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The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending January 29, 2023

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Todd Jensen> [SPOILER] Well, the link I posted is as close as we have to official word on the subject. [/SPOILER]

B - [SPOILER] I've wondered whether Demona knew about the other clans or not. I don't think it would make any big difference to her - yes, if you've only one female gargoyle and five male gargoyles (plus a gargoyle beast) left, the species is doomed to extinction even if every human in the world disappears - but what's really driving her is revenge (and a frantic desire to avoid facing her responsibility for the Wyvern Massacre and other such events). I suspect that she'd rationalize it as "At least I can make certain that the humans won't enjoy the fruits of their slaughter." [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen

B: I couldn't swear to where it was confirmed but I'm sure I've heard/read it at least once - podcast and press? Obviously the ambition for the size of HiM may be different from what has been actually greenlit although given the sales of #1, I would find it difficult to think issues beyond #6 are in any immediate jeopardy. It did surprise me that it was 12 since the SLG arcs were apparently going to be 6 and 6 is more traditional in comics (although I'd love a 12-issue hardcover). Mind you, Dynamite seem to like renumbering quite often so it wouldn't entirely astonish me if "Here In Manhattan" is actually the title for the whole of "Season 4".

Thanks for the clarification on [SPOILER] Mary [/SPOILER]. Let's home we get the pertinent spin-off sooner than later. As for POV narrators, although theoretically almost anyone could narrate (and we have precedent for someone outside the clan taking an episode on - "Revelations"), it feels like at this early stage you'd want to stick with the core cast to introduce them. Also, I actually really don't want a Xanatos narration. I love Xanatos but I think knowing what's in his head would run counter to one of the very things that make him so much fun. Owen would be more interesting as there's the potential that you could have the narration change half-way through into Puck.

Todd: [SPOILER] "Lost his marbles" [/SPOILER] - brilliant spot!

Jurgan: It's true that splash pages have evolved (correlated more, as far as I can tell, to advances in printing technology - certainly these intricate panels aren't saving time for the artists. Then again Jack Kirby wasn't exactly shy about using them back in the day. UK comics are often much more dense because what few comics still survive are still mostly anthology books so there's only a handful of pages to work with in the first place.

Although it's interesting to note, I don't think it's a problem having multiple splashes - in comics, the pictures are the stories as well. The scenes and events in this issue that really are significant enough to earn it. The fact is that, if you view the Dynamite run through completely fresh eyes, things like [SPOILER] the gargoyles awakening [/SPOILER] is a huge event that needs establishing even though, for us, it's very familiar. Many of the splashes here have large casts and a lot of information is contained within. Also, just logistically, most issues are written around page turns (or Greg's certainly seem to be) so while theoretically you could have had smaller panels, is extra information at these junctures beneficial over a strong, propulsive image? Ultimately, I think Greg's scripts are very tight and although I expect the first few issues especially to be a little more leisurely in order that all readers are oriented to the people and places, I'd expect ultimately something broadly consistent with the SLG issues and indeed episodes which were often bursting at the seams.

Phoenician: Great example (although that's an example where there is just so much on the page that it could hardly be accused of making the comic "a quick read" which is generally the fear with big splashes.)


Todd Jensen> Re:Gargoyles #2 [SPOILER] We've been discussing here that apparently what they saw in "Shadows of the Past" that Angela asked "What was here?" about was just the pit left where the rookery used to be.

Demona likely did know of some other clans' survival: https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=1724 [/SPOILER]


Jurgan> Don't worry, that was minor. I don't trust my fingers to get the slash in every time if I typed the spoiler tags by hand, so instead I copy and paste them from where it says "Please wrap all spoiler comments within [SPOILER] [/SPOILER] tags." under the Comment box.

Ed> Can you remind me when twelve issues were confirmed for Here in Manhattan? Garg Wiki says that Greg Weisman said six issues were greenlighted with hopes of expanding to twelve.


My copy of "Gargoyles" #2 arrived in the mail today.

[SPOILER] I was surprised to learn that the rookery had been moved to Manhattan alongside the castle; I'd gotten the impression from "Shadows of the Past" that it had been left behind. Apparently I'd misinterpreted that episode, or maybe there was an animation error. I'll have to rewatch that episode now - though if the rookery had indeed been removed, that explains why Goliath and the others didn't take shelter from the storm in there, seeking out the Archmage's cave instead. (I can't help thinking that Demona's plans for the rookery were another example of her not thinking things through - just one female gargoyle means only one egg every twenty years. Unless she knew about other gargoyles out there but wasn't sharing that information with anyone.)

On Hudson's remarks on how the clan's attitude towards the eggs has changed: I think it makes sense. Ever since the gargoyles re-awakened in Manhattan, they'd had no eggs or even hope of any eggs, with the only female gargoyle (as far as they knew) one of their main enemies. And now, they have an egg at last, a future at last. That would obviously mean a different outlook from the days before the Wyvern Massacre.

And it looks as if Brooklyn's in trouble with Katana thanks to the word-play in Egwardo's name. Maybe enough in the doghouse that he'll have to move in with Bronx and Fu-Dog. :)

So Dominic Dracon only pretended to have lost his wits after the events in "The Silver Falcon"; I'd liked the depiction of him in the "crossover with Spiderman" radio play, but I think it makes sense for Greg to take a different route here - and it better fits the approaching storm with Dino Dracon. Antoinette Dracon promises to be a great new character in the Dracon thread, and I was amused at her sharing Angela's dislike of her name being shortened (all the more appropriate given that that line of Angela's came from a Dracon episode). And I was amused by Tony making use of the "lost his marbles" phrase in light of just what Mace Malone really left behind in the silver falcon....

So Mary's the midwife; I certainly hadn't expected that, though it makes sense. That made a great return.

I'm a bit concerned, though, about the third issue. This will presumably resolve the "Thailog kidnaps Maggie to get his hands on her child" story, but there seems so much of it to come - the gargoyles finding out that Xanatos was innocent this time, working out that Thailog was the culprit, heading over to his headquarters to rescue Maggie, Mary, and the baby, the confrontation - can all of that fit into a single issue?

