Besides racism being a problem that has been underestimated by some, we have it being a thing cause skin color or nationality alone is treated as a cause for alarm (Also find it funnier when people claim the early years of the 1900s for example weren't so easily offended or bothered by something when racism is ironically a form of oversensitivity).

So yeah people being unsure about gargoyles even when seeing examples to feel otherwise makes sense.

Arguably discrimination as a whole can in part be attributed to complacency with any progress made and I bet some by 2198 whether human or gargoyle would presume things to be better than they are.
Antiyonder
posted @ Sun, Oct 15, 2023 7:22:34 pm EDT from 107.77.205.228

Blaise > I recall Greg talking about how some moments of characters talking to themselves on the show (such as that moment in "M.I.A.") were a result of not wanting to do voiceover/internal monologue at the time (aside from Bluestone in "Revelations" for genre purposes). I wonder if he'd feel differently about using narration if he were making those episodes now, or if it's more a matter of differences between the two media (narration being a very common and widely accepted comic book device, whereas in TV/movie circles it is looked at by some as a crutch--"telling instead of showing").

I get what you're saying about the narration in Bad Guys feeling different, as it was mostly just a couple of moments per issue at most. Although SLG Gargoyles #12 really does have a LOT of internal monologue, probably even more than the Dynamite issues. The first 7 pages are basically wall-to-wall internal thoughts, first from Goliath and then from Brooklyn...but the device then disappears until returning in the last couple of pages.

Interesting point about the "before sundown" line. I hadn't registered that, and don't recall anyone else mentioning it. I mean, technically, it WAS before sundown...way before. ;) Perhaps since the gargoyles are essentially unconscious throughout the day, completely unaware of their surroundings, "before sunrise" and "before sunset" are interchangeable?

Great observations, re: the various clan members' perspectives on the rookery and how much attention/protection is warranted. Not much to add, except that in addition to "Gnash is just a kid who could care less," there might also be some degree of jealousy there. It's a very common thing in firstborn human kids to fear being displaced when mom becomes pregnant with #2. Gnash has been an only child for all his life, so he might feel threatened by the egg on some level. It's also interesting that Bronx and Fu-Dog seem to essentially live in the rookery (or at least, we pretty much never see them anywhere else, aside from a brief one-panel appearance by Bronx in #5).
Craig
posted @ Sun, Oct 15, 2023 3:41:09 pm EDT from 24.46.160.126

TODD> "I remember one or two arguments made in the Comment Room that the public's response to the gargoyles being real would have more likely been curiosity (complete with tourists flocking to New York to get a glimpse of them) than fear or armed hostility. I think that a crucial point is that the gargoyles were seen as scary, predatory creatures, meaning that the public would respond much the same way as if a pack of mountain lions were roaming around the neighborhood. Of course, one challenge in discussing the likely reaction is that we don't have a full real-life counterpart to the gargoyles - an intelligent (intelligent enough to understand human languages and converse in them, even able to read human literature and comprehend it) non-human species. There are part-analogues - human minority groups, for example, or maligned animal predators - but not full counterparts."

I think the answer is, and I remember saying it to this person, that these would all be reactions. He wanted to limit what the reactions were based on his perception of the world. And, like I said, based on current events I wish we were living in the world as he perceived it. Alas, we're not... and I don't think we were even then.

BLAISE> " I like the hypothesis on Thailog’s motivations for wanting the kid. Doesn't mean he knows what he's getting himself into, though."

As if Thailog wouldn't arrange for a nanny to do most of the heavy lifting. LOL

BLAISE> "All I know is that I miss the “new look” she had, although I would have preferred it if it had been more consistently on-model (i.e., if the collar didn’t keep vanishing!)."

Oh, don't get me started. I love that outfit... when it was ON MODEL! But, well... the classic outfit has its charm and at least they'll keep it on model. I'm still trying to head canon an in-universe reason for the changes between outfits.

"This is interesting: the “Spectacular Spider-Man/Gargoyles” radio play had Dominic definitely dotty, but it seems to be an act here."

Hence Greg saying they're larks and shouldn't be taken seriously... even if some elements will make their way into canon. Maybe. Hmm, Dark Ages #2?
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Sun, Oct 15, 2023 10:35:26 am EDT from 67.189.167.107

The Rookery> I think it being intact actually explains WHY there is a big chunk of rock underneath the Castle as part of the Eyrie Building. I imagine that Demona wanted the Rookery. She told Xanatos that the Rookery must be included (since it is part of the Castle) in order to break the Sleep Spell. And therefore, Xanatos had to include a huge chunk of rock below the Castle in his design plans that he otherwise would've likely left off for cost and engineering reasons.
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"
posted @ Sun, Oct 15, 2023 9:54:02 am EDT from 47.233.90.133

BLAISE - Thanks for your next review.

I remember being surprised about the rookery's presence (even though we'd seen the big chunk of rock beneath the castle), since I'd gotten the impression from "Shadows of the Past" that it had been left behind when the castle was moved to Manhattan. I suspect now that that must have been an animation error. We'll probably find out more when "Voices From the Eyrie" reaches that episode.

I've thought for a while that the rival organized crime families must have responded to Antoinette's name with "Don't tempt us" - though then reflecting that guillotines aren't that suited to gang warfare.

All the build-up talk about Dino Dracon in the first three issues, before his formal on-stage introduction, reminded me of Greg Weisman's comments on how he had the Hunter introduced in "City of Stone" the same way - and how he based it on the introduction of the title character in the comic strip "Steve Canyon".
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sun, Oct 15, 2023 8:59:25 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

****There is the sound of squeaky chair casters as Blaise rolls into the room in a computer chair. There is a black cat draped over his shoulder, snoozing.****
Yeah, my cat likes to do this. It's cute, but it can make typing difficult.

CRAIG> There was some precedent for hearing the thoughts of characters in the series, as well (Goliath, in M.I.A.), but for the most part they just talked to themselves. I’m not judging--I do that all the time (or at least I would if people didn’t look at me funny ;-)). As for the narration in "Bad Guys"...it still feels a bit different now, if that makes sense.

