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Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending June 16, 2024

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Jurgan >

I tend to infer when Goliath says he thought Avalon had released them that the skiff did sink, we saw it sink in Pendragon, and I understand why the show chose to re-introduce them back in Manhattan from the POV of Hudson and the trio. Goliath's statement was enough for me... did Avalon release them with the skiff sinking? Yes... did it send them back to Manhattan due to the danger there? Yes. Both can be true. Just as Avalon sent Arthur to London to meet Griff and converse with the Stone while releasing him.

That said, I think it's perfectly fair to think we needed more than just a line of dialogue and thinking back to Arthur's skiff sinking several episodes ago.

But hey, twenty-two minutes, and choosing your moments. Your milage may vary.

Greg Bishansky

I'm not saying we need to get a detailed description of how Avalon's magic works, leaving that as a mystery doesn't bother me at all. But Goliath is our protagonist/main character for most of the series. Generally, we know at least as much as he does. So it's a little weird that we don't even know what he saw and how he responded.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

It's possible that we have cause-and-effect reversed here - I wouldn't put it past Avalon's nebulous intelligence to be able to sense the subconscious intent of the Skiff's riders.

If the rider will need to return to the Skiff, it stays.

If the rider will choose to remain in the "place they need to be," it sinks.

Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"If you run you gain one, but if you move forward you gain two." - Suletta Mercury

That's why it's canon-in-training until we get a canonical answer. I do enjoy CiT, though. It gives us a lot of rich discussions.

If the skiffs sink and return to Avalon, I'm guessing they're originally from Avalon. That makes me think that the Magus summoned them before he, Katharine, Tom, Mary, Finella, and the eggs departed Scotland for Avalon. This is a question I should have asked on Voices but, to be honest, it didn't even occur to me. I'll figure out an appropriate show to bring it up. Maybe "Pendragon" when we see the skiff sink.

This likely means the Skiff that Finella and Mary took to return to Scotland sank and returned.

I do appreciate that Avalon works on a higher plane and that we maybe shouldn't get concrete answers of how or why. It creates great discussion and fan speculation. I mean, we still don't have all the answers to the mysteries of the universe in real life - an it gives the world a little spice.

Greg Bishansky

I see one answer where Greg said the skiff sank, and another where he says Goliath chose not to return to it. He's been inconsistent on this one, and since Goliath's arrival in New York was off-screen, we have no canonical answer as to what actually happened. Not yet, anyway.

https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=2723

https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=8925

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Antiyonder > Ah, yes. Thanks for the reminder.
Craig

Craig> Well we saw that when Arthur made it to London that his skiff sunk and Greg mentioned the same happening to Goliath, Elisa, Angela and Bronx's skiff when making it back to Manhattan.
Antiyonder

Jurgan > That's a good point. Thinking it through, I'm not sure that I would technically call the World Tour a "quest," since there isn't really any overarching goal. For instance, Demona is currently (in 1997) on a Quest to retrieve the three new Keys to Power. In contrast, the World Tour doesn't have any particular endgame. I guess you could argue that it's a series of "quests," in that each destination has a purpose, but they don't relate to each other. So how do you know when it's over? In a narrative sense, from the audience's perspective, "The Gathering" feels like a logical climax point, in terms of confronting the lord of Avalon on the gargoyles' home turf. But did Avalon "plan" it that way? And how will Jade and Turquesa know that they're done? Will there be some similar catastrophe in Guatemala, or will the skiff just drop them off uneventfully once it decides that they're done?

Another thing I wonder about: If Elisa had gotten on a plane and decided to just go home, would the plane have been magically diverted to keep her on the World Tour? Or would she have the free will to walk away? Is it the skiff itself that's keeping them on the journey, or is it more of a Final Destination-type scenario where fate is going to bind them regardless?

Craig

I mostly agree with the need to create a "quest," I find stories about "trying to get home" or really any premise that's doomed to fail gets boring fast. The problem is how do you know when the quest is over? Goliath says that Manhattan sent them to New York to deal with Oberon, but if that's true then he should have gotten right back on the skiff afterwards. I think Greg once said Goliath "abandoned" his quest, but it doesn't feel that way to me. I hope the Voices podcast discusses this when they get to The Gathering.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

@Ed - I'm sure Dynamite does reader surveys of some kind. Probably not very widespread, though.

