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The Phoenix Gate

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Comments for the week ending August 25, 2024

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"The obvious thing to note here is just how more numerous the higher rankings are compared to the lower ones: the "9 out of 10" category in particular - which I'd generally describe as "stories that really change and advance the narrative of the series without changing the series itself on a fundamental level" - features 22 stories, more than all categories from 1 to 7 combined."

I had a similar problem with my tier list, more A's and S's than one might expect. Forcing it onto a bell curve was a challenge. If you did, I think Awakening 1 and Avalon 1 would be the only 10's.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

MATTHEW - Given that Carumbo's focus in ranking the episodes was based on "how does this episode affect later episodes?", I doubt that voice acting skill would have any influence there . But, yes, Tony Shalhoub gave a fine performance as the Emir (and when "Voices From the Eyrie" gets to that episode, I'll be amazed if Greg Weisman doesn't mention it).
Todd Jensen

Heritage is still a nice little view.

And I say Raven's poor rhyming is a favorite bit of mine. Watching The Real Ghostbusters episode Cry Uncle after this (Missed the episode as a kid), it bothered me that the group don't show Egon's Uncle Cyrus proof via Slimer.

So yeah here definitely smart to open up Natsilane's mind to the world not being so plain by introducing him to Goliath, Angela and Bronx.

Also Goliath recognizing Raven's "Clan" as gargoyles shows even before M.I.A. that many of their race vary in appearances beyond that of Goliath and his.

Antiyonder

Carumbo> Personally I'd give "Grief" at least an extra point for Tony Shalhoub's acting but other than that I've pretty much given all my thoughts on the matter in previous posts.

I've never really considered ranking episodes or other of Greg's works but I'm seriously considering doing something similar for something like Spectacular Spider-Man.

Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Todd - You're welcome.

Before getting into the wrap-up of my Historical Significance Ratings series, here's a rundown of every vote I've given:

10 out of 10
Awakening
Enter Macbeth
Reawakening
The Mirror
Avalon
Hunter’s Moon
The Gate/Tyrants/Phoenix

9 out of 10
The Thrill of the Hunt
Deadly Force
The Edge
Her Brother’s Keeper
Leader of the Pack
Metamorphosis
Legion
Eye of the Beholder
Vows
City of Stone
Outfoxed
Double Jeopardy
Upgrade
The Cage
Kingdom
Sanctuary
Pendragon
The Gathering
The Reckoning
Possession
Nightwatch/The Journey
The Rock/Rock & Roll/Rock of Ages

8 out of 10
Temptation
Long Way To Morning
High Noon
Revelations
Monsters
Golem
Walkabout
Mark of the Panther
Eye of the Storm
Ill Met By Moonlight
Future Tense
Turf
Invitation Only/Masque/Bash
Strangers/The Lost/Estranged/Louse/Strangled/Losers

7 out of 10
Shadows of the Past
M.I.A.
Bushido

6 out of 10
The Silver Falcon
The Green
Cloud Fathers
Vendettas

5 out of 10
A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time
The Price
Reunion

4 out of 10
Protection

3 out of 10
Grief
The Hound of Ulster

2 out of 10
Heritage
Sentinel

1 out of 10
The New Olympians

The obvious thing to note here is just how more numerous the higher rankings are compared to the lower ones: the "9 out of 10" category in particular - which I'd generally describe as "stories that really change and advance the narrative of the series without changing the series itself on a fundamental level" - features 22 stories, more than all categories from 1 to 7 combined.

This fits pretty well with what Greg Weisman once described as his intentions regarding the series:"At every turn, Michael and I just tried to make things play in a slow, steady logical progression. I wasn't trying to change the world in every episode. Not because I'm against world changing, but because each new situation was fascinating to explore. But we wouldn't let the world stand still either." He wrote this, fittingly enough, in his ramble for the first 9-ranked episode, The Thrill of the Hunt.

The "10 out of 10" category - which I'd characterize as "stories that change and impact the series on a fundamental level" - is noteworthy as well: it features 6 stories (actually 7, counting Awakening, but for obvious reasons that one is in a category of its own) out of a total of 59 reviewed stories - so an average of 1 "world-changing" story about every 10; I'd say that's a pretty good average/rhythm (one which the Dynamite comics kept up with the Trial storyline and, hopefully, whatever happens at the end of Quest).