TODD JENSEN> I like the hypothesis on Thailog’s motivations for wanting the kid. Doesn't mean he knows what he's getting himself into, though.

MATT> I would love that, too. Or even a real conversation between Katana and Angela. Or Elisa. Of course, there are only so many pages and a HUGE cast (bigger than the series would normally have). We might have to be patient.

GREG BISHANSKY> “I've been enjoying these narrations, I don't get the complaints I've seen that the issues aren't focused on the characters we're getting POVs of. But I'm here for them, nice to see their thought processes.”

Likewise. I’ll probably have more to say on that when I get to Issue 8, “Mayday”, and Coldfire.

IDYLL OR NIGHTMARE> Angela performs narration this time, and I guess now’s as good a time as any to talk about her re-redesign. So, the preview pages done by Kambadais showed Angela in the two-piece outfit that she wore during the SLG run (plus-or-minus the collar), but the finished pages have her back in the old one-piece outfit. Greg Weisman gave his reasons for the change to the two-piece back in the SLG days (the Doylist reasons including showing she’s more grown up "as she embarked on a more adult relationship with Broadway," and to evoke her mother’s dress sense and what that might imply), but the reasons for the switch back appear to be “Because Disney demanded it.” This surprised me and left me wondering why that would be the case. Was Disney going to change Demona’s wardrobe to be more conservative? (The answer is “no, they were not.”) What about other Disney characters with bare mid-riffs (Ariel, Jasmine, Kida…)? (Still the same, as far as I can tell.) Maybe they just wanted her to look exactly like she did on the show. I don’t know. All I know is that I miss the “new look” she had, although I would have preferred it if it had been more consistently on-model (i.e., if the collar didn’t keep vanishing!). Anyway, enough of that: on with the show!

I love the narration (especially the bit about her mother, “in all her rage”), we get a title drop early, and Angela seems to have inherited some of Goliath’s propensity for drama (the “we live again!” bit). Upon waking, Angela’s response to Broadway’s “Wonder what we missed today” is that since Brooklyn and Katana went to check the Rookery “before sundown” (is...that line an error and should have been “sunup”?) they “should see if anything happened down there.” On my re-read, this struck me. Brooklyn and Katana were headed there before sunrise anyway, we’ll see that it’s well guarded, and even Hudson indicates that “in the old days” they didn’t “hover” over the eggs. And from his and Gnash’s reactions, the clan’s checking on the Rookery seems like a fairly frequent occurrence. I buy Hudson’s statement that this is unusual behavior, but I also understand why it would be happening. For Angela, this is the first gargoyle egg in her life, and both her and Broadway might be...thinking about the future, let’s say. In addition, as he says on the next page, for Broadway it’s the first time he’s seen an egg in a while (since before the Massacre). For Goliath, who missed seeing Angela hatch and grow up, this might represent something lost. And for Brooklyn and Katana, this is more stability than they’ve had in decades--during which they probably never let an egg out of arm’s reach--so it’s not surprising they would want to check on their egg more often than Hudson’s “normal.” Since Hudson’s already seen multiple hatchings and Gnash is a kid who almost couldn't care less, they’re off to other pursuits (it’s cute that they’ve bonded over Celebrity Hockey). Lex, though, also seems to want to do something else. There’s no indication at the moment that it’s chatting with Staghart online, though we all know he’s doing that these nights (good for him!). He also comes off as more taciturn (even sulky) here to me, so it feels like something’s eating at him, but he doesn’t seem to want to talk about it. I look forward to the Trio clearing the air (which might happen before I'm done with my backlog of rambles).

We get our first name drops of Xanatos and Demona, and once again I ponder what new readers might think. Angela does identify Demona as her mother, seen during the dream panels, but anyone who doesn’t know Xanatos will have to wait until he shows up at the end. Of course, if I’m being honest, I think this comic’s main audience is fans old and new so...this is just whetting the appetite. The revelation of the Rookery is interesting. I mean, that was A LOT of ground included with the castle on top of the Eyrie, so I’m not surprised some of the caves came along with. And it makes sense for Demona to want to have one. Still feels a little surprising to me for some reason. Maybe because its existence just never occurred to me.

Bronx and Fu-Dog! The only members of the clan who did NOT appear in the first issue (except for some of the covers). Good to see them here. And speaking of still adjusting to no longer time-traveling, Fu-Dog still needs to be reminded who is part of his clan now. He seems to have accepted Bronx readily enough, though (“Okay, he’s cool, but the rest of you are on probation!”). Actually, Katana also seems a bit formal with her new clan, but that might just be how she speaks. We get some dialogue about “Eggwardo’s” name (I’ve been waiting for this!) that lands Brooklyn in some hot water (although, Brook, seeing as how it’s been four months before anyone thought to ask Katana about it, you are *insanely* lucky). I love this interaction between Katana and Brooklyn, and it looks to me like Brooklyn is still smiling in the last panel. It also gives insight into how he and Katana name their children--they apparently wait to “get a feel” for the child before naming them. I don’t know what that feel is, but it does indicate another way in which, while they’ve adopted naming, they still do it differently than the humans around them.

Coldfire comes in with news that they may be in time to see the birth of Maggie’s baby, but only Goliath, Angela, Broadway and Coldfire head off to attend. I must admit, for how much of a part Brooklyn played in the Mutate subplot during the show, I found it a bit surprising he will have nothing to do with the rest of this...episode. Of course, he is a 40-years older family gargoyle by this point, and the cast is plenty packed as it is, so...yeah.

After the reveal of every human and mutate at the labyrinth unconscious (shock!), we cut to the Gangland story. Nice to meet Antoinette Dracon--I don’t blame her for insisting that no one call her Toni. Actually, she seems to have a thing with formal names, calling Pal Joey “Joseph” and insisting that D.D. be called Dominic Dracon. Of course, then she switches back to Joey when telling him to get the car and calls Dominic Pop-Pop. But wait! A wild Travis Marsall appears, along with a camera person whose design is so unique I wasn’t surprised when this turned out to be the “new character” Greg Weisman mentioned in the Voices from the Eyrie podcast. Looking forward to seeing more of her. Antoinette and Dominic manage to duck the press with a “dotty old man” act, although Dominic doesn’t like doing it. This is interesting: the “Spectacular Spider-Man/Gargoyles” radio play had Dominic definitely dotty, but it seems to be an act here. Everyone in the car is concerned about the impending release of Dino (more build-up) and Antoinette gets to invoke Angela from Turf here (love it!).

