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The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending April 16, 2023

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One of the elements that didn't get in because of the truncated third season.

As I mentioned before, one other neat little bit in the last episode was the Titan's message to King, "I loaf you" - father and son share a love of bread puns.

Todd Jensen

Antiyonder> I'll admit that I didn't make that connection.
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Matthew> So when you saw Steve with his face revealed in "O' Titan, Where Art Thou?", did you [SPOILER] recognize his relation to Matt Tholomule? Step brothers according to Dana [/SPOILER].

Thanks Todd, there were plenty of good bits this episode, I was tempted to include King's dig at the rules of grudgby but there was already a lot of dialogue to put in.
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

MATTHEW - Thanks for your review of "Watching and Dreaming"; like always, a good review - and including some of the best quotes in the series (such as the Collector's bewilderment and increasing alarm at Luz's death, the echo back to the beginning of the series as Luz takes Belos down, her voice-over narration, and the way the cast at the end are saying "Bye" to both the Collector and the audience).

One of the particular triumphs of the show, I think, was giving the Boiling Isles a nightmarish exterior (based on the art of Hieronymus Bosch) - with some moments to match, particularly with Belos - and yet this sweetness beneath it that showed itself so many times, especially at the end.

Todd Jensen

Matthew> Heck, when it comes to Belos being evil, well it's a given that he offed a Golden Guard who might have questioned him or planned to stop his plans for the Isle.

But I bet besides Hunter, some might have even been killed cause they were falling in love with a witch.


Now, this is the world we live in
And these are the hands we're given
Use them and let's start trying
To make it a place worth fighting for

This is the world we live in
And these are the names we're given
Stand up and let's start showing
Just where our lives are going to

And now we come to the finale, watched "Watching and Dreaming" today. To start off, I would be remiss if I didn't bring up the fact that Dana and the team managed to make a really good finale even with all interference from the higher-ups at Disney. While too much had to cut in order to fit in the proper arc and conclusion for the series, I can safety say that they succeeded in creating a satisfying ending. But that also creates an interesting conundrum, how does someone describe a satisfying conclusion? In some cases I tend to think of it as a bit bittersweet, bitter in that you don't want to see the end of something you had a strong emotional attachment to. But sweet in that you feel good for the characters to have a happy ending.

One of the big points of the episode is the gradual shift of The Collector, from antagonist to hesitant student to ally. One thing the show did a good job was making sure that The Collector wasn't too awful that audiences wouldn't be put off by their redemption and eventual joining with the heroes. Shows like Steven Universe and especially Naruto abused the whole "talking the bad guy into joining the side of good" bit where it almost feels like nothing anymore, a convenience rather than a matter of effort from the writers. But the reason it works here is because the show knew ahead of time on what kind of character Collector is, dangerous but not malicious; even trapping Luz, Eda and King in their worst nightmares was at Belos' prodding rather than their own idea. It's established here that because they have no concept of mortality, the draining spell didn't feel like that big of a deal. Because they treat all others except King like itty-bitty spiders they have no clue that the people of the Boiling Isles have a sense of self and needs and desires that don't have anything to do with playing dangerous games. Even when our trio turns The Collectors games against them their anger soon gives way to loneliness, because that's been the biggest driving force for them this whole series, not wanting to be alone.

I imagine in a longer series, we could've gone into more detail about Luz recapping the emotional journey from there to here. But all the same it was important that we were given the abridged version of sorts. The Collector was all to happy to mimic the adventures they had in the game of pretend, but they didn't understand the deeper meaning of those adventures and the lessons that were learned. Again, I feel like if we had a whole season we could've gone into Luz discussing the nature of mortality, like the loss of her father and of Flapjack and what that means to mortals. Or the intricacies of turning enemies into friends and how it was a long process of choices and actions that saw Amity turn from rival to friend to girlfriend or Lilith and the rise, fall and reparation of her and Eda's relationship. But for the first time ever, The Collector seems to understand the nature of kindness and how that leads to forgiveness and how that turns others into friends. But it was also necessary to show them that there are those who are also beyond redemption.

This is where Belos' villainy reaches its awful conclusion, the holier than thou need for an inquisition has extended beyond wanting to purge the Boiling Isles of witches. Now with this last act of...let's just call it blasphemy, he's turned his anger towards everything. He might've been content of destroying everyone with a Coven sigil but now he's turned that the Demon Realm itself, corrupting plant, animal, demon, witch and human alike. I actually like that moment of pause after The Collector hugs him offering kindness and forgiveness. Like he's so taken aback by this moment of humanity that he has no idea what to do next. But at each opportunity he's been given to reflect and recognize his mistakes, he's thrown that away for something worse. The murder of his brother spurred him to create the Grimwalkers, and he throws them away each time they grow a conscious. He sees the ghosts of everyone he's murdered or turned his back on, and he scoffs and goes on to possess Raine while they're a helpless puppet. Even when he manages to sneak his way back to the human realm, he's murdering animals sustain himself, trying to possess Hunter and heading back to the Demon Realm for one last chance of the eradication he dreamed of. We may not know the full story of his fallout with Caleb or his time as a witch-hunter, but one thing is clear, in all the centuries of life he was never going to stop being the prideful, spiteful monster killing not because of a misplaced sense of salvation, but because he enjoyed it.

Which brings us to The Titan themselves, I'll admit I'm going to use male pronouns when referring to him (mostly because of King and his need for a Dad figure). Something I hadn't mentioned before was the little touches that showed up here and there that foreshadowed that the dead-looking Titan wasn't as dead as we thought. Even with the still beating heart there's been bits that indicated that there was still some life in him. Belos' mentioning how long it took him to master combining glyphs like the Titan didn't want him to learn them while Luz mastered them in less than a year. In fact, Eda's connection to the Titan and how that helped her teach Luz magic might've been him helping her along. In fact, who's to say that he hasn't been nudging Eda and Lilith along with glyph magic as a small way of thanks for looking after King? Even the boiling rain that ultimately helped finish off Belos might've been from him; it would've been appropriate considering his defeat pretty much came at the hands of those he abused. I think the only way it could've been better was if Lilith and Hooty was there too, maybe Hooty in his Moving Owl House form giving off one final big stomp. Ah well.

