Well, Goliath started off as a Scottish resident (recognized or not) for 769 years from his hatching in 938 before the Acts of Union in 1707. Whether he and his kind were recognized as 'nationals' in the legal sense depended on the monarch at the time, I guess. Demona and her clan certainly enjoyed recognition during Macbeth's seventeen year reign. You would at least hope so when your clan leader is also the King's primary advisor.

For the next 287 years Goliath was effectively an undocumented resident of the United Kingdom (certainly no one was accounting statues in any national census). And then there's his transport to the United States by 1994. So three years in the States while also avoiding international customs from fifteen-odd countries thanks to Avalon's magics d:

As for the UK Foreign Secretary and US Secretary of State, it is fun to consider those were Robin Cook and Madeleine Albright, respectively for May 1997. We know Greg Weisman likes to keep things as grounded as possible, I don't really anticipate these two to ever be depicted in the comic.

And, whether or not things go well for Goliath with this city civil proceeding, I can't imagine just the State Department getting involved. The various agencies of the US national security apparatus will certainly want their hands in this cookie jar when all is said and done. I remain particularly curious about just which agency the Redemption Squad's Director works for.
Phoenician
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2023 10:53:20 pm EDT from 68.2.64.232

Alex>I take it you mean the series Trickster.
B
B
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2023 10:06:34 pm EDT from 74.74.246.146

Alex: "Secretary of State for the United States of America." A city doesn't have its own foreign policy (officially, though some mayors might claim they effectively do).

"I think maybe the Manhattan Clan ends up feeling a bit tacked on and it might have worked better/been more focused as just a King Arthur/Griff vehicle, but the higher ups may not have liked that. It's not a bad episode either way."

I think the "hatchling riddle" hook doesn't work for me. Arthur goes looking for Excalibur, and the first person he runs into knows a childhood story that happens to be right? I know, I know, Avalon sent him there to meet Griff, but it still feels too easy. That, and Arthur says "use the lightning weapon," which is all that's necessary for the Lady of the Lake to be convinced he's a great leader. Macbeth is my favorite character, though, and I like how they make him an antagonist but not a villain in this one.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2023 9:52:01 pm EDT from 24.11.173.82

It's tempting to imagine the human authorities deciding not to view Goliath and the other gargoyles as sentient beings, simply because they don't want to have to deal with the situation of what to do about non-human sentients - all the hassle of which human laws apply to them and which don't, etc.

Speaking of Avalon, I've wondered whether the Avalon clan (including Princess Katharine and Tom) might attend Angela and Broadway's commitment ceremony, but I think that would make the stage (especially that close to the end of "Here in Manhattan") too crowded.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2023 9:47:21 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

On some level I suspect maybe Xanatos is gonna end up offering some guarantees to the DA's office and the government. Just because that'll keep Goliath under his thumb more and Goliath'll kinda owe him. And that sounds dramatically interesting.

I think it'd be kinda funny seeing the foreign minister of the UK and the... who would it be... I dunno American politics well enough. New York secretary of state? Discussing deporting him.

"The gargoyle was a UK resident for over 1050 years."

More Mayan Clan would be neat. There's a precedent for more world tour type stories with Rock of Ages.

Broadway and Angela going to Avalon would be cool. But honestly? Why not the whole Manhattan Clan. It'd be really heartwarming to see Hudson with all of his grandkids.

Or he'll, Coldstone and Coldfire.
Alex
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2023 7:16:06 pm EDT from 207.164.126.50

Given the recent talk of Avalon, figured I’d share this gem: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jTtIpxpCNYs

I wonder, has Keith David ever performed that one as part of his Nat King Cole tribute show?
Craig
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2023 6:01:05 pm EDT from 107.123.49.84

I speculated to Greg B that Hyppolyta and Iago might be mates a while back. It is possible. Or maybe her mate is Brooksbro. He needs some characterization. He's yet to have a single line of dialogue! In any case, if Hyppolyta had a mate (which seems likely), then she likely has a biological offspring on Avalon.

And I also think Lefty must be two generations Demona's senior. So, hatched with Chomp and Chaw, right between Hudson/Verity's generation and Second/Sacrifice's generation.

And if our next arc after Here in Manhattan has more focus on magic and Mab and the Tricksters, then maybe Angela and Broadway will visit Avalon as part of that. I'd also love to see more of the Mayan Clan and it would be cool to see Jaida and Turquesa visit New York, retrieve the Sun Amulet and all that. If they spent even just a couple weeks getting their plants settled on Avalon before leaving, then they might only in 1997 be World Touring. Of course, as far as we know they were no longer on Avalon during Ill Met By Moonlight, so who knows. Anyway, lots of interesting stuff related to Avalon.
Matt
"I have one absolute rule: No gargoyle left behind. Period." - Brooklyn, "Render Unto Caesar"
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2023 5:48:40 pm EDT from 47.233.90.133

Alex > Assuming the court does find that Goliath is entitled to constitutional rights, the state can't just detain him indefinitely with no charges. Since as you say he's an undocumented "immigrant," the typical resolution would be to deport him. But since he doesn't have citizenship anywhere, there's nowhere to send him (I suppose they could try to send him back to Scotland just so he's someone else's problem, but this doesn't seem feasible...I'm sure the Scottish government would oppose it, as there's no legal basis).
Craig
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2023 4:35:45 pm EDT from 24.46.160.16

Been kinda tired, but some random thoughts on discussions over the last few days:

1) Caught up on the Voices podcast. Good stuff, love when Jaime Thomason and Cary Bates are on. I thought it was interesting when Greg B brought up that he wasn't sure whether the story was going to have a happy ending or not, meaning (to me, correct me if I'm wrong Greg) that he wasn't sure if the ruling was going to come down in Goliath's favour or not. Which is something I've *definitely* been thinking about. I'm not even sure, if it does get ruled that Goliath is sentient (and I suppose that the Bill of Rights and constitution apply to him), how Goliath gets out of prison frankly at this point. He's an undocumented resident at best.

2) Re: World Tour. I think the World Tour is really creative, bold, and is extremely important to the overall fabric of the show. On the other hand, I do think it kind of falls in an odd place in the series, and is undermined by it's own ambitions in a way. The hiatus in the middle of it didn't help (I think as a kid I must have seen Mark of the Panther like 8 times, or it felt that way).

I love Golem, Cloud Fathers and Kingdom, I think those two episodes are super solid and I love Halcyon's relationship with Goliath, which is interesting because I don't think I ever saw Outfoxed or Golem as a kid. I used to *adore* Shadows of the Past, and I still really love it but I've soured on it a bit (mostly just because I think the Captain gets off easy and I wish the conclusion dealt more with Captain vs. Goliath stuff, actual discussion of what happened I think it ends up focusing too much on Hakon).

Controversial opinion, but Sanctuary isn't my absolute favourite. I think in a sea of guest star of the week type episodes, having an episode with three huge villains like Macbeth, Demona and Thailog is extremely impactful. But... the overarching Angela/Goliath conflict has never super worked for me. Angela's just way too good for Goliath's fears to feel reasonable, and she's practically a grown woman at this point, so parental drama like this just seems... a bit late. Especially when she has 3 amazing parents who obviously love her. And there's also a lack of specificity here. What is she really looking for from Demona? Reckoning illucidates this a lot, to be fair.

Plus then Demona just seems a bit dim during the climax. It also feels a bit like there needed to be a way to bridge what was happening to her and Macbeth in Avalon to getting them back to some semblance of status quo. But in Avalon they just stick Demona on a skiff, hoping for the best (which literally just enables her plot with Thailog here), it's a bit jumpy.

Having said that, I love the Thailog/Demona pairing (he's like Goliath, but he isn't going to judge her), I love the Paris locale and the MacBeth/Demona wedding plans are a special kind of screwed up. It sets up a lot of stuff in the Reckoning (which I think is an awesome episode), and the story doesn't feel overwhelming when it easily could have.

There's a lot of episodes where I think the ideas are awesome. The Mayan Clan in general? Anansi? The Ishimura Clan? All really cool conceptually, and I like the scenes that explore them. I used to be disappointed because I have really high expectations for the show, but I think these all work fine as kind of fluffy, conceptual stories. And I mean fluffy in a good way: light, pleasant, good. It still bugs me that Goliath logics his way out of the Angela problem he's having rather than them talking earnestly with one another, but I like his scenes with Diane a lot, so whatever.

Eye of the Storm is kind of in the same vein, and it's just a cool concept: What if Goliath put on the Eye of Odin? The plot's pretty epic, and I like exploring Goliath's weaknesses. I think it makes him feel like a more fleshed out multi-faceted character.

New Olympians and Sentinel to my mind are extremely dependent on if you think the New Olympians and the Alien stuff is cool. I think they're... fine. So I think the episodes are fine. Taurus is neat. Love me some Roddy MacDowal. Avery Brooks has a super cool voice. The amnesia plotline is kind of irritating but I think it's a unique take on it at least. They're fine.

Heritage and Monsters are both pretty weak. I don't think they're *bad*, but it's odd to introduce the concept of international gargoyles with a fake clan. Also the whole episode with the barren island is just kind of depressing and there's nothing really going on for our leads to spice it up. Raven's just a jerk. Incidentally, I think I've mentioned before but there's a CBC series about the Raven legend. It's awesome. It's free on CBC Gem but I'm not sure where it's available outside of Canada. Like I cannot emphasize enough how *amazing* it is.

Monsters is okay. Making every single Angela story (and most of her story beats even) about her parentage is kind of lousy frankly. I think a bit too much time winds up being spent on it and it's never really the A plot. The Loch Ness stuff is fine. Sevarius is always a good time. I like the line "He has more lines than an alley cat". Just this storied, mad scientist man, who dresses up in costumes and pretends to have a German accent and a limp for no reason. What more could you honestly ask for.

I completely forgot about Pendragon (which I think is kind of telling on myself -- though it's another one I never saw as a kid so I think that's actually more why I forget about it). It's a cool episode. Really dependent on if you think this version of King Arthur is cool. I think he's fine. Having portals that teleport people around the world, and dragons and such makes it feel *very* high fantasy, and I think Gargoyles is a bit too grounded as a show to pull it off, but Griff is charming, the legendary feel of the story as an epic quest is cool. I think maybe the Manhattan Clan ends up feeling a bit tacked on and it might have worked better/been more focused as just a King Arthur/Griff vehicle, but the higher ups may not have liked that. It's not a bad episode either way.

I think largely the whole thing is a collection of cool stories that just end up feeling a bit insubstantial. In a show that is constantly trying to be substantial. So that makes them feel a bit underwhelming maybe. I can't imagine the show without the world tour, though, and I think in the end it had a positive impact on the series.

I want to comment on some of the new comic stuff, but I don't have the time right now, so we'll save that for next time.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2023 3:01:26 pm EDT from 70.27.163.9

Also National Prosecco Day and National Filet Mignon Day!
B
B
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2023 2:27:39 pm EDT from 74.74.246.146

One other thing I forgot to mention this morning. Today, August 13, is International Left-Handers Day, which makes it appropriate that we discussed Lefty around this time.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2023 1:51:04 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

Antiyonder, Ed> I don't see even a redeemed Demona's general feelings about her human form, i.e. that it's just a useful disguise and tool, changing.
B
B
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2023 10:52:29 am EDT from 74.74.246.146

Todd Jensen> No, you distinguished the two plotlines with an "instead".
B
B
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2023 10:45:03 am EDT from 74.74.246.146

ED - Actually, I never imagined Mab as involved in the "Tricksters" story. I'll have to reread that post and see if I might have phrased it carelessly in such a way as to give the wrong impression.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2023 8:40:44 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

Todd: Mab is one of the storylines Greg's teased that I'm most looking forward to but I'd be very surprised if it was tied into the Trickster storyline given that it was originally conceived with four tricksters - how do you fit Mab in on top?

Antiyonder: Or she could view it as an apt punishment to take the form of her victims.

Matthew: I like the idea that at least one of the keys is something we know quite well and the Stone of Destiny fits. While the SLG #7-9 story needed to be told when it was due to the timeline, it's also unlike Greg to introduce a character and then disregard them.