We now get a very interesting page where we must infer what’s happening without dialogue...wait...a printing error? The page was supposed to have dialogue? (Yet another reason I was waiting for the trade.) At least Greg was able to tweet the pages as they were supposed to be, with all the dialogue, the red cross on Mary’s head-wear, and Angela in her two-piece outfit (c’mon Disney, the world wouldn’t have ended!). Speaking of Mary: here appearance surprised me. We were teased with her and Finella back in “Bash”, but I hadn’t expected to see her this soon (relatively speaking) and in this way. Apparently, she was a mid-wife back in the day. And not only does she name-drop Brooklyn (again, weird for me he’s not here), but it seems like she knows Shari as well. Well, now I’ve got to wait for those stories.
(What’s really funny to me, though, is that this, modern Mary, is VERY similar to something Christine Morgan did in her fanfics, bringing Finella and Mary to the modern day (or first the 1970’s and then taking the slow road). The Gargoyles Collective Unconscious strikes again!)
At any rate, she and Dr. Sato are there for the delivery and Elisa sends a message to Coldfire, who is recharging alongside Coldstone while Owen hovers about. And hi there, Erin and Benny! From their dialogue, it sounds like Goliath sometimes takes the kids flying (or at least, they want him to). Again, it’s been four months since we last saw the clan (in their time, a LOT more time has passed for us), so I’m not surprised some things have happened that we don’t know about. It’s cute if he actually does sometimes take the kids flying. But now the Labyrinth is invaded with knockout gas and, when that doesn’t work on Elisa, a club. I can’t be sure, but it looks like there’s at least two or three people, and I’d bet one of them’s Sevarius. Wonder who else Thailog hired?

So, this is 3 times Thailog’s invaded the Labyrinth, and possibly the second time for Sevarius. And it’s never the same way: first Thailog came in through the ceiling above the cells, then through the front door (banking on his having Goliath’s silhouette to get him in), and this time it’s a daytime raid he’s not even awake for, let alone physically present. In Sevarius’s case, the last time he came in he was in disguise. Talon’s got to be getting pretty paranoid by now:
AL: Hey Boss-Cat, someone left a box of donuts outside the door.
TALON: Oh, did they? I’M ON TO YOU! *electric blasts box to smithereens*
[Later, at Nightstone]
SHARI: Did you really send a regular box of donuts to the Labyrinth?
THAILOG: Yes.
SHARI: Why?
THAILOG: I just felt like f---ing with them.

Talon notices Maggie is missing and is, predictably, going crazy. Shari points out that Mary is missing, too, which means Maggie is probably safe. I find it interesting that Shari is the one to point this out. I wonder if she feels the need to say this and not just for the purpose of maintaining her cover. She’s a 9 Illuminatus, so she’s definitely shady, but I wonder if this is an “Everyone has Standards” moment. Our Heroes(tm) determine they must rescue Maggie (and Mary) and brainstorm who could have known about the birth and been willing to do the abduction.

Meanwhile, Antoinette visits Tony in prison. Presumably they paid someone off so they can talk through the visiting phones without being recorded/listened to since Antoinette tells Tony that Dominic is “as sharp as ever.” (Love the “how many marbles” line.) Once again, the specter of Dino Dracon looms large, with Tony hoping Glasses and Dominic can do something to “contain” Dino or “Manhattan burns.” OK, yeah, I’m interested.

Cut to Nightstone Unlimited where Mary and Maggie are waking up to their captors and...Mary has come so far since “Awakening”! She immediately shuts down Sevarius, and when he stammers and calls in Brentwood she just shoves the clone aside! “Why are ye dressed like a mad scientist?!”--wow, Mary, called it in one. But the “comic relief” ends when Thailog shows up. The look on Mary’s face…she knows she can’t browbeat this one. How strange it must be to see a gargoyle so like Goliath, but very much not.

Unfortunately, Our Heroes(tm) have come to the consensus that Xanatos must be the guilty party because Owen was around when Coldfire received Elisa’s message. Considering the history Xanatos has with...well, everyone involved, it’s not surprising they jumped to this conclusion. Of course, the real question is, how long after Elisa’s call to Coldfire did the invaders arrive? From the comic, it looks like they came *right* after. That being the case, a moment’s thought about the timeline of events would indicate that Xanatos couldn’t have been responsible unless A) he already knew about the birth and had guys waiting right there who could go in THAT second, or B) he’s got another Pheonix Gate or similar item to use. Still, we come to our cliffhanger of Talon threatening Xanatos with death (and I’m pretty sure this actually counts as a cliffhanger).


OK. I'll try to write up my thoughts on number three tomorrow (though, given it's Sunday, I may wait until the Room rolls over before I post). Later!
****The cat wakes and hops to the floor. It moves a few feet before turning to look at Blaise and giving an expectant "meow." Blaise sighs and rolls his chair after the cat. They enter a shadow and vanish.****
Blaise
"Somedays you're the pigeon, somedays you're the statue."
posted @ Sun, Oct 15, 2023 1:22:48 am EDT from 45.48.54.221

BISHANSKY - [Tell me about it. I remember in the late 90s and the 00's the debates on whether the Quarrymen were an outdated concept and whether such a movement would happen in a "post civil rights America" ... some of the responses were incredibly naïve, I think. One of these people, at the Montreal Gathering in 2004 confronted Greg Weisman about how unrealistic he believed the comment was, and Greg responded with "does the Ku Klux Klan still exist?" and well... here we are in 2023 and look at the state of things.]