To wrap up, I read in an interview that Dana Terrace mentioned that she wasn't a fan of "happily ever afters" but also clarified that that isn't the same as a happy ending. And that I think was what the main goal for both the wrap up and the epilogue. The Boiling Isles have changed dramatically, but that doesn't mean things can't be repaired, it's just going to take some time to rebuild and reconnect. Luz might've lost her ability to use glyph magic, but that doesn't mean that it won't ever come back, King just needs some time to learn his own glyphs. One chapter ends and another begins and with love and togetherness things that may seem difficult or impossible aren't nearly as tough as we think. For the longest time Luz imagined having to choose her home or the other home she found, but one little gift from the Collector meant she didn't have to. Now a new chapter for both the human realm and the Demon Realm could be written together. A happy ending doesn't mean that there won't be hardships further down the line, but it is comforting to know that there'll be good witches and good humans to light the way.

Some Final Thoughts:
They sure had some fun with the fakeouts at the climax, making it look like Luz had to leave everything behind, then like she hasn't been to the Boiling Isles since their last adenture, but no. She's been going back and forth for some time, seeing them as whenever she wanted to. According to the crew, they've put bits and pieces of themselves in the background of the series, it looks like we got one last one in the form of Dana awarding Luz her writing scholarship. It's a little thing but I like that. I haven't talked much about the music but I really enjoy the themes for the show, the opening is frantic, silly and adventurous letting you know just how bizarre a show you're getting into. While the ending theme is sweet, peaceful and a little bit wistful. Like you're flipping through a photo album and start getting misty-eyed from happy nostalgia, because you feel the same now as you did back then. The epilogue just cranked all that up with the montage of where are they now, and my one hope is that we get to see some more of that maybe in comic form. Of Eda now leading a new university (and still rocking the pirate look), of the new teachers of Hexside, of what might become of Willow and Hunter's ship tease, of where Luz and Amity's relationship may take them, and what new adventures our lovable band of weirdos might discover next.

In conclusion, thank you crew of the Owl House for giving us this delightfully weird and wholesome adventure. And thank you all for introducing me to this show.

Favorite Lines:

Luz: Amity, is that you? Is it really you?
Amity: Yes! We've all been collected, including Camila. The Collector came from the sky, and-
Gus: He's playing games with you, Luz. He's trying to keep you away from King and Eda!
Willow: But if you want to save anyone, you have to wake up!
Luz: How?
Hunter: Think about it. What's the first thing you do when you wake up from a bad dream?
Amity: You turn on the light.

The Collector: I don't get it, King. I really don't get it. I thought you loved playing our games. Why do you choose these itty bitty spiders over me?
Eda: Because your games stink, squirt!
Luz: And spiders are awesome!
King: Yeah! Especially the itty bitty ones!

The Collector: I know it's just pretend. I don't care. I'll pretend as long as I want.
Luz: But that's not what you want, is it?
The Collector: (Scoffs) What do you know?
Eda: We know what it's like to feel alone.
King: And abandoned—
Luz: And misunderstood. Hey, what if we showed you how we became friends?
The Collector: King already told me about your adventures.
Luz: It's different when you can see them. What do you think? Can we tell you our stories?

The Collector: Huh? But I thought I was doing the right thing.
Luz: (Comfortingly) No, no, you did good, Collector. But this is a little more complicated. Don't worry, I think it—missed—me.

(But Luz realizes that it did hit her, the corrupted moss spreading from her fingers down to the rest of her body. Groaning in pain, she begins to break down into motes of light)

The Collector: Luz? What's happening?
Luz: Eda, King, looks like we're gonna be split up again. I feel like I should be used to this feeling by now, but— I still don't know what to say.

(As Eda and King watch in horrified disbelief, the corruption overtakes all of Luz. The Collector keeps hold of one mote of light while the rest drift away)

The Collector: (Genuinely confused) Where'd she go?

(The lights drift across the corrupted Boiling Isles, past Hexside as Skara and Mattholomule try to hold out, all the way up into the Archives. Where they drift past Willow, Gus, and Amity who watch in saddened confusion.)

Amity: What...is this?

(Among the collections, the puppet of Camila begins to cry involuntarily.)

The Collector: Luz? Luz? Yoo-hoo! You can come out now. Well, it's okay, she just broke, so I'll fix her. (They snaps their fingers, but the spell dissipates.) What? Why isn't it working? The Archivists aren't here, they couldn't have taken her.

(Belos fires another beam at The Collector, but King, looking absolutely feral, leaps in front, blocking the blast with shield of light.)

King: (Roaring) WRAH!
The Collector: Owl Lady, you know where Luz is, right?

(Eda's eyes have turned to pure black and though her tone is even, there's an unmistakable fury in her voice.)

Eda: Back up, kid. I don't think I can control myself right now.

(Eda transforms into an even larger and more ferocious Owl Beast. And with a primal screech grabs King to avenge Luz on Belos or die trying.)

Luz: I'm not so kind. When I saw the Collector fly up to Belos, I hoped with all my heart I would see them blast him away, and— (sighs)
Papa Titan: Hey, I can relate. I was willing to do anything to keep my kid safe. But I attacked the wrong person. Dragged the Collector down here for nothing.
Luz: Does that make us as bad as Belos?
Papa Titan: What? Have you been drinking Eda's homemade Apple Blood?
Luz: Well, Belos says he's trying to save humanity. And we are saying we want to save our families. So isn't that the same thing? Don't—Don't these feelings come from the same place?
Papa Titan: You assume Belos's goal comes from a genuine place. But that man doesn't care about about anything but his need to be the hero in his own delusion. And because of that, he fears what he can't control.
Luz: And now that fear is going to win.
Papa Titan: Ah, dang.

(The unmistakable corruption begins to show on the elder Titan's chest and Luz gasps.)

Papa Titan: I thought I had more time left. But Belos will have full control soon. You ready to stop him?
Luz: What? What can I do?
Papa Titan: You've already helped King so much. So let me use my last bit of life to help you.

9The Titan extends his hand. On it, various glyphs appear.)

