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Comments for the week ending January 8, 2023

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I haven't seen this episode, only read about it, but one side-note on Vandal Savage having been Genghis Khan. I've read that in actual history, when Genghis Khan died, everyone who dug his grave was afterwards put to death. I wonder whether, in Earth-16, this was Vandal Savage's way of covering up his being still alive and having slipped away somewhere else to assume a new alias.
Todd Jensen

"Evolution" my favorite episode of season 3 and one of my favorite of the series as a whole.

This episode really cemented David Kaye as a worthy successor to Vandal Savage and brought some much needed depth to the first immortal. We get a little parallel between the Savage family and that of Apokolips. While it's implied that Kalibak suffers from the same abuse and neglect from Darkseid that he does in the comics, Vandal is direct and helpful to Cassandra. Trusting her to be able to run the Warworld while he cuts off the head of the snake...or starfish. Kalibak turns a captured meta-teen into a bomb just to destroy the armada at a faster rate, Vandal is very much a "waste not, want not" leader, though that will be clearer later on.

But at the same time it's shown that despite his vision of himself as the greatest unsung hero, and despite how much he loves his family, the plan will always come first. While I do think that Vandal values individuals, as he is the first among equals within the Light, it does rely entirely on how useful they can remain in their mortal lives. He cherished Olympia, even embracing her one last time, but that doesn't change the fact that he ultimately put her down like an ailing pet when it became clear that she may end up more of a hinderance than help.

But the one of the biggest reveals is what the Light's endgame is, to have their eventual showdown with Apokolips for control of the cosmos. And that makes everything up to this point all the more interesting. The army of Genomorphs from the pilot? Undoubtedly made to match the Parademons. The Light manipulating other galactic powers into attacking Earth so the heroes could take them down? All to reduce the number of rivals out in space. What's also interesting is that despite the open secret that the two will end up against each other, there's been a lot of open goodwill between the two. Apokolips granting its Father Boxes and other weapons to the Light and Intergang. The Light sending captured metas to Apokolips to use and abuse. And it's only a matter of time before the air of mutual benefit disappears and open conflict arrives.

Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Oh, and Jefferson and Jace have a drunken hook-up in a hotel room. This show can be surprisingly racy at times.

Ah, right. There were two people there, it was hard to tell who did what at first.

"One big thing that stood out to me in "Rescue Op" was the reveal that Ras was no longer the head of the League of Assassins and had stepped away from the Light all together."

They seem to alternate between the terms "Shadows" and "Assassins." I think the former was invented by Christopher Nolan, but I could be wrong about that. But this gives them a whole "Shadow and Light" motif.

"To say nothing of the Red-Hooded ninja that seemed to recognize Nightwing..."

Well, when you put it that way, it's obvious who it is. [SPOILER] The Arkham Knight. [/SPOILER]

Young Justice 3x07: Evolution

We get Vandal Savage’s backstory and character exploration. Like the best villains, he thinks of himself as the hero. I think it was confirmed he was a Neanderthal, or at least partly, and became the first meta-human due to contact with an asteroid with mutagenic powers. We see how he got his Hunter’s Mask scars from a fight with a bear (I’m assuming the scars were a Weisman invention, as it’s such a blatant Gargoyles reference) and we learn that Savage was Genghis Khan. IRL the Mongol Empire fell apart due to bickering between Khan’s heirs, so it’s not clear how that worked out in this world. Maybe Savage stepped away and allowed the Temujin identity to die because he thought humans were becoming soft under his unquestioned rule. That’s my current theory, given his whole philosophy is the Social Darwinian idea that humans need conflict to be made stronger. This is in sharp contrast to his ally Darkseid, who would never allow his empire to break apart over concern for his subjects’ agency.

Back with the good guys, there’s some character growth happening. A bunch of jokes about cheesy superhero names and Brion talks about his friends arguing about who would win in a fight, Batman or Superman. This feels like Greg talking to the audience- “why would they fight?” “Maybe bad guys mind controlled them?” I found out there was a 70’s hair band named Nightwing. I’ll confess I sometimes have trouble telling Conner and Dick apart when they’re out of costume.

Back to the baddies. Savage uses a space station called Warworld to fight off an invading army. I think we saw it was Starro the Conqueror- that was definitely who was fighting in the flashbacks. I only know Starro from James Gunn’s The Suicide Squad, and I gather that was a much weaker version of the character. Savage lets his daughter Cassandra take point and kill the enemies, but they see it as a waste. He would rather capture them to use for his own gain or keep them alive as a threat to motivate humanity. One of the heroes talks about the importance of balance between rivals, but they are talking about the strive for peaceful coexistence. Savage has a similar philosophy but with the idea that there should always be violent conflict to sharpen civilizations. A similar philosophy is espoused by Caesar in Fallout: New Vegas (he calls it Hegelian Dialectics, though philosophers tell me he misunderstands the concept).