It's also interesting to note that several of the low-ranked stories won't stay low-ranked forever if Weisman's plans are realized: the New Olympians, Cu Chullain and Banshee are supposed to get their own spin-offs in the future, there's at least one more story for Raven in the pipeline, Nokkar and Queen Florence Island will become a lot more important when/if Gargoyles 2198 gets approved... A couple of years from now, the lowest ranks may very well disappear (mostly - I have a feeling Grief will stay where it is on the Historical Significance meter).

And that's more or less all I wanted to say; thoughts?

CarumboZabumbo
Noi siamo le creature della notte! Noi siamo... i Gargoyles!

CARUMBO - Thanks for sharing that with us.
Todd Jensen

morrand - You may have explained the idea behind the ratings better than I did; thanks for your support.

NIGHTWATCH/THE JOURNEY - 9: The SLG comics start with some needed adjustments after the status quo shake-up of Hunter's Moon: the humans start reacting to the existence of Gargoyles in various ways (the Nightwatch program, the Gargoyle Taskforce and the Quarrymen); at the Castle, Lex agrees to a truce with Fox for the sake of Alex, while Broadway and Angela officially become a couple (which forces Brooklyn to acknowledge Angela as the second of his Not Great Loves); elsewhere, Jon Canmore makes his debut as John Castaway (although the fact that they're one and the same isn't 100% confirmed yet). On the minor characters front: Margot is revealed to be Assistant District Attorney, Banquo and Fleance have left Macbeth to join the Quarrymen and Vinnie patches things up with Goliath before departing for Japan. Finally, Duval is mentioned for the first time.

INVITATION ONLY/MASQUE/BASH - 8: Lots of stuff to cover: Goliath and Elisa briefly break up, but at the end of the story they say they love each other (out loud) for the first time; the Illuminati return after a long absence, their ranking system is revealed and we learn that they're trying to manipulate the Gargoyle issue from all possible angles; we are also introduced to Shari and Quincy Hemings, and learn that Thailog has joined them. Thailog steals DNA samples from the entire Clan, while Demona recovers the crystal within the Praying Gargoyle; Brentwood leaves the Labyrinth Clan to rejoin Thailog, and the Delilah/Malibu romance is clearly implied (giving Brooklyn the third of his Not Great Loves); it's officially confirmed that Alex is growing faster than normal. There are things to say about the minor characters as well: Lou and Chaz are revealed to have joined the Quarrymen, Doctor Sato joins the ranks of the Clan's allies, Hudson reveals the truth to Jeffrey Robbins, Mary and Finella make a currently unexplained appearance at the Castle and we are introduced to the Chung family and Detective Cedric Harris. As I said, lots of stuff.

REUNION - 5: Thailog and Shari's bizarre working relationship (she works for him even though she outranks him) is established, and we hear her tell a story for the first time; the Tibet flashback solves the old "how come Angela and Coldstone didn't have much of a reaction to each other when they met in Possession?" plothole, and it also serves to reveal that Gabriel is the biological son of Coldstone and Coldfire; Coldsteel's appearance in the finale nicely sets up the Stone of Destiny arc.

THE ROCK/ROCK & ROLL/ROCK OF AGES - 9: The Spirit of Destiny is established as possibly the most powerful, most important entity in the entire Gargoyles Universe; we are introduced to Peredur, Duval and Blanchefleur - not to mention Castle Carbonek and the Grail - and learn that the Illuminati's plans are somehow connected to Arthur and his awakening; the London Clan returns and we meet a few more of them (first meeting of Lexington and Staghart); we also get a lot of information about the London Clan in general (their exact number, the lack of Beasts, the two-eggs policy...); we get our first look at Merlin (and about another hundred thousand historical and legendary characters); Maggie's pregnancy is revealed, while Goliath and Elisa officially confirm that the break-up is over; last but not least, Coldstone and Coldfire return and agree to rejoin the Clan.

STRANGERS/THE LOST/ESTRANGED/LOUSE/STRANGLED/LOSERS - 8: The Redemption Squad is formed, starting the next chapter in the lives of several supporting characters; we get some more Illuminati stuff through the introduction of Falstaff, his gang, Fiona Canmore and Eastcheap Isle; Sevarius' current status as a freelancer is clarified, and he makes a new batch of Mutates; John Castaway is confirmed to be Jon Canmore; Monsieur Le Maire makes his first appearance (kinda), and it's revealed that an organization exists that knows of the Illuminati and is trying to oppose them.