I remember one or two arguments made in the Comment Room that the public's response to the gargoyles being real would have more likely been curiosity (complete with tourists flocking to New York to get a glimpse of them) than fear or armed hostility. I think that a crucial point is that the gargoyles were seen as scary, predatory creatures, meaning that the public would respond much the same way as if a pack of mountain lions were roaming around the neighborhood. Of course, one challenge in discussing the likely reaction is that we don't have a full real-life counterpart to the gargoyles - an intelligent (intelligent enough to understand human languages and converse in them, even able to read human literature and comprehend it) non-human species. There are part-analogues - human minority groups, for example, or maligned animal predators - but not full counterparts.

One other thought I have on "Avalon Part One": the scene where Princess Katharine dubs Tom "Guardian of the Eggs" reminds me a bit of the part at the end of T. H. White's "The Sword in the Stone" where King Arthur knights another young boy named Tom, charging him to keep the memory of Camelot and the Round Table alive.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Oct 14, 2023 10:59:43 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

BLAISE> "****With a beating of wings, a cardinal flies into the room. It lands and morphs into Blaise.****
Glad to know the entrances and exits are still welcome. Given life nowadays, though, it may sometimes be something simple like "Blaise materializes" or "Blaise vanishes" or...this."

I missed those. Keep 'em coming.

"So we begin with something a little uncommon for the series: first person narration. Before this, Matt Bluestone in “Revelations” was the only one who got to do this, but now it’s Elisa. This is actually kind of fun and fitting: in the Marvel comic run that was meant to supplement the main series, most of the caption narration was done by Elisa (as excerpts from her journal), so it strikes me as very appropriate that she’s the first POV we get in the new comic. As we will see, this will be a running theme for the “Here in Manhattan” storyline: each member of the clan having a “spotlight” issue. I don’t know if that will continue into the next arc (confirmed that there is one!), but I’m here for it regardless."

I've been enjoying these narrations, I don't get the complaints I've seen that the issues aren't focused on the characters we're getting POVs of. But I'm here for them, nice to see their thought processes.

"George Kambadais’s art is pretty darn good (much better than Hedgecock’s, if I may be completely honest)."

Oh don't get me started.

"And Nashville *really* prefers to be called Gnash. Okay, fair enough."

Sometimes I wonder if we should re-title his GargWiki entry "Gnash".

"So we now turn to the gang war. I guess, of all the people we saw behind bars at the end of “Turf”, only Tony and Brod stayed there."

Ditto "Protection", Tony is taken into custody with the rest of the gang but Glasses and Pal Joey are out by "Turf".

"Elisa’s quiet comment about humanity’s tendency towards “sectarianism” and “scapegoating” certainly feels like it’s gotten more relevant since 1997."

Tell me about it. I remember in the late 90s and the 00's the debates on whether the Quarrymen were an outdated concept and whether such a movement would happen in a "post civil rights America" ... some of the responses were incredibly naïve, I think. One of these people, at the Montreal Gathering in 2004 confronted Greg Weisman about how unrealistic he believed the comment was, and Greg responded with "does the Ku Klux Klan still exist?" and well... here we are in 2023 and look at the state of things.

"News for Tony: his grandpa Dominic is getting out, and his uncle as well. But, as Brod points out, he is not happy."

Looking forward to your thoughts about where all of that is going.

"Down to the Labyrinth and the plot thread we left dangling about 14 years ago (*insert sobbing here*)."

The Alesand quote in Matt's signature is so appropriate.

"Speaking of: naturally he’s the first baddie we encounter in this storyline, and he is interested in taking the child for himself. Thailog, dude, I just want to point out: you’re, like, 2 years old still. Raising a kid is different from growing a clone. Just sayin’."

But he is so advanced... LOL

"Sunrise comes, and with it a book end of Goliath and Elisa’s first words to each other (they began with her saying “Missed you,” and him replying “And I, you,” and they end with her saying “I’ll miss you,” and him replying “And I, you.”). I didn’t notice this the first time I read this. It’s a nice touch."

I didn't catch this either, nice!

"Elisa gives another title drop when she says, “…and *here in Manhattan*, things aren’t nearly as crazy during the day. So, no worries…” Oh, Elisa…you should know better than to tempt fate."

Somewhere on Avalon, Luna is smirking.

"The biggest feeling this issue gave me was a sense of homecoming. This was something we had waited years for, and it finally came. So happy it’s here!"

Like I said, it felt like reuniting with old friends.

"(And for the record: yes, pretty much every issue’s ramble will probably be about this long and practically detailed to the page.)"

That makes me happy.

ED> "Quest: Awesome to have a big Demona story but it feels an oddly low-key way to frame such massive news. A big Demona arc without a Demona cover to launch, the next arc billed as a "mini-series" and a "spin-off". I'm sad to lose George Kambadais (and looks like Drew Moss has a new gig too) but Dynamite have been great at finding artists and hopefully this will continue. Mini-series could mean up to 12 issues and I hope this is -- partly to be consistent with Clan-Building and HiM but also a "City of Stone" size Demona story for the anniversary would be incredible."

Hopefully we'll have some clarification on things soon. But the impression I am under, it's not a spin-off starring Demona. It's a "Gargoyles" story where she's a focal point... a major arc where she's the villain. Considering modern comics, I feel like it might be an event story... only its not hijacking twenty other books and derailing other writers.

"Voices 40: Some terrific insights from Karine on this one - hope she returns soon and often."

So do I.

"I've thought a lot over the last year about Greg's observation ages ago that he'd have loved to spin off Mary and Finella so it was fun to hear it discussed."

I'd watch it!
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Sat, Oct 14, 2023 6:05:50 pm EDT from 67.189.167.107

Even 10 months later, I'm not sure I noticed the "Miss you" bookends until Blaise mentioned it. I'll have to go back and look at that again.

Blaise's thoughts on Coldfire (quickly growing to be one of my fave characters) and Katana got me thinking that I'd love to see more interaction between members of the Manhattan Clan that have never interacted on screen yet. Like what is the relationship between Coldstone/Coldfire and Gnash/Katana for instance? I guess we got Katana reassuring FuDog that Coldfire was clan, but that's not much to go on.
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"
posted @ Sat, Oct 14, 2023 9:29:32 am EDT from 47.233.90.133

Thanks for the review, Blaise. I enjoyed reading it, and look forward to the rest of your reviews on the series.