And then there’s the gut-punch of Savage euthanizing his elderly, dementia-addled daughter. Savage and his allies talk throughout about the usefulness of life, and how life should not be wasted when it can be used, but then he coldly ends the life of his own child. By snapping her neck- S&P are a lot looser than they were in the “drop him off a cliff” days of Gargoyles (this was apparently Vietti’s idea https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=1230). To Savage, individual life is not valuable in and of itself, it is simply a means to an end. This is ur-fascism: the glorification of struggle and violence, the praise of mythic heroes, the liquidation of the elderly and disabled, the fear of an enemy from outside. And this last is exemplified by Godfrey scapegoating metahumans on Earth as a fifth column that cannot be trusted. Maybe Savage and Darkseid aren’t as different as I thought. Darkseid was Kirby’s vision of the ultimate totalitarian. Darkseid wants to enslave minds in a direct way through the anti-life equation, while Savage wants to enslave them in a constant war of all against all. He may think he’s fighting for the dynamism of the human spirit, but he is just as much an enemy to the flourishing of life. They differ in ends, but not in means, and they plan to have an ultimate confrontation once they win their war. I’m sold.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

That was someone to whom he said, "Good job, kid. Boss'll be proud."

"I think Black Spider isn't a metahuman, just a spider-themed ninja."

Really? It looked like he threw a giant boulder at someone.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Todd Jensen> Yeah, and in the comics Ma'aleca'andra is the Martian name of Mars. [SPOILER] In Young Justice, it's the capital city [/SPOILER].

Jurgan> I think Black Spider isn't a metahuman, just a spider-themed ninja.


While the name "Malefic" is obviously derived from ominous words in the English language starting with "Mal-" (which even inspired the name of a well-known Disney villain), I keep on also thinking, whenever I see it or "Malefa'ak", of "Malacandra", C.S. Lewis's name for Mars in "Out of the Silent Planet" - thanks to these being Martians.
Todd Jensen

Just a heads up, the Ma'alefa'ak isn't a mythical beast but a natural predator on Mars. And it's a play on Malefic, Martian Manhunter's evil twin from the comics.

One big thing that stood out to me in "Rescue Op" was the reveal that Ras was no longer the head of the League of Assassins and had stepped away from the Light all together. To say nothing of the Red-Hooded ninja that seemed to recognize Nightwing...

Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

"The New Gods were first mentioned in Season 1's "Disordered" when the Forever People appeared and befriended Superboy, fighting Intergang and Desaad. Sphere came through a boom tube in Bialya thanks to the Light's mysterious partner before that in "Bereft", of course, but "Disordered" was the episode that confirmed she was from New Genesis."

Thanks for the reminder. I watched the first two seasons something like five years ago, and at the time I hadn't read any of the Fourth World stuff so I didn't get the significance.

Speaking of that one Batman quote, M'Comm also used the "superstitious cowardly lot" quote to explain why he took the form of a mythical beast.

I also watched 3x06: Rescue Op. In this episode, Josh Keaton plays a Spider-themed superbeing. Cute. And a few of the characters go to the League of Assassins and fight Sensei, whose design reminded me of Uncle Iroh. It's fun how Nightwing is now having to play parent to the new crew. Brion, Halo/Violet/Gabrielle, and Forager made a nice little subunit. This had a bunch of cameos, especially Barbara Gordon as Oracle. Nothing jumped out at me like the last, but it's starting to get interesting.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

We also got an article on Goliath's unwitting "Batman" quote, and the possible implications.


And they did address one of the biggest challenges to that crossover - the fact that Batman's owned by a rival property to Disney - though I still doubt it's something that we'll see in the comic.

Todd Jensen

Re: the interview with Greg and Dynamite [SPOILER] Besides the spin-offs, which I *so* hope all get developed, it was exciting to see Staghart mentioned! [/SPOILER]

Todd> Interesting to hear more about the creation of the toyline I remember seeing back in the day.

Jurgan> The New Gods were first mentioned in Season 1's "Disordered" when the Forever People appeared and befriended Superboy, fighting Intergang and Desaad. Sphere came through a boom tube in Bialya thanks to the Light's mysterious partner before that in "Bereft", of course, but "Disordered" was the episode that confirmed she was from New Genesis.


Just listened to the "Voices from the Eyrie" podcast on "Leader of the Pack" (a good evening for it, since it's the night of the Full Wolf Moon, and Wolf was in this episode). A lot of fun material in it, including an account of how they wound up with 52 episodes for the second season, Goliath's narration for the Season Two opener, the development of Coyote (with a mention that they'd originally planned him to be the pilot for the "Pack Attack Vehicle" which Kenner decided not to make - though the name sounds like something they would have come up with!), etc.
Todd Jensen

Jurgan> Yes, we had heard about the whole White Martian thing before. It's brought up rather innocuously back in "Targets" (the episode rather than the comic) that White Martians are second class citizens on Mars, this was back when M'gann was still pretending to be green.