THE GATE/TYRANTS/PHOENIX - 10: Did you notice that the seasons always end with a 10? The Phoenix Gate is destroyed, meaning that all three of the original Keys to Power are now lost, which will bring about the creation of the new Keys; we learn of the existence of the Phoenix entity; another piece of Scottish history is filled in for us, not to mention a missing piece in the history of the Grimorum; new background information about Clan Moray are revealed; although the details are still unclear, this adventure is obviously part of the reason behind Mary's presence in the modern world; Brooklyn unknowingly creates the Hand of Valmont; we have our first canonical mentions of the Spell of Humility and of the Wind Ceremony; we are introduced to a few minor characters that we'll see again in Dark Ages (Sacrifice, Chomp, Chaw and Kenneth III); and finally, the reason this story gets a 10: with the return of the Colds and the arrival of the TimeDancers, the shape of the Manhattan Clan is changed forever.

And that's it! As I mentioned before, I won't be doing the Dynamite issues (because I don't think enough time has passed to gauge their historical value), but I'll still see you tomorrow for a wrap-up comment.

CarumboZabumbo
Noi siamo le creature della notte! Noi siamo... i Gargoyles!

I do appreciate Carumbo's rundown, and I understand it being framed as looking primarily at foundations for future stories rather than as character development: at continuity, to put it in a word, and I already see where he has pointed out a couple of points where continuity is incomplete. I'll also agree that you can't completely separate character from story, since the story has to be driven by the characters (and vice versa), but I can see how character development wouldn't be especially relevant to his project. So I dig it, and I just hope I can find it again when I get around to making time for a rewatch.

And speaking of not especially relevant...

Matt Fedora > Sorry for the tardy reply. As a current student, I can say bicorno is indeed a defensive guard, but it is an enormously strong one and hard to displace compared to a lot of other guards in the same general stance (e.g., longa, which is holding the sword pointed straight out in front of you). I'm told that just about anything that can be done from another point-forward guard can be done from bicorno, but it has that extra benefit of massive strength, which can keep the line of attack clear for the response.

I'd be thrilled to work this all into the entirely-not-canon explanation for how the guard got its name, of course.

morrand - [morrand276 at gmail dot com]

Moving on with the Historical Significance Ratings...

BUSHIDO - 7: We get one more Gargoyle Clan to add to the list and one more future member of the Redemption Squad to add to the cast; we've seen worse.

CLOUD FATHERS - 6: Peter and Beth get their first interaction with the Gargoyles, and we learn some interesting info about the Maza family's background; plus, Coyote (the other one) is introduced, so the line-up of characters that will have a silent cameo in The Gathering is complete.

ILL MET BY MOONLIGHT - 8: Thirty-seven episodes after their first mention, Oberon and Titania finally make their debut, and we learn the reason behind Avalon's desertion by the Third Race; after several hints throughout the season, the fact that the Children are vulnerable to iron is established with 100% certainty; the Weird Sisters are forced to put aside their plans for revenge (at least for the moment) and Titania gives us a hint about her other identity; finally, Oberon starts the Gathering.

FUTURE TENSE - 8: While most of the events of this episode never happened and will never happen, several of them came true in one way or another; it's established that Puck doesn't want to return to Avalon for the Gathering, which will be important for the next story (and Puck's fate in general); finally, Goliath tries to get rid of the Phoenix Gate, and in so doing he unknowingly triggers the events of TimeDancer.

THE GATHERING - 9: The World Tour is over, meaning that Angela can finally be introduced to the Trio and Hudson; little Alexander is born, and the human identities of Puck and Titania (with concomitant backstories) are revealed; Puck is forever exiled from Avalon and given the task of training Alexander; it's the first appearance of Puck's Flute and of the Iron Clan; finally, the episodes bring us one step closer to the fundamental Gargoyles/Xanatos truce.

VENDETTAS - 6: Vinnie is (properly) introduced, and through the magic of retcon it's "revealed" that he's been there from the start; the spirit of Hakon is removed from the mortal plane, meaning that the Clan now has one less villain to worry about.