On Thailog being after Derek and Maggie's child: I saw that as another example of his "up-onemanship" towards his fathers. Goliath has Angela, Xanatos has Alex - it seemed natural that Thailog would be after a child (and an unusual one at that - the offspring of two Mutates) as a result.

And that was a good observation (which I hadn't noticed before) about the unexpected consequences of Coldfire's intervention on the Jogger.

ED - Good point on the rather low-key announcement of "Gargoyle Quest". I'm hoping we get more information about it.

"Pendragon" would have the advantage of being based on a very famous legendary figure with his own fan following (which does intersect with that of "Gargoyles", of course), though I agree that it's not likely to be near the top of Dynamite's wish list.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Oct 14, 2023 8:46:22 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

Great to see you back, Blaise! Great review - especially great catch about the symmetry of Elisa/Goliath's lines.

Quest: Awesome to have a big Demona story but it feels an oddly low-key way to frame such massive news. A big Demona arc without a Demona cover to launch, the next arc billed as a "mini-series" and a "spin-off". I'm sad to lose George Kambadais (and looks like Drew Moss has a new gig too) but Dynamite have been great at finding artists and hopefully this will continue. Mini-series could mean up to 12 issues and I hope this is -- partly to be consistent with Clan-Building and HiM but also a "City of Stone" size Demona story for the anniversary would be incredible.

Voices 40: Some terrific insights from Karine on this one - hope she returns soon and often. I've thought a lot over the last year about Greg's observation ages ago that he'd have loved to spin off Mary and Finella so it was fun to hear it discussed.

It's interesting that, prior to the Dynamite books, the notion that spin-offs benefitting from being gargoyle-centric wasn't something that was much mentioned and of course only three of the spin-offs focus primarily on gargoyles as opposed to gargoyles being part of a wider ensemble. I wonder if this reflects the current perspective of Dynamite and Disney and what that implies for, hopefully, future spin-offs. I do think that 'Timedancer' prequel to "Awakening" sounds like such a slam-dunk anniversary story that I'll be astonished if any other spin-off is announced next year. As much as Dynamite loves a villains book, I can see that Yama isn't going to thrill them as much as Demona while 'Pendragon' has a marquee appeal generally but not so much in a 'Gargoyles' context and I'm not optimistic for poor Rory and Molly.

Incidentally...

65 episodes
18 SLG comics
12 Dynamite comics to date

It's likely, depending where the schedule shakes out, that either GARGOYLES #11 or (probably) DARK AGES #5 will be the 100th canon instalment of 'Gargoyles'!
Ed
posted @ Sat, Oct 14, 2023 4:47:56 am EDT from 86.157.145.210

Blaise > Great thoughts. A lot to respond to, and it's too late to go in-depth, but a few things...

I can't believe it's been almost a year since this first issue was released! Your observations really brought me back to my first impressions.

There was a bit of narration/internal monologue in the SLG run as well. In Bad Guys: Yama, Dingo and Hunter in #2; Hunter in #3; Fang in #4. In Gargoyles proper (expressed as thought balloons rather than captions): Brooklyn in #11; and extensively, Goliath and Brooklyn in #12.

Kambadais's artwork on the humans was the diciest aspect to begin with, but has greatly improved. Whereas he nailed the gargoyles (and Elisa) from the jump. I'm really sad to lose him for the Quest arc, but hope he gets to return to the series eventually.
Craig
posted @ Sat, Oct 14, 2023 2:00:38 am EDT from 24.46.162.35

****With a beating of wings, a cardinal flies into the room. It lands and morphs into Blaise.****
Glad to know the entrances and exits are still welcome. Given life nowadays, though, it may sometimes be something simple like "Blaise materializes" or "Blaise vanishes" or...this.

I'd actually written my thoughts down on Issue 1, "A Little Crazy" some weeks back in preparation to return. Better late than never:

A LITTLE CRAZY> So we begin with something a little uncommon for the series: first person narration. Before this, Matt Bluestone in “Revelations” was the only one who got to do this, but now it’s Elisa. This is actually kind of fun and fitting: in the Marvel comic run that was meant to supplement the main series, most of the caption narration was done by Elisa (as excerpts from her journal), so it strikes me as very appropriate that she’s the first POV we get in the new comic. As we will see, this will be a running theme for the “Here in Manhattan” storyline: each member of the clan having a “spotlight” issue. I don’t know if that will continue into the next arc (confirmed that there is one!), but I’m here for it regardless.

George Kambadais’s art is pretty darn good (much better than Hedgecock’s, if I may be completely honest). If I have a criticism, it is that sometimes characters look a bit “off-model” to me. The ATM bandits are, of course, the recurring muggers from the series, but I second-guessed myself for a bit because their leader (the one voiced by Keith David) looks *way* younger here than I am used to. And Matt seems to have gotten a very close haircut. Still, overall, I like it.

I really love Angela’s indignant “I am neither a ‘dude’ nor a ‘man.’ Not in any sense of the words.” As well as Lex’s “Now, I’m drivin’ here!” Good to see Morgan again, too (glad they fixed his hair color from the preview and he did not go grey overnight).

Now we have the “for those just joining us section” where Elisa touches on the backstory (with the same words from the opening we know so well) and the roll call of the current Manhattan Clan make-up. So happy that Elisa refers to Goliath as her boyfriend (or “kinda” her boyfriend, anyway). The kiss and hair touching are nice, too.
Poor Brooklyn, he makes a simple joke and folks practically jump on him for it (been there, dude). Nice to finally “hear” Katana and see her and Brook’s interaction. And Nashville *really* prefers to be called Gnash. Okay, fair enough. Elisa (and Greg) take this time to also highlight that Elisa views her relationship with Angela as “like sisters”--something those of us who follow Ask Greg know well, but I feel like it’s good to just state it out loud in the canon. We get the beginning of the Trio’s troubles, as it were: Broadway is with Angela, Brooklyn has his family, I guess it’s no surprise Lex gives them both a bit of stink-eye (which Elisa notices). Love the double “no” answer to Gnash’s request to go on patrol. One more thing I’ll note: Brooklyn and Katana are both carrying far less weaponry than their last appearance. Makes sense, what with them no longer having to be ready to go at a moment’s notice; they can store most of their armaments at the castle. Brooklyn can just go patrolling with (what looks like) the handgun and a katana and leave the broadsword and shoulder rifle in whatever passes for their armory.

