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Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending August 4, 2024

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[SPOILER]
I think that, pre-Gathering, Owen COULD have told Xanatos things he learned as Puck, but he WOULDN'T because of the deal. But Oberon's rules are much stricter, and require a direct, immediate object rather than a hypothetical one. For example, in the 2198 pitch, it's stated that Owen can't turn into Puck because Alex is gone and there's no way to help him. To me, it seems like "I should turn into Puck and stay that way until we get Alex back" is a valid argument. But OTOH, if you allow that sort of indirect justification, then it becomes so malleable that almost anything can be allowed. "I should really kill all of Xanatos's enemies as Puck, that would make Alex safer. And if I steal all their resources, I can teach him about how to use them!"
[/SPOILER]

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

morrand> [SPOILER] Puck may be able to "cheat" that kinda stuff a bit by storing the flute in a neutral location Owen ALSO knows about (which would be necessary for Demona to force him to give it to her, because giving her the flute doesn't protect or teach anything to Alex). In other words, Owen likely keeps the flute in his desk drawer or something. But there's no way to cheat that for Demona's location. Owen has never been there.

As for revealing that the Pied Piper of Hamelin was the Puck... Owen didn’t actually directly answer the question. Lex asked about the flute’s uses. He mentioned it has many, and have you heard of the Pied Piper.

“That was you?”

“Once upon a time”

Which is another way of saying: “The story is told, though who can say if it be true?”

It’s confirmation without actually saying “yes”. It's fairly classic "bend without breaking" which Puck is the foremost expert at. But there's simply no way to do that for the townhouse address. Just as Owen could never give Xanatos the information that the gargoyles were living in the Clock Tower. But we did get that "obviously the gargoyles wouldn't destroy their own Clock Tower" line in "Hunter's Moon Part Three".

For all we know, the townhouse might not even be under the name "Dominique Destine".

As for revealing the flute's power has increased? The rules around that are probably a bit squirrelly because the only times he's gonna retrieve it (as Owen) will be to then immediately turn into Puck and play it for Alex. And it's possible the increased power of the flute is something Owen can tell without relying on Puck-knowledge... maybe there are signs like it glowing or being warm to the touch or something. I wouldn't put it past David to have assigned Owen to assist him with acquisitions of certain mystical items (i.e. the Cauldron of Life) which would mean doing at least some measure of research on sorcery in his human form, even if he doesn't practice it. [/SPOILER]

Greg Bishansky

Todd: Great catch. In a similar vein, [SPOILER] it occurs to me that this issue has one original aspect from each of the TPB volumes - or prospective TPB volumes - so far. We have Shari and the Illuminati numbering from Clan-Building 1, the hand of Valmont and the Carbonek trio from Clan-Building 2, Falstaff and Easthcheap Island from Redemption, Antoinette from Here in Manhattan 1 and Wyvern from Alliance. The only one missing is Here in Manhattan 2 but I’d say Coldstone’s treachery and his alliance with Demona counts on that front. It certainly helps give this story a real sense of scale.

Also, I don’t think I ever stop getting a kick out of the numbers. I don’t know what it is. I guess just the mystery of who these numbers are and what it shows about them but there’s also both a grandeur and a gleefulness to it. It’s such a simple conceit but such genius. [/SPOILER]

Ed

Jurgan and Greg B: In looking back at my comment I should have probably explained further. That was a first reaction, and it took a while to parse it into words, especially with everything else going on.

[SPOILER] First and simplest, yes, unlisted numbers exist (as do non-published numbers, but that's not relevant) and perhaps Owen couldn't just open the book and find Dominique Destine's listing and point to it, because it's not there. But phone books also usually contained maps, I know the New York directory did have maps at one time, and if he could not point to a listing, he might at least point to a place. But that's not especially what gives me suspicions. The scope of Puck's supposed mute spot (quickest term I can come up with for this) and whether it covers only speech or any communication at all isn't what bothers me.

He's supposedly limited to Owen Burnett's knowledge, or something close to it. Owen is not completely cut off from Puck. We know that absolutely, if simply because Owen identifies as Puck throughout. (It's "my flute," for example.) He seems perfectly fine with explaining that he used the flute many years ago as the Pied Piper, he seems perfectly fine with explaining that he used it recently with Alexander, he seems perfectly fine with saying it's suddenly gotten more powerful in a non-specific way, all of these things very plainly in Puck's knowledge, not Owen's. But then, suddenly, the one piece of information that would help to get the flute back, the one thing it seems like Owen Burnett might have been in a position to know personally, Puck or not, is something he cannot say. It seems a lot like Owen, as Owen, should have been keeping better tabs on Demona than that. The inconsistency stands out.

And the way this comes out--that he unexpectedly found himself unable to speak--also seems weird. I'll grant that this is all new grounds for Puck and he may not have learned all the rules yet, and is just learning this one. But did it not ever come up between him and David or Fox?

