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The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending July 17, 2022

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I just got a vision of, in the Gargoyles Universe, Castaway claiming that Broadway stole forty cakes - but I suspect he'd be far more likely to accuse the gargoyles of eating humans (or trying to) than stealing backed goods. "They ate forty humans. Now that's really terrible."
Todd Jensen

Stealing 40 cakes? Probably not.
Using baked goods as vessels to smuggle precious materials, dangerous compounds, or other illegal goods?
I wouldn't put it past him.
And that would be terrible.

When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

Tood Jensen> Yep the context you describe is true. I just like to think maybe it could be something to try even if not as directly depicted in the Superdictionary.

From what I know about that incident, it seems to have been come up with back in the days when Lex Luthor was depicted as a public super-villain rather than an outwardly respectable businessman who's covering up his shady deals - so I doubt it's true of the "Young Justice" version of him.
Todd Jensen

Well, I went ahead and asked about the 40 cakes and if Lex stole them in YJ continuity.

If nothing else [SPOILER] Greg could use the meme in a Radio Play. That said, think anyone in Gargoyles or TSSM would do such a horrible crime? [/SPOILER].


Thanks for the latest review, Algae.
[SPOILER] Jai like most of the kids has a path of his own. Not giving anything away just yet. [/SPOILER]

When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

MATTHEW> De nada. I'd definitely recommend DC Legacies to anyone who's caught up on Phantoms and Targets but still looking for something YJ adjacent.

Speaking of Targets...

[[SPOILER] I'm guessing the "Perdita" at the end of issue 2 is really Everyman. [/SPOILER]

'nuff said

It only struck me afterwards that we were discussing Parisian gargoyles on Bastille Day.
Todd Jensen

On vacation.
Odin Horus Bavarois
Proverbs 4:9

[SPOILER] Oh, I am more than ready for more Flashback of Notre Dame. Call it a case of self-indulgence, if you will d: [/SPOILER]
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."

MATTHEW - Ah, thanks for explaining that to me.
Todd Jensen

Todd> [SPOILER] The Clan was briefly seen in one comic panel that was used to show some of the Team members in Paris. Much like the Eye, the Grimorum and the Gate were shown during Zatanna's arc, it was a quick little reference. [/SPOILER]

On another note, with my computer working again I was able to publish the second chapter of DC Legacies. Which you can find here: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/14095367/2/DC-Legacies

Once again, I have to thank Algae for the proofread and feedback. Of course, if anyone else would like to offer their thoughts I'd be willing to share sneak peaks before each chapter is published.

When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

[SPOILER] So this Clan was off-stage, mentioned but not seen? [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen

[SPOILER] I presume they're members of the Resemble but are Legally Distinct Clan of Paris. [/SPOILER]
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

[SPOILER] Is this Clan the one from Greg's "take-off gargoyles" meeting Captain Atom? If it is, I'm a bit surprised that they turn out to exist in Earth-16, though as long as they're a DC creation, I can imagine them getting in - and Greg might not have resisted the temptation to bring them back. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen

Are you sure they relocated, Matthew? Perhaps [SPOILER] that Clan has always been in Paris...say, atop Notre Dame, waiting for a silver man to kiss his betrothed on the last full moon of February? [/SPOILER]
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

Forgot that the latest issue of Young Justice Targets came out this week on DC Infinite. Here's some quick thoughts on the latest issue, "Ominous Tidings."

[SPOILER] So there's definitely more going on with this kidnapping than meets the eye, especially with that ominous look Perdita, or maybe "Perdita" gave at the end. I do like the mystery that building up, like why Ollie and Dinah were undercover as Dr. Roquette's assistant, and with them currently in a coma that's not going to be answered soon.

Baazovi's presence in all this has me worried about this whole situation, we already know that he's using Markovia's Infintors as a secret task force for Markovia's (or rather the Light's) interests. But I have this bad feeling that this recent kidnapping is going to put Markovia and Vlatava in increased danger. Perdita's going to be at the marrying age soon and I have this feeling that Baazovi is going to use this "rescue" as the perfect opportunity to bring the two countries closer together and add another chunk of land as the Light's influence.

Still, it looks like we're going to see the Team in action, something that was missing in all of Season 4, so that will be cool. And these flashbacks are certainly interesting, I'm curious to see where they're going beyond the fact that Perdita's been in danger a lot over the years.

Oh, and the Clan's relocated to Paris. Wonder how they're doing with the change in scenery. [/SPOILER]

When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

Yes, Cain and Abel were among several old DC horror anthology hosts who became denizens of the Dreaming when Neil Gaiman began his Sandman series. They originally hosted the series The House of Mystery and The House of Secrets.

