[SPOILER] It'd certainly make an interesting discussion topic, how much of Roebling's ruling was motivated by Xanatos's bribe, and how much by not wanting to go down in history as the 1990's counterpart to Roger B. Taney. [/SPOILER]

BLAISE - Thanks for the review of #1 of "Dark Ages". I thought that Caesar might be Brooklyn, with the unnamed gargoyle being someone else. I'll have to reread that part, though.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sun, Oct 29, 2023 9:19:10 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

****Blaise walks in with a cup of coffee.****
Can't party like I used to, man. Anyway:

CRAIG> [SPOILER] Definitely agree there. Elisa is not going to be terribly popular at the precinct because of all this, to say nothing of the DA's office. But I think she knew that when she took the witness stand. Whether she knew just how bad it can get, though.... [/SPOILER]

ALEX> [SPOILER] My understanding of the situation is that, as the plaintiff in this case, the burden of proof is on Tobe and Goliath. Margot doesn't necessarily have to "prove her case" so much as she has to tear down Tobe's case; raise enough doubt about the gargoyles so as to preclude them being seen as "humane beings", if you will. So yeah, her arguments are more responding to whatever Tobe puts forward (including finding witnesses that will, ideally, cancel out his witnesses). At least, that's my take. [/SPOILER]

Now, a ramble:
DARK AGES: ALLIANCE: THE REACH> (some colon cancer there--all future titles will just be the individual issue title.)
Finally, the Dark Ages spin-off! But not the story we would have gotten if this had come out during the SLG run. Instead, this is more of a standard “origins” story, and I am fine with that.

As with the original series, we have a brief “in the present (of 1997)” moment before transitioning back to 971. I love the symmetry between the two pages here, and the contrast (Hudson looking up in 1997 vs. Mentor looking down in 971, not to mention the moons). Of course, there’s also the neat factor of seeing a younger Hudson/Mentor. It’s great, yet my brain has the annoying habit of going, “MAN, Hudson ages a lot between now and 975 when ‘Vows’ took place!” I know, I know--it’s a result of only so much time/money/character models. It’s just the weird way my brain works.

But anyway, it’s time to see where that story we read at Ask Greg decades ago finally leads! I love how Robbie is taking the lead here and reminding Malcolm to keep his hands shown and off his sword. One thing that is remarkable is how many of the accoutrements the gargoyles wear predate the alliance with the humans here (Othello’s armor, Demona’s--strike that, ANGEL’s tiara, etc.). I like how Othello acknowledges that he knows Robbie but Malcolm is a stranger, however as soon as Robbie calls Malcolm his greatest friend and says he would “lay down [his] life for ‘im” Othello accepts that and leads them on.
Also love the bit where Othello bounds away on all fours and the two men share a look before doing their best to jog after him on two legs.

We get our title page and a nice view of the clan as it is now, with some old familiar faces, some new “familiar” faces (from stories on Ask Greg), and some just plain new faces. There’s a never before seen beast, too, with a rather...craggy aspect? (Seriously, it looks like it could camouflage as rock even at night, albeit a very spiky rock.)

We get some more information on Robbie (or Robert, here), such as that he grew up in a village not far from Wyvern Hill and even has a daughter there (well, that’s just opened a whole can of worms!). Robert gives a whole run-down of who Malcolm is, and I love Mentor’s dismissive “Hmph. Human kings.” Then Malcolm makes the faux pas of trying to ask how to address this leader of the clan: the way Mentor’s eyes change over the course of these three panels is great (first the pupils/irises shrink down to pin-points and then they glow). I also love the comedic “ You knew that!”, “I knew that!” bit between Robert and Malcolm.

We start to get more of the story from Malcolm and there are a lot of fun and/or interesting bits here. Like how Mentor refers to Robert as “Robbie,” again indicating how well known the young man is among their clan. Or Mentor’s annoyance at having to learn all these names (don’t worry, dude, a lot of humans feel the same way, I’m sure). And we see some eavesdroppers, three of which are familiar, but the fourth.... Well, it seems our Trio was a Quartet once upon a time. This new little girl gargoyle has naturally set the fandom’s imagination ablaze, and I look forward to learning more about her.

Malcolm’s attempts to convince Mentor to form an alliance by basically saying “Look at my face; does this look like a face that would lie to you?” fall flat, so Robbie points out that his people respect the gargoyles but Culen’s men make “sport” of their “daylight sanctity.” This statement is agreed to by a gargoyle known out-of-universe as Lefty for obvious reasons. Or at least the reasons become obvious eventually (yeah, count me as another who completely missed that he was missing his right arm below the elbow until the battle at the end--leading me to wonder how I missed it here). Of course, more obvious is his coloring and hair, which show a resemblance to a certain someone.

The humans make the promise to defend the clan during the day, and Mentor asks the men to leave while they confer. There’s a fun bit with Malcolm and Robbie going back and forth over whether or not they managed to convince the clan to join them.

We now formally meet Mentor/Hudson’s mate (and Broadway’s mother). Out-of-universe, she’s called “Verity” because.
.well, Mentor’s line, I guess. I mean, it is fitting because “verity” means “truth” or “true principle or belief, especially one of fundamental importance” and from what we see she is an honest advisor (and possibly spiritual leader, but we’ll get to that). Her design is cool, too: taller than Mentor, non-human lips (more beak like), no hair but a set of ridges that resemble Broadway’s (along with similar ears and coloring). I remember sometime back in the Comment Room (way, WAY back) someone opined that every time they tried to envision this character, they just basically saw Broadway in a blonde wig. This is much better.

Anyway, Verity seems to be for the alliance because in her experience “human problems become gargoyle problems,” a line she says in earshot of the young Goliath and which he apparently takes to heart (enough to echo it many centuries down the line in “M.I.A.”). Lefty, however, brings up that doing so will result in “casualties--and not just theirs” and asks if Mentor (whom he calls “old friend”) can live with that risk. On first reading, this almost sounded like he was arguing against forming the alliance, but the more I thought about it the more I realized it’s probably not that simple. Lefty knows Culen is a threat to the Clan’s safety even without the alliance, as stated earlier. I don’t know if he lost his right arm to shattering or some other skirmish, but either way he seems familiar with the brutality of Culen’s men. I think he just wants to make sure Mentor fully understands what committing to this alliance means (i.e., that they WILL lose clan--family--to this) and makes an informed decision. I don’t know at what point I figured out that Lefty was Mentor’s Second in Command (instead of that role being filled by Mentor’s mate as many of us long believed), but this sort of thing was a pretty good indicator.

The alliance is on! Though the only smiles I can see belong to Robbie, Verity and Goliath (even Malcolm only seems to have a small one).

We cut to a village (*the* village near the hill?) where a couple of young boys are playing with wooden swords, with the older calling himself “the true king of Scotland.” Their play ends when the literally run into Malcolm and we learn they are Maol (Chalvim) and Kenny (who will be Kenneth III)--FORESHADOWING! And we also meet Maol’s father, Kenneth II. Or just Kenneth at the moment, as he points out. (Character design observation: Yeah, it’s important to keep track of all the men’s facial hair here--at this point it’s the only way to keep track of who’s who.)

Over at the cave that serves as the Clan’s rookery we have a great scene and conversation between Mentor and Verity. It’s great character and even world building: I love Mentor’s doubts and Verity’s gentle reassurances, along with a little playful sass about who chose who as mate. And some of Verity’s lines, particularly about how “all things are connected” jive with what Greg Weisman has told us about gargoyle spirituality. Again, more credence to the idea that Verity is, if not the spiritual leader, than at least one of the more spiritual of the Clan.

We get Mentor and Lefty at a strategy meeting (another indicator of Lefty's status as Second) with Robbie, Malcom and Kenneth (and an Archmage I didn’t recognize first time I read this--he’s another who aged a lot in 4 years!), where Mentor points out that treating gargoyles as additional ground troops, when they’ve got freakin’ wings(!), is stupid. The last panel: the word bubble seems to be coming from Kenneth but it looks like Malcolm is talking. Mistake?

We now cut to the clan, and the gargoyle known out-of-universe as Hyppolyta is throwing a fit because her generation (which includes Goliath, Angel, and all their siblings) is being ordered to remain behind and not take part in the battle. She practically towers over Mentor, but the latter still stares her down. Goliath, however, has a different response: he would just like to know why, please. And Mentor answers, basically saying, “You’re here in case we all die out there--someone’s got to raise the kids and keep the home turf.” That’s good enough for Goliath. Whether he shared that answer with anyone else, I don’t know, but Hyppolyta seems less interested in the next generation and more interested in fighting (and Angel seems to be the closest to her).

At the next sunset, the two armies prepare for battle. It seems Kenneth’s army has lured Culen’s to a beach that would normally trap the former except for the gargoyle’s battle plan. And Robbie is by the gargoyles in preparation (nice touch).

The battle begins, and some effort is made to differentiate the two sides: Kenneth and Malcolm lead the side with a predominantly blue color scheme and soldiers whose faces are exposed, while Culen leads the side with a predominantly red color scheme and soldiers whose faces are covered (the Faceless Hordes of Evil (tm) if you will). Culen is definitely looking for his opposing numbers among the blue team and seems to see them. Malcolm gets unhorsed by a random faceless mook. And all through this the sun has been setting, although not fast enough for Robbie. It still sets, though, and Robbie rides his reinforcements into battle just as the gargoyles glide into the same. Including a couple of unplanned extra gargoyles, because Hyppolyta refuses to sit this out and Angel is not going to be left behind.
Two things I love on this page: 1) all the gargoyle designs at the top, and 2) the dedication to the memory of Dave Schwartz at the bottom.
And now we get the prose story. It’s mostly the first part of “Once Upon a Time There Were Three Brothers,” but with a wraparound segment of it being a story told by a troupe of players. Or more specifically, one of their number who is telling it while the rest prepare to put on an actual play. We have descriptions of the troupe leader, the storyteller, and the only other woman in the group. Speculations have been made as to who the first and third might be, but with only these descriptions to go on I will wait for further confirmation of anything. As to the storyteller’s identity, no further confirmation is needed than how she begins her tale. Further proof that Shari is more than she seems.

The writer of the wraparound tale is a young girl (and even before we had confirmation it was Robbie’s daughter, we *knew* it was Robbie’s daughter) who learned how to read and write from a gargoyle she calls “Alexander” (who is most likely Lexington, just based on what I know of behind-the-scenes lore and seems to be maybe confirmed by the Halloween special). She also name-drops others: Antiope (who seems to be the Trio’s sister we saw earlier), Caesar and Charlemagne (not enough to go on here, but based on Broadway’s costume we seem to have some idea that he's the latter), and a “little Gargoyle with a long pointy beak” that the girl never found a name for (man, Brooklyn...just too cool for the Tenth Century). She also name drops a couple of humans, including Mary. And Mary being at a story circle with gargoyles here makes me wonder what happened between this writing and 994 to make her fear and hate gargoyles like she does in “Awakening” Part One.

Anyway, the story goes up to where the elder Katharine chooses to remain as hostage with her baby, Malcolm. I know we all have felt that final line: “And, thus, given no choice, we waited..”

Presentation wise, I love the art throughout this book: great detail and a gritty quality I like. The prose at the end looks like it was printed in a way to simulate an old, faded medieval manuscript, which is a nice idea, but I know a lot of people had difficulty reading it. I can see on my copy that it looks like certain bits of letters are missing here and there and I’m not sure how much of that was accident or design. Either way, this is a quality that seems to be dropped for subsequent issues (we’ll have to see if the trade follows suit).

It’s great to finally get this story.


All right. Two more issues of "Dark Ages" to go and then the next issue on Wednesday!
****Blaise chugs his coffee in one go and zooms out of the room like the Flash.****
Blaise
"There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes."--The Doctor
posted @ Sun, Oct 29, 2023 3:08:16 pm EDT from 45.48.54.221

[SPOILER]
Gargoyles #10 was great. Elisa's speech about how she was in love with Goliath was heavy-handed but appropriate for a court setting, avoiding a whole bunch of "so when you save love, you mean..." Tobe made the obvious connection to previous civil rights movements, and Roebling was convinced. Or so it would seem. The Xanatos Tag showing he bribed the judge got me, I'll admit. It seems like Roebling wanted to go that way anyway, and the payoff was just so he didn't have to worry about ruining his life to do the right thing. On the one hand, it tarnishes the victory somewhat, but OTOH that's how Xanatos is. If Goliath ever found out, I picture his reaction like Lisa and Mr. Burns: "You're still evil! And when you try to be good, you're even more evil!" That said, I'm not naive enough to think the real Civil Rights movements were squeaky clean. Stonewall was a riot, as the saying goes. If bribing a judge ever came out, it would obviously get the ruling thrown out, but the hope is that gargoyles would be too well accepted by then to turn back the clock.
[/SPOILER]
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sun, Oct 29, 2023 11:07:51 am EDT from 73.98.83.6

I think, for Tobe Crest, a few of us discussed in private that we were hearing Phil LaMarr.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Sun, Oct 29, 2023 10:30:09 am EDT from 67.189.167.107

[SPOILER] Fruit of the Poisonous Tree is actually really important in an episode of Hill Street Blues, where super bad-ass, maybe-kinda-partly the inspiration for Elisa PD Joyce Davenport dupes the hell out the cops in order to get her client off. That's your Hill Street Blues fact for the day.