Matt: I don't know about *by* the end... a few months could equally mean that the Keys will be in #13. My hunch is that it will depend on whether the revelation of the keys is a twist in itself and, if it is, it will almost certainly be foreshadowed in "Here in Manhattan" [SPOILER] (Even the appearance of the spearhead in "The Draw" feels unlikely to really be a huge shock revelation to be worth ending #12 with). [/SPOILER]. If it turned out that, for a wild example, Michael Maza was a Key to Power that feels like it would be a #12 revelation. If one is the Grail, that feels more like a #13 revelation.

Kevin: Hyppolyta as Iago's mate would be interesting. Not sure I see it right now, except that they're both antagonistic to Goliath, but it's early days and we know very little about pre-994 Iago.

Phoenician/Craig: [SPOILER] (On Gawain) Years ago (over a decade probably) I had a theory that Duval could have some link to Gawain. The Scottish background, the green dress, the "people I love most" comment (Gawain would be his father). I think there's a Roger Lancelyn Green scene where Gawain appears to Arthur post-death and of course Greg does love the bastard archetype and specifically with Gawain. Of course, Greg's list of survivors didn't include Gawain and Greg indicated he hadn't changed his plans so I don't think he is literally Gawain. But... I think a more subtle link can't be ruled out.

Incidentally, a few Greg quotes from the archives:


"I may be reading between the lines, more than a little, but I often see archetypes floating through various pantheons. Theseus is the perfect bastard in Greek Mythology. But when you get to Arthurian times, despite the surface similarities, Arthur just doesn't totally fit the bill for me. And though there are a TON of other potential candidates, including (depending on your interpretation) Merlin, Percival, Mordred, Galahad, etc., I still feel like this time out "THE BASTARD " decided that he wanted a shot at having a family. He bypassed the obvious choices and incarnated as Gawain. And nothing really changed for him." - 21 Dec 2000

I like the question too. In my mind, Percival was the illegitimate son of Gawaine. (You need to reread your Lancelyn Green very carefully.) This interests me because, as I've mentioned before, I have this sense that the true Bastard archetype in Arthurian lore has not been filled by a true Bastard , but by Gawaine himself. The archetype trying to take a break from himself, and largely failing. - 1 Apr 2000

"Gawaine is a particular favorite of mine. As I've mentioned, I have an affinity for BASTARDS. (I think I must have been one in a former life. No cracks please.) Arthurian legend is full of bastard s, but most don't fit the THESEAN profile. (Sure Arthur and Theseus have a lot of superficial traits in common, but their personalities are night and day.) Gawaine does. I can't help wondering whether the archetypal bastard thought he was taking a vacation by reincarnating as a legitimate first born son. It made him particularly obssessed with family honor (compensating, you know) and otherwise didn't change his personality at all.
Green, I'm sure had an influence on me. And don't forget, Gawaine tried to repent his quest for vengeance against Lancelot. I like the guy.
As for Mordred, I have no problem with the notion of trying to humanize him. He was a human being after all. But doing it at the expense of other figures? It felt like cheating." - 17 Mar 2000


So how do we square the circle?

I can think of a few possibilities.

For example, Duval has some kind of weird green futuristic tech on his face. What if he's created from Space Spawn technology and, under Peredur's influence, has taken the form of a simulacrum of his father, Gawain. In this sense, Gawain would no longer be alive but could exist. Still, although his cyber implants are certainly intriguing, my hunch is that there will be an explanation more tightly linked to the Grail.

How about this:

For Peredur to live eternally, someone must die. Every generation, Gawain is reincarnated in a new form and, from nothing, has to rise to power and ultimately to the top of the Illuminati Society - the ultimate bastard! But, once there, he sacrifices his life for his son, dying as a result of his many sins, being reborn and continuing the cycle over again. A literal version of Greg's thoughts on the bastard archetype being reborn.

But Duval (Valmont?) doesn't want to die - why should he follow in the footsteps of his predecessor (even if his predecessor was a variant of himself)? He finds other ways to continue to exist (e.g. the cyber implants, perhaps sacrificing his hand rather than his whole self this time - hence "the Hand of Valmont"). And so, as one of the two most senior Illuminati members outside Carbonek, he remoulds the Illuminati in his own image and, a millennium later, we see where that leads.

As far as what we (think we) know from Greg's revelations go: none of the reincarnations are Gawain - they are different people with different memories and life experiences, so Greg's list still applies - but nevertheless they are a form of Gawain's character. (This "bend the rule without breaking it" approach also has the advantage that it makes spoilers both legitimate and also red herrings which I could see Greg doing).

Anyway, it's a long shot but they're all long shots. I do expect the eventual 'solution' to the Duval conundrum to have quite a few twists though. And I would be surprised if Greg doesn't do some big things with Gawain and since 'Pendragon' is set in the present-day and Gawain isn't apparently alive, that means... another approach.

I will say that I'll be very surprised if Duval is the Green Knight. I don't think his character is very reminiscent at all of Bertilak as depicted in "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight" who, although it's been years since I've read it, I recall being an almost festive figure. [/SPOILER]
Ed
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2023 8:22:38 am EDT from 86.160.27.155

Regarding Demona's biological siblings I think she is the third from her parents, since I think it likely that Lefty is from the 898 generation, giving that he called her child which makes since he is has more of a fatherly relationship then brotherly like Goliath has with the trio without being an exact rookery father/brother respectively.

Speaking of generations just for fun I was thinking about whether or not the Trio or Bronx has relatives on Avalon, and with Bronx he almost certainly has a sibling giving that Garg Beasts can lay four and Chomp's Chaw's and last egg would be with the 998 one.

With Brooklyn and Broadway they would not have siblings but Brooklyn almost certainly has a nephew/niece since Brooksbro was of Goliath's and Demona's generation, and Broadway might as well if Hyppolyta laid an egg. For some reason I thought Iago/Coldsteel might be her mate, he does seem slimy enough to try and two time her as well as alleviate loneliness but that is just speculation.
Kevin - [kevin dot nuckols at yahoo dot com]
Kevin Nuckols
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2023 4:19:23 am EDT from 96.235.25.160

Well, the point still stands.

Anyway, Lefty is Demona's brother, huh? Interesting, still makes me wonder what her biological parents look like and whether she has other biological siblings and who they take after.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2023 3:51:49 am EDT from 64.85.245.77

EDIT: Sorry, I misspoke. Lefty is Demona's biological brother, from a separate rookery generation.
Craig
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2023 1:13:16 am EDT from 24.46.160.119

Matthew > Just to be totally clear, Greg said elsewhere on his tweets that that 29-cent check was for ACTING on Young Justice. He doesn't even make a CENT in residuals for any of his writing work.

Unrelatedly, he also verified that Lefty is Demona's rookery brother from another generation.
Craig
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2023 1:11:50 am EDT from 24.46.160.119

For starters, I would like to apologize in advance for this soapbox moment. But I feel it's important to get this off my chest.

(Ahem) To the executives of Disney, Warner Brothers/Discovery, Paramount, and all others I might have missed.

PAY YOUR ****ING WRITERS!

https://twitter.com/Greg_Weisman/status/1690480619590180864

That is all.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sun, Aug 13, 2023 12:22:52 am EDT from 64.85.245.77

Found this at YouTube and thought I'd share it with the room:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4E_RmBMH-6A
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Aug 12, 2023 9:30:46 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

Sorry for the double post.

Todd > [SPOILER]
I looked that up as well after the podcast. Furthermore, it seems that the real-world historical Rhydderch killed Culen because Culen had imprisoned and raped Rhydderch's daughter. While I certainly don't think we'll see any rape (especially inter-species), Culen's kidnapping of Demona seems pertinent here, especially the emphasis in both Hudson and Culen's dialogue on Demona being Hudson's daughter (and Culen, as a human, clearly misunderstanding exactly what this means--clearly assuming that Demona has some special meaning to Hudson, and not realizing that any other gargoyle of her generation would be equally precious to him).
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Sat, Aug 12, 2023 7:54:33 pm EDT from 24.46.161.149

Phoenician / Ed > [SPOILER]
What was Ed's Gawain theory, vis a vis Duval? I'd considered that Duval could be the Green Knight, as all his (potential) incarnations that we've seen so far wear green, and the Green Knight has a link to Gawain. But based on Greg's list of Arthurian survivors, Gawain is no longer around in the 1990s, so Duval is presumably not Gawain himself, correct? Or is there some reason for suspecting that he is?
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Sat, Aug 12, 2023 7:48:22 pm EDT from 24.46.161.149

After hearing Greg Weisman's mention in the "Upgrade" podcast about Culen's historical fate, I looked him up in my copy of "Oxford the Kings and Queens of Britain", and learned that [SPOILER] in actual history, he was slain by someone named "Riderch", which is a variant of "Rhydderch", the name which Culen used as a term for "leader", or at least for "gargoyle leader", and applied to Hudson in #2. This Riderch was described as a human, but it might be another case of "All things are true; few things are accurate". [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Aug 12, 2023 7:45:08 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

Matthew> [SPOILER] Well, whether or not the Crown of Thorns is on or off the table, still considering the Hand of Valmont. [/SPOILER]
Antiyonder
posted @ Sat, Aug 12, 2023 7:00:11 pm EDT from 71.84.183.196

Matthew: [SPOILER] Unless Demona has a means of getting to Castle Carbonek (besides spying on them), I think the Stone of Destiny and Grail are out of play for now. Further, the Gate is more precisely a case of mixed magics (with its mortal incantation, but with Third Race magic and/or something beyond also incorporated into the mysterious mix). I do like the overall theory that what makes the Three Keys so powerful is that the relics do have some balance involved in their dynamic. [/SPOILER]

Ed: [SPOILER] If they are one and the same, it will be curious if Shari predates Duval as a member of the Illuminati (I still like to take your Gawain considerations in this puzzle though). [/SPOILER]

Voices from the Eyrie: [SPOILER] As usual, I loved Thom Adcox visiting the show and look forward his next appearance. Hopefully he gets to show us his note from Ed Asner! [/SPOILER]
Phoenician
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."
posted @ Sat, Aug 12, 2023 6:53:21 pm EDT from 68.2.64.232

Matthew> [SPOILER] I agree that the three new keys will similiarly be one of mortal magic, one of third race magic, and one of "intrinsic" magic. I wonder where exactly the Spear falls. I'm not sure if it is mortal or intrinsic.

Also, the Phoenix may be intrinsic, but the Gate is not. It was "forged" on Avalon. Though I wonder if Avalon is third race magic or intrinsic... [/SPOILER]
Matt
"I have one absolute rule: No gargoyle left behind. Period." - Brooklyn, "Render Unto Caesar"
posted @ Sat, Aug 12, 2023 6:49:03 pm EDT from 47.233.90.133

[SPOILER] I was doing some more thinking on what the new Keys to Power might be, if we are correct and if Greg is planning on doing some adaptation of Religious Studies 101, then I think it's safe to say that the Spear of Destiny might be one of them. The other big candidate would be the Stone of Destiny aka. the Stone of Scone and maybe the Holy Grail? According to the wiki it possesses magic that is neither mortal or Third Race.

The first Keys to Power featured mortal magic (the Grimorum), Third Race magic (the Eye) and magic of unknown origin (the Gate). I figure the new keys will be something similar but I'm not sure how these supposed choices would fit into this qualifications. Anyone have any thoughts or guesses on the matter? [/SPOILER]
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sat, Aug 12, 2023 6:19:37 pm EDT from 64.85.245.77

Well finally did a major comic store catch up. I'll link the picture of my collection updates Thursday.

But yeah finally got some more My Little Pony comics. OK I did, but yeah got all four of the Gargoyles stuff (and Darkwing Duck).

So relating to a bit at the beginning of issue 7 and some over all speculation:

[SPOILER] So when Demona does undergo her redemption (Not until 2198 or after), would she aside from the pain view her human transformation as more of a good thing? Just cause I wonder when she is in a better place will start acknowledging the fact that she is more human than she ever cared to admit. [/SPOILER]
Antiyonder
posted @ Sat, Aug 12, 2023 6:00:41 pm EDT from 71.84.183.196

The way Greg talked about it in the Upgrade podcast makes me think that [SPOILER] the three new keys of power will be revealed by the end of Here in Manhattan. [/SPOILER]
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Narrator, "The Reach"
posted @ Sat, Aug 12, 2023 9:06:24 am EDT from 47.233.90.133

Just listened to the podcast on "Upgrade"; enjoyable as ever (and I was glad to hear Jennifer Anderson back - and that she got to share her thoughts on "Double Jeopardy"). As I might have mentioned before, "Upgrade" seems all the more timely now in light of [SPOILER] Jackal, Hyena, and Wolf's appearance in #8, and all the trouble Brooklyn's running into in his leadership position [/SPOILER].