Incidentally, the Tony Fleecs cover - the one my copy bears - depicts Angela, who's this issue's narrator. I wonder from that whether the narrators of #3 to #5 will match the gargoyles shown on the Fleecs covers - Goliath, Brooklyn, and Broadway respectively. Of course, Bronx, who was on the Fleecs cover for #1, didn't even appear in that issue, let alone narrate it, so it might be a coincidence.)

At any rate, I enjoyed it, and am looking forward to #3. [/SPOILER]

Todd Jensen

Aww, shoot, I've been doing too much typing in LaTex- I used a backslash instead of a forward slash in my spoiler tag. Hope I didn't ruin it for anyone.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

[SPOILER]"I really like Fu-dog here and I like the refrain of "so-and-so is clan". Makes me feel like there's a third iteration ahead that's going to twist it but we'll see."

A beast likely can't tell the difference between one of the clan and their corresponding clone, which could lead to some interesting situations.

The discussion of splash pages: It is an interesting evolution of comics in general. You look at the comics of the 60's, they'd tell an entire story in 20-something pages, often using nine panels per page to get exposition over. Comics today are much more slowly paced- the cynical interpration is they are "writing for the trade." I generally think that's a bad move for the industry- one comic is 4 or five dollars, which is a lot for a third of a story.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Ed> re:Gargoyles #2 [SPOILER] Presumably, Mary was there because Xanatos invited her. She and Finella worked to set up the alliance between him and Demona that led to the castle being brought to Manhattan. The clan only briefly met her, they wouldn't expect her to be there, and it was a masquerade ball anyway, so there was little chance of her being recognized too soon in the timeline.

I, too, hope that Lex is corresponding with Staghart online.

Xanatos, Fox, Owen, Tony, Toni, Mary, Maggie, and Talon would all be interesting POV narrators. [/SPOILER]


I haven't listened to the new podcast yet - I've decided to wait a couple of days and catch up on other things - but am looking forward to it. I'm surprised, incidentally, that "Voices from the Eyrie" doesn't have its own entry at "GargWiki" yet.
Todd Jensen

Ed: On SLG double splashes, [SPOILER] I can't remember them all, but don't forget the Spirit of Destiny's simultaneous mic drop addressed to Macbeth, Arthur, Xanatos, and Peredur! [/SPOILER]

As for the current issue, [SPOILER] Bako working double and potentially cast as Antoinette Dracon is certainly intriguing. I'm recalling her cold dismissal to the thugs in "M.I.A" as tonal reference. [/SPOILER]

Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."

So new issue and new podcast - good week!

Okay, let's get spoilery...

Firstly, I was lucky to be able to read the digital version first all corrected. And although I was getting quite wound up checking Amazon an obsessive amount to see if the digital orders were back, I will say a shout out to the... whoever they are... people who are responsible for sorting this kind of stuff out. Thanks.

Also get well soon to Nate who, according to Voices from the Eyrie, has been recovering from Covid.

Great cover and the variants look good too. Something of a mislead really to put Thailog on the A cover. I'm very happy when covers mislead as because they're revealed in advance, they often give away too much for my tastes but it did kind of whet my appetite for more Thailog than the issue delivered. Great image though.

Until Angela was revealed as the narrator, I wasn't sure who we were with and it took me a minute to recalibrate to Brigette Bako's voice - although to be fair, she seemed to have much less to say than Elisa. I also can't imagine Avalon and Demona would be introduced here without an imminent payoff given the "what you need to know" philosophy so I'll be interested to see more about both. In particular, the tiny "Invitation Only" cameo aside, present-day Demona has been AWOL now since "Hunter's Moon" although we did get another reference to her with the great explanation of why the rookery was preserved.

Another multi-word title. Great one though: I liked it when I first heard it and it's only grown on me. It has an iconic quality. I do agree with previous comments that that the Dynamite comic titles feel quite different from any that have come before. "A Little Crazy" and "Idyll or Nightmare" don't necessarily feel like titles from the objective voice of the show necessarily but they DO feel like titles in the style of the narrating characters which is an interesting departure. What kind of titles would Broadway "pick"? Hudson? Katana? I'm so intrigued by this.

Gnash and Hudson. Oh my goodness, I love them. From the boring egg comment to both watching celebrity hockey - and the video tape reference. Absolutely brilliant!

Interested to see what Lex is doing with his evenings. And if it involves dial-up internet!

I really like Fu-dog here and I like the refrain of "so-and-so is clan". Makes me feel like there's a third iteration ahead that's going to twist it but we'll see.

Brooklyn and Katana. Love them. "It's a joke name". Although to be fair, the joke part was "egg" which is in the name so I feel like Katana could have twigged that one. It's not like it was "Yoke-o".

It's really interesting in Angela's issue that there's a slight Angela echo to Antoinette - a daughter-figure, misnamed by others. Not sure what to make of it although I kinda wonder if Greg's "voice" would have been Brigette Bako doing double-duty as a ne'erdowell as that's where my mind went. Suspense effectively built for Dino...

From VftE, sounds like Travis' camerawoman may have a future role. Intriguing.

Lovely see Mary back -- odd two issues after "Phoenix" for her to show up like this but I guess it puts new and old readers in the same boat waiting for clarificationn. I do have a lot of questions but it's - frustratingly - right to keep things vague for the time being as the concept of the time dancing hasn't even been mentioned yet. Shari's familiarity with her does make me wonder why Mary appeared in "Bash" as well. Brooklyn must have been able to give at least the year of his disappearance so why show up to the Eyrie so early...? Hmm.

George Kambadais aced that page of Elisa being overwhelmed by the gas - the low angle, the energetic panel arrangement - stunning!

"This wee gargoyle"! Amazing character-based humour. And let's be honest - sitcoms are doing well if they raise three chuckles an act so all credit to Greg that he's delivering the comedy here.

I feel a bit sorry for Dr Sato who doesn't look overjoyed to be lugged around by Broadway. Feels a bit disrespectful really.