I really didn't think any of Margot's arguments were great. I don't think anything she argued was really even cohesive. Obviously she couldn't argue Goliath wasn't sentient, but I don't know if she was even portraying Gargoyles as violent or a threat to public safety in a direct way.

Like I'm re-reading her scenes and she just seems to change her arguments as Goliath's testimony is given, Goliath foolishly brings up that humans wiped out his clan (which is... entirely irrelevant to the case at hand) which gave her an opening to question whether he wants revenge (which is... also kind of irrelevant, but is less irrelevant than Goliath bringing it up) then later Margot questions Castaway about it which is... am I way off the mark? It just seems so irrelevant to me. Like Castaway's basically going "Hey I've got this 500 year old journal by some guy and he says the Gargoyles totes tried to kill all the humans".

I think the bit with Fox is definitely a reference to the OJ Trial. The word "preempt" seems pretty deliberate to me.

I imagine there might be some legal shenanigans about the gargoyles, but that feels more like a story that'll play off screen maybe. [/SPOILER]

I was watching some Barney Miller clips on YouTube, and w while ago we were discussing voices for Tobe Crest's voice, and I really just think that Roscoe Lee Brown in this clip is channeling a very similar energy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVKeM1MP6HE

I think it's neat. Like Tobe just seems like this larger than life personality, but with this wisdom and kind of serenity.

(Also Barney Miller is a terrific series)
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Sun, Oct 29, 2023 4:48:40 am EDT from 70.27.161.86

Blaise >

[SPOILER]
It's a fair point that the gargoyles haven't really contributed much to the investigative / evidence-gathering side of Elisa's cases, at least not in a legally significant way. They're not Batman. Realistically, as I said, all of Elisa's cases would be reopened and it would be an uncomfortable and time-consuming process for her. But the ultimate outcome might be that the convictions/pleas would all stand. Still not something the NYPD is likely to be too happy about, though.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Sat, Oct 28, 2023 8:49:20 pm EDT from 24.46.160.64

****The Jack-O-Lantern head flies back in.****
Sorry for the double--just saw one more reply.

TODD JENSEN> [SPOILER] Thanks, but I can't really take credit. I saw that mentioned elsewhere, can't remember where right now (Reddit, Facebook, etc.), but once I read it Fox's line took on more layers of meaning for me. Like I said, I don't know that was Greg Weisman's intention, but I felt it worth the brief mention. And for the record, that trial didn't preempt "Gargoyles" where I lived either. [/SPOILER]

All right, I'm out.
****The Jack-O-Lantern flies back out.****
Blaise
"There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes."--The Doctor
posted @ Sat, Oct 28, 2023 8:36:32 pm EDT from 45.48.54.221

****Blaise "zips" back in--or rather, just his head does.****
Just some responses.

CRAIG> [SPOILER] Yeah, I didn't know the name "the Fruit of the Poisonous Tree" but I know the gist of it. I'm not saying appeals and re-trials won't happen, I'm only saying that even once gargoyle involvement is ascertained and any "corrupted evidence," if you will, is dismissed, whatever is left over is probably still good enough (or at least Elisa thinks it is, based on her expressions). But with the examples mentioned:
*THE PACK: Wolf (and Fox) were initially arrested because of holding a woman hostage, and Jackal and Hyena performed assault and armed robbery at the Diamond Exchange (no gargoyle involvement that time) and both had plenty of witnesses. After that they have breaking out of prison and everything they've done after that (including breaking back IN to prison). The gargoyles have little enough to do with WHY the Pack are wanted and how much evidence the cops have against them that I feel there's little cause for concern there.
*DRACON: The last straw for Dracon (after getting off for kidnapping two cops), the "third time charm" that really got him put away, was confessing to his whole protection racket on (a supposed to be hidden) camera. That was part of an "on the books" undercover operation (allowing for the usual artistic license that is show business). Now, the gargoyles *did* have involvement with that on Elisa's part (not so much by her choice this time), and I don't know to what extent Tony's lawyers could argue he never would have said what he said on the tape without the gargoyles and therefore it should be inadmissible. I'm willing to admit of all the crooks we've seen, Tony's the one we might see outside of a jail cell in the near future. Still, Tony's not so clever as he thinks he is.

As for Elisa outside the courthouse--we might have to just agree to disagree here. I mean, I really don't think she was waiting to talk to him *right there*. I think she just wanted to see him free (and maybe step in if the Press is too much). And a look to acknowledge her presence (especially when surrounded by Press) may be enough between the two of them. And the look Elisa gives as Goliath goes off does not look angry to me. Also, it seems that word around Renard is "he could go any second now" so yes, time is of the essence if someone wants to see him before he dies. So yeah, I don't have a problem with this, it all seems "in character" for everyone involved.

As for Xanatos...he's Xanatos. If he can get from the Eyrie (or wherever he was watching Coldstone's Times Square battle) to Times Square (fully armored!) in two lines of dialogue in "Reawakening" then the court house is nothing. He's where he wants to be, when he wants to be there.
(Seriously though, I had the same thought, I just forgot to write it down--there was a whole lot there.) [/SPOILER]

MORRAND> [SPOILER] I have to disagree with your assessment of Margot's performance in the hearing. There were two questions before the court: 1) are gargoyles sentient, and 2) should they be extended the same rights under the law as humans. Margot lost the battle for the first question the moment Tobe won the motion to have Goliath appear in court. As Roebling points out, the answer to that question becomes "yes, obviously" as soon as you hold a conversation with one. So yeah, Margot knew she had lost that one, and so wasn't even trying to argue that gargoyles weren't sentient anymore. Having given that up for a bad job, she moved onto the second question--the question of human rights. That's why her arguments weren't about trying to prove gargoyles were just animals, but instead dangerous monsters that no sane, honest person would ever view as anything else. And since they were dangerous and *inhuman* monsters, they should never be granted "human rights." THAT was the thrust of her case. [/SPOILER]

SOME THOUGHTS ON MARGOT> Slight [SPOILER] I've been thinking (everyone can stop screaming). For a long time we wondered how Margot could argue in court or on a TV interview that the gargoyles are just "beasts, animals" when she has actually spoken and responded to them, albeit in a state of high terror ("City of Stone" Part 1). For the longest time, I think a lot of us chalked it up to just very strong denial, but I've started wondering if that's the case. The times she has argued for them to be viewed as animals has been in public settings (court and on TV, as stated earlier), so what if that's just her public line and privately she knows they're not just animals...and it doesn't matter to her? They frighten her (more than any human mugger or terrorist that threatened her) and she wants them GONE. I'm not saying denial isn't in there and that she couldn't have talked herself into believing that the gargoyles were more animalistic than she actually experienced. I'm just saying, with how quickly she dispensed with the question of their sentience during the hearing, I've started to wonder.... [/SPOILER]

Okay, I've got to get ready for a Halloween party. Later.
****Blaise's head turns into a floating Jack-O-Lantern and flies out of the Room.****
Blaise
"There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes."--The Doctor
posted @ Sat, Oct 28, 2023 8:30:31 pm EDT from 45.48.54.221

BLAISE - Thanks for your review. [SPOILER] I hadn't thought about Fox's line being an echo of the O. J. Simpson trial pre-empting "Gargoyles" until you brought it up (it helped that the pre-emptions never took place in my area, so I only knew about them through reading about them on-line), and now I'm wondering if Greg Weisman had it in mind. Very good spot. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Oct 28, 2023 8:01:34 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

Blaise >
[SPOILER]
"I know we’ve talked about how this might give perps she’s arrested grounds for a new trail, but if she’s saying it this openly then their convictions might be based on enough irrefutable evidence to not be an issue (she only mentions The Pack and Dracon, and they’re provably guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt)."

There's a legal doctrine called Fruit of the Poisonous Tree which states that any evidence obtained illegally is inadmissible at trial...and that includes any additional evidence which was obtained as a result of the initial illegal action. So, for instance, if the police improperly act on the word of an unregistered informant to conduct a search without court approval, any subsequent contraband, statements, etc. that were otherwise properly obtained are excluded since they were a direct result of the initial illegal action. There are exceptions to this in some circumstances if it can be shown that the evidence would have been discovered by the police/prosecution anyway by other means (the inevitable discovery rule). So, as guilty beyond a reasonable doubt as Dracon or the Pack might be, it's possible that some of the evidence supporting that finding should have been excluded from the trial given its provenance. Maybe not; I'd have to rewatch to see what exactly the gargoyles contributed to the investigation in an episode like "Turf," for instance, as I can't exactly remember the blow-by-blow. But at the very least, this is ABSOLUTELY a basis for Tony and the Pack and, really, any defendant whose case Elisa was at all involved with over the past two and a half years to appeal and get their cases reopened to assess to what extent if any the gargoyles were involved.

I agree with you on Owen getting around, but how about that Xanatos? To paraphrase Professor Farnsworth from Futurama, he was already in his pajamas! Presumably, right after Fox ducks out, he throws on his finest suit and heads downtown to the courthouse in time to catch Roebling in his quarters?

I agree with you that we'll be getting a more significant Goliath/Elisa dialogue down the pike, and that it's appropriate for issue 12 (especially given the way this "Here in Manhattan" arc began, it would be a nice bookend). And by wanting it here, on some level, I'm admittedly being greedy, because this issue is already such a bonanza of Goliath/Elisa material. My main complaint is just that it makes Goliath look like kind of a jerk for hardly even acknowledging her after all this, except possibly with a little glance. If Elisa hadn't appeared in that scene at all, I wouldn't have minded nearly as much. The fact that she's there waiting for him and he doesn't so much as say a word to her just feels wrong to me. It's not like Renard would die in the time it would take him to say "thank you" before climbing up the building. I don't know...all I can say is that any woman I've ever dated would NOT have been happy with me if I'd completely ignored them in similar circumstances. :)
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Sat, Oct 28, 2023 7:12:44 pm EDT from 24.46.162.17

****Blaise stumbles into the room.****
Okay, meant to post my thoughts on the new issue Thursday night...and was just too exhausted. I've got some time now, though, so...

NEW RULES> [SPOILER] Katana is our narrator for this one and I am very happy. I was going to mention that I couldn’t recall her having any lines since issue 2, and as she is one of the new characters I was very eager to get to know her better. We get some background on her culture where gargoyles *do* have names, but it is part of a naming ceremony (and I get the implication that one may accept the name or not) and Katana (in accordance with what we have been told about gargoyle culture in general) says that while she accepted the name she does not allow the name to “define” her. I love the pause when, regarding her clan calling her Katana, she says, “having decided, one assumes, that I shared certain...qualities with that weapon.” Does that mean they thought she was as deadly in battle as a katana? Or had a mind sharp as one? Or a tongue, rather? I look forward to learning more. And we get a reminder that, in this universe, gargoyles and tengu are one and the same.

We get some panels of her in her home era, teaching “samurai and peasant alike” Bushido (again, showing a gargoyle culture that does not seem to recognize caste systems), and her and Brooklyn...encountering three musketeers? If not THE Three Musketeers?! If they are, they are hopefully less jerks than their literary counterparts--seriously, I’ve read the book and, thanks to Values Dissonance, they often came across as “designated heroes.” Then again, since they’re not all white males here, their being less jerks is entirely possible.

Back in the...”present” (1997, man...), we return to the clan watching Goliath’s hearing and Elisa’s testimony. Katana confirms that they never encountered another gargoyle/human pairing during their Timedance (take that, fan fiction writers!...sorry), and she is concerned that Elisa being on the stand for Goliath “could be painful” because, in her experience, “uniqueness...is rarely tolerated.” I wonder if that is just a general observation or if she's thinking about something specific.

Have I mentioned I love Elisa’s wardrobe yet? (No, because I’m behind in my rambles.) Then again, getting her in different wardrobe at all is novel, so that just makes it stand out all the more. Nice to know she shares my preference for red and black, though!

We get a solid date for the 1994 events of “Awakening Part 2” and Elisa actually talks about Goliath helping her with her work. I know we’ve talked about how this might give perps she’s arrested grounds for a new trail, but if she’s saying it this openly then their convictions might be based on enough irrefutable evidence to not be an issue (she only mentions The Pack and Dracon, and they’re provably guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt). Elisa then goes on to give an unprompted speech about Goliath being the most “humane” individual she knows--I’m kind of surprised Margot didn’t try to object to that as my understanding is that witnesses aren’t supposed to do that kind of thing unless prompted to by the attorney.

Speaking of whom, Tobe states that he asked about her *relationship* with Goliath (I wonder how much he learned from Goliath and how much from..elsewhere). And Elisa...just lays it all out on the table (even clarifying that she is *in love* with him, *romantically*), in open court and on live TV as Brooklyn points out. As I said, I share his and Katana’s reactions: a moment of “wow, just...wow” and admiring it as brave (especially for someone as secretive as Elisa) but also wondering at the wisdom.

