[SPOILER] So Dick's been doing the occasional moonlighting on the flying trapeze, makes sense. One of the few times we've seen him really happy and at ease was the brief time he was undercover as Dan Danger. And I'm sure Jack Haley is always happy to have a member of the circus family show up. But we get straight to the detective work right away, and I'm honestly glad we have the members of the Team show up to help piece together this mystery. While I understand that this season has shown each character's journey and how life can take them on separate paths, it really hasn't felt the same without them together in some way.

Trying to cheat your way into the Zone using Klarion was admirable but predictably it didn't go well. What's scary is that while the Witch Boy may be completely out there, he's really good at picking up new tricks in this case knowing when Dr. Fate is out. It's a little frightening just how frequently our heroes have only survived him due to sheer luck.

The good news is Lor hasn't learned that the Bioship is equipped with a device for time traveling. The bad news is that he's taking that murderous rage of his to Oa. And the worse news is that Apokolips is surpassing even the Light in its exploitation of youth. Taking a child's mind and putting it into a machine? I'm getting some serious Metal Gear Rising vibes.

So we have the introduction of Soranik Natu? Neat, I wonder if her dear dad Sinestro has created his Corp yet. Makes me wonder if the last Green Lantern is Kyle Rayner, dude's due to be introduced.

I doubt that Greg planned for that memoriam for Ed Asner when he started working on this episode. But I am glad it was included. [/SPOILER]

Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

Ah, I see - and I do remember "Bonkers". (I recall Greg Weisman once saying that Bonkers' partnership with Miranda Wright had some influence on the gargoyles' partnership with Elisa.)
Todd Jensen

By the Roger Rabbit approach I mean that these aren't characters who live in their own specific universe, they're actors working in the "real world."

Bonkers did the same thing, if anyone remembers that show.

Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

I'd say it outdoes the Roger Rabbit approach by mixing two different animation styles with live-action; in "Roger Rabbit", all the animation was 2-D.
Todd Jensen

I saw the trailer for that some time ago, the decision to go the Roger Rabbit approach is...odd.
Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

Disney + is coming out with a movie adaptation of "Rescue Rangers" (and apparently an odd one from the visuals perspective; Chip's done in 2-D animation, Dale in 3-D. I am not making this up).
Todd Jensen

The poster isn't showing up in the last link, but you can see it here:

https://www.supermanhomepage.com/sixth-story-arc-poster-image-for-young-justice-phantoms/

Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

Apparently the leaks are just the titles that was found out from Google Montreal and they are just the titles and given the strange loglines I don't see how we could be spoiled except for the obvious by now first letters of the episode titles being confirmed.
Kevin - [kevin dot nuckols at yahoo dot com]
Kevin Nuckols

[SPOILER] I think Jason's more in danger of being manipulated by Talia than by Ra's right now. [/SPOILER]
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ANON> Please refrain from posting "leaks" here, or at least use the spoiler tags.

In other news, poster for the final arc just dropped...

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/youngjustice/images/5/53/Young_Justice_Phantoms_Arc_6.png/revision/latest?cb=20220509190704

[SPOILER] My own guess is the season end sequal hook will involve the Legionarries returning to the 31st century to find they've averted Zod's galactic take over only to inadvertently bring about some new unrealted dystopia. Like maybe they end up in the Kamandi talking animals future and season 5 will be about preventing that? [/SPOILER]

Algae
Ibid

Or consider, yknow, not doing that.
Karrin Blue

Ego et Superego
Zenith and Abyss
Over and Out
Death and Rebirth

Are the titles of the last episodes. I'll post a rundown of the leaks later.

Anonymous

Hm... Well, all the hooks so far have been for space-related plots. So I'll guess that it's going to be more of that. Let's see... [SPOILER] One, I think that no matter what, Zod isn't going to be completely defeated, and will probably escape with some of his forces (potentially, but hopefully not, including Conner.) In that case, I can see him deciding to flex his diplomatic muscles and try to ally with the Thanagarians - we know they're interested in Earth, but they don't seem to be very savvy on galactic soft-power politics, since they didn't know Nth Metal was only common on Thanagar. So perhaps they wouldn't know or care about Zod's history. Alternately, I could see him going to one the Gordanians/Citadel/Tamaran trifecta and S5 bringing Starfire into the plot, adapting her political-prisoner backstory.