I don't know that he's lying, but he is not sounding quite honest to me at this moment in the story.

As to motives, I can think of a few, but nothing that is specifically backed by this story so far. The ease with which the third (purported) Key to Power is acquired at the end doesn't lend me a lot of confidence that things are really going the way Demona thinks they are, though.

Going way out over the edge into the realm of wild guessing: there is good reason to think that Demona getting all three Keys would be enough of a threat to Alexander (among others) that Puck ought to be able to protect him by, at least, telling someone where they are stashed during the following few months. If she's not gotten what she thinks she has, then no danger, then no need to protect Alexander, then no need (or ability) for Puck to say anything to anyone. And in fact, perhaps good reason to prevent the gargoyles from going over there and getting them back too quickly. If it makes time, say, to swap in a fake for the auction and secure the genuine article?

I suspect we won't have to wait long to find out what she has.
[/SPOILER]


I mean that last sentence in a relative sense, of course, given what seems to be the release schedule right now.

morrand - [morrand276 at gmail dot com]

Jurgan - [SPOILER] I agree that we don't really need to know every Rank 22 Illuminatus, but here's the thing: that being the case, I'd rather Rank 22 not be a thing at all. I'd prefer the Illuminati to be a more restricted group - say, the first ten ranks* - with a lot of external collaborators who help them out but aren't really Illuminati, because it feels a bit pointless to have dozens of ranks which, on account of the limits of storytelling, will have barely any representation or no representation at all.

*With ten ranks you'd have 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10=55, which feels like the absolute maximum number of members Greg might be able to introduce while giving them at least a modicum of relevance.

Also, I agree with you that there are probably Children of Oberon among the Illuminati - in fact, I think/hope that the last Rank 3 may be one of them. [/SPOILER]


Fedora Guy - [SPOILER] That's a pretty elegant solution to explain how Wyvern may have risen through the ranks; kudos. [/SPOILER]

Matt - [SPOILER] "It was all too easy." I think that's a consequence of Greg having to tell the entire story of Demona finding and using the Keys in a matter of five issues more than anything - see also: Toni simply being able to buy the third Key at an auction.

With that said, I don't think there's a plothole here: I believe we can simply infer that, when Puck stole back the Flute from Oberon, he teleported it to Owen's room - or wherever - so that he could access it, if necessary, in both his forms, and Demona just forced Owen to show her where it was hidden. I don't think Puck is playing any 4D-chess here. [/SPOILER]

CarumboZabumbo
Noi siamo le creature della notte! Noi siamo... i Gargoyles!

[SPOILER] I'd like to know exactly how Demona got the Flute from Owen. She couldn't force him to become Puck and fork it over, especially without Alex present. It is strange. I'm getting the suspicion that Puck might be playing a trick on Demona somehow. It was all too easy. [/SPOILER]
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"

A couple things that have been on my mind.
[SPOILER] For starters I've been thinking about the new Keys to Power. Puck's Flute is an interesting one because we've come to expect certain items as filling in for different purposes and names across the ages and different cultures, case in point: The Lance of Longinus being the same as the Spear of Odin. One stands out to me is Puck's Flute. There aren't many legendary flutes within world mythlogy, there is the pipes of Pan and of course the instrument of the Pied-Eyed Piper but that's about it. So I wonder, if Puck has played many a different role over the years, could his flute have done the same? Perhaps it was Gjallarhorn at one point when owned by Heimdall? Or perhaps the trumpet of Pheme when she wanted to sound her gossip?

Then, if it is indeed the Spear of Destiny, Puck's Flute and Cleopatra's Necklace that will fill the role as the new Keys and one or more end up being a fake out, it reminds me of the zemi from Spirits of Ash and Foam. The zemi used there was a flute-like object that attached to a spear. We've got the flute and the spear, all that remains is to see how the necklace works. Could be we could see another of Greg's ideas repurposed for this story.

And finally I'd like to bring up points CarumboZabumbo and Jurgan brought up. About how each high-ranking member of the Illuminati starts at the bottom and works their way up and there's only as many Illuminati members shown as the story needs. I like to imagine that when Wyvern officially "joined" the organization the Illuminati wasn't as large in or widespread in those days so the bottom wasn't so far from the top back when they still posed as a troupe of performers. Or as an alternative, his seniority is what helped him get so high rank. While other members come and go thanks to the passage of time (plus ranks may change depending on how important a role the member might be doing such as Quincy Hemings), Wyvern remains mostly the same. I like to imagine that Wyvern could've rose through the ranks simply by fulfilling his role, guarding and acting as treasurer, across the centuries and he got his rank once an opening came up. [/SPOILER]

Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

I think we'll see as many Illuminati as the story needs. The top ranks are inherently interesting, but I don't think we need to know the name of every rank 22 member. Though I can see how it could the "character X is actually in the Illuminati" twist could get played out if it's used too much.