Beepers. I remember those.

So we now turn to the gang war. I guess, of all the people we saw behind bars at the end of “Turf”, only Tony and Brod stayed there. Everyone else got out and started fighting again, although the dialogue indicates that there are now more than just these two factions. Good eyes on everyone who recognized the jogger and the paramedics from “Deadly Force.” I was a little surprised that Jack Dane was referred to as “consigliere” as I tend to associate that term more with the Mafia (blame “The Godfather” for that), but then again if Jack was a part of that world before turning on the Dracon family then that would be the sort of title he would give himself anyway.

Coldstone and Coldfire arrive (and it does look like Owen’s left thumb is holding the tray, but oh well—the series was no stranger to animation gaffes, anyway). Coldstone displays some of the “f--- the humans” mentality he had in the “Reawakening” flashback, and Coldfire gently chides him for it, so that pretty well establishes where their heads are at right now. Coldfire says she tried to mitigate damage by setting the fire (because Dane and Glasses prioritize taking the other gang out more than the gargoyles—I kind of have to laugh at that), but we saw that doing so actually wound up injuring the jogger. I think this highlights how Coldfire (and Coldstone, too) still thinks like a 10th century warrior, moreso than most other members of the clan. The idea of an innocent bystander out at night near a battle would probably be unthinkable to them. Coldstone brings up a good question about the wisdom of hiding from the regular humans and only revealing themselves to the “scum,” and Elisa’s quiet comment about humanity’s tendency towards “sectarianism” and “scapegoating” certainly feels like it’s gotten more relevant since 1997. Her comments prompt Coldstone to ask the big “Why do we do it” and Goliath gives the “hero’s answer” (along with quoting the “No more stop protecting the castle…” axiom): it is the right thing to do. Also, it will give time for humanity to get used to them (I guess), and in the meantime they will use their “legend to bedevil Manhattan’s miscreants” he says while giving an almost sinister smile and unknowingly quoting Batman. I love Elisa pointing that out and Goliath being completely clueless (one more piece of pop-culture to introduce to him).

News for Tony: his grandpa Dominic is getting out, and his uncle as well. But, as Brod points out, he is not happy.

Oh, hi Margot and Brendan. You two are walking arm in arm but look concerned. Is it just the neighborhood?

Down to the Labyrinth and the plot thread we left dangling about 14 years ago (*insert sobbing here*). Talon and Maggie are about to be parents and it looks like the baby is coming ASAP. Elisa’s narration here is interesting because not only does it breezily introduce the mutates, homeless underground and the gargoyle clones (“more on them later”), but it very definitely does *not* mention Xanatos as the “evil megalomaniac” or Servarius as his “personal mad scientist.” In fact, among all the info-dumping Elisa does in this comic, there’s a lot that’s saved for later: the clan’s current living situation, the name of that guy with the glasses who hands her the phone (Owen), the name of the guy talking to Talon (Al), the goth-girl in the labyrinth (Shari), etc. I actually find it really fascinating and a little fun to wonder how new folks might react to this. I’ve perused a few reviews that refer to Thailog as “a shadowy gargoyle.”
Speaking of: naturally he’s the first baddie we encounter in this storyline, and he is interested in taking the child for himself. Thailog, dude, I just want to point out: you’re, like, 2 years old still. Raising a kid is different from growing a clone. Just sayin’.

As others have pointed out, I love the symmetry of Thailog’s *totally* sinister smile with the one Goliath gave a few pages back.

I agree with Al, Talon: it’s great you called your sister but PRIORITIES man!

Another character model oddity: I did a double take with Sevarius here as he looked more like Matt to me. Oh well, I know the models get better as the series goes on.

Sunrise comes, and with it a book end of Goliath and Elisa’s first words to each other (they began with her saying “Missed you,” and him replying “And I, you,” and they end with her saying “I’ll miss you,” and him replying “And I, you.”). I didn’t notice this the first time I read this. It’s a nice touch.

Elisa gives another title drop when she says, “…and *here in Manhattan*, things aren’t nearly as crazy during the day. So, no worries…” Oh, Elisa…you should know better than to tempt fate.

The biggest feeling this issue gave me was a sense of homecoming. This was something we had waited years for, and it finally came. So happy it’s here!

(And for the record: yes, pretty much every issue’s ramble will probably be about this long and practically detailed to the page.)


I'll see if I can at least wrap up the first mini-arc with issues 2 and 3 this weekend. After that...eh, rambles of the past comics will probably be mixed in with those coming out in the next few weeks. Still, it's great to be back!

****Blaise turns and vanishes with a thunderclap.****
Blaise
"Somedays you're the pigeon, somedays you're the statue."
posted @ Sat, Oct 14, 2023 12:35:19 am EDT from 45.48.54.221

Welcome back Blaise! Your reappearance is one more way these days are feeling more and more like the good ole days. But, I suppose, the good ole days are back again!

I'd say to throw spoiler tags on anything released in the last 2-3 weeks or so. Certainly, anything a few months old is fair game.

And I've always loved your entrances and exits! It's as signature as our avatar and text colors!
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"
posted @ Fri, Oct 13, 2023 12:00:04 pm EDT from 204.184.178.1

Great to see you back, Blaise! Finally!

The old gang coming back together!

Looking forward to your commentary on the current comics... and your creative entrances and exits! Your insight and views on this world and franchise have always been great to read!
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Fri, Oct 13, 2023 11:28:14 am EDT from 67.189.167.107

Whoa, welcome back, Blaise! That was a really pleasant surprise, seeing your return. (And, yes, please keep the entrances and exits. They were such a part of your posts that they ought to stay.)

The podcast for "Avalon Part One" came out last evening. Another enjoyable one.