Luz: Are you sure you wanna give this power to me?
Papa Titan: Well, you're the one here, and you seem like a good witch. But I can't give you anything unless you choose to accept it. So the question is, will you choose yourself?

Luz: We have to cut off Belos from the Titan's power!
Eda: What are you thinking?
Luz: Mm-hmm. C’mon, Eda. You know where magic comes from.
(Eda beams at her)
Eda, Luz and King: FROM THE HEART!

Belos: You can't defeat me!

(A large number of hands manifest and attempt to hurt Luz. Eda slices them up with her harpy magic. Raine whistles at the moss and causes it to retreat. King releases his powers and helps to protect Luz.)

Luz: Do not underestimate me, Belos. For I am the Good Witch Luz, Child of the Human Realm, Student of the Demon Realm, and Warrior of Peace!

(Luz's eyes glow orange and various glyphs manifest around her hands. The False Titan yells in agony and everything shakes again. The Collector struggles to hold up the Archives. Eda, Raine, and King continuously attack.)


[(With one final pull, Luz rips Belos from the Titan's heart.)[/i]

Philip: Luz— Luz, I'm- I'm free. Thank goodness you saved me from- (he pauses his speech as he sweats nervously) From that horrible curse.

(Luz says nothing but glares at him, a look of disgust and pity.)

Philip: Yes, I-I was cursed with a terrible, terrible sickness, by— by dark magic, just like your mentor.

(As he speaks, the sky slowly turns dark.)

Philip: It forced me to do all those horrible things, but-but now, I'm free.

(Boiling rain begins to fall on Philip and his human form begins to melt away, revealing the slimy monster he really is.)

Philip: AH! Qui-Quickly, now! Don't- Don't you want- to make peace - Luz?

(Luz's face remains neutral, the boiling rain not affecting her at all.)

Philip: Don't just stand there! You'll be just as bad, just as conniving, just as evil, and just as unforgivable as those witches!

Belos: (Clinging to Luz's leg) We're human. We're better than this!

(Luz steps away from the pathetic creature as a angry looking Eda, King and Raine and glare at him.)

Eda: Well, we ain't!
Philip: Huh?

(The three angrily stomp down on him until there's nothing of the witch-hunter left.)

Raine: That was extremely satisfying.
King: Nyeh! Nyeh! Nyeh! Nyeh! Nyeh! Ew, it's on my claws! Weh.

Luz: And that's how we saved the Boiling Isles. Well, as much as we could. We were so relieved to see everyone safely released from the Archives. They were spared the worst of it, at least. Because of that, everyone got to reunite with their families and loved ones. And if someone thought they had no one waiting for them, well, they were in for a nice surprise. Still, there was a lot of work to be done, and not everyone was keen to change things. But we were ready to give it a shot. All of us. As for The Collector, he and I made a pinky promise to keep trying our best. He said he had a lot of growing up to do, so he decided to return to the stars. No one argued, but I think I heard King whisper, "I hope I see you again." We got our happy ending, but I realized something in that moment. When the Titan had finally passed on, so did the powers of the glyphs. I had learned the Titan's language, but now I had no one to speak it to. It had helped me find my place when I had no other way. In my heart, I'll never forget it. A whole chapter of my life was over — but a new one was just beginning.

Vee: Hurry, hurry!
Luz: What's the rush Vee? No one's gonna be mad if we're a little late.
Camila: Yes, but today is special.
Luz: Okay, okay.
Everyone: SURPRISE!

(It is revealed all of her friends and family threw a King-ceanera for Luz. Everyone applauds as Amity runs up to her and hugs her.)

Luz: (Overwhelmed) What is this? (Amity kisses her on the cheek.)
Eda: Well, since you spent your fifteenth birthday helping us rebuild the Isles—

King: And sixteenth, and seventeenth.
Amity: We wanted to make it up to you.
Willow: Camila told us all about your quinceañeras from the Human Realm.
Gus: And they sounded a lot less haunted than our birthdays.
Lilith: Nevertheless, I made sure we followed Camila's instructions perfectly!

Camila: I- um-

(Hooty has made a structure with a Snaggleback hanging downwards. It is titled "Pain-yata." The Bat Children come by holding a purple bell piñata and hide the demon. The Echo Mouse sews on a jewel and shows off their handiwork. Steve cuts a slice from a Good WItch Azura themed dress cake, and hundreds of small spiders pour out. They cover Steve and he smiles widely. Camila is visibly concerned.)

Camila: (Nervously) Great work everyone. Muy bueno.
King: And look, look!

(He starts drawing a sigil on the ground, then taps it and a light orb manifests. Luz gasps as she holds it in her hand.)

Eda: King's powers are getting stronger. Yeah, and it looks like they're different from his dad's. But hey, you've got a whole new glyph language to try out.
Luz: Guys—
King: We've got another surprise. The Collector was in the area and well, he wanted to do something special for the occasion. Look!

(In the sky, colors and stars swirl before releasing a stream of brilliant comets and star bursts exploding like fireworks while the part below watch in amazement.)

Luz: Eda, King, thank you. For everything.
Eda: Right back at ya, kiddo.
Luz: (offers her hand) Weirdos?
Eda and King: Weirdos. (the two take it as Luz tearfully smiles)
Luz: (gasps) They're nearly gone. Okay everyone, on the count of three. One, two, three!

Everyone: Byeeee!

Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Thanks for posting the links to these strips, Antiyonder; as others here have mentioned, they really catch the tone of the show very well. (One of my favorites was Luz talking about the "Good Witch Azura" books ending too soon; I can definitely guess what inspired the person who drew those strips to put that in.
Todd Jensen

Also a couple of future strips with Hunter and the child he along with Willow has.

Warning: The content will be adorable with the second being heartwarming and tearful:

- https://moringmark.tumblr.com/post/701266661680021504

- https://moringmark.tumblr.com/post/701538452266680320



Proof that the almighty deity works in mysterious ways.XD


Criminal cases in Manhattan certainly take a year or in many cases two years or more to resolve, from arrest to trial or plea. The reason for this is motion practice, hearings, ongoing plea negotiations with a variety of outside factors often at play on both sides, and more than anything, a glutted court system. This was particularly true in the high-crime 1990s. Cases often get long adjournments, as we saw recently in a high-profile case involving a certain former President, where the next date was set for December. However, when a defendant is incarcerated, the courts do tend to prioritize those cases and move them along more quickly (but still not very quickly).