So we know that [SPOILER] humans, dragons, and gargoyles are all represented in the Illuminati, the former two pretty high up. Are there any Children of Oberon? I'm pretty confident there are. Maybe one of the supposed human leaders is partially or fully Third Race. [/SPOILER]

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

I have two observations to make, one not-so-serious and the other a bit more serious:

[SPOILER] Not-so-serious: by checking on GargWiki, I've seen that Greg once confirmed (https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=24541) that new Illuminati members "always start at the bottom, and then work [their] way up" - so, like I said, Wyvern must have started as a Rank 36 like everybody else. This, though, causes an inevitable follow-up question: what exactly were Wyvern's duties back when he was a low-level member? It's a bit difficult to imagine what he might have done to "work his way up" all the way to a Rank 3 - after all, there's a limit to how many top secrets jobs you can give to a giant dragon.

More serious: how many members of the Illuminati do you expect we'll see going forward? Because on the one hand the organization is supposedly pretty big, with a maximum number of 666 members (although "not all slots are always filled" - https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=9842) - but on the other hand, even if Dynamite stops dynamiting all over the place and the relase schedule goes back to normal, Greg still only has about 20 pages a month to tell a story, not exactly a lot for an organization with supposedly hundreds of members.

I don't know, I find it kinda funny that it'll be a wonder if we ever get to 50 named Illuminati (in the present day) when the society is actually over ten times bigger than that. [/SPOILER]

CarumboZabumbo
Noi siamo le creature della notte! Noi siamo... i Gargoyles!

MORRAND> [SPOILER] "Back to Manhattan. I do not, myself, quite believe Owen here. Maybe Puck cannot speak, but Owen sure as snot could pick up a phone book. This may not be a misdirect, but I have reason to suspect that Owen/Puck is not quite playing on the level."

Also... unlisted telephone numbers are a thing. I tend to think Demona would prefer Dominique's name, number, and address be unlisted. [/SPOILER]

Greg Bishansky

Thanks Morrand, though to be honest I knew the last section with the American (or English speaking) perspective would probably be the shortest and most concise. The sped up pace and inward spiral was entirely accidental or not something I was thinking about.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

"All things are true... but few are accurate."

Well, yes, that's why I used the word "inaccuracy."

Morrand:

[SPOILER] Back to Manhattan. I do not, myself, quite believe Owen here. Maybe Puck cannot speak, but Owen sure as snot could pick up a phone book. This may not be a misdirect, but I have reason to suspect that Owen/Puck is not quite playing on the level.

I don't understand this comment. What would Owen do with a phonebook? He wouldn't know what to look for without drawing on Puck's knowledge.
[/SPOILER]

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Earlier this week, I was watching a nature documentary on PBS about apes and monkeys. One of the first scenes was about a silverback gorilla, the leader of his group; a baby gorilla was constantly climbing over him, using him as a sort of living jungle gym, trampoline, etc. (the narrator even used precisely those terms), which he took with a sort of stoic resignation. I found myself imagining the hatchling that'll hatch from Egwardo doing the same thing to Goliath.
Todd Jensen

Todd Jensen > [SPOILER] I suppose he might not have had to go back to Avalon personally. Would opening a gate of some kind to Avalon breach the exile if he doesn't go in himself?

Chief weakness is, knowing the dates now, that we don't see or hear anything about the kids later on from anyone who was on Avalon at the time. (Sending 130 young kids to mingle with what would be, by my math, a group of roughly 12-year-old gargoyle youths makes a fairly adorable picture, but also is something I'd have expected to come up in conversations later.) Oh well.

Efforts to salvage a careless theory aside, I'm indebted for the details of the legend, which I hadn't known. [/SPOILER]

morrand - [morrand276 at gmail dot com]

MORRAND - [SPOILER] The Pied Piper event took place during the period that Oberon's Children were exiled from Avalon (995-1996), which would rule out the children of Hamelin being taken there. (The earliest account of the legend provides a specific date for it: June 26, 1284 - something you don't often get in legends. It even gave the precise number of abducted children: 130.) [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen

Something that I thought of last night: [SPOILER] I'd pointed out yesterday that having the art of Wyvern's head basically repeated three times added a bit of stasis to the scene, but on pondering it, I noticed (as did Craig last week, now that I read back) that we can't see Wyvern's limbs, just a pile of treasure. Perhaps that stasis just simply means that Wyvern can't move: that he's kind of buried up to his shoulders in loot. Fedora Matt's comment above about Wyvern potentially being stuck there for other reasons may tie in, I guess. I don't exactly expect Wyvern could not get out of a pile of gold and other stuff (making a big mess in the process, perhaps) but, I don't know. Could be he's pretty well chained down under there.