Thanks Todd.
"Abel's House of Secrets" is a recurring place in the DC universe, as is "Cain's House of Mystery."

As I recall, in Neil Gaiman's "Sandman" series Cain and Abel exist in The Dreaming, the plane that acts as the home to Morpheus aka. Dream of the Endless. In the Dreaming they're fated to reenact the first murder again and again and the only time they can interact with the mortal realm is through these special houses.

When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

Congratulations on getting your computer restored, Matthew.

The poem claimed that Grendel and his mother were the descendants of Cain, whose offspring were twisted into monsters as punishment for his murder of Abel. If Grendel and his mother were indeed gargoyles in the Gargoyles Universe, I can't help thinking that Goliath and his clan would have found that take on their origins - a corrupt offshoot of humanity rather than a people in their own right - insulting. Demona (if she bothered to read the poem, which is unlikely) would have been incensed.

(Note that the "Secrets" episode of "Young Justice" featured both the "Sword of Beowulf" and a place called "Abel's House of Secrets" - the original Abel being Cain's victim - not to mention that the villain of that episode also engaged in sibling murder. Was the combination influenced by that passage of "Beowulf", or is it just a coincidence?)

Todd Jensen

Computer's finally back, so yay.

When it comes to Grendel and his mother, I'm thinking two possibilities:
1. Grendel's mother is some form of spellcaster and she possibly created Grendel through some form of magical means.
2. The two of them are in some way connected to the Children of Oberon. Grendel's mother being a lake dweller brings to mind the numerous water spirits found all over the world like the Nixie or Jenny Greenteeth. She could a stronger and more malevolent version.

For the former, it wouldn't be out of place. We already know that there are plenty of magic casters in the Gargoyles 'verse. For the latter, there's plenty of dark, twisted or evil Children out there and they could be grouped alongside of them.

When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

Given that the setting of "Beowulf" (Denmark and southern Sweden) was a long distance from Scotland, it probably wouldn't have been part of the Wyvern clan's tradition. But I've wondered about possible connections between gargoyles and dragons, not only because of Iago's cry, but also because of the name "Wyvern" associated with Goliath's clan (a wyvern being a sort of two-legged dragon) and the legendary French dragon Gargouille, who was accredited with being the inspiration for architectural gargoyles.

Incidentally, one small corretion on my musings of Goliath reading "Beowulf" before the Wyvern Massacre; scholars believe that the one surviving manuscript dates back to the early eleventh century. Assuming that that was when "Beowulf" was set down in writing (though it obviously must have existed in oral form well before that), that makes it less likely that Castle Wyvern would have had a copy of the manuscript.

If Grendel and his mother were gargoyles, their lake-dwelling suggests they might have had physically much in common with the Loch Ness clan (semi-aquatic gargoyles).

Todd Jensen

Todd: If Grendel and his mother were gargoyles, which seems plausible, then I'm curious about Beowulf's final battle against a dragon. It could be a hint to Iago's maddeningly vague quasi-religious reference to "the dragon." My mind is now spinning out a plotline where gargoyles have their own version of the story of Beowulf about the berserker who murdered their clan and slayed their god.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

MATTHEW - Sorry to hear about your computer problems still continuing (and with an unfortunate twist).

I've thought of other literary classics not on Greg Weisman's list of authors (all the more so because it didn't include Dostoyevsky, whom we know Goliath's read) and imagining Goliath's response to them. One of the few classics written before the Thousand Year Sleep (besides Homer - who, I'd pointed out earlier, wouldn't have been available at Castle Wyvern in the tenth century) was "Beowulf". I'm not sure that Castle Wyvern might have had a copy (only one manuscript of the poem has survived, for a start, though we don't know whether that was a sign of its rarity or not), so Goliath might have had to wait until awakening in New York to read it - and I wonder what he'd have thought of Beowulf's fight with Grendel, given what beings the humans in his time were most often viewing as monsters. (Which might raise the question of whether Grendel and his mother, in the Gargoyles Universe, were gargoyles. If so, presumably the last survivors of their clan, one which probably never made a pact with humans, and had turned bitter and hostile, on an almost Demona-ish level.)

Mary Shelley's "Frankenstein" would also have made an interesting read for Goliath, especially after his own encounters with mad science in the modern world (Coldstone's bound to come to mind to us, of course). For that matter, I wonder what Goliath would have made of the monster also being an avid reader of classic literature (one detail that, alas, pop culture hasn't picked up; the first time I read the book, and particularly that facet of the Frankenstein monster, I thought "Hollywood has done this guy a great injustice").