TURF - 8: Brod and his gang are now active in New York, and Jack Dane has come out of retirement to join them; we see that Dracon's hold on the Manhattan underworld is not as tight as it once was, which will be important once we get to the Dynamite comics; the relationship between Angela and the Trio starts being properly developed; finally, the episode establishes that Elisa is still in the force despite her months of absence during the World Tour.

There are some negatives as well, though: the episode ends with every member of the Dracon and Brod gangs in prison - but come Here in Manhattan and all of them (except the big bosses) will be out with no explanation; moreover, while the episode establishes that Elisa is still in the force, it does so in such a way that the World Tour is ignored rather than actually addressed.

THE RECKONING - 9: Angela and Demona finally get to have an actual conversation with each other, and Demona makes one tiny step in the right direction; the Thailog/Demona romance/alliance literally ends in flames; we are introduced to the second batch of Gargoyle clones, and they all go join the Labyrinth Clan; we also see the Nightstone Unlimited building for the first time and learn that Sevarius no longer works exclusively for Xanatos.

POSSESSION - 9: Coldstone's split personality problem is finally solved through the introduction of Coldfire and Coldsteel; we learn that Puck's training of Alexander has already begun, our first indication that the kid is growing faster than normal, and see that Xanatos was serious about his gratitude for Goliath; moreover, the Lexington/Alexander connection is forged and we get a hint that Broadway and Angela are going to become a couple.

HUNTER'S MOON - 10: The tv show ends with a (historical) bang: we learn that the Hunters have hunted Demona (and Gargoyles in general) through the centuries, and are introduced to the Canmore siblings; the Clock Tower is blown up and the Clan goes back to the Castle, officially starting the Gargoyles/Xanatos truce; the existence of Gargoyles is now known to the public at large; and finally, Goliath and Elisa acknowledge their feelings for each other and we see their first kiss. One of the most important stories of the entire series.

See you tomorrow for Clan-Building and Bad Guys.

CarumboZabumbo
Noi siamo le creature della notte! Noi siamo... i Gargoyles!

Greg Bishansky> Thanks for the comment.


So any other noted people who wrote letters to Marvel's Gargoyles comic? So far we got Zehra Fazal and Roy Sato (Animator on the show).

Antiyonder

Antiyonder and Matthew the Fedora Guy> I really appreciate your comments on character-focused stories over plot focused stories. Very insightful, guys.

Back in 2023, on the app formerly known as Twitter, a favorite writer of mine, J. Michael Straczynski (creator of Babylon 5), had this to say when asked about the word "filler":

***

Part of what is problematic to so many writers about the term "filler episodes" is that for some viewers, stories only count when they're sprinting breathless through the events of the story arc, if things aren't directly moving ahead or blowing up, which ignores the reality that those events have to have meaning to the characters, have to change them and react to them, and we can't see those changes, or understand those reactions, unless we understand the characters.  This is the crucial difference between incident and story.  

Incident is "the king died, then the queen died." Story is, "the king died, then the queen died of grief."  There's emotional connectivity that has to be built into the story.  Yeah, you can jump into sex and just do all the things without emotion or foreplay or having any idea of who the other person actually is, and for some people that's just fine, but not, I suspect for everyone.  

Pausing all the Big Events to do a character story isn't "filler"...it's a part of setting the stage for the impact of those events.  If someone doesn't care about the the people who these things are happening to, then there's no point to the story. Story events are things that happen to people; if you only focus on the former it's basically porn structure and empty; if only the latter, it's uninteresting naval-gazing.  

You have to service both sides equally. That's why character episodes aren't filler; they're where we see consequence and understand what all this means.  Some folks say that because they're "filler" they must have been easier to write. Nothing would be farther from the truth. Take a movie structure: you know how you want to start the story, and how it ends...big, easy stuff...the hard part is keeping the audience's attention through the second act when there's not as much inherently exciting stuff to work with; usually just a lot of shoe-leather.

There's a term writers of movies and novels use for the second act: "The desert of the middle." It's always the hardest part to write. Ditto TV episodes where you have to write the strong character episodes between the big explosive episodes.  But if you don't have those things then you're not going to care about the big things when they happen, and for some folks, that's fine, they just want to see shit blow up.  But I don't think that applies to most folks who want to relate to the characters in the story and to feel for them, the bad to fail and the good to succeed.  