Like Ed, I'm hoping that the comic will continue past #12; I'd like to see the story about [SPOILER] Demona and the new Three Keys to Power [/SPOILER]. If we get a story involving Avalon, I wonder if it'll involve the return of Queen Mab (which I still find tempting to imagine being called "Legend of the Chaos Goddess"), though it might be the trickster story that "The Goliath Chronicles" turned into "Ransom" instead.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Aug 11, 2023 10:27:06 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

Ed> No problem.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Fri, Aug 11, 2023 8:17:56 pm EDT from 64.85.245.77

[SPOILER] Another member of the French Valois dynasty (besides Henry V's queen) was Charles VII, also known as the Dauphin Charles whom Joan of Arc helped make King of France - and after whom Charlie Dauphin in the "Rain of the Ghosts" books was named.

And, in reading up on the original King Rhydderch, I learned that his son and successor was named Constantine - making it appropriate that Culen is the one using his name as a title of leadership. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Aug 11, 2023 7:49:24 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

[SPOILER]
One of the intriguing/perplexing things about Valois/Valmont/Duval--assuming that these are all the same person (or at the very least, are in some sense related)--is that all three names appear to be of French origin. Yet in the SLG run, Valmont is specifically interested in the strangely short-sighted and specific goal of taking over Scotland. And of course, Duval presumably has some important historical link to Peredur, who is Welsh. It's a very strange mix.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Fri, Aug 11, 2023 5:16:56 pm EDT from 24.46.160.134

Dark Ages #2 thoughts.

[SPOILER] Interesting coincidence - I’ve been reading a book about the Wars of the Roses and one of the chapters focuses heavily on Catherine of Valois, the wife of Henry V, mother to Henry VI, grandmother to Henry VII and therefore the Tudor dynasty. I rather doubt there’s a specific link between the two characters - my hunch is that Greg wanted “Val” names and this was one from history - but equally she does cameo in Shakespeare’s ‘Henry V’ and Greg does love his Shakespeare.

If Valois, Duval and Valmont are all the same person, I have some reservations. Having Duval encounter the clan previously, albeit in a very oblique way, makes the world feel somehow smaller. Isn’t it a coincidence that these random gargoyles are interacting with the head of the Illuminati (even if he wasn’t back then)? Granted, the battles for the Scottish throne are a significant event but in the scheme of a worldwide (or in 971 at least pan-European) society, perhaps not that significant.

This makes me think that perhaps they aren’t the same person - or not quite. What if there are simply lots and lots of Duvals, across Europe and across history, perhaps not even aware of each other. In this case, it’s not surprising that two of the Duvals would be there for key events in 10th century Scotland without the Wyvern clan and their allies being particularly special or significant to the Illuminati. Echoes of Fox’s television ad in “Upgrade”. Speaking of which… [/SPOILER]

VOICES #36

As ever, good fun. I liked Greg W making clear about the logistics of Fox’s television ad (I always thought it was clear but it’s good to see it specified) and it was interesting to hear the rationale behind the upgrade. Greg B drawing the “villain inflation” parallel to the Pack in #8 was a good link I hadn’t really considered. And some very fun anecdotes from Thom about some on-set experiences. I’m really pleased he mentioned having a positive experience with three performers I’ve always liked a lot even if some of the other experiences were more negative.

Interesting that Greg mentioned [SPOILER] how specifically he’d built Culen’s real-life history in. I will be very interested indeed to see how he handles this in #3. [/SPOILER]

Greg also mentioned Demona and the Avalon plots specifically as things not pertinent to the Manhattan-based storyline which kind of reinforces my suspicion that the second arc will feature both heavily. Also Greg mentions his philosophy of laying pipe with the Archmage reference in upgrade and even setting aside the entire issue recently dedicated to Demona’s machinations, there have been references to Avalon and the Children of Oberon (#2 and #3) which feel like guns on the mantlepiece.

I’m going to be really interested to see the podcast on “Protection” in light of how much more developed the gangland plot has been in the Dynamite run.

It’s good to hear some of these episodes are being recorded a long way out. Hopefully in a few years’ time, by the time we get round to “Here in Manhattan”, Greg can be a lot more open about his original season 3 plans (and indeed his original SLG plans). I think we can reasonably guess that “Here in Manhattan” derives from three stories — Maggie’s baby, the pitch that became “And Justice For All” and a Trio/Gang War story. I originally assumed there’d be a fourth but I’m less convinced now (except for the Demona stuff which I don’t see being addressed much before #12 or #13).

Matthew: [SPOILER] Thanks for translating the spell. [/SPOILER]

B: Thanks for the update. Very strange - this is the time period I’d expect them to potentially release a TPB for volume 2. Amazon have updated the art but it still doesn’t show any sign of “part 1”. I don’t think it’s likely they’ll do a 12-issue trade — the blurb still says #1-6 (but then it also says it’s about a gargoyle egg), I always understood that 4-6 issues were the most profitable and the price point isn’t reflective of that - but it would be kind of cool if they did. (Although my big wish would be, if the volumes do well, a hardcover release).

Phoenician: [SPOILER] Love the days count (if only to know I’m not the only person who thinks this way!!). Interesting point also about the gargoyles’ longevity. I have a hunch that the stories take place after issue 6 and wouldn’t be surprised if the final issue will tie into it in some way - showing the scene or at least mentioning the arrival of the players. Obviously, Valois’ presence in the arc makes Shari’s involvement all the more interesting. [/SPOILER]

Craig: Interesting review of the ‘Ducktales’ books. I’ve been collecting the Don Rosa and I have a number of the Carl Barks books from Fantagraphics.

Todd: Yes, a lovely moment. [SPOILER] And I agree that I’d like to see the wind ceremony though I wouldn’t have expected it as far off as #6 necessarily. The “wayward sisters” line is a great catch. Almost certainly just Greg being playful but you have to wonder if they ever will acquire a third member of their group to make a ‘wayward trio’! [/SPOILER]

On the World Tour: Although it’s true that there are some similarities between a number of episodes, it seems to me that this was by design rather than accident: clearly, it was building to something bigger that was never dramatised as further episodes (by Greg) weren’t commissioned.

I also think the episodes suffer from evident time crunch. The season 1 and early season 2 episodes just seem a lot more polished than the late season 2 episodes (with a few notable exceptions such as the multi-parters) and I’m sure a lot of that was just the absolutely incredible time pressure. There are non-WT episodes like which I think would have benefitted from more time just the same — just look at how much more vibrant the NYC underworld is in “Here in Manhattan” compared to “Protection”. I’m sure with more time, “Vendettas” would have featured Hakon’s mace. But the WT is such a big block of episodes, its flaws are more transparent.

Plus, I think it had fewer places to hide - losing most of the cast, most of the regular enemies and to a large degree the strong continuity by having such a huge tier, its flaws are more visible.

But although the episodes with other clans clearly had an immediate importance to the main cast, I think lots of episodes had different strengths and are vital too. “Sanctuary”, “Walkabout”, “Mark of the Panther” and “Cloud Fathers” were great showcases for the supporting cast. “Heritage” and “Monsters” were really important for Angela’s storyline. “Golem” is a terrific and, I think, really underrated story - but I think you can see Gary Sperling’s real passion for and knowledge of the source material which there wasn’t time for otherwise. If “The New Olympians” had been successful as a backdoor pilot, that would have been a way for the ‘Gargoyles’ universe to continue and so I’m sure it would be looked on very differently.

One I find particularly interesting is “Grief”. The concept of death being suspended was one that Russell T Davies made the central concept of ’Torchwood’ season 4 and although that season had mixed reviews, I thought the material they mined from a world without death was really interesting (and horrifying). ‘Gargoyles’ couldn’t have gone quite this far but I feel like there would have been material for a 2-parter, especially one where we see the impact of the Egypt plot on the Manhattan-based characters, notably Xanatos.

If you think about the show without the world tour, it’s clearly the poorer. Also I think you can imagine the same rhythms the show has getting old - a tier of episodes featuring a Talon episode, a Coldstone episode, a Macbeth episode etc. etc. The World Tour really blew the doors off the universe not just by introducing new characters but by really developing supporting and/or minor characters - the Mazas, Anastasia, Fang etc. I tend to think it would have been better if episodes like “Protection” and “The Price” had taken place during the World Tour with the remaining clan-members. And seen as a fraction of 65 canon episodes, the tour feels a bit distended, especially when so few of those episodes have paid off yet.

One of the joys of the comic is that I think as the years pass, the World Tour will be a smaller part of the overall tapestry and those stories will inevitably feel more integrated into the overall narrative.
Ed
posted @ Fri, Aug 11, 2023 4:46:59 pm EDT from 31.94.3.40

I wonder what's caused the rather drastic delay in the 'Here in Manhattan Vol. 1' collected edition? Since all the material is completed, I have to imagine it's some physical problem, such as a paper shortage or lack of some other necessary supplies to manufacture the books. Disappointing that by the time we get this collected edition, the entire twelve-issue "Here in Manhattan" arc will likely have been published in full. Although, if I had to choose, I'd rather the collection be delayed as opposed to the actual monthly issues. I have my preorder in for the hardcover signed by Greg, so I suppose it will come when it comes. Doesn't bode super well for reprints of the SLG stories appearing anytime on the horizon, though.
Craig
posted @ Fri, Aug 11, 2023 1:17:02 pm EDT from 24.46.162.75

Craig> [SPOILER] I see. I was misled by the fact that he has a mustache and the same sleeves as Malcolm. Either the word bubble was in the wrong direction or this guy is someone after all and we'll learn his name later. He does appear in some other panels and Greg doesn't mind large casts of players. [/SPOILER]
B
B
posted @ Fri, Aug 11, 2023 9:39:33 am EDT from 74.74.246.146

JURGAN - Yes, that might have been the weakest element of the Avalon World Tour. (I remember a couple of reviews of "Eye of the Storm" that expressed relief that it didn't take that route with Erik and Gunther.) I've sometimes wondered from that whether the attempt to turn "Gargoyles" into the start of Disney's version of the Marvel Universe was misguided (and Disney wound up buying Marvel anyway).

The World Tour was at its strongest when it dealt more with such matters as revealing that gargoyles had survived in other parts of the world, and that their species had a future after all. (A crucial step, which made the World Tour necessary, I believe, whatever you think of the execution. Only the magic of Avalon or a similar phenomenon could have provided a convincing way of bringing Goliath into contact with those other clans.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Aug 11, 2023 9:09:20 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

Correction to my last post: "TOO many," not "two many." Sheesh.
Craig
posted @ Fri, Aug 11, 2023 7:25:58 am EDT from 24.46.161.88

B > [SPOILER]
No, the person who falls off his horse and says he's off to a "wonderful start" is Malcolm. We saw him get knocked down at the end of last issue. The panel of him on the ground comes right after Kenneth asks, "Where's Prince Malcolm?!" And he has slightly less overgrown hair and a different mustache than Robbie (Robbie's mustache connects to his mutton chop sideburns). This is the danger of two many brown-haired white dudes in one issue. ;)

As for Robbie, he does not have a helmet as depicted on page 1 panel 4 (or for that matter, at the end of issue 1 when we see him riding into battle). I'm fairly certain that in the panel with the line about Malcolm having all the fun, Robbie is the guy next to the helmeted soldier who speaks the line (again, note his distinctive overgrown hair and the mustache connecting to the sideburns). Helmeted dude seems to be some nondescript rando.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Fri, Aug 11, 2023 7:22:31 am EDT from 24.46.161.88

Craig> You mean we were almost spared Pauly Shore in a Disney movie? Alas.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Fri, Aug 11, 2023 4:04:01 am EDT from 64.85.245.77

Todd Jensen> [SPOILER] Not to mention Wayward Sisters was a cancelled spinoff of Supernatural focusing on Jody, Donna, Claire, Alex, Kaia and Patience [/SPOILER].
B
B
posted @ Fri, Aug 11, 2023 3:23:08 am EDT from 74.74.246.146

Craig> [SPOILER] The soldier who says the line is Robbie. He has the same clothes on and the same moustache as in his next panel, where he's lost his horse and helmet. Presumably losing them is why he sarcastically said he was off to a great start. [/SPOILER]
B
B
posted @ Fri, Aug 11, 2023 3:11:59 am EDT from 74.74.246.146

New Voices from the Eyrie podcast is out (focusing on "Upgrade"). The always wonderful and fun Thom Adcox is back! And Jennifer is back!