Todd Jensen

I consider myself pretty well read, but Todd's definitely got me beat by a good mile.

In case anyone missed my last post, The Spectacular Spider-Man is on Netflix so that's worth checking out if you can.

And in news of my computer problems, I was initially going to send it to a repair shop but a friend offered to repair it. It'd take longer but it would also be cheaper. And then I find out he doesn't feel confident enough to try the repair without breaking something (the motherboard is glued in or something). So I have to wait for it to be returned so I can send it to the repair shop and pay the original price.

The circuitousness of this whole thing is giving me a headache.


TODD> I've also enjoyed your recent series of literary commentary. I've just not have much of value to add to the convo, largely 'cuz you're clearly way more well-read than I am. ;)
'nuff said

MASTERDRAMON - Thanks. And I liked your thoughts on Goliath reading about werewolves and the likely affect the Avalon World Tour might have had on his reading.

One other piece of Goliath's reading which I've thought about lately was his mention in "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time" that the library adjoining the clock tower had several books on Merlin. I recently wondered what led Goliath to discover them. At that point, he obviously wasn't expecting that elements from the Arthurian legend would impose themselves upon his life (the events in "Lighthouse" were the first time that happened).

I had one small speculation that might be wrong, but decided to share here anyway. The earliest surviving writings about Merlin portrayed him as living in a forest in part of what is now Scotland. (These tales depicted him as a hermit - called "Myrddin", by the way - who fled into the forest after a terrible battle, a battle which, the poems hint, he was partly responsible for; he was even driven mad by it. He spent the rest of his life in the forest - living, according to one of the poems, with a pig, probably a wild pig closely related to a wild boar - uttering prophecies about the future.) It's tempting to wonder whether this tradition about Merlin had reached Castle Wyvern in Goliath's time and Goliath might have seen Merlin as therefore connected to "the old country". (Of course, we know that the Merlin of the Gargoyles Universe would have far more in common with the familiar Merlin of Arthurian romance than the Myrddin poems - which actually seem to have contributed to the conventional legend only his name, which got tweaked, and an ability to foresee the future; in the Middle Ages, and even in early modern times, Merlin was far better-known for seeing the future than for being King Arthur's wizard.)

Todd Jensen

I may not have much to add personally, but speaking only for myself, I've really enjoyed this "author speculation" series of yours, Todd.

One other thing I will note is that, given Goliath is shown to be studying up on a generically titled "Werewolves" book in Eye of the Beholder, one can only imagine how the World Tour influenced his reading tastes. After personally witnessing that figures from the Banshee to Anansi are all very real and very dangerous, I can easily picture him hunkering down with some collections of world mythology and folklore for a few nights - both for entertainment purposes, as well as to be prepared for the next public domain threat they'll inevitably wind up running into.

Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"Inside of every demon is a rainbow." - Charlie Magne


I'll rap up my thoughts on Goliath reading classic authors from Greg Weisman's list in this post; I'd noticed that my last few posts on the subject tended to silence the comment room for a few days, so decided to wrap this up quicker.

The final three names on Greg's list were Thomas Hardy, William Faulkner, and Ernest Hemingway.

The Hardy book that I'd most like to see Goliath's response to (maybe the clan's, as well) is "Far From the Madding Crowd", where an architectural gargoyle (which Hardy called a "gurgoyle") played a small but important role.

Goliath's response to Faulkner's work would be interesting from a metafitional perspective, since Greg's mentioned Faulkner's works (particularly the "universe of characters" tone of Yoknapatawpha County) as one of the influences on "Gargoyles". While it's been a while since I've read anything by Faulkner, one particular work comes to mind in connection to "Gargoyles", "The Bear", which features the hunt of a "larger-than-life" bear who feels almost like a being of myth (one of the characters describes him near the beginning, for example, of approaching human habitations regularly to see if they've finally got the dog that can bring him down and driving other, lesser bears out of the way because he's the "king bear"). I once read a comparison of it to three other hunts of animals that feel like beings of myth (and in a couple of cases, are): the Calydonian boar from classical mythology, the boar Twrch Trwyth from the old Welsh "Culhwch and Olwen", and Moby-Dick. Given that the gargoyles (as I especially noticed after I rewatched the whole series in 2019) are themselves quarries of hunts and seen as creatures of myth, I wonder how Goliath would have responded to such a story. (As for "Moby-Dick", the depiction of Captain Ahab as an obsessed fanatic carrying out the hunt to avenge a physical disfigurement will certainly seem familiar to "Gargoyles" viewers.)

It's been even longer since I last read Hemingway, so I can't speculate much on Goliath's response.

Todd Jensen