One last point about "filler episodes" is that the term has, or had, a very specific industry meaning only when it came to daily soap operas.  Soap opera weekly structure is: Monday resolves the Friday cliffhanger and introduces a new story element or controversy. Tuesday nothing new is introduced, it's everyone talking about, repeating, or worrying about what it all means. This is a filler episode.  Wednesday there's usually some small spike, a new bit of information.  Thursday back to talking about, repeating or worrying about what came up Thursday. Filler.  Then Friday comes the cliffhanger/story event, which is resolved Monday, rinse and repeat. (This is more relevant to old-school soaps than some of the newer ones, but even there you can see echoes of that structure.) That's how "filler episodes" were/are generally seen in the industry.

Within some of the public, it's anything that doesn't rocket forward. I remember when "Comes the Inquisitor" was described as just "filler" when it first aired because it didn't move the story along. But would the story have been as meaningful without it?  To dismiss something as "filler" is to hand-wave away the effort that went into it, and ignore the point of character-based episodes: to make the story *matter* to the characters and the audience. Otherwise, why the hell even tell it?

***

Greg Bishansky

Todd, Antiyonder and Fedora Guy - Thank you for the feedback. Moving on with the World Tour.

MONSTERS - 8: Angela learns that Goliath is her biological father, which will have a big impact on their relationship going forward (and sets the stage for her learning that Demona is her mother); on the minor characters' front, all of Xanatos' Commandos - aside from Bruno - die in this episode, and the Loch Ness Monster is confirmed to exist (and will later make a cameo in Rock & Roll).

GOLEM - 8: The World Tour comes to an important turning point: Goliath now understands that fate is guiding their journey, meaning that from now on the World Tourists will always be actively seeking for the reason why Avalon sent them somewhere (and the writers will no longer have to concoct reasons to keep them stuck in a place). Brod is introduced and, through the Golem, given a very good reason to leave Prague and move to New Tork; finally, it's confirmed that Renard has forgiven Vogel for the events of Outfoxed, and the episode clearly implies that he is not long for this world.

SANCTUARY - 9: A big one: we learn that Thailog and Demona have joined forces (in more ways than one); Nightstone Unlimited has been founded, and the "Dominique Destine" and "Alexander Thailog" aliases are used for the first time; Thailog's standard armored design debuts; Macbeth ends the episode with some newfound hope about the future and on pretty good terms with the World Tourists, which paves the way for him actually becoming the Clan's ally later on; it establishes that Goliath is uncomfortable about Angela's interest in her biological parentage; finally, it reveals to Angela the true identity of her mother, and even features their first interaction that they're both going to remember.

M.I.A. - 7: The London Clan - or at least a few of them - are introduced, and through this we learn that there are Gargoyle Clans unrelated to Wyvern that have survived into the present day.

GRIEF - 3: It feels like this episode is actively trying not to get a high rating: the Emir is introduced after having been mentioned twice before (The Edge and Double Jeopardy) - and they immediately kill him off; Jackal does his "Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds" number, even attacks Hyena and Wolf as part of it, which feels like could have some serious consequences for their relationship - but then the matter is never brought up again and the three of them are still 100% allies; an entire temple crumbles around the Pack - but when they return there is no explanation for how they survived; it's a bit weird.

Still, there are a few positive things to note: Anubis is introduced, and he'll later make a silent cameo in The Gathering; it's clarified that, even though the original head was destroyed in Upgrade, Coyote is still an ongoing threat; finally, the episode officially establishes that Gargoyles age half as fast as humans. I think that's enough for a 3.

THE HOUND OF ULSTER - 3: Banshee and Cu Chullain are introduced: the former will have a small role in The Gathering, the latter a cameo in Rock & Roll; moreover, Banshee informs us that Oberon will soon begin the Gathering and call the entire Third Race back to Avalon.

WALKABOUT - 8: Matrix is introduced and Dingo is now officially a hero, which brings us one step closer to Bad Guys; it's also the first appearance of the Shaman and Anastasia Renard.

MARK OF THE PANTHER - 8: Anansi is introduced, and he'll be another silent cameo in The Gathering; Diane finally learns the truth about the Gargoyles, and thanks to her Goliath and Angela are able to patch up their differences.