One thing in regards to Brooklyn being second in command: the Disney Adventures story that was published shortly prior to the series airing ("A Study in Stone," written by Michael Reaves) revealed that Brooklyn was second in command (the same story also unfortunately spoiled the twist of Demona's heel turn, so I knew a huge plot element of "Awakening" in advance). I believe there was also a Gargoyles coloring book I had that mentioned Brooklyn as second in command (I assume they were using the series bible as a source, where this is also mentioned). So by the time the question of "second in command" came up on the TV show itself, I was confused, because for a year I had already been taking for granted that it was Brooklyn, based on the supplemental books I'd read. The downside of merchandising and corporate synergy not being properly overseen, I guess.

I forget if this was discussed on prior Voices from the Eyrie podcasts--if so, I'd forgotten--but Thom Adcox originally recorded lines for the character in 'A Goofy Movie' who eventually was played by Pauly Shore in the final film! That would have been...very different.

Jurgan > I do think "Heritage" and "Monsters" might be the two weakest episodes of the entire series, so the World Tour really got off to a not-great start that may have unfairly prejudiced people against it, when most subsequent episodes were much stronger (even if there were undeniably some repeated themes, the execution of those themes was much better on an episode like, say, "Golem" than it was on those very early World Tour episodes).

On another note, those Disney Afternoon Adventures comics inspired me to go on a nostalgia kick and to buy two reprints of the DuckTales comic book run from 1990 (from the short-lived period when Disney was publishing their own run of Disney Comics). The collections were published by Gemstone, in 2007 and 2008, and were edited by David Gerstein (who is also involved in the Fantagraphics Disney Afternoon collections). I recall both stories fondly from having read them repeatedly as a kid (those issues are languishing somewhere in my parents' attic). Both storylines are 182 pages (seven issues at 26 pages an issue), making them the longest DuckTales storylines ever produced in comic form. Both are drawn by the Jaime Diaz Studio, and mostly by the ubiquitous Cosme Quartieri, whose art is never exceptional but always on-point. Seriously, this guy must have spent his every waking hour drawing Disney comics for several years in the late '80s and early '90s. The sheer amount of work he did is insane, and always at a good level of quality.

The first volume, "Scrooge's Quest," reprints issues 1-7 of the Disney Comics run, written by Marv Wolfman (most famous for writing DC Comics' "Crisis on Infinite Earths," and also for creating Marvel's Blade and DC's Cyborg and Tim Drake, among many others). The collection opens with an introduction by Wolfman explaining how he came to be familiar with the Carl Barks Disney comics, and how he feels that writing this story was one of the highlights of his career, for giving him the opportunity to write in Barks's style. The story mostly deals with Magica DeSpell kidnapping Webby and stealing Scrooge's lucky dime, although Flintheart Glomgold also plays a major role. Carl Barks himself is caricatured (as a very rare instance of a human appearing in the DuckTales universe): he appears as Scrooge's banker, and reference is even made to his chicken farm in San Jacinto. Several other Barks references are also scattered throughout the story.

The second volume I like even more, as it's less episodic and more serialized. Titled "The Gold Odyssey" (issues 9-15), it plays nicely as one long story, carrying the action from the North Pole to London (a very dark and cool storyline of Doofus being possessed by an ancient druid) and finally to outer space! It's great to see these stories again after all these years.
Craig
posted @ Fri, Aug 11, 2023 1:45:05 am EDT from 24.46.160.129

"Goliath and co. wander into a situation that has nothing to do with them and then they fix it (that's more or less like half the world tour)."

I refer to these as "Circle of Life episodes," since they mostly involve some one-off character having to learn Simba's lesson about the need to accept his destiny. A few of them are also backdoor pilots for spin-offs. There are very few truly bad episodes of Gargoyles, but these stories got very "samey."

Also, I'm out of town and a bit short on cash, so I haven't been able to get any of the new issues. My home store will hopefully hold them for me until I can scrape up enough to buy them.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Thu, Aug 10, 2023 11:04:29 pm EDT from 24.11.173.82

Sorry for the double post again, but I spotted a detail in " Dark Ages" #2 that amused me.

[SPOILER] Iago calls Demona/Angel and Hyppolyta "our wayward sisters". A few Shakespearean scholars have interpreted Shakespeare's calling the Witches in "Macbeth" "wayward sisters" rather than "weird sisters" (though the latter is the official reading). What really makes me smile at that is that one of the aforementioned gargoyle "wayward sisters" will end up getting very closely involved with that other set of Sisters. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Aug 10, 2023 9:26:23 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

[SPOILER] I'm hoping that "Dark Ages", before it concludes, will include Verity's Wind Ceremony. (Maybe at the end of #6; it'd make an effective conclusion for the mini-series.) [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Aug 10, 2023 7:57:17 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

Todd > [SPOILER]
I believe the first recorded reference to haggis was several centuries after the setting of Dark Ages. But since its origins are uncertain, it's possible that the dish was around as early as the tenth century.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Thu, Aug 10, 2023 11:47:02 am EDT from 24.46.161.109

Sorry for the double-post, but after reading the other reviews.

[SPOILER] Thanks to everyone who commented on Lord Valois' spear. I hadn't thought of that at the time, but now I can see that it does indeed suggest the Spear of Destiny, especially his term for it (I looked up "Hasta" and learned that it was a technical term for a spear borne by legionaries in ancient Rome - perhaps including Longinus?). [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Aug 10, 2023 9:50:41 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

I've now read "Dark Ages #2" online, and enjoyed it. A few thoughts.

[SPOILER] I was amused to note the names of Culen's thanes - Cawdor (that one I should have seen coming; I wonder if we'll see a Glamis as well before the end of #6), Angus, Menteth [sic]. And the mention of Culen's army being turned into haggis by the human-gargoyle alliance (had haggis been invented back then? I'll have to look it up).

We see that Culen has his own wizard - who apparently has a history with the Archmage. The wizard's name is Lord Valois, a French name (which also suggests Valmont, who'll be working with Culen's son twenty-six years later); almost a precursor of the Auld Alliance.

Culen's term for "gargoyle leader" - or "leader", at least - is "Rhydderch". The name's familiar to me; it was the name of a British king in the late 6th century (also known as "Rhydderch Hael" or "Rhydderch the Generous"), who ruled in northern Britain, to be precise. He attracted a few legends to himself, including being said to be the wielder of a magic sword named Dyrnwyn which burst into flames whenever anyone but Rhydderch touched it (and which should sound familiar to anyone here who's read Lloyd Alexander's "The Chronicles of Prydain"), and the husband of a certain Gwenddydd or Ganieda, the sister of Myrddin (a rough original of Merlin). Culen treats "Rhydderch" as a title of leadership rather than a personal name (which would be inappropriate for gargoyles at this point, obviously), and I'd like to know more about that.

Of course, the really big event is the death of Verity, which I thought was effectively handled. I'd expected her passing, but not this soon in the story. And, to add to the drama, the capture of Angel (the future Demona) by Culen, with how the rest of the characters are handling it (it's certainly enough to make Goliath forget he's supposed to stay out of the battle). I'll have more to say on all this later, when I've had a second read-through it.

I also noticed that the text in the "Once Upon a Time There Were Three Brothers" at the end waws clearer than that in #1; evidently they'd noticed the way it looked in the preceding issue and took care to fix that.

A very good continuation of the story from #1. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Aug 10, 2023 8:52:46 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

Phoenician> The actual production of the issues has been great. Few minor delays here and there, but generally everything's been on time, well produced, high quality. It's awesome.

[SPOILER] My *impression* is that Lefty is Demona's older biological brother (probably from the previous generation or the one before that) just based on appearances. I don't think Lefty is as old as Hudson is mainly. [/SPOILER]
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Thu, Aug 10, 2023 8:46:51 am EDT from 70.27.163.9

Dark Ages #2! And before we know it, we'll have Goliath's first night hearing with Gargoyles #9. At least for me, it still does *not* get old appreciating how much content we are enjoying.

From "Nightwatch" to "Rock & Roll" and "Strangers" to "The Lost" (8 issues from the main series, 2 issues from the spin-off), the wait during the Clan Building/Bad Guys era was 679 days (more than 22 months). An even if we take out the outlier longest delays of the first two issues that properly adapted "The Journey" and keep it to new canon only, the wait from "Inviation Only" to "Rock & Roll" and "The Lost" still clocked in at 399 days (a little more than 13 months). But today we celebrate our current release rate of 10 issues in only 245 days (just past the 8 month-mark). I'm positively J. Jonah Jameson-giddy right now.

Anyways, some takeaways from the current issue: [SPOILER] I had a hunch, and some quick research seems to confirm that King Culen's line of "we play the hand we're dealt" is an anachronism, unless its a reference that isn't about playing cards in Europe, which didn't really catch on until the 1300s.

In the previous issue I forgot to mention my curiosity on why Culen would consider a battle on a beach. Naturally, the location is an advantage for Kenneth's forces when they are coordinating with the Wyvern Clan, but for the opposition it seemed odd, at the least, to risk the fate of getting cornered at the beach (and with no naval support from what could be gleaned from the background). Of course, it makes ALL the more sense in this issue when you have a sorcerer that can weaponize the sea.

"And Lord Valois… well, it’s another “Val” character. Certainly conceivably the same person as Valmont - the models down to the clothing are almost identical to Greg Guler’s. But, of course, Greg likes to zig where we expect to zag so I’m keeping an open mind on the Val connection."

Definitely in the same camp, Ed. Only Greg Weisman's notecards probably know where those zag-zigs lead to!

I certainly credit learning Latin in high school thanks to Gargoyles, so the incantation was easier to translate compared to the Gaelic we've had in "Everywhere". Not a knock on the later, it just tickles me and takes me back. This series frankly helps support the notion that there is still time to become familiar with or even pick up another language. :)

And how about that "Spear of Fate". Not the first name that comes to mind for another famous spear, but its point being separated from its staff certainly has "Religious Studies 101" come to mind. I'm thrilled that of our various candidates for three New Keys of Power, one of my guesses just took more of a lead. On top of that, despite attending the 2009 Radio Play, this is the first time that I begin to wonder what Jeffrey Robbins had in mind when he began to write his new book, The Sword and the Staff: A Book of Merlin. I can't remember if the Grail was the only artifact from the Holy Land that the Round Table had any interaction with, but color me intrigued.

Speaking of magic and spells, I've noticed the spells we've encountered in the comics have not had much of that backdoor anti-spell dynamic we've seen in the more famous incantations from the show. Not a knock, because these spells do seem to be more in the vein of the Archmage's Lightning Spell where, as it is intended as a direct attack, there's not much opportunity to diffuse the conditions of a particular spell with the technicality of the incantation. Best to just duck and cover from Brother Valmont's Rain of Death or Lord Valois's water enchantments. Or attack back with a little Fulminos Venite.

I'd love to know the placeholder name of the horned gargoyle that ferried "Chomp" into battle.

Cawdor killing "Verity" is devastating.

At least twice the gargoyle that will one day fight like a demon can't help herself but argue with her sister and (from the context this issue, presumably) parent in the thick of the fighting. She's so easily distracted in her youth, and the rage that throws her off her game will continue to be an Achilles heal. There is the dramatic irony in knowing that, despite "Lefty" trying to promote the strengths in coordinating with the rest of the clan on the battlefield, those lessons will unfortunately prove irrelevant once Demona is consigned to her self-fulfulled fate as a rogue gargoyle from 1057 to more or less the modern day.

Is it off that can't help but see Menteth in the same vain as various modern-day right hands of Vogel, Owen, Glasses, etc?

I can't help but notice the through-line between Indulf to his descendants with respect to their modus operandi. Indulf holds Queen Katharine and Prince Malcolm hostage, Culen takes a page from dad and kidnaps "Angel". Now that I think about it, Grandson Constantine's threatening Princess Katharine with the fate of the gargoyle eggs seems outright uninspired, lol. Not the most creative branch of the Scottish royalty.