I think Brod is HARD carried by Clancy Brown. No disrespect intended to the writers or production, I just think without Brown he's potentially just kind of a shallow thug archetype. Brown gives him some comedy, a bit of street savvy, a lot more meat than he could have had otherwise. (I love "that was my FAVOURITE restaurant!")

Re: Golem - I haven't listened to the entire podcast yet (I like to listen to it while I work out -- so I'll finish it up tomorrow) I think I've said before that this is one of my top World Tour episodes. It just helps having Renard, even if you don't care about him it's so much less leg work than having to introduce Natsilane's whole family, or try to make sure the triad of villains in Sanctuary all get enough air time to feel satisfying. And I think it results in a stronger product. Like it's such a simple story and Goliath is so heavily invested in what's happening because his friendship with Renard is so strong.

The only thing I don't really like about the episode is the ending. With Goliath turning down Halcyon's offer to send him home. It's quick and kind of shallow, and I think if there was some more incentive here for Goliath to keep going. Either the desire to search the world for surviving Gargoyle clans, or just have the Weird Sisters or Puck literally telling him "If you don't keep going, something terrible is going to happen". So there's some sort of... manifested, physical reality for him to deal with. Rather than a more nebulous or arbitrary "fate decrees we keep doing this". It feels weak to me, and I think kind of takes away a lot of Goliath's agency.


---------------------

Also I posted another short story. Part 2. I have no idea how many parts this is going to be (I have very long term plans for these characters) and they're pretty roughly written out (I'm very out of practice) but if anyone wants to check them out I'd really appreciate it. Again, they're kind of this sort of buddy road trip medieval type fantasy story about two guys on the run from the law, blending eastern and western mythology and spirituality.

Part 1, The Fox Hunt: https://www.tumblr.com/divine-descent/747722751954059264/divine-descent-1-the-fox-hunt?source=share
Part 2, Moonlit Meetings and Departures: https://www.tumblr.com/divine-descent/753345889917190144/divine-descent-2-moonlit-meetings-and-departures?source=share

I've actually written 4 of these at this point, which I'm pretty happy with myself for getting back into writing so much (especially when I've been so busy at work). But I'm staggering the release and probably wanna touch them up a bit more.

Alex

To be fair, living in a county with a wyvern on its flag and a wyvern sculpture in the centre of town, I hear "WYEvern" pronounced quite often but I've never heard "WIvern" (although I prefer the latter). I also have always used the short vowel in "Golem" although I think the longer one is probably more correct.

Given these words are transmuted across languages and across centuries, it doesn't bother me there being a range of pronunciations. Different case with Elisa/Eliza where the change makes it into a different word. It would be closer to calling the creatures wyverm or goloom. I guess in most cases vowel pronunciations are more fluid over time and regions - hence regional accents and, for that matter, the Great Vowel Shift.

Ed

Okay, I just finished the Golem podcast ep and this is hurting my brain: Why did people keep saying "gollum" instead of "goh-lem?" It's clearly the latter in the actual show. Similarly, why does Weisman sometimes say "Why-vern" instead of "Wih-vern?" I don't want to come off as that annoying nitpicker (too late, I'm sure), but it's really striking to me, especially since Greg went on a whole rant about people saying "Eliza" instead of "Elisa."
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

New "Voices"... (Apologies - haven't caught up with the conversation yet but I thought I'd post my responses).

Interesting point from Greg W about Demona being so popular according to Dynamite. I wonder how they're judging that though? Cover sales? Audience feedback? Social media buzz? Not a surprise - I think we all kind of expected that she would be this popular.

I liked the divergence onto the legal issues around Greg being on social media. (Just one reason why I wish he'd give up the hellsite and return to Ask Greg) and intriguing to get some insight into the logic behind which Mayan gargoyles retrieved the amulet.

Don't know if we've had it confirmed before (we probably have) that Tony is third generation. Makes me feel even more excited for the prospect of some kind of "rise of the Dracons" timedance or other flashback story. Also slightly surprised that at any point Brod could have been a one-and-done. He's so richly drawn from the very start.

I do love "Golem". Easily in my top handful of World Tour episodes. I need to learn more about the golem myth.

Thanks to the fantastic four for another great podcast.