So great to see Xanatos on top form. Talon accosting Xanatos is... well... very much Derek's MO, but frankly with the amount of people in the Labyrinth and the fact that Maggie would have been showing for months, the idea that it's some secret to the clan seems a reach. Surely Talon knows people talk? Then again, Xanatos' idea of doing a favour for Coldstone and Coldfire was "Possession" so even if he's maybe, maybe not quite the stone-cold "Metamorphosis" Xanatos of yesteryear, it totally makes sense that he's a suspect.

It makes for a cliffhanger that's hard to feel too strongly about but I'm liking the more gentle ramp-up in the comic.

Lots of brilliant stuff. I will say there were a couple of very minor parts of both the writing and art that nagged at me a little on first reading.

1. Angela's narration disappeared for a long time. I really wanted to get under her skin but she was absent for 11 pages and I didn't necessarily feel at the end I really got into her head like we got into Elisa's. A pity.

2. Part of that was the choice to do a flashback within a narration. It felt a little Russian-dollsy but also it gave the issue a slightly weird pace where we jump-cut to the Labyrinth, flashed back, flashed forward then jumped forward again papered over by a line of narration. It felt a bit jarring to me first time.

3. I was more interested in the characters unpicking the whodunit mystery and seeing their assessments of Xanatos than seeing a lot of the specifics of the attack. Very unusual use of the passive: "a consensus was reached". I get why Greg went this route - you can't discuss Xanatos too much before introducing him and the action scene has more bang for the buck. Also, I strongly suspect Angela is being diplomatic and we may even see the actual scene next week as a way to explore people's views on Xanatos. But, for now, I felt like we missed the really juicy bit.

4. Vince Gilligan has this idea that whenever the audience knows more than a character they can't on some level not think less of the characters' intelligence even when this is unfair. I was never convinced of that but I can kind of see the point here. We know Thailog is responsible - we've known since last issue he's behind whatever happens next - so it makes Talon look doubly... well, Talon-like... to accost Xanatos straight out (has that EVER worked?). I'm sure there's another twist to come but basically the mystery for us isn't "whodunit" but "what does Thailog want with a child" (which isn't even alluded to here). Again, I can imagine why Greg went this route - partly because it's not very satisfying if Thailog were introduced in #3 as "oh and here's the bad guy" and partly because there's a lot of foreshadowing about a threat to Eggwardo and potentially a whodunit story could be played in that.

5. Maggie is almost completely a cypher at this point, interesting narratively only for her baby. Mary does all the heavy lifting in this plot - has Maggie even had two lines in the comic so far? I know Maggie's not exactly famous for her backbone but I really want to see her show at least some agency in the next issue as there's something a little icky about a pregnant woman being used a MacGuffin. Again, I realise it's completely a space thing and it's understandable but I really hope it's in service of a payoff to come and not just an oversight in a crowded script.

As for the art - which, again, is terrific - there are a couple of moments where I wasn't as convinced as usual.

First, the flashback page. Putting panel-boundaries marking time on a larger tableau is an old technique and a great one - I think Greg did it in "The Journey" as well. But the layout here doesn't lead the eye and the red boxes are so garish that I thought for a second it was a mistake.

Then the panel of Erin collapsing where her back is the panel boundary also felt a bit odd to me. I got it but for the briefest moment I was interpreting what I was seeing instead of involved in the momentum which kind of took me from the issue. The resistance to using traditional panel borders is one of George Kambadais' strengths but here I feel that giving us a traditional panel showing him falling would have worked better.

Now having said all that, let's be totally clear so the tail doesn't wag the dog in these comments -- I LOVE what Greg and George are doing. These are tiny points.

And I actually kind of love that things like this leap out to me. Because more than anything else I admire the AMBITION.

Flashbacks in narrations, skipping the interstitial bits, panels within panels, extreme low angles, extreme close-ups, breaking down panel borders... this is NOT a comic that plays safe and colours within the lines.

It's experimental, it's tricksy, it's bold, it asks the reader to connect the dots and doesn't dwell on the interstitial bits. I love that. That doesn't mean I think it always works perfectly but treating the property like a China vase being carried across an icy floor would be clearly wrong too. That means they may grind the guardrails sometimes but that, to me, is a really promising thing.

The character work in this issue, the COMEDY, those amazing splashes, some of the great action work -- the issue is gangbusters stuff and I'm delighted to be reading it.

And, great news, issue #3 is only 3 weeks away!


B: Interesting point about Dino... Sevarius has to put that plesiosaur DNA to some use!

Interesting discussions on the pacing question. I had a flip through.

Roughly 3 pages is given over to key scenes for new readers - an Angela intro page and a gargoyles awakening double-page splash.

4 pages are given to the Dracon subplot. I'm really interested personally but with such limited space I can see people finding it a distraction. (Also, I do kind of miss the old format that you'd do the subplots for characters when you get to them even if, as in "Double Jeopardy", it means backfilling events later.)

There are 3 pages with really good development of Hudson, Gnash, Lex, Brooklyn, Katana and Fu-dog although not to do with the A-plot.

That leaves 12 pages for the main plot but I guess because of the flashback structure, we spend most of the middle of the issue catching up to where we were on page 8.

What I did notice is the large number of splash pages or even double-page splashes. This isn't too unusual in American comics but definitely makes it a quicker read. I'd have to look back to SLG to see if there were big splashes. There certainly were some - many of the first pages of issues if I recall - but the only double-page spread I can place off the top of my head was the Battle of Rathveramoen. Not sure if this is my imagination; and if it isn't, whether it's an editorial suggestion or playing to George Kambadais' evident strengths, or just the way Greg felt like playing it. In some senses, it's necessary because of the many large-cast scenes.

(Incidentally, I started responding before listening to the podcast and evidently Greg's conscious of the splash situation as he mentions it as a way of making sure the scenes breathe and have the maximum drama. I mean, I love that "Invitation Only" didn't give a double-page splash to the clan awakening but I think it makes complete sense for Dynamite to show it in this issue). [/SPOILER]

And it's Christmas morning because another Voices from the Eyrie has dropped. Funnily enough I was thinking that a fan-focused VftE would be amazing especially to give credit to heroes like Gorebash and so this was a particular surprise and delight. And nice one to Gore for highlighting the Patreon - rather embarrassingly, I'd got so used to skipping past the narration I'd forgotten such a thing existed until Greg B's opening spiel.

