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The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending March 26, 2023

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I looked up that proposed but rejected story, by the way, and they did indeed say that the modern-day descendant of Robin Hood would indeed have been given a similar characterization to Lupin III, who (I picked up in a bit of research) was an anime grandson of Arsene Lupin - suggesting, in turn, that his motive would have been more thrill-seeking than wealth redistribution.
Todd Jensen

It's possible that in it, the motive of the modern-day Merry Men would have been less "rob the rich to give to the poor" and more the thrill of pitting themselves against something as well-defended as Scrooge McDuck's money bin - the ultimate challenge to their skills. Don Rosa introduced a new antagonist in his Scrooge McDuck stories - loosely modeled on Arsene Lupin, though I'll have to look that up to make certain - with a similar motive.
Todd Jensen

The idea of the descendants of Robin Hood's Merry Men showing up in Ducktales is a fascinating one to be sure, but the execution of it would need some serious work.

For starters, there's no way a company like Disney is ever going to go all out and say that billionaires or beyond that shouldn't exist, that might send the wrong message to young viewers and make them less likely to visit the park.

The other part lies within the lore of Ducktales and Scrooge himself. As pointed out, Scrooge has made mistakes in his business dealings and in his past in treasuring hunting (some clever rewrites made those moments the low points of his life and cost him dearly when it came to his family relationships). At the same time, Scrooge makes it a point of pride that he makes all of his money fair and square and unlike the traditional image of the super wealthy, isn't content to just bask in his riches. He's out there exploring new ventures and enterprises and usually willing to put his life and rep on the line for his exploration. Putting his money where his bill is, so to speak.

And this runs in direct opposition to the Robin Hood mythos, which at its core is about the rebel fighting against the oppressive rich, the nobility that exploit and abuse the lowest in society. Even the nobles that oppose the exploitation like Maid Marian or Richard at the Lee, are generally in a position where they can't do anything to stop the inhumanity committed by the likes of the Sheriff of Nottingham or Prince John.

Scrooge may complain up a storm during payday, but it's usually depicted that he pays his employees fair and generously. Which means that narratively speaking, Robin's descendants wouldn't have any reason to come into conflict with him. Now the 2017 Ducktales had no shortage of rotten businessmen like Glomgold or Mark Beakes, so I could easily see Robin's band going against them. But that wouldn't leave much room for the Scrooge and his family in the episode.

Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

My condolences on Michael Reeves' passing.
Gargoyles need not apply.

Margot herself had an actual conversation with the gargoyles in City of Stone, and yet she still thinks of them as monsters. Memory is unreliable, especially in stressful situations. I could see a Rashomon style presentation of how the hostage situation looked from her eyes.

Todd: The Robin Hood thing might also get people questioning the morals of someone as rich as Scrooge being allowed to exist. IRL I think someone with that much wealth is almost certainly engaging in all sorts of unethical and exploitative behavior to stay on top, but this is a cartoon world and we want our lead to remain sympathetic. I know there have been occasional stories that call Scrooge out, like one that revisited his relationship with native people in Africa, but AFAIK these are treated as unfortunate moral lapses from a generally good person. Having a group of bandits steal from him with the express purpose of redistributing his massive wealth to the poor would get people asking who the good guy is in that situation.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Craig: I doubt it's an Ashman estate since there are, per imdb, two television episodes with the title. Didn't they also veto Puck having a Mickey Mouse watch? Of course, some references like Elisa's Hallowe'en costumes seemed to be fine. My guess is that the title is so closely associated with "Beauty and the Beast" that they want to prevent generic uses as far as possible to preserve their ownership of the phrase. Or something like that. A bit like how Nintendo had to put out adverts to clarify that games machines weren't "a Nintendo" but had specific names because they were worried their trademark would go the way of "hoover" and just become a generic description rather than their distinct brand. In this case, it's not so much that 'Gargoyles' itself poses a threat to the brand but that if Disney sign off on this kind of use where there's no direct reference back to 'Beauty and the Beast' then other people can use that as a precedent. I mean, it all seems mad, but when your annual revenue is bigger than the GDP of two thirds of the world's countries I guess it pays to be cautious.

Jurgan: [SPOILER] Thing thing that excites me about this plot is that there's no public footage of the gargoyles talking yet. Urban legends, sure, and I guess some people remember the Demona broadcast but there's just no logical reason to think a newly-discovered native Earth animal would be capable of speech and human-level intelligence. That doesn't mean they couldn't be highly intelligent like chimpanzees or dolphins; nor even that they couldn't be trained to respond to human commands and perhaps, like parrots, mimic human sounds. But another intelligent species is a real mind-bender and my hunch is that in the coming issues different people will have vastly different interpretations of Goliath's intelligence (probably commensurate with the amount of time they've spent with him). There's also a logistical issue which is that any human who vouches for Goliath's intelligence and character is likely to become a huge target. Difficult to imagine Elisa or Matt salvaging their careers anytime soon when they've been sitting on information like this - even if there aren't laws to cover what they've done, it's difficult to imagine they haven't submitted reports that are at best evasive and at worst contain flat-out lies. Xanatos is rich enough to get away with almost anything but an ex-con billionaire may not be the spokesperson Goliath wants. Renard, with his reputation for integrity, may have a better case but it's unclear what the public perception of him is like especially after his daughter's own exploits. That's why I love that long game play from Xanatos in "Invitation Only" -- that when he releases evidence that the great and good spent Hallowe'en night hobnobbing with the gargoyles, "only a perfect hypocrite would be able to deny them." (I feel like Margot would volunteer to be that perfect hypocrite). Anyway, it feels like everything could get very messy very quickly. Which is fun. [/SPOILER]


MATTHEW - [They often times keep their television and movie circles separate (unless they're making a tv spin-off of one of their movies).]

I've read that they once thought of doing an episode for the 2017 "DuckTales" where the descendants of Robin Hood and his Merry Men - given the same character designs as in the animated movie, but with modern clothing - would try breaking into Scrooge McDuck's money bin; that wound up getting rejected partly for that reason, partly because they were afraid that the "Modern-day Merry Men" would upstage the regulars.

[SPOILER] The talk about human failure to recognize the gargoyles as intelligent beings ties in with another thought I've had about the differences between the new story in the "Gargoyles" comic and "And Justice For All", beyond just "barely anyone's going to consider putting Goliath on trial", but I'll be saving that for after the room clears. [/SPOILER]

Todd Jensen

Craig> [SPOILER] Technically speaking, dolphins were the second smartest creatures on Earth, the first was mice. Humans only got the bronze. [/SPOILER]
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Jurgan > What I always found bizarre about Disney downplaying their connection to Gargoyles (distributing through the Buena Vista brand, which even appeared in the Marvel Comics copyright notice instead of Disney) is that the show aired as part of The DISNEY Afternoon. I mean, who did they think they were fooling?

[SPOILER] Jurgan's words remind me of the classic Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy bit that explains why dolphins are the most intelligent creatures on Earth. Humans think they're the most intelligent because they accomplished things like the wheel, New York, and war, while the dolphins just muck about in the water. Conversely, it turns out that the dolphins believe they're the most intelligent for exactly the same reasons. We humans have a general tendency to overstate our place in things, and to evaluate other species solely on our own terms, something that inordinately bugs me, as an animal lover.


I think there was fear in the 90's that Gargoyles might be seen as too dark and violent to be associated with the family movies like Beauty and the Beast. IIRC it was distributed through Buena Vista for that reason.

Pete and Rosie being referred to as Romeo and Juliet is fine, though West Side Story is a more direct reference. It also hints that there's a lot of bad blood between these families, which indicates how seriously they're taking the change in circumstances to work together.

I want to discuss the notion of alien intelligences, jumping off the comment that "they're obviously intelligent since they wear clothes." (No offense intended, B, just a thought.) The idea of "sentience" is something that isn't well-defined. If we really did meet a new intelligent species, what kind of self-awareness would they have? One can imagine a being that is capable of adapting to new situations by wearing clothes and the like, yet is utterly incapable of moral reasoning. Would such a creature truly be sentient? Is such a thing even possible? We just don't know. We have never met a truly inhuman intelligence, so all such creatures in speculative fiction are a reflection of ourselves. And if you go back just a couple hundred years (or to the darker corners of the internet today), you can see people confidently claiming that, for instance, black people are naturally subservient and incapable of the same level of reasoning as whites. This despite obvious evidence like them planning escapes to freedom or archaeological evidence of great civilizations that once thrived in Africa. So it's not at all surprising that something truly inhuman would be dismissed as a beast not subject to things like the law. Humans are capable of a great deal of self-deception to avoid admitting our mistakes. Another way that Demona is ironically one of the most human gargoyles.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

I can see the executive logic behind that. They often times keep their television and movie circles separate (unless they're making a tv spin-off of one of their movies). Almost like they treat their movies as too good to be shown in common television shows.
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

CRAIG - I can't recall the details, but I do remember their saying in the "Eye of the Beholder" podcast that there was some uncertainty from the higher-ups about making Elisa's ballgown an exact match for Belle's - with Greg pointing out to them at the time "But you own Belle as well as 'Gargoyles'!"
Todd Jensen

Glad Greg provided an explanation on the title. I can usually at least try to rationalize these odd executive whims (for instance, in the case of Mickey Mouse, he's the main corporate mascot and Disney is extremely protective of him...even the modern DuckTales show wasn't allowed to show him, although they sort of did in a cheeky way). But I really can't think of any reason on Earth for that title change, except that maybe they thought they'd have to pay money to Howard Ashman's estate for the use of the lyric? Beyond that...I got nothing.

