A Station Eight Fan Web Site

Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending May 5, 2024

Index : Hide Images

@Alex: To be sure we're on the same page, I should specify I only do paid editing work, though my rate is reasonable and would depend on what you can afford.
B

Hope everyone had a good Star Wars Day / Free Comic Book Day!
B

B> Re: My Short Story.

Sure, if you wanna go over the grammar stuff I wouldn't mind and would actually really appreciate it, mostly I'm so self-critical I was just focusing on actually FINISHING it and getting the story done without fretting too much about every little thing. Some of it may be for stylistic reasons, but I'm sure I put in a few sentence fragments and other errors anyway.

Spoilers for Quest #1: [SPOILER] Re: Angela, I get that, but I don't think that's a particularly strong character choice, at least as it's conceived of and presented. This is bad literary criticism, but, I think Miss Martian from Young Justice is sort of a much more successful attempt at that, to use an actual character example. I think we get into Miss Martian's head a bit more, whereas Angela I don't really know if I totally get her.

And then because she has so much family, there's no real strong story/character beat here. Angela doesn't need another mother, so there just isn't that strong an impetus for them to have a relationship, and Demona is *such* a terrible person that it's hard to kind of understand why Angela even really wants to get to know her I guess. I think it's just a tough relationship to stuff into a 6 issue comic mini-series when there's a bunch of other stuff to cover at the same time.

I'll be happy to admit if I'm proven wrong, of course, and it turns out to be a great arc. Because certainly I really love the Reckoning and would love to see it, I just don't necessarily expect it.

Honestly what I'd love to see, that I just don't think is feasible is a story just built around Angela from the ground up. We've never REALLY gotten one (the closest we've gotten is probably Monsters, maybe Turf). We've had stories built around Goliath and each member of the clan, Elisa's gotten multiple, Demona, Xanatos, even Macbeth, I'd even argue the Halloween special is built around Nashville. But never really one for Angela. [/SPOILER]

Alex

B - [SPOILER] Yes, I remember that "Buffy" episode, and have similarly imagined vampires in the Gargoyles Universe not being keen on Demona achieving her goals and wiping out humanity because it would deprive them of all those Happy Meals on legs. :) [/SPOILER]

Not directly connected with "Gargoyles", but I thought this would interest a lot of people here. I was browsing through the graphic novels section in the local Barnes and Noble recently, to see if any copies of "Here in Manhattan: Volume One" were on the shelf there. I didn't find any (not that it mattered, since I'd ordered it on-line and received it), but I discovered that Marvel Comics had entered into a partnership with Penguin Classics to come out with "Penguin Classics" editions in paperback of major stories from "The Fantastic Four", "Spider-Man", "The Avengers", and "X-Men".

Todd Jensen

CarumboZabumbo> [SPOILER] That theory of Demona being a mentor/corrupting influence on a young Antoinette is certainly interesting. For starters it would show a little more on the depth of Demona's plans and how she's worked for and used humans over the years. It would also call back to how in her youth she worked under and was partly corrupted by the Archmage. Another case of becoming the thing she hates sort of deal. [/SPOILER]
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

B: Thanks for your welcome.

[SPOILER] "Also, I hope Demona's finally gotten clever enough to realize it would be smarter to rule over an alive humanity than try to make them destroy themselves." Ah ah ah ah ah. No chance.

"Why is Antoinette working for her?" My current theory is that she met Demona years or maybe even decades ago, shortly after her father's death (she's 27, so we can presume she was quite young at the time); Demona considered killing Toni, but she quickly changed her mind and decided she could make use of her, so she started grooming her by being all mother-like. A Shredder/Karai situation, basically.

"Arthur yes, but Demona and Macbeth are known to have gone straight to Paris." I know, but I still consider that a (somewhat brief) World Tour; admittedly, it kinda streches the definition of the word. [/SPOILER]

CarumboZabumbo
Noi siamo le creature della notte! Noi siamo... i Gargoyles!