Back when I was doing the reviews, I just referred to him as M'comm because Ma'alefa'ak is a pain to write. And yeah, he wastes no time being perhaps the most loathsome villain in the show. Killing off the enslaved metas just to spite his sister and then blaming Forager for everything that went wrong.

Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Young Justice 3x05: Away Mission

Definitely my favorite episode of the season so far. We got the introduction of a bunch of Fourth World stuff. I don’t think this was the first mention of the New Gods, but it’s the first I remember them featuring prominently. We saw Orion, though it turned out not to really be him, but I’m sure he’s on his way (the wiki suggests it’ll be a while). Orion is the bastard son of Darkseid, and given Greg’s love of the bastard trope, I think he’d enjoy playing with the character. But it turns out it was M’gann’s brother. Have we heard mention of the “white Martian” concept before? Anyway, I can’t spell his name, but the brother is kind of like Killmonger- he’s part of an oppressed race but takes his fight for liberation too far, getting innocent bystanders involved in the process. (I suppose I could call him a “white nationalist,” though that has very different connotations in real life.) Bear is always a fun character, given a lovable goofball portrayal by Bill Faggerbakke. But the bug people had a darker tone. A recurring theme in Greg’s work is that hate may start from a valid reason, but it eventually becomes self-sustaining. The Canmores and Eddie Brock are good examples. The bugs were manipulated into fighting the New Gods, but it didn’t matter- the bug leader needed someone to hate and wouldn’t accept that there was no good reason. Though I also got the feeling that there was bad blood long before the manipulation began.

The other main plot was the team on Earth training Halo and Brion. There seemed to be a bit of flirtation between the two of them. Brion’s lashing out was a bit predictable, but Halo’s naïve attempts to help were charming. “Don’t be ashamed, you are well-shaped.”

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Antiyonder> [SPOILER] You don't have to go as far as apologies, lol. I just wouldn't care to see it and don't think it's likely. Luz seeing her father again for encouragement in a more genuine way, like if she visits the spirit plane during her quest, though, would work. In the Boiling Isles, you never know. Actually, that would be one way to get Caleb's side of the story [/SPOILER].

Sorry for the double-post, but I just listened to the "Voices from the Eyrie" podcast on "Re-Awakening" - which got Keith David for a guest. He provided a great "in-character-as-Goliath" opening for it, and displayed his enthusiasm for the part. (Pity they didn't bring up his voicing Goliath's counterpart Manny in "Ducktales 2017", but maybe in a later episode. They're hoping to have him back for one of the Thailog stories.)

It had a good discussion of "Re-Awakening" and Greg's preference for open-ended closure, which fits the shows he's worked on, such as "Gargoyles" (he commented that the only way to give it a definite ending would be to kill off the entire gargoyle species, which he had no intention of doing, of course).

Todd Jensen

PHIL - Welcome back - kind of, since you mentioned that you'd been quietly visiting. (And I can relate; I generally sit out the "Young Justice" discussion as well.)

ED - Thanks for your remarks - and I can't recall what I was posting back in 1998 either. And since it was before they started archiving the comment room, we've no way of finding out, either. Pity.

Todd Jensen

B> [SPOILER] Yeah I do get that. If nothing else it was just something that hit me and at least not something I was clamoring to see. Apologies just the same [/SPOILER]

Ed> Happy Anniversary!

Phil> Welcome back, and my first impression agrees with yours.

Matthew> My favorite was Amity: (flatly) Oh no, it's undefeatable. ;) Thanks for the link!

Antiyonder> [SPOILER] To be honest, I'd find making an illusion of someone's dead parent to be bad taste regardless of intentions and would not expect Camila to okay that. [/SPOILER]


Welcome back, Phil! Shame you felt that way but hopefully it will work better in retrospect when read as part of a whole arc. The good thing in some respects is that we kind of know what to expect from the SLG run so while I really like the cautious, inclusive pacing, I've no doubt we'll have the same kind of off-the-leash madcap antics again soon.

Matthew: Thanks for that. Sounds like the closest we've got to confirmation of the spin-offs without actually confirming anything at all. Of course, I expect we will have to wait until the Marvel and SLG reprints are done first and that could take a while.

Incidentally, I first posted here on 5th January 1998 - 25 years ago today (pretty much to the hour since in those days you had to wait until after 6pm to dial up without incurring charges). I'd lurked a bit before (I remember, as ever, particularly enjoying Todd's posts and insights although I can't now remember the specific details of what he was discussing at the time). I had also been obsessed with the show for a couple of years by that point but making that first post proved momentous. I don't think I could possibly have imagined that I'd still be here a quarter-century later or that I would have got to know so many wise and brilliant people. Although I've drifted in and out a bit over the years especially when there's not much Gargoyles conversation going on, I've always try to keep a weather eye on S8 - this place means a lot to me. Thanks so much to everyone here and, of course, particularly to Gorebash for keeping it going all these years. Incredible.