Todd > What was the story behind Belle's dress? I listened to that podcast, but I can't recall what you're referencing.


After some of the stories I've heard on "Voices From the Eyrie" (such as the proposed Mickey Mouse watch in "Possession" and Elisa's "Belle ballgown" in "Eye of the Beholder"), I'm not surprised about that being the reason for the title change.

I've no seen the Fleecs cover foir #7: Demona teaming up with a group of mean-looking dogs. Even more impressive than what I'd pictured a Fleecs cover featuring Demona would be like. And alas for Lexington - still no Fleecs cover for him - though at least he got to feature on one of the #4 covers, the one showing him crawling down the cover with the faces of a lot of "Gargoyles" characters (even supporting ones like Leo and Una) in the background; I've picked up, by the way, that it was a hommage to a certain Spiderman cover. THat might be some consolation for the little guy.

Todd Jensen

Well at any rate, I updated the BatB article as well as linking to it from the issue article.

Todd: That's great. I must admit, I was so young when it was on that I don't recall it well besides that I really enjoyed it and for a long time I had a VHS tape of off-broadcast recordings with a home-made cover that I drew when I was about 8. And [SPOILER] Chaz is a great shout. [/SPOILER]

Greg: Huh. Thanks so much for clarifying that - I now feel no guilt about mentally reinserting the "as" and enjoying the great title.

B: [SPOILER] Yeah, I noticed that on rereading. Still feels like an interesting jump to make - another intelligent species. Of course, if it's the Gargoyles Task Force then Matt's influence would make them more open to this possibility. [/SPOILER]

Other #4 thoughts:

[SPOILER] It just occurs to me that the title also works for Pete and Rosie - not 'Beauty and the Beast' but nevertheless a timeless love story in inauspicious circumstances.

I initially took the next issue teaser to be a play on Goliath's rather ill-judged wish coming true but actually if you take it on face value, I wonder who else could have a wish? Lex - maybe something with Amp? Dino? Or does the new emergency grant Gnash a break from history lessons? [/SPOILER]


Ed> [SPOILER] They did say "if" he understands. [/SPOILER]

Greg Weisman> Yet another example of bizarre attitudes towards intellectual property.


Ed wrote "I'd love to know the thinking behind eliding the 'as'."

ANSWER: Disney insisted. I have no idea what their justification was.

Greg Weisman

Thanks for the review, Ed. I remember "Peter Pan and the Pirates" too though I hadn't known that Michael Reaves had written for it. I *did* know that Tim Curry voices Captain Hook in it, and did a great job with him. ("Peter Pan and the Pirates" also shared a lot of Shakespearean allusions with "Gargoyles", if more in the form of quotes; Hook was portrayed as a dedicated fan of Shakespeare and would often quote him - and the not-as-well-known lines, too, such as "I wasted time and now doth time waste me..." from "Richard II" - appropriately, in an episode which echoed the Three Witches' predictions in "Macbeth". It also alluded to many other classics, such as "A Christmas Carol", "Alice's Adventures in Wonderland", and "Sherlock Holmes", and even had an episode where Peter Pan and the Lost Boys were playing at "King Arthur's Knights", with each of the Lost Boys assigned the name of a different knight of the Round Table, including a few who don't often get brought up in pop culture adaptations, such as Sir Pelleas.)

[SPOILER] The evidence suggests that the "bystander" is Chaz, the former sidekick of Fang in "Kingdom" who then joined the Quarrymen in "Clan-Building". [/SPOILER]

Todd Jensen

So sad to hear of the loss of Michael Reaves. An absolute legend. Obviously he has such a broad canon so just one hat tip to one of his lesser-known credits - I really loved the series 'Peter Pan and the Pirates' when I was very little and didn't realise at the time that he worked on several of those scripts. Future appearances of Michael Maza will be especially poignant.

Issue #4...

I have to say on Wednesday, with my LCS closed at present and Amazon orders down, I was getting really pessimistic about being able to get the comics. Luckily, it seems the problem has been fixed and all the issues are back on Amazon UK including pre-orders. Let's just hope this is an end to the digital drama.

Anyway, it's a terrific issue.

Another set of strong ones. Excited for my Kambadais one to arrive - they're almost always my favourite, and this one looks particularly awesome.

Elisa doesn't have too much to do this issue but I love the first page - really romantic and a brilliantly-rendered background. New York cityscapes in comic books are dime a dozen but George Kambadais has truly made something that feels utterly fresh - amazing.

New colourists - I loved George Kambadais' own colours but this studio are really slipstreaming his style.

I love the title's 'Beauty and the Beast' reference and it's so very Goliath, except... why is it not 'Tale AS old as time'? I'm hoping it's some deep cut reference I'm missing because for an adjustment so tiny it really catches at me me, like if there was an episode called 'Defenders of Night' or 'All Things True'. I'd love to know the thinking behind eliding the 'as'.

Yet another Demona ref - some very comprehensive foreshadowing. It's also very clearly established again, for the second time, that gargoyles dream making me wonder if this is laying pipe for the concept that became "For It May Come True".

One thing about 'Gargoyles' I never appreciated before now - or was never able to put my finger on, at least - is what a different energy the daylight scenes have. When we cut to a big event like this happening in the daylight, the whole rhythm of the series is completely different somehow. It's really obvious in the extended daytime scenes in, for example, "City of Stone" Part 3 and "Hunter's Moon" Part 1 but even here the nefarious stuff is happening in broad daylight because this is when the criminals can hide from the gargoyles. It gives these scenes a really different energy that I love.

Finally! He's on the older end of what I expected - with Tony being so young, I figured his uncle could conceivably be in his 40s, even late 30s. Dino looks like he might be pushing 50 but then again perhaps the family have a genetic disposition to going white that bit earlier! His intro with Pal Joey is kind of shocking if only because, if there's one thing 'Gargoyles' teaches us, it's that villains should be supportive line managers. I never expected to feel bad for Pal Joey. And Antoinette doesn't correct Dino for calling her "Toni"...

As with Craig and others, I wondered who is Charles Chalmers? Name doesn't ring a bell but then again I would never have picked up on the paramedics in #1 being from "Deadly Force" had Todd not spotted that.

A lot has been made of how Greg writes on multiple layers for audiences with different levels of familiarity with the franchise but I don't think there's a more perfect example of sheer artistry in service of multi-level storytelling than this page. To newer readers, this feels like another beat in the developing gangland story - indeed it could be assumed to be Dino - and so fits perfectly into the ongoing narrative. But to long-term fans, there's the extra juice of realising that the silhouette is so distinctively Renard and the line "before it's too late" plays very differently. Two such completely different experiences from the same panel. Marvellous.

I kind of love the Dracon family discussion. Dominic is clearly not quite with it (unless he's doing his "Silver Falcon" schtick still which is, actually, pretty plausible). The photographs are a great way to keep us on the same page with the large number of characters and we now know the other four families are Huracan Sanchez, Yingpei Choi, Grisha Volkov and Izaak Slaughter. Great names. Interesting to hear about Anthony Dracon and it seems that he's passed away. As for what Dino's read, I'm intrigued. Somehow I feel it's going to be less "The Art of War" and more "Titus Andronicus".

Lovely to see the clock tower back although my first thought was - "so soon?" I mean, I guess the body of the building wasn't too badly affected. Still, I wonder how much time has passed now - are we still in May? I don't recall a time frame being established on Dino's release and in any event the gangland scenes in #1-3 aren't time bound and could have been happening on a separate track from the main plot. Still, there was a Canon-in-Training hint for the date of the first Gathering convention so I guess we're likely only a few days or at most a couple of weeks on.

So I'm intrigued - if Goliath is captured by actual officials, my hunch is that Margot and Matt are going to be huge parts of future "Here in Manhattan" issues. I agree, it would have been good to have more of the Gargoyles Task Force visible but not the end of the world.

Wow, these two pages are PACKED. My first thought, as with Matt, was that Broadway and Angela seeing Coldfire has to be about some kind of commitment ceremony. Brooklyn and Katana's history lesson also, I'm hoping, is going to set up some more 'Timedancer' flashbacks and also it's going to be interesting to see how the time dances do fit the bigger picture. And Lex - well, this feels a bit like the same beat as the last time we saw him but I like that Hudson is sharp enough to worry. I kind of hope we don't spend too much longer in a down-spiral with Lex as I really want to see how his world picks up.