@ToddJensen [SPOILER] Ah, I bought that one recently but haven't read it yet. Yeah, that's also Spike's motivation for helping Buffy stop Angelus from destroying the world in "Becoming, Part II" (that, and jealousy of Angelus stealing Drusilla's affections). [/SPOILER]
B

[SPOILER] Should be "Zelazny". [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen

B - Thanks for your review of "Gargoyle Quest" #1. [SPOILER] I'd also thought that Thailog wouldn't be keen on Demona's "wipe-out-humanity" scheme, since if all the humans are gone, all that wealth and influence he's been accumulating will become useless. (There's something appealing about a villain opposing a dark scheme because it gets in the way of his own desires. Many years ago, I read a book by Zelanzky called "A Night in the Lonesome October" where a group of people - many of them famous fictional or mythical characters, though referred to only by their titles - are involved in an attempt to let H. P. Lovecraft's Great Old Ones back into the world; some are "openers", trying to let them in, and others are "closers", trying to keep them out. One of the people involved is Dracula, who reveals himself in the big confrontation to be a closer. The leader of the openers expresses his astonishment that someone with Dracula's reputation would be a closer; Dracula replies that he likes the world the way it is.) [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen

My thoughts on Quest #1:

[SPOILER] Love that there's a pro-gargoyle group as opposed to near-monolithic prejudice (like Greg Weisman's ramble about the X-Men movie, which I read the other day, pointed out mutants often got in the comics), but I'm not thrilled about some of them dressing up as gargoyles. I do wish Goliath would accept a hug, though. Antoinette also finds Goliath's voice sexy.

I thought Hudson's "fork" line was a malapropism. The lack of a face on the skiff, I think might be an oversight. Which Greg Weisman can probably come up with an in-universe explanation for anyway, which I'd like to see.

Thailog was dead wrong about Demona's plans not being a threat to his, since taking over all of humanity would definitely derail whatever he has planned. You'd think Shari would have some clue of what's really going on here. Demona can say she's been playing cat and mouse games with the Illuminati for centuries, but realistically, who's reporting Thailog's recruitment to her? She has to hear about it from somewhere. Or did she use the scrying spell? Also, I hope Demona's finally gotten clever enough to realize it would be smarter to rule over an alive humanity than try to make them destroy themselves.

After this issue, it crossed my mind to wonder if Coldstone is a reverse mole. His account of what happened after his first attempt to talk to Goliath was spoken to Demona and not to the reader, after all. Goliath and Coldstone aren't usually that duplicitous, but having a spy in Demona's camp wouldn't be an unwise move. Why is Antoinette working for her? I wondered after reading #12 if Demona had already acquired one of the Keys and was able to use it to control one human, but it seems she doesn't have any of the three yet. Both the meeting from Here in Manhattan and this latest one took place at night, since Demona was in gargoyle form, so Coldstone is sneaking off while the others are awake, not to mention sneaking away from Coldfire.

Should Angela and Broadway have a honeymoon? It probably wasn't part of gargoyle tradition, but it wasn't part of human tradition in the Dark Ages either. Now that they're more able to travel the world, there's no reason they can't have one. Say, in the Green or on Avalon.

Interesting that one of the Keys is again a bodypart. [/SPOILER]


@Matt: Goliath was speaking broadly. I meant, to be fully accurate, not every single older gargoyle is considered a rookery parent to every younger one. Goliath, for instance, is not considered a rookery parent by the Trio according to Greg Weisman's answers here: https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=19796 and here: https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=2241 . See also this response where Greg says it's only the generation that produced the eggs that are considered rookery parents: https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=2332

I didn't mean that anyone would be surprised if Goliath, the Coldtrio or Hudson acted in a nurturing way towards the eggs. But since Broadway, Lexington and Angela were of an age with Brooklyn when he left, Brooklyn thinks of them as his generation still and asks them to be rookery parents to his egg to re-establish ties and because they would have been rookery parents at the same time if it weren't for the whole time displacement. Perhaps, also, because the others are of an older generation and more traditional than the Trio and Angela, so you could safely expect them to mentor the egg in any event.

[SPOILER] "Also, I wonder if the first letters of the chapters will spell out QUEST." Maybe. I was thinking each title would be a variation on "Quest". [/SPOILER]

@Alex: [SPOILER] Yes, in Here in Manhattan, Antoinette seemed much less spicy, to the extent it wasn't clear she even wanted to be part of a crime family until the end. I'm not sure I'd call it Angela's need for family, since she has plenty of it now, so much as her being a nice, idealistic girl who wants to see the best in people. I wrote that and then read your next paragraph where you said much the same, except I think it works for her character. Vinnie did go to work for Taro. It's conceivable he's working for someone else now, of course. [/SPOILER]

I read your short story a couple weeks ago but haven't been able to respond until now as I was getting ready to go on vacation, and I thought it was a good start to an intriguing story! It seems to be based on old Scottish clans. I'm an editor-proofreader professionally, and I noticed a couple of grammatical issues that were repeated; I'd be happy to work with you if you want an editor.

@Phoenician: You're not watching X-Men '97?! It's terrific.

[SPOILER] "I imagine he doesn't carry handcuffs." That makes me flash to Donna Noble in her wedding dress on Doctor Who: Pockets!