Ed

This is a quick drive by comment, but I do think it's a bit hilarious that Goliath got his unwanted riches bc he was in a position to convince an old guy to NOT be a Golem. How many in the search for the American Dream could hope for that?
Ftmb
FTBM

One other thought on the Golem. I once read a retelling of the story by David Wisniewski, which had a particularly delightful take on the Golem (if a different one than in the "Gargoyles" episode). After Rabbi Loew brings the Golem to life, it goes walking about Prague, staring up at the sky in wonder, before the Rabbi gives it the assignment to protect the Jewish community. At the end of the story, when Rabbi Loew prepares to shut the Golem down, the Golem pleads with him not to do this, finding the prospect of no longer being able to gaze upon the beauties of nature as an unbearable fate. I wanted to reread it, but when I checked my local library, I found out that while it had a few copies, they were all strictly "reference", unable to be checked out. A pity.
Todd Jensen

Is it too late to mention that we didn't bring up the tiara and gold forehead when we discussed "Sanctuary"?

LOL! I kid, of course we talked about that one!

Greg Bishansky

Phil> I thought they were just about to mention that as well, and then they ended up mentioning an old yellow-clothed guy being seen twice and I've never noticed that! Ha
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"

I enjoyed the latest podcast, but I was hoping for an explanation, or at least a mention, of the pink-haired villager woman in the flashback. How did that happen?
Phil - [p1anderson at yahoo dot com]

Getting Home> I've always felt that the "where you need to be clue" from Guardian should've tipped the travelers off at least a little bit, still they were very focused on getting home and maybe were being hopefully naive.

Still, the destinations before "Golem" might've led them to think home really could've been the next stop. First they go to Wyvern Hill. This is home for Goliath and Bronx. So, Avalon sent them home, it just got a bit confused. They return to Avalon and try again to find Manhattan. Instead they end up on an island on the other coast of North America. Okay, sort of close, but wrong again, Avalon. Try again! This time they go back to Scotland. It's like Avalon is struggling with the address.

It is only when they arrive in Prague, with no big similarity to Manhattan or "home" and after a few adventures elsewhere that Tom's comment finally clicks for Goliath. That's how I've always seen it.

I only hope that they filled in [SPOILER] Jade and Turquesa better than Tom filled them in so there wasn't an expectation of a quick homecoming on their part. I don't know how long Jade and Turquesa stayed on Avalon working on their transplants, but it seems the Mayan gargoyles are having a lengthier world tour than Goliath and Co. did. They've been gone from Guatemala for 14 months so far! [/SPOILER]

Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"

JURGAN> "Funny story, thanks to Greg's comments on Mab I just assumed she was a character in Midsummer Night's Dream. My English professor brought up Mab and I said something like "Oh yeah, Oberon's mother." She was a little confused, it wasn't until later that I realized since Greg "revealed" that Mab was Oberon's mother, that meant it wasn't Shakespearean canon."

Yeah, I always thought it was a cool idea, though. It makes sense when you draw in these elements to keep a consistent universe. Plus it nicely dovetails with mythology about gods overthrowing the previous generation. And I hope we get to see it featured some time in Gargoyles canon. Given enough time and issues, of course.

Greg Bishansky

"Agreed. Mab was an off-stage Shakespeare character, and we know that given enough issues, we're getting her some day."

Funny story, thanks to Greg's comments on Mab I just assumed she was a character in Midsummer Night's Dream. My English professor brought up Mab and I said something like "Oh yeah, Oberon's mother." She was a little confused, it wasn't until later that I realized since Greg "revealed" that Mab was Oberon's mother, that meant it wasn't Shakespearean canon.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

One moment in last night's podcast on "Golem" particularly stood out to me; the part where, in discussing the moment where Goliath realizes that the Avalon World Tour is meant to happen and they should focus on fulfilling their mission rather than on getting back to Manhattan, they compared it to the "Dungeons and Dragons" cartoon from the 1980's, where the cast were constantly looking for a way home over and over and failing each time (which has been cited as an example of the drawback of a series where the main characters have a specific goal which, if achieved, would automatically end the story). The comparison felt all the more apt to me, since there were several fairly obvious hints in that cartoon that the main characters were meant to be in that world to accomplish something (though what it was, was never revealed), and they never seemed to grasp it, but kept on focusing on finding a way home. Goliath has a reputation for being a bit slow (probably the most memorable comment on that being when Greg Weisman, in an earlier podcast, compared him to Winnie-the-Pooh - a moment where we'll probably never see Goliath quite the same way again), but he still came to that realization - just five episodes (four, if you discount "Kingdom" as a "home front" story).
Todd Jensen

MATT> "Think we'll get another Voices before Convergence?"

Our "Sanctuary" discussion has been recorded and is being edited as we speak. It'll definitely be out before CONvergence!