Goliath's case might receive special attention and be expedited, due to the high levels of public interest and the worldwide desire for answers about this newly-discovered species. On the other side of the coin, this proceeding would be so novel and unprecedented, as we've discussed previously, the court would certainly want to take its time to make sure it got everything right and to figure out what such a proceeding would even look like.

In any event, I doubt Greg will keep Goliath in custody for more than maybe three issues (although doing so would certainly be a brave move). Perhaps there will be a time jump of a few months. Greg also has a good friend who I believe is a now-retired Deputy District Attorney in L.A. for many years, who gave criminal justice (and Scottish history) advice free of charge on the original show. Hopefully he's in touch with her about all this stuff.


The Crown of Thorns seems like a bit of an... odd thing to make a talisman type thing in Gargoyles. One thing is, a trial like Goliath's would take a *long* time. Probably at least a year. That's how long the murder trial in Hill Street Blues took. There's a murder that takes place in season 2, and the trial happens in the middle of season 3. Feel like that's something Greg would follow.

I'm excited to record episode #2 of my podcast tonight.

Alex (Aldrius)

B> Yep. Also a Lumity kid learning that somethings come to an end: https://moringmark.tumblr.com/post/714040833372995584

And yeah, I totally expect one of the kids to be name Azura at some point.


Antiyonder> That creator's obviously really talented and imaginative.

The Owl House: [SPOILER] I personally prefer 'Fuzzy Luz' since that was how Raine described her. [/SPOILER]

As for other talismans in the upcoming issues, [SPOILER] I don't think its likely to be a future Key of Power, but best not forget the Mayan Sun Amulet that the Manhattan Clan still has in their possession. [/SPOILER]

Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."

So a problem with the finale. Raine has seen Eda twice in the series in her harpy form. But, [SPOILER] Amity never got to see Titan Luz [/SPOILER]. So here is a remedy to that:



A thought about potential new Shakespeare references in "Gargoyles". With the "trial of Goliath" evidently coming up, there's the opportunity for the line from "Henry VI Part Two", "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers" to get in somewhere. Maybe spoken by Demona; it'd be particularly tempting for her to direct it at Margot. (If we do get Demona and Margot confronting each other, for that matter, it'd be great if we got in an allusion to their both being voiced by Marina Sirtis, kind of like the scene in "The Owl House" where King's complaining about Hooty's voice.)
Todd Jensen

I'd hope the rest of you OH viewers are Lumity fans.XD As the bird tube himself said "They're adorable and deserve all the happiness".

But yeah while Eda did have King since he was a baby, I wonder how a newborn baby would take to Hooty.


Just found out that the link I'd posted was for just one of the strips in that fan-art series (though it'd be popular with Lumity fans). Here's the link for the series as a whole.


Todd Jensen

ED - Some good thoughts on how they caught the trio's likeness in those masks. I hadn't thought about an in-story explanation myself, but I like those theories.

MATTHEW - I'm looking forward to your review.

The person who did those comics that Antiyonder posted links to also (I assume it's the same person; it's at the same site) did a fan-comic called "Witches Among Humans" which imagined "The Owl House" in reverse; here, the alternate version of Luz is a young wild witch from the Boiling Isles who wound up on Earth, with human counterparts to Eda, Amity, Willow, Gus, Lilith, and others from the first season - and King's counterpart is Eda's pet cat. You can find it here:


Todd Jensen

Oh and a pretty nice moment in Thanks to Them is Luz/Amity's presenting their slide show via Lumity Studios. Basically Dana using the shipping term in Canon.

And yeah, I bet Camila knew before hand about them, but figure it the slideshow was important to them.


B> I am planning on doing a review on "Watching and Dreaming," probably this weekend. Give it a full week after the episode's release.

Antiyonder> Those are some great little comics, the author really captured the goofy, sweet nature of the cast of characters.

Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Jurgan> No, it's a [SPOILER] Legion of Superheroes [/SPOILER] ring (spoilers for something recognizable from the comics but you may not want to know in advance as a significant plotline of the coming season).

Yes, interesting points all about the Crown of Thorns. I guess we'll have to see.

Matthew: I'd forgotten about the one in 'Bone'. Interesting.

Matt: Me too!

Todd: I wondered about the masks too. Three possible head canon explanations:

1) For several months, lots of New Yorkers and "gargoyle-spotter" tourists now carry cameras around Manhattan hoping to get a sighting. Although many of these are bogus, there have been several decent images of the Trio so they are relatively famous in the underground gargoyle-spotting community (and therefore to the mask-manufacturers looking to profit off the ever-growing demand for merchandise to sell tourists).

2) A variant on the first, but the Dracon operation - knowing that the gargoyles are serial threats to their business - have paid particular attention to gathering as much information as they can on the creatures, including footage to gather a good likeness. The thought of gangsters taking videocameras with them as they commit their crimes seems a bit Nixonian so I'm less enamoured of this one.

3) The silliest suggestion but the one that amuses me most. After the pictures of Xanatos' Hallowe'en bash hit the papers, lots of people saw the costumes of Brooklyn, Broadway and Lexington and agreed that these looked like the most realistic gargoyles and so when newspapers want to use photos of gargoyles for light filler stories, absent any better footage, they use pictures of Xanatos' strangely anonymous party guests to add a bit of levity.


Oh and why Flapjack acted a bit weird in Thanks to Them: https://moringmark.tumblr.com/post/702625615471427584

Bird had a plan.


B> Glad you like them. Here's Papa Titan observing how the Owl Mom operates: https://moringmark.tumblr.com/post/714403225733922817

"By the way, you happen to catch that ring that showed up on the waitress at the end?"

I saw it, but I didn't get the significance. Was it The light's insignia?

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Matthew> Good thing Artemis isn't fluent in backwards or she'd have realized Zatanna's incantation said, "This is just a show of light and sounds!"

And like Roy said with Dick, he and Wally both have red hair. ;)

Brion's new advisor/influencer Zviad Baazovi (Bad Samaritan in the comics) is creepy. Oh, and now I made myself think of what if he were a social media influencer as well as a psychic influencer.