"It seems like Kenneth doesn't have much conviction of his own. Malcolm isn't even that strong a personality either, from what we know of him, but compared to Kenneth, he seems like a rock."

Pretty astute, Craig. Kenneth does appear to be the monarch that's shaped by events versus the type to shape them. Recall from the prose story that he and Duff are more less consigned to the sidelines until Queen Katharine is the one to come up with the plan to end Indulf's reign.

"Rhydderch" -- If Hudson wasn't mourning and holding Goliath back, I could almost hear him grumble an "Ach, away with ye" with that particular title, lol.

It's subtle, but I also love that, between 971-1057, the Scottish throne will change hands seven times (in the show's continuity) with at least three generations of human. Meanwhile, a gargoyle like Demona would have a role in claims for the Crown in 971, 997, 1040, and 1057. Sorcery aside for those latter battles, and it still really demonstrates how long lived a gargoyle *could* be. At least if there wasn't those occupational hazards consistent to the Dark Ages as well as the disadvantages of turning to stone post-Iron Age.

"Also, the Chapter title was exactly what was teased at the end of Chapter 1. I'm used to that not being the case with the main comic. Funny to think we were given the title last month and didn't know it."

I noticed that too, Matt, and I'm wondering how safe a bet it is that next issue will be dubbed "The Oath"!

I love that Robbie's Daughter is confirmed chronicler of Shari's Tale of the Three Brothers, and I'm eager to know just where these nightly bouts of storytelling fall on the timeline. Certainly after the events of the story Shari's telling, but is it after the main story's events in 971? Before or after the 975 scenes in "Vows"? It seems unlikely that it would between the years of 975-994, but I also don't see any indication to rule those years out yet. [/SPOILER]
Phoenician
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."
posted @ Thu, Aug 10, 2023 12:36:25 am EDT from 3.23.96.53

BTW, if anyone hasn't yet checked it out, CCH Pounder gives a powerhouse performance in Steven Soderbergh's miniseries Full Circle (available on Max). An entirely different character from Coldfire. But always great to see her getting some really good material she can dig her teeth into.
Craig
posted @ Thu, Aug 10, 2023 12:09:56 am EDT from 24.46.161.29

A thought I just had about upcoming events in the main comic.

[SPOILER] We know from the teaser for #10 that the trio will work together (if with some challenges, thanks to Brooklyn being more apart from Broadway and Lexington) to deal with a kidnapping - clearly Rosaria and Peter's. After seeing their kidnappers wear the "trio masks" again in the latest issue, it struck me that we should definitely see the trio encountering the kidnappers in those costumes. It'd be another great example of "the best villains are distorted echoes of the heroes" (the approach that helped produce Thailog) that Greg Weisman is fond of. (It'd be particularly fun to see Brooklyn commenting on the design of his mask being "behind the times" - as in, no eyepatch, for example. For that matter, I wonder whether the trio would end up pulling the masks off the kidnappers in an almost "Scooby Doo"-style - "And they'd have gotten away with it, if it wasn't for those meddling gargoyles." [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Aug 9, 2023 8:01:35 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

Sorry for the double post. A couple more quick thoughts on Dark Ages #2:

[SPOILER]
A subtle detail I initially missed: Cawdor has a scar above and below his eye, much like the one Hudson will later have. Hmm. Wonder to make of that.

Demona asking what "Lefty" knows of her strengths is particularly brazen when you realize that this is the second in command of her clan that she's talking back to. Uh, yeah, Demona, I would imagine that he probably DOES know your strengths pretty well, since that's kind of his job.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Wed, Aug 9, 2023 3:55:50 pm EDT from 24.46.160.150

Dark Ages #2

[SPOILER]
All Drew's character designs of the younger characters are great...not an easy thing to pull off in an effective and realistic, subtle way. I'm really digging the look of the younger Archmage, now that we get our first good look at him. (Although, a slight continuity error, I'm pretty sure his hair and beard were already gray in his very brief appearance in issue 1).

I'm not big on caring about the biological relationships between the gargoyles (if it doesn't matter to the characters, why should it matter to me?), but Lefty's boisterous laugh when maiming humans in battle is a strong point in favor of "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree."

I feel like the line, "Can't let Malcolm have all the fun," is meant to be spoken by Robbie? Instead, it seems to be attributed to some random soldier in a helmet.

Matt > I've always thought that very pale character you mention in "Vows" was meant to be Robbie/the Captain of the Guard. Just badly miscolored. It makes sense that he would appear in the episode. And while "Vows" is one of my all-time favorite episodes of any show ever, it does not have the show's best animation, so it makes sense that there would be a painting error (seriously, that guy looks like a corpse!).

Hmm, Cawdor. Interesting allusion to Macbeth's (anachronistic) title in the Scottish Play.

As an Illuminati buff, I find Valmont/Duval to be one of the more interesting puzzles of the series, so I was very excited to meet "Valois." Maybe it's just the choice Martina Pignedoli made on the colors, but he looks very pale, and also doesn't appear to be nearly as muscular as he was in the SLG comics. The spear is definitely an intriguing detail, and perhaps lends some credence to the speculation around what the three new keys to power will be.

I'm not going to lie, Valois's use of the water immediately made me think of the Liquidator from Darkwing Duck.

It's kind of hilarious that the Archmage has this entire book of powerful spells, but he only ever uses that one spell. Just goes to show what a shallow character he is.

Kind of wild that ten issues into the Dynamite comics, we've gotten way more action from Bronx's parents now than we have from the good boy himself.

The coloring is indeed absolutely gorgeous on Verity's death scene. Drew's art is magnificent, and Ms. Pignedoli's colors sell so much emotion. Bravo.

There's mention made of an "Angus" being lost. Did I miss this character somewhere, or is it just a throwaway mention?

Interesting that Valois just kind of...deserts? I wonder if he's trying to pry the Grimorum from the Archmage. I do hope we see more of him.

I'm not entirely clear on how Menteth would know that Verity was one of the gargoyles' leaders. I suppose he could have seen her giving orders, but to make that observation and deduction in the heat of battle, and even more fundamentally, to imbue the notion of hierarchy into a terrifying monstrous species that is actively trying to kill him, feels like a bit of a leap. I wonder if he has some prior experience with the gargoyles (either the Wyvern clan or other clans)?

Gotta love Culen. Pragmatic enough to know when he's beaten, and ballsy enough to hold a gargoyle at swordpoint! Sure, he's a complete heel, but I like this guy. Leave it to Greg to write intriguing, nuanced villains.

Ed > Interesting point about the reduced violence in comparison to the SLG run. The Battle of Rathveramoen did feel rather more brutal than this one. There's one point on the final page of SLG #11 where Demona snaps a guy's neck! Whereas here, the go-to move for Demona and Hyppolyta is the more Three Stooges-style smashing two guys' heads together.

Very interesting, Lefty's comment about Demona's "strengths." He seems to be implying that Demona is stronger when surrounded by her clan (unlike the "berserker" Hyppolyta). I wonder how much thought she's given to that advice over the centuries, if any. Of course, her immediate gut reaction is to reject the idea out of headstrong pride.

Hudson's brief but eloquent response to the Archmage ("Everything, sorcerer") is my favorite line in the issue. You don't need flowery dialogue to speak volumes. Especially when you're Hudson.

Kenneth is an interesting character. When we met him in "Avalon," he was clearly a benevolent, decent guy, but probably not the most effective leader. His massive blind spot toward Constantine, and his desire to court Finella, were pretty huge weaknesses that obviously led to his downfall. Here, we see younger Malcolm acting as Kennth's moral compass, and Kenneth listens. It seems like Kenneth doesn't have much conviction of his own. Malcolm isn't even that strong a personality either, from what we know of him, but compared to Kenneth, he seems like a rock.

The new look of "Three Brothers" is much more appealing. I'm sure some will mourn the more "authentic" aged-parchment look from last issue, but this approach is much easier on the eyes.

As I anticipated, the more fleshed-out version of "Three Brothers" is slowing down a bit to fill out the six issues. Here, we only get the beginning portion of the "Part 2" as originally posted on Ask Greg all those decades ago. Really love what Greg is doing here. Maintaining the essence of the original while adding a lot of great prose and nuance to the piece. Leave it to Greg to make me anticipate the next chapter in a story I already know! But what choice do I have? I wait....
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Wed, Aug 9, 2023 2:05:01 pm EDT from 24.46.160.150

ADAM> I think they're still using the edited version of Deadly Force and the incorrect ending for Vows but apart from that, I haven't noticed anything off in the D+ eps.
Algae
'Nuff said
posted @ Wed, Aug 9, 2023 12:57:40 pm EDT from 88.87.179.191

I believe the disney+ versions are uncut except for Mayne deadly force.

City of stone and the gathering are definitely uncut.
Alex
posted @ Wed, Aug 9, 2023 12:27:06 pm EDT from 70.27.163.9

Sorry, but I have another question that came to mind. I don't know if this has been brought up before, but has anyone noticed if any of the Gargoyle episodes are edited on Disney +? I haven't watched on the streaming service in a while, since I usually watch with my DVDs.

Thanks.
Adam
posted @ Wed, Aug 9, 2023 10:47:55 am EDT from 208.87.237.201

Adam> Maybe some of the background characters are new, but no new major/"named" Gargoyles.

Dark Ages #2: [SPOILER] I liked this issue a lot. Random thoughts ahoy:

I like the detail of Demona claiming Goliath is "good" and "strong". That's actually really good insight into her character. Consistently, Demona has always *despised* what she's perceived as weakness. Especially weakness in herself. (Just watched City of Stone, and just after the scene where she rescues Macbeth/Gruoch and let the Hunter get away you can *see* that she's angry with herself and then there are numerous examples in Long Way to Morning, Awakening even.)

Hyppolyta is fun. And I liked the little exchange between Demona and Lefty.

Archmage is always *so* much fun. The design is great. And his voice is so distinct (not just David Warner, but his narrative "voice"). Seems like Brother Valmont is MAYBE popping up again? Given Valmont's connection to Culen's son, Constantine. That wouldn't be too surprising.

I think there's a few too many brown haired guys with beards, sometimes it's hard to keep track of who's who (I read along out loud in voices and sometimes I'm like "...who is this?"). Obviously in context it would become obvious, but sometimes I found it a little confounding. I dunno how you... change what they look like, though. Kenneth is wearing a crown and that helps. The Captain has the handlebar mustache, but still.

Having said that, the art is great. I love the rough lines and the colours. It kinda feels like what the SLG comic was sort of going for sometimes, something more gothic and heavy and less disney aftertoon. Which, again, puts me in mind of House of the Dragon in a really good way. That heavy, medieval epic tone. It's awesome.

There's a lot of introspective talking for a massive war scene, but it's kind of a necessary evil I think. [/SPOILER]
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Wed, Aug 9, 2023 10:43:33 am EDT from 70.27.163.9

Good morning! As usual, my thoughts on Dark Ages Chapter 2 without having talked to anyone about it:

[SPOILER] - The first page quotes are interesting. All from Hudson/Mentor so far. Not sure what to make of that. Also, the Chapter title was exactly what was teased at the end of Chapter 1. I'm used to that not being the case with the main comic. Funny to think we were given the title last month and didn't know it.

- This chapter is a big battle. I suppose with only 6 chapters planned we have to keep things moving. No build up to this, just right into it. Though I suspect there might be an even bigger battle coming.

- Valois certainly caught my attention for a few reasons. All I could think is that Bishansky is gonna be interested in this guy for sure! I suspect he and Brother Valmont are one and the same. And we still have the Duval connection to consider. Whatever the case, he and the Archmage seem well aware of each other and that suggests some interesting backstory. Furthermore, he possess and uses a magic spear. Could this be the same spear that Demona acquired in the (non-canonical) radio play? Could this be one of the New Keys of Power getting teased here?

- I'm curious who the gargoyle is that drops Chomp on Culen's troops and is later grabbed by the watery hands of Valois. Not like Greg to give a speaking role to a random gargoyle. He could've easily given this part to Second or whomever, but didn't. So I'm intrigued about this guy. I hope to learn more about him soon. And speaking of small characters, there is a human that rides in with Robert at one point that bears a resemblance to a background character from "Vows". In that episode, he has very pale skin and black hair and mustache. This guy has a similar look. I always noted him in "Vows" because of his unique appearance, but non-speaking and inconsequential role. I think that's him. We'll see.