We now cut to some spectators I hadn’t expected to see: the Dracons (at least the ones currently free). Dominic’s use of the archaic “frail” to refer to Elisa: honest “old-timey” slang, or another “dotty old man” affectation? Or both. Either way, Elisa’s admission actually seems to impress Dino (at least a little bit). And Dino seems to enjoy some puns and word play, saying it took guts for “the cop to cop to it” and calling them “Maza and the Monster” (instead of the other alliterative term we all know). It’s interesting that Dino acknowledges love as “a powerful motivator’ but not enough to guarantee anything. And his mention of “the Romeos and Juliets o’ this world” along with the staged pics of Rosaria and Peter...yeah, we know what he did.

Margot gets up to cross, and I find myself wondering what her initial reaction was to Maza, a detective she has sat in the same room with during Gargoyles Taskforce meetings, admitting to knowing and *loving* one of them all this time. And Margot focuses on that secret-keeping in her cross (love the bit where Margot insists on calling Goliath “it” and Elisa is just as insistent in correcting that to “his”). And Margot hammers that Elisa kept this from her superior, Captain Chavez, who we even see in the audience with an unreadable (to me, anyway) expression. And continued to keep it secret even when assigned to the taskforce that’s supposed to be focused on hunting down the gargoyles. Even pretending she couldn’t hear Elisa to get the latter to repeat that, yes, she kept this secret.
(Also, I’m sorry but...shouldn’t Chavez have brown hair and green eyes?)

Margot gives a summation/accusation instead of a question (calling Elisa’s feelings for Goliath an “obsession” and saying she betrayed the police to “protect and serve said monster”), to which Tobe rightfully objects and Roebling rightfully sustains. However, she sums up the question: Elisa has proven herself untrustworthy at least, and possibly compromised in her judgment, so why should they give any weight to her testimony? It’s a hard enough question that Elisa doesn’t answer (probably nothing that Margot couldn’t turn into a weapon anyway).

We now see Xanatos and Fox in bed (not like that!) watching the proceedings. Owen interrupts that there is a call for Fox from Preston Vogel (I did not put the full implications of this together during my first read, my mind was on other things I’ll get to in a second). Fox says she’ll call him back because she won’t let him “preempt the best show on television.” I do not know whether this is a dig at the original show getting preempted by a certain high-profile trial, but what struck me most during my first read was how unconcerned she seemed about the hearing. I mean, I didn’t anticipate Xanatos and Fox being as invested as the rest of the clan, but I would have thought they would have been a little more interested in the outcome of the hearing as opposed to treating it as entertainment. Of course, upon finishing the issue, this attitude makes more sense. But I’m getting ahead of myself: a wild Titania appears! She shows up from the mirror and says that “it is time.” Again, I didn’t put the full implications together: I was just surprised Titania showed up like this with no preamble and wondered if what she was talking about had something to do with what she whispered to Fox back in “The Gathering.” Oh, how much more simple (and sad) the real reason is.

Tobe waives a closing statement (probably so he can better respond to Margot’s) and Margot gives a surprisingly short one (only so many pages and panels...). Her argument is that this hearing in a New York court is no place “to re-write the definition of Humanity” (with a lot of added punctuation to make her point). This has been Margot’s strategy since Goliath was brought into the court--since his very actions and speech would show he is sapient, she gives up the whole “they’re just dumb animals” argument (assuming she ever truly believed that to begin with) in favor of focusing on the “they are dangerous, scary, inhuman monsters” aspect. Just continually highlighting that people are afraid of them, correct to be afraid of them, and any allies they have are either secretly afraid of them or mentally unwell. Margot is different from Castaway in that she doesn’t necessarily want the gargoyles all dead, she just wants them to stay locked up or taken far, far away where she--sorry, all humanity will be safe from them (and she--they won’t ever have to even think about them again).

Tobe takes his opportunity for a rebuttal, asks Goliath to rise, and gives a speech that touches on something I knew would be brought up eventually: the way the definition of “humanity” in this country once excluded people like Tobe Crest, and how History (with a capital “H”) may react to this very hearing in a New York court. So many, including beyond this Comment Room, have already remarked on the power of this speech, so my voice is just another in the choir here. I will say that I loved a small bit of symmetry here: Tobe’s line about how “History will not be kind to those who fought for or aided oppression” is echoed months later by Gnash when he tells Castaway that “History is not kind to the Quarrymen.”

And then comes the 2-page spread of almost *everyone* watching:
*The Dracon group we saw earlier, along with “Broadway” and “Lexington” from somewhere else (yeah, about +90% sure who they and “Brooklyn” are)
*The Greene/Brown family (surprising that of all the background characters they show up here, but only in a vacuum--this sort of helps foreshadow the kids' return in the Halloween special)
*Thailog, Brentwood, Sevarius and Shari (Thailog’s eyes seem a bit less red)
*The Maza parents (Diane’s hair seems to have gone white) and Beth (she’s probably in town to meet her new nephew)
*Brod with a teeny, tiny portable TV, and Tony trying to look over his shoulder
*The Labyrinth Clan including Michael, Al, Erin, Benny and Thug (though I can’t see Delilah anywhere, but I don’t know if that’s supposed to be significant or if there just wasn’t enough space--I was more surprised by Malibu’s eyes glowing and wondering why he's angry)
*Slaughter and his henchmen (makes sense, he’s the only other member of the Families to directly interact with the gargoyles)
*Demona, who almost looks..eager?
*And of course, the Manhattan Clan.

Roebling gives his ruling. He points out that Goliath is CLEARLY sentient (again, as soon as Goliath was brought in this was pretty much a foregone conclusion, and I love Roebling’s facepalm/bridge pinch during this) so ruling that is just a formality. But the big thing is acknowledging that Goliath has “human rights”..and after pointing out that Goliath “embodies all the qualities, which, in our speciest way we consider to be the most humane” (love getting that “speciest” in there) Roebling rules that G *does* qualify for rights and therefore should be released immediately. Now ALL the manacles come off, including the one around his neck (and poor Matt is stuck lugging them away, just to show how much weight Goliath was carrying here).

The Clan celebrates, with Gnash and Lex high-fouring and the former even giving a “Jalapena!” (and since it was sometimes used as a swear in the series, I almost want Brooklyn or Katana to say “Nashville! Language!”), Coldfire letting Coldstone know, and even a couple of wing embraces between Broadway and Angela, and Brooklyn and Katana. And a smile from Hudson that is just so blissful.
However, Angela’s reaction here is very telling for me: she says “He was right about the humans. My father was right.” I think Angela, who was raised by humans, was actually having a “crisis of faith,” as it were. I wonder if she may have started worrying that Demona--who was duplicitous, violent and wrong on many other things--may have sadly been right about humanity as a whole (with Elisa, Katharine and others like them just being “the good ones”). And this ruling is not just relief that Goliath is freed, but that he was “right about the humans” and Demona was wrong.

I like that Katana’s narration indicates that something “turned the tide.” She doesn’t know what, she doesn’t even know if Elisa’s testimony helped or hurt, but she knows it was something. But she pushes it to the side to enjoy the moment.

Coldstone takes the news of Goliath’s release rather stoically. He does acknowledge it as a “great boon” and that they have much to thank the humans for in this, specifically saying “their..largesse will not be forgotten.” Once again (I’ll get into this more when I talk about issue 8), I wonder if Coldstone and Coldfire may be leaving the clan at the end of “Here in Manhattan.” This is based on Coldstone’s attitude and the placement of his and Coldfire’s conversation after Katana’s remark about the Clan being whole again (ah, irony). And based on Coldstone’s line, I find myself wondering...does he know what Xanatos did already?

Tobe and Goliath are outside the courthouse, and Tobe echoes a line from over 1,000 years ago (“That’s a verity”). I wonder where he heard that phrase before? And where he learned the forearm clasp that our gargoyles seem to prefer. Of course, now Goliath gets mobbed by the press. Love some of the questions (“Can you turn to stone for us right now?” “Are their(sic) other creatures out there”) but Goliath is looking at Elisa. Unfortunately, so is Travis Marshall, who wants to interview them both and really seems to love the line about Manhattan “if not the world” being rocked by something, in this case the relationship between Goliath and Elisa. But Owen whispers something to Goliath (and, as others have pointed out, we have an error where his left hand is colored like stone but definitely not in a fist shape). Goliath excuses himself and climbs up the side of the building (I wouldn’t be surprised if Margot is going to start going after them for vandalism and property damage now) and glides off. I’ve seen people saying they would have preferred Goliath and Elisa to have a conversation here, but I disagree. I feel that is better saved for the end of issue 12 and for a place more private than surrounded by press. Also, as is mentioned in the final panel, death rarely comes with good timing. But I’m getting ahead of myself again.

Oh, and then we get the revelation that Roebling is a corrupt judge and Xanatos paid him off to rule as he did.
ME: Wow. I did not see that coming.
Yeah, as Greg Bishansky pointed out, the clues were all there (how chummy he was with Xanatos, his not recusing himself from the hearing, etc.). And the fact that most of us like Roebling makes it hit that little bit harder. Of course, even Roebling admits that this feels like doing the “right thing.”
More than anything, this reminds me of a line from the movie “Lincoln” directed by Steven Spielberg: about the passing of the 13th Amendment, Thaddeus Stevens (played by Tommy Lee Jones), the biggest proponent of the Amendment, says “The greatest measure of the 19th Century. Passed by corruption, aided and abetted by the purest man in America.” This has that same feeling: corruption being used to do something good because the honest avenues aren't enough. One can argue that taints the soil, but honestly...in both Law and Politics...one could argue that there isn't any *untainted* soil.
At any rate, I like the moral ambiguity of this. But that final panel of Xanatos...that makes me concerned.

We then go to Goliath’s destination, Fortress 2, where it appears Renard is about to die. And as Greg Weisman long ago said, he is surrounded by Goliath, Preston, Anastasia, Fox and Alexander.

Random Thoughts:
*Man Owen gets around. If this is all in the same night, he manages to be at the Eyrie building before closing statements, and at the courthouse after Goliath gets out. We've no idea exactly how much time that was, but the dude moves fast. As for being seen with Goliath and solidifying the connection between Xanatos and the gargoyles...I just choose to believe Owen is very good at being unobtrusive and unremarkable when he wants to be.
*What will happen to Elisa? She seems to be still on the force come Halloween. But that doesn't mean other things can't happen to her (demotion, suspension without pay, etc.). We'll see what happens.

An end to the “hearing of Goliath” but with still a lot of ground to cover in the last two issues. And if the preview blurbs were at all accurate to begin with (the next issue blurb still talks about “Brooklyn and Katana’s” Commitment Ceremony), some plans seem to have been adjusted behind the scenes. The errors in coloring, models or spelling are mostly nitpicks for me: overall this was a very good, powerful and surprising issue. It’s going to be a long wait for the next one.... [/SPOILER]

Okay. I've still got the other issues to catch up on, but I'll pause going back over "Here in Manhattan" to give "Dark Ages: Alliance" some attention. With luck, I'll have my rambles on the first three of those up before Wednesday!
****Blaise zips out of the room...with a zipper...in mid-air.****
Blaise
"There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes."--The Doctor
posted @ Sat, Oct 28, 2023 4:26:02 pm EDT from 45.48.54.221

Greg> Good to know! I like the future to be mostly unknown, more interesting that way.
Kate
posted @ Sat, Oct 28, 2023 3:09:23 pm EDT from 172.56.29.198

Okay, now with the latest release I can share some thoughts

[SPOILER] So one thing that took me a bit by surprise was just how neatly the courtroom drama was wrapped up, how open and up-front Elisa was with both the gargoyles assistance with the police and her relationship with Goliath. With this, the Quarrymen handled rather easily on Halloween and the shift to the more personal drama of Renard's final days, I have this sneaking suspicion that the narrative is luring us into a false sense of security.

Maybe it's the cynic in me that says nothing ever goes right for very long, maybe I'm just expecting something to be shaken up so the heroes avoid complacency. But you don't drop several bombs like gargoyles assisting the police and one of them is in a personal relationship with the detective assigned to a big sting operation and walk away without question. So I have a notion that Elisa will be under some serious review in the near future and perhaps even her career as a police officer might be in question. The series has made it clear that there's no status quo so a huge change like this wouldn't be out of the question.

Then there's the matter of Castaway and the Quarrymen. Like I mentioned before his loss is a particularly humiliating one but if modern events has taught us anything it's that demagogues love their persecution complex. The scrap up at Greenwich certainly filtered out the fanatics willing to fight from the more passive bigots and I can't help but feel that John is going to use his arrest as a means to gather more influence. To play the part of the underdog who was "unfairly arrested for standing up for human rights." And if the series is willing to dip its toes into some more overt religious representation, then I could easily see some hardcore evangelical types who see Elisa's relationship as "laying with a demon" and flock to Castaways cause, even if it's not quite the same type of violence.