Hey all, long time no post.
It's good to see old "faces" showing up again. I suppose it seems I'm one of them, but I've actually been here all along, checking in regularly but rarely posting (since I'm only here for Garoyles and not Young Justice).

Four weeks later, I'm finally getting around to posting my review of Garoyles: Here in Manhattan #1. I waited so long because, to be honest, I was disappointed. Not that the comic itself is bad, just that I had my expectations set too high. The first issue is very re-introductory and nothing really happens. Things are starting to happen, but nothing happens yet. Even new characters like Katana and Gnash only get a few lines; we don't really get to know them any better than we did before.

I saw several people say reading the comic was like getting together with old friends you havent seen in ten years and just picking up where you left off. But I re-watch Gargoyles regularly on Disney+ and I just re-read the SLG comics in November in anticipation. So for me it was like getting together with friends you see regularly and not having anything new to talk about. It's not unpleasant, but it's also not exciting and fun.

Greg has said that the first issue is like the first act of a three-act episode. To me, it felt more like the first issue was "Previously on Gargoyles." It reminds us of past events (Dracon and Brod are in prison, Maggie is pregnant) but doesn't move anything forward.

But, despite my disappointment, I am eagerly looking forward to issue #2 later this month and anticipating great things as the series continues.

Phil - [p1anderson at yahoo dot com]

Thanks for the latest review, Matthew.

Odalia's disapproval of Luz makes me wonder whether the scene where Luz was auditioning for "Romeo and Juliet" at the start of the series (the one where she makes Juliet's death scene too realistic) was intended as foreshadowing.

And speaking of Shakespeare, happy Twelfth Night to all.

Todd Jensen

Todd and B> Just hit me. [SPOILER] So besides further pep talk about the good she did for her friends, family and the Boiling Isles, what if Gus went a bit further with the ok and help from Camila.

Basically making an illusion of Manny to mention how proud he is of his daughter and confident that the Good Witch Luzura will kick Belos' butt.

Luz getting caught up in the moment for a bit and realizing though that it was her mom and friends doing that to cheer her up.

Think that would help Luz regain some more lost hope and optimism especially considering what we saw glimpses of in some promos of For the Future? [/SPOILER]


1. I mean arguably there are shades of Bump's care for his students in Season 1. Like Mattholomule embarrassing himself with that magic trick in Covention and Bump taking responsibility for a student not looking too good.

2. Yeah so that Swamp Toad book is a shout out to Amphibia. Only Hop Pop is labeled as a toad. "Say what now?".

3. While there isn't much Luz and Eda stuff on this or not so obvious, I still think there is something here just the same.

Even blowing off her studies, Eda is still willing to take lessons from her kid just the same. A kid who has limits on the kind of magic she can do. Even half-assed an extra credit assignment just to get a star.

Compare that with Odalia who lacks any compassion for her daughter and thinks she herself is beyond the need to change and improve.


See? There's a reason that you don't want any particular group or family holding too much power over a school.

Watched "Escaping Expulsion" which brings back the rest of the Eda's Dumb Kids Club and introduces the the Blight parents properly (which is the only proper thing about them really). For starters, I'm glad they kept Gus' voice actor. I know that only a week and a half passed in-universe but production time and recording can take a bit longer than that, and well when you work with kid actors the voice change is almost certain to happen at some point. Instead of recasting they just had everyone react to his voice deepening with obvious confusion.

I also really liked the interaction we got with their parents, Gus' dad seems to be constantly doing the broadcaster bit and Willow's dads are still openly supporting her even while grounding her. That whole, "You're in deep trouble, young lady! So much trouble that we're going to take a hands-on approach to making sure you get a good education even though we don't know what we're doing!" had me laugh more than I thought.

What isn't as fun is the Blight parents, who are basically fantasy arms manufacturers. Yikes. Watching this, I was wondering if there was a bit of retconning involved. When I first see them in the memory, Alador and Odalia both seemed pretty upper crust, "we don't associate with their kind of parents. But the episode frames it as Odalia as the saber-tooth tiger mom with her husband as the passive and easily cowed husband. But near the end it, it's shown that he's fairly much the same but just less direct in wanting to control and shape Amity's life. The whole creating abominations made for specifically destructive reasons is a little concerning, as is the fantasy inspired firearms, as is the the fact that the Emperor is taking a personal interest and a monopolized purchasing approach to them. For a guy claiming to not wanting to invade the Earth, this sort of thing doesn't exactly lend credence to it.