They brought up the book that Goliath stayed behind at the clock tower to read, and how we don't know what it was. (I'd been wondering that myself.) There was the suggestion (I'm not sure how serious) that it might have been one too recent to be in the public domain (which reminds me a bit of how they'd originally planned to mention "The Crystal Cave" in "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time" but weren't able to get the rights to do so). Of course, Goliath wound up having to wait a lot longer to finish it than he'd anticipated (unless he reached the last page before Elisa arrived to tell him about Tom).

There was some discussion of the Scottish history background, as well, which was one of my favorite parts of the episode. (I remember, the first time "Avalon Part One" aired, pulling out a little booklet I have on the royal family trees of the British Isles and checking the family tree of the early kings of Scotland, to find out that Kenneth II and Constantine III were indeed Scottish kings of that time, with Constantine's succession taking place in 995, just one year after the Wyvern Massacre.)

And there was also a bit about how the revelation of the Eggs' survival was the start of "there are other gargoyles out there after all" and how crucial it was for the tone of the series, to ensure that there'd be a feeling of hope. (Even a little remark about how, for all the talk of "Gargoyles" being a "dark" show - and it certainly seems dark by comparison with conventional Disney products - it was definitely not dark in the way that, say, "Batman: TAS" was, including the color palette.) I remember our discussions here about that. (Having the main characters be the last of their kind doesn't necessarily mean "bleak and hopeless", of course. Superman's the last of his kind, once he's gone, that's it for the Kryptonians, but from what I've seen of him, his tone is very upbeat in spite of that. Of course, Krypton generally gets treated as a plot device to explain his abilities and occasionally present him with challenging adversaries, while the gargoyles' "gargoyleness" was a focal point of their characterization.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Oct 13, 2023 8:44:20 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

Blaise > I was a lurker when you were posting here, but I remember your entrances and exits fondly and always found them fun.
Craig
posted @ Fri, Oct 13, 2023 1:29:47 am EDT from 166.198.251.124

Blaise! Wonderful to see you here again.

I, for one, have always loved your thoughts on the series, and look forward to your experiences with the new canon!

Spoiler tags are generally lifted after a week when something's been released, but with some back-to-back weeks heading our way, I anticipate most of us will still be mindful and cautious of those catching up.

(I also enjoy the entrances and exits. As Frank and Ollie say in The Incredibles, "no school like the old school." d: )
Phoenician
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."
posted @ Fri, Oct 13, 2023 1:16:08 am EDT from 44.202.213.14

Just a reminder, we're one week away from Gargoyles Remastered being released for all you gamers.
Or even if you're not a gamer and you're just interested.
Matthew
posted @ Fri, Oct 13, 2023 12:08:54 am EDT from 64.85.245.77

****There is a knock on the door (yes, there is a door). The door then opens and an old, once familiar face pokes through.****

Hi all. It's been a while. Like...a long, LONG while. So long I felt a bit self-conscious about posting again. Yes, even with all the new content for "Gargoyles"! Wow, what a time!
I've still kept in touch with others (like Greg Bishansky) through social media, and have been encouraged to return to the Room (I've actually been lurking again since the announcement of the Dynamite run last year), but always felt like I had to wait for the right time to post again. I thought when the trade came out for the first half of "Here in Manhattan" would be a good time, but as they say, "No plan survives first contact with the enemy." In this case the enemy is that dread fiend known as Schedule Slip. And with more content coming out that means the list of what to talk about isn't getting any shorter (a good thing!). And...well, let's just say today reminded me again of how life doesn't wait until things are convenient for us.
So, with the Room's kind indulgence, I would love to step back in and share my thoughts on the new material. Spread out over some weeks, though--I've found I can pretty much write a novella of thoughts for each issue, so it takes me some time to put it all down (and proofread, edit, re-proofread, tweak...). And the next two weeks will be busy (rehearsals for a small show next weekend). But I should be able to share my thoughts on the Halloween issue when it comes out.
(Small question: what's the exact SPOILER etiquette these days? Like, how far back do I have to include the SPOILER formatting in my issue rambles? Apologies: I feel like I should know this.)

****Blaise starts to duck back out the door...then stops.****
Honest question: I know these entrances and exits went well back in the day, but would they come across as more annoying now? Let me know if they do. Thanks!
****Now Blaise ducks out the door, which closes and winks out of existence.****
Blaise
"Ouch"--Me, all too often these days.
posted @ Thu, Oct 12, 2023 11:31:13 pm EDT from 45.48.54.221

Good points. I certainly don't think that an official recognition of the gargoyles as sentient beings would make the Quarrymen go away. But if the gargoyles gain the sort of "crime-fighter status" that your typical super-hero from DC or Marvel enjoys, the Quarrymen would have to work extra hard to ensure that fighting the gargoyles doesn't get them perceived as the kind of guys who'd be going after Batman if they lived in Gotham City. Castaway would be certainly stressing that they're going after them for being gargoyles, not for being crime-fighters.

Of course, the really big question I've been wondering about the Quarryman attack on the gargoyles on Halloween is that, the previous Halloween, Castaway had stressed that the Quarrymen were not going to go out armed then, because there was too much danger of their mistaking costumed trick-or-treaters for gargoyles, which would result in serious damage to their image. Which means that, short of gargoyle costumes being less fashionable this Halloween (which is possible, of course; back then, there was the excitement over the gargoyles having just been discovered, but they might be "old news" by 1997 Halloween), he wouldn't be likely to approve a major offensive that Halloween. Maybe this attack is an unofficial one, being carried without his approval.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Oct 12, 2023 8:11:45 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

If anything putting their protection into law or the government officially recognizing them as sentient would just galvanize the more bigoted to step up their attack.
One thing is certainly clear in human history is that certain people hate it when the government tells them what to do, and that includes treating the "other" as an equal.
Matthew
posted @ Thu, Oct 12, 2023 3:27:47 pm EDT from 64.85.245.77

Greg W has said that even after the Gargoyle Minority Protection Act is passed it doesn't stop all the discrimination overnight. The Quarrymen still exist in 2198.
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"
posted @ Thu, Oct 12, 2023 12:39:10 pm EDT from 204.184.178.1