Then there's something Gnash said that's been eating at me, about history not being kind to the Quarrymen and what Brooklyn said about the importance of getting a bigger view of history and how seeing bits and pieces doesn't help. History certainly isn't kind to extremist groups who emphasize violent bigotry, but that doesn't mean they just disappear nor that their actions don't leave some scars. Like before I have a bad feeling that Gnash is going to get a firsthand look into how human/gargoyle relationships have a long way to go before the Quarrymen's legacy is looked upon with disgusted shame. [/SPOILER]
Matthew
posted @ Sat, Oct 28, 2023 2:48:58 pm EDT from 64.85.245.77

And tonight is the Hunter's Moon.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Oct 28, 2023 9:21:44 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

I was also amused by the Xanatos quote from "The Edge" during the discussion about the pending live-action television series. Good advice, certainly - and it sounds all the more fun delivered by Mr. X.

(I'm still curious about how they're going to handle the title - "Gargoyles", plural - if they have just one gargoyle in it, namely Goliath. The simplest solution I can think of is that their description - which could always change, of course - indicates that Goliath will be searching for information on what happened to the rest of his kind, so the rest of the gargoyle species could be viewed as "present in spirit", even if no others show up in present-day Manhattan.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Oct 27, 2023 8:24:21 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

Getting caught up quicker and quicker -- and going to lose steam next week, as I'll be out of town doing work stuff.

I have a little card box around here with various character bios and references in it, that I really started about 10 years back to try to keep track of who was who and where they showed up. It was a thrill to open it and add a new card a couple of weeks back, but I can see I'm still going to have to do a little studying to keep up with who's who.

Onward to #10, and this time having read back in the comments first:
[SPOILER] Katana's been a great mystery to me ever since the ending of "Clan Building" and I agree that it's great to see more of her coming out. I had the notion in mind that she was more of a fighter than we've really seen, and the implication that her home clan saw some of that in her is intriguing, even as she disclaims its defining her. We've seen her quiet strength already in the Halloween Special, and it is admirable. I still suspect she will be quite impressive if we ever see her in full combat, assuming she ever needs to go there.

Elisa's speech confessing her love for Goliath is terrific, but Goliath's look in the panel right before it is telling. He's dedicated to protecting her, and he knows -- or, really, he fears -- this is going to do her harm.

Ah, Margot. Let's get this out of the way: her argument stinks. I mean, pheeeyew. She spends no time in the previous issue addressing the question of sapience and focuses on dangerousness, which is not in issue before the court; and now, given a chance to question one of Goliath's most intimate friends, spends her time hammering on witness bias rather than prying into what Elisa has just revealed. Not even a, "But Detective, many people love their cats. That doesn't make them sentient, now, does it?" I don't care what else went on with the judge. There's a dentist in California who could make a more compelling case. She deserved to lose most heartily. She didn't bother to engage with the case before the court. She just decided to be horrible. Sorry to rant briefly, but it's been nagging me since the previous issue.

Wow, is Margot bad at this.

As to the effect of the case, I'm not sure there would actually be much precedential value at this level, if I'm understanding things right. I'd say, "but who cares? It's comics court," but it does make me think that if the state were to take an appeal, which *could* be precedential, that would set up for the other gargoyles to have a reliable, durable, degree of rights. Because I can't see Judge Roebling's decision getting reversed on such a craptacular case as Margot made -- sorry, sorry, I'm done -- under just about any circumstances.

Anyway.

The center spread ought to be a poster as it is a beautiful spread of most of our characters, including two poor thugs who don't seem to have been able to get their masks off.

Goliath's smile on the judge's ruling that he has human rights is terrific; very subtle.

Bit of a shock to see the word "verity" coming back up again here. One wonders what sort of thing is echoing around in time to drive that choice of wording.

The press mob outside the courthouse suggests to me that the next difficulty Goliath and company are going to face is that, having been revealed so fully to the human population, they are becoming a spectacle. (This comes through in the Halloween Special too.) We don't get too much of it here, but it strikes me that they may yet get to a point of wanting to hide from the publicity. It'll be an interesting few years for them coming up.

And for Elisa. Goliath's obviously distracted at the end, here, but it's plausible that he's also going to need to process how he relates to Elisa, at least a bit. It's just as likely that he can't quite face having thrown her to the wolves to save himself (even though that's not quite what happened).

A strong wrap-up for this story and it'll be interesting to see what comes of the other lines that are running alongside it over the next couple of issues.
[/SPOILER]
morrand - [morrand276 at gmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, Oct 27, 2023 6:56:06 pm EDT from 99.74.15.252

Here's a scan of Greg Weisman's recent interview teasing "Gargoyles Quest"

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F9do1TeXkAA9Wy1?format=jpg&name=large

From the November issue of Previews.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Fri, Oct 27, 2023 2:50:24 pm EDT from 67.189.167.107

KATE> A good rule of thumb is to not take "Future Tense" too literally. It's foreshadowing things, of course... not everything, not even most things. But what we do get is essentially a twist.

i.e. evil Lexington... probably foreshadows where Brentwood is going.
The Xanatos Program of Future Tense... I believe that's what Coyote is going to evolve into by Gargoyles 2198

The clock tower got destroyed but... that's hardly too difficult to guess, the clan had many enemies and it wasn't too outside the realm of possibility to guess some might find out that's where the clan was living and destroy it.

As for Brooklyn's new look... my theory on that one is that Puck wasn't guessing it or predicting it, but thanks to TimeDancer, Puck has already seen Brooklyn in that get up. So he threw it in there.

We know an Eyrie Pyramid is coming. But for all we know, Xanatos might already have very long term plans for that and as such Puck threw it into the illusion. Maybe the Ultra-Pack upgrade is already in the early planning stages.

As for the rest... well, we'll just have to see. I think there will continue to be reasonable explanations for some of what Puck threw in there that comes true and some mysteries.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Fri, Oct 27, 2023 9:54:23 am EDT from 67.189.167.107

It's a pleasure to see the podcast getting talked about here! I first saw it popping up a couple times on the subreddit, but didn't pay it much attention. But now I'm a few episodes in and it's great for my trips on the road! I've got a lot of material to get through before I'm caught up.
Ed> [SPOILER] Haven't we already learned the outcome of Xanatos through the future stuff we've gotten? Or is all of that to be taken with a grain of salt? [/SPOILER]
Kate
posted @ Fri, Oct 27, 2023 9:36:38 am EDT from 172.59.33.30

Wow, this Voices from the Eyrie was a real banner episode. I mean, I feel like they all are, but I particularly loved hearing from Dennis Woodyard and getting so much interesting background. Among the things I loved in the discussion:

- David Warner just doing both characters. I really wish I could have been there to see him get that script for the first time - and I wonder if he ever knew it was a response to his great work in Season 1.

- I didn’t know any of the animation was done in Brazil either. From the way Greg talks, it sounds like it wasn’t a full episode so presumably it’s one of the main studios who used Brazil for, I guess, pick-up work. Complete speculation but there have been historically quite close ties between Brazil and Japan so I would guess one of the Japanese episodes.

- Dennis’ attempts to get an Emmy for Kath Soucie - YES! I think even for me, she’s such an underrated performer. I’m of course used to how great Keith, Sally, Ed, Jeff and the whole crew are but when you stop and think about the sheer number of absolutely iconic characters Kath Soucie brought to life it’s startling. And even across other cartoons I was watching at the time - Sally Acorn, Kanga, Morgana and I’m sure many others. But I think while I had intellectually realised that she was the voice of so many characters, I’d never stopped to think when watching this episode that so many of the voices were Kath’s and the reason is that they are so different, so distinctive, so resonant, so unique and powerful that it completely disappears. She’s just amazing.

- Greg mentioned something I always loved about ‘Gargoyles’ which was the “to be concluded” ends. The traditional “to be continued” tags have largely died out now because everything is serialised and actually I don’t think even if they appeared anyone would bat an eyelid now because it seems obvious. But in those days where serialisation was extremely rare, the “to be continued” ending was this incredible promise of scope and size and epicness and then the “to be concluded” tag just elevated that even more.

- Not a surprise but nice to confirm: Quest #1 was written before Here in Manhattan #12. This means that Pasquale Qualano has presumably had a good few months’ lead time on the art which hopefully will make sure the book continues to be broadly on time. No word yet on the length of this arc… still hoping for 12.

I don’t usually watch them but I made a point of watching the video on this to see Dennis’ designs. Doubt I’ll watch usually as the audio are just more convenient but it’s good to have the option.

Matt: Great review as ever. [SPOILER] I really like your reading of Katana. To be fair to Fox, we have an advantage: she probably hears from Preston relatively often whereas we can assume there’s a plot point motivating it. [/SPOILER]

Todd: Wow, yes, nice catch about the [SPOILER] Musketeers [/SPOILER].

Kate: [SPOILER] I’m assuming that’s just how George Kambadais drew him but it would be kind of interesting if the man who most sought immortality showed more distinctive signs of ageing as the years progress. I doubt the story will ever be told but I think I'm more fascinated by David's final end than any other character. [/SPOILER]
Ed
posted @ Fri, Oct 27, 2023 6:58:52 am EDT from 195.110.171.60

Good to hear Dennis Woodyard on Voices from the Eyrie. As with all the guests so far, he's a pleasure, and his perspective and experience were really interesting to hear...and the production art was a welcome bonus. One interesting bit of trivia from Weisman is that they switched from editing on film in season 1 to editing digitally on season 2. I'm a geek, so that kind of stuff is always fascinating for me.

Greg also mentioned that parts of one episode were animated in Brazil. Does anyone know what episode that might have been? I know there were animation studios in Japan, South Korea, China (Hong Ying), the Philippines (Toon City), Taiwan (Wang), and Thailand (Wang's Thai branch assisted on "Awakening: Part Two"), but I'm blanking on which episode might have outsourced work to Brazil.
Craig
posted @ Thu, Oct 26, 2023 11:50:04 pm EDT from 24.46.160.30

Just listened to the "Voices from the Eyrie" podcast on "Avalon Part Two". Very good, as usual. (The site shows some of Dennis Woodyard's art, including rejected character designs for Oberon and Titania (and another that looks like King Arthur in a very different outfit).) Much about Angela's introduction, the Archmage's time loop (and more praise of David Warner's performance), and Elisa's detective skills (figuring out things like the Magus's unrequited feelings for Princes Katharine, and the one who picks up on the mention of the "Sleeping King" - a line which definitely excited me the first time I saw this episode).
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Oct 26, 2023 10:22:40 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

Hey all. Slow to get this review out since #10 dropped at a particularly bad time. I'm a teacher having a very busy year and Wednesday-Friday we have both classes and parent-teacher conferences! So, busy. I'm actually writing all of this between conferences! ANYWAY, without further ado, here are my thoughts on #10 having talked about it only a little with a couple other folks.

[SPOILER] - I love that Katana is our narrator this time. Between this and the Halloween Special, she's having a great month for getting more fleshed out. And I of course love the gargoyle culture stuff we got regarding her "Naming Ceremony". This seems to be the unique way that Clan Ishimura addresses naming of their hatchlings. Of course, we don't know how old Katana was when this ceremony took place. But I really appreciate how well this ties into Brooklyn's reassurance to Katana that "Egwardo" is a placeholder until they get a feel for the hatchling as presumably they did with Nashville. Interesting also is that Nashville pointed out to his friends that gargoyles don't traditionally have names since from his mom's side they traditionally do and his father's side adopted them as well. But I guess it's still a new thing for the Wyvern Clan survivors.

- Quick little scene of what appears to be the Three Musketeers. I don't know enough about them to speculate, but its always fun to see more of the vignettes of the TimeDance.

- And we are back where we left off with the Manhattan Clan (minus Coldstone and the beasts) watching the Hearing on TV. And Elisa is on the stand. I'm glad it is canon now that gargoyle-human romances are unheard of. I actually thought Brook/Katana might've encountered the one other instance that Greg W has mentioned, but apparently not. Katana is reading more and more to me as a very cautious character. Contrasts well with the boldness of Brooklyn. Here she sees Elisa's testimony as not potentially liberating or exciting as Lex did, but as potentially painful.

- As for Elisa. This feels like her biggest character moment since Invitation Only/Masque/Bash. I'm somewhat surprised that she so casually mentions Goliath's aid in apprehending criminals and fighting crime as this seems like it could jeopardize the validity of those convictions and her standing on the force. But, of course, the real shocking moment is her declaration of love to Goliath on the stand. On live TV. Brooklyn summed it up perfectly. Wow. Just... wow. A huge moment for Elisa and a huge leap in her relationship with Goliath, but also her friends, her family, her coworkers. I have to compare it to coming out of the closet. it is just such a brave leap. Incredible. And again, Katana shows caution. Was that wise? Can they be accepted?

- I like Dino's admiration for Elisa here. He recognizes her bravery and doesn't deny her love. But he also has no illusions that their love can really do anything for them (or for his hostages).

- Back in the courtroom. Margot and Elisa square off a bit. I love that Margot pulls in Chavez. I imagine that Chavez and Elisa are going to have a long talk after all of this and clear some stuff up. Some oddities (like Elisa's six month disappearance during the World Tour) might be cleared up for Chavez and maybe their relationship could even improve long term, but short term Chavez has to be pretty annoyed. Margot has done a good job calling Elisa's testimony and judgement into question, even to those who are "on Elisa's side".