If that's not the last shot of the season... yknow, I feel like the hook might be Kara? We know they've wanted to use her for ever, so maybe she'll be the teaser. Maybe the last episode has some kind of chaos in the Phantom Zone, rifts opening up every which way, zonequakes galore, rocks and such being dumped out to make the battlefield more complicated for our heroes in the fight, and the last shot of the episode is of her pod, dumped out in the middle of nowhere.

(Incidentally, if/when Kara appears, I'm still hoping for her to get adopted by Conner and M'gann. They seem like the kind who'd adopt kids in general, since who knows if they'd even be able to have viable children with 3 species' DNA in the mix (yes, I know that's not really a concern in comics, but still), and Kara's certain to have a boatload of trauma she'd need help with.

((Speaking of, and this is even more a shot in the dark, but: I'm half expecting Lor-Zod to die at some point, tragically, and for the present-day Lor, the one who'll be born 'now' if the Phantom Zone gang escape and stay escaped, to be adopted as a toddler by M'gann and Conner, and raised, well, better. That'd be a neat way of dovetailing the villainous and heroic Lors from the comics and bring things full circle, I think.))

If it's not something in space... Ok, at this point who even knows if Jason is going to be dealt with in the last arc - I think he could be, two paralleling 'lost brothers' assumed to be dead but actually without memory and being manipulated by older men with a grudge against their families and their dads (well, Dru-Zod's grudge is going to be with Jor, of course, and Ra's thing about Bruce is generally weird, but it's probably close enough), and if one is rescued but the other isn't that could be good for a 'we need to go and rescue our brother, but for tonight we have a brother back and we're going to celebrate that victory' closer - but if he isn't then the hook might be him coming to Gotham or something. Last shot might be him in the classic Red Hood getup, maybe, the jacket and the helmet and so on.

And if not that... Well, just because I think they're cool and I want to see them, maybe something to do with the elemental Parliaments. Listen, I know they're obscure, but I'd love to see a dive into the magical elemental politics of DC. Surely by now we must have heroic teenagers for all the elements. Also, I have a friend who's wanted Tefe Holland to show up on the show for ages. This isn't terribly likely, I think, but it could be fun so who knows.

(There's also a chance Fury!Mary might show up, but that seems likely to be left for next season, or we'll see her in the closing montage for a moment. Not the closing hook.) [/SPOILER]

Karrin Blue

So with the last arc for the 4th season about to start, and not that we have a working comment room again, I'd like to ask.

What do you think the hook for the next season might be?

Season 1 concluded with the mystery of the missing Leaguers and the unaccounted sixteen hours.

Season 2 revealed the alliance between the Light and Apokolips (that one in no small part helped spur renewal).

Season 3 had the reveal with the Legion of Superheroes.

So now I wonder what the fourth season will end with. I have to imagine that it will need something to top all previous reveals, but I'm not really in a hurry to guess because my guesses have all been way off the mark.

Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

Ha ha, nice find, Todd.
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Sorry for the double post, but I discovered this site:

https://kidskonnect.com/fun/gargoyle/

Take a look at who appears on a couple of those worksheets.

Todd Jensen

So how *did* the site go down? (Mind you, I'm just relieved to have it back.)
Todd Jensen

Ah good to be back, if in a slightly unconventional way.
Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

Not the first skipped rollover for this Comment Room, but yes, a big thanks to Gore to anyone else that keeps this ship seaworthy :-)
Phoenician
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."

Thanks for your hard work! And huh, I see! I didn't know how the rollover got scheduled, so I was curious.
Karrin Blue

The rollover is scheduled. s8 was down during that period, so it was skipped.
Gorebash

Test, test?