And then there's Eda and Lilith's lesson in the field of glyph magic, and why do I get the feeling we're looking at their old school habits? In any case, I like the examination between the two and how they approach magic, Lilith as the teacher's pet obsessed with the fundamentals and Eda as the troublemaker looking for a quick and flashy shortcut. Actually, the lesson that some things can't just be zoomed through and the importance of mastering the basics isn't something I expected from this show. It's very Avatar. What's also surprising is that it looks like light, ice, nature and fire are the only magic sigils available. I was kind of expecting something closer to the Classic Elements. Again, like Avatar. How this will play into the future and what kind of combinations this will lead to remains to be seen. But it does offer an explanation to why they didn't work in the human world, if they operate by commanding the magic around them, and Earth doesn't have any magic, what can they do?

To conclude, I like the change seen in Principle Bump. Despite everything, he's come to care and appreciate the trio even while threatening them with a ballista. We also see a bit of change in Luz and Amity's relationship, previously it was Amity holding onto an unspoken crush, conveyed only through little gestures and the obvious blushing. Now Luz is starting to show some red herself at Amity's gestures, like standing in-between her and a massive abomination and speaking up on behalf of her friends.

Favorite Lines:

Amity: (flatly) Wow, it's so fast and strong. Order now.

King: Weh? Yeah, yeah. I'll deal with it. No one ever said power came with responsibility.

Willow: Okay, I can use the root system underground to tunnel our way in.
Amity: That'll take to long. We should just rush the guards at the door.
Gus: No, no, no. I'll distract them with illusions of beautiful lady guards.
Willow: This isn't a cartoon from the '40's, Gus! We need a better plan.

Odalia: Amity, get away from the human!
Amity: No. You're going to listen to me for once. Luz, Willow and Gus are my friends. They're nice to each other. They listen to each other. They make me think about what kind of person I really want to be!
Odalia: (Noticing the rapidly dropping sales meter) Ugh. What do you want?
Amity: Let my friends back into Hexside, or else your precious investors will watch me rip this thing apart bit by bit.

Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

I remember an episode of "The Adventures of the Gummi Bears" where the villain was turning animals (and Gummis) to stone and selling them as statues (thus not having to actually sculpt anything); a shot of his "wares" included silhouettes which bore a striking resemblance to Mickey and Donald. (It feels appropriate to bring up here, since "Gummmi Bears" was a sort-of-inspiration for "Gargoyles".)

Thanks for the link, Matthew;I enjoyed reading it - including the question of whether notable holidays would be getting into the story. (It reminds me of the way they got into "The Spectacular Spider-Man" and "Young Justice" - I wonder if that might have helped inspire the question.)

Oh, and I forgot to mention this in my last post, but I discovered a charming book for younger readers at the library today involving a gargoyle (a "hatchling" one) called "Anthony and the Gargoyle" by Jo Ellen Bogart and Maja Kastelic. In it, a boy meets a young gargoyle (apparently the offspring of one of the gargoyles at Notre Dame in Paris) and makes friends with him. It's a sweet story (all pictures, no words - but you can tell what's going on from the drawings).

Todd Jensen

Yeah and it shows how they regard Donald Duck.:-p

In contrast to merely hearing his voice in Bonkers and vague terms, Donald flat out appears in Going Bonkers.

Plus a Quack Pack clip in Enter Macbeth.

But yeah, now we know what Gargoyles Universe Weisman was working on Quack Pack and W.I.T.C.H. in the 90s.


Greg and Dynamite did a fan Q&A yesterday, you can read about it here:


Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Yes, that does seem the most likely explanation for their objection. If it had been a different Disney character on that watch, they probably wouldn't have minded as much.
Todd Jensen

Disney is incredibly protective of the Mickey Mouse image and he doesn't get to show up in anything without the higher-ups approval in triplicate.

That's in part why Mickey didn't show up until the very end of the first Kingdom Hearts game and if the first game didn't do as well as it did, he might've been relegated to cameos at best for the rest of the series. Honestly, it's a miracle that he's remained a major part for as long considering how dramatic the games get. And I doubt the Disney company want their beloved icon steeped in anything too dramatic.

Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Todd Jensen> I always mute the ads, too! Solidarity.

Craig> Yeah, that was weird how Mickey couldn't appear on DuckTales (2017), aside from the melon.