However, the other thing that occurred to me is: you have a dragon as a treasurer, one whom, it's established, gets downright mean when a human touches his treasure. The purpose of a treasury is conventionally not just to make a huge pile of valuables, but to use them to pay bills as they come. So how do you do that here? All the senior Illuminati are (or seem to be) human, and I don't think Wyvern's going to shift his attitude just because someone comes in with a draft signed by Peredur. Does this further indicate that Wyvern may not have a full degree of freedom to hold on to the hoard, or does it indicate something about the nature of the Illuminati's, uh, Accounts Payable department? [/SPOILER]


Todd Jensen: Don't forget that it's tradition for [SPOILER] fairy folk to take away human children. I suppose it is not out of the question that Puck was engaged in a sort of recruitment drive, helping bring workers to Avalon or some such thing. [/SPOILER] It will be interesting to see if we get to hear more about that during this arc, or if that will end up being a story for another time.

morrand - [morrand276 at gmail dot com]

One other thought that struck me; [SPOILER] the flute first appeared in a story where Puck was trying to *prevent* someone from taking a child - just one in this case - away. Talk about reversal. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen

All things are true... but few are accurate.
Greg Bishansky

JURGAN - [SPOILER] [He was also the Pied Piper, but I hope the "child murder" is an inaccuracy.]

Many versions of the legend indicate that the Pied Piper simply led the children to a different part of Europe (sometimes Germany, sometimes Transylvania), rather than bringing about their deaths; I've seen theories that the legend was based on a plan to solve an "underpopulation" problem in that part of Europe by attracting young people from Hamelin (though I doubt this was what Puck was up to in the Gargoyles Universe; the theory generally applies to "rationalized" versions, where the Pied Piper is a normal human, if dressed up in a fancy outfit and posing as a marvel-worker). [/SPOILER]

Todd Jensen

Jurgan - [SPOILER] "I think we've only got one more unknown in the top three ranks?"
Yup: the last Rank 3.

"During the exposition, Goliath mentions humanity "might be doomed" and there's a close-up on Angela's sad face. Good detail."
Agreed, although I can't help thinking that Goliath could just turn towards one of the several time travellers in the room and ask "So, is humanity doomed?", a question to which they could answer with 100% certainty "Not for the next two centuries, no."

"Quick question, where is Demona living? Is it a new house, or the same one from The Mirror? I thought they knew where that was, but not sure."
It's the same townhouse from The Mirror, and no, the Clan has never learnt about its existence - yet.

"And it must not be under the name "Destine.""
Which makes sense - Greg said (https://s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=4177) that she has owned that house for decades, so she must have bought it through some older alias.

"So the keys were the lance shaft, the lance head, and Cleopatra's necklace?"
Cleopatra's Necklace, Puck's Flute and the Lance, once it has been repaired. [/SPOILER]

CarumboZabumbo
Noi siamo le creature della notte! Noi siamo... i Gargoyles!

[SPOILER] Well lot to unpack but at least we now know what Falstaff number is, wonder when we will get Fiona Canmore's? Speaking of number reveals very interesting that "Wyvern is number three and is a guardian of their treasures. And giving that Fleur's number is three it makes me think at that level it kinda of doesn't matter perhaps they keep a few of the higher levels in rotation so over the years so they can have guys like Quincy be able to affect current events better. That being said I have an idea on who the other three number is, if Fleur is in the inner circle and they have a Dragon on deck that makes me think the other one might be an expert on magic both mortal and of the third race and wouldn't you know there is one Arthurian candidate who fits the bill. Nimue the student of Merlin and who if I recall might be feeling guilty about how Camelot went and might want to set things right with Peredeur. Or it could be Morgana but I have the feeling she is on Avalon right now, maybe in the next mini series we will get more Illumanti lore? [/SPOILER]
Kevin - [kevin dot nuckols at yahoo dot com]
Kevin

I'm out of town and couldn't wait to get home to pick up my subscription, so I bit the bullet and downloaded Quest 3 digitally. Reacting without reading anyone else's thoughts:

[SPOILER]
So the "motherfucking dragon" is a high-ranking Illuminatus. This is one of those revelations that feels shocking yet obvious- of course such an ancient being with powers and wealth would be involved. And he's #3, even- I think we've only got one more unknown in the top three ranks?

This is very much a "middle chapter," a lot of filling in details and preparing for the next. There's a saying that "every comic is somebody's first," but I can't imagine what a new reader could get out of this. Maybe it's best to treat Quest as a single unit.

I like the illustration of how Puck/Owen's limits work. Even if he wants to break the rules, he's physically unable to do so. Makes me think of the laws of Robotics, it might be fun to write a fanfic of a Third Racer trying to navigate those rules and find loopholes. Anyway, Puck's flute is canon, he picked it right out of Oberon's pocket, and it has indeterminate but probably hypnotic powers. He was also the Pied Piper, but I hope the "child murder" is an inaccuracy.

During the exposition, Goliath mentions humanity "might be doomed" and there's a close-up on Angela's sad face. Good detail.