- Meanwhile, in the bedroom of Xanatos, Owen pops in with a call for Fox from Vogel. I'm amused by the idea of a conversation between Owen and Vogel, especially if the latter was ever informed on Owen's true nature and the inspiration he found in Vogel. Not today though. Vogel wanting to talk to Fox and Renard's condition in #9 made me immediately suspect that his health was in bad shape. Odd that Fox didn't pick up on that. Fortunately, Titania appears in the mirror to clue her in. Was not expecting a Titania appearance, so that was pretty fun. Also, I smirked at Fox's "best show on television" line. Fox, as a professional of the small screen, has some cool perspective here, but it also feels like a meta nod to the Gargoyles series. Or at least that's how I saw it.

- Time for closing statements. I actual see Margot's point fairly well. Even if you accept all of Tobe's points and the testimonies of Goliath's allies, Goliath isn't human. They are not there to redefine humanity. That said, I think Tobe makes an even stronger and more poignant statement to follow. Gargoyles are not going away and history will examine this moment one way or another. He really nailed it. Kudos to Greg for writing such compelling scripts!

- And then we get the cast of Here in Manhattan waiting for the final ruling. Quite a shot. Can't get over the wide range of feelings this cast would have about the results. What will this ruling really mean to Thailog, for instance? It's interesting who we see and who we don't Beth Maza is here though she hasn't appeared before in Here In Manhattan. Same with Billy and Susan and their parents. But Delilah isn't here and I find that odd. Talon looks absolutely pissed, I assume that is at Elisa's revelation. There will be lots of interesting fallout here for sure.

- The verdict is out. As Roebling pointed out, Goliath's sentience is clear. I don't think anyone expected that wouldn't be granted. As for the second point, Goliath's human rights, I wasn't sure where we would end up on that one. I might've guessed that was a leap too far at this time, despite Roebling's history with the gargoyles. I thought that perhaps that was a step we wouldn't fully accomplish until the GMPA gets passed down the line. This really seems like a solid win for our heroes! And the clan is thrilled and relieved. Gnash even tosses out a Jalapeña! Love that Coldfire immidiately gets on the comm to tell her mate. His response is odd to me. I can't decide if he really means it or not. Like it almost feels sarcastic. Interesting.

- Goliath is released and an instant celebrity. Reminded me instantly of the Season 1 thought that the gargoyles were not really going to hide, but also not going to hold press conferences. Goliath isn't interested, but it would be in everyone's best interest if a gargoyle did sit down to be interviewed. Clear the air, answer some questions, make the public feel more comfortable. Not today though, Owen, the constant messenger in this arc, gives Goliath some news and the gargoyle takes off.

- Then we come to a scene that kinda surprised me. Xanatos payed off Roebling. This seems right in character for X, but not Roebling. Still, we don't know a ton about the judge really or about his history with Xanatos. This is very shady though. And perhaps unneccesary? I feel weird about it. Kinda cheapens Tobe and Goliath's win. But I still think the win was reasonable without the pay off. I dunno. Gonna have to think on this one.

- And finally, at Fortress 2, we see that the suspicions are true: Renard is dying. I hope Renard and Goliath get to clear the air about Renard's final play before the end. Their friendship was too important to end on a dark spot. We'll see. When I read "The beginning of the end", I said out loud "Never the End!" but it looks like it is for Renard. What will it mean for Vogel and Fox and Titania and Cyberbiotics. We will see.

- A really solid story with some awesome character moments. I really enjoyed this one! Two issues left to tie up some loose ends: Renard, the kidnapping, Dino Dracon, the Trio's fracturing, and the Commitment Ceremony. [/SPOILER]Looking forward to it! And looking forward reading all of your thoughts!
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"
posted @ Thu, Oct 26, 2023 5:00:28 pm EDT from 204.184.178.1

Craig: [SPOILER] I'm pretty glad Greg didn't go with the cliché overwrought closing statement here. The piece still has that really grungy Hill Street Blues tone.

I don't know if I'm all that bothered by Xanatos bribing Roebling to... basically do the right thing. The whole trial's a total farce. The whole idea of a bunch of humans debating and arguing about whether a living, sentient creature deserves rights, or whether they can think or have "humanity" is cruel as far as I'm concerned. But I understand that it's extremely unethical, but the I think the morality overrides any legal ethical question at all. (Which I think is the core of Tobe's argument by the end of the trial -- let's be on the right side of history)

I'm sure this isn't the end of it all, though.

Also re: Craig. I THINK Coldstone is being sarcastic with his "largesse" comment. I hope he is. He's kind of a tough one to read.

The Owen hand btw looks KINDA like he drew it as a regular hand, someone realized that Owen's left hand is his stone one (which is a fist) so he just coloured over it. [/SPOILER]
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Thu, Oct 26, 2023 2:17:36 pm EDT from 70.27.161.86

#10 spoilers: [SPOILER] Someone pointed this out to me, but is Xanatos' hair line receding in the new issue? Poor guy, you think he'd be the type to get hair plugs? [/SPOILER]
Phoenician> I've enjoyed that too. I can't wait to see who'll pop up next!
Ed> [SPOILER] I suppose so. It's quite fascinating to see a character that thinks like her. [/SPOILER]
Kate
posted @ Thu, Oct 26, 2023 2:04:11 pm EDT from 72.49.138.52

My thoughts on #10:

[SPOILER] Another good issue. We got some of the things we were expecting (Margot bringing up Elisa keeping Goliath's involvement in police work secret from her boss - and I'm certain that Chavez will be wanting a few words with her), as well as some surprises. I particularly liked Tobe Crest's summing-up speech.

And Goliath discovers one drawback of being recognized as sentient; now all the reporters in town want an interview with him! (I got a particular smile about one asking if he could turn to stone on demand for them, and another asking if fairies, Bigfoot, and the Loch Ness Monster are also real. Well, we know that two out of the three are - though "Oberon's Children" is a better term for them - all the more so because, in the actual legends about them, they did *not* like being called fairies.)

We get an indication of everyone else watching (at least in Manhattan), the Dracons (I noticed Dino's "Maza and the Monster" line; a clear parallel to you-know-what), the Xanatoses (until they get certain news) - and the big panel as they're waiting for the ruling showing Elisa's parents, Beth, the Labyrinth clan (oddly, no sign of Delilah), Billy and Susan's family), Tony Dracon and Brod, Thailog, Sevarius, etc. all apparently viewing the broadcast.

And Renard's passing is about to take place. I'd suspected that after we saw the condition he was in, last issue, but it's genuinely here - and Titania's back, both as herself and Anastasia. I suspect we're in for a moving farewell next issue.

We get another "Xanatos twist" with the revelation that he'd influenced the judge; evidently the guy wasn't taking any chances. Though I'd still like to think that what Tobe said made a difference as well. (And we got a great scene of Goliath and Tobe shaking hands afterwards.)

Incidentally, we had a case of "Never trust a trailer" here; the solicitation stated that we'd see the trio out to rescue somebody (presumably Rosaria and Peter), but that didn't take place in this issue. It'll probably have to join the solicitation for #1 about the various factions out to steal a gargoyle egg.

(And, as I mentioned about the preview pages, my speculation, based on a line of Elisa's in #1, that Brooklyn met the Three Musketeers during his Timedancing has been confirmed.)

[/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Oct 26, 2023 8:56:17 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

Phoenician >
[SPOILER]
The short answer is, I'm not entirely sure, because in my experience, no attorney would ever waive closing argument...it's just terrible strategy. (Most judges would view it as disrespectful and arrogant.) I think in the story, the idea is that Tobe is using this as a flex ("I'm so obviously right, I don't even need to tell you why I'm right"), and Margot takes a similar approach by giving an extremely brief argument. Realistically, in a hearing with such complex matters of first impression, both sides would have given VERY VERY long (and likely very dry) arguments which wouldn't play very well in a comic book. From a narrative standpoint, Greg had 22 pages to tell his story, and chose to forego Tobe's closing so that Tobe could have the more dramatic last word on rebuttal, so we just have to accept it as a storytelling convention with some suspension of disbelief (which I'm fine with). I THINK that in NY, even if Tobe had waived closing argument, he would still be permitted to give a rebuttal of specific arguments raised by Margot. But again, I'm not entirely sure of that, since it's not a common occurrence. I did a brief search and didn't find any case law on the matter, but I didn't look all that deeply.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Thu, Oct 26, 2023 3:57:48 am EDT from 24.46.160.92

Todd: Thanks for pointing out St Crispin’s Day - always enjoy your poetic interventions!

Craig: [SPOILER] I’m kind of intrigued about the solicitations too. The “Here in Manhattan” egg description is especially striking as it’s a really good teaser, just not a teaser for the story being told. The #11 one is surely flat-out wrong. Is it a case of the stories changing in the telling or Dynamite employees hyping around it sight-unseen? Was the “Miracle Child” story originally about the theft of the egg and it was changed to the kidnapping of Maggie late on? I actually love the idea of fake solicitations to throw people of the scent and I’m all for that (“The Walking Dead” even solicited three issues to hide the fact that the comic was ending) but it doesn’t necessarily feel like that’s what’s happening here.

And certainly for this issue, I feel like “the verdict is in - life for the gargoyles will never be the same after this one” is more honest, more exciting and yet simultaneously more vague than what was teased. Or maybe Greg needed more space for the trial and so it ended spilling into #10 (in which case I guess #11 may contain the material teased for #10? If so, I wonder how the gap will be closed - I wonder if there’s even any chance we’ll get extra pages in #12?).

I understand Crest’s obligation is to his client and as ever it’s fascinating reading your assessment and insight. Still, it came across as cold - a strong hint, as you suggest, to his likely employer… presumably, Xanatos. Although then again, would Xanatos bother funding a lawyer if he’d already paid off the judge? I suppose he would because the true court he’s interested in is public opinion.

You’ve got a point about naming although I don’t know how practical a delay would be. Interesting note about Tobe Crest… would be interesting if he was a Musketeer. I’m not sure if the similarity is intentional though - the facial hair is subtly different and the colour is too. This could be a “the nose is all wrong” moment but I don’t necessarily think they’re the same. Although Tobe Crest is a great character and it would be great if he had a big Gargoyles Universe backstory.

I suspect at this point Greg is holding the Goliath/Elisa discussion over for #12 (but I certainly agree one has to be in the post). [/SPOILER]

Greg: [SPOILER] Oh man - excellent, excellent post. I was just admiring how the trail of breadcrumbs to this ending has been in plain sight for at least 16 years if not longer. We knew Xanatos had cultivated a relationship with Roebling. We knew there was a trial story somewhere down the track. I don’t know if we knew but we could certainly assume given the way Greg works that Roebling would be the judge. And of course Xanatos would want his fingers on the scales of justice. But you connected up so many more dots. Just as a storytelling coup, it's amazing that everything that looked like it could be a narrative reach (like his non-recusal) was just a clue right in front of us.

But the ethical question of how the victory is achieved makes it feel so much more real. The best kind of stories are unforeseeable ahead of time but feel inevitable in hindsight and this is definitely one of those. It’s kind of heartbreaking yet darkly funny how naively thrilled Angela was at Goliath being “right about humans” when the victory was achieved through sheer bribery. It also reflects how hard-won these kind of victories would be and doubtless will continue to be. [/SPOILER]

Kate: [SPOILER] Ha, I kind of love that about Margot. She’s a love to hate character for sure but I do find her fascinating. [/SPOILER]

Phoenician: [SPOILER] Nice spot about Kai. [/SPOILER]
Ed
posted @ Thu, Oct 26, 2023 3:16:12 am EDT from 31.94.5.0

Thoughts on #10 before the day is done here: [SPOILER] I'm used to covers not matching the plot of the story, but I do admit to wanting some Trio reuniting moments. Ah well. Still some issues before this arc ends.

Looks like Katana was rookery sibling with an ancestor of Kai.

And I'm excited and curious if these are in fact Dumas's Three Musketeers or just musketeers that inspired the novel. All things are true; few things are accurate most likely.

Angela's folding her wings like Demona in "Future Tense". Is that something we've seen before?

A Spectacular Spider-Man reference with Brooklyn's "Wow. Just . . . Wow."

There's a lot of legal shenanigans in Margot's cross examination with Elisa, but I'm surprised she didn't grab on to Elisa's response of "We thought it best to keep his role a secret" I guess she intended it to mean her and Goliath, but I think that could have been fodder for Margot to accuse Elisa's partners of also keeping secrets -- with Matt the most at risk. In any event, Margot's line of questioning was dismissed, but that doesn't mean Captain Chavez won't follow that lead in the next issues.

I forget who was keeping track, but Owen finally gets some lines! As do Fox, David, and . . . Titania. Dang. Really wasn't anticipating Halcyon's passing in this arc. But here we are, back on Fortress 2.

I'm curious, Craig, about the logistics about waiving closing statements and still opting for a rebuttal statement in the context of a hearing. Can a defendant (or plaintiff) still get a rebuttal if they opted for a closing statement? It reminds me of a hilarious Drunk History where they recounted a lawyer opts to not give a closing argument, which by law denied William Jennings Bryan a chance to give HIS closing argument, which was ultimately tactical in persuading the public who was listening by radio.

