A Station Eight Fan Web Site

Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending June 2, 2024

Index : Hide Images

BTW, My Adventures with Superman is well worth watching and I recommend it to everyone here, along with Unicorn: Warriors Eternal which was in the same timeslot and presumably will be again if it comes back. There should be ways to watch them on things like Max and the Cartoon Network app, too.
B

Matthew> Your poem was well-written.

Todd Jensen> Those were the first two episodes of the second season of My Adventures with Superman, "More Things in Heaven and Earth" and "Adventures with My Girlfriend". [SPOILER] Many of us suspected Dr Ivo's assistant Alex was actually Lex since Season 1 [/SPOILER].

B

MATTHEW - Thanks for sharing the "behind-the-scenes" for that poem with us.

Incidentally, I caught the repeat of the first two episodes (I assume) of "My Adventures With Superman" this evening (the regular showing is late at night, when I'm asleep) and quite liked them. [SPOILER] Probably the biggest surprise was just who the guy coming to Amanda Waller's aid at the end turned out to be. [/SPOILER]

Todd Jensen

Thank you, Todd. Having different narrators for each month was something I always had in mind I just remembered the high number of homeless families some time last month. Doing this from a child's perspective and having the narrative be a little...I'm not sure, confused on the whole situation but still feeling the weight of loss on the parent's part wasn't something I thought of but just sort of happened.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

I wonder if these bots even work for legitimate businesses, or scam operations.

MATTHEW - Thanks for the latest poem - which took an even darker turn than before (the first four poems, of course, were anything but light) with the narrator being a kid.

Todd Jensen

Thank you for this information! It’s incredibly helpful, and I’m excited to put it to good use. I appreciate your support!
joedavidson - [ampva300 at gmail dot com]

Pardon the double post, but since it's the last day of the month that means it's time to share another part of my monthly poem, "A Year on the Streets." This one is a bit different from my usual fare.

May

Once upon a time,
An apartment was our home,
It was noisy, cramped and cozy,
The only home I had known.

Then one night Mom was crying,
I didn’t know just what was wrong,
We had to leave our apartment,
And all our stuff was sold and gone.

Now our home is our car,
And I had to say goodbye to all my class,
Now we spend all our time and money,
On food and water and gas.

Mom and Dad give hopeful tears,
As down the road we roam,
I hope they find some work somewhere,
I hope I can have a home.

Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Eh, feels like they're stringing a collection of corporate buzzwords together.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Todd> True. But for the first time in 20 years, they are starting to make some valid points. If off topic. : )
Anonymous
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"

These bot-posters are really getting over the top.
Todd Jensen

Interesting. You might be right, and that would indeed be an innovative approach that hadn't occurred to me before. However, my impression is that the senior executives tend to prioritize more traditional strategies. They often rely on proven methods and established protocols, which, while effective, can sometimes limit the potential for creative solutions. Despite this, your perspective offers a refreshing alternative that could potentially bring significant benefits if explored further. By considering unconventional methods, we could uncover new opportunities for growth and improvement that might otherwise be overlooked. It's crucial to balance innovation with practicality, but your idea could serve as a catalyst for rethinking our current strategies. This approach might encourage a more dynamic and adaptable organizational culture, ultimately leading to better outcomes in the long run. Let's delve deeper into this concept and evaluate its feasibility in our current context. Your input is invaluable, and I'm eager to see how we can integrate it into our strategic planning.
Residential Window Cleaners - [windowcleaningburnaby at gmail dot com]

Matthew> And there will be a comic tie in to it as of next month.
Antiyonder

On a wholly unrelated subject, the second season of My Adventures With Superman premiered just last weekend and I know that there was some discussion on around it last year so I thought I'd bring it up again.

[SPOILER] Plus it's cool to see Zehra will be showing up again in the next episode. [/SPOILER]

Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Carumbo> "Yes, I know about Brooklyn trying to avoid spoilers, and it's possible he doesn't know about the epiphany - but writing-wise, him knowing is the much more interesting option."