Coldstone is conniving with Demona still. I kind of hate him, Coldfire needs to slap some sense into him. The intercutting dialogue threw me for a minute, wasn't clear at first that they were in two different places. Quick question, where is Demona living? Is it a new house, or the same one from The Mirror? I thought they knew where that was, but not sure. And it must not be under the name "Destine."

Falstaff and Shari are old friends, though she's playing him, too. Hope she doesn't end up getting choked. The dragon recognizes Shari, likely from Dark Ages, but he doesn't care. Greg timed this well, show the dragon in Dark Ages and then learn more about him shortly after. And now we know, as people guessed, that the hand wasn't the prize they were after, just a tribute to get into the vault. Shari is apparently able to charm people with storytelling, enough to let Thailog steal something else.

Elisa is back on the job. The consequences for her lying to Maria weren't that severe, but maybe there is more yet to come. There's a montage with timestamps; presumably this is a patch job to make up for the Halloween comic being printed out of order. So the keys were the lance shaft, the lance head, and Cleopatra's necklace? Not sure what she can do with them, and moreover, what would any of them do by themselves? This story is moving pretty quickly- there were over thirty episodes between seeing the first of the original keys of power to seeing them united, but Demona is speedrunning the new batch.

Overall, an issue that doesn't do much on its own, but it gives some answers to old questions.
[/SPOILER]

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

One more thought about Gargoyle Quest #3, if a small one. [SPOILER] I wonder if Lexington's line about finding out who's behind the attacking battle machines was intended as a nod to "Scooby-Doo". (It wouldn't be the first time Greg Weisman's included such a hommage in one of his works, in light of the Newsgirl Legion.) Of course, since they're unable to find out and confront the operator, there's no "And I'd have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for you meddling gargoyles". [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen

Fedora Matthew> Nicely done. I notice the lines progressively getting shorter through all the verses and speeding up the pace throughout, giving it a sense of spiraling inward. (Also noticed the accented "é" in the second verse just now; nice touch.)

Regarding the bot, the text felt like it came from somewhere nearby; I think maybe I came across it in an archive dive a while back. (Still, I reiterate my whaaaa? Not at the content, but at how that's supposed to optimize someone's search engine results at all. The bots may be getting more intelligent but not, I suspect, more useful.)

Anyway, rattling along here with "Quest" #3.

[SPOILER] Pow! Right into the battle, and I had to squint a bit to remember that it's Jade taking a central position right on the first page. I do find it interesting, but consistent, that Goliath is only ready to unleash on the enemy once he's realized it is mechanical instead of alive. Slightly less predictable that Coldstone would go right along with this, but I guess he knows who is in charge, too. Of course, then he does a thing that accidentally (?) obscures who's controlling the enemy drones.

I always like a wide shot with all the gargoyles in the air. And Jade looks so happy! It's actually a little terrifying.

We get Owen showing up and reviewing what his deal is briefly (thank you, Owen/Puck) and confirming that his flute is one of the things Demona was after. He does not, however, quite explain what its powers were to begin with. (I assume, given the reveal that he was the Pied Piper, that he would use it to settle down young Alexander during his fussy spells. Could be very, very useful in that role, maybe.) And so we also get the explanation that the keys of power are being reborn in three other objects.

Onward to more Illuminati antics. It's a Zoom call! On CRT screens! (And, very interestingly, none of the chief Illuminati will look right into the camera.) I am sorry to say the name Peredur Fab Ragnall means nothing to me right at the moment (but I look forward to figuring that out eventually, possibly once the Kickstarter delivers my copy of "Bad Guys"?).

Back to Manhattan. I do not, myself, quite believe Owen here. Maybe Puck cannot speak, but Owen sure as snot could pick up a phone book. This may not be a misdirect, but I have reason to suspect that Owen/Puck is not quite playing on the level.

Demona looks quite grand after being told that Angela wants her to come to the commitment ceremony; it's a very nice portrait of her. Being Demona, she has other priorities that, I suspect, would not bode well for Angela.

Over to Eastcheap, and, you know, only in this universe would there be a concern that they'd gotten the wrong secret lair. Anyway, we meet the Illuminati's assistant treasurer, and, whaddya know, it's Falstaff, a name I kind of do recognize. (Between this and Prospero, I'm totally expecting William Shakespeare to have been the Illuminati's recording secretary at one time, if that wasn't already established somewhere.) "Hand the hand over," especially as formatted on the page, is just a funny line.

And who turns out to be the treasurer, but our old bud Wyvern. Whose left eye seems to have healed (possibly tooth too) since "Dark Ages", which is nice, I guess. I am digging the lens flare effects in the spread revealing him. I rather like the quick change of possession of the Hand of Valmont--it suddenly being in Shari's hands right after "you smell wrong," and you can kind of animate the scene in your own mind.