Anyways, of all the reactions from those watching the hearing, Tony's might be my favorite. He just looks so stunned from the whole situation, and I suspect just as surprised that all teasing about "that Beauty's sweet on that Beast" is now confirmed for all the world to see. Billy and Susan's parents reactions have me at least surprised they are letting their kids watch the hearing. And the Maza family reactions are over the place, with Talon's especially telling. (and I guess Beth finally arrived in New York following Michael's birth).

Roebling's air quotes is a great panel. And now Roebling's role in all of this. We've speculated in the past year on why he didn't recuse himself, and whether his interactions with Goliath in 1995 and 1996 would ever be brought to light. I've wondered with many here on whether Goliath would get a partial victory in this hearing -- declared sentient but lacking legal rights or something to that effect -- and thus my concern that Goliath's release wasn't necessarily part of the hearing's calculus.

And I know we worked out the logistics of Roebling's relationship with Xanatos. And Xanatos's role with the Illuminati. And whether the Illuminati had an interest or not in this hearing, or if Xanatos was just acting in his own interests. Such a hearing with such global ramifications should go all the way to the Supreme Court, we all figured.

And now we learn that its all wrapped up in such a neat, little, underhanded bow. Roebling gets his retirement fund from Xanatos. After all the wondering if Goliath was going to be fairly heard in court, we get the revelation that the scales were in fact tipped; but in Goliath's favor! Or, much more accurately, in Xanatos's favor. Any moral victory that Goliath just achieved feels truly deflated (in a dramatic irony way) knowing it was the latest of Xanatos's machinations. I will be curious of the Manhattan Clan's reactions -- especially Goliath and Elisa -- if those details were ever revealed. And yes, as Ed pointed out, since "Nightwatch" he's been more effective in getting what he wants from the Manhattan Clan than he has ever managed in the previous seasons.

Thank you, GregX, for pointing out Roebling's other blind eye moments with Xanatos. I'm reminded of a line in The Wire: "He's a hack, but he's my hack."

No, "Give it a rest, Margot" -- well, it's not her moment right now.

Matt's working a sweat from the shock collar and chains and shackles, but there's no hint about his thoughts to Elisa's testimony in that face. I hope it is something addressed before the arc is over.

Hudson's reaction -- the relief he shows for the "Son of his Heart" is another wonderful panel. I'm wondering if he's contemplating just how much has progressed (and digressed and progressed again) since his own interactions with humanity as far back as 971.

I'm still curious how Antoinette managing to get into the Eyrie Building plays in all this.

Is that an art error for Owen's "eccentric prosthetic"?

Still feeling the anniversary vibes. What a year it's been. Can't wait for more! [/SPOILER]

Kate: Welcome to the Comment Room! GargWiki is definitely a go-to resource, but I've also found it helpful (and fun) to see just where real-life interacts with the series, especially in regards to the Scottish Kings. I don't think its that much of an exaggeration to think that Greg Weisman's killed about as many Scottish royals as Shakespeare has done with England's monarchs d:
Phoenician
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."
posted @ Thu, Oct 26, 2023 2:46:53 am EDT from 68.2.64.232

Just got done reading the new issue. Man that was pretty good, definitely my favorite so far.
[SPOILER] For spoiler thoughts, wow do I hate Yale. I know that's kinda the point but it truly baffles my mind how someone could be that arrogant in the face of a creature clearly capable of full thoughts and speech. Also, Katana as the narrator choice was a bit strange to me though. Maybe it's because her character hasn't fully sunk in for me yet. And wow, Renard's gonna go ain't he? I know it got mentioned as a thing that'd happen in the Season 3 Greg wanted, but still. And yeah it's been brought up already but a reunion moment for Elisa and Goliath would've been good. [/SPOILER]
Kate
posted @ Wed, Oct 25, 2023 9:40:38 pm EDT from 72.49.138.52

[SPOILER]
Here's an interesting question...assuming that Tobe Crest is as noble as he seems to be, what would he do if he learned down the line that the judge was bribed? Particularly if (as most of us are probably assuming) the person who bribed the judge also happened to have paid Tobe's tab? Legally and ethically, he is compelled to report it, and I believe he would...but I imagine he would be very ambivalent about it. The ruling would then be voided and the case would have to be retried by another judge, which would obviously be a huge risk. And one imagines dear old David would have some kind of contingency play where he could make it look like Crest was in on it the whole time, in order to dissuade Crest from doing the right thing. (Yes, I just want to see more Tobe Crest.)
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Wed, Oct 25, 2023 9:17:41 pm EDT from 24.46.162.7

So much to say about this issue, but for now I'll focus on this angle:

[SPOILER] Let's be 100% honest, Roebling had previously met Goliath at Xanatos's wedding... and at his Halloween masque and already kind of liked the guy. He was not an impartial judge... so ethically, he should have recused himself.

And while we like Roebling, he seems like a nice and personable guy... that final scene confirms one thing: he's corrupt as hell. I mean, aside from not recusing himself, let's look at the history:

He conducts Xanatos's wedding and sees Xanatos in his armor... months after that armor and similar robots ran rampage across the city and stole the Eye of Odin. Would Xanatos have brought him to the castle to conduct his wedding, put him in a room with two gargoyles, and an armor that connects him to criminal theft and assault?

The Halloween masque took place a few nights after "Hunter's Moon" when gargoyles were wanted... Roebling sees Goliath there and doesn't inform anyone. Yes, we're on Goliath's side but Roebling is a officer of the court... ethically, he should be informing police. Of course, so should Elisa... and we might see where that goes.

Roebling all but admits that despite knowing Goliath, he held his nose before giving his ruling, that he likely was going to rule against him anyway had it not been for Xanatos paying him off... arbitrating those lucrative corporate cases.

Roebling is a corrupt officer of the court. Usually when those are presented in fiction, it's as antagonists and villains. In this case, he was corrupt on our side... which is infinitely more interesting. Ethically, he's in the gutter.

Does it taint the victory? Yes... it does. And it's that kind of nuance that makes Weisman's stories so fascinating. Will there be fallout down the line? Maybe. [/SPOILER]
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Wed, Oct 25, 2023 8:31:05 pm EDT from 67.189.167.107

[SPOILER]
Just realized that was Matt carrying the manacles, not a court officer! I missed the GTF shoulder logo.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Wed, Oct 25, 2023 2:47:06 pm EDT from 24.46.161.5

Gargoyles #10:

[SPOILER]
The best issue yet. These get better and better. A ton to talk about here. I've developed the bad habit of staying up until midnight to read the issue as soon as it releases. It's like Christmas morning!

This is by far the most an issue has diverged from the solicitation (it really has nothing to do with it at all). The dangers of writing those things so many months before the issue is even written, I suppose. I assume that during the scripting process, Greg realized the courtroom drama needed more room to breathe. I for one was very happy, as I very much enjoy the legal aspect, and even as a kid, I always preferred the character drama of the show to the physical action. When I read the solicitation for #10, it felt jarring to me that a chunk of the precious page count would be taken away from Elisa's testimony and given to the rescue of two characters we barely know. I suppose that other readers who are looking for more traditional comic book action were likely disappointed to find that the solicitation was misleading, but I was pleasantly surprised.

For that matter, we still haven't seen anyone go after the egg, as mentioned way back in the solicitation for #1. I wonder if that was deliberate misdirection?

As someone who has been a bit cold on the narration device (and in particular how some characters appeared pretty arbitrarily matched to the stories they narrate), Katana was a great choice for this one. While she doesn't have anything to do action-wise in the story, her relative outsider perspective is very valuable, and echoed many of the concerns I felt as I read the story (thoughts and feelings that those closer to Goliath and Elisa might not have articulated as easily due to their deep investment). And it's of course great to get a little more of her backstory as well.

Ed > I don't necessarily agree with your assumption that naming was not natural to the Ishimura clan in Katana's time just because the naming ceremony took place later in life. Culturally, I've always thought it's a little silly that we humans name our children in infancy (in some cases, before they're even born). It makes a lot of sense to wait until you've gotten a sense of who a person is before providing them an appellation (and also has the benefit of allowing the person in question to have input), and perhaps that is just the Ishimura clan's way.

It would be nice to know precisely what commonalities Katana's clan perceived her to have with the blade of that name. Precision? Deadliness? A tendency to cut to the heart of the matter? Reflective? :)

Interesting take on the Three Musketeers. It appears that one is a woman (Porthos?), and another appears to be a man of color (he's the spitting image of Tobe Crest).

Goliath's look as Elisa recounts their first meeting is precious. Echoing what's already been said, it was very affecting seeing that scene from "Awakening" replayed on the 29-year (!!) anniversary date. Very fortuitous timing there.

I do question how self-righteous (almost smug) Elisa is drawn when she recounts "working with" Goliath on many cases. She has to realize that her disregard for protocol doesn't reflect well on her in this legal setting.

Ed > Re: Tobe "hanging Elisa out to dry." Crest's strategy here is solely to provide zealous representation for his client, and to bring to light facts that will benefit Goliath. He doesn't care about Elisa or any other collateral damage; that's some other attorney's problem. The job of being an advocate can be very compartmentalized and focused. Of course, even given that, one could question the logic of opening the Pandora's Box that he does (as Margot herself notes, Elisa's feelings arguably taint her credibility and could make her testimony next to worthless)...but that's a matter of strategy. Crest makes a calculated gamble based on the judge he's in front of, and it turns out that it paid off. (I sincerely doubt he would have taken this risky tact with a jury.) Even better, judges' findings of credibility are rarely overturned on appeal...since the hearing/trial judge was in the room with the witness and observed their demeanor in real time, great deference is given to their finding. So of all the things that may be appealed in the future, Elisa's credibility is very unlikely to be one. Crest just had to get past the hurdle of getting Roebling to credit her testimony.

And yes, Elisa would have had access to NYPD counsel before testifying. Whether or not she chose to avail herself of that.....my guess, knowing Elisa, would be "no."

Also Ed > Interesting point about Matt's absence in the Halloween Special. I did note that, but figured Greg simply wanted to give the "screen time" to characters we haven't seen as much of. It is difficult for me to imagine how Bluestone would be disciplined if Elisa wasn't...that doesn't make much sense. But it's a possibility.

As Brooklyn says...wow. What a powerful profession of love from Elisa. I did not anticipate that being put out there so clearly in this context. I could hear Salli Richardson in my head saying it, and I teared up. I'm tearing up now.

Again Ed > In general, "frail" is just a slang term meaning "woman" from the '30s / '40s which was used in a lot of hardboiled detective novels and film noir movies (a genre Greg borrows heavily from for all the Dracon stuff). Definitely politically incorrect now, given the inherent implication in the word of women being weak.

Great art from Kambadais on Elisa and Margot (and briefly on Maria) during the cross-examination. Really drove home the weight Elisa is feeling bearing down on her (and is a nice counterpoint to her overly cocky expressions I mentioned earlier during the direct). There's going to be a reckoning between Elisa and Chavez in the near future, and I'm very curious what that will look like. Chavez has given Elisa a lot of latitude in the past (disappearing for months on end, lost guns, etc.), but this....is a lot.

Very cool to see Titania! I appreciate that Greg seems to have foregone the narrative hand-holding of the early issues with all the exposition. We get this crazy mirror apparition with no context as to who it is or what's going on, and any readers not in the know are trusted to just hang tight until things inevitably become clearer for them next issue. It was also fun to see the fantasy elements overlapping with the (comparatively) down-to-earth legal drama in the same panel.

I loved Crest's speech about "history's final verdict."

That panel of...well...EVERYONE waiting on Roebling's ruling is a masterpiece. The rendering, the coloring. Gorgeous, gorgeous stuff. You can really get a sense of each individual mindset. (We even get a cameo by Slaughter and his goons Alphabet and Murray!)

Diane Maza's hair on the show was generally depicted some variation of black or bluish-grey, depending on the episode (and animation studio), but now she seems to have gone fully white! She's had a stressful couple of years.

Alright, so the identities of the folks in the Trio masks in issue 4 are pretty much confirmed at this point. "Brooklyn" is absent here because Dino is watching TV in his penthouse.

Great little character detail of Roebling removing his glasses and rubbing his eyes. You really get a sense of the weight a judge in his position would be feeling...even if his ruling is a foregone conclusion as we later learn, he also is aware of the very real consequences this will have on his career and his personal life.

I laughed at that poor court office in the background lugging away all of Goliath's heavy manacles.

And we get our first (very well-earned) "jalapeña" of the Dynamite run! Gnash has evidently been assimilated into the club.

I'm glad Hudson got his little close-up moment, registering his joy. Beyond his love for Goliath, obviously, he must be thinking how happy this victory would have made Verity.