Black people in America were legally recognized as full citizens since 1868, but there were still a huge number of racial hate crimes over the years. Look at the Tulsa Race Riots, for instance.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Thu, Oct 12, 2023 12:09:40 pm EDT from 69.247.67.113

CRAIG - I've wondered that as well. The solicitation suggests that human-gargoyle relations probably haven't changed that much, given: a) Halloween is still the one time that the gargoyles can safely go out, with everyone assuming they're just people in costume, and b) the Quarrymen are planning on launching a major attack on the gargoyles (which I doubt they'd dare do - at least, not unless they were using aliases, as in different uniforms - if the gargoyles had entered into a public partnership with the NYPD, say).
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Oct 11, 2023 7:43:18 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

It was very informative. Thank you for sharing.
House Cleaners Red Deer - [buluksura at gmail dot com]
builder16
posted @ Wed, Oct 11, 2023 4:46:34 pm EDT from 120.29.76.109

One week to go until the Halloween comic! I'm very intrigued to see how Greg handles the five-month time jump without revealing the endgame of "Here in Manhattan" and the court proceeding. It seems to me it will be very difficult to tell a Halloween story in particular without giving some indication of the state of human-gargoyle relations.

I also note that the nine issues of Gargoyles so far have apparently taken place over a span of only nine days (nights). Greg revealed on twitter that Michael Peter Maza was born on May 14. Backtracking, that puts the start of issue 1 on May 12. And it's May 20 when Elisa takes the stand.
Craig
posted @ Wed, Oct 11, 2023 12:09:14 pm EDT from 24.46.162.131

The two covers they previewed feature the Manhattan clan and not Demona, so I think it's a pretty safe bet this is a traditional Gargoyles story about our heroes, where Demona is the villain.
Craig
posted @ Tue, Oct 10, 2023 8:29:11 pm EDT from 50.29.112.2

Unless the article is highly misleading, Goliath will be part of the action, so the story can't be taking place at the same time as Here in Manhattan. I assume it's taking place shortly after, then.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Tue, Oct 10, 2023 8:24:15 pm EDT from 129.24.53.20

One thing I'd like to know: is this a continuation of "Gargoyles" past "Here in Manhattan", or more a Demona spin-off like the "villain spin-offs" Dynamite's been doing for Scar, Maleficent, Hades, and Negaduck?
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Oct 10, 2023 8:18:57 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

It's sort of a weird way to market the series. On the one hand it could build hype, "this is what THIS NEW ARC is about!" but on the other hand it makes things seem very... impermanent. But obviously a story about Demona is really exciting.

Another world tour could be really interesting. And would make a lot of sense, three new magical artifacts aren't necessarily all going to be sitting in NYC museums. It'd be kinda fun to have the whole Manhattan Clan go to Avalon. Especially Hudson. Also far less likely, because I can't figure out how it'd work logistically but getting a conscience Demona to Avalon would be fun too.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Tue, Oct 10, 2023 12:27:30 pm EDT from 70.24.104.181

CRAIG - [I suppose Xanatos might lend them a corporate jet.]

Which might be interesting to see, given that the clan still have some (understandable) difficulties trusting Xanatos. On the other hand, counting on Avalon to provide them with another skiff doesn't seem that likely.

And, yes, seeing more travel would be interesting. I'm certainly curious about what the three new keys to power are, and whether any of them will be linked to real-world legends (given that one of the original keys turned out to be the eye Odin gave up to drink from Mimir's well and another was connected to the Phoenix).
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Oct 9, 2023 8:26:00 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

It stands to reason that, between the title itself and the brief bit of description provided in that article, Quest will likely involve some globe-trotting. Which is an exciting prospect, seeing more of the Gargoyles universe and/or potentially revisiting a couple of World Tour locations…but it also would put the gargoyles at a distinct disadvantage, as Demona can simply board a daytime flight. Whereas intercontinental travel would be much tougher for our guys to arrange. I suppose Xanatos might lend them a corporate jet.
Craig
posted @ Mon, Oct 9, 2023 8:16:01 pm EDT from 166.198.251.124

Has it been so long? Sorry if I'm not following the comment train, I was feeling nostalgic and decided to see if this place was still around.

Lo and behold.

Last time I was here I believe I was still a teenager - possibly VERY early 20's. My goodness how time flies ... now over 40.
Ghost Of Chuut Ritt
posted @ Mon, Oct 9, 2023 5:46:52 pm EDT from 69.201.20.242

Seventh...?

Gargoyles Quest. Very cool. I'm assuming then that the current Gargoyles series will end with #12, and each future arc (of which there will hopefully be many) will restart with #1 and a new title? (This seems to be Dynamite's M.O. on many projects such as James Bond, Evil Dead, etc.).

Very excited to see Demona finally return to a prominent role in the story. Unless I missed it, the article doesn't indicate how many issues this arc will be?
Craig
posted @ Mon, Oct 9, 2023 4:20:30 pm EDT from 24.46.160.128

Glad to know future comics have been greenlit, but "Gargoyles Quest" is going to make googling it a challenged. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gargoyle%27s_Quest
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Oct 9, 2023 3:34:43 pm EDT from 64.106.38.254

Thanks for the news, Bishansky! (And trust you to be the one to report something involving Demona.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Oct 9, 2023 3:30:54 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

That's awesome to read, glad that these comics are still on-going.
Though for some reason they have it listed that the comics will be published starting January 2023.
Matthew
posted @ Mon, Oct 9, 2023 2:47:48 pm EDT from 64.85.245.77

Fourth...

... and dropping this here:

https://bleedingcool.com/comics/greg-weisman-pasquale-qualanos-demona-focused-gargoyles-quest/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Mon, Oct 9, 2023 11:19:53 am EDT from 67.189.167.107

Third
Phil - [p1anderson at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Oct 9, 2023 10:50:25 am EDT from 50.192.123.171

Second!
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"
posted @ Mon, Oct 9, 2023 9:52:37 am EDT from 204.184.178.1

First.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Oct 9, 2023 9:02:11 am EDT from 174.72.60.154