It's lovely to see Goliath and Hudson together. Sad, after the loss of Ed Asher, but still brilliant. His heart to heart with Goliath really gets to the core of the character and the art is, of course, perfection. Interesting choice on the eyes though as previously white eyes have been associated more with adrenaline and anger than this kind of talk.

Great spot on the "High Noon" reference - missed that first time around. So we have a Romeo and Juliet couple from two of New York's premiere crime families - interesting.

I love how creepy the Trio masks are. I mean, hoods in masks are always pretty creepy, but wearing the disembodied heads of our heroes is really grim. Not sure who's behind the mask - unlike Dino, "Brooklyn" appears to have a winged collar and his build and hair seem slightly different. However, it's hard to be sure and it could be a "the nose is all wrong" moment since Dino, Glasses and Pal Joey are the obvious choices (there's one panel in #4 and on the George Kambadais' cover, it looks like you can see the skin tone of "Broadway's" wrist which suggests it could be Glasses.

Man, Goliath really can't catch a break in either comic series. Of course, he's always taken damage but it does feel like between "Nightwatch", "Bash" and now this issue he's getting even more beaten up than usual - perhaps helped by the "teen" level S&P where knives are more permissible.

What's interesting is, have we actually had the Quarrymen established in the Dynamite Universe? This seems like a mislead more for fans than newcomers which is unusual. I definitely agree that this feels a lot more like a police operation in terms of procedure - although I would have expected them to announce themselves. What's strange though is that they seem to credit Goliath with understanding language. Even if you assumed that the gargoyles were intelligent enough to be trained to take down criminals, it's a big jump to assuming they can speak and respond to feedback. Now, granted, there's a plausible case in this world that this could be a human with bionic enhancement so the words cover that eventuality. However, in this case, and they are police, why not identify themselves as such? Either way, it makes for great suspense.

Great finale only slightly spoiled by the fact that the previews seemingly give away quite a lot about where things are going. I have tried avoiding them but that's pretty difficult so I've mainly given up. That said, I hope we can get some more evasive previews coming up. I know it's crucial to hook in readers but I must admit, I loved that period where Robert Kirkman would deliberately issue solicits for 'The Walking Dead' that were so vague they were basically meaningless in order to preserve surprises. [/SPOILER]

Another excellent issue. And fingers crossed for a stress-free purchase next time!!


Sorry for the double post, but I noticed, while doing a bit of editing at GargWiki, that back in early 2001, someone asked Greg at "Ask Greg" whether [SPOILER] Rosario Sanchez and Peter Choi would have appeared on-screen in "Gargoyles" with more stories, and Greg replied "Yes". He definitely keeps his promises - it took him twenty-two years, but he fulfilled this one. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen

Just listened to the "High Noon" podcast at "Voices from the Eyrie" - and I'd like to congratulate Bishansky and Jennifer Anderson on having Salli Richardson for a guest. I enjoyed it, as ever. (I was particularly delighted when they described the big highlight of the new Elisa action figure the inclusion of Cagney as an "accessory".)

I'd heard of "Eureka", though I'd never seen it, but I hadn't known that Salli was involved with it. Now I'll probably have to find out more about it.

And I'm looking forward to seeing the "Watching and Dreaming" episode of "The Owl House" as well - not looking forward to the series being over, of course, but to see how the story resolves. It's been a really good show.

Todd Jensen

Much anticipation for the Owl House finale.

#4 [SPOILER] To be fair, actual Brooklyn has black and white in his hair in these comics, and since he never had dark hair on the show, I suspect the hair for both mask-Brooklyn and actual Brooklyn is just a case of shading and lighting. I don't think the hair on the Brooklyn mask is intended to be understood as actual human hair of whoever is wearing it. [/SPOILER]

Meanwhile, I'm so happy to see the Angela NECA figure finally on pre-order!

And in other exciting news, the date for the last episode of The Owl House has been set for April 8th. Of course, this also chalks up to be a bit of a bummer -- sad to see the series end so quickly. Still, I am on the edge of my seat :--)

Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."

[SPOILER] Dino's hair is white with black in the middle. "Brooklyn"'s hair is black with white in the middle. [/SPOILER]

B> Good catch. Forgot about that. I don't have the new comics committed to memory yet... but give it time!
"Well, I'm back..." -Samwise Gamgee, Lord of the Rings

Jurgan> [SPOILER] I find that often on the podcast when Greg B tries to fish for spoilers (jokingly, since he knows he won't get them), Greg W's go-to response is often silence (and yes, I do imagine he's smirking). So I didn't read too much into it either way. [/SPOILER]

I enjoyed the new Voices podcast. One interesting little detail: [SPOILER] Greg B. referred to the three masked criminals as Dino, Glasses, and Pal Joey. I expected Greg W. to point out that we don't know for sure who was behind those masks, but said nothing to object. Does that mean the guess was right, or was Weisman quietly smirking that it was wrong? [/SPOILER]
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Todd> My cat did respond to Cagney a couple of times on my rewatch a year or two ago. A credit to Frank Welker's convincing vocal skills.

A new Voices from the Eyrie podcast dropped today, focused on "High Noon." The opening segment features discussion of issue 4, but obviously was recorded too late to include discussion of Michael Reaves's passing. I've been very excited for this one due to the participation of Salli Richardson. I don't recall ever really hearing her discuss Gargoyles outside of promotion when the show was still on the air in the 1990s. It was lovely to hear her appreciation for the series. One funny detail is that the podcast was recorded on her son's birthday, and she says how the discussion has inspired her to force him to start rewatching Gargoyles with her after his birthday dinner.


I forgot to mention this, but I rewatched "The Price" yesterday, inspired by Craig's words, as a tribute to Michael Reaves. A really great episode. I'm not certain if this has been brought up before, but I particularly appreciated the irony of Hudson, captured partly so that Xanatos could obtain a piece of gargoyle stone skin, using another piece of gargoyle stone skin to free himself. Small wonder that Xanatos was impressed.

My cat Zoey showed some interest in the episode, by the way, sitting next to me and looking at the screen. I should watch "Deadly Force" next (I was planning to rewatch it soon anyway, after the "Voices from the Eyrie" podcast on it offered a new insight on Owen's actions in it) and see how she responds to Cagney's meowing. (My previous two cats, Merlin and Obie, both sat up with interest when they heard Cagney meow in that episode. I mentioned that to Greg Weisman once, and he remarked that none of his cats have responded to Cagney - nor have any of his dogs responded to Bronx, for that matter.)

[SPOILER] A thought about the revelation in #7's logline that Demona's after three new objects of power, apparent successors to the Grimorun Arcanorum, the Eye of Odin, and the Phoenix Gate. The original three objects had been put out of commission in various ways - the Grimorum consumed alongside the Archmage, the Eye returned to Odin, the Phoenix Gate crumbling away to release the Phoenix. Did their ends, so close to each other, trigger the emergence of these three new objects, on the basis of "Nature abhors a vacuum"? Given that we're currently seeing that principle at work in the organized crime thread, that possibility seems all the more tempting. [/SPOILER]

Todd Jensen

Matt> [SPOILER] During the car chase in #1, Matt Bluestone said the the crooks were "A.T.M. bandits". There was no suggestion it wasn't their own car. Did you think "A.T.M." stood for "automobile"? [/SPOILER]

Thanks for your review, Matt.

[SPOILER] Some good points, too. I hadn't thought of connecting Brooklyn's "hit the history books" line in "Clan-Building" with Nashville's history lessons or the scene of Rosaria and Peter's abduction with the scene of their rescuing a child in "High Noon" until you brought them up.

Further thought on the scene where Goliath's being captured; judging from the voices coming from the helicopters, the NYPD - or whoever's behind it, but they seem the most likely candidate - aren't ocmpletely ready to dismiss the notion of the gargoyles being mere animals, despite their scepticism. I doubt they'd be saying that to a mountain lion or a grizzly bear.

And, as a friend of mine pointed out, it's a lot better than "Goliath caught in the headlights like a deer" in "And Justice For All". [/SPOILER]

JURGAN - I checked, and you were right, it was indeed Alan Moore.

Todd Jensen

Sorry for the double post. Catching up on everything I missed the last few days while I was finding time to submit my thoughts.

Sad to hear of the passing of Michael Reaves. What an important part of Gargoyles and so many other franchises. What a legacy he has left.

[SPOILER] Somehow I glossed over the last name of the five families members and didn't even notice Choi and Sanchez. Guess the Pete and Rosie connection is confirmed!

After reading others thoughts and thinking on it more myself, I do think that the "masked trio" were sent by Dino, I do think the Dino got the idea after noticing the two teenagers connection in the newspaper, and I do think destabilization of the other four families is part of Dino's plans. However, I really don't think Dino is "brooklyn". Could be wrong, but that my hunch.