PENDRAGON - 9: The Spirit of Destiny is introduced, and so is the Lady of the Lake (silent cameo silent cameo silent cameo), Arthur regains Excalibur and picks Griff as his first modern-day knight - but ok, the reason this one gets a 9 is that, following this episode, Macbeth is officially an ally to both the Clan and Arthur.

EYE OF THE STORM - 8: Odin is introduced, giving us another character for the "will reappear in The Gathering" pile; plus, we learn the origins of the Eye of Odin, and by the end of the episode another Key to Power has ceased to exist.

THE NEW OLYMPIANS - 1: Yes, 1. At the moment, none of these characters have ever returned and no event from this episode has ever been mentioned in any way whatsoever; call me back when the spin-off gets approved and I'll raise the vote accordingly, but for now this is the most skippable story of the entire series, historically-wise.

THE GREEN - 6: The Mayan Clan (together with its magical pendents) is introduced, the first Gargoyle Clan we learn of not to have its origins in Europe, and Goliath reveals that once there were Clans all over the world; Jade and Turquesa depart for their own World Tour, while, back in Manhattan, Lexington and Broadway take possession of the Sun Amulet.

SENTINEL - 2: Nokkar will warrant a mention (more or less) in Hunter's Moon; moreover, Lydia Duane and Arthur Morwood-Smyth make a return appearance. Until Gargoyles 2198 becomes a reality, that's a 2.

See you tomorrow for the final stories of Season 2.

CarumboZabumbo
Noi siamo le creature della notte! Noi siamo... i Gargoyles!

I would honestly put "The Price" on a higher level, Hudson-centered episodes like that, or "Long Way to Morning" or "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time" are very character based and not just for Hudson. So even if they don't add much to a larger plot in the making they can reveal or add quite a bit on character development or the like.

Lighthouse not only establishes the Arthurian lore that will be important later on, it moves Hudson and Broadway along as characters. In a lesser series Hudson could easily be stuck in the "old fogey who doesn't understand the modern world" role but his meeting with Jeffery not only got another friend for the Clan, but a lesson that no one is too old to learn and grow. Broadway could have easily been stuck as the "big, tough, dumb guy" but his interaction with Macbeth (which this episode also establishes that while antagonistic, still has his code of honor) helps him grow and becomes far more dynamic.

And what I like most about "The Price" is the clash between Hudson and Xanatos' personal philosophies. Xanatos wants to defeat old age before it has a chance to get him (and Fox) and Hudson's age has given him wisdom and perspective. Even after his loss Xanatos continues his pursuit of immortality and it would not surprise me if this shows up again in the comics.

Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

BISHANSKY - Thanks for telling us about the project (or maybe "sub-project", because it's part of the GargWiki. I can recommend a few books on castles (a subject that's long interested me) if you like. (One that I've mentioned here before is David Macaulay's "Castle", which deals with the building of a fictional concentric castle in Wales by Edward I, but based on the building of real castles, which includes a bit-by-bit display - with good illustrations - of the castle's construction, and has a glossary of castle-terms at the back. The castle's name is Aberwyvern, by the way. I don't know if the book's still in print or easily available in libraries, but if you can find it, I highly recommend it.)
Todd Jensen

"All very nice stuff, but not the most fundamental for the development of the series."

I don't know. I think how the characters grow can matter very much.

Besides High Noon's early bit with the reading lesson, you have that scene where Broadway express an interest in how many books Macbeth has, and the latter stating he knows how to read them.

Or informing Angela near the end of the Castle having a great kitchen and an "even greater library".

As an aside, Owen response to Goliath demanding to know where Broadway and Hudson are is fun especially in hindsight regarding who he is.

Also Banquo and Fleance trying to secretly discuss that the Scroll they failed to apphrend is likely at the bottom of the ocean only for Macbeth to overhear.

But yeah, speaking of character moments, Macbeth also letting the clan go at the end is another good bit reinforcing his honor.

Antiyonder

So over at the GargWiki, last week we started a new project to give every major location in Castle Wyvern and the Eyrie Building it's own page. Prior to this, it was just two large pages. The castle and the building. We're not finished yet. Most of these entries are just stubs... especially since I'm ignorant of castle construction and a lot of the terminologies. But they're shaping up well.

But really, this helps showcase the work Frank Paur and his team of artists put into these locations. So many angles, locations. Great visuals. The backgrounds on this show were just gorgeous and deserve to be featured.

Part of the fun has been trying to figure out where in the castle