And suddenly we get Shari's power clearly illustrated, if it were not clear before. A spellbinding storyteller, indeed. No wonder the Illuminati heads won't look at the screen; I guess they know who they're talking to. The reference to the "gargoyle of the sword" is an interesting way to refer to Brooklyn, and I do wonder what is behind that (besides it just sounding cooler, I mean, and more legendary). I'm also curious about what potency the hand holds. It seems, to my chronically misinformed mind, that holding the Grimoirum would tend to transfer some of its powers (i.e., its status as a Key to Power or the seeds thereof) into the hand, but apparently not. Still, I hope for Demona's sake that she hasn't traded it away by mistake.

Aha, so we get the explanation here for why Wyvern's sense of hoard worked the way it did back in "Dark Ages." I think it was surmised here that he had a sense not just that the hoard was being disturbed, but specifically that humans were disturbing it, and so it is.

And so we waited. Impressive to see the stretch of time pass. Other than seeing Elisa's suspension wrap up, evidently not much to report for nearly four months. I'm trying to work out if there is any significance to the dates shown (other than October 31, which is a neat passing reference) but I guess, for now, it is just periodic dates to show time going by fairly peacefully. (I did check phases of the moon: October 16 was, November 11 was waxing gibbous, November 17 was waning gibbous, so, no.)

And so we go to Geneva, and, without a whimper, almost as though it did not matter, it's the third Key to Power. Well, heck. Next issue's going to get tough, I guess.

General comments: It's an interesting sequencing to have the combat right up front and then the intrigue following, and have the pacing slow down as the issue goes along. I mean, literally slowing down to cover four months in the last couple of pages. In one sense it is building away from a climax, but on the other hand, c'mon, Demona's got the Keys to Power (apparently), and that is a pretty serious climax.

Notice the issue hit the shelves almost, but not quite, on the anniversary of events on the first page. It would be a cruel but understandable trick to have issue #4 come out about Thanksgiving, and keep pace with story time. I might have to say something snotty on TwiX if that actually happens.

I do notice a couple of repeated panels through the issue: Goliath glowering with Coldstone in the background. And we get the same picture of Wyvern's head twice, too (almost the same, anyway: there are a couple of sparkles in the second appearance, and his wing has moved, but the speckle reflection on his jaw looks identical). It'd be easy for me to say this shows the artwork is not coming in on schedule. It'd also probably be wrong, or at least I don't think it proves anything, but it does lend a bit of stasis to a couple of the scenes that doesn't feel like it should be there. Still, it is not like the artwork we do have is sloppy or rushed; it's quite good.

Curious that the teaser for the next issue indicates that power is "nearly within" Demona's grasp. I'd have thought she was there already, but for fastening the head to the shaft of the lance.
[/SPOILER]


Someone remind me next time that I need to chisel the extra 30¢ out of my pocket so my comic shop will give me bags and boards with these things. They used to, and now they don't, and I'm kind of having to double them up so they don't get destroyed on my bookshelf.

morrand - [morrand276 at gmail dot com]

[SPOILER] I reread the treasury scene in "Bad Guys" and noticed that we saw only a little of the treasury room, and the part just at the edge of the entrance (seen from the perspective of inside the treasury, facing Dingo and Falstaff). So I think it makes good sense that we don't see Wyvern in it; he might have been "out of shot" (or even sleeping beneath the surface of the treasure).

(Wyvern as the guardian of the Illuminati's treasure reminded me of a scene in Thomas Berger's "Arthur Rex" - an Arthurian retelling which Greg Weisman's mentioned reading, by the way. King Arthur is showing a guest the royal treasury of his castle, which is being looked after by a cranky dwarf; Arthur explains that a dwarf is the traditional guardian of a king's treasure. Later on in the chapter, some knights in the service of Arthur's enemies break into the treasury to rob it; one of them grabs hold of the dwarf to stop him from interfering. The dwarf simply swells up into a dragon, which then reduces the villainous knights to ashes. The dragon changes back into a dwarf, who gets out a broom and dustpan to sweep up the ashes, after which the narrator states that the knights had forgotten that a dragon is the traditional guardian of a king's treasure.)

ED - On your comment about "having Falstaff, Prospero, Puck and Othello in the same story"; we also have a hint (from "Dark Ages: Alliance") that Shahrizad (also present) was the Dark Lady of the Sonnets, and Cleopatra featured in Shakespeare as well (though, since she's famous independent of his work, we don't know if her being the past owner of that necklace was intended as another nod to Shakespeare). [/SPOILER]

Todd Jensen

Todd - [SPOILER] "Wyvern's relocated to Eastcheap, serving as the guardian to the Illuminati's treasure - and is now a "Three". (Presumably he moved there after the battle with the Redemption Squad, since we saw no sign of him in "Bad Guys".)"

I agree that, back when Bad Guys was written, Weisman's intent was probably that Falstaff & co. were the guardians of the treasure - the idea of Wyvern being there feels like a fairly recent retcon - but I also think that Weisman's intent RIGHT NOW is that Wyvern has been there for a very long time.