I do agree that Lex is almost certainly spending his time in the computer lab chatting with Amp. "better things to do" indeed!

And it really is interesting to Weisman's versions of the old TGC episodes. I know he's mentioned he gave them his notes and they went where they went with them. I do get the sense that we are starting to see the canon version of "Justice for all" at last. Makes me wonder what else there was in TGC that we might see next. Alex's kidnapping by the tricksters from "Ransom"? Time will tell. [/SPOILER]

"Well, I'm back..." -Samwise Gamgee, Lord of the Rings

Hey all! Downloaded and read Gargoyles #4 the minute it was released. These are my thoughts without reading anyone else's yet:

[SPOILER] - "Tale old as time". The title is interesting to me in the sense that I don't really get it. It immediately reminds me of the song from Disney's Beauty & the Beast, which isn't a bad reference to make with Goliath and Elisa making out on the first page, but aside from that (and a Romeo & Juliet reference later), I'm not sure what tale is as old as time here.

- I was surprised to have Goliath be our narrator this time around. Gives me some Goliath Chronicles vibes. I understand why his POV was important for the latter part of this chapter, but in many ways this chapter isn't about him. I think the chapter is about the Trio. Not individually, but as an entity. But I'll get to that in a minute, someone else doesn't like to wait...

-We finally get to meet Dino Dracon. He certainly was built up to be a major baddie, and in his first scene he quickly makes it clear that he is a bit of a psychopath. At least, that's how I read him. Poor Pal Joey might agree. Yikes. And I love that even his own family is a bit scared of him. Toni's face in the car says volumes. I love the look of him. Stands out next to the other Dracons, yet looks like part of the family.

-The page showing us the TV footage of the car theft from Chapter One is quick and inconsequential here, but I feel its going to be important later. We get a new character again here: Charles Chalmers. I feel he is a bit more than an "interested bystander". We'll see what happens with him. I feel Bluestone saying the humans in question were arrested on burglary charges and not grand theft auto is odd. Though I don't know much about the law, to be honest. They might've also had warrants for burglary even before the car theft. And I love that Matt also plants the seed that maybe the gargoyles were helping out. Travis is skeptical (and fair enough), but the intellectual abilities and mindset of the Clan is looking like its about to become a major plot point (and I'm basing that on what this chapter reveals and 25 years of Greg Weisman talking about his plans). Then we get the person in silhouette watching all of this. It really looks like Renard to me, I could be wrong, but that's who I see. And his comment about "before its too late" only reinforces that notion. I think Renard is dying. And I think he wants to do what he can to help before then. That's my prediction. Could be wrong.

- Back to the Dracon's family meeting. It is remarkable how Glasses is held in such high esteem. One day (maybe soon?) we'll have to get his backstory. A lot of talk and more explanation of the "five families" and Brod's incursion. Definitely getting some groundwork here. Glasses defends Tony as well as he can, but Dino clearly thinks Tony failed. Still, Dino admits that the gargoyles are a new factor, particularly because, per Glasses (and Tony's experiences), the gargoyles are working with the cops. But Dino has a plan... Yikes again. Not one that requires manpower. A different way... Brace yourselves...

- The Clocktower's rebuild and remodel is complete! We are still unclear on the timeline here, but it seems it took about six months. Glad most of our 23rd precinct staff is there (Chavez, Morgan, Maza, Bluestone). Would've been nice to get a cameo of Harris, Chung, and Travanti here, but all good. Margot has got some news, but we don't know what yet. If its something she finds amazing, but Matt is hesitant about, I think we've got problems. Stay tuned!

- Finally we come to my favorite part of this Chapter (as it has been for the last few chapters): the interactions of the Manhattan Clan. Goliath wants to catch up with the Trio, but the moment he heads their way he watches as they fracture more and more. All going different directions. Literally and figuratively. Broadway and Angela want to talk to Coldfire about something. They're nervously excited. And that honestly made me nervously excited. I recall Greg telling us once that Coldfire may have held a ceremonial role in the Clan. That, combined with their personal connection to Coldfire forged (no pun intended) during "Possession", makes me think that Broadway and Angela want to ask her to officiate their bonding ritual. Could we be headed towards seeing a gargoyle wedding? "Are you excited? Cuz I'm excited!" Meanwhile, Brooklyn has family business to deal with. Time to teach history to Gnash. I love Gnash's reaction to this. But Brooklyn's rebuttal is perfect. In fact, it really calls back to Brooklyn's almost fourth wall break in "Tyrants": "Too much TV, too few history books... So hit those books, kids!" And finally, with Broadway going one way, and Brooklyn going another, we are left with Lexington. And boy does he feel it. It's just been getting worse for poor Lex. We've gone from silent disapproval to vocal dismissal to finally outright rejection. He doesn't want to talk to Goliath, he's pushing away from the Clan, and he just wants to spend time in the computer lab. Perhaps there is someone he can talk to there? Maybe Lex is wishing he'd just stayed in London. He seemed happier there. I really hope we get a satisfying end to this Lexington arc. Greg wouldn't set all of this up to ignore it, but I'm so nervous about it. There's a few directions this could be going and I just really am excited to know. Are we seeing the beginnings of Lex's business plans or of his personal realizations or will all of this culminate in an even bigger surprise? Time will tell. I also gotta wonder if Goliath, seeing Lex like this, is particularly concerned after the dream/prophecy(?) he experienced in "Future Tense". Lexington went down a dark path there, Is this the beginning of that path?

- All in all, the Trio stuff is simply my favorite part of this Chapter by far. I love seeing them grow up and watching what happens to them. It's a thrill. But the Trio is falling apart. Lexington sees it, Brooklyn might've realized it long ago, and Broadway, who is usually so attuned to this sort of thing, is blindly in love and not paying attention. I like that Hudson and Goliath are aware of it though and that it is important to them and worth talking about. And I love that they buck the powerful warrior leader and old cranky mentor stereotypes here and actually are concerned about the friendships and bonds of their family. They want them to grow, but also to remain close friends and brothers. Even if it takes a crisis to snap them back. Really great stuff. Kudos Greg for all the Manhattan Clan material in the heart of this Chapter.

- The lake in Central Park. Perhaps where a toddler was rescued and resuscitated a couple years prior. And we meet our young lovers: Pete and Rosie. This has to be Peter Choy and Rosario Sanchez, right? So fun to have these characters show up after hearing their names briefly over 25 years ago. They're not only friends, but romantic partners, and not only that, but they've gotta keep their love secret. They certainly fit the Romeo and Juliet vibes. I wonder if they are truly from different houses. Perhaps from two of the "five families" mentioned earlier? This would make sense with what they say later about "who they are" and "who they know". The "trio" that kidnaps them are pretty creepy in those masks. We get to see a nefarious mirror image of our trio: not gargoyles, but human, not good-intentioned, but being bad, not fractured, but united. Naturally "brooklyn" calls the shots. And he is not afraid of directly engaging Goliath. Who are these guys and who are they working for?! Is this part of Dino's plan?

- Before we can learn too much, another faction shows up. Goliath suspects Quarrymen, but I think he's clearly wrong. These folks seem official. Government maybe? They capture Goliath and we fade to black... [/SPOILER]

And now I have to wait a whole month to answer all these questions! Dang you, Greg Weisman, you brilliant storyteller!

[SPOILER] - In all, a fantastic Chapter. I really think the comic has found it's footing now and is moving along at full speed unencumbered by background exposition and introductions.

Really excited to see what happens next. Someone's wish will come true? Too late, mine already did! [/SPOILER]

"Well, I'm back..." -Samwise Gamgee, Lord of the Rings

A couple of other thoughts on #4.

[SPOILER] Rosario and Peter's appearance in this issue feels all the more timely, with "High Noon" (the episode that mentioned them - almost Emir-style now) being the next episode to be covered in "Voices from the Eyrie". I'm looking forward to seeing if that gets commented on in the podcast. (On a more melancholy note, "Voices from the Eyrie" will soon need to do a tribute for the late Michael Reaves.

And, yes, the silhouette does indeed look like Renard - and it occurs to me that this could be leading in to the story Greg had mentioned planning for Season Three when he passes on. [/SPOILER]

B- Thanks for interest in the story. It hasn't been published yet, and is even going through some major rewrites, but does indeed involve a fair amount of "time travel oddities" besides the one I mentioned.

JURGAN - Yes, I thought it was Alan Moore who said it, but I haven't been able to track it down, so I'm not certain.

MATTHEW - I recall the panels from "Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader?" you posted as a tribute to Kevin Conroy; they struck me as a "Batman" version of "Good Night Moon" (in a good way).