I noted last month how "Here in Manhattan" has covered only a few days in its narrative. In particular, Goliath was only incarcerated for six or seven days. While this is remarkably fast for a legal proceeding, I can accept that the matter would be expedited due to the uniqueness and the strong public interest (I'm sure DOC didn't want the responsibility of holding Goliath any longer than absolutely necessary, for one). But this storytelling choice does take away a bit of the narrative weight. For one thing, Brooklyn didn't really get much of an opportunity to lead, and the impact of Goliath's absence on the clan wasn't really felt as strongly as it might have been if it had been more prolonged. Not that more issues had to be spent on it, but perhaps a bigger jump forward in time between issues to make his absence more profoundly felt.

It is a bit of a shame that the Halloween Special came out first and sort of spoiled the outcome of this issue, but personally, I didn't mind. I found the semi-reveal of the hearing outcome the way we got it kind of cool as a flash-forward...we have a basic idea of what happened and how things will play out over the next few months without full context. I enjoy being kept a bit off-balance. Whereas knowing the outcome (more or less) didn't detract from my enjoyment of this issue at all, because all the emotions were so rich that the actual story outcome was almost secondary.

I'm really not sure how to take Coldstone's line (especially with the pregnant pause). Is he being sincere? Sarcastic?

We still don't know for sure who bankrolled Tobe Crest, although the answer seems pretty obvious. I assume at some point, Goliath will learn the truth.

It does feel like Kambadais is forgetting about Owen's stone hand, both here and in issue 1 (where he is holding the tray). In this digital era, it seems like it wouldn't be too difficult to simply "redraw" it once the error was caught; I wonder why they settled for just coloring it grey even though the pose is blatantly wrong?

Ed > Funny observation about the gargoyles' destruction of property. I never really thought about it, but I wonder what property owners thought when they noticed all those holes in their buildings before the gargoyles were revealed to the public?

I really, really wish we'd gotten at least a small bit of dialogue between Elisa and Goliath at the end. That's my one big quibble with this issue. If I'm interpreting the previous issues correctly, they don't speak during Elisa's prison visits (in order to avoid revealing their relationship). So they haven't spoken in a week, and Elisa has now put her livelihood on the line to protect Goliath. I'd think a small reunion, a "thank you," an "I love you and I missed you" would surely be in order? I think interrupting things at that moment with the Renard storyline is just...not the best storytelling choice. But even then, Goliath could surely have taken at least a few seconds to tell Elisa why he had to leave so abruptly and to give her a hair-stroke or something. Sheesh. Men.

That Xanatos tag! I have to say, I did not call Judge Roebling being on the take (although I have in the past wondered about a judge being so cozy with David that he officiates his wedding, despite David being a convicted felon!). Roebling has seemed fair-minded and decent throughout this story, and even in that last scene, he seems to have some moral compass...it's not ENTIRELY about the money, he also feels he's done the right thing. But, apparently, he wasn't about to destroy his career for the "right thing"...it took some added incentive to ensure he'd land on his feet. And kudos to Kambadais on those Xanatos facial impressions. Gloriously smug as always.

Very excited to see where things go from here. Great work by Weisman, Kambadais, Cosby, et. al.!
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Wed, Oct 25, 2023 2:07:51 pm EDT from 24.46.161.226

Algae> Oh, that's super useful! Thanks!
Kate
posted @ Wed, Oct 25, 2023 1:08:24 pm EDT from 172.59.33.11

KATE> Gargwiki has a handy family tree of the Scottish Royal Family that might help...

https://gargwiki.net/images/e/ed/FamilyTree.JPG
Algae
'Nuff said.
posted @ Wed, Oct 25, 2023 12:11:41 pm EDT from 88.87.179.191

Thanks for the welcome and advice! I'll check out the wiki next time I get confused, and I'm sure a rewatch could help.
Kate
posted @ Wed, Oct 25, 2023 11:08:27 am EDT from 72.49.138.52

This day is called the Feast of Crispian:
He that outlives this day and comes safe home,
Will stand a-tiptoe when the day is named,
And rouse him at the name of Crispian.
He that shall see this day and live t'old age,
Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
And say 'To-morrow is Saint Crispian':
Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars
And say 'These wounds I had on Crispin's day.'
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot,
But he'll remember with advantages
What feats he did this day. Then shall our names,
Familiar in his mouth as household words
Harry the King, Bedford and Exeter,
Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester,
Be in their flowing cups freshly remembered.
This story shall the good man teach his son;
And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remember'd;
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he today that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition:
And gentlemen in England now abed
Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.

Looking forward to reading #10 in full. [SPOILER] The title feels very appropriate; after the hearing, and especially after Elisa sharing her links and especially her relationship with Goliath, "new rules" are definitely going to arise, both in-story and out. I can certainly imagine plenty of people - especially Castaway - calling her a "race-traitor". I'm also curious about Margot's response; I can't imagine her changing her mind about gargoyles any time soon (though I doubt she'd have approved of Castaway's planned attack on the Halloween party; she'd probably view it as a lawless display that would make the Quarrymen the kind of cure that's worse than the disease). [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Oct 25, 2023 9:10:36 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

Kate> MOST of the human characters from the past are pretty self-contained, it's not really useful to know that Maol Chalvim from Avalon is the grandfather of Duncan and MacBeth from City of Stone, but it's neat. I mean really, even Katherine is Macbeth's cousin and not that far removed.

The wiki should have it all laid out, but it might be a bit labyrinthine to navigate.

Really there's two periods of history the story focuses on.

Dark Ages focuses on the 970s. Where King Kenneth II, his brother Prince Malcolm and the Captain of the Guard (Robbie) rebel against King Culen and win his throne.

990s. Focuses mainly on aforementioned Prince Malcolm's daughter Katherine (who is featured in City of Stone and Avalon) as Prince Malcolm has died by this point. Eventually in season 2 we see Katherine interacting with Maol Chalvim (Kenneth II's son), the villainous Constantine (who's the son of Culen but was raised as kind of a ward by Kenneth). In the comic we see Kenneth III, who is Kenneth II's nephew via his brother Guff (who is never seen in the series) who takes the crown as he's Maol Chalvim's older cousin.

Then City of Stone skips to 1040-ish, where we see Macbeth (who is Maol Chalvim's grandson) and Duncan (also Maol Chalvim's grandson. Eventually Duncan is killed and Malcolm Canmore (called simply "Canmore" in the series so he wouldn't be confused with Prince Malcolm, which I always thought was a bit silly because Prince Malcolm wasn't a major character and they weren't featured in the same episodes at all) seeks to avenge him.

I dunno if that clears up ANYTHING, but I tried.

One thing that makes it kind of confusing is it's my understanding Scotland didn't REALLY have male primogeniture back then. It wasn't assumed that the son of the previous king would succeed the throne, which meant there was A LOT of civil wars and the crown changed hands a lot because the line of succession wasn't always clear.

#10 thoughts: [SPOILER] Don't have a ton to say about this one, things are still bubbling and brewing. I liked the whole court plot, it was well constructed and felt smart and clear. Also got a little thrill out of Margot's succinct "the court grant human rights to something that isn't human" but now it just feels silly that she went through all the other distracting hullabaloo if this is her closing statement. Isn't she just going to appeal? How likely is this ruling to hold up?

I like Xanatos paying off Roebling too. That's a nice touch. Kind of blends Xanatos being the clan's ally who wants to have a good relationship with them, while also being an unscrupulous bastard. I hope at some point in one of the comics we get another really good Xanatos caper. Those are always a lot of fun. But I don't see it coming up in Quest necessarily.

It's sort of an odd lead in to go from the court plot to this Halcyon stuff, but I always really like Goliath's interactions with Renard, so this could be interesting. It was also really cute watching Fox & Xanatos in their pajamas watching the court case on TV. Domestic bliss. Was that supposed to be Titania posing as Anastasia on Halcyon's bed? Because it didn't really look like her.[SPOILER]

Greg (from last week -- Spoilers for the preview and Halloween Special): [Spoiler]I felt a little called out last week, so I wanted to wait a bit before responding to this, but I think it's an interesting discussion. I know we once had a conversation about Demona's relationship to the clan and I think I alluded to the idea that Demona's relationship with them would change based on the quarrymen. I *sort of* stand by that to a degree (as in I think that's a possibility), but mainly what I was getting at then, and I think is still true, is that Hunter's Moon is such a *big dramatic* story, and that trying to follow that up with another big, dramatic apocalyptic story is gonna be difficult. I'm more interested in seeing another angle, another aspect of her relationship with the clan. One where maybe circumstance forces them together working towards a common goal. (They have A LOT of common foes at this point) But even then I wasn't even remotely suggesting they'd be chums or anything. Or even begrudging allies.

Like when I say their relationship might change, I was thinking something more along the lines of an injured Demona and Angela being forced to rely on each other in a desperate situation where their lives are in jeopardy. That kind of thing. Not like... her and Goliath teaming up to take on Castaway in a fight to the death. And I'm not against another story of enmity between the Clan and Demona either. I'm not totally surprised that the next big Demona story (chronologically) after Hunter's Moon, that what we're getting another Demona scheme, or even that, that hypothetical is the specific story I *want to absolutely see next*. Just that I think there's a lot of dimensions to explore.

Even a Thailog-Demona conflict story would be really cool.

Just while we're here, because I think this is interesting; I honestly just think even in season 2, Demona's relationship with Goliath and the rest of the clan changes. She goes from expressly DESIRING their deaths in season 1, to... doing it when it's convenient in season 2. I don't think she hates Goliath nearly as much in season 2, as she did in season 1. Especially after she meets Thailog. Not that she doesn't have contempt for Goliath, and maybe now she does hate him again, since he foiled her millenium long plan to wipe out the human race, but I dunno, I don't get that vibe necessarily.

And I dunno, sometimes the zeitgeist around Demona seems to be that until she attempts to turn face and take responsibility for her actions she's a completely non-dynamic character, and that seems... limited to me? Like the rise of this human-supremist group that wants to kill them all wouldn't change her perspective or the needs of the characters.

Maybe that's an unfair statement, but that's just the impression I get.

And actually, having said that, the Halloween special doesn't portray the Quarrymen as particularly threatening or effective. And the situation for the Gargoyles in Manhattan seems... pretty rosy at this point. So I don't know that the threat's there to really compel or instigate any sort of desperate situation between Demona and any of the other Gargoyles as I was kind of picturing it. Or at least envisioning it as a possibility rather.

But honestly, as cool as she is as a villain, I think Demona is a *super captivating* protagonist, even (especially?) when she's sinister and evil. And it'd be cool to see more of that. Beyond just the megalomaniacal, genocidal supervillain stuff.

One thing I'm actually *very* interested in, for Quest is, and maybe this sounds weird, but is Demona still in love with Goliath?

But I know emotions run high on this topic, so I'm hoping this isn't some flint to spark an explosive argument. Let's cross our fingers. [/SPOILER]
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Wed, Oct 25, 2023 4:53:28 am EDT from 70.27.161.86

Kate: Welcome to the fandom - amazing that people are still discovering the series! I'd recommend GargWiki (linked on my name below). It's a terrific resource although it does include Greg Weisman's previous teases (after the show and before his no spoiler policy) in blue and details on the SLG "season 3" which hopefully will be reprinted soon and have some great surprises in as well.
Ed
posted @ Wed, Oct 25, 2023 4:25:53 am EDT from 195.110.171.60

Some quick thoughts on issue 10 before I head to sleep.

[SPOILER] We get a good viewpoint from Katana for this issue; between this and the Halloween issue they've done a good job filling us in on who she and Gnash are and what they're about. I'm looking forward to more of them in the future. Her mentioning the shogunate and that her clan taught Bushido (and presumably the art of the sword) does narrow when she's from but it still leaves a lot of ambiguity. I foresee two possibilities: 1. Her time period was outside one of the many banning against the peasantry owning swords (which would place it after the Sengoku period). Or 2. that the Ishimura Clan and indeed all of Ishimura stood in defiance of the sword hunt practices enacted by Nobunaga or Hideyoshi. The fact that they taught samurai and peasants Bushido lends credence to this as class disparity was really during medieval Japan.

But we have a verdict, which was helped along by Xanatos. You know, with that last panel of him, he still has the uncanny ability of looking sinister even when doing the right thing. Old habits. But one thing that stood out to me is that Roebling may have ruled Goliath (and by extension the rest of the gargoyles) as sentient, but as we've seen here in the real world, courts can and will contradict each other for political bias and the like. We have a victory today but I have a bad feeling that this is going to be an even longer process and folks like Margot aren't going to give up their prejudices just because one judge ruling.
[/SPOILER]

I'll have more to say later. But for now, can't wait for the next issue.
Matthew
posted @ Wed, Oct 25, 2023 4:03:23 am EDT from 64.85.245.77

I'm really glad that I picked up this series when I did. I'm all caught up with the comics now and I can't wait to see more!
[SPOILER] Maybe it's because I binged all of it (the show earlier this year and the comics over the past week) but I can't seem to keep track of all of the past human characters and events. There's so many different kings, names and changes of power that it's kind of hard for me to. Is there any way I can remember it all better? [/SPOILER]
Kate
posted @ Tue, Oct 24, 2023 11:11:48 pm EDT from 72.49.138.52

****Blaise rolls a giant cake into the room. It sports two large, sparking candles: a "2" and a "9".****
No way I'm letting the series 29th birthday pass without commenting on it! Well...the television premiere, anyway--the "world premiere" of the movie version of the pilot took place on Pleasure Island a bit earlier. But most of us saw it on TV first anyway so CHEERS!