Are you going to do an actual review for "Watching and Dreaming"?

Jurgan> Looking forward to your final thoughts!

Antiyonder> Thanks for the comic strip, again. That was funny. I can totally see Luz doing that.


"Overwhelmed" one of the many big emotional episodes of the season, and it's always good to hear Jason Spisak as Wally. It was explained that M'gann and Zatanna cooked up the "meeting in Limbo" ruse together, Z creates a lightshow that hides away Artemis and M'gann creates a mindscape for her to imagine her reunion. Even with the best intentions it's still just a little ehhh, morally speaking. Before Greg confirmed that all of it was Artemis' subconscious, there was a lot of speculation on where her imagination ended and M'gann's telepathy began. And while it does offer a bit of closure on Artemis' part it did add one more element to the Schrodinger's Wally theories. Especially since secrets being revealed is par the course for the series.

As for Artemis and Will's storyline, this was just my own headcanon, but I feel like there was a lot of projection on what they hoped for in their previous relationship. Artemis sees Will playing dad and that reminds her of the domestic life she wanted with Wally (it's not for nothing her imagination has her pregnant), and Will sees the adventurous and slightly shady attitude that attracted him to Jade in the first place. It was necessary for them to work out these complications in order to be able to move forward together even if they're not together together.

"Nevermore." Man, there were so many people expecting Raven to show up just because of the title. The fallout of the Markov drama was something no one saw coming; Terra ultimately moving away from Deathstroke's manipulations and Brion taking the throne and kicking his friends out. This sparked quite a number of debates, discussions and arguments but I did like that it brought up the topic on who exactly gets to arbitrate the ethics of superheroics.

I think it was rather important after the Anti-Light and their machinations blowing up in their faces that we have that reveal from Superboy and the genomorphs. Properly show that honesty has more power than lies and deception. And it's because of that reveal that the League is able to continue forward, not because of Luthor being ousted from the U.N. but because their friends and colleagues are ending the shadow politics and they're all moving forward together.

By the way, you happen to catch that ring that showed up on the waitress at the end?

Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Oh and another potential Owl House ending courtesy of MoringMark: https://moringmark.tumblr.com/post/663578319093153792

Yeah Jurgans review and a social commentary is something I imagine as an Owl House headcanon.

Basically one of the Hexside Squad stating, sure humans aren't perfect, but they wouldn't put a criminal in power knowingly.

And Luz nervously laughing and saying "Yeah, that would be dumb".XD


Young Justice 3x26: Nevermore

This was a jam-packed extended finale, complete with the "Return of the King" style multiple endings. Brion's story took an incredibly dark turn with his cold-blooded murder of his uncle. That was genuinely shocking to me, and I'm not sure how it fits in with his character. I think the reveal that Tara was a traitor and the Team had known the whole time pushed him into a "take matters into my own hands" mindset. His recruiting Jace shows how far he's falling; it's reminiscent of Operation Paperclip. Luthor's goons joining him is just another layer. Granted, there's a psychic manipulating him, but it's clear he still had the ability to say no if he wanted to.

I'd been predicting for a while that Tara would reverse betray Slade and confess to the Team, but them knowing all along surprised me. The notion that Batman can detect lying by observing "microexpressions" is pretty silly to me, but it's a minor part of the reveal. OTOH, I really like Artemis letting her make her own choice and not busting her right away. There's a weird thing about trust here, they had to lie to Brion in order to save Tara. The whole thing is a mess and it's hard to say who was right. But the Markov siblings have a classic hero-villain switch, similar to Jon and Jason Canmore.

Poor Halo, though. Brion really thought she was going to come along with him. There was a great shot where her pensive face faded to him making the same face. She had to learn a hard lesson about how someone you trust can let you down.

Luthor tries a Xanatos tag about how great things worked out before being unmasked as an international criminal. He gets off a little shot about "fake news" and "strengthening libel laws," hmm, wonder if that was some sort of social commentary? So lost his perch but still claims things worked out well for him. I disagree, I think he's just trying to save face. Though controlling Markovia was a big win, I doubt it outweighs being the Secretary General of the UN.

We got some nice speeches in the end. Superboy tells the world about his origins and gets back together with M'gann, but Jefferson gets the last word. He rightly calls out all the different subgroups for manipulating one another and takes control of the Justice League while insisting that they will be transparent from now on. Meanwhile, our villains prepare for the next stage of their plans. There's a dark gag about Darkseid and Savage working out their differences while DeSaad tortures Granny. I find it hard to see Darkseid being that forgiving, but I guess it's not worth his effort to seek revenge. As for The Light, they still have to consolidate their power on Earth while being ready in case Darkseid ever gets the Anti-Life Equation again. This ends on a very satisfying note; of course there are loose ends, but this chapter of the characters' lives has closed. I'll share some thoughts on the season as a whole sometime later.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Antiyonder> Thanks a lot for the comic! I'll imagine it with that soundtrack, too.

Jurgan> Yes, that was what Forager decided.


Young Justice 3x25: Overwhelmed

I generally wasn't a big fan of Artemis and Will Harper's storyline, but I liked the way it was handled here. Giving a grief-stricken character the opportunity to retreat into fantasy is an old story in sci-fi, practically a cliche. What surprised me was that it was all an illusion- there was no true journey to limbo. Zatanna manipulated Artemis "for her own good," something that has been a recurring theme through this season. Anyway, Artemis says that a relationship with Will feels uncomfortable, and he agrees, though it's hinted that he's only saying that for her sake.

Brion is out on the publicity circuit drumming up good press for the Outsiders. The episode is a nice cap to the running joke of everyone tell him to "be patient." Forager also has a nice capper, deciding to stay on Earth but not hide his identity any longer. At least, I think that was his decision. I like Dubbilex and the secretive community of the genomorphs. More deception, but this is with the cooperation of those in the community. It's a nice coincidental parallel to the "gargoyles revealed to the world" story we've been discussing. And Metron comes back, but not in a very interesting way. He was basically just foreshadowing.