And, yes, money's the obvious reason why they don't kill off the big comic book heroes. (It strikes me that their being presented as contemporary figures ties in with that. The heroes of ancient and medieval legend were always depicted as having lived centuries earlier, so there wasn't the same obstacle. Of course, even when their death-stories were established, you could still come out with new stories about them that were simply "prequels". I've read that the tales about Charlemagne's paladins, such as Roland, followed this practice; the big story about them, "The Song of Roland", dealt with their deaths at Roncesvalles, but the storytellers then composed stories set earlier, about Roland's youth, for example.)

Todd Jensen

When it comes to death stories involving characters like Superman or Batman, there's always been the thought in the back of the mind that says "They'll be be back. Give it a couple of months." Case in point, "The Death of the Justice League" occurred just last year and no one expects to stick for long.

And the thing is, poignant stories involving the death of the big heroes such as "The Trinity" do exist. "The Death of Superman" may have been a herald of the Dark Age of Comics but it's also a pretty dramatic story and the image of a weeping Lois Lane holding Clark after he's saved the day for the last time is iconic for a reason. Neil Gaiman's "Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader?" is a touching send off to Batman (I used a panel from it in my tribute to Kevin Conroy). And even comics with a heavy sense of conclusion, though not necessarily ending with death, like "All Star Superman" can be great stories in their own right.

In conclusion, today's legendary heroes can have good death stories. The one thing holding them back? Merchandise.

Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

[SPOILER] It didn't occur to me that the silhouette was Renard, but it certainly looks like him. His dialogue doesn't mesh with the mob bosses, so it's obviously not one of them. This is one of those tricks you can do in comics but not in television without something to disguise a voice. It was hilarious when Kingdom Hearts 2 tried to pull this trick by having a shadowy manipulator giving monologues and later reveal him to be another character, but since both character were voiced by Christopher Lee it was blatantly obvious.

"I've read that one comics writer (I forget who it was) commented once that a major difference between the familiar comic book super-heroes and the heroes of old myths and legends (King Arthur and his knights, Robin Hood, Beowulf, etc.) was that the heroes of the old myths and legends had death-stories, but nobody is going to dare give a genuine "death-story" to Superman or Batman because it'd be killing a source or revenue. Maybe someone else here will know just who said it and more about that statement."

I don't know for sure, but that sounds like something Alan Moore would say.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Just a couple small things, since most ppl have covered my thoughts [SPOILER] I also thought the guy watching the broadcast saying "something MUST be done about this...before it's too late" is Renard. And I had had a thought recently, that if Goliath is going to be there when R dies (according to hints on ask greg), I felt like they needed to have more than two meetings for that to make sense. So I am excited to see if we are right, and Daddy Renard gets a moment to shine, and help Goliath in his predicament.

Also love that the little call back from High Noon is being fleshed out here. "Nothing is ever wasted" indeed.

Last and definitely least, I find it amusing that the same day we get a garg comic that is really leaning into a mafia plot, Francis Ford Coppola's granddaughter goes trending on social media. We really live in a multiverse, folks! LOL [/SPOILER]


B [SPOILER] This was from the wiki, where Greg revealed that Lex would start chatting with Staghart under the alias "Tin Man." This might be happening now or it could be in flux now that canon is officially moving again. [/SPOILER]
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

[SPOILER] So this was *a lot* stronger I thought. Great focus on character, Hudson and Goliath have a nice little moment, setting up the antagonist and what the story's gonna be for this little mini-arc. It also didn't feel so packed, like it needed to throw *everyone* in. Goliath, the Trio, Dino. Those are the big pillars.

I don't honestly have much else to say. The action was pretty good. Still loving the art. I'm intrigued by Dino, I kinda get like a JK Simmons (as Omni-man) vibe from him. Which is cool. The structure of the story makes me think of Hill Street Blues a bit. Hill Street always did really great morality tales, so I'm kind of hoping Greg draws from that a bit here.

Eager for the next one. [/SPOILER]

Alex (Aldrius)

Matthew> [SPOILER] Which comments did Greg make and where that indicate Lex is talking to Staghart? (and I had a terrible thought; I hope he's not talking to who is supposed to be Staghart but is actually Thailog, Brentwood or some other villain) It must be strange for Gnash to be staying in one place now; I wonder if he always wanted more stability or misses timedancing. [/SPOILER]

Jurgan> [SPOILER] I also thought they were police, but shouldn't police helicopters be marked? From "Awakening Part, One", I got the impression the Trio had always been a trio in the Dark Ages. [/SPOILER]

Todd Jensen> [SPOILER] Sounds like a great story, is there somewhere we can read it? The Doctor would have the same problem. He likes to visit museums to keep score on how much they got right. I didn't realize the station had been out of commission all this time; where were Chavez's officers operating out of during the SLG season and the first Dynamite arc?

smh at Travis questioning the Gargoyles' intelligence when they're clearly *wearing clothing* in the footage. [/SPOILER]


Just read #4 digitally.

[SPOILER] We see Dino Dracon in action now, and he definitely comes across as somebody to beware - as Pal Joey can attest. I'm curious about just what he read in prison, though I assume it had something to do with the "trio masks" (I think we can safely assume that Dino and his followers were the guys wearing the masks - with Dino wearing the Brooklyn mask. Makes sense, with Brooklyn as the leader of the trio).

Nashville's response to having to learn history when he's lived much of it through Timedancing reminded me a bit of a story I'd written once about a girl who's a time traveler, and who's concluded from her experiences that time travelers should never take regular history classes. She kept getting in trouble with her history teacher through including information she'd picked up on her time traveling in her class papers, details not mentioned in the regular historical sources such as what the weather was like on a certain day in ancient or medieval history or unrecorded quirks of historical figures - her teacher taking a tone of "Save this sort of thing for creative writing."

We see the 23rd precinct police station re-opened - and I'm looking forward to finding out what this picture was that Margot and Matt were talking about.

So the young couple kidnapped by the "fake trio" were Rosario Sanchez and Peter Choi from "High Noon"? Trust them to make an appearance at last. Since I picked up from conversations earlier this week that their last names are the same as those borne by a couple of the rival gang leaders, apparently Dino is planning to use them as hostages to make the gangs do what he wants. (And I noticed the "Romeo and Juliet" remark; trust a Shakespearean comparison to crop up in "Gargoyles".)

So who's behind the helicopters? I'm assuming it to be the NYPD - maybe even the Gargoyle Task Force, in action for the first time since "Hunter's Moon" - and suspect, as I mentioned before, that we're about to see "And Justice For All" done right. (Dino Dracon certainly makes a much better adversary than the anonymous gangster in that episode - and I doubt he'd fall for the "hidden recording" trick.)

A good new issue, and am looking forward to the next two issues.


Todd Jensen

Issue 4 is excellent. 1-3 did feel kind of like just getting the pregnancy plot out of the way, this one is stronger. I got the cover with Goliath fighting a Quarreyman.

[SPOILER] That being said, I don't think Quarreymen are in this issue. I wouldn't take Goliath's guess at face value. The helicopter pilot says to "kneel and place your, uh, claws behind your head!" That's police procedure for making an arrest, and a Quarreyman wouldn't come up short on the word "claws." In addition, Travis Marshall alludes to the idea that gargoyles are just creatures who don't understand the concept of crime. So I am pretty sure the police just arrested Goliath and we're seeing the "Goliath on trial" storyline. (I guess it's possible they're both police and Quarreymen- as Rage Against the Machine might say, some of those who wear badges are the same who wield hammers. Maybe? I'll work on it.) I don't fully understand Dino's plan, but it looks to me like he arranged for Goliath to be caught attacking a human in the park (and I think he's in the Brooklyn mask, but I could be wrong). This would turn the public against gargoyles. In addition, maybe the masks were enough to fool the kids and their kidnapping will make the families go hard against the gargoyles. That last part doesn't make sense to me, as Goliath is right, no one would be fooled by those masks, but I'm not sure what the point of them is. Maybe it would make it look like Goliath isn't smart enough to tell the difference between a gargoyle and a human in a gargoyle mask, thus furthering the idea that they're merely beasts. Todd Jensen has a long-running idea that the TGC version of the Quarreymen would have made more sense if they were just a criminal gang who propagandized against the gargoyles to relieve pressure on themselves. Dino appears to be trying something similar in this episode. As for the kidnapping, I would guess it has something to do with turning the gangs against each other.

Other thoughts: I think Broadway and Angela are going to talk to Coldfire about getting pregnant, since she's already been through it. I'm not sure who Chalmers is (gargwiki doesn't know either), but he seems cranky. Someone should give him some nice steamed hams. Lexington being alone is kinda sad. I was surprised that Hudson mentioned the three of them being close ever since they hatched. I always thought their close bond came from being the only ones the same age in the 20th century. Dino is delivering on his promise, being both violent and calculating.

As always, the issue is over too soon. All the ads in the back always fool me into thinking I have more story than I actually do. Ready for the next one!