So many tidbits both about the fandom (never knew the origin of Greg B's X or Greg W's first Gathering introduction) and some great reflections on the book. Also Greg teased something for the 30th which... well, now I'm going to spend the next 20 months rigorously keeping my hype in check.

[SPOILER] Greg B's take that Tony's worry about Dino was that he would lose control of the business was certainly my first thought after #1 but after #2 and his "burn" comment I'm wondering if it's more that the guy is just completely off the leash - someone who can't be controlled or reasoned with or even civilised. Put it this way: if Greg B's right (and I think he is) that the Dracon family are a parallel to the clan... what would the Demona of that family look like?

Which brings me to some maths.

The clan currently has eleven members capable of speech: Goliath, Elisa, Hudson, the Trio, Angela, Katana, Gnash, Coldstone and Coldfire. There are twelve issues in "Here in Manhattan" and we know they'll all have different narrators. Doesn't have to be the clan - could be Tony or Fox or Mary for all we know - but it feels logical that the clan would get their turn. Now we could get the Bronx and Fu-Dog issues where it's all barks and whines... or... there's a twelfth slot. I'd be happy with Amp but... let's be honest... I think we all know who the real crowdpleaser would be... [/SPOILER]

Todd: Congratulations on your podcast marathon! Great that you can react in real-time now.


Thanks for telling me, Jurgan. I just checked, and it's a really long one, too - just over two hours. And it includes Christine Morgan and Karine Charlebois as guests, alongside Greg Weisman, so it certainly seems worth listening to.

CHIP - [SPOILER] It's been a while since I heard of anyone defending the Goliath Chronicles, especially that vigorously. [/SPOILER]

Todd Jensen

Sorry, Todd, a new episode just dropped!
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Just finished listening to the "Voices from the Eyrie" podcast on "City of Stone Part Four". (It also includes a memoriam for Kevin Conroy, a moving tribute, I thought.) A great discussion, as ever, and I recommend it. It ends with some really hopeful talk about "Gargoyles", with so much coming out.

And now I'll be enjoying a bit of a breather, after listening to 28 podcasts in the last month or so. Caught up at last.

Todd Jensen

[SPOILER] This was an interesting issue, I'm glad that we're seeing more of Brooklyn and Katana and how their relationship is like. I once theorized that because of the Time Dancing, Brooklyn, Katana, G'nash and Fu Dog didn't have much of a stable clan unit and so because of those circumstances G'nash is a bit closer to his parents than is traditional.

I bring this up because it looks like he's going through the "older sibling acts coldly to the baby because that's where all the family attention is going towards." And I'm curious on how this will play out. In the meantime, it looks like Hudson will be mentoring the young lad, that'll be fun.

For the Talon/Xanatos confrontation, I think Xanatos was being genuine in his congratulations, but because he has a naturally smug tone around him it came off as rubbing in Talon's face. That's just my interpretation. Actually, if this leads to Xanatos and perhaps Fox joining in on the manhunt it could lead to some fun interaction.

And finally we have the Dracon family drama. Dino's been hyped up as someone who's beyond bad news, I hope when he does show up he lives up to the reputation that's been building. There's some speculation on why kind of villain he'll be and I'm imagining a Tommy DeVito sort of character. One who's dangerous because of his unpredictable violence. [/SPOILER]

Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Jurgan—I was already posting an Apology when you posted, but I apologize again, regardless. It wasn’t intended to be rude.
Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]

Oh, another good example of the Chosen One trope being questioned is Moana. Near the end, in her lowest moment, the spirit of her grandmother apologizes for putting all that weight on her and tells her that they'll all still love her even if she doesn't complete her quest. Lindsay Ellis contrasted this with Disney's Pocahontas, which has a similar story beat but the grandmother character insists she has no choice but to keep going.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

[SPOILER] I apologize, it wasn’t intended to be rude, but I see why it could be taken that way. I may still have a bit of a ME on my shoulder, after Erod’s review a few days ago where he told everyone that didn’t like The Goliath Chronicles to “choke on a Jalapeño”, so may subconsciously more hostile than I myself would like to be. So, apologies again Jurgan [/SPOILER]
Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]

Chip, you are coming off rude, and I don't appreciate it. My trades of the SLG comics are wrapped in plastic; they're apparently very rare and I want to keep them in good condition. I'm going to buy and reread when they are released. In the meantime, I'm going off memories from around 15 years ago.

As for the issue itself, [SPOILER] all I can say is I got to the end and thought "that's it, it's over?" I don't have it in my hands right now, but the only real plot development I can think of is "Maggie has been kidnapped and Dominic is out of custody." For the latter, it's more set-up than action, for the former, I would have liked to actually see it. As for Talon, I'm not saying it's out of character- he always makes incredibly poor decisions when it comes to Xanatos. I'm more surprised that Elisa went along with it- I assume she knew that she couldn't stop him and, in classic big sisterly fashion, figured she should at least be there to watch him. [/SPOILER]

Antiyonder, responding to your "chosen one" discussion from last week. I had forgotten there was a NIMH 2 movie. I read one of the sequel books which was totally unrelated. Some company was building a dam that was going to flood the valley, so Timothy teamed up with Jenner's previously-unseen son to destroy it before it was finished. It was an okay story, but not as engaging as the original, no doubt because it was not by the original author.

As for Harry Potter, that ended up being a Macbeth or Oedipus style self-fulfilling prophecy. There was a prophecy, Voldemort heard about it and went to kill him, inadvertently setting in motion the chain of events that led to Harry killing him. But it was stated that one of Harry's classmates could have been the Chosen One if things had shaken out differently, so the message was basically "the concept of the Chosen One has exactly as much weight as other characters in the world give it."