And hey, it's not even that difficult to justify Wyvern's absence in Bad Guys: I went to take a look at Losers, and in that issue, while Falstaff does show Dingo the treasure, they never take a step beyond the door - and in this issue we see that Wyvern is not immediately visible from the door, so there's no real contradiction.

(Plus, I refuse to believe that Wyvern joined the Illuminati only a few months ago and they immediately gave him a Rank 3 - if Xanatos had to start at 36, pretty much everyone has to start at 36, as far as I'm concerned.)

"And we now know what the Third Key to Power is - and it's connected to Cleopatra, who thereby makes an entrance, if a posthumous one, in "Gargoyles"."

A potentially interesting thing to note about Cleopatra's Necklace is that it's the only Key to Power (either old or new) to have had zero build-up; that is - back in the day, the old Keys had all played an important role in at least one episode before the Weird Sisters stole them and gave them to the Archmage; with the new Keys, Gugnir debuted in Dark Ages before appearing in Quest, while Puck's Flute appeared in both Dark Ages and the tv show.

Cleopatra's Necklace, on the other hand, is just declared a Key to Power on the spot with no build-up; I have a feeling Greg may give it some actual backstory in the next issue to even things out a bit (obvious thought: Brooklyn met Cleopatra during TimeDancer and has dealt with the Necklace before). [/SPOILER]

CarumboZabumbo
Noi siamo le creature della notte! Noi siamo... i Gargoyles!

[SPOILER] After learning that the Wyvern is still around and is not only the Illuminati's treasurer but one of the Threes no less, I wondered about that too. My guess is that Wyvern's service with the Illuminati may not be the most favorable of circumstances and his situation may be the best way of staying alive. While I don't doubt that in the years since his appearance he might be a bit more amiable towards humans, at least enough to work under Peredur, my theory is that this situation is the only chance of survival he has left.

As for why Wyvern wasn't involved when the Redemption Squad came knocking, might've been asleep during that. Might've not cared at all unless something threatened his hoard. [/SPOILER]

Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

TODD> [SPOILER] It's also possible Wyvern was already on Eastcheap during the Redemption Squad's raid on the island but Dingo just thought he was a big statue. [/SPOILER]
Algae
You are loved.

Todd > [SPOILER]
Sorry for spoiling you on Wyvern. I realized after the fact that I should have been more conservative with where I placed the spoiler tags.
[/SPOILER]

Anonymous

MATTHEW - Thanks. And I take it that they all mean "I'm so far from my home".

Thoughts on "Gargoyle Quest" #3.

[SPOILER] We got a big surprise here - Wyvern's relocated to Eastcheap, serving as the guardian to the Illuminati's treasure - and is now a "Three". (Presumably he moved there after the battle with the Redemption Squad, since we saw no sign of him in "Bad Guys".) I got slightly spoiled on that one, in the sense that while I took care not to read last week's spoiler-comments, I did note from the "plain writing" around them that they had something to do with the solicitation about Wyvern. (And it was indeed different from what the solicitation suggested - not only is Wyvern now residing at Eastcheap, but Thailog doesn't fight him; he simply takes advantage of the fact that Wyvern only notices when humans try to take things from his hoard, not when gargoyles do it. Very ingenious.)

We indeed get the time-skip that we'd suspected (I was amused to notice that one of the events was dated to July 31, the publication date - plus a glimpse of the Halloween adventure). And we now know what the Third Key to Power is - and it's connected to Cleopatra, who thereby makes an entrance, if a posthumous one, in "Gargoyles". Looking forward to seeing what transpires in issues 4 and five; it'll be a few months' wait, but it should be worth it. [/SPOILER]

Todd Jensen

Thanks Todd. The first language is Farsi, a coworker of mine helped with that. For the third is Arabic of which I had to rely on the internet for a translation.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

MATTHEW - Thanks for your latest poem, another effective one.

I recognized the line at the end of the second stanza as Spanish, but what language are the lines at the ends of the first and third paragraphs?

Todd Jensen

I'll post my thoughts on the latest issue later. Right now I need to...decompress.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Last day of the month, and once more I return to my thoroughly depressing poem, "A Year on the Streets." I should preface this that I tried for linguistic accuracy where I could and did receive help in some regards. But for any inaccuracies, I apologize.

July

I left my land of the Eastern Sun when retaliation became our cycle,
Citizen and government demanding martyrs create or become one.
I ask for peace, is that too much? But terrorist has become my title.
So endure the looks, the poverty, the suspicions, or your life is done.
Man az khooné dooram.

I escaped my world of crime and cartels where justice has abandoned me,
Now out of the sweltering cage and months under armed, watchful eyes.
I have to find my hope of América, this land of opportunity.
So pray to escape the stops, the slurs, the accusatory lies.
Estoy lejos de mi casa.