(Looks like we're back up, but without a rollover to the new week?)

Karrin Blue

Test, test?

(Looks like we're back up, but without a rollover to the new week?)

Karrin Blue

> Matthew:
[SPOILER] OK, so, I can see that as an interpretation of the situation with Orion, and I'd believe it was the intended one (it'd make sense if that was what ASAN signed off on), but I don't think the actual show, the text, makes that distinction. All of it is grouped together, and given how incredibly fraught the issue is, and how autistic people, in and out of fiction are very frequently framed or explicitly said to be violent and dangerous because they are autistic, because of stress responses like meltdowns, and how often that belief leads to autistic people being murdered, I think that's something a show needs to be extremely careful throwing around or even getting close to. For goodness' sake, some people still think autism is caused by demon possession, and abuse their kids accordingly in the name of 'exorcising' them. Doing anything close to that makes me pretty twitchy, especially in the absence of other autistic major characters who are just heroes and people. Same with the 'it makes you a hero' thing - there is so much rhetoric around 'overcoming' autism and how it's something to struggle with, that you have to struggle past to do your best neurotypical impression and be provisionally recognized as a person with feelings and thoughts, that even though I generally like characters struggling to be better than their worst natures, connecting that worst nature in any way to autistic coding makes me very nervous. It's too close to real, ableist talking points that are used to hurt real people, without any autistic characters who refute those talking points being movers and shakers in the plot.

The mental trap - again, I could believe that the stuff Lightray was saying was Orion's insecurities, but if that's so then I think it could have been made more explicit, considering Rocket was saying similar stuff of her own accord earlier. And I have a hard time finding that 'affirmation' sweet when, again, I think that 'seeing him' should be the absolute bare minimum for anyone, especially a hero of the Justice League. And structurally, I take some umbrage with it putting all the power and agency in the situation on Rocket's side - again, this probably wasn't something on the writers' mind, but given how often disabled people need to perform some kind of sympathetic, vulnerable role to abled people with power over them to get help, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

And third... Look, I'll admit a lot of my bitterness with this subplot is that it's a 'character starts out ignorant and judgemental and Grows' plot at all. We didn't have a story arc where someone is mean to Violet for being nonbinary, they're accepted by everyone immediately. We haven't gotten any plots where characters of color are judged as less competent by white characters, Kaldur and Artemis have been highly respected main cast members for ages. But when it's autism, that's when we need to four episodes watching Rocket drag her feet on realizing that dealing with her attitude isn't
walk in the park for autistic people either? Especially when this is the most consecutive screentime she's had in the entire runtime of the show. It reminds me a bit of some of the issues around Violet being injured and killed all the time in s3 - it was intended to show that they would always come back, but the effect was making it seem like they were less skilled than their teammates who avoided danger much more easily, and like their pain and injury was more 'acceptable' to the audience, recalling a long history in media of black and brown characters' pain being shown more luridly than white characters'. Is showing heroes being accepting of all differences important, except when those differences are having another neurotype? That might not have been the intent of this arc, but it's not something I can ignore either.

... and, to go to a lighter topic, I just realizes: Zod assumes Conner is able to pick up the boulders so quickly because he's got an incredible will and inherent strength - and he does, but that's not why he can move the boulders. As Zod said, everything is happening because they believe they can do it; when Faora or Ursa or Non lift rocks, they're working against an entire lifetime of memories on Krypton of having human-level strength; being truly able to believe they could move boulders must have taken significant effort. But Conner has spent his entire life in yellow sunlight, and has been expecting himself to have super strength for his entire existence. He's not adapting quickly to the belief-rules of the Phantom Zone, he just has always known in his bones that he can haul huge heavy things around easily. [/SPOILER]

Karrin Blue

I have a book titled "Shakespeare For Every Day of the Year", and today's entry mentioned that Britain's only satellite - launched in 1971 - was originally going to be named Puck, but then they became nervous about the possibility of its name getting mispronounced and named it Prospero instead. That reminded me of Greg Weisman mentioning similar fears about Puck's name (to the point where they considered renaming him Robin Goodfellow instead, but finally decided to stick with Puck). Oh, and the entry appropriately brought up Puck's line (which they probably had in mind when they were thinking of naming the satellite after him) "I'll put a girdle round about the earth in forty minutes".
Todd Jensen