ISSUE 10 PREVIEW THOUGHTS> [SPOILER] Knowing Kambadais's cover I figured Katana would be the narrator, and I'm glad to see I was right. This whet my appetite so much: I'm surprised Elisa admits this much this quickly, and I share Katana's and Brooklyn's reactions. [/SPOILER]
I can't say much more without, I feel, potentially robbing myself of things to say with my full ramble on Thursday (Wednesday is D&D night for me this week and next, so I'll be delayed). I'll still read it Wednesday as soon as I can though, which will be after I get off work, then buy it from the comic store, then get home. It's going to be long 23 hours....

Happy reading, everyone!
****Blaise carves off a slice of cake and scarfs it down while flying out of the room.****
Blaise
"There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes."--The Doctor
posted @ Tue, Oct 24, 2023 11:05:05 pm EDT from 45.48.54.221

Amazon is so weird. I pre-order but then it seems like the pre-orders don’t deliver and I have to rebuy them. They also used to have a subscribe feature but they kept chucking me off that as well. I’m pleased that the early teething problems the digital books faced are a thing of the past now but it’s still kind of annoying. The new desktop app fixes some features but in other ways is really fiddly and annoying. They really are just a mess of a company but sadly they have the digital comic scene so sewn up. Anyway…

[SPOILER] COVER
I think this is the best Nakayama cover yet. Usually it’s the Kambadais cover that takes first place for me and his one is great but this is just gorgeous.

#10
Love using the two digits. I mean, it won’t be for long as we’re in the era of low numbers but it feels good that we’ve made it to ten.

KATANA
Katana is one of the characters I’m most intrigued to see more from so I love that we’ve had a great one-two punch of her with the Hallowe’en special and now this issue. The naming ceremony is interesting, suggesting that naming was still not natural to the gargoyles even of Japan, and that they come to only later in life (not sure how late but since she recollects it, she can’t have been much younger than a decade old in human years.). And a three musketeers cameo?

TALE AS NEW AS TIME
So much for a tale as old as time - Katana’s never seen a gargoyle/human romance. We knew it was rare but I figured if anyone might have come across another example, it’s the time dancers.

TITLE
I’m stumped. I’ve looked up three-letter words beginning with “N”. Even if it’s “myne" that just leaves one letter afterwards. Unless there’s no mnemonic and it’s a massive coincidence which feels, at this point, unlikely. Or unless the pattern changes at #12. Or continues into “Quest”. Hmmm…

BODY LANGUAGE
I love how George Kambadais shows the body language the clan. Angela and Coldfire standing, Hudson and Brooklyn almost mirroring each other - two old soldiers ready for anything. Then there’s Gnash looking very Brooklyn-esque and Katana, watching the TV but her body positioned towards her son.

RE-AWAKENING
Love seeing the scene from “Awakening” again. Great way to ring in the show’s 29th!

FRAIL
Not heard the term before but I looked it up… which luckily Disney S&P didn’t seem to!

DINO
If there’s one regret I have about the current storyline it’s that the Dino plot is on hold for yet another issue with this issue’s appearance broadly serving to comment on the other plot lines while refreshing the audience on the current status quo. It’s good to see the Dracons of course but with only two issues left and a lot of other balls in the air, I’m going to be intrigued to see how Greg gets back the considerable momentum this thread had previously.

CHAVEZ
LOVED seeing her in court. I’m still really want to see their next meeting. (Is that Tri behind her?)

DAVID AND FOX
David looking instantly shifty - love it! Fox’s brush-off is a nice parallel to “Outfoxed” and for veteran fans I guess was meant to immediately signal who it was. At least, I was expecting what it turned out to be but I loved Titania’s ‘appearance’ all the same.

THE GANG’S ALL HERE
Loved the tableau of “the family” including Thailog, the Mazas, Sarah and Family, a whole bunch of the crime families and even Demona watching.

THE VERDICT
… Seemed reasonable but a huge reach and I’m glad we see the reason why it was delivered afterwards. My only regret is we didn’t get to see Margot’s reaction to Goliath being freed. Fear? Anger? I think how she reacted then would tell us a lot about her.

THE LONG CLAWS OF THE LAW
I’m no lawyer but if Goliath has human rights, is he not also bound by human laws such as not damaging property by making claw marks as he climbs up to escape the press? I’m reminded of one of my big frustrations on the TV show ‘Angel’ which was that the enemies were literally lawyers and yet hardly ever did they use the law to their own ends (and on the rare occasions they did, it was always so much better). In fact, I recall Daniel Dae Kim’s character had a whole storyline that was instantly torpedoed which was about legal manoeuvring but I always thought it was a huge missed opportunity. I guess most people wouldn’t consider that stuff sufficiently dramatic though and although Greg cleaves to the realism I think he might stick with the poetic stuff rather than get too deep into the possible ramifications, at least for right now with so many other irons in the fire. That’s perfectly reasonable. But I’d be interested to see what ramifications this all has.

COLD
The optimistic tone did give me a note of nervousness, especially cutting to Othello. His use of the word “largesse” felt pointed. I feel like this could be paid off before #12 is done.

VERITY
Oh, what a painful line that now is. But definitely Verity would be incredibly proud of her son.

GREAT LINE
“Goliath, can you turn to stone for us now?” Love it. It’s also curious that Owen’s presence as good as confirms Xanatos’ involvement in sheltering the gargoyles. Not that it can be a big surprise - it was suspected since “Nightwatch” and it can’t take a genius to track the gargoyles back and forth on a clear night but it’s still an interesting revelation. (Also, I think Owen has been letting Alex cast spells on his stone hand - that’s the only “No Prize” explanation I can give for its appearance here.

CASH
BEST line — I absolutely creased up laughing at this. It’s so shamelessly Xanatosian. The right thing’s important but put a thumb on the scales to make sure anyway. And the way George Kambadais draws David is so deliciously sinister even though he’s ostensibly doing something… if not heroic (not sure bribing a judge is Clark Kent territory) then at least in a good cause.

VOICE ACTORS
Oh man Frakes delivers here. I mean, I know he didn’t literally but one of the great things about these incredible voice actors is that their performances are so indelible. I’ve almost become used to Keith David, Ed Asher and company but I was so pleased to “hear” Kate Mulgrew and others this issue.

THE XANATOS TAG
I’m intrigued by what David has up his sleeve and I feel like there’s one heck of a Xanatos tag due for issue 12… we haven’t had a truly great Xanatos reveal since his plan with Hacker in “Invitation Only” (he didn’t look it of course but he was kind of on the back foot in “Rock and Roll”). Here’s my spec. What does he want, what has he always wanted? The gargoyles answerable to him, controlled by him. I wonder if he’ll cut a deal with the city to be their “guardian” of sorts. He’s also managed to diminish Elisa professionally, at least for the time being, which may or may not play well for him. I’m probably way off… but we’ll see…

HALCYON
Ah, I really want to see this conversation… great to see Anastasia and Alex too. [/SPOILER]

Yet another absolutely incredible issue. Script, art, colouring - everything is on fire. My only anxiety is how on earth Greg’s going to bring all these plots to a climax with only two issues to go?? Good thing we have season 5 round the corner. Truly we’re in a new golden age.
Ed
posted @ Tue, Oct 24, 2023 8:32:29 pm EDT from 31.94.26.129

#10 teaser… [SPOILER] Wow. That’s… the whole ball of wax. From a romantic point of view, I love it - especially given how reticent Elisa has always been to acknowledge their relationship and how often she’s kicked against it (“The Gathering”, “Hunter’s Moon”, “Invitation Only”). But… I really don’t know what Crest’s strategy is here - it feels like he’s basically hanging Elisa out to dry. I sure hope Elisa has some legal advice because it looks like she just handed “get out of jail free” cards to all her big collars. Thankfully we know that as of October at least, she’s still on the force. But I really hope we get to see her and Chavez have a conversation after this. This is… a lot. Incidentally, one thing about “Trick-or-Treat” is the absence of Matt Bluestone (I think - unless I missed him somewhere?). Can his career really survive having his partner outed as in a relationship with a gargoyle — surely this makes him look either evasive or incompetent. [/SPOILER]

Love the new description for “Quest” focusing on the “new chapter” instead of the “mini-series” aspect. So hyped. Although I still wish Dynamite could move to blurbs that are high in sizzle but give less away. I mean, it’s the [SPOILER] first major Demona story in 28 years [/SPOILER] - how much teasing do people really need to get hyped?!!

Matt: [SPOILER] I agree about seeing more clans - and of course, there’s the potential to have more clans than the ones we’re familiar with already. Another aspect that interests me is that this kind of global threat will almost certainly put the resources of Xanatos at the clan’s disposal. I don’t know we’ve ever seen a major scale alliance between Xanatos and the clan - short-term ones like in “City of Stone” and of course he’s sheltering them. But this represents the chance to have a huge, global story with the clan potentially dispersed across the planet and likely to be reliant on Xanatos for transportation if nothing else (but probably a lot more) -- this promises to be all sorts of interesting. [/SPOILER]

Todd: [SPOILER] Good spot about Goliath and costumes. I can’t really imagine him in a a costume that wouldn’t make him look undignified. To be fair, Hudson and Bronx don’t dress up either. [/SPOILER]
Ed
posted @ Tue, Oct 24, 2023 2:54:51 pm EDT from 31.94.26.129

It feels like a completely different era; surely it wasn't just a year ago? I'm utterly amazed at how much new love and appreciation we've witnessed for this series, and what better time to acknowledge that than on the anniversary of "Awakening: Part One", TWENTY-NINE years ago from today!

It has been a joy to read each issue of Gargoyles: Here in Manhattan and Dark Ages: Alliance in this past year. And we had an extra Halloween Special just last week! All this new, canonical material has easily been the real highlight, but even then the fun hasn't ended! I was personally able to enjoy nine new NECA figures arrive on my doorstep, and now I await for Lexington to finish the Manhattan Clan as they were assembled by the start of "Nightwatch"!

With new stories coming into 2024 and the 30th Anniversary at CONvergence (bought my tickets the first day I could!) and new figures like Macbeth and Gabriel coming our way, I am ecstatic about what's in store, which brings me to those preview pages for #10: [SPOILER] Words can't begin to describe the shock of Elisa's testimony. It boggles my mind to think that Elisa -- Elisa, of all people -- has been publicly open about her relationship with Goliath since May of 1997. Considering their Commitment Ceremony is slated as Canon-In-Training for 1999, I guess the timing fits, but it never occurred to me that the relationship would be public knowledge before the ceremony. What wonderful growth to see from her, not only from the time Matt called her out for still keeping secrets while following up a lead in "Render Unto Caesar" but from as far back as "Her Brother's Keeper". [/SPOILER]

I have no idea what the future will hold for this fandom, and now we are in an age when that is truly an exciting prospect to consider! Never the end to all those who brought this show to our lives and continue to bring new stories to life every few weeks!
Phoenician
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."
posted @ Tue, Oct 24, 2023 10:34:12 am EDT from 72.216.220.229

MATT - Thanks for the information.

[SPOILER] Getting a look at the preview pages, I was amused to note that one of my speculations about Brooklyn's "Timedancer" adventures has apparently been confirmed.

And - yes, whoa! Elisa revealing her feelings about Goliath on live television, for the whole population in Manhattan to see. Maybe more than that - a news event on this scale is probably being covered by media around the world. And these preview pages are being released and read on the anniversary of "Gargoyles"'s premiere; now that's great timing! [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Oct 24, 2023 8:38:42 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

The first few pages of #10 have been previewed if you're interested. This is gonna be a good one.

Also, Happy 29th Anniversary to Gargoyles! Premiered 24 Oct 1994!
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"
posted @ Tue, Oct 24, 2023 8:28:52 am EDT from 204.184.178.1

Fourth.
I have something in mind to write about, but I'll wait until after the latest release this week.
Matthew
posted @ Mon, Oct 23, 2023 9:21:25 pm EDT from 64.85.245.77

Third
Phil - [p1anderson at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Oct 23, 2023 11:55:17 am EDT from 50.192.123.171

Second!
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"
posted @ Mon, Oct 23, 2023 10:19:43 am EDT from 204.184.178.1

First.

[SPOILER] With more allusions to the gargoyle names in the comedy development (Pandora and Trouble in "Trick-or-Treat"), I wonder how long it'll be before we get a mention of "Dakota" in connection with Demona. Maybe something like one of the places Demona heads to in "Gargoyle Quest" being in either North or South Dakota. (If it's in South Dakota, we might even get at least a glimpse of Mount Rushmore, which would certainly tie in with the "grand sculptures with an almost mythic element" that have featured in "Gargoyles", alongside the Sphinx, the moai of Easter Island, and the terra-cotta statues from Qin Shi Huangdi's tomb.) Or maybe Demona will adopt a new human alias with "Dakota" for her first name, after noting that too many of her adversaries know about "Dominique Destine". [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Oct 23, 2023 8:54:53 am EDT from 174.72.60.154