I'm not sure that is true. And regardless, it is all about execution. Brooklyn knows about some future events for sure, and he probably is unclear or completely in the dark about others. How this is handled story-wise will be fascinating and I have total faith in Weisman's ability to handle it.

All of your thoughts are interesting, but for the moment they are at best educated guesses and at worst they are lackluster fan fiction. Not saying you should stop talking about it. We all love speculating after all, but remember to be more open minded to the thoughts of others and less cynical about the future of the Gargoyles Universe. I don't see a decline in the franchise or its characters. Quite the contrary! I think things are getting better and better. Characters are growing more interesting. Villains are evolving. Some are growing more dangerous and cunning, some are growing more pathetic, some are growing into heroes, and some will die. That's how things go. And all of those possibilities are exciting and interesting to me. So, have some faith in Weisman, same grace in talking to fans, and some optimism for the future. This is a great time to be a Gargoyles fan!

Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"

Thank you all for your replies.

Matt > Yes, I know about Brooklyn trying to avoid spoilers, and it's possible he doesn't know about the epiphany - but writing-wise, him knowing is the much more interesting option.

"I think they will influence each other in ways both subtle and significant." Such as? I mean, what's the half-way point between "All humans must die!" and "Humans raised me, I know for a fact that we can live in peace"?

"Brentwood might even keep Thailog's memory alive for years after his death just as Future Tense Lex did with Xanatos." I doubt it - we already have Coyote as our Evil AI, after all; I find it more likely that Brentwood may have a hand in creating the Thailog Shock Troops.

Ftmb > "in relation to the clan, I could see him going the problematic ally route." Uh, isn't that exactly what he already is? He's mostly helping them these days (saving them in Hunter's Moon, organizing a Halloween Party at the Castle so that they can make some friends in high places, helping them save Michael, Maggie and Mary, bribing Roebling to give them civil rights) except that once in a while he still tries to screw them over in some way (the Stone of Destiny arc).

"Plus, he is the canonically Greek character, and what are the Greek heros of myth, if not problematic?" "Problematic" ain't the first thing that comes to my mind when thinking about the Greek heroes - that's usually "almost certainly doomed to come to a nasty end", because Greece was just one big fat depressive episode back then. Moreover, while I know that Petros Xanatos is a Greek immigrant, I don't think that David being Greek is a particularly important aspect of his character - it's mostly a background detail.

About Demona: [SPOILER] I think it would be a nice change of pace to have her be the one forced to play catch-up for once, when until now she's always been one of the Gargoyles more at ease with technology; among other things, it'd probably force her and Brooklyn (the other guy unfamiliar with the tech of 2198) to spend some time together, which would be fun.

As for her mental state... look, the Captain of the Guard spent 1001 years in a cave with only Hakon and his self-hatred to keep him company, and yet when Goliath came along he was still able to form coherent sentences and even redeem himself when, realistically, he should have been frothing-at-the-mouth insane; Demona in 2198 will be as sane as Weisman needs her to be. [/SPOILER]


About the Quarrymen: [SPOILER] Dude/Dudette, bringing out the Klan proves the exact opposite of the point you're trying to make: this is an organization whose membership peaked literally a century ago in the 1920's; they are so outdated and irrelevant they're not even worthy of meme status like the Nazis (Literally Hitler and all that). You may as well try to tell me that Genghis Khan is still relevant as a political leader and that the worship of the Norse gods is still relevant as a religion. [/SPOILER]

Ed > "Demona's defeats strike a different note also because, as the IRA would say, she "only has to be lucky once" whereas everyone else must be lucky every time." Ok, but here's the thing: we, as viewers/readers, KNOW THAT SHE'LL NEVER BE "LUCKY"; we knew it intuitively when we were kids and we know it even better now - hence the need to avoid Villain Decay.

KarthikRoy & Certificate Attestation > Thank you for your contributions, things that are totally not bots.

CarumboZabumbo
Noi siamo le creature della notte! Noi siamo... i Gargoyles!