Have to disagree on a few points, Karrin.
[SPOILER] Orion's autistic coded traits aren't treated or thought of as the result of being Darkseid's son. Rather he treats his berserk rage as a part of his heritage. But the less obvious traits: his curt way of speaking, lack of social cues, irritable reaction to what he believes are trivial things (as seen during the negotiations) and of course not feeling the need to look at people when speaking to them are entirely his own. The other New Gods understand this, and by the end of the arc, Rocket is beginning to understand this.

Now personally, I took it that Orion and Rocket were sharing the same mental trap and "Lightray's" comment "He will always be a monster" was meant to play into Rocket's fears and Orion's insecurities. Locking them in a never-ending stalemate fueled by Orion's emotional breakdown and Rocket shielding herself with...let's say ignorance until I can find a better word to describe it. It's only when Rocket let's go and gives that affirmation can the two of them break free from the mind prison.

I'd argue that Orion and Amistad's autism isn't a problem for Rocket to overcome and to learn to tolerate them. Rather her unwillingness to face the fact that they have their own struggles and their own way of dealing with them was the problem for her to overcome. Noble, Lightray and Vykin, they understand and are quick to call her out on her judgments. It may not be original, but I don't think it's as trite as you make it out to be and definitely not the inspiration porn to levels of "Rain Man" or "i am sam." [/SPOILER]

Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

[SPOILER] Well, that settles the timeline question. The Phantom Zone prisoners don't know Krypton is dead and think Conner can tell them about its status once his memories are back. They haven't experienced being let out in the 30th century. [/SPOILER]
B
B

Well, that happened
[SPOILER] Finally great to have everyone on the same page, more or less. And hey, that giant bell that's been hanging in the tower finally gets rung! Zatanna managing to actually wear down an immortal is also great. Nabu has seen civilizations rise and fall, but she got him to crack in what, a day? And that last line - well, process of elimination said it had to be him, but honestly the real answer is so weird I'm not sure the Bat-standard detecting methods are going to be much help. 'A guy from the future came back to murder my friend but actually another person from the future teleported him to interdimensional prison' - at that point Occam's Razor is dead.

Also, thank goodness, all the time machines are broken. And now the heroes need to find a zone projector too - maybe it'll be a race for one? And Phantom Girl being woken up... that'll make some things happen. I'll bet Zod's little cult tries to force her out to die, and Conner regains his memories by defending her.

Poor Tomar-Re - at least he got a good fight scene before he died. I admit I was tricked there - I assumed purple!Forager was going to die (in my defense, 'it would be an awfully big adventure' always makes me think of the Peter Pan line 'to die will be an awfully big adventure') and Tomar-Tu would take his father's ring. Which of course was what we were supposed to think.

(Sidenote - I was kind of disappointed that Rocket, who had that 'I hate the US prison system' line in the radio play, was on board with the Kryptonian prisoners remaining in a torture dimension indefinitely? Even though Dru-Zod is bad, I still think the future government had the right idea letting everyone out - the problem was probably a failure to notice the cult-like sway Dru-Zod has over his followers and help people out of it.)