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

re:Gargoyles #2

Chip> [SPOILER] While I agree with the sentiments, I think you came off a bit rude to Jurgan in the first and third paragraphs and I would feel guilty if I didn't say so. We don't want to discourage people from posting here. [/SPOILER]

Craig, Jurgan> [SPOILER] I found this issue exciting, and more so than the first one, but people vary in their level of patience for a format that has limited space and relies on anticipation for what happens next. Perhaps the story will be better served when it's a trade paperback. Meanwhile, I keep looking forward to each month's new issue. Personally, I've found the synopses vague. [/SPOILER]


Re: Gargoyles #2, in response to Jurgan and Chip.

[SPOILER] It is rather unfortunate that by nature of promoting the book and giving synopses (something Greg is clearly very uncomfortable with, in terms of revealing plot points in advance, but also obviously a necessity in getting the book sold), we ended up knowing pretty much this issue's entire story in advance, which may be why Jurgan found it somewhat predictable or uneventful. It's like the difference between seeing Macbeth in the "Previously on Gargoyles" vs. being surprised by the reveal of the character in the episode itself (an error Greg has admitted to on "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time"), or seeing Brooklyn's Timedancer jump when we already knew it was coming due to Ask Greg as opposed to how shocking it would have been if we'd had no idea in advance. Hopefully as the story builds momentum, there will be more surprises that aren't spoiled by the pre-release blurbs.


Jurgan—[SPOILER] Man nothing happened in this comic, except all of the things that happened in this comic. I don’t know what book you’re reading, but this story was very incredibly jam packed with stuff happening; especially compared to the Darkwing Duck comic that came out on the same day, where nothing ACTUALLY Happened.

For Talon; though he is half-cocked as usual, it’s not an unreasonable conclusion to jump to: Xanatos has a history of messing with him. He has no reason at all to suspect Thailog, who he’s met a total of twice.

As for Mary—I don’t understand how you could possibly ‘forget’ that she was in the SLG run when she was one of the leads for three issues, as well as background cameoing in another issue. Perhaps you should take this as a sign to reread the SLG run, if you’ve forgotten so much. The answer is: we know she and Finella left with Brooklyn at the end of the Battle of Rathvermoen in Phoenix, but we don’t know where and how they parted ways. [/SPOILER]

Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]

Todd Jensen> Thanks for the well wishes for Burns Night! My father is Scottish (Mom is Dutch) and I spent what would have been kindergarten in the US in Scotland. We used to visit our relatives in Scotland and/or Holland every summer before the pandemic.

Jurgan> re:Gargoyles #2 [SPOILER] Yes, Mary and Finella were in the SLG comics. The last arc of the comics involved Brooklyn going back to their time and helping them out. In the last issue, the three of them were caught up in the Phoenix's wake. That was the last time we saw Brooklyn before skipping ahead to him coming back to the present day years later (from his perspective) with Katana, Fu Dog and the kids. So Brooklyn dropping Mary and Finella off in the 1970s happened early on in his timedancing. [/SPOILER]

One other Gargoyles #2 thought:
Derek continues his streak of terrible decisions. "It must be Xanatos who's responsible!" Sure. Though he was more hands-on than before, actually lifting Xanatos off the ground. Mr. X might need to take this a little more seriously.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Okay, Gargoyles #2:

Is something eventually going to happen in these comics? I was okay with the first issue being a low stakes reintroduction to the characters, but this is the second act and very little happened that we didn't already know. We knew Thailog was going to kidnap Maggie, and in the issue he does it off screen. We knew the Dracon family was planning to start a gang war, and now we meet a few new members of the family. Tony and Toni and Dino, I guess coming up with names back then was hard. (Hat tip to Trans-Siberian Orchestra's "Beethoven's Last Night.) There's not even a fight with The Archmage on the beach!

There are a few bits I liked. Katana finding out Eggwardo was "a joke name" was funny, gives a hint at their relationship. I also like how unfazed Mary was at meeting Brentwood. She's the midwife, so I'm assuming she was a midwife in the Middle Ages and they picked her to help because she's aware of gargoyles existing already. Do we know how Mary got there? I mean, we know from AG that Brooklyn brought her with time travel, but has that been shown on-panel? If she was in the SLG comic, I don't remember, but maybe it's for the best that we don't get bogged down with her backstory.

Overall, this was disappointing. I need this story to go somewhere.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Thanks Todd, reminds me of Futurama when Fry met Dr. Zoidberg for the first time.

Fry : Uh... is there a human doctor around?

Dr. Zoidberg : Young lady, I am an expert on humans. Now pick a mouth, open it and say "brglgrglgrrr"!
Fry : Uh... brglgrglgrglgrrr!
Dr. Zoidberg : What? My mother was a saint! Get out!

Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Thanks for the latest episode review, Matthew.

One of my favorite moments in this one was where Hooty tells King about how some demons communicate by dancing, King gives it a try, and Hooty immediately cries in fury "How dare you say that about my mother?"

Todd Jensen

Hooty's just trying his best. And also his worst too.

Watched "Knock, Knock, Knockin' on Hooty's Door" today which is the first Hooty-centered episode. Hooty's kind of an odd duck...owl. He's supposed to be a demon but we haven't seen any other home or building based demons and Hooty only somewhat qualifies under the Bug description because of his wormy shape. He mostly pops in to spout non sequiturs and be a nuisance to others, but he's also much more emotionally aware than others give him credit for and can fend off regular attacks from the Emperor's Coven without even trying. While still being a nuisance.

I like to think that Hooty's relationship with Lilith helped him become a bit more attentive to his friends, sort of kind of. I like that even while he's unintentionally helping them he's still clueless enough to think he's made things worse. And while things didn't turn out anywhere near what he expected he did help the trio out in a distinct way. Instead of getting her some proper rest, Eda was forced to confront her more uncomfortable memories and the fact that she constantly pushed other people away because of her curse. And even though neither side likes it, she and the Owl Beast are tied to one another and the best they can do is work together. Luz was embarrassed as you can imagine by Hooty's Tunnel of Love, but misguided as it was, it actually led to the two talking about their feelings instead of the constant dodging back and forth between the two of them. And King? Well, they might not have settled on which of the B's he is. But he has unlocked a power of his own and all because Hooty was just being his normal, friendly and annoying self. Shame he ate that letter though.