- All the stuff with Goliath's generation is awesome. I love Goliath's caution (until Angel is captured and he loses it, even having to be physically held back by Mentor!). Iago's line comes off as a little shady, though I don't know if that's just me knowing his future or just imagining how the line would be read. Hyppolyta's battle prowess is crazy. What a warrior! Lefty calls her a berserker and you can't argue with that! And Angel is not yet the warrior she will become. She tries to keep up with Hyppolyta who she clearly looks up to. Their relationship is really interesting and I feel Hyppolyta was a huge influence on the gargoyle Angel is to become. Lovely that Goliath and Angel are already showing signs of their young love. Angel calling Goliath "strong and good" is such a juxtaposition to her thoughts a thousand years later.

- And then we get to the really hard stuff. The death of Verity. We hardly knew her and yet it hurts. We've speculated about her for so many years and we lose her in the second Chapter. Sad. I think everyone knew that she was unlikely to survive the mini-series, but I was not expecting it this soon. Just really changes the tone of the rest of this chapter for sure. Even gives Hyppolyta pause (and maybe a tinge of guilt?). Mentor, of course, is devastated and his quick revenge and fury and grief is a side of Hudson we've never seen. Wow. All of the art and imagery around Verity's death is amazing. Just wow.

- Lots of little moments I enjoyed her too. Seeing Second, Sacrifice, Chomp, Chaw, Brooksbro, and Desdemona is great even in non-speaking roles. Will Brooksbro ever speak!? Looking forward to seeing more of the trio and their friend. I love how the gargoyles talk about each other. Just as Brooklyn said they do in "Awakening". "Friend". "Daughter", "Child", "Sister", "He you would call mate". Neat! Mentor and Lefty's little sign to each other. Not sure what that means, though I think Mentor is telling Lefty to follow Culen's men with captive Angel. And I love that Goliath and the gargoyles and the Kings and Princes of Scotland and their men all put their trust in Mentor and follow his lead. He sure was an influential figure back in his heyday! Funny to think that the same guy that talks as an equal to royalty will one day spend his nights watching Celebrity Hockey. Guess that's getting older for ya.

- Don't have too much to say about the prose at this point. The story continues. Glad we are getting into the meat of the backstory now. Looking forward to what is to come. The narrator is confirmed as Robbie's daughter. I'm still thinking Alexander is Lexington. I had thought Charlemagne was Broadway, but now I'm wondering if it is Brooklyn. Hard to say.

- Really awesome stuff and I'm very excited for Chapter 3 and beyond. The art is phenomenal. Really gorgeous. I occasionally mix up Robbie and Malcolm and also Kenneth and Culen. Humans all look alike, eh? But aside from that minor mark, I'm blown away by the art. Beautiful stuff. The dialogue has a very medieval feel and that really helps put you in 971. Great writing from Greg, as always. [/SPOILER]

That's my thoughts. Looking forward to hearing yours.
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Narrator, "The Reach"
posted @ Wed, Aug 9, 2023 10:22:20 am EDT from 204.184.178.1

quick question about Dark Ages #2 for those that have read it. Do they show any new Gargoyles in the issue? Thanks.
Adam
posted @ Wed, Aug 9, 2023 10:03:07 am EDT from 208.87.237.201

I've wondered about that; it seems like a really big delay. I even speculated (though I don't have any evidence for it, of course) that they'd decided to have all twelve issues in it, which would definitely require the release date to be changed for after #12's publication. But since, the last time I checked, it was "Volume One", there must be a different reason.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Aug 9, 2023 9:50:03 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

The release date for the first trade paperback has changed from September to February.
B
B
posted @ Wed, Aug 9, 2023 9:44:55 am EDT from 74.74.246.146

On that particular episode of "Young Justice" - and tying in with the mentions of Shakespeare (including the fact that "The Gathering" featured a few Shakespeare characters) - I've long felt that that scene between Lex Luthor and Speedy felt a lot like the scene in "Hamlet" where Claudius talks down a vengeful Laertes, then manipulates him into helping him deal with Hamlet.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Aug 9, 2023 9:19:32 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

Pardon the double post, but there's a couple things I wanted to address.

First of all there's The Gathering, while I still don't exactly see it under a comedic light I can understand some of the elements from Shakespeare's comedies are there. More than anything it reminds me of the changeling child bit from Midsummer's only now it's the main focus and point of conflict.

Narratively speaking, this is an important point because this is the point where Goliath and Xanatos can't go back to their previous antagonism. For Goliath, despite not liking anything about Xanatos or Fox, can't sit idly by and let Oberon take their child. For Xanatos, Goliath has now saved his wife and his child and owes him a debt he can't repay. This would have several long-term impacts with both the creation of Coldfire and Coldsteel as well as the future relationship with Lex and Alexander. And on a plus side, Xanatos and Petros' relationship begins to mend.

Alex> It's funny that you would reference season 2 episode "Satisfaction" because that's also an important episode for the changing of relationships. Ever since the beginning, Red Arrow and Green Arrow's relationship had been contentious but now in the wake of Artemis' "death" and his and Speedy's falling out, this is when Ollie is given a much needed pick-me-up from Red Arrow. Their relationship begins to heal even as Speedy takes his own dark path as Arsenal.

I bring these episodes up to demonstrate Greg's skill as a writer and how the narrative changes alongside shifting character dynamics. Xanatos' open antagonism with the Clan comes to a close, at least for now. Ollie and Will's tensions cease for the sake of Speedy and the memory of Artemis, the heroes' attitude towards Aqualad turn almost murderous, again for the sake of Artemis. And Speedy starts his own path of recklessness towards the villains that will have consequences of its own.

[SPOILER] Also forgot, Culen refers to Hudson as Rhydderch, a Welsh name that means "exalted ruler." While it is odd hearing a Welsh term being used in medieval Scotland, I can't help but think the old gargoyle lucked out on names. It'd be quite the mouthful calling him that throughout the series. [/SPOILER]
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Wed, Aug 9, 2023 4:32:40 am EDT from 64.85.245.77

Dark ages indeed, time for some quick thoughts on issue 2.

[SPOILER] This one was pretty action packed and we got our first magic fight in a long time between the Archmage and Valois (who almost certainly has a connection with Duval/Valmont and are we just assuming that it's the same guy at this point?).

Something I noticed this comic was that it was the females that were more itchy for battle, especially Hyppolyta, in most fiction it's the males. But it seems that Verity ended up being the token casualty of this battle, poor Hudson.

Besides the return of Fulminus Venite (always a classic) we get a new spell. A quick bit of translating has it as, "Spear of Fate, hear my voice. I call the sea, strike king Culen’s enemies." Again, take that with a grain of salt, I'm no linguist. But judging by the name, that could've been the Lance of Longinus aka the Holy Lance or Spear of Destiny. And with the spearhead removed during the battle, I think we might be getting something from Religious Studies 101 in the future.

And finally, the next part in The Tale of the Three Brothers. Looks like we're moving up the timeline because this next section is written like a Shakespearean monologue as told by someone witnessing a play. Personally, I glad it moved from the aged parchment look. It made it heard to read. [/SPOILER]

But that's all for now, can't wait for issue 3!
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Wed, Aug 9, 2023 3:56:47 am EDT from 64.85.245.77

Todd> Oh yeah, there's a couple of episodes that would just be written totally differently if the outline for The Gathering was just a Xanatos/Oberon story (Outback, Ill Met by Moonlight, Hunter's Moon). And I meant it when I think the story works as is. I'm not just being polite. The overarching story of Xanatos and Goliath eventually coming together and being unlikely allies living in the Eyrie Building is great, and the Gathering is obviously an essential piece of that.

But I think when breaking the story, nowadays there'd be less "well Goliath and the clan have to be involved somehow". Like in Young Justice season 2, there's an episode where Speedy (an *extremely* minor character who has basically just been introduced) goes to hunt down and kill Lex Luthor (who's not even the main villain). And that's pretty much the episode, is just those two. Green Arrow and Red Arrow (who also are just supporting characters really) make appearances, but it's largely just these two supporting characters duking it out. I don't think an episode like that would have really been conceived of as it is back in the mid-90s or at least would have been allowed to come together because it just goes completely against any sort of conventional wisdom.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Tue, Aug 8, 2023 11:17:30 pm EDT from 70.27.163.9

ED - I might add that, the last time I saw "The Gathering Part One" (for the "Gargoyles" 25th anniversary) I spotted for the first time a particularly touching moment for Renard; when he learns that Anastasia has remarried, he sadly clasps her hand. A really good touch.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Aug 8, 2023 9:06:14 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

I find “The Gathering”, part one especially, so moving. Seeing these characters, almost all of whom have been villains hitherto, rallying to save Alex… seeing Owen’s loyalty to Xanatos put to the test, seeing Xanatos through Petros’ eyes anew, giving Renard his redemption…. It’s phenomenal.

Speaking of phenomenal…

DARK AGES #2

[SPOILER] Wow. We’ve had some great issues but I think this has to be my favourite of the Dynamite books so far. It’s… well… huge.

“We let no one go.” - I’m intrigued that these introductory quotes are continuing. I love the way it establishes who the clan are - we’ve never seen this truism of the clan but then, with such small numbers and after such a staggering tragedy, perhaps it never came up. It also echoes Brooklyn’s comment from a recent issue of the main book. But also… that first page is so often used inconsequentially whereas these quotes really set the atmosphere. Assuming the pattern continues, I’m intrigued to see how it continues (and I also hope that somehow these can be incorporated into the eventual TPB).

Drew Moss is on absolute top form. It’s fun to see the younger characters still. I especially like seeing the younger Archmage whose beard hasn’t turned white at this point. Given how long it was by 974, presumably the stress of this story causes it to turn white soonish.

Still not sure about “It was…” leading into GARGOYLES: DARK AGES. It feels as though when this was written it was ‘the Dark Ages’ or something. Oh well.

“The Draw” - After a very reticent start, one-worders are making a comeback big time just lately.

Lefty’s cackle is very Demonaesque.

So we meet some fantastic new characters. Cawdor would be memorable for the name alone, let alone… well, we’ll get to that. Menteth has a really cool design. And Lord Valois… well, it’s another “Val” character. Certainly conceivably the same person as Valmont - the models down to the clothing are almost identical to Greg Guler’s. But, of course, Greg likes to zig where we expect to zag so I’m keeping an open mind on the Val connection.

I like the way Valois creates hands from water. Not only is it a sinister attack but it’s similar enough to the Archmage’s attack in “Avalon” Part Two that it suggests that the Archmage ripped off Valois which is kind of hilarious. (I wonder if we’ll find out the Archmage’s actual name in this miniseries).

All Drew’s art is absolutely stunning but that shot of Chomp is especially joyous.

Credit to Jeff Eckleberry too. I don’t usually mention the lettering too much but there’s a lot of great SFX work here.

David Warner’s performance is so indelible that “Fulminus Venite” was ringing in my ears. Valois and the Archmage’s mutual “so he IS here” does a great job of indicating their characters but I’m very intrigued to see where these guys go. It also makes massive sense to me to give the Archmage a nemesis. He can’t be an antagonist to the gargoyles for all that time but equally he’s such an unpleasant character that you’d think he would square off against them sooner. Giving the Archmage a powerful foe keeps him plausibly on the side of the good guys.

Interesting design for the gargoyle fighting near Second (don’t recognise who it is).

Hyppolyta is genuinely terrifying in some of these scenes. As horrifying as Demona can be, she seldom comes across as truly monstrous - ironically, she’s too human in her need to gloat and preen and rage. She’s horrifying but human-scale even when she’s planning acts of mass terror. But Hyppolyta really does feel otherworldly - ‘berserker’ indeed, clawing her way through the soldiers with such sinister relish, completely in control and yet so deadly. It helps that her design is on point. Amazing character.

And we do see Demona’s love for Goliath expressed as defending his goodness— even though ironically she would say much worse about Goliath in years to come.