And finally, the resolution of the Amistad plot... yeah, this is pretty unsatisfyingly trite to me. This is pretty much the most basic way to have an autistic-kid-prop for a neurotypical character's storyline. Everything is about Rocket's struggling to accept that autistic people continue to be people, we don't even get Orion's perspective during the mind attack. In the end, Rocket seeing him isn't even trying to understand his perspective, just stopping thinking of him as a complete monster, which should be the most basic step there is. Not to mention all of Orion's autistic coded traits are still thought by everyone to be because he's the son of Darkseid, or outright are, and have to be struggled with instead of accepted as a perfectly valid way to go through the world. That 'it makes you a hero' sounds right out of a thousand inspiration porn blogposts. And because it's not that original, it's not that offensive, I guess - it's been done a million times, YJ isn't an outlier and I guess having an accurate prop is better than an inaccurate one, but a prop is always a prop, not a character, and I was really hoping we might get an autistic character whose autism wasn't there to be a problem our neurotypical heroes have to go on a personal journey to be able to tolerate and who didn't end the story by ~inspiring~ them. In the end it just feels like there's an autistic equivalent to the Madonna-whore concept of feminist readings, where you're either incomprehensible (and either a danger or inconvenience accordingly) or an inspiration up on a pedestal. And again, YJ didn't invent these tropes, it's certainly probably in the upper 10% or so of stories that take this structure - but it's very disappointing that it's doing that structure at all when I was hoping for an autistic hero. This doesn't feel like representation for autistic members of the audience, it feels like representation for neurotypical people who are responsible for autistic children that they call their 'favorite person' or 'best buddy' or 'little hero.' Hopefully if there's a fifth season we'll actually get an autistic character who gets to drive the plot, or who at least gets accepted as having a completely reasonable way of living without having to go to space first.
[/SPOILER]

Karrin Blue

Well this title doesn't inspire the best of feelings. Here's some quick thoughts on episode 21 "Odyssey of Death!"

[SPOILER] Well I guessed wrong in that we'd see the release of the Cult of Zod this episode, in fact practically nothing went right for the villains this episode, though not without heavy cost.

It's been a while since we've seen a Kryptonian rage, I was concerned about Lor and the fact that he's been obviously conditioned to worship his father. But shooting Tomar-Re in the back even while he prevents the Promethean from killing all of them? That's pretty low. Still at least Tomar was able to go out knowing he'd saved this world, and that he has a worthy successor.

Now this is just from a quick search, but I haven't found any information on a Green Lantern originating from New Genesis, New God or not. So Forager getting the ring would be quite the groundbreaker. I'm actually a little relieved that Forager will be separated from Forager because of the new Lantern duties, with the Romeo and Juliet quotes I was worried one of them would die. Which would make it the third time Jason Spisak has played a DC character in a romance that seemingly ends with death.

"Thank you for seeing me." Wow. That stuck with me more than I thought it would. I guess that's something that I needed more than anything growing up. For someone to see who I was beyond, in-spite of, and was molded by the Spectrum. For Rocket to have that moment of clarity, even though she's been distrustful and disdainful of Orion since nearly the beginning and recognize who he is, it's just monumental. I actually really like the change at the end. At the start of the arc, she was disappointed by Amistad's hand pats and now she accepts it. She doesn't need to force society's social cues on him, she just recognizes his own. That those pats mean, "I love you" and that's all that's needed.

So, the final arc is upon us and instead of what I predicted, it looks like Dick or at least someone in the Bat-family is going to search for Conner. The Cult has failed to escape the Phantom Zone but with Phantom Girl now awoken, things are going to get complicated. A very ticked off Lor now has his hands on another time traveling machine, but may not be aware of it. And there's no telling what's going to happen with Lor and M'comm's alliance of convenience. And what that'll mean for their partnership with Apokolips. [/SPOILER]

Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

Oh I see

She's a big fan of the movie Heathers. *roll on snare drum*

Friendly CIA Spook
We learned only too late that man is a feeling creature- and because of it, the greatest in the universe.

It's what Terry Pratchett calls a pune.

BTW if anyone's currently looking for Gargoyles fanfics, particularly ones centering the Ishimura Clan, I heartily endorse TimeDancer: It Takes Two to Tengu and Orochi by our very own Chip Coffin and Masterdramon respectively. you can find both of them on FF.net...

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/14069799/1/Timedancer-It-Takes-Two-to-Tengu

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/14074785/1/Orochi

Algae
"People get built different. We don't need to figure it out, we just need to respect it." - Princess Bubblegum

I can't believe I missed the fact that Black Canary's flower shop is called, "Sherwood Florist."
Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.