I've loved cartoon movies since childhood.
Certificate Attestation - [harrykelvin10 at gmail dot com]

I love cartoon movies. I believe they are enjoyable for people of all ages.
KarthikRoy - [submission dot geniusattestation at gmail dot com]

Excellent post, Carumbo. Back in the 90s I used to call this "villain inflation". Ripley just about defeats one Alien by the skin of her teeth and the next film she's gunning them down for fun.

I think the key is consequences. If heroes and villains take a loss, it's meaningful - Dracon has a prison stint, Elisa becomes estranged from her newly-mutated brother, the Pack are pushed into wishing to upgrade themselves. To mitigate against this happening too often, the universe is clever about what constitutes "a win". For Thailog, faking his death and getting away with $20m wasn't a consolation prize - it was the major thing he wanted. In this way, not every episode has a downer ending for either the heroes or villains but there's forward momentum on all fronts.

Sometimes the consequences are merely emotional. S1 Demona is fairly routinely defeated but I think there you sense that she really wants connection with the clan and so failing on that score only makes her more tragic and dangerous. By the time you get to S2, Demona learns something from her defeats that proves instructive - such as that the price of Puck's gifts are not worth it to her or that time is immutable and even the brief and transitory glimpse into her own frailties at the end of "City of Stone". There's a possible exception of "Hunter's Moon" but even then we soon see her literally salvaging something from the wreckage in "Invitation Only". Demona's defeats strike a different note also because, as the IRA would say, she "only has to be lucky once" whereas everyone else must be lucky every time and because the odds of her plots succeeding are such that you wouldn't expect routine victories, it doesn't feel as devastating to the character's integrity when she does lose a few.

Ed

B and Todd Jensen > [SPOILER] Thanks for the continuity check. Although I'd accept Excalibur having potentially rattled around in time, space, and magic enough to escape continuity and end up with Prospero, it would also be a weird place for it to show up, and way too quickly after it'd been seen previously to just show up as a throwaway. I do feel a lot of links forming between "Quest" and "Dark Ages," but that'd probably be one too many, too. So, some other mythical swords, then. Not like there is any shortage. [/SPOILER]

And again to B--it's immensely flattering to see my handle come up three times in a row, by the way--one counterpoint I can make is that [SPOILER] if Coldstone really hadn't been surprised at the exos being vacant, I think he'd have said something else, even just, "you need not worry." He is crafty enough to fake his disappointment: it'd be the most normal thing to do and we have seen that sort of thing from him before (e.g., back in "Clan-Building"), so I don't know. There is definitely a part of me looking for proof he hasn't gone over to the bad side again. [/SPOILER]

morrand - [morrand276 at gmail dot com]

CarumboZabumbo> You covered the recurring cast of antagonists and their traits pretty well and how they avoid Villain Decay, but one thing I want to highlight is how the conflicts between them avoid repetition usually found in the cartoon formula.

For starters: You briefly mentioned the Xanatos Gambit, where villains can take some measure of success even if the episode's primary conflict goes to the heroes and Greg's also a skilled enough writer to make sure that these little victories feel in-character and don't feel enough like a way to undo all of the heroes' hard work. One great example of this can be found throughout the first season of Young Justice where several episodes end with The Light revealing that their plans are being continued even though the Team has seemingly thwarted their plan. The plan eventually being revealed as a way to take control of the entire Justice League which sets the conflict for the season finale.

Another case is that when heroes and villains do come to blows their battles all tend to be unique and emphasize the strengths and weaknesses of both sides. For the gargoyles, they're stronger and hardier than most of their human antagonists, so the baddies often take them on using technology that the gargs can't bull rush their way through. Which means that our heroes more often than not win the day by using a combination of wit, coordination, and carefully applied brute strength when needed. In keeping with his underdog theme, Peter in The Spectacular Spider-Man more often than not fights villains who are stronger, smarter or more ruthless than him. But like the Clan, he powers through by combination of skills, smarts, and tenacity.

Villain Decay can easily be avoided if you have a large enough cast of villains with their own set of goals and a clear idea on how to keep them threatening but without going into Villain Sue territory and without getting to the point where they overstay their welcome in the story. It just takes a bit of work.

Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Thanks for the "Avoiding Villain Decay" posts. They certainly provided some insightful observations here.
Todd Jensen

Another thought re: Quarrymen [SPOILER] The KKK is not only still present, going on almost 200 years, but have been getting more prominent. Along with protocols of the elders of Zion having a huge resurgence . So I would not count that kind of thing out. I am sure I can list a whole lot more groups and ideas. Look at women's rights, etc. [/SPOILER]
Ftmb
FTBM

CarumboZabumbo> You didn't really mention Xanatos, but I think he's still a villain, but in relation to the clan, I could see him going the problematic ally route...which is a very fertile field and gives a lot of opportunities for comedy too. Plus, he is the canonically Greek character, and what are the Greek heros of myth, if not problematic?
Regarding Demona, [SPOILER] My main pause about her being retired for a century or two, that would put her so out of touch, out of date, and out of practice ( and probably a thousand times crazier and unstable - her loneliness and isolation has completely contributed to even her current state) she would be functionally useless at best in the future. [/SPOILER]

Ftmb
FTBM

5th?

CarumboZabumbo> One thing you need to keep in mind about Demona and her possible redemption is that Brooklyn doesn't neccesarily know it'll happen. Early on in his journey he made a point in avoiding "spoilers". He might not have been in 2198 long enough to see Demona's redemption. They could've parted on a bad note assuming they spent much time together at all! So, the clan may not know if Demona would ever have an epiphany. I do agree that its possible that she might be imprisoned for a lot of the next 200 years, but I doubt Quest is her last big play before 2198. And regardless of the outcome, I would never say that Angela and Demona's relationship would be "boring". I think it will be fascinating to watch them interact. I think they will influence each other in ways both subtle and significant. We shall see.

I do agree with your ideas on Thailog. Brentwood is my guess for the cause of his demise. Brentwood might even keep Thailog's memory alive for years after his death just as Future Tense Lex did with Xanatos. Interesting stuff. We shall see.

As for the rest, who knows. Though I don't think any of them have become less interesting as villains to me. Certainly none of them are boring. And I trust Greg to know both his characters and his audience. Essentially, don't worry so much. Villains will come (in interesting ways) and go (in interesting ways). That's life. Never the End!

Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"

Here's Part 2 of my "The problem of Villain Decay, and how Gargoyles has handled - and will handle - it", featuring my guesses on how the cycle of avoiding Villain Decay could continue in the future; they are partially based on information that has been revealed here on Ask Greg, so I'll put them under spoiler.

DEMONA: [SPOILER] she's in an interesting position because, although we know she'll get an "epiphany" at some point and presumably redeem herself, we also know that two more centuries will have to pass before that actually happens - and two extra centuries of failures sound like the sort of thing that makes Villain Decay inevitable, even if you score a few partial victories along the way. Moreover, her relationship with Angela could quickly get boring, since there's a limit to how much it can actually evolve - Angela will never redeem Demona and Demona will never turn Angela into a human-hater, so they're more or less stuck in their positions from The Reckoning.

I have a theory/idea on how this could be avoided, though: what if, in the near-ish future, maybe as soon as the end of Gargoyles Quest, Demona gets retired as a villain? Right now, what I think will happen is that Demona will try and use the new Keys to Power to take control of the minds of humanity and force them all to kill themselves; she will fail - obviously - but Hudson (or maybe Brooklyn) will die in the battle, at which point the Clan will say "Yeah, two attempted genocides in a row are too much, plus we lost someone that was dear to us, this can't be allowed to happen again" and lock Demona in a safe place, where she'll be stuck for the next 200 years, until Samson comes along to recruit her into the Resistance ("We need all the help we can get no matter the source, yadda yadda yadda").