Todd: Disney has always been really weird about including Mickey in their cartoon shows. Tad Stones’s first pitch when Disney was putting together their TV animation department was a Mickey Mouse in Space show, and Eisner told him Mickey is too special to put on TV. This was the same logic why Donald Duck had to be written out of the original DuckTales and could only appear a handful of times throughout the series: Eisner was worried that having him appear every day would overexpose the character. I also recall a weird Bonkers episode that was entirely about Mickey Mouse being kidnapped, and although Wayne Allwine provided the voice, Mickey is never actually seen besides one quick silhouette shot at the beginning, and they never actually say his name onscreen once! Obviously they did eventually do House of Mouse and Mouseworks and I guess now some show for young kids where Mickey and all his friends drive race cars for some reason? But even recently on the newer DuckTales show, the producers were told that Mickey was off-limits (although they did sneak in an amusing pseudo-cameo in one episode). The only other Disney characters DuckTales were told they couldn’t use were the Rescue Rangers, due to the movie that was then in production, although they did eventually slip them in as well.

Matthew> Yeah it would also be a good way to do a Superman game without having to nerf his power or some other absurd "64" elements:-p.

The Royal Flush Gang has always been more of an unambitious gang, more interested in stealing things than aligning themselves with an evil pantheon of space gods. Whether they'd work doing Intergang's schtick would depend on the writing.

Which brings up another thing, I always thought that in a tv series or cinematic universe Intergang would make for good early antagonists. Like Drakon in his first appearance, they're not dangerous because who they are, but rather what they have access to. The particle rifles for Drakon and alien technology for Intergang.

I actually like the idea of starting small, like stealing from Lex Corp or STAR Labs or other super science based industrialists. But unlike Lex who builds up his super science for taking down Superman or accumulating power, they do it to make quick easy cash and not caring about what's unleashed on the streets. This marks a change in how Superman fights everyday crime because now ordinary criminals can have access to weapons and technology that could be dangerous to him and is certainly dangerous to themselves and others. Then as things go on (and if they wanted to remain relevant) have them trade in alien technology and have it be a big reveal that their new supplier is Desaad or some other god of Apokolips.

Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

I forgot to mention that Roy Sato also brought up how he smuggled a "Mickey Mouse" cameo into one of the helicopter scenes in "Her Brother's Keeper" (the moment when Jackal and Hyena were about to open fire on Xanatos's helicopter, with Hyena saying "Rich man, dead man") - and I remember, on one of his visits to the comment room years ago, he mentioned that as well. (Greg Weisman then brought up how, in "Possession", he'd wanted Puck's giant watch to be a Mickey Mouse watch, but the higher-ups objected. Greg was understandably bewildered, since both Mickey and "Gargoyles" were Disney properties, so why couldn't one reference the other? I suppose that the objection stemmed from "Gargoyles" being "unconventional Disney", but it still does seem odd.)
Todd Jensen

Jurgan> True, though in a show with Batman as a lead or any Batman show that isn't full on realistic, I think the RFG could work as a variant to say Intergang. The Joker being akin to Morgan Edge (Which I hear the character was made to be, but they revealed that it was a clone of his serving Darkseid) or Bruno Manheim.

"And eye rolled when seeing that the Joker and Royal Flush Gang were indeed employed by the ruler of Apokolips."

That is a bit odd, to imagine an absolutist tyrant employing such a wild card.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Todd Jensen and B> Forgot, [SPOILER] Yeah the burden of guilt for his creation belongs to Belos, but besides Hunter feeling like he was damaged goods cause of Caleb being a witch hunter (Prior to TtT, I didn't even consider that he presumed Caleb to be just as bad), I bet some of his guilt in hindsight is due to creatures and resources again that had to be expended to make him. He lives only cause others were killed to create him and all that. [/SPOILER]

Jurgan> Yeah outside of Greg's stuff, when watching The Super Powers Team with my brother, yeah he balked at the idea shown in the opening theme where the Joker was working for Darkseid.

And eye rolled when seeing that the Joker and Royal Flush Gang were indeed employed by the ruler of Apokolips.


"(This was the first time I'd heard them; I always turned the sound off during commercials.)"

I remember when I'd only seen the Heroes Awaken movie, I saw a commercial for an action figure of "Xanatos disguised as a gargoyle" (i.e., wearing the red armor) and thought "he never did that, they just made that up to sell toys."

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Oh. And thanks for clarification of Roy's letter.

Yeah, I knew about that from a commenter here a few weeks ago.

Funny that you mention Zehra Fazal, Antiyonder. Her letter (which I mentioned a few weeks ago) was published in the same issue as Roy Sato’s, issue 4. Quite an eventful letter column for past and future participants in the Gargoyles saga!

Todd Jensen> If I can get around to it, I'll keep a look out for that letter when I do a reread.

Incidentally is the lack of an article on Zehra Fazal just one that hasn't been made? I wouldn't mind doing so, but I figured alternatively the only reason why such hasn't been made is that she requested to not have said article.


Tile Roofs

Listened to the Voices of the Eyrie podcast on "Her Brother's Keeper", which included Roy Sato (who posted a few times in this comment room years ago) as a guest alongside Greg Weisan. Like all the rest, worth hearing.