Speaking of CONvergence: on Friday, June 5th at 2pm CST, Jennifer and I will be on stage in the Nicollet ballroom with Greg Weisman (Series Creator), Thom Adcox (Voice of Lexington), Brigitte Bako (Voice of Angela), and Zehra Fazal (Voice of Shari)!

We hope to see you all there!

CRAIG> "Hey all - it's been a few weeks. I'm still not sure if I'll be able to make it to Convergence, but I regrettably most likely won't be able to, due to a couple of obligations."

Would have liked to see you there, it's going to be a good time!

"Overall, this is a really sturdy, high-quality book with an appealing presentation of great material. Aside from the annoying difficulty in viewing the double-page spreads without breaking the binding (an inescapable reality of these collections, which someone really needs to solve), I couldn't be happier with it, and it's been a joy having an excuse to revisit these stories again."

Agreed on all points. I love the TimeDancer double-spread and wish we could see all of it on the trades. But they went above and beyond with the extras and I hope that continues with the upcoming releases.

TODD> "I brought up Herne the Hunter and that he would make an appropriate Shakespearean character (if an off-stage one) to appear in "Gargoyles" someday"

Agreed. Mab was an off-stage Shakespeare character, and we know that given enough issues, we're getting her some day. I wouldn't be surprised if Herne is someone that Greg has yet to discuss with us.

Greg Bishansky

Voices> Yes, Golem was great! I liked the Brod links to the current stories and loved hearing everyone discuss how this episode shifted the focus from "getting home" to "completing a quest". I particularly liked Weisman's thoughts on Elisa and the "lost without me" line. It would come to be true, but it's also so Elisa. Good stuff.

Think we'll get another Voices before Convergence?

Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"

Matt: "Try to focus on what makes this franchise awesome and the renaissance we are having these past few years." I will engage with Gargoyles the same way I engage with all other media: by focusing, for good and for ill, on what's actually on the screen/page (and sometimes the author's out-of-universe declarations).

This means I'll have no problem complimenting the writers for the way they integrated the flashbacks from Awakening, Reawakening and City of Stone really well with each other, but it also means I'll have no problem noting that they could have made a better job to integrate the later Avalon flashback. I'll acknowledge that Vows is great and that the animations for The Mirror and Future Tense still look good decades later while also saying that Heritage is a slog to get through and that The Cage and Sanctuary were animated pretty poorly.

And as for the current renaissance: I won't deny that I like the ways in which Greg changed the status quo, that I quite enjoyed Dark Ages and that Quest has been pretty good so far - but that won't stop me from saying that the actual execution of Here in Manhattan was a s**tshow, that I find the idea that [SPOILER] both Excalibur and Puck's flute could be found at a walking distance from Wyvern [/SPOILER] ridiculous and that the stuff with the [SPOILER] Gathering of the Gargoyles Guild [/SPOILER] in Quest is some of the most shameless fanservice I've ever seen.

Algae: I rewatched both scenes before writing my comment, and trust me, that doesn't fit at all with what's actually shown on screen.

Craig: Welcome back, Craig - I was starting to wonder where you had ended up.

Todd: How long is the spoiler curfew in here? I mean, [SPOILER] that "certain event" you allude to [/SPOILER] was published all the way back in January, over five months ago - that feels like more than enough time to start talking about it clearly.

CarumboZabumbo
Noi siamo le creature della notte! Noi siamo... i Gargoyles!

"Voices from the Eyrie" just came out with a podcast on "Golem". [SPOILER] A story that takes on new significance, by the way, after a certain event in the latter part of "Here in Manhattan", and they bring it up. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen

Hey all - it's been a few weeks. I'm still not sure if I'll be able to make it to Convergence, but I regrettably most likely won't be able to, due to a couple of obligations.

I did finally get my signed hardcover copy of the first Here in Manhattan collection, and I have a few thoughts...

I agree with Ed's comments awhile ago: I appreciate the number "1" on the book's spine, but am still rather baffled by there not being a "Volume 1" on the cover. I'm curious to see how they title the next collection.

I'm also a bit perplexed by what appears to be the Freedom Tower featured prominently on both the spine and title page, as well as the chapter heading pages. A very identifiable Manhattan landmark to be sure, but an anachronistic one to the 1997 setting.

Speaking of the title page, does anyone have thoughts on the kneeling gargoyle depicted in silhouette? It's an unusual pose, with potentially religious connotations. A Praying Gargoyle?