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Gargoyles #4: [SPOILER] Oh, I know that silhouette watching the news anywhere and I agree its old fox himself.
--Margot and her clipboard with Bluestone is the mystery I'm wondering about.
--Those big scissors do exist, I've been to a few grand openings over the years. Just don't know where one buys them, lol.
--When it comes to this Charles Chalmers, I briefly thought it was the full name for Chaz, but the look of the guy doesn't match, even with different art styles to consider.
--As for what Dino read in prison, I suspect both he, Hudson, and Broadway read the same paper.
--I agree that Dino gives off Silvermane vibes, with even a line that echoes his first encounter the webhead: "Frankly I'm unimpressed". [/SPOILER]

Truly sad to hear the news about Michael Reaves. Considering the episodes he wrote, his contributions and impact in "Deadly Force" and "Her Brother's Keeper" are particularly poignant given the first arcs of these last four issues.

Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."

Shame about Michael Reaves, a talented creator whose voice will be missed.

Now, time for thoughts on issue #4, won't be too long, most everyone else has covered what I wanted to discuss.
[SPOILER] When reading Dino Dracon, I was getting some serious Silvermane vibes from Spectacular Spider-Man. His presence ups the anxiety in the criminal underworld as he challenges the status quo. The difference is that most of the anxiety is coming from his family rather than his adversaries (for now). If that was him under the Brooklyn mask that just ups the comparison; when Silvermane first met Spidey he made a comment about being unimpressed with the superhero, much like how the masked crook was unimpressed with Goliath.

The continuing gang war has taken an interesting turn. The kidnapping of Sanchez and Choi could very well get two members of the Five Families to retaliate and break rank so to speak, cause a bit of disunity that weakens the group if you get my meaning. And if this is the work of Dino this alliance of convenience with the Quarrymen could spell trouble. They're already pretty militant so the Dracons using them as hired muscle could turn this from gang warfare to an all out war.

The bit with Gnash and his history lessons is a fascinating one. We still know very little about the Time Dancer arc and how much time the family spent in one particular place or time. This makes me think that Gnash might be the time-traveling equivalent to a military brat. Someone who hasn't had much opportunity to settle down and have some roots because they moved all the time. I'm hoping for some more details in the future.

And finally I'd like to discuss what's going on with Lex and how the Trio has drifted apart. Broadway and Angela are still pretty wrapped up in their new relationship and Brooklyn? Well, I don't think he's had enough time to readjust to to the 20th century. He's stuck pretty close to his family because odds are that's been his only consistent relationship for all these years. And poor Lex is feeling left out. Judging by Greg's comments, he might be chatting online with Staghart and we'll see where that goes. But there's also a chance that he's driving himself away because he doesn't know where he stands with his friends at the moment. Maybe this upcoming crisis will help them all figure this out. [/SPOILER]

Overall, I like the issue and I'm curious to see where it goes.

Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

B> (Gargoyles #4 spoilers)
I assume what Antiyonder meant is that the song from Beauty & the Beast is entitled, "Tale As Old As Time." This issue's title is missing the first "as," which is somewhat confusing. But I agree that it was probably intended as a reference nonetheless.

Nice catch on the "striped" hair on "Brooklyn." I think this is actually shadows/shading, but very well might be an intentional art choice to tie him to Dino. I don't think this person is actually Dino though as was theorized on reddit. He does seem to be wearing an identical suit, but this person seems to be depicted as noticeably slimmer than Dino. Unless that was just an art error.


More on Gargoyles #4:
On my first read-through, I thought the Travis Marshall news broadcast was being watched by the Dracons. But now that I look at it again, it appears to be an entirely different room. And the silhouette of the person watching it looks an awful lot like...Halcyon Renard?! Does anyone agree with this, and if so, what could he mean about something being done about "this"?

Oh, and we learn that Anthony Dracon's father was named...Anthony. So he named both his son and his daughter after himself. Textbook narcissism. Hope we get to see this guy at some point, even if just in a flashback.

A minor nitpick...although I overall really like Kambadais's art, he draws characters' glasses strangely, comically large. I noticed this first with Owen, and now with Glasses. They are HUGE, impractically so. What is up with that?

Glasses's line about a war "against the other four families and Dane" is confusing. Shouldn't that be Brod, not Dane? Although, speaking of Jack Dane, who could have predicted that such a throwaway character would have ended up playing such a pivotal role in this early run of the comic?

Interesting that Katana says Gnash needs a history lesson. If she's originally from feudal Japan, wouldn't she also have a lot of catching-up to do? And for that matter, even Brooklyn had only been in the 20th century for a couple of years before his time jump. I'd imagine it would be more of a group study, as opposed to a "lesson" for Gnash.


Antiyonder> Re:Gargoyles #4 [SPOILER] Off how? I'm pretty sure it's a Beauty and the Beast reference. [/SPOILER]

Todd Jensen> I copy and paste the tags from the example beneath the comment box to avoid typos. Jameson is always calling Spider-Man "a menace" in other versions.

Jurgan> Karen Beecher first appeared in Season 1 as the head of Happy Harbor High's cheerleading team, the Bumblebees, which M'gann joined. After the timeskip to Season 2, she was part of the Team as Bumblebee and studying under Dr Ray Palmer (the Atom). Robbie Draymond is one of the favorites. I forgot that Condiment King had been referenced on this show. Yeah, Jack Kirby had thing for creating casts of techno-magical super-gods (Fourth World, Asgardians, Eternals, Inhumans).

Craig> Re:Gargoyles #4 [SPOILER] I also enjoyed Nash's line about having lived history, but I hope he gains an appreciation for education. And that Lex is talking to Staghart. Not only as an alternative to something more sinister but because they should be talking. I noticed the "Brooklyn" one has striped hair. [/SPOILER]

luxuri> Don't think I will.

RIP, Michael Reeves. Other people have already eulogized more eloquently.


Visit our website
luxuri - [moneymachine828 at yahoo dot com]

Thanks, Adam. Will definitely watch "The Price" tonight, then. The line, "True immortality isn't about living forever. It's about what you do with the time you have," ran through my head as soon as I heard that the incomparable Ed Asner had passed. It applies equally to the man who wrote that line. Truly a remarkable body of work that he left behind. I'd been wondering for quite some time how he was doing, although I expected it was not great. My thoughts are with his daughter and any other loved ones.

I'm sorry to hear about his passing.
Todd Jensen

Craig - Here is the tweet that Gret retweeted:



Adam > Are you able to disclose your source for that? I'm not seeing anything online about it yet.

All due respect to Greg, but Reaves was an instrumental part of what made Gargoyles great, and reading the Dynamite issues, I have missed Reaves's touch with the dialogue. A true artist, and the fact that such a brilliant mind could no longer express itself due to Parkinson's was really heartbreaking. I still periodically check his blog to see if he or a family member has updated it, although there hasn't been a new entry in ten years now. Maybe I'll give "The Price" a watch tonight.


I just found out that Michael Reaves died on Monday. RIP to a great writer.

Oh, one thought on Gargoyles #4 I forgot to mention...
Another issue without Bronx. Greg is really letting Nate Crosby down here.


Gargoyles #4
[SPOILER] As Greg told us, the action is picking up! Still some awkward exposition, but also a lot of good character and story stuff.

The title is interesting. I assume it's a Beauty and the Beast reference. If so, I wonder why Greg decided to leave out the "as"?

I note that there is now a colorist credited (Arancia Studio). I gather that Kambadais was doing his own coloring previously? Should we assume that this is a measure to allow him to concentrate solely on the line work and streamline the process? In any event, I didn't notice any change in quality or consistency.

I haven't been a huge fan of the narration gimmick in the past couple of issues, but this issue with Goliath is easily the most successful since issue 1. Perhaps it's not a coincidence that Elisa and Goliath's worked best for me because I'm a romantic sap, and both of them eloquently expressed some emotional truths, whereas Angela and Broadway seemed to just kind of be narrating the story and providing exposition.

As some have predicted from his build-up, Dino Dracon seems a bit in the mode of "Tommy DeVito meets Lalo Salamanca." He's cool and collected, but when the smallest thing sets him off, like Pal Joey splashing water on his shoe, he becomes explosive and unpredictable. Good introduction to the character.

Have we seen this Charles Chalmers, who filmed the gargoyles, before? Or is he an entirely new character?

Glasses is great. I love that he's suitably deferential to Dino but not remotely a yes-man. Very much in the "Owen" mode of telling it like it is, but knowing how to do so in a way that won't set off Dino. And he stands up for Tony.

This idea of the "five families" is rather strange. In reality, and in The Godfather, the five families were all part of the Italian Mafia. But here, it seems that five groups of criminals from varying ethnicities have all entered into some sort of alliance where they (coincidentally?) also refer to themselves as the "five families"? Not sure what to make of that.

Some interesting mysteries for future issues. What did Dino read in prison? What does Margot show Matt? What does Angela want to talk to Coldfire about?