It included the sound tracks for the Kenner toy commercials back in the mid-90's (linked to the helicopter which got in because Kenner thought the toy line needed a helicopter vehicle, and never mind that the gargoyles already had wings and thus didn't need one - and then wound up not making one after all), and believe me, they were bizarre. (This was the first time I'd heard them; I always turned the sound off during commercials.)

They joked at one point, when discussing where the Mazas lived, that they might live near Aunt May's house. (That'd go down well with everyone who enjoyed both "Gargoyles" and "The Spectacular Spider-Man".) And there was a mention of the "Goliath-counterpart" voiced by Keith David i the 2017 "DuckTales". And, to top it off, we learn that Roy Sato wrote a letter to the Marvel "Gargoyles" comic which got printed in an issue.

Todd Jensen

[SPOILER] Besides Jon firing at Jason ny mistake, he actually even if weakly tried to argue against taking down other gargoyles.

If whether in the last two finished eps or say a hopeful comic Prequel/Midquel, I'm not too certain if kid Philip will come off anymore sympathetic. Well maybe sympathetic in how far he goes in maintaining his delusion, but to take another page from Bishansky (Referring to his preferred take on Norman Osborn)?

More of a bad person getting worse as opposed to Jon showing some good even if factoring in the evils of being passive. [/SPOILER]


[SPOILER] And a crucial part of both descents into darkness was an act of violence against the older brother - except that Philip's act was deliberate. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen

Todd and B> [SPOILER] So besides the name of the Golden Guard, while not a 1 to 1 similarity, either of you see some parallels between Jason/Jon and Philip/Caleb. Like Caleb originally contributing to hunting for witches only to come around with the younger brother taking a darker turn?

Only whereas Jon comes from a more sympathetic place and as Bishansky suggested possibly seeing the error of his way even if it doesn't deter others from taking up the hammer, yeah I am in the camp that Belos will not get any better and will make even Demona look like a Saint in comparison. [/SPOILER]


B - Glad to hear that.

MATTHEW - One other thing. Wait until you learn what the Golden Guard's real name is. (Let's just say it's very appropriate for this comment room.)

Todd Jensen

Todd> I look forward to the other months! Yes, I know Neil a little from meeting him at the World Fantasy Conventions and I'm friends with his editor at Harper Collins. She said that on that occasion she told him it was my birthday and he said, "I'll send them something lovely." He's great in person! (which I can't say of every author)

Antiyonder> [SPOILER] It's interesting, though, that Hunter apparently doesn't try to take the alleged corpse or anything from it. [/SPOILER]


Todd> [SPOILER] I will be interested in seeing Matthew's response to besides Hunter's backstory, but just how evil the reason is for harming a peaceful species like the Selkidomus.

Yeah like I said before, villains messing with something like cloning is damning enough as they make life for selfish purposes without regards for those they create.

Even factoring what we saw in YJ or Gargoyles, I think Belos takes it to the next level in terms of evilness in not only killing the original in order to clone a perfect version as he sees it.

Plus said clones requiring valuable resources and even killing animals for the necessary parts.

Even more is that Hunter and his predecessors not only were made at the cost of such resources, but their duty entails furthering the theft of species and elements of the isles.

And as an aside, yeah the kid that Caleb would have gotten to raise with Evelyn is robbed of his/her/their father just so that their Uncle can create versions of him to mistreat.

Not complaining or anything. Just impressing that what would be more average evil in a story is magnified by Belos as some viewers put it, colonizing. [/SPOILER]


Thanks for the latest review, Matthew. A good one as always. And keep an eye out for the Golden Guard.
Todd Jensen

Late, but Happy New Years.

1. Selkidomus have a use I will go into if Todd or anyone else beats me to it, but I'm going to wait until near your completion of reviewing Season 2.

Partially bringing it up cause it's not even explicitly told later on.

2. Luz's pirate wear, based on Team Aqua from Pokémon Ruby and Sapphire. One of many references that has been made to the franchise already.

3. The Golden Guard (who will be very interesting) is voiced by Zeno Robinson. Same one from Young Justice Outsiders and among various additional roles voiced a young Andrias in Amphibia.

Didn't take note of his name for a long time, but he was the voice of Alan Albright in various Ben 10 shows.

First took notice late as of early 2020 when I saw that he voiced Prince Harry of Coburg in Drgaon Quest Your Story (based on Dragon Quest V Hand of the Heavenly Bride).

Also the voice of Goh on Pokémon Journey.


New year, new season!

Watched "Separate Tides" and thanks to The Cuphead Show, "high seas adventure" has lost all meaning.

So the show wastes no time establishing the new status quo, Eda can't get away with her usual shenanigans without her magic. Lilith has lost all of her prestige and power thanks to the shared curse. And like any proper adventuring party, the gang has to resort to odd jobs to make ends meet. I actually rather like this change in scenery and the fact that Eda is still willing to go through less than legal means for a quick bit of cash, she just has to go about it as a normal person. Plus, it was already well established that Eda focuses a great deal on the connection between people and nature and therefore would be concerned about the Selkidomus. And her knowing about the fantasy equivalent of ambergris was a nice touch considering how valuable that stuff is in real life.