Love Greg's intro, especially the final sentence, which I really hope proves to be prophetic...

There are a couple of color artists credited, who haven't been mentioned before: Andrea Izzo and Josh Rodriguez. They may have worked on issues 4 and/or 5 where the coloring credit was just "Arancia Studios."

Oh, and Giulia Giacomino's name is misspelled on the main credits page.

Love the "in process" section. I always find it fascinating to read comic book scripts. A few things I noted:

Love that the Five Families meeting was chosen for this section. I recall Greg being really excited about this page when he spoke on the Voices from the Eyrie podcast.

George chose to leave out the scripted table lamp in the Five Families meeting, and instead lit the scene with a window...which plays nicely, as he also divides the panels up using a window-pane motif. He also changed the order the gangsters are seated at the table for the wide shot, which I think is a good decision (so that they're not just all speaking in turn going round-robin around the table...the speaking order becomes more random and natural).

Love all Greg's scripted descriptions of the various gangsters' attitudes. The ability to characterize each with a single word is impressive.

One thing I've always wondered about: is it exclusively the letterer's decision to emphasize certain words? Most comic book scripts I've read don't indicate which words to bold/italicize, so I wonder if that's entirely to the discretion of the person assigned to lettering. If so, that's a part of that job that I rarely see acknowledged or appreciated. By choosing which words to emphasize, the letterer is essentially being an actor in their own way, influencing the way the reader "hears" the line delivery. If that's the case, then I'd like to give additional kudos to Mr. Eckleberry.

Overall, this is a really sturdy, high-quality book with an appealing presentation of great material. Aside from the annoying difficulty in viewing the double-page spreads without breaking the binding (an inescapable reality of these collections, which someone really needs to solve), I couldn't be happier with it, and it's been a joy having an excuse to revisit these stories again.

Small update on my rewatch of Gummi Bears: I recently saw an episode called "The Knights of Gummadoon," which takes the musical Brigadoon as its conceptual inspiration (the episode is written by Tad Stones). I found this mildly interesting, as Greg has mentioned that he considered using Brigadoon on Gargoyles before realizing it was under copyright. Also, the basic plot of the Gummi episode resembles "The New Olympians": the Gummies' human friend Cavin is captured by another group of Gummies, who believe all humans are irredeemable due to persecution they've suffered in the past.

Craig

The City of Stone flashback is from Demona's POV. So of course she doesn't hear any quiet exchanges between Princess Katherine and co, or pay heed to any other humans in the vicinity not dealing with the eggs.
Algae
'Nuff said

I say that it isn't a big deal. I wouldn't call it a retcon since it changes nothing. And I hesitate to even call it an error since both scenes might have happened at two different moments. They could've just been moving the wagons around or whatever.

So, no, it doesn't bother me. If it bothers you, then close your eyes and take a deep breath when that scene comes up. It'll all be over in a moment.

We've got the "two Hudsons and a Bronx" scene. We've got several moments in "City of Stone" itself where Lexington is shown with wings like Goliath's. We've got some truly rough animation in places. Animation work was being done by various studios at the same time. And don't forget that the production team was tasked with a massive undertaking for Season 2. They didn't have the free time that you seem to think they did. The fact that they had the foresight to even add the wagon moment to "City of Stone" is pretty amazing. Were mistakes made? Sure, unavoidable. But I wouldn't dwell on this. Assuming it is a mistake at all, it is incredibly inconsequential.

Try to focus on what makes this franchise awesome and the renaissance we are having these past few years. It's a great time to be a Gargoyles fan!

Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"

Random question: does it bother anyone else that the two scenes from the tv show where we see the Eggs being taken away from Castle Wyvern are completely impossible to fit with each other?

In City of Stone Part One, the scene is very brief: we see Tom, Katharine and the Magus put the Eggs on a single cart, nobody says a word, there's nobody else around, and we see Tom sitting in the front of the cart.

In Avalon Part One, though, the scene is longer and way different: aside from Tom, Katharine and the Magus there's also Mary and a few extras, we see them putting lots of stuff on several carts, there's an entire dialogue going on (which includes Tom being named Guardian of the Eggs) and at the end Tom sits in the back of the cart, together with the Eggs.

Now, don't get me wrong - this ain't a big deal: the essence of the two scenes is the same even though the details differ; still, it's a bit of a pity that the writers dropped the ball on this, considering how well they had been previously able to integrate the flashbacks from Reawakening and City of Stone into Awakening.

