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Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending July 21, 2024

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I also had a good chuckle when Bishansky said (roughly) "There has been a lot of anxiety in the world the last few years. I'm not naming names, but I think you all know who I mean. We've had to go through Tru- trials and tribulations."
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

The "Voices" hosts are too humble. Y'all didn't just happen to be there when the comic revival started, you were a part of reviving it. Without the podcast, would there be a Dynamite comic? Probably, but the chances go down. The Disney + streaming and the Neca figure sales were certainly the biggest contributors, but you deserve to take a bow nonetheless.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Voices #50 was a good time. Glad CONvergence went well. Since UK school terms run much later than many other countries (we don't break up til Tuesday) there was no way I was ever going to be able to make this one but hopefully one day it'll work out.

Pity that "Quest" is delayed again. Fingers crossed the rest of it and the anniversary run can stay on track.

Ed

I'll be giving Quest 1 and 2 a re-read myself soon in preparation for the release of 3. I've got slim hopes that the digital version will drop on Tuesday night instead of a week later. There have been so many delays and rescheduling of this one that I'm thinking Amazon might've got their wires crossed. We'll see.
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"

An odd little coincidence today. I decided to reread "Gargoyle Quest" #2 this afternoon, and was surprised to see that the major events in it were dated by the captions to July 20 - meaning that I was reading it on the anniversary of the events in it. I'd forgotten that it was set on that date, making its timing a real surprise for me.
Todd Jensen

Checking in with my Hill Street Blues rewatch, now in early season 6 (after Steve Bochco had been forced out, with David Milch now running the show). The Gargoyles cast members I've come across so far are: Jonathan Frakes (as a sleazy drug dealer), Brent Spiner (as a sleazy porno producer), CCH Pounder (small role as a prostitute, then a larger role as the wife of a Vietnam vet who ends up holding her hostage), Charlie Hallahan (as a racist narcotics detective), Hector Elizondo (as a corrupt police captain), and James Avery (as a guy having repeated parking disputes with a pimp which become violent). In the episode I watched tonight, Elizondo and Hallahan reprise their roles in an uncredited, audio-only conversation between their two characters that is heard on a tape recording. Both their voices are of course very distinctive, and I was delighted at the unexpected surprise of hearing them share a "scene."

On a similar topic, around the time that Steve Bochco passed away, Greg mentioned that he had conducted an interview with Bochco as part of a book that Greg and his brother were planning to write on Hill Street, a project that never came to fruition. I wonder if Greg would ever consider making that interview publicly available, as it would certainly be a fascinating historical document.

Craig

"Incidentally, I've a book with a similar premise (archaeologists getting the story spectacularly wrong): "Motel of the Mysteries" by David Macaulay. In it, North America is buried under an avalanche of junk mail (which dates the story, of course); long afterwards, archaeologists are excavating, and discover what the reader recognizes as a motel, but which they interpret as a temple-and-tomb complex. (It's filled with take-offs on classic real archaeological events - Pompeii, Schliemann's excavations at Troy, and Tutenkhamen's tomb among them.) It makes fun reading."

The Fallout game series is loaded with gags like that. They're set decades after a nuclear war, so people see the remnants of American society and make up stories about what they might have meant. One of my favorites is in the ruins of Las Vegas, someone found the "King School of Impersonation," which they interpreted to be some sort of temple. So they created a gang called "The Kings" who dressed and talked like Elvis (not knowing his name) as a sign of devotion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YS0A0_gngPY

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Why? What's wrong with saying E-EEEEeeeee!
(Falls down trapdoor)

Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

JUGAN - And we all thank you for just writing "a diplomat". No need to mention his name. :)
Todd Jensen

Jurgan> "Todd: Okay, I'll make the obvious joke: "Goliath went on trial, I think it was for robbing a jewelry store. And a politician kidnapped Alex and Lexington had to save him. And the Illuminati brainwashed Goliath to kill a diplomat. And there was that time the Quarreymen attacked a train...""

That's a hilarious thought.

And I agree that learning more about Elisa's pre-Awakening career would be interesting and something I thought the Marvel comic did well (ish). One day I'm sure we'll get more back story here.

Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"

And the "concrete driveways" bot made what was essentially the same post just three minutes after its first post. (I still wonder if the "concrete driveways" business it's working for is just a scam. And I can't resist imagining a scenario where the scam has already been shut down and the people behind it doing time in prison for fraud, but the bot doesn't know that and is continuing to post advertisements in comment rooms.)
Todd Jensen

Finally found my Desdemona avatar.
Algae
You are loved.