Now, this is just a hunch; feel free to mock it; feel free to tell me how much you'd hate this if it were to happen; but that's my current theory. [/SPOILER]


THAILOG: [SPOILER] just like Xanatos, I don't think that Thailog will be able to hold onto his role of Evil Amoral Billionaire forever, but I doubt he'll ever become an ally (or even just a semi-ally) either; it's more likely, IMO, that he'll be killed off at some point - and call me crazy, but I think it's Brentwood who'll end up doing it, thus taking over his role and getting a bit closer to the Lexington from Future Tense he's supposed to mirror. [/SPOILER]

THE PACK: [SPOILER] they are another interesting case, in that there's already been a story, Upgrade, that dealt with their Villain Decay (Greg Weisman was very explicit about it in his ramble for the episode: "How the mighty have fallen. My point-of-view and Dingo's matched up. The Pack were beginning to feel pathetic. The problem with villains is that after the heroes keeps beating them over and over, you need to find a way to keep them competitive"). Problem is, though, that while their upgrade did make them a bigger challenge, they still ended up being a beatable challenge, and now they're in the exact same position as before, with the upgraded Pack being just as decayed as the original one (their latest defeat in Mayday was particularly humiliating); so, how does Greg plan to address this?

Well, the next Coyote will form the Ultra-Pack, comprised of the newly upgraded Wolf, Jackal and Hyena, plus a new human member (possibly the Tazmanian Tiger from Bad Guys); this sounds less than ideal to me, because 1)it smells of "sequel not knowing what to do and thus just copying the original" and 2)it just postpones the actual solving of the problem (what happens after the Ultra-Pack starts decaying as well - they get upgraded AGAIN and become the Super-Ultra-Pack?).

So, unless someone can come up with something better, I think it may almost be time to retire the Pack for good: give them a few more stories and then end things with a big one where they manage to really f**k the Clan up and inflict some lasting damage (maybe they cripple Lexington to the point that he needs to get the cybernetic implants from Future Tense to survive?) - and then blow them all up for good so they can leave on a high note.

(Aside from Coyote, who we know will still be a thing in Gargoyles 2198, by which time "anything less than total control of the entire galaxy would strike him as under-achieving" - and yes, I think making Coyote an independent agent from Xanatos and letting him develop his own ambitions makes for a good way of avoiding decay, at least for a while.) [/SPOILER]


SEVARIUS: [SPOILER] honestly, the guy is almost immune to Villain Decay, and for a very simple reason: he usually isn't the main villain of a story, which means he gets to stay in the background and concoct whatever abominations Xanatos, Thailog, Demona or whoever ask him to concoct in peace, thus leaving his employees with the ungrateful task of going out and getting defeated (partially or utterly) by the Clan; if you think about it, an argument could be made that he's the most successful villain of the entire series. Because of this, I can see him keeping his role as Mad Scientist for a long time yet - although yes, at some point he'll probably need to get some comeuppance for the Mutates and all the other nasty stuff he did. [/SPOILER]

COLDSTEEL: [SPOILER] ...yeah, I don't have much of a big speech prepared for this guy. I enjoy him well enough, but I can't pretend there's much of anything going on in there aside from "nasty and machiavellian" and "wants to bang Coldfire", neither of which gives him a plethora of staying power. I dunno, maybe him and Coyote will still be pals in 2198, maybe he'll get three or four more appearances before Coldfire melts him into scrap metal while Lesley Gore's You Don't Own Me plays in the background... I admit I'm a bit stumped on this. [/SPOILER]

THE WEIRD SISTERS: [SPOILER] while I don't think he's going to put it that way, I do think Greg Weisman intends to restore the Weird Sisters to their former glory by giving us back the characters that were introduced in City of Stone - the trio of mysterious and otherwordly creatures, rather than the "VENGEFUL TRIO OF WITCHES" from later appearances; this doesn't mean he'll pretend that stuff never happened, but I believe an attempt will be made to retroactively make it more complicated/mysterious/mystical than it originally was ("The Weird Sisters represent three opposing forces battling for ascendency without ever acknowledging or even being aware of the conflict. So more was going on then you saw") and that in general, the Sisters' appearances will be more City-inspired than Avalon-inspired. Greg has also said that their Grace-aspect will be revealed as well at some point, which of course fits better with the City-Sisters than the Avalon-Sisters. [/SPOILER]