What do you say?

CarumboZabumbo
Noi siamo le creature della notte! Noi siamo... i Gargoyles!

This post is a very detailed review of an important topic. I feel like I have improved my knowledge after reading it. https://connectionsnytgame.io
Connections NYT - [dhghg at gmail dot com]

CarumboZabumbo> I was referring to those 100 Page Spectacular comics and not necessarily text stories, just thoughts I was tossing out.
Antiyonder

CARUMBO: Fox is an awful person (at least at this point in the series), but she's not responsible for her actions as the Werefox. She didn't know the Eye would turn her into a mindless monster. The fact that it brought out her 'inner darkness' is hardly a condemnation of her. The Eye does that to everyone, even a virtual moral paragon like Goliath. IF anything, Goliath has less excuse as he was well aware of the risks of using the Eye.

Fara and Tea both made some damn poor life choices, but they hardly deserve to be hunted down and slain for it. Heck, Tea at the start of the ep IS the "Van Helsing". Her whole arc is about moving past that.

As for Vamps, I like my undead hellbound abominations as much as anyone (tho even the dammned are still people), but Goliath already laid out the foundational thesis of the entire Gargoyles mythos waaay back in _Awakenings Part 5_.

"There is good and evil in all off us, human and gargoyle alike."

Everything in this world, the entire narrative, is built on that declaration. None of the countless characters that populate this setting are entirely sinless, or utterly beyond redemption. No such thing as pure evil can exist in the Gargoyles Universe. (Frankly, I'm not convinced such a thing logically can exist at all.)

Which is not to say you can't have indivudual vamps who are gleefully murderous bastards. Let's not forget the historical Vlad Tepes did things that would probably makes Bram Stoker faint while remaining an oridinary Homo sapien.

Algae
'Nuff said.

Algae: Fair point about Robyn, but frankly I'd be hard-pressed to call her current iteration a proper hunter character (despite her name and backstory); not sure I'm able to articulate why, but it doesn't quite sound right - I mean, Dingo, Yama and the others all do the exact same job as her, but I'd never call them "hunters".

"A "Van Helsing type" in the Gargverse would, I feel, have to be VERY discerning to keep from crossing the Moral Event Horizon." Well, everybody who fights evil needs to be discerning about it; Elisa can't just arrest whoever she pleases, Goliath can't just attack any random human, Rory Dugan can't just turn into Cu Chullain because someone stole his parking spot... This hypothetical "good hunter" wouldn't be any different.

"We've already seen weres in canon and they're largely unwitting victims of magical curses." Eh; Fox may have been unwitting, but at the end of the day the Eye of Odin did nothing more than give her inner beast a more proper shape, so I woulnd't go so far as to call her a victim; Fara Maku went to Anansi of his own volition; of the three currently known Weres, Tea Gora is the closest to being a proper victim, and she was hardly a saint either (although it's up to debate how much of her behavior was the result of what had happened to her and how much of it came naturally).

But ok, sure, there probably are some perfectly nice Werewolves out there who were infected against their will and would never do the same to another person.

"And while we don't really know anything about Gargverse vamps yet, I imagine they'd fall all along the moral spectrum just like gargoyles, humans, Oberon's Children, New Olympians, ghosts, self-aware AI, aliens and whatever other weirdies are out there. There is no such thing as Always Chaotic Evil in the Gargverse."

Eh; I admit I'm getting a bit tired of nice Vampires who only drink the blood of animals and/or get all the blood they need from hospitals; sometimes I just want my hellbound undead abominations to simply be hellbound undead abominations, you know?

Also: now that I think about it, Solomon Kane is another hunter-type character that would fit fairly well into the GargVerse; pity he's copyrighted.

CarumboZabumbo
Noi siamo le creature della notte! Noi siamo... i Gargoyles!

We already have a "positve" Hunter in the form of Robyn Canmore, (non-lethally) hunting bad guys.

A "Van Helsing type"* in the Gargverse would, I feel, have to be VERY discerning to keep from crossing the Moral Event Horizon. We've already seen weres in canon and they're largely unwitting victims of magical curses. Even Fox wouldn't have deserved a silver bullet during Eye of the Beholder

And while we don't really know anything about Gargverse vamps yet, I imagine they'd fall all along the moral spectrum just like gargoyles, humans, Oberon's Children, New Olympians, ghosts, self-aware AI, aliens and whatever other weirdies are out there.