Margot Yale has found the Comment Room, I see.
Algae
You are loved.

I don't think the bots are aware that was kind of the point of Taro's scheme, to have Goliath and the gargoyles be gawked at for the public's satisfaction.

What difference does it make if the idea is establishing gargoyle/human relationships or improving the public perceptions of them if the end result is still a sentient being being kept under lock and key against his will and put on display like a piece of advertisement?

Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Good point about the record not having had that much opportunity to get distorted by 2198 (especially with Owen and Alex around).

Incidentally, I've a book with a similar premise (archaeologists getting the story spectacularly wrong): "Motel of the Mysteries" by David Macaulay. In it, North America is buried under an avalanche of junk mail (which dates the story, of course); long afterwards, archaeologists are excavating, and discover what the reader recognizes as a motel, but which they interpret as a temple-and-tomb complex. (It's filled with take-offs on classic real archaeological events - Pompeii, Schliemann's excavations at Troy, and Tutenkhamen's tomb among them.) It makes fun reading.

Macaulay also wrote a few more serious books on building landmarks in ancient and medieval times; one, "Castle", dealt with the building of a castle (fictional, but based on the real concentric castles built by Edward I in northern Wales). Many years ago, PBS adapted it to the television screen, doing it as a mixture of live-action exploring actual medieval castles with the story of the castle from the book, done in animation. When I first saw "Awakening", the Castle Wyvern scenes at the beginning reminded me a lot of the animated scenes in the PBS adaptation of "Castle"; what made the similar feel stand out all the more was that the castle in Macaulay's book was named Aberwyvern. I've wondered whether whoever on the "Gargoyles" production team came up with Castle Wyvern's name was influenced by Macaulay's "Castle".

Todd Jensen

CarumboZabumbo > I agree with you that the premise of that story is really interesting. The execution is obviously somewhat problematic in places, but overall, I think those are the two strongest issues of the Marvel series by far.
Craig

Well as far as references to Non-Canon fare manifesting as inaccurate accounts of history:

"Yeah Demona worked with an assassin who was... Don't think he had a name. Maybe he was Canadian, like that voice actor from X-Men The Animated Series.

The gang leader who framed Goliath also didn't get a specified name. Torgo, Peter, Bruce?"

Antiyonder

Exactly right; and say what you will about the execution, but I think the premise of that story - Elisa learns that she may have earned her detective badge on a wrongful arrest and investigates to find out the truth - was very worthwhile; in fact, it makes me wish that Greg would do something with Elisa's pre-Gargoyles past in Canon too.
CarumboZabumbo
Noi siamo le creature della notte! Noi siamo... i Gargoyles!

Jurgan > Carumbo is referencing the 1990s Gargoyles comic from Marvel. Specifically, issues 10 and 11.
Craig

ZAFIRO: "You know what, I'll just say it: my favorite story about Elisa is that time she went undercover as a prostitute to stop a serial killer."

All right, I'll bite: What's that referencing?

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Jurgan - You came in second, but thanks anyway. Also, slightly less obvious joke:

ZAFIRO: "You know what, I'll just say it: my favorite story about Elisa is that time she went undercover as a prostitute to stop a serial killer."
BROOKLYN: "...I need a drink."

CarumboZabumbo
Noi siamo le creature della notte! Noi siamo... i Gargoyles!

The comic in question was Amazing Spider-Man #439, the last standalone issue before the ill-fated Mackie/Byrne reboot. https://i.annihil.us/u/prod/marvel/i/mg/3/d0/57d85a0591e19/clean.jpg

Todd: Okay, I'll make the obvious joke: "Goliath went on trial, I think it was for robbing a jewelry store. And a politician kidnapped Alex and Lexington had to save him. And the Illuminati brainwashed Goliath to kill a diplomat. And there was that time the Quarreymen attacked a train..."

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Algae - Thank you!

Matt - Good point about Brooklyn not knowing what's going to hatch from Egwardo, I had forgotten about it; that being the case, I guess I'm gonna lean even more into the idea of Tachi being dead by 2198 - otherwise, even if she were to give Brook no spoilers about his future, I don't think it'd be possible for him to meet her without figuring out who she is (because come on, we all know she'll look like Katana but with Brooklyn's colors).

Still, Brooklyn may meet his own descendents through either her or Nashville (or the mysterious third child that I believe will never come to pass, for one reason or another).

CarumboZabumbo
Noi siamo le creature della notte! Noi siamo... i Gargoyles!