JOHN CASTAWAY AND THE QUARRYMEN: [SPOILER] I'd argue these guys have already gone through a most ferocious case of Villain Decay: they made a strong first impression in Nightwatch/The Journey, which was followed by a nice scene in Invitation Only where Castaway showed he could be savvy as well ("No hammers! Not [on Halloween]! Yes, we do want a strong presence on the streets, but the last thing we need is a Quarryman brought up on assault charges for clouting a teenager in a Gargoyle mask! Hoods, yes! Hammers, no!")...

But then Here In Manhattan happened, where Castaway's attempts to stop the Gargoyles from being acknowledged as sentient beings amounted to an annoyance at best, and of course Trick-Or-Treat, where not only did he do a complete one-eighty on his previous, perfectly sensible Halloween policy by deciding to attack a public party ("All right, new rules: go after any Gargoyle or any human foolish enough to costume as a Gargoyle, plus any known or obvious Gargoyle-sympathizers - like that species-traitor Maza!"), but him and his Quarrymen were then handed what I don't hesitate to call the most humiliating defeat any villain has ever endured in the Gargoyles Universe yet - seriously, even the Street Thugs usually get treated with more dignity.

(It also doesn't help that Castaway seems to have lost any doubt or complexity he used to have back when he was Jon Canmore - right now, his only personality trait seems to be "hates Gargoyles; like, a whole lot"; his complete lack of emotion while confronting his sister Robyn in Estranged was particularly striking, and not for the right reasons.)

And yet - stop me if you've heard this before - we know the Quarrymen will still be around in Gargoyles 2198, by which time they'll be "out of favor" because they're no longer "politically correct" - and we even know that they'll still be led by Castaway's descendants. Frankly, I don't have many great hopes for their future as a believable threat, because we know that Gargoyles are going to get more and ever more rights in the next few decades, and therefore we also know that the Quarrymen are going to fail and keep failing at their job, without even the option of a dignified exit from the field to lighten things up. I'm afraid their Villain Decay has just begun... [/SPOILER]


THE ILLUMINATI: [SPOILER] I've kept these guys for last because... well, they're in a bit of a weird position. The Illuminati are arguably the most powerful, most dangerous villains of the entire series, being the Secret Masters of the World who move and manipulate everything from behind the scenes... but we haven't seen them do much of anything yet, have we? Therefore, while there's been no Villain Decay, there haven't been any great victories to celebrate either - in fact, I find it difficult to visualize what an Illuminati victory, either a total or a partial one, would even look like; what do they want, exactly?

Still, we know we won't get rid of them anytime soon, because - say it with me, kids - they'll still be around two centuries from now, at which point they'll still be "made up of almost all the true movers and shakers on planet Earth" - which means that, on the one hand, there's a limit to how much Villan Decay they can get, but on the other hand it looks like we won't be getting the satisfaction of seeing either Matt, the Clan, Arthur, the New Olympians or the Redemption Squad hand them any particularly serious defeat, which could make things as boring as the other option in the long run. [/SPOILER]


Thoughts?

CarumboZabumbo
Noi siamo le creature della notte! Noi siamo... i Gargoyles!

Carumbo > I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on Demona, as I feel that she's a villain who's already teetering on a bit of decay, at least in my opinion.
I pondered the idea out there before that she could evolve her hate of humanity to be less self-centered and more "reasonable"; growing her hatred from humans' increasingly foul wars and actions about the climate, but I'm not sure if Greg would want to cover more contemporary issues in a series still set in the late 90's.

Kate

Morrand> [SPOILER] Remember, the Lady of the Lake put Arthur and Macbeth through a test to see which of them was worthy of Excalibur and Arthur won, so she gave it back to him. [/SPOILER]
B

Morrand> [SPOILER] As Todd Jensen said, Excalibur was already recovered by Arthur and Griff in the Gargoyles Season 2 World Tour episode "Pendragon", so it's not any of the swords in Prospero's vault. [/SPOILER]
B

CarumboZarumbo> Please do!
B

Morrand> [SPOILER] Yes, this was the first time Shari actually needing to not finish a story has been referenced. Most likely Coldstone was acting like he didn't know about the suits being remote-controlled because he wasn't giving away that he was in on Demona's plan, so he reacted to Goliath the way he normally would under the circumstances.