There is no such thing as Always Chaotic Evil in the Gargverse.

*Also, I kinda low-key hate that "Van Helsing" had become pop culture shorthand for monster hunter. The Abraham van Helsing of Stoker's novel was - before all else - a doctor, a healer. If he had to stake an undead abomination for the sake of his patient or to spare a soul from walking damnation, so be it. But that was never his primary agenda.

Algae
'Nuff said.

Jurgan: "Not sure if there are any other stories like that in the pipeline." If there aren't, there should be; if Dynamite is willing to publish new Gargoyles stories in this format, it'd be a waste to only do it once for a story that (for the most part) already existed.

Antiyonder: Maybe I'm not understanding your point, but I fail to see why we should wait for Greg to get a 100-pages book (something that is perfectly possible will never happen) to get more short text stories when Dynamite has shown that it's willing to publish them right now.

I agree that it would be nice to get a Canon version of The Last, and that "sending a repairman to the Clock Tower" story sounds fun as well (did Greg mention it anywhere? I think it's the first time I hear about it); the Bronx/Cagney adventure probably needs visuals to work properly, though (since the main characters can't speak).

About a new hunter character joining the cast: IMO, having a new hunter antagonist would be redundant even if you tried to make them distinct - between the Pack and the Hunters/Quarrymen, that market is simply too well cornered; a positive character would be more interesting - a hunter of Weres and Vampires, perhaps, since we know both of those are a thing in the GargVerse ("Silver be for Vampires and Weres; for the Children, cold iron will do"). I'm not familiar with Herne, but since Greg has said that he wants to do a Dracula story at some point, he may bring in Professor Abraham Van Helsing as well (or one or more descendants of his, to create a positive counterpart to the Canmore family).

CarumboZabumbo
Noi siamo le creature della notte! Noi siamo... i Gargoyles!

MATT - Yes, I recall that line - and it was a rare example of the gargoyles as the hunters rather than the hunted. (And they were obviously hunting for food - an element which, as I commented yesterday, was generally left out of the "humans hunting gargoyles" motif.)
Todd Jensen

Not hugely impactful, but Second did tell Demona in 1040 that "the hunting there was good!" when they had to move due to the discovery and attack of the clan by Duncan.
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"

MATTHEW - A good comment on one aspect of the hunt that didn't appear in "Gargoyles". (Although the Hunters were focusing their hunt on Demona, they weren't doing it to protect humanity from her, but out of private revenge - with the nice touch, in the "lost scene" between Elisa and Jason, that they'd been hunting her for so long they could no longer remember how it began.) Given that the various hunters in the series were generally the gargoyles' adversaries, it's not surprising that such an aspect was left out.

Shakespeare's depiction of Herne (which I quoted last week) does make him seem too malevolent for such a role, but there are more favorable takes on him. I also mentioned Susan Cooper's "The Dark is Rising" books last week; in them, Herne's quarry is the forces of darkness, which he drives away to protect humanity from them (and there's a hint in the last book in the series that he might be an alter ego of King Arthur - who was himself given hunting exploits in legend, and even depicted in folklore as the leader of the Wild Hunt - more to say about that in my next post).

Todd Jensen

Todd> I remember this was a topic of discussion some odd years ago (not sure exactly when) where the motif of the hunt was used in Greg's work. And one such point was the more "noble" aspects of the hunt (like the Imakandi of Samurai Jack or Roland Tembo of The Lost World) haven't really shown up in any of Greg's characters yet.

Naturally Gargoyles has a whole slew of different characters and groups who fit the role of a hunter, none of them particularly good. Between Pack members who are downright psychotic to the Hunters who pursue Demona and the gargoyles with cold, single-minded intent.

Spectacular Spider-Man has Kraven who while respectful towards wild animals has no such qualms against hunting people and he only gets worse once he gets his Extreme Makeover: Jungle Cat Edition.

Plus Callahan of Rain of the Ghosts leans more heavily into the "hunting" side of things while Rain is given the more benevolent title of Searcher.

If Herne has more noble qualities but still kept the hunter look and mindset it would a distinct change in things.

Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Last week, I brought up Herne the Hunter and that he would make an appropriate Shakespearean character (if an off-stage one) to appear in "Gargoyles" someday, because of the hunting motif in the series. I also thought he'd need his own unique angle to keep him distinct from other gargoyle-hunters (alongside his being a ghost, of course), which led to my looking over the different approaches towards gargoyle-hunting in the series.