CARUMBO> I believe Jurgan is referring to Amazing Spider-Man Vol 1 #439 by Tom Defalco and Rafael Kayanan. One of the very last issues of the original volume published before Marvel rebooted all the Spider titles with all new No. 1s in 1998.
Algae
'Nuff said

Carumbo> I think the possibility of Tachi being alive in 2198 has been discussed. She would be quite old, but it isn't impossible as you said. I think it could be fascinating for Brooklyn to meet her during his time there. It would likely be different than a human meeting their own biological child in such a way. To Tachi, Brooklyn will only be one of her fathers. Still, a poignant moment for them both.

That said, the fact the Brooklyn has been calling the egg Egwardo and has said "him or her" when refering to the egg means he probably doesn't know who exactly will hatch from it. He might meet Tachi in 2198 and merely know her as a very elederly member of the Manhattan Clan.

Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"

Jurgan - Do you remember the name of that Spider-Man comic? I'd be interested in reading it.

Todd - I think there's an important difference, though, between that Batman episode (it was called "Artifacts", by the way) and 2198: in the former case, a longer amount of time had passed - a thousand years - and there was no connection between Batman and those future archeologists - he was only known to them as a legend.

In the case of 2198, on the other hand, comparatively less time has passed - "only" 200 years - and there's a big connection between the classic and the new characters - namely, the fact that the Manhattan Clan is still there, in the exact same place, and its members are (at least in part) the descendents of the original main characters; presumably, they would be very interested in preserving knowledge about their illustrious ancestors, especially after Goliath became an important historical figure on account of his role in the passing of the Gargoyle Minority Protection Act.

Heck, considering that Gargoyles can live twice as long as humans, there's actually a chance some of the oldest members of the Clan could have known Goliath and the others back in the day; at the very least, we know Owen and Alexander will still be around, and both of them could give the new generations perfectly accurate information on the past.

This isn't to say that there could be no historical innacuracies confronting Brooklyn when he comes along, but nothing, I think, on the scale of "Goliath was twelve feet tall and could shoot lasers from his eyes".

Slight change of topic: has the possibility of Tachi still being alive in 2198 to meet Brooklyn (and eventually Katana) ever been discussed? She'd be 200 (biologically 100) by that point, which is not an impossible age for a Gargoyle to reach (see Old Pog from the London Clan). My guess is "probably deceased, but I wouldn't be too shocked if it were otherwise".

CarumboZabumbo
Noi siamo le creature della notte! Noi siamo... i Gargoyles!

MATTHEW - Congratulations on your new title (and, yes, the "Silver Falcon" version of Broadway would make a great matching avatar).

JURGAN - Thanks for sharing that with us. Now I'm wondering (actually, I began wondering it after my Tom Stoppard post last week) whether Brooklyn might discover a lot of equally dramatic misconceptions about the 1990's Manhattan clan when he visits 2198 - misconceptions on so big a scale that his response would be "That's so wrong in so many ways, I don't know where to begin."

Todd Jensen

I may not be first, but this is the first week of me using my new title.

The reasoning is rather funny; I usually wear my lucky fedora when at conventions for a few reasons: it's stylish, comfortable, helps me stand out and most importantly protects my head. Since I lost most of my hair at a young age and I'm paler than an Irishman (Algae can verify this), wearing hats is a necessity.

Anyway, I wore my fedora to the radio play audition before going to the autograph line. And I kid you not, both Brigitte and Thom excitedly, and almost simultaneously, exclaimed, "Hey! The Fedora Guy!" when they saw me. Hence the addition to my regular name.
Alas, we don't have an avatar of Detective Broadway to complete the look.

Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Todd: Responding to your comment about Arcadia and "The Batman," there was a Spider-Man comic in the late 90's with a similar premise. Future archaeologists were speculating about Spider-Man's role in the "Age of Heroes." They assume he must have been extremely popular given how well-loved he is in the future, then cut to contradicting scenes. They described Mary Jane as the "first lady of superheroes," then showed her sitting at home by herself. They found a discarded webshooter buried under rock and wondered if they'd discovered the legendary "Spider-Cave," complete with a Batcave-esque splash page, then cut back to present and see how Spidey's hand got crushed under a rock and he had to ditch the webshooter.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

And yet we shall go FOURTH together.

(Matt's signature is unusually apt.)

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

They're really making us wait for that THIRD issue.
CarumboZabumbo
Noi siamo le creature della notte! Noi siamo... i Gargoyles!

I SECOND that!
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"

First!

Man, I'm itching for more comics. Hurts my soul that the issue has been delayed as much as it has...

Kate