And most significantly, where on Earth did Chavez get those giant scissors? :) Do those actually exist in real life, or are they just in movies and cartoons?

Page 9, and the gargoyles finally enter the story! (Not counting the opening narration by Goliath.) It's a credit to the storytelling that we can go this long without seeing any of our main characters, and it's still engaging.

The "history lesson" banter with Gnash is really fun. It's seeming more and more like Lex is beginning down a dark path of isolation that scares me. I really hope he's going on AOL Instant Messenger and communicating with Amp, and not doing something more sinister in the computer lab.

Great to get some quality Goliath-Hudson time. It's been far too long since we saw these two just talking and bonding. Although it made me heartsick to know that we'll never hear Ed Asner speak these lines, except in our imaginations.

OK, so we've now learned the last names of the criminal "family" bosses we met in the prior issue. And here, we have Pete (Choi) and Rose (Sanchez), presumably the teenagers who rescued a kid from drowning, as read in a news article in "High Noon." Definitely a deep cut. So, we can infer that Pete is the son of Yingpei Choi and Rose is the daughter of Huracan Sanchez...or at least, that they are somehow related to those two. So, who is kidnapping them? Are those Dracon henchmen behind those masks, or someone else? (The "Brooklyn" one does speak Italian.) They imply that they WANT Choi and Sanchez's families to retaliate, and they also don't expect anyone to actually mistake them for gargoyles despite the fact that they wear gargoyles masks. A lot going on here, in classic Gargoyles fashion.

And then, as if that weren't enough, the Quarrymen show up! With some snazzy helicopters presumably bought with that sweet Illuminati money.


And the deaths of Thor and the rest of the Norse gods pre-dates Marvel, as a major part of the Norse myths. Though I can see why the people who run Marvel would be uneasy about a "lasting" Ragnarok as killing off "franchise characters".

I've read that one comics writer (I forget who it was) commented once that a major difference between the familiar comic book super-heroes and the heroes of old myths and legends (King Arthur and his knights, Robin Hood, Beowulf, etc.) was that the heroes of the old myths and legends had death-stories, but nobody is going to dare give a genuine "death-story" to Superman or Batman because it'd be killing a source or revenue. Maybe someone else here will know just who said it and more about that statement.

Todd Jensen

Nowadays killing off Thor's whole cast has been done so frequently it's hard to imagine there was any pushback at all. Guess ol' Jack was just a few decades early.
They're like the Green Lantern Corp of Marvel.

Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

My understanding is that Kirby’s original idea while working for Marvel was to kill off Thor and his pantheon (the old gods) and replace them with his new ones. But Stan Lee and Marvel management would not allow him to do that, so he eventually created a modified version at DC.

Yeah, Robbie's great, there's a reason Critical Role fans are always excited to see him.

"Unknown Factors" So Bumblebee was a fairly big character in season 2 but obviously has taken a step back in terms of the narrative. She actually showed up in "Home Fires" as part of the big hero family get-together. Her conundrum about whether to tweak baby Rhea's DNA set us on a big conversation on the ethics of it all. Or the Gattaca Argument as it were.

The big albino ape is Ultra-Humanite, who has a seat at the Light's table and was established to have taken over for The Brain. He's actually the very first supervillain Superman ever fought in the comics.

As for the Old Gods, that's a Jack Kirby creation and we'll be seeing them soon enough.

Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Personally, I've long said Macbeth was my favorite Gargoyles character.

Young Justice 3x21: Unknown Factors

Wasn't wild about this episode. I think the B-plot about Bumblebee having a baby didn't thrill me. This is another character I didn't even remember being in this show, though it looks like she was in some recent episodes as a civilian. The image of her grabbing on to DNA ladders and poking them was silly to me. I assume it's more symbolic, but I don't buy it's that easy to give someone meta-genes even if you have studied them. But I think it's really just that I don't like when we have to keep cutting away from the main plot to something completely unrelated.

The A-plot was better. We got to see Granny fully unleashed, trapping some of the heroes in her torture dungeon. She also tries to kill a Motherbox, setting off alarms and bringing the group to her home. Halo casts a spell and Granny calls it "the tongue of the Old Gods." "Old Gods" don't come up a lot, though I think they got a few mentions here and there. Also, we saw Kaldur and Wyynde together, and Wyynde has a line about not enjoying "sucking and blowing," which was a kind of gross double entendre. My wife was excited to see he was voiced by Robbie Daymond, one of their favorite voice actors since playing Persona 5. He's really good with his fans.

C-plot: Garfield had a fight with the Condiment King, oh dear. And Jace was acting suspicious throughout, trying to keep Halo and Brion apart, though they eventually reconcile despite it. Something about it made me uncomfortable, and I was right, she's in league with... a giant Mongolian ape with an exposed brain. Why not. This is another case where I don't remember the character, but I'm just gonna roll with it. I think he was part of The Light.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

I remember The Resurrection of Doom. There was also an ongoing Roger Rabbit comic book series from Disney Comics. They didn't have permission to use Bob Hoskins's image in that series, so they introduced a new detective character named Rick Flint. There were also Roger stories in the early issues of Disney Adventures. Roger was everywhere for awhile, then basically disappeared. Obviously, none of that stuff came close to matching the quality or the uniqueness of the movie.

Oops, left a comment unfinished. But yeah, unless Disney sees any profit in doing so, RR reprints might not be as likely due to Amblin co-owning the stuff.

So not sure if anyone here read it, but besides the graphic novel adaptation of Who Framed Roger Rabbit, there was a GN sequel to it (well the movie) by Marvel titled "Resurrection of Doom".

Yep 2 Roger Rabbit GNs being the first times that Marvel and Disney were professionally involved with each other.*

It featured the return of and origin of Judge Doom in that he was [SPOILER] a toon star that played villain roles until an injury pushed into being a real bad guy [/SPOILER].

Well due to this YT video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWYQGYVWBwU

I found these links to a behind the scenes blog post on it:

- https://bob-foster.blogspot.com/2009/07/resurrection-of-doom.html?m=1

- https://bob-foster.blogspot.com/2009/07/resurrection-of-doom-part-2.html?m=1

- https://bob-foster.blogspot.com/2009/07/resurrection-of-doom-part-3.html?m=1

I recommend the video also. And yeah if you see any RR comics and have money to spare, it probably is good to purchase some as otherwise Disney and Amblin would have to cooperate with one another.

A notable change in the GN is [SPOILER] Doom having played all classic Disney villains including the Queen of Hearts [/SPOILER].


Sorry for the missing slash in the "end SPOILER' tag. I don't know how I forgot to include it.
Todd Jensen

Sorry for the double post, but a couple of other things.

ARLO - That was a good analysis on Macbeth and "City of Stone" - and I'm actually one of the apparently few who considers Macbeth among my favorite "Gargoyles" characters. I found your description of Macbeth as a prince seeking to avenge his father amusing, since it's a great description of another Shakespearean lead - though I don't know if that was intentional or not.

I've now had a look at the preview pages that Phoenician linked to. [SPOILER] One part that stood out to me was the guy describing gargoyles as menaces and threats; I assume that's intended as an allusion to J. Jonah Jameson's proposed headline in "The Spectacular Spider-Man" - "Spiderman: Threat or Menace?" I'm not enough of a Spiderman expert to know if Jonah was describing Spiderman with those words in earlier versions - though I recall Goliath quoting them in his first encounter with Spiderman in the Radio Play - but it does look as if Greg's paying a tribute to another of his animated series, at least. (And this alongside the Batman reference in the first issue.) [SPOILER]

Todd Jensen

MATTHEW - I first learned about "Bone" through "Disney Adventures" too, though I'd forgotten that the early parts of it had appeared in its pages until you mentioned it.
Todd Jensen

Nevermind. Checked the title on GargWiki and found I was off.

Craig> Thanks for the shout out last week, and ironically I'll be getting my copy of Volume 2 just a bit later.

Phoenician> Also minor, but [SPOILER] nice little Beauty and the Beast reference with the title [/SPOILER].


Here's an observation. Feel free to correct me if anyone feels I'm wrong, but when the question has come up of who everyone's favorite character is, I see surprisingly few people list Macbeth. The reason I find this surprising is because when the question is asked what everyone's favorite episodes are, City of Stone almost invariably comes up as everyone's top favorite.

Granted, the episode is about both Macbeth and Demona, and a number of people do tend to list Demona as a favorite character a bit more than Macbeth. And for understandable reasons. Not only is she a rare example of a complex female character in television, one who doesn't fit into any cookie-cutter mold of female characters without sacrificing any of her femininity, but she also leads the series in exploring aspects of bigotry and explores complex situations in a way that makes her interesting in her own right, regardless of gender. In terms of being interesting, she can hold her own against any male character.