Not much action in this one. There's a tease for the finale in which the Outsiders will return to Markovia to settle things once and for all.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Oh and if Raine ever used their ability on Eda's drink, I bet she'd teasingly ask them to actually spit in it once in a while.XD

Now that I think about it, even when the Crown of Thorns isn't fully depicted, it has been emulated in other media without too much fuss.

In Bone the last arc involves the search for the Crown of Horns (not to big a leap) and Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series also features a macguffin in the form of the Crown of Swords. It's depicted as more of a laurel but the name still brings to mind the one worn by Jesus.

Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Love your thoughts, Ed, keep them coming.

So many things that I'm curious and excited about in upcoming issues!

"Well, I'm back..." -Samwise Gamgee, Lord of the Rings

What’s up, Aspie Posse?! Yo, does anyone know what happened to those dickriders from the Whelmed podcast? Are their butt hole still sore from riding The Wise Man’s cock? Wtf are those retards doing to with their Patreons’ hard earned money?? It’s almost been one year since their last circle jerk session lmao

Another recent, but still slightly old Owl House strip from MoringMark:


I especially imagine the sequence with the tune of The Marriage of Figaro.


I agree that including the Crown would be thorny territory (sorry, couldn't resist). The Crown is part of pretty much every depiction of the crucified Jesus, the central image of Christianity. Having been raised in a Catholic family, I know several of my relatives would find using it as a talisman in a comic book sacrilegious.

I was pleasantly surprised how much biblical material Greg was allowed to use in the Stone of Destiny arc, since Disney tends to steer clear of religion altogether. But anything relating to Christ is a whole other level of potential for controversy.


Yes, the Grail would be less of a problem, since (as Greg Weisman once pointed out), its links to the Arthurian legend outweigh the links to Jesus. (The earliest account of the Grail makes it simply a mysterious wonder-working object; its being the cup from the Last Supper came along later.) In fact, during the Middle Ages, nobody ever treated the Grail as if it was an actual relic out there; the Lance of Longinus received that treatment (somebody even claimed to have discovered it during the First Crusade), but the Grail never did. The Crown of Thorns is far more explicitly linked to Christianity, and thus would be more of a challenge.

I have to say one thing about those "trio masks"; while, as Goliath pointed out, they won't fool anyone into thinking that their wearers are gargoyles (the suits make it clear enough that they're humans wearing masks), they've truly captured the trio's likenesses. Add onto it that the guy in charge (presumably Dino) is wearing the Brooklyn mask, with Brooklyn being the leader of the trio, and it's clear that they've been doing their homework on those three. (Though it's clearly a "pre-Timedancer" depiction of Brooklyn. Appropriately, the Fleecs cover for this issue also used the pre-Timedancer Brooklyn.)

Todd Jensen

I can say with certainty that the Crown of Thorns could possibly attract more controversy than say, the Holy Grail or the Lance of Longinus for the simple reason that the Crown of Thorns may not be the biggest part of the Biblical canon, but it is an official part of canon unlike the other two which are treated as apocryphal.

In terms of religious objects and how they're treated in fiction, it's a bit of a toss up on how they'll be received. Sometimes they're just harmless Macguffins, sometimes it attracts the wrong kind of attention. But that's usually dependent on the context of the media itself.

Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Demona’s objects… My first thought was the spear. (1) We’ve already seen the Grail and it’s an object that could play into ‘Pendragon’ and the emerging Illuminati storyline. (2) I don’t think the radio plays were necessarily pulling from deep into future plans and it’s likely the research around the objects would have been relatively fresh in Greg’s mind in 2009 from forward-planning for the SLG books. The Hand of Valmont hadn’t occurred to me - this does seem likely as it also helps move forward the Valmont/Duval arc but it doesn’t feel like something would be part of a set... but then again, maybe it would if the hand were a substitute for something else as part of Duval/Peredur's strange deal. Is the Hand somehow linked to the Grail - a way to use it without touching it? In this case, the Spear, the Crown and the Hand could well go together.

One feature of the spear and crown that’s interesting is Demona compelling humans to act as she wishes. This might play interestingly into the “Here in Manhattan” theme of showing the texture of the city - what are humans like under Demona’s control?!

(This reminds me of a rather blue creativity demon I had - while possessing magical object, Demona orders Elisa to “die!” safe in the knowledge that once she says the command, Elisa cannot do anything but make it come true. She glides off, screaming with triumph, content that she’s finally killed the detective. Elisa meanwhile logics out that “die” is also an old-fashioned way of saying to climax so she and Goliath have an absolutely terrific night in thanks to Demona.)

Matt: The Atlantean crystal makes sense in that our only glimpse of present-day Demona was retrieving it in “Invitation Only”. If you think of “Clan-Building” and “Here in Manhattan” as part of the same storyline as intended, maybe that was early foreshadowing of Demona’s plans (and it’s more dramatic perhaps if she already has one or two of the three). But on balance, I’m inclined to think it could simply be foreshadowing of Greg’s retelling of “The Lost” or a story incredibly distant, in ‘2198’ or ‘Timedancer’.

Todd: Interesting point but I’m not sure the Crown is vastly more likely than, say, the Grail to attract controversy. Both are objects derived from Christian traditions but I doubt their specific provenance in the comic is likely to be dwelt upon more than “the story is told, though who can say if it be true.”

The Illuminati discussion from the weekend… from the society’s point of view, the Manhattan clan is clearly of interest but probably has to be a relative historical footnote to them. They must have been aware of gargoyle clans before (Peredur certainly since by all accounts there were gargoyles at Camelot) and despite their apparent interest in “Revelations” in capturing a gargoyle, one wonders if that wish is quite what it seemed. Certainly, the primary goal seemed to be to acquire Matt’s co-operation and perhaps to rid the society of Mace. So while it’s significant that gargoyles have been discovered, it can’t be the only time in the last 1500 years that humans have found out about gargoyles and freaked out -- for one thing, the caution of the London clan not to outgrow Knight’s Spur probably has some traumatic history behind it more recent than the purges of gargoyles that Bodhe discusses in 1057. Yes, they see the clan as important and the surfeit of new members from the cast attests to thats, but for Peredur who is watching empires rise and fall, wars across the Earth, mini ice ages and global warming, the fate of the Manhattan clan in general must be second-page news - especially after learning about Arthur’s return.