The two leading such groups in the series - adversaries whose pursuit of the gargoyles evoked hunting - are the Pack and the Hunters. The Pack's approach towards gargoyle-hunting was for sport, the thrill of the chase (at least initially; later, it turned into more conventional "they foiled our schemes, and we want to get even with them" super-villain-style feuding) - with the irony that the Pack were themselves named after animals (if hunting animals). The Hunters' motives, on the other hand, were a mixture of revenge (I don't know how much that's a motive for hunting in real life, though it's certainly become one in fiction; Captain Ahab's vendetta against Moby-Dick being the obvious big case - Ahab was even driven by a permanent "scarring", like Gillecomgain, the first Hunter - if you ignore Constantine's own go at it) and a belief that the gargoyles were monstrous predators that should be eradicated.

One major real-life motive for hunting, food, never showed up in "Gargoyles" (except maybe for the moment in "Upgrade" where Hyena wonders whether gargoyles taste like chicken, and seems eager to find out), which I think makes sense. I suspect that the Disney higher-ups and Standards & Practices would have been uneasy about the prospect of eating sentient beings, at least in a serious dramatic setting. (Also, I can't imagine Castaway and his followers, at least, even considering eating the gargoyles; they'd see them as unnatural, demonic creatures, with a tone of "We don't want those abominations anywhere near our mouths.")

Another real-life reason for hunting, for body parts, did get one moment in "The Price", where Xanatos captures Hudson for a piece of stone skin. Other than that, we haven't seen any examples of that yet (though the mundane version of such hunting did get into "Mark of the Panther" with the panther-poachers).

What Herne's motives for hunting gargoyles might be, if he ever showed up, is difficult to say. His being a ghost would rule out the "hunting for food" motive. Vengeance or thrill-seeking would be more likely motives, but they'd have to be handled differently from those of the Pack or the Hunters. (Shakespeare's description of Herne suggested more general malevolence, so the Gargoyles Universe version of him might be less focused on gargoyles than the Pack or Hunters are, of course.)

Todd Jensen

Trying to remember if I saw it years ago, but watching a 1987 Hansel and Gretel movie on TubiTV, and the father Stefan is played by David Warner.
Antiyonder

Well, if he ever gets to do something like a 100 page book, I wonder if it might have a story set in the comic's present with some or one back up with Pre-S3 stuff or so on.

Like the Team Atlantis story if given clearance to use the property (Or analogues), the story of someone sending a repair person to the Clock Tower cause Lexington disables it from functioning.

Or even Bronx's little adventure during Vendetta and Turf.

Antiyonder

'Now, call me crazy, but I don't think someone at Dynamite went to Weisman and said "Greg, you absolutely have to write for us a version of that story only 30 people on the entire planet know exists!" - there's a 99% chance that Greg went to them and asked if he could have a few pages to finally make Three Brothers Canon.'

I'm pretty sure Greg went over that in one of the Eyrie podcasts, and you're more or less right. Basically, he wanted to make it canon but couldn't justify a whole Gargoyles comic with no gargoyles in it, so he asked to include it as a text supplement. Not sure if there are any other stories like that in the pipeline.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Fourth.

I've had a thought: each issue of Dark Ages featured the text story Tale of the Three Brothers, which was actually just a rewrite of Once Upon a Time There Were Three Brothers, which Weisman published over a decade ago here on Ask Greg.

Now, call me crazy, but I don't think someone at Dynamite went to Weisman and said "Greg, you absolutely have to write for us a version of that story only 30 people on the entire planet know exists!" - there's a 99% chance that Greg went to them and asked if he could have a few pages to finally make Three Brothers Canon.

This means that they're willing to listen to him about what ends up into the books, meaning that, IMO, he should seize the chance and do something with it.

For example: Quest could have had short text stories in the back about Demona's life; the next maxiseries could have something from, say, TimeDancer - not the big stuff like "how did Brook and Katana meet" or "how did he lose his eye", but a few minor adventures to whet everybody's appetite; if we get a mini of the Clan vs. the Illuminati we could get something about the Society, if we get the Four Tricksters story we could get some stuff about their respective myths and so on. No reason for Three Brothers to be the exception.

Thoughts?

CarumboZabumbo
Noi siamo le creature della notte! Noi siamo... i Gargoyles!

Third!
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"

Second
Phil - [p1anderson at yahoo dot com]

First.
Todd Jensen