Some final thoughts. Hooty's demon checklist was hilarious, the pocket monster and cartoon checks are especially meta considering King is almost certainly inspired by Cubone. I was half expecting the twist at the end to be that Hooty's letter is illegible because he types with his face and Lilith needed a spell to translate it. So Eda's got a harpy look now, I will say she does pull it off quite well, and a nice vocal reverb too. One thing I noticed is a discrepancy, the captions for Disney+ list Raine off as "him" but the transcript on the wiki list it as "them." I understand this sort of mix up happens all the time on captions, but I hope it's fixed in the future, or in future episodes.

Favorite Lines:

Lilith: Hello, Hootsifer. Your letter concerned me. You write of feeling unimportant while Luz, Eda and King are off on adventures. But, Hooty, you are the Owl House. You take care of everyone inside you. If that isn't a worthy purpose, then what is?

Hooty: Are you angry? Sweaty? Is there hair in places? Does your voice crack in a super embarrassing way? I have the answers you seek...You're going through demon puberty!

Eda: You've haunted me long enough, birdbrain. I think it's time for me to haunt you.


Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Good news about #2 being available in the UK>

And happy Burns Night to the comment room (given that most of the gargoyles - and some of the human cast - are Scottish, it seems appropriate).

Todd Jensen

And finally... having been checking all day... #2 is up to buy in the UK. Thank goodness. I'll post thoughts another time but it's a great issue as you'd expect.

Ed> Thank goodness, I was getting worried TPTB were going to pull early cancellation/huge hiatus shenanigans on us again.

B - I confess that I always spell it "Selene", the way it was spelled in Greek mythology.

ED - That's good news.

Todd Jensen

Woo hoo! Gargoyles #1 and pre-orders for #3 are back on the UK store! No sign of #2 yet but surely it can't be too far behind...

Todd Jensen> Sorry, it was Antiyonder's idea that [SPOILER] Gus would encourage Luz with an illusion [/SPOILER], I misremembered it as yours.

Yes, it was interesting that Seline (spelled with an I in Gargoyles, BTW, rather than the traditional "Selene"), the sister who represents Vengeance, appeared by herself in that scene.


Phoenician > Thanks for the update. I just checked, and Gargoyles #2 is back up to buy on Amazon US, and my version has been corrected.

For those who haven’t seen it, here’s the great Kambadais cover, which I very much hope to track down: https://forbiddenplanet.com/372813-gargoyles-2-cover-g-kambadais-original-variant/


B - [SPOILER] Thanks. I still need to get around to rewatching that scene, but it's a bit pleasant to note that the Echo Mouse didn't die after all - apparently. Though I'm puzzled about your mention of an idea I'd had involving Willow and the flowers. Could you explain what that one was, please? [/SPOILER]

Just finished listening to the "Voices from the Eyrie" podcast on "City of Stone Part Three" - which also included a short discussion of #1 of the "Gargoyles" comic. One of the big topics for that segment was Goliath's unwitting Batman quote - which was all the funnier thanks to accompanying voice-clips from a certain scene in "Batman Beyond".

I was also amused to see how much Shakespeare cropped up in the "City of Stone" discussion itself - alongside "Macbeth", obviously, Bodhe's advice to kill Canmore is compared to Richard III, and there's a mention of Selene (the dark-haired Weird Sister) getting her "pound of flesh". Again, if you haven't heard this podcast series, I highly recommend it.

Todd Jensen

Yeah I did catch that. Mostly chalked that up to Eda's usual dark sense of humor as a coping mechanism, in this case that she got her hopes up that her magic was returning through music only for things to turn bad again.
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Matthew> Did you get that Eda called that variation of "Raine's Rhapsody" that she played "Eda's Requiem" because of its destructive effects? I also thought it makes sense as a nostalgic tune for her and Raine's relationship, even though that's not the in-universe reason for the name.

Todd Jensen> Owl House "For the Future" [SPOILER] Yes, Gus said it was a "dire rat". It also looks fiercer and more rat-like than an Echo Mouse even as a skeleton, and it apparently it counted as spoiled food and was in the pantry, whereas an Echo Mouse is treated with a bit more care.

I noted that Gus did use illusion to encourage someone almost like that idea you had, with Willow and the flowers. [/SPOILER]


My digital copy of Gargoyles #2, "Idyll or Nightmare" has been corrected, with no action needed on my part it seems. I just refreshed the page just a moment ago, and yay. :)

Will be picking up my physical copies tomorrow. Won't be hunting for as many covers as #1, but I am keen to find the G Cover by George Kambadais that's been admired by others here d:

Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."

Just listened to the "Voices from the Eyrie" podcast on "City of Stone Part Two". A lot of great material in it; Tuppence McIntyre was a guest alongside Greg Weisman, and there was much discussion about the historical research that went into the Macbeth story. (That was one of my favorite aspects of "Gargoyles", the early Scottish history element.)

There's also a neat bit about how Goliath left Broadway in charge of the "turned-to-stone" Elisa at the clock tower while he and the other gargoyles went out to investigate; Broadway's the one who showed so much concern for Elisa ever since he accidentally shot her in "Deadly Force" that he was the logical gargoyle for the role. I can't remember if I'd noticed it before or not, but it certainly made sense to me.

ANTIYONDER - [SPOILER] So it was a different kind of mouse native to the Boiling Isles? I'll have to rewatch that scene again. [/SPOILER]

Todd Jensen

Thanks for the comments about Raine and Eda. Not sure if that's something I might've missed in the episode or whether it's something that becomes much more obvious in a future episode.

Antiyonder> I couldn't give any kind of position on Strawberry Shortcake. I remember more about its parodies than the franchise itself.

Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Todd Jensen and B> Read my previous post first.