Alex: Actually, I like removing Goliath for a rather different reason. The original show was so Goliath centric with only three or four (depending on how you count his appearance in “Turf”) episodes where he didn’t feature but the SLG run really seemed to move away from this. He’s still a big part of Volume 1 of “Clan-Building” but by Volume 2, he’s barely in it, returning mainly for the ending monologue. Of course, he couldn’t appear in Brooklyn’s time dance but I thought it striking that he didn’t visit London. Now, narratively, it’s clear he didn’t need to visit London but I wonder whether if this were an animated episode in the 90s, he would have been in the mix - while it made perfect sense to give Hudson and especially Lexington something just for them, Goliath is the lead character after all and usually in the original series, character focused episodes would involve a character partnered with Goliath. I remember feeling that perhaps the comics wouldn’t need to rely on Goliath so much having established such a deep bench of characters and, while I love Volume 2 (indeed, it’s probably my favourite of the four comic arcs so far unless #5 and #6 do something really stratospheric), I thought it was a little sad if this central pillar of the show wouldn’t be quite as load-bearing going forward. But if “Here in Manhattan” does keep Goliath in a parallel plot from now until the end, I think it does something very clever in that the story actually keeps Goliath as the central pillar but makes the plot bend around his absence. His viewpoint, his character is still driving things forward and is still the prism through which the rest of the show is seen, but having him sidelined allows other voices to be prominent for a while even as they reinforce Goliath’s centrality to the story by demonstrating the vacuum he leaves. Really smart.

Antiyonder: I personally hope that 2198 is kept away from the comics for a good while. I don’t think there’s a huge chance of Gargoyles returning as an animation but there’s definitely a non-zero possibility it happens and if so, by far the best option IMO would be ‘2198’. Of course, as time goes by, the option becomes more remote and then I’d love to see it but right now I’m far more interested in the other spin-offs.

B: I’m hoping for ‘Pendragon’ too although I recall Greg said he had a ‘Dark Ages’ story he was burning to tell. Of course, that was a long time ago. From a commercial perspective, I wonder if ‘Dark Ages’ would be more attractive to Dynamite anyway as it builds off the regular cast. From the point of view of a new reader, it would be hard to see ‘Pendragon’ even as a spin-off as opposed to another story in a shared universe since its protagonists haven’t yet been in the Dynamite books to “spin” anywhere.

Matthew: It’s an interesting one about Chavez. I think there’s a risk that the 23rd precinct becomes either gargoyle allies (Elisa and Matt) or people liable to become allies (Morgan). Chavez is the one person who should be able to approach things from a different viewpoint. One thing I think she might reflect is that Elisa and Matt have behaved very unprofessionally. Matt is doubly compromised as an Illuminatus and an undeclared friend of the gargoyles - two huge conflicts of interest for the head of the Gargoyles Task Force (set aside the ethics - if Bluestone's history with the gargoyles ever gets out, Chavez is going to be under huge criticism for ever appointing him). Meanwhile Elisa has kept the gargoyles a secret even when Goliath was happy for her to be less discrete - and she’s admitted there are personal reasons there. There must be a number of reports she’s put her name to that are falsified or deliberately incomplete. There’s nothing about Chavez to me that says she’s stupid or liable to be mean-minded towards the gargoyles but now, come what may, any understanding she builds of them is likely to come at the cost of her relationship towards two of her best officers. Plus, there are reasons why vigilanteism is considered a bad idea and in many respects we see this time and again with the clan. There’s collateral damage (Coldfire’s accidental arson in “A Little Crazy”, any number of buildings smashed up in the series during battles), people getting hurt by accident (Elisa in “Deadly Force”) and it encourages a culture of lawless reprisals (“Vendettas”). Maria is a highly professional career policewoman and while I imagine she’d find the gargoyles personable, even charming, if she ever got to know them, I think she would have big reservations about them in all other respects.

Jurgan: Why would Dino assume the gargoyles would intervene? I assumed the arrival of the gargoyles was just coincidence (and the three kidnappers don’t sound like they saw it as a plan - “the girl’s screams must have brung ‘em”). Yes, they had masks, but my guess is that these masks would have been whatever generic monster masks were being sold if it weren’t for the city going gargoyle-crazy. For that matter, does Dino know anything about gargoyles except for Glasses’ (rather surprising) assertions? He obviously has seen the news and is aware that Tony’s had dealings with them but since he doesn’t exactly regard Tony very highly…


The crystal is possible; I thought that Demona would be more likely to stash it away somewhere to regenerate the Praying Gargoyle (I've had a creativity demon for the past few years of her taking it back to Notre Dame to regenerate there, and then flying into a rage when fire strikes the cathedral in 2019 about the upset to her plans), but she might indeed have other designs for it.

At least we'll learn what they are in a few months.

Todd Jensen

I dunno, Todd. I can see it working out to use the Crown. Though I doubt Greg would use both the Crown and the Spear.

Any other thoughts about these Keys of Power? Demona does have the crystal in the Praying Gargoyle. Could that be one of them?

"Well, I'm back..." -Samwise Gamgee, Lord of the Rings

Good stuff. Been reading a lot of the discussion

I doubt they'll use the Crown of Thorns in the comic; they'd want to avoid religious controversy.
Todd Jensen

So regarding an upcoming Gargoyles issue and possibly how another element of the radio play continuity will resurface: [SPOILER] Think the new keys of power Demoan seeks will be the Spear of Rebirth, the Crown of Thorns and Hand of Valmont? The first two being from Religious Studies 101: A Handful of Thorns and the Hand being from Recruits. [/SPOILER]

I remember that in Season Two of "Young Justice", many of the leading Justice League figures like Superman and Batman were away on trial for most of the season, so Greg's got some experience there. (Granted, they were supporting characters, not the leads.)
Todd Jensen

If it's easier for people, here's a youtube version for the podcast I did. (Again, click my name)

Seemingly the trial story for Goliath is going to be *long* based on the previews. Which makes a lot of sense. I'm sure if he'd done it in animation Greg would have probably pulled an "Upgrade" and maybe had a time skip in the middle of a two parter or something. Or maybe he would have gotten away with having the lead be imprisoned for an extended period of time. It's not that totally dissimilar to the World Tour or what the show Reboot did with their main character, Bob for an entire season. (Beast Wars was only allowed to do it for two episodes)

Which honestly I love. I love when a show is gutsy enough to take out the main character for a while and to see what the show looks like without them. It's always super cool.