Some of the dialogue in this issue is just incredible but I don’t think there’s a better line than: “Oh, the irony, monster, to hear thee spoon out physic that thyself consumed not.” I don’t recognise it as a reference (though Todd or others may) but there’s a poetry to the line that I love and perhaps a broader resonance than the literal. Verity is very much the embodiment of “physic” - the heart and moral health of the clan - and in a broader sense, this alliance was her idea - and yet… well.

Jeff absolutely sells the SFX — doing a SFX for such a dramatic moment… that’s a REALLY hard one to get right. One wrong move and it’s 60s Batman. But this is perfect. And then Martina Pignedoli’s colours - the deep shadow on Verity’s face, the red behind. And, of course, Drew’s incredible drawing.

I love that this moment was abrupt. I love the page that follows where the tragedy comes to rest. I love the raw emotion in Hudson’s face so brilliantly brought to life by Drew Moss. And we see Hudson’s vengeance - a warrior’s vengeance - brutal but also swift. Shades of Demona’s attack on Gillecomgain although we don’t see the details of what happened here.

(This is where it appears that there’s a good gulf between the “S&P” of the SLG run and this. I’m not saying I wanted Hudson drenched in blood but I feel like SLG would have shown an indication of blood. It also makes me wonder if Disney will want some amendments made to #5 especially when it’s reprinted, and perhaps ‘Bad Guys’ #4 and #5 too - I hope not. Especially since the age rating is, nominally, ‘teen’ although frankly I feel like the book falls in perfectly with the classic series in terms of where the envelope is pushed to).

The death of Verity… sigh. I know we expected it. Didn’t make it any the less gut-wrenching. But I really wanted to see more of her. We’ve wondered about her for so long. I guess that’s the tragedy. And hopefully this does so well that we get a ‘Dark Ages’ ongoing and flashbacks to show who Verity was. But it was such a brief glimpse we had of her. That’s the tragedy I suppose and also it just shows how powerfully her character was drawn that, even notwithstanding her relationship to Hudson, her death has such a great impact.

I love the poise of it, the quiet. The silent slowness of her final seconds. It’s… it’s just so good.

And Hudson (I know I should say Angel and Mentor but I can’t quite get my head into that yet)… well, he’s right back in. Just superb.

Another great Greg line - “turn your men to haggis”. We have the high poetry of the earlier line and now a very guttural (er, literally) image showing that Menteth is either of low birth or at least not very interested in flowery language… or even being sympathetic for the men. (It also is effective in conveying the brutality of the battle even while it’s not being shown).

I love how Culen is shown to be clever and ruthless. He’s not hanging back cowering - he gets right into the action. And Demona learns nothing from Verity - she’s too busy comparing herself and trying to show off. I love the way Drew draws teen Demona - she really does look teenage. Although in terms of writing, it just shows how little Demona has really matured. “A gargoyle of unknown depths”. Oh dear. I love how Lefty’s advice is genuinely good.

Nice to get some good Goliath moments. I also like the way the whole rookery system feels much more explicit in the way the different generations relate to each other. It’s implied if not outright confirmed that Lefty is the parent generation to Demona and Hudson and Verity both talk of their children.

I like the use of the term “Rhydderch” although I had always associated it with Welsh rather than Scottish. However, a quick search (see Rhydderch ap Dynfnwal) makes it clear why the name is used here in the context of Culen and Hudson…and it strongly, strongly suggests where this goes next, but I won’t dwell on that.

I love that Hudson contains Goliath. Although Goliath is still young and Hudson is still in his prime, you sense that Goliath could break free but has some enduring sense of faith in his leader.

I love “Man-king”! Somehow sounds so much less grand.

I’m not sure if there’s meant to be a comma in the Archmage’s first line. My mind goes instantly back to one of David Warner’s past line readings but the comma changes the emphasis and not in a way I can immediately parse. Perhaps it’s to indicate a greater pause although I wouldn’t have naturally thought a comma serves that.

Lefty and Hudson having a system… oh I love these two.

Malcolm being a man of his word and obliging Kenneth to be the same… love it. I’m reminded of the tensions we later see in Macbeth’s era about the role of the gargoyles. And of course, Malcolm’s sense of indebtedness doesn’t extend to a sense of decorum in raising his daughter not to fear and distrust the gargoyles but… oh well.

That final page and especially that last panel… oh man. Excellent stuff.

This issue was rammed. Even though it was, as ever, a quick read I felt like so much had happened that I had to check it wasn’t extra-long. Truly absolutely incredible.

And! “The Tale of the Three Brothers”.

THANK YOU to the Dynamite design team for sorting the font and sizing. Pretty much all the issues I had last issue were solved - much larger, much clearer and the interplay between the present of the narrator and the present of Shari’s story is clear. It made it so much more enjoyable to read.

(It could just be the way it’s justified but I think there’s an extra space after “None of Indulf’s subjects liked him…”. No big deal and I might be my imagination but otherwise hope it’s picked up for the trade).

“An Italian story of betrayal”… hmm… doesn’t narrow it down too hugely.

I like the way this chapter really interplays between the two timelines in more interesting ways. We confirm (if it wasn’t sufficiently clear before) that this is Wyvern and we know it’s now “strategically important”… although for what reasons it’s still unclear. I suppose the presence of a castle would be reason enough, and the presence of a clan of allied gargoyles all the more. Still, I wonder if there are other strategic significances to the location we’ve still to uncover.

Capitalisation is interesting here. Both “king” and “gargoyle” are capitalised where they wouldn’t normally be. A little odd for “gargoyles” to be capitalised when “humans” aren’t… I guess if they’re part of the “Gargoyle nation” but then I don’t know the narrator of this story would see them that way.

More importantly, we get confirmation that the narrator is Robbie’s daughter. I certainly hope we get to meet her in the comic pages before the mini-series is out as I’m intrigued.

We get some characterisation of Charlemagne but I don’t spot any further hints on his identity.

Anyway… I’ve talked loads and I’m sure there’s lots I’ve missed. Absolutely bananas how good this issue is. Some lovely colours - slightly regret I didn’t order Mirka Andolfo’s seeing it here.

I have to say though, the best covers are almost always the interior artists. I don’t know if it’s just the familiarity or just that George and Drew are so good. I wish they weren’t 10 copy incentives so I could get them via my LCS (not enough demand for 10 - I’ve asked! - and I can’t justify 10 copies per issue myself). But I guess because they’re so good, they’re probably really effective sales tools which hopefully allows us to live again, for a while longer at least.

Greg, Drew, Martina, Jeff, Nate… magnificent. Absolutely magnificent. [/SPOILER]
Ed
posted @ Tue, Aug 8, 2023 8:51:35 pm EDT from 31.94.29.148

I think that the gargoyles needed to be in "The Gathering". Without their helping Xanatos against Oberon (particularly Goliath coming up with the solution of having Puck stay to tutor Alex), Xanatos coming to their aid at the end of "Hunter's Moon" and giving them sanctuary in the castle would have been less convincing (or at least, the gargoyles accepting Xanatos's offer - even given that it was probably the only alternative to being captured by the Gargoyle Task Force - would have been less believable; Xanatos might have still showed up at St. Damien's Cathedral, but it'd feel far more like wanting to be the one to "own" the gargoyles, rather than have someone else, like the NYC authorities, beat him to them).
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Aug 8, 2023 8:40:50 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

OH, and funny story. As a child I never saw part 2 of the Gathering. (I watched the show when I was 5-6 so I have no memory of why) I remember the Gargoyles getting home from the World Tour, but I have *no* memory of any of the Oberon stuff.

So when I saw Possession a few weeks or days or whatever later, and Xanatos was asking Owen to cast magic spells and turn into Puck, it was *very* confusing for me. Somehow I had it in my head that Puck had turned Owen's fist into stone and possessed him or something. But I think I saw the Price, so I dunno why I would have thought that. Maybe I just didn't see the tag at the end.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Tue, Aug 8, 2023 3:41:28 pm EDT from 70.27.163.9

Craig> I think the Gathering is mostly solid. The only thing I think is weak about it, is that Goliath has so little to do and he once again really has no emotional investment (though it's not as big an issue for me in the Gathering as it is in Avalon), but that's really par for the course in season 2. Goliath and co. wander into a situation that has nothing to do with them and then they fix it (that's more or less like half the world tour). Titania has to kinda drag the Gargoyles into the story. And then they just do the right thing because it's the right thing, which I always find kind of unsatisfying. Personal motives for characters are always so much stronger.

It's why I think Cloud Fathers is one of the strongest episodes, maybe of the whole series (despite the small scope). While Heritage (despite being an extremely similar story) is one of the weakest. Again, that's just my opinion. But I think Elisa just has so much more reason to care in Cloud Fathers and that makes the story more powerful.

I think nowadays, with a story like the Gathering, Greg and co. would be freer to just... make it a Xanatos story without having to find a way to include the Gargoyles. Xanatos is the main character for two episodes, and the Gargoyles are asleep or whatever. Not saying Greg and the team would *want* to do that, or that the story isn't good the way it is, I just think it'd free up more time and space for things with Xanatos, maybe give Fox a bigger arc or role in the proceedings, maybe a juicy Fox/Xanatos scene or a scene where she can reflect on the revelation her mother is an ancient Fairy queen.

I love the king of the modern world vs. king of the ancient world motif of the story. I like that the whole thing is just a massive gambit by Titania. Love Kate Mulgrew as Titania, she's just amazing. The battle with the giant Oberon is kind of goofy, and I think Fox blasting Oberon is a bit narmy, but I like it a lot as a conclusion to the story, the motivations and pieces all make a lot of sense. The character focus in it's amazing. Every member of the Xanatos (and Renard) family gets a big moment to shine, and you really get a strong sense of who these people are. Plus I just... like all these characters. Halcyon is amazing, love Petros, love Xanatos, love Fox.

It's genuinely about Family in a way that feels real and powerful and impactful, and it's hard to make that seem sincere and I think that two parter does it really well.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Tue, Aug 8, 2023 3:16:27 pm EDT from 70.27.163.9

Alex > I took your meaning, and I agree, re: "The Gathering" being a Shakespearean comedy in the way that "City of Stone" is a tragedy. You've explained it well, and it makes intuitive sense to me. "The Gathering" has a lot to recommend it (the Puck reveal of course, one of the greatest moments in the entire series; Petros and Renard joining the action; the reunion of the clan and Hudson's great line), but I always found it my least favorite of the multiparters (this isn't a knock on its quality; that's some stiff competition). It might be in part due to its brevity, as the shortest multiparter...it just can't include as much as the others. It might also be because it's the only multiparter with no flashbacks, which always enhance the epic quality of the show. And it's also likely because the second part is mostly one big battle sequence, which just isn't all that interesting to me (although, again, there are obviously great individual moments throughout that episode...the overall structure just doesn't do much for me). I also remember that as a kid I was very excited to see the Gathering on Avalon since it had been hyped up, and was disappointed that we saw so little of it.

"The Gathering" is also an interesting and unique instance of a multiparter on Gargoyles that was written by multiple teams. Brynne Chandler and Lydia Marano handled Part 1, but were joined by Gary Sperling for Part 2. Presumably, toward the end of the season, it was all hands on deck.
Craig
posted @ Tue, Aug 8, 2023 1:00:27 pm EDT from 209.140.48.1

Most episodes of all ages animation are comedies because they end happily, I just meant it resembled a Shakespearean comedy structure where the story is kind of madcap and there's like a broader more comedic tone than a lot of the other multiparters. (Dustin Hoffman in Stranger than Fiction actually put it pretty well: To quote Italo Calvino, 'The ultimate meaning to which all stories refer has two faces: the continuity of life, the inevitability of death.' Tragedy, you die. Comedy, you get hitched.")

Not that the subject matter itself is light-hearted or fancy free or that the scope of the conflict isn't epic, but like even the Puck revelation is kind of a joke of sorts. With the "visual aids" and such. Oberon is kind of comic too in his own way. Also all the mistaken identity stuff is kind of the hallmark of a comedy.