[SPOILER] Heck, when you look at it, his creation of the Grimwalkers and eventually Hunter, plus his treatment alone helps to show how much he is a monster:

1. As mentioned again, creating them not only required host DNA, but said host to be dead.

And resources which have been decreased, a species now extinct and one possibly endangered.

2. His facade included treating some forms of magic as wrong/illegal when a Grimwalker created (not the person themselves) is something likely taboo for rightful reasons.

And as such, gives one like Hunter reasons not his fault to feel guilty and shameful for existing.

3. We might have thought there would be moral outrage on his part in Hunting Palisman if he caught wind of Kikimora offing Hunter. So maybe not or only cause he needs some of him to make another.


4. If we take his word that Hunter has been the most loyal one? Oh boy. Let's imagine a world where Luz never ended up in the Isles or going back in time while aside from the one helping Philip to become Belos everything up to Luz preparing for camp is still valid history.

So basically without her influence he will now be the most loyal to the end. Remer that he had his Coven Sigil on since Hunting Palisman?

Death is his reward.

Heck, even in a Luzless BI where in the end the DoU and Hunter does see the error of his own way, what then?

He now has to cope with hurting others cause of a man who he thought loved him instead misled him and would leave him to die.

But now he doesn't have anyone raring to adopt him. I mean some people without Luz's involvement are worse off and less likely to see him as a fellow victim.

No Luz, Willow, Gus, Amity, Skara, Viney or even Flapjack to give him a healthy relationship.

Even Amity had the library staff and kids she read for.

And in a sense, besides the lack of a future for the Clawthorne family?

I mean Belos killing Caleb and even using his corpse to make a better version of him meant that Evelyn and their child plus the family after don't even have a piece of mind that he is resting in well peace.


Todd Jensen and B> So some bit on For the Future including Todd's recent comment and plus how the episode relates to a discussion I have been having elsewhere. Also some of the discussion itself.

[SPOILER] Also looking forward to Matthew's later responses to later episodes though I might have to clarify some when he is there.

Mainly Darius and Eberwolf's allegiance, and the twisted reason behind hunting a harmless creature which would be bad enough alone.

1. I think the rodent corpse was said by Gus to be a dirt rat, but we may or may not see.

2. But oh yes, Belos.

So he isn't even for the sake of it, but depending on how you look at it, a Complete Monster villain is a means to do something close in a less comedic narrative (ala Darkwing Duck).

Haven't brought it up outside Ask Greg cause it requires our bit on how he is close in some ways to John Castaway. Only Jon/John had some compassion for Gargoyles, at least didn't deliberately aim to well shoot his brother.

Plus even if we feel for her, Demona is at least a target that is guilty.

Especially if Evelyn was Philip's first major target if not actually succeeding beforehand at witch killing and hopefully not killing a human he mistook as a witch.

But yeah, Season 1 even with the not so surprising refusal to cure Eda and for all intents leaving her for dead (Like how Goliath requesting to be put under the sleep spell was by design suicide), I wasn't expecting him before that to become a redeemed baddie. What did you two think of by Season 1's end on where he would go?

And I'm not even complaining, just that I think he is a good case of presenting us with a villain who isn't heavily evil (maybe), but as we see more and more details revealed any humanity is stripped away both figuratively and literally.

Evil enough to hunt a harmless creature, but one might figure it's for profit at least and not part of playing God (A religious conservative being a hypocrite. Go figureXD).

Even if he didn't get worse after Hunting Palisman and was even a magic curse victim, I would still find it wrong if Hunter didn't cut ties with him, but again still wasn't sure what to make of him.

Yes I'm referring to when we linked him to Philip, but for all we know, his curse might have been an unfortunate affliction which corrupted a once noble mind.

Going out of order for a moment, say Dana gets to do some Prequel stuff in comics. Think Philip would get some humanity prior to finding his bro hooked up with a witch? Or that he was worse.

Not 1:1 comparisons, but think like TSSM Norman Osborn who is a a bad person even before the totally not insanity inducing serum.XD. Or the comic book version of the BTAS episode Mad Love showing that Harley seduced some professors to get her recommendations for Arkham.

But yeah. The curse was his own decision, and his brother was willing to make things work.

Whether the Grimwalkers were originally to have his brother back, just stripped of his individuality is all(XD) or it was a sadistic need to kill his brother over and over again.

Halting the petrification of Luz in King's Tide wasn't cause Luz found any humanity to appeal to in him, but his vanity.

Namely how since Hollow Mind he insisted that Luz calls him Philip as he didn't hear that name for centuries which she does. Even then it seems he delays halting the petrification just to see her in fear.

And yeah, see when meet her as Philip when he just knew her (or assumed) as Luzura, he wrote her off from their very first meeting until seeing her centuries later when discovering she is a human corrupted by the Isles.

Now if he had been more reflective, he would realize that he the evil being he wrote off is already corrupted beyond saving or that good and evil is present in both races.

But he doesn't.

Upon possessing Raine in FtF, as the Fringe Horror section of tropes suggested, he shouldn't know about King being associated with The Collector, unless he is privy to all of Raine's memories.

So he should now be able to recognize that this particular witch isn't evil. Think about Lex Luthor and Brainiac having combined in JLU's Divided We Fall. Brainiac originally dismisses listening to Lex due to organic beings being hard to trust. Lex bringing up that if they are truly one, then trust shouldn't be an issue.

Yep, Belos has more proof besides my take on him seeing Luzura again and even living among the Isles for years.

Eddie Brock at least when he didn't immediately reconsider his anger against Peter in TSSM at least had a symbiote messing with his mind.

Belos being able to recognize the truth and his wasted years is a no-go.




MATTHEW - Thanks for the latest review. Evidently "magic technology" in the Boiling Isles is developing at much the same rate as regular technology on Earth, judging from the streaming remark.

And Raine's attack of stage fright at the press conference (to the point where Darius has to call "Cut") is one of the funniest moments in the episode. With the most charming moment being King wanting to adopt "Clawthorne" for his surname. (And, yes, keep an eye on the guy who looks like a grown-up version of King.)