Another shakeup comes in the form of the Golden Guard, who was briefly seen at the end of the first season and if the end credits are anything to go by, has a personal connection to Emperor Belos. And he sure wastes no time showing what he's all about, going for a direct, if slightly playful approach, and demonstrating why the teen prodigy is the new head of the coven. There's still a strong element of mystery going on here, they already showed Belos attempting to repair the door to the human world for reasons yet to be explained. But why kill the Selkidomus? I assume it has something to do with the selkigris but honestly I tend to worry when some the villain's plans involve killing a seemingly peaceful creature for no reason.

To wrap things up, I'm digging the change in the end credits, giving little peaks into the characters and what they're up to after the end of the episode. Plus the Anglo-Saxon art style is pretty unique. By the way, nice touch on making it a point that Luz has dietary needs (and not just lactose intolerance) and the cuisine of the Boiling Isles needs to be specifically picked out for her. I like that they transcribed all of Luz's Spanish instead of just putting "Speaking Spanish" in the captions. And to conclude, dang, the swashbuckler look is a great look for Luz and Eda. Now I want to see the whole cast as pirates.

Favorite Lines:

Hooty: Gasp! Lulu, you're trying to spy on your old buddies? I can help! We can find out their crushes. We can give them cure couple names!

Luz: When we defeat the Selkidomus and get a boatload of snails, Eda won't have to worry about money for a long time.
King: King want a cracker!

Eda: You think throwing your life away is gonna help me? Well it won't. You helped me find King's crown when you barely knew me. You saved me from turning to stone, and... and you even got me talking to my sister again. So, unfortunately for you... my life is pretty great because I'm friends with Luz the human

Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

So great. Thanks for sharing this one!
bosch - [appliancerepaircalg01 at gmail dot com]

Sorry for the double post, but I just listened to the "Voices from the Eyrie" podcast on "Long Way Till Morning", which is also a great tribute to the late Ed Asner. To everyone here who hasn't heard it yet, I highly recommend it.

They briefly discussed the old comedy approach to "Gargoyles"; hearing about the original way the gargoyles were imagined, as much more interested in getting into mischief than protecting the city, reminds me of the "Lawn Gnomes" parody in "Freakazoid". Which means that that parody was (probably unwittingly) evoking the roots of the thing parodied. (And now it occurred to me that it makes all the more sense that the "comedy gargoyles" would be that way, since there was no counterpart to Goliath in the cast. It shows how crucial his leadership skills are to the clan.)

And there's also a neat bit about how Prince Malcolm unwittingly taught Princess Katharine to fear and hate gargoyles by using them as bogeymen. I remember we've discussed it here before, but this time, it was compared to microaggression, which struck me as a good point.

Todd Jensen

I'm glad everyone here liked the quote; I'm hoping to post the rest of the poems for each month of the year from Longfellow's "Poet's Calendar" here this year. (This isn't the first time I've done this; back in 2021, I did a similar thing from Edmund Spenser's "Faerie Queene", as a look through the archives will reveal.)

B - You actually got a calendar from Neil Gaiman himself?

Todd Jensen

Todd: A terrific start to the week and the year! And yes, reaching for a Gaelic dictionary must have been tricky.

B: Thanks for the info. I hope, if the podcast keeps at a rate of roughly two a month and we wish really hard and eat all our vegetables and get a monthly spin-off title, then theoretically the podcast could go indefinitely without running out of material. However, I would love to see a special episode or two for things like "Rain of the Ghosts" and "Spirits of Ash and Foam", plus perhaps even "Mecha-Nation".


Third. Funny you mention that, B...



Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

Ed> That's a good point; in order to fully appreciate reading Paradise Lost, you need to already have the concepts of allegory and theology. Yes, Greg has said that Demona used a spell to accelerate the gargoyles' acquisition of the language.

I wonder if Voices from the Eyrie, or the people behind it, might take up rewatching Greg's other projects like Young Justice and W.I.T.C.H. once they've run through Gargoyles. That would be very nice.



That's a great quote for the new year, Todd! Reminds me a bit of Neil Gaiman's story "October in the Chair" and the calendar he sent me for my birthday a few years ago.



Janus am I; oldest of potentates;
Forward I look, and backward, and below,
I count, as god of avenues and gates,
The years that through my portals come and go.

I block the roads, and drift the fields with snow;
I chase the wild-fowl from the frozen fen;
My frosts congeal the rivers in their flow,
My fires light up the hearths and hearts of men.

Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, "The Poet's Calendar".

Todd Jensen