Nevertheless, while City of Stone is about both Macbeth and Demona, I do think the case can be made that in a way, it's almost more Macbeth's story. If you think about the fairy tale trope of the young prince whose father is slain growing up to avenge his father and ultimately becoming king, and then the tragic end of being betrayed in the end, even though Demona's story is interesting and even though it does draw us in, I would argue that, while seeing the background scenes from Awakening draws us in, it's the story of young Macbeth that intrigues us further and makes us want to keep tooning in to watch the next episode in each of the four parts. Gargoyles as a series first draws us in by being a show about the medieval ages, while still being a little different. This isn't the typical story about prince and the princess. Instead, it's a story about other creatures, the kind most shows cast as the bad guys, yet here they're the good guys. They have no kings or princes like other stories. The unexplored factor is enough to draw us in. Then, when it's gotten us hooked, it turns the tables again by giving us Macbeth's story about the young prince who grows up to avenge his father's murder. Paradoxically, it becomes different and intriguing again by being a different and intriguing show that comes full circle to go back to the standard fairy tale trope.

So TL;DR: Why do you suppose it is that Macbeth doesn't seem to be listed as most fans' favorite character, despite City of Stone consistently being listed as their favorite set of episodes?

Gargoyles need not apply.

I recall a lot of the Disney Adventures, at least vaguely, and when I read them the details come flooding back. It's a nice little nostalgia hit. I particularly recall a Darkwing Duck series of stories where he confronts a nemesis exclusive to those comics (I won't spoil the name of the nemesis, as I believe some of those stories are due to be reprinted in the upcoming third volume of the Fantagraphics series). I also pretty vividly recall a TaleSpin multi-parter that was sort of a Lost Horizon kind of story where Baloo and company are searching for Shambahla, which I'd love to read again.

Very excited for the new Gargoyles tomorrow. Will hopefully be able to read it first thing in the morning.


So based on previews for tomorrow's issue (if you wish to partake: https://bleedingcool.com/comics/gargoyles-4-preview-dino-dracon-uncaged/ ), [SPOILER] looks like we have last names for some of our rival gang leaders. Can't help but remember the last names of Sanchez and Choi -- In "High Noon", there was the follow-up to the "Lighthouse in the Sea of Time" with Hudson and Broadway practicing their reading and learning about a boy named Ollie getting rescued by a Rosaria Sanchez and Peter Choy. GargWiki has Peter's last name listed as Choy, but it was only ever heard, not shown, if memory serves correctly . . . ? [/SPOILER]
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."

I didn't read the Disney Adventure magazine, but one time in college a friend let me look through his back issues and I kept the one that inspired The Price.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

The Disney Adventures magazine occupies an odd place for me. It was such a large part of my childhood but I don't remember all that much about it. The two biggest things that stuck with me was the crossover "Legend of the Chaos God" and that it was my introduction to Bone.
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Thanks for the latest review, Craig.

I haven't read the "Disney Adventures" collections from Fantagraphics Books, but I have collected their reprints of the Carl Barks and Don Rosa Donald Duck and Scrooge McDuck comics, which I highly recommend. (Also their reprints of the Mickey Mouse newspaper strip back in the 30's to 50's - as well as a few non-Disney reprints such as "Peanuts" and "Prince Valiant"). Some of the Carl Barks stories were familiar to me - I'd seen adaptations of them in a weekly "Mickey Mouse" comic I read in England as a boy; adapted since they slightly "Britishized" it, changing all the allusions to U.S. money to British currency, so that Scrooge's No. 1 Dime was now called his "Lucky Penny", for example - but others were new to me. (Speaking of that dime, I was amused to discover, in the story that introduced Magica de Spell in one of the more recent reprints, that her plan for turning the dime into a money-controlling amulet involved harnessing the heat of Mt. Vesuviua. I couldn't help thinking "What is it with using the heat of a volcano to create powerful magical artifacts?" - and then recalled, in the original "Duck Tales" series, a scene where Magica, having stolen the No. 1 Dime and preparing to turn it into that amulet, was eagerly crying "One dime to rule them all! One dime to bind them!" Those words seemed all the more appropriate after that.)

Todd Jensen

One other oddity I forgot to mention in the second Gummi Bears comic is that the final panel seems to imply that the Gummis live in a cottage, as opposed to Gummi Glen as depicted on the show. Another indication that the writer and artist were not terribly familiar with the show, unfortunately.

I got the second volume of Fantagraphics's Disney Afternoon Adventures and enjoyed it. I'll be more brief than I was for the first.

The two Gummi Bears stories are the main reason I bought it, as they're new to the USA. They're both bridge-themed (and in fact bridges figure into central sequences in a couple of other stories in this volume as well; unclear if this was an intentional motif). They're also both a bit odd. In particular, the first one (written by veteran Looney Tunes/Walter Lantz animator/story man/occasional director Cal Howard) has a number of anachronisms (a modern-day scale, a bowling ball, a reference to donuts), as well as the characters breaking the fourth wall and behaving out of character (Zummi is oddly dominant and Gruffi is oddly submissive, very weird). The second one is odd due to the implication that Cubbi can just go to the store, whereas the Gummis were very reclusive and avoided humanity on the show. It also features a 'Laverne & Shirley' reference as well as a somewhat scandalous reference (for Disney during that era) to a woman being pregnant (there's a reason Disney characters always had uncles but rarely had parents, particularly mothers...Disney seemed REALLY squeamish about even hinting at the realities of human reproduction. Thankfully they've gotten better about that). The second story does have Igthorn, who's always fun. Both stories have art by the ubiquitous Jaime Diaz Studio who did so much work for Disney during that period (including most of the stories in this volume), and are characteristically functional and on-model but don't bring a lot to the table in terms of expressiveness. The only other story that was completely new to me in this one was a one-page DuckTales gag from Denmark.

The cover features TaleSpin, and after being short-changed in the first volume, TaleSpin certainly dominates here, with three long stories which are the highlights. In particular, "It's a Plunderful Life" (from Disney Adventures) has a lovely and unusual art style by Luciano Gatto and the legendary Romano Scarpa, who together did the coloring in addition to the art, in a style that makes the backgrounds look almost painted, very different from the other stories in the book. And "The Long Flight Home" (from Disney Comics's TaleSpin comic book) is a really nice deep dive into Kit Cloudkicker's past with some good emotional beats.

Other than that, there's a Rescue Rangers story from their Disney Comics book which delves into Monty's past (and Gadget's as well, a bit). The other stories are from Disney Adventures, including a couple of fun Darkwing Duck adventures and a short Timon & Pumbaa story.


Happy Equinox! According to the math, five more years before the next generation of gargoyle eggs are laid. The second generation after Egwardo's compared to where we are in the comics d:

I am giddy that we are getting issue #4 this week and (while it is somewhat old news) I'm thrilled we are indeed getting more than six issues!

Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."

Good points on the gargoyles being hunters themselves - though still, their past history with humans and the hunters in "Bambi" being humans (forever off-stage humans, which might make them creepier) might raise a bit of unease.

We've now got the "logline" for #7. Judging from it, [SPOILER] the troubles raised in the next issue - Dino Dracon threatening both the clan and New York, and Goliath imprisoned, apparently by the city authorities - aren't going to be resolved by the end of #6; I wonder if this is going to be the comics equivalent of what would have been a multi-part episode in the "Disney Afternoon" period. And I'm curious about the three new objects of power that Demona's after; what are the successors to the Grimorum Arcanorum, Eye of Odin, and Phoenix Gate? [/SPOILER]

Todd Jensen

I think it bears mentioning that gargoyles themselves are hunters. Second told Demona, "The hunting there was good!" The Trio might be less bothered by deer being hunted than the typical New Yorker might be!

Also, I think the destruction of Scottish Clans had already begun to a degree by the time of the Wyvern Massacre. I'm not sure what I'm basing it on, but Goliath at least felt fairly isolated when the others were cursed ("now I am truly alone..." I suspect the Wyvern Splinter Clan was already known to be gone (or at least broken up to some extent) by this point or certainly Goliath would've had the eggs taken to them (afterall, they were their children!) and perhaps would've joined joined that clan.

Constantine and Gillecomgain obviously accelerated the destruction, but I can't see the Wyvern Massacre being the first in the region.

And yes, looking forward to the next issue this week! A day and a half to go!

"Well, I'm back..." -Samwise Gamgee, Lord of the Rings


Naturally, the Clan wouldn't have the same negative connotations towards hunting and hunters (up until they were...you know, hunted) that most kids would. They did just recently come out of medieval ages where hunting was a necessary way of life, plus the stone sleep had them miss out on the purge and subsequent hunting of the Scottish Clans.

Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!


A leftover thought from the posts about "Bambi" and hunters. The trio had gone to see "Bambi" in "Re-Awakening"; I wonder how they responded to the hunting/"man is in the forest" element. (The Hunters hadn't been introduced into the series at that point, of course, but the element of humans hunting gargoyles had, particularly with the Pack.)

Todd Jensen

First, in the name of getting a new issue this week!
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]