Hehe. One of my favorite lines. "And I have transcended any pleasure received from supervising the endless reconstruction of this castle." - Owen, "Masques" [/SPOILER]

B

Thanks for that post, Carumbo. And, yes, I'd like to see Part Two.

One little thought on "Gargoyles Quest" #2, [SPOILER] on the meeting between Prospero and Shahrizad. "Dark Ages: Alliance" hinted that Shahrizad was the Dark Lady of the Sonnets, meaning that we got a sort of Shakespearean crossover in that scene. [/SPOILER]

Todd Jensen

First.

What follows is the first part of my post "The problem of Villain Decay, and how Gargoyles has handled - and will handle - it", which I published on Reddit earlier this month; since it's fairly long, I'll wait and see if it gets some traction before posting the second part.

What is Villain Decay? According to Tv Tropes: "The process by which a villain who is extremely scary on first appearance becomes a joke after a few more appearances.
In most shows, failure is the only option for the villains, because success would mean that the villains take over the world, kill or imprison all the good guys, and otherwise do things that make future episodes impossible. However, this eventually results in a foregone conclusion and a predictable plot, since it makes the audience wonder why the hero is so concerned about an enemy that they've beaten six times already."

This is a problem that Gargoyles has always taken steps to avoid, and in several different ways - the foremost being that, even though the villains aren't allowed to win too much, they can still score some partial victories along the way.

For example: yes, Xanatos will never achieve his dream of immortality, but he was still able to manipulate Derek into his service - for a while - and successfully create the Mutates; yes, Demona will never actually destory the human race, but she was still able to massacre a fair amount of humans during City of Stone; sure, they couldn't let Thailog kill off Goliath, Elisa, Xanatos and Sevarius during his first appearance, but he was still able to get away with twenty million dollars; you get the gist.

Another method that Gargoyles has used to avoid Villain Decay is to make the villains interesting in ways that don't have to do with their success rate - for example, by turning Xanatos into a family man and letting his relationship with the Clan evolve to the point that now they're kinda-sorta allies; another example of this is the fact that two of Demona's big selling points are 1)learning her backstory and 2)seeing how her being a villain impacts Goliath and Angela (and Brooklyn, assuming Greg will be smart and address the fact that he now presumably knows how her story will end).

But a third way Gargoyles has dealt with the problem, and IMO the most interesting one AND most important to consider for the future is this: after a while, villains are allowed to move on while others take their place. Let's look at Xanatos once again: long ago, he was the series' main villain (yes, he was, sorry Demona-lovers) but that hasn't really been the case since, oh, the first half of Season 2? Instead, as previously mentioned, he's now the Clan's kinda-sorta ally* and his role as Evil Amoral Billionaire has been more or less taken over by Thailog.

*(Of course, a sad byproduct of this is that now we'll probably never see him get some comeuppance for his crimes, but hey - I never said all this was handled 100% perfectly. Curse you, Greg Weisman's man-crush for his own creation!)

And Xanatos is hardly the only example:
1)Macbeth is no longer a villain and is now the Clan's ally as well.
2)Fox has basically gone through the same development as her husband.
3)Dingo and Fang have joined the Redemption Squad.
4)Tony Dracon's role as Main Mobster has been taken over by Antoinette (and we're seeing more gangster characters in general compared to the tv show).
5)The Archmage was killed off.
6)Hakon was exiled from the mortal plane.

And that was the end of the analysis portion of the post, which was followed by the speculation part, where I made educated guesses on how this cycle of avoiding Villain Decay will continue in the future; if you're interested, I will post that too.

CarumboZabumbo
Noi siamo le creature della notte! Noi siamo... i Gargoyles!