"I have no idea what creates the eerie lighting in a rookery, but I love that its been maintained in the Manhattan rookery." Radioactive moss. 😉 [/SPOILER]


@Todd Jensen: [SPOILER] Often someone notices something in the art in these issues that I didn't catch and I go back to see, like the stained glass and the woman dressed like Elisa. And apparently these two men are in the know, since they address Shari by her real name. [/SPOILER]

That's a very interesting tally of Shakespeare references. It seems more likely than not that there will be more by the end of this series, given who's writing it.

@CarumboZabumbo: Welcome onboard!

[SPOILER] "It's cool that we get to see bits and pieces of another World Tour (the same was true for Demona, Macbeth and Arthur back in the day)" Arthur yes, but Demona and Macbeth are known to have gone straight to Paris.

I'm trying not to imagine Goliath and Elisa being like Oliver and Felicity getting married at Barry and Iris's wedding, let alone being like Rogue and Gambit stealing Kitty and Colossus's wedding.

Interesting idea about the two men being Caliban and Prospero, but I don't expect Caliban to look normal. [/SPOILER]


@Blaise: [SPOILER] Yes, that *is* Bowtie Guy listening to Castaway. His suit, bowtie and hair are all the same colors as later.

The preview for #2 is the first five pages. [/SPOILER]


@Matthew: That's a good poem, Matthew. It reminds me of an article I saw in the Times just before going on the vacation I'm on, about a bill being passed in my state making it illegal for anyone to camp in parks unless they own a home. In other words, you can only camp there if you don't actually need to. 🙄

B

This is awsm!
Bathroom Renovations Adelaide - [paulfias at hotmail dot com]
Paulfias

I must admit, the conclusions took me by surprise. Clearly, allowing stories to expand offers a lot more flexibility, so it shouldn't come as a shock. But thanks for this!
Victoria D - [janeholmez34 at gmail dot com]

Todd> Partly from past homeless meals I've helped serve and just passing by camps on the way to work.
But the big reason was something I heard long ago, that the average person could end up losing everything due to natural disasters, bad economics etc. That's always stuck with me, the fragility of possessions and property.

Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

MATTHEW - So what inspired you to write this cycle of poems?
Todd Jensen

Thanks again Todd, always good to hear positive feedback. Even if the subject matter is thoroughly depressing.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

MATTHEW - Thanks for the latest poem.

Another thought I had today. Margot Yale was established (as far back as "Clan-Building") as being a liaison to the Gargoyle Task Force. [SPOILER] I wonder what her response will be to Goliath now being a member. I have the image of her seriously considering resigning from her liaison position, in order to avoid having further dealings with him. Whatever she does, I'd really like to see future "Gargoyles" stories explore that situation. [/SPOILER]

Todd Jensen

1. A collection update. Having heard about the manga from other fans of The Owl House and Little Witch Academia (which I recommend to any OH fans here), got all 8 regular volumes of the Yuri manga Bloom Into You and the 2 Anthology volumes as well.

https://www.deviantart.com/antiyonder/art/Collection-Addition-Picture-36-1047427070

2. Relating to Craig's spoiler...
[SPOILER] So I think I recall some speculation on the idea, but Demona has had a tendency to cooperate with the worst of humanity despite aiming to genocide the entirety of it.

Plus Weisman stated that Macbeth at least worked with the allies during WW II, but kept a lid on Demona's activity during the time.

Think she provided any aid to Adolf? [/SPOILER]

Antiyonder

With the last day of April here, it's time for another section of my poem "A Year on the Streets" which has become an emotionally taxing thing and I'm only four months in.

April

Manager says to me, “Let me be blunt,”
“Your accent is wrong, you can’t hang out front.”
I say back to him, “I’m not trying to lurk.”
“But I’m old and I’m hungry and I’m just looking for some work.”

Woman says to me, “You can’t be over there,”
“You’re dirty and you’re smelly and you give people quite a scare.”
So I ask her, “Where can someone like me go?”
And she sneers back at me and asks, “How should I know?”

Officer says to us, “You can’t camp in this place,”
“You’re a blight on this city. Go and find a new space.”
We ask where we can go, our eyes full of loss and fear.
His hand on his gun, he says, “Just get outta here.”

Politician asks me, “Why didn’t you try?”
“You’re a burden and shame, so why don’t you up and die?”
So I ask him if I die will anybody care.
He shrugs and asks, “If you’re gonna die, why not do it elsewhere?”

Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Putting this in spoiler brackets, just in case:

[SPOILER] The "Gargoyles" Dynamite comics (at least, the present-day ones) have gone to a lot of trouble to establish the precise dates for the events in the story (May for "Here in Manhattan", and often precise dates for events like Goliath's hearing, June and July for "Gargoyle Quest" #1, and specific dates for its events as well), which gives us more of a sense of the year's cycle. (We even got some of that in the Slave Labor Graphics series, with #3-#5 definitely set at Halloween, #7 to *9 given specific dates as well - tied in with the fact that the Stone of Destiny story revolved around a real-life event - and "Bad Guys" $4 set at New Year's Eve.)

(In fact, it does remind me of the "year's cycle" approach of "The Spectacular Spider-Man" - where we followed the calendar from school starting in September up to Valentine's Day - taking in Halloween, Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Year's along the way - and "Young Justice" - with its own precise datings. I never got quite as much into those two series as I did "Gargoyles" - I'm more at home with "myth and medieval"-type stories than regular super-hero stories - but I really liked that aspect of them.

As I've mentioned, we haven't seen as much of the year's landmarks in "Gargoyles" - which makes sense. The only human holiday the gargoyles would take much interest in is Halloween, obviously - though it would be interesting to see their thoughts on a few of the other human holidays. I probably said this here once, but I've had a vision for a while of Hudson, at least, pondering the fuss humans make about the new year, particularly the insistence on ending an old year and starting a new year at a specific point (I imagine him regarding it much the same way he regards humans insisting on naming everything), not to mention giving all those years numbers. But there's the solstices and equinoxes, which probably *would* be significant to the gargoyles, especially since they mark how much or how little time they're spending in stone sleep, and I understand that gargoyle eggs hatch at the spring equinox, which would certainly make that important to the Manhattan clan, thanks to Egwardo. And there's the regular change of seasons; we didn't see much of that in the series - apart from the snow in "Her Brother's Keeper", "Re-Awakening", and "The Price", but there might be more room for that in a comic book than in television animation. I hope that we get some exploration of the year's cycles as the comic continues. [/SPOILER]

Todd Jensen

[SPOILER]
I sort of doubt that we'll be getting explicit references to Hitler or Nazis, given that Disney seems to be in a particularly cautious censorial mode lately. But I did get a definite 'Boys from Brazil' vibe from those bodyguards.
[/SPOILER]

Craig

Matt: Thank you for the answer.

Todd: That's a good guess, which also serves to remind me that [SPOILER] we'll probably soon get Demona implying that she killed Hitler, just like in Religious Studies 101: "A simple wooden shaft. The prize of Adolf Hitler's personal collection. After his... demise, his remaining followers smuggled it to Brazil." [/SPOILER]

CarumboZabumbo
Noi siamo le creature della notte! Noi siamo... i Gargoyles!

A thought I've had, connected to "Gargoyle Quest".

[SPOILER] I've wondered, ever since I saw the preview pages for #1, whether the late Mr. Aguilar might have been a Nazi in hiding. The combination of a South American location with the fact that a lot of his collection had a strongly Norse/Germanic tone (particularly not just the head of Odin's spear, but also a Viking longship dangling from the ceiling) is suspicious. (And I noticed that Bishansky had similar thoughts in the most recent "Voices From the Eyrie" podcast.) [/SPOILER]

Todd Jensen

Third.

CarumboZabumbo> It's a good question. I suppose it is just for clarity, especially in cases where, as you noted, characters are mentioned well before actually showing up. It is nice to be able to ascertain the first appearance at a glance. I can't recall if we had another reason for throwing that on there. Some of the other frequent editors might have more insight.

Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"

Second - and I have a question for the Gargwiki editors who post here.

Every character's page on the wiki has a list of appearances, and every character's first appearance always has (First Appearance) written beside it - but what's the point of that? I mean, if it's the first item on the list - and doesn't have (Mentioned Only) written beside it - obviously it's going to be the first appearance, isn't it?

It's not a big deal or anything, of course, but I've been kinda curious about it for a long time.

CarumboZabumbo
Noi siamo le creature della notte! Noi siamo... i Gargoyles!

Long time since I've been first.

Anywho, slightly off-topic but something I just noticed. In the recent Magic the Gathering set "Wilds of Eldraine" (an Arthurian/Classic Fairy Tales mashup world) there were a set of cards about elves from the hidden citadel Redtooth Keep. They turned away all travelers and in return a witch cursed all of it inhabitants, forcing them to transform into werefoxes by day.

Now obviously this is a Beauty and the Beast sendup, but there's so many things indicative of "Eye of the Beholder" that I can't help but wonder if someone in Wizards of the Coast was ripping things off.

Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!