I know it puts this image in folks' heads that I'm saying "The Gathering" is like an Austin Powers movie or something, but I do mean it more in the traditional Shakespearean sense (i.e.... Midsummer Night's Dream) rather than that.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Tue, Aug 8, 2023 12:40:08 pm EDT from 70.27.163.9

A further thought on "The Gathering" in the "older definition of 'comedy' sense" (and since this is about one of the original episodes rather than the Dynamite comic, I decided I could drop the spoiler tags). We also have the grand homecoming of Goliath, the big reunion with the clan (which shows such a dramatic contrast to the one in "Future Tense"), and Hudson's line that we discussed last week upon learning that there were other gargoyle clans out there. All definitely a strong sense of the original definition of "comedy".
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Aug 8, 2023 9:42:47 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

Dark Ages> [SPOILER] I don't think anyone expects Verity to survive this mini-series. And I fully expect Hyppolyta to survive until the Wyvern Massacre. I've also suspected for a while that she is Iago's mate, though neither of them are very deeply in love with each other. We'll see on that one. Lefty might survive Alliance, but perhaps not. His death might open up the spot for Goliath. But that might not happen for years. Hard to say. We don't know enough about Antiope at all to be able to really make any guesses. She could die soon or survive to the Massacre or anytime in between. Or she could've left with the split off clan. Who knows? [/SPOILER]

Maybe we'll get have some answers by this time tomorrow! I'll be back then with my thoughts on Alliance Chapter 2!
Matt
posted @ Tue, Aug 8, 2023 9:33:59 am EDT from 47.233.90.133

[SPOILER] Comedy can have some dark elements at times. For example, "Much Ado About Nothing" has for one of its main plot points a villain duping a young man into believing that his betrothed is unfaithful to him, resulting in him calling off the marriage at the altar and denouncing her so vehemently that she faints - after which the people closest to her make it look as if she actually died from shock, until they get evidence that the accusations were false. (And originally, "comedy" meant, not a work that was funny or had a lot of humor in it, but a work where, although things might seem dark for a while, a joyful resolution takes place - in this case, Xanatos and Fox getting to keep Alex after all. Though maybe Puck/Owen wouldn't have been entirely happy with that resolution.) [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Aug 8, 2023 8:46:03 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

Alex> I haven't had any problem with Amazon since last time. I hope this is cleared up soon.

[SPOILER] It's hard to call The Gathering comedic since the central conflict is basically taking a newborn child away from his parents and certainly without their consent. [/SPOILER]
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Tue, Aug 8, 2023 4:12:50 am EDT from 64.85.245.77

Alex > My Gargoyles #7 is showing up fine on Amazon (in the U.S.). Sorry you're experiencing that. Might be worth sending an email, as Bishansky recently sent an email due to an issue many of us were experiencing with Guided View, and it was resolved quickly thereafter.
Craig
posted @ Tue, Aug 8, 2023 12:12:47 am EDT from 24.46.161.34

Is no one else having that issue with Gargoyles #7 on Amazon still? I can't even imagine what's causing it.

[SPOILER] Interesting thoughts, Todd. Everything seems about right, though, knowing Greg some part of me was like "I bet some of these characters are off floating off in an iceberg somewhere, Greg doesn't like to waste a good character.

I find myself really intrigued by Lefty, probably because I suspect he's Demona's biological brother. Also I just like that blue/red colour palette, it's really nice.

I think one thing that's really cool about Dark Ages, which I don't know if I expected, but it does have this great sort of House of the Dragon vibe to it. Everything feels really *substantial* in a very different way than it does in Gargoyles, we're not following character stories or Shakespearean dramas, this is a *war* story about a *time*.

I really, really love it.

Actually thinking on it, a lot of the multiparters do follow some kind of Shakespearean archetype. City of Stone is clearly a Shakespearean tragedy, and Demona (even more than MacBeth) does fit what a Shakespearean tragic hero is. The Gathering feels more in the vein of the comedies. Dramatic things are happening and it's not superfluous or anything, but the events are portrayed in a very broad, comic way. With lots of misunderstandings and a sort of light, airy tone. We know Oberon isn't going to kill anyone, even after one appearance it's pretty clear he just wants his way. He's not a violent character. It's a custody battle, so the stakes don't feel as *severe*, despite being very high.

I don't know about Avalon, Awakening, or Hunter's Moon. I think Hunter's Moon is more of a modern revenge drama. Avalon feels more like something Arthurian or even classical Greek. An epic quest told over a lifetime (I guess the Magus's in this case). Like the Oddysey or something. Awakening is harder to place. I wanna say it's like a classical tragedy, but I feel like it doesn't necessarily follow all the beats and motifs exactly. I think Goliath is maybe too noble to be a Shakespearean tragic hero. Demona fits the mold better, but mostly retroactively. [/SPOILER]
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Mon, Aug 7, 2023 11:41:49 pm EDT from 70.27.163.9

Craig> Plus while there a plenty of older stuff from Marvel and DC Comics mainline I am eager to see reprinted, I like all the more to see other stuff getting reprinted for the first time.

Heck still plan to get the One Saturday Morning Adventures which has some Buzz Lightyear stories and even The New Adventures of Winnie the Pooh.
Antiyonder
posted @ Mon, Aug 7, 2023 11:30:18 pm EDT from 71.84.183.196

Todd > [SPOILER]
I very much suspect that Verity will not survive the current battle. That scene she had with Hudson in "The Reach" felt like it was telegraphing her death. If her death ends up being caused by Demona and Hyppolyta's unsanctioned intervention in the battle, it will cast a new light on Hudson's perception of Demona. He always seemed uneasy with her in "Long Way to Morning." I assumed this was simply because he overheard her trash-talking him to Goliath, but perhaps there's more to it.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Mon, Aug 7, 2023 11:21:15 pm EDT from 24.46.161.0

Oh, and I checked GargWiki, and found out that the migration from Castle Wyvern took place somewhere between 988 and 994 - thus after Goliath became Hudson's second-in-command (and, for that matter, after Hudson stepped down as leader). [SPOILER] Which means that LEfty was no longer second-in-command by then. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Aug 7, 2023 9:28:58 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

[SPOILER] I thought that Greg revealed years ago that Brooklyn would eventually step down as second-in-command in favor of Broadway because of his age. Even if it was actually someone's speculation, it was definitely years ago that I read it. But I thought it was official. [/SPOILER]
B
B
posted @ Mon, Aug 7, 2023 9:20:18 pm EDT from 74.74.246.146

It feels particularly appropriate that the next "Voices from the Eyrie" podcast will be on "Upgrade", given that [SPOILER] Jackal, Hyena, and Wolf are the adversaries in the latest "Gargoyles" issue, and that Brooklyn is facing leadership difficulties - which his becoming second-in-command in "Upgrade" was a step towards, and we've even been discussing the possibility that he'll step down as "second-in-command" once Goliath is freed [/SPOILER].

Also, with "Dark Ages" #2 coming out later this week, [SPOILER] a few thoughts about the new gargoyles introduced in this spin-off.

None of the four will be making it into the present-day, of course, but it struck me that three of them are unlikely to be casualties of the Wyvern Massacre; the evidence points to them being gone from Castle Wyvern (for one reason or another) by the time the Vikings captured it.

VERITY: Greg Weisman said that she died in 971. This is still canon-in-training, of course, but I can definitely see her as falling in battle during the events in "Dark Ages: Alliance" - maybe against Culen and his army, maybe against the mysterious adversary hinted at in the teasers for #3 and #4. It would make an effective "cost of war" moment - like the Magus's passing in "Avalon Part Three" - all the more so given what we've seen of her and Hudson's relationship in #1; they're clearly happily mated.

LEFTY: Currently Hudson's second-in-command. We know that Goliath held that position by 984, so something must have happened to Lefty between 971 and 984. Most likely he perished or was slain during the events of that period, though it's also possible that he was one of the group of Wyvern gargoyles - like Second and Sacrifice - who left Wyvern Hill (assuming it was before 984).

ANTIOPE: She wasn't with the trio in the 994 scenes. Of course, much of this was thanks to "she hadn't been dreamed up yet", but even then, the most likely in-story explanation is that she was no longer living in the castle by then. Something might have happened to her (say, that adventure in the cave mentioned in the description of #4), but it's also possible that she was another of the gargoyles that left Castle Wyvern to go elsewhere (which could mean a "Gargoyles" take on "childhood friend moves away").

That leaves Hyppolyta as the one "new gargoyle" likely to have perished in the sack of Castle Wyvern - and in fact, Greg's entry for that event in "This Day in Gargoyles Universe History" confirms it. (It's still canon-in-training as well, but I doubt that Greg's planning to change it.) [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Aug 7, 2023 8:53:14 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

I also get mine through Amazon.

Matt> It's strange, Dynamite's website is advertising their trade paper back, they have a price but no release date.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Mon, Aug 7, 2023 6:45:20 pm EDT from 64.85.245.77

Adam> I also pre-order them on Amazon. At about 11:05pm (Central Time) the night before release date, they download onto the Kindle app on my iPhone automatically.

I also order at least one physical copy from Things From Another World, but these take longer to arrive and I have no patience for that, so digital suffices until they arrive. I prefer the physical copies.

Any idea if the Trade Paperback will be full size? Always bums me out that the SLG comic paperbacks were a smaller format. I'm hoping this won't be the case with the Dynamite books. It'd be especially awesome if the SLG books are re-released in full size!
Matt
"I have one absolute rule: No gargoyle left behind. Period." - Brooklyn, "Render Unto Caesar"
posted @ Mon, Aug 7, 2023 5:58:01 pm EDT from 47.233.90.133

Adam > I’ve been getting them digitally on Amazon.

Antiyonder > I’m very excited for that next volume of Disney Afternoon Adventures. As I’ve said before, one of my biggest draws with these issues has been Gummi Bears comics, something that had not been present in American comics when I was a kid. It’s very cool to see them getting their due, even if some of the stories are a little silly.

Bishansky > Good to hear you’ve got a backlog of shows ready to go! “The Price” is maybe my favorite episode. Great Asner and Frakes performances, great Reaves writing, great WD Japan animation. Very excited for that discussion!
Craig
posted @ Mon, Aug 7, 2023 5:18:39 pm EDT from 166.199.98.102

Quick question - for those who buy the comics digital, where do you buy them from? Although I have been buying from my comic shop (I have been buying 2 of every issue), I would like to start getting them digital, and I can't seem to find where on the Dynamite website.

Thanks for your help.
Adam
posted @ Mon, Aug 7, 2023 5:06:09 pm EDT from 208.87.237.201

Sorry for the double post, but I've now read #8 of "Gargoyles". This is more a few thoughts I've had on it than a proper review.

[SPOILER] I was spoiled, of course, on Jackal and Hyena assisting Wolf in his break-in, but I was expecting it anyway. With the mention of security stepped up after Brooklyn's attempt to break Goliath out, it would make sense for Wolf to get some help - and Jackal and Hyena would be as enthusiastic about going after Goliath as he was. (We even see Jackal fantasizing about "reshaping" Goliath in stone sleep again, in a callback to "The Green".)

I was amused by Dracon's "Broadway" remark; he was obviously referring to the original Broadway, but given that that particular gargoyle is the one whom he's encountered the most frequently....

I felt impressed with Slaughter recognizing that someone's playing the various organized crime factions against each other, and look forward to seeing where this leads.

I liked Coldfire's theory on why she and Coldstone had no afterlife memories (established - at least, for Coldstone - in "Re-Awakening").

Of course, the big moment is Goliath's grand heroic act of rescuing Tony Dracon, Brod, and the security guard who enjoyed tormenting him from the Pack - a definite case of "Gargoyles protect" - followed by his refusal to escape. I'm looking forward to how his "night in court" goes (and was amused by how they handled the "next issue" part at the end). [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Aug 7, 2023 9:15:46 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

The Emperor Octavian, called the August,
I being his favorite, bestowed his name
Upon me, and I hold it still in trust,
In memory of him and of his fame.
I am the Virgin, and my vestal flame
Burns less intensely than the Lion's rage;
Sheaves are my only garlands, and I claim
The golden Harvests as my heritage.

"The Poet's Calendar", Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Aug 7, 2023 8:30:40 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

Quite irritatingly, my copy of Gargoyles #7 on kindle is still showing up as an error.

I don't think I ever saw the corrected first page either.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Mon, Aug 7, 2023 4:52:44 am EDT from 70.27.163.9

Starting with announcing that Volume 4 of the Disney Afternoon Adventures is due next year: https://www.amazon.com/Adventures-Gummi-Bears-Beginning-Afternoon/dp/1683969200/
Antiyonder
posted @ Mon, Aug 7, 2023 3:13:00 am EDT from 71.84.183.196