Alex (Aldrius)

B - Thanks on the spelling. And I think you're right about Dino's reason for kidnapping Rosaria and Peter; it's most likely a way to make their "organized crimelord" relatives toe the line, probably with the threat of mailing them toes, followed by other body parts once the toes run out, if they won't co-operate.

And, yes, I'd like to see "Pendragon" too, especially with the hints that we'd have gotten glimpses in it of what role gargoyles played in Arthurian Britain. I've said this before, but I'm also curious about how the Illuminati leadership reconcile being guardians of the Holy Grail with the Illuminati's darker activities (such as handling the Quarrymen), which I can't imagine the Grail approving of (at least, not if it's anything like its depiction in Malory).

Todd Jensen

The possibility of the trial of Goliath has me excited for a distinct reason, that it can bring Goliath and the gargoyles' voice to the public at large. I can only imagine the surprise from the humans when they find out that this "monster" can not only speak and reason, but has a good grasp on their laws and justice system.

And that can create an interesting bit of conflict in between the people who want to double down and continue to treat them as animals (like Margot) and those who realize that they're dealing with an unprecedented turn of events (like Captain Chavez I imagine).

Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

And/or he wants to provoke their families into a war, like "Brooklyn" implied.

I'm assuming Dino legitimately does want them as leverage against their families and it's a two birds one stone thing.

"Excited for you to reach the season finale. Do you plan to review Season 4 (Phantoms) next?"

Yes, but probably not right away. Might take a break and watch something else for a while.

"Attacking humans in the park? If the police still haven't figured out those were kidnappers."

AFAICT that was Dino's whole plan- stage a crime in the park so the gargoyles will intervene and then be arrested for assaulting humans. Still not sure how the West Side Story couple factor into things.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Craig> I would hope that if Goliath is arraigned and the topic of bail is addressed, the judge will determine Goliath a flight risk, leading Goliath to growl, "I cannot fly. I can merely glide on currents of wind."

Yes, that would be brilliant.

But if that's the case, I can't imagine any other crime Goliath could be tried for. If it were purely a "sentience trial," whatever form that may take, it's difficult to even see why the D.A.'s office and Margot would be involved, since there is no crime at issue.

Attacking humans in the park? If the police still haven't figured out those were kidnappers.

Antiyonder> Wasn't the Vizier's son voiced by Rob Paulsen? [SPOILER] Your comment about sweet potatos reminded me of how Tulip in Infinity Train eats raw onions. [/SPOILER]

Matthew, Todd Jensen, Phoenician> The closing of The Owl House's finale was lovely. [SPOILER] So glad the portal stayed open. Todd's spelling was close, it's "quinceañera". There's an -er sound near the end. [/SPOILER]

Makes me really curious about the Pendragon spinoff, which we now might actually see if the parent line sells well.

Jurgan> I think the idea was that Granny was split in to two vessels, and defeating the one on Earth stunned the main one long enough for Cyborg to free Halo.

Close. They destroyed the machine that had been keeping the Grannies separate, making them re-integrate painfully.

Excited for you to reach the season finale. Do you plan to review Season 4 (Phantoms) next?


One other touch I liked about the "Owl House" finale, and forgot to mention, was [SPOILER] Flapjack's memorial stone, with Hunter's "thank you" to him engraved upon it. [/SPOILER]

And, yes, King Arthur's premature return is likely to be one of the Illuminati's biggest challenges, particularly if Arthur returning from Avalon in 2198 was a cornerstone of the Society's overall goals.

One of the little revelations when Greg Weisman was doing the "On This Day in the Gargoyles Universe" was that the Illuminati had the Quarrymen already set up before the events in "Hunter's Moon" and had even approached the Canmores about leading them, only for Jason to turn them down. Not only did it explain how the Quarrymen got started up so quickly in "The Journey", but I liked the touch of Jason rejecting them, presumably with a tone of family pride, of "This is our business. We don't need your help to take those monsters down."

Todd Jensen

[SPOILER] One thing I actually liked about The Owl House's finale was that it kept its disabilities tropes and analogies for its main characters and didn't magic them away. Eda's arm isn't magically regrown, Lilith and her magic isn't coming back to where it once was and Lilith probably had have years of training to work with her Raven Beast form before she could transition to Harpy Lilith.

Glad that Eda embraced the Pirate Eda look, cuz she ROCKS it. [/SPOILER]

Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Yeah, I especially like the moment of reading that particular bit and that plans for Arthur have to do with the far future. Wonder if the date was slightly different when the spinoff was 2158.

Heck, I'm half expecting some stories in that year either as a flashback or in Timedancer. Kind of those "What could have been" type stories.

But yeah, anyone ever look at the MoringMark fan comics? Decent stuff. A couple for the moment:

1. https://moringmark.tumblr.com/post/711957103936471040

Basically prior to WaD airing it's a strip giving some title drops. Fun stuff, but [SPOILER] Last one with Luz's expression? Watching and Simping more like it [/SPOILER].

2. https://moringmark.tumblr.com/post/708333225001484288

Stringbean having long since known who her second mom is before hatching.

Also a headcanon I had long before, [SPOILER] Any of their kids not interested in trying a sweet potato. Possibly lemon drops [/SPOILER]


Plus, even the best-laid millennia-plus plans can be spoiled with the right monkey-wrench. All indications from the Stone of Destiny arc suggest that the Illuminati were not planning for Arthur's return from Avalon so soon. I look forward to seeing how the upper echelons are able to adapt for multiple contingencies.

The Owl House: [SPOILER] Of course more episodes would have been wonderful, but I have to give it up for Dana Terrace and the rest of the cast and crew -- I became emotional in these last moments and I can't help but love how they utterly stuck the landing with such an impactful ending. Of the various non-Weisman Disney series we've enjoyed discussing here at S8 -- Gravity Falls, 2017's DuckTales, and Amphibia -- this finale really stood out. [/SPOILER]

Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."