I fled my home when the ghosts were too much,
I was choked by rubble, death, and screams.
But this is right; this isn’t my land, I’m told as such,
Maybe I’ll find a place to belong in my dreams.
Ana baeid ean almanzil.

I lost my place, I don’t remember when,
It doesn’t matter where I am now.
Because I can still treasure memories when I wasn’t a has-been.
It’s not like I can return anyhow.
And I’m so far from my home.

Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

MATT - Yep, that's the one.
Todd Jensen

Todd> Fantasy Shop, right? I get the same email for the same reason and saw the same thing!
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"

Todd > I guess it's nice that Disney is starting to put out any kind of comics with their classic characters again. It's been about six years since the most recent issue of 'Walt Disney's Comics & Stories' was published, I believe, which I think is the longest gap in the series' long history.

Prior to this synergy-fueled Wolverine mashup, Marvel put out a new Uncle Scrooge one-shot last month, which had variant covers by artists as prominent as Alex Ross (gorgeous) and Frank Miller (terrifying).

Craig

MATTHEW - [SPOILER] Yes, if we see Darkseid and Apokolips in Season Three, it'll be worth seeing how they're depicted. [/SPOILER]

I regularly receive an e-mail from a comics shop in St. Louis where I bought the Slave Labor Graphics "Gargoyles" comics, announcing new comics each week. The one I received for this week not only included "Gargoyle Quest" #3 on its list (the one we're all anticipating), but also a bizarre-looking Disney comic crossing over with Marvel Comics and giving Donald Duck the abilities of Wolverine from "X-Men". The e-mail even had a picture of the front cover of the comic, showing Donald dressed up like Wolverine, claws and all - and he's speared some marshmallows on those claws. I suppose this is one of the inevitable results of Disney acquiring Marvel.

Todd Jensen

FEDORA MATT> [SPOILER] Well we know from Kirby's original comics that Darkseid's not above making peace deals when he needs to to regroup his forces.

I really did enjoy the MWAS finale though. Prob one of the best adaptations I've seen of Kara so far. And MAWS!Brainiac clearly takes a lot from his DCAU incarnation, right down to the "I am Krypton" speach. [/SPOILER]

Algae
You are loved.

Continuing where you left out last week, Todd.

[SPOILER] One thing that was brought up by Brainiac on why he destroyed Krypton was his comment on Jor-El holding secret negotiations with whatever force was defeating the Krypton Empire. This intrigues me for a number of reasons: one was that if it was indeed a war against Apokolips the fact that Jor-El was able to get someone from the planet to the table implies that the world of Darkseid might be a bit more nuanced than previous adaptations. Another case might be that Jor-El kept them secret because he knew Brainiac would never let the war end even if it was one that they couldn't win, which is in-part what happened here.

There's still a lot of mystery revolving around the end of the Kryptonian Empire and I hope we get to see more of that in the future. [/SPOILER]

Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

I'd noticed that it was a plagiarism of one of my posts as well. (I remember seeing "Night of the Gargoyles" in the "used book corner" at the local library, where they sell books they're redrawing from their collection for various reasons. I looked through it, but didn't buy it; I now kind of wish I had. As I mentioned a while ago, I *did* buy another book on gargoyles, which included a few paragraphs on the animated series as well as a general history of architectural gargoyles.)

Let's just give thanks that the bots aren't trying to destroy the world [SPOILER] and I indeed had the posts on Brainiac at the end of last week when I wrote that [/SPOILER].

Todd Jensen

Last post was me. D'oh.
Craig

Didn't the bots previously plagiarize another post of Todd's? Strange that they seem to keep imitating him in particular. (Although I guess perhaps it indicates that they at least have good taste.)

Er, fourth.

Anonymous

Still a very long way from original. A quick internet search reveals that the post is a less-well-written rephrase of posts from Todd - one on 25 Aug 2016 or, the more likely derivation, a section from a post of his on 9 Oct 2019.

If it did so openly, a bot just giving us classic Todd wisdom would be quite good fun, like catching a really good rerun.

Still very sinister.

Ed

Second.

These bots have really stepped up their game from a decade ago. Pretty soon they may start to form original thoughts. We may end up being interested in what they have to say. Scary.

Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"

Can I still call "first"? Is the consensus that bot posts don't count? Also, whaaaa?

Also, also, and to remain somewhat on topic, I'm waiting eagerly for my comic shop's new releases list to come out so I can see if I will, finally, get my hands on the next "Quest."

morrand - [morrand276 at gmail dot com]

NIGHT OF THE GARGOYLES by Eve Bunting is a children's picture book with a humorous tone. The story revolves around gargoyles that come to life at night and engage in lively activities. The only person who knows about this is a night watchman, who attempts to inform his boss but is not believed. It is possible that the night watchman is a version of Vinnie from an alternate universe.
geometry dash - [warlocketdingoal at gmail dot com]