Speaking of "The Owl House", [SPOILER] did anyone else notice that, when Luz and the others returned to the Owl House in "For the Future", the Echo Mouse was apparently dead? I assume it starved with nobody there to feed it. (The kind of thing that makes me all the more glad that Broadway brought Cagney to the clock tower during the World Tour to look after.) I can't help feeling, by the way, that it was especially daring of a Disney cartoon to kill a mouse. [/SPOILER]

A thought on the Fleecs covers of the "Gargoyles" comic, which all feature the gargoyles interacting with dogs. With the cover for #5 just revealed, I'm wondering who'll be on the cover for #6. Hudson or Lexington? (They'd have priority, as being from the original series from its beginning.) If we get more Fleecs covers past #6 (hoping that the comic does well enough to continue past that), I wonder if we'd get one with Demona - presumably she and a mean-looking dog snarling at each other.

Todd Jensen

Matthew> And in relation to Masterdramon's comment, yeah Eda is Bi. Actually did think Raine might have been a girlfriend. Oh not upon seeing Eda's Requiem.

But if you look at some of Eda's stuff in Wing it Like Witches, you see a picture with young Lilith along with young Eda and an obscure but close appearance to Mx. Whispers.

Incidentally cause I love some puns, much like how I approve of an NB Equine having Neigh as pronoun, I think any character from Strawberry Shortcake who is Bi, is better with the Pansexual term.XD


Just FYI, Raine is non-binary and uses they/them pronouns.

Enjoyable review as always.

Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"It can be a hobby, or really, anything else, but I love when people have fun doing what they love. It’s like they’re sparkling." - Marin Kitagawa

The Owl Lady deals with an empty nest and some Bat folk squeak their protest.

Watched "Eda's Requiem" today, an interesting title choice considering requiem's are generally done for those who have passed on and we didn't have anything like that in this episode...yet.

So in this episode we're properly introduced to another field of magic, the bardic style (apparently you don't need strong charisma for it to work though). Funny that we're now just seeing it, given Eda's past about not wanting to be tied down to one style of magic of magic or coven. But it seems that her music playing might be a more personal thing, for a very certain reason. Her whole past relationship with Raine is pretty interesting; Eda's been an up-front and center troublemaker since childhood and Raine a stage fright-ridden fellow who looks like he wants to avoid trouble. But things have also changed for the two; besides genuinely opening up and caring about others, Eda's sticking it to authority not just for her own amusement but for the benefit of others. And Raine is no longer content to just keep his head down and ignore the problems around him, but to gather others to a cause of freeing others from an oppressive regime. Albeit behind a mask, but the point still stands.

It actually makes quite a bit of sense, in dictatorial regimes, it's always intellectuals and the arts that are suppressed and therefore why prominent members of the Bard would strike back. And it makes sense that Eda and Raine would have such a strong connection, buried beneath plenty of bravado or insecurities are two good people who want to help others and do the right thing.

Luz and King have their own fun little subplot. While rewatching the episode, it occurred to me that in another kind of kid's show, the big race and whether the parental figure would be able to show up and watch, would be the central focus of the episode. And while it is a big part of things and a huge factor on King's growing anxiety over meeting his dad. There are more important things going on in the Boiling Isles right now with Emperor Belos his plan with the Covens and magic itself. Of course, had they actually won Eda wouldn't have been there to witness their arrival, so maybe missing out on the podium was a better way to avoid hurt feelings for everyone. Plus, it might be that King's dad saw the message anyway...

To conclude, I'd like to bring up the Covens and their part in all of this. Back in season one I wondered whether the brands had some sinister connotations with them, turns out yes they do. And can be used to subdue or possibly even control those who have them. This brings up some dark problems, last episode the heads of the Covens seemed almost enraptured by the vision of the Day of Unity and may not be under their full faculties when you consider their brands. On the other hand, if they are fully aware of their actions and Darius and Eberwolf are going about this by their own free will, then the Covens might just be worse than I imagined if they're willing to fake enslaving people (and actually enslave people) just to draw out a few rebels. Either way, it looks like our heroes have more than just the Emperor's Coven to worry about...

Some final thoughts. Really, Hooty? The Guardian of Ga'Hoot? Getting that one escaped prisoner from the Conformatorium was a deep pull, shame she ended back there again. And Eda's magic almost looked like it was returning for a second, I wonder if that or the use of spreading her curse around like that is going to show up again in the future.

Favorite Lines:

Luz: All right, King. What's the first thing you're gonna do when you meet your dad.
King: Aaand 10,000. Well, once we're done training, I'm gonna move out of that closet, that's for sure. Then I'm gonna ugly cry. Hard!

Luz: All right, King. The Gland Prix is the day after tomorrow. Are you ready?
King: I, uh, got the jitters. I still haven't been able to talk to Eda.
Luz: Don't worry. She's just been busy this week.
Hooty: You've always got Uncle Hooty's shoulder to lean on!
King: You don't have any shoulders!
Hooty: Lean on me!

Raine: Eda? Do you have kids??
Eda: Uh, well, they're not "mine" mine. It doesn't matter. They both have real families to return to.
(Raine magics away Eda's mandolin and the spreading curse dissipates)
Raine: I don't know what you're running from, but a great witch once told me...something about punching fears in the face? What I'm trying to say is, don't give up so easily. They probably need you more than you realize.

King: Eda, who's even going to watch this?
Eda: No one watches crystal balls anymore. It's all about streaming.
King: All right. Hi, Dad. If you're out there watching this, I uh, want to introduce myself. I like cheesy foods and conquering kingdoms. Though I haven't conquered any of my own yet. But maybe you have, and we can compare notes. I'd love to meet you. We could do parent kid stuff, toss a ball, burn some cookies, catch me going on weird websites or something. Also, I found a symbol in the tower I hatched in. King: Maybe you can teach me to read it. I live with my favorite human and a cranky old witch.
Eda: (Offscreen) Hey!
King: But cranky or not, she's the one who raised me, which is why I am le... (Pulls out a stack of papers) ..gally changing my name to King Clawthorne! Hahaha! Surprise, Eda! Now we're connected for life, and there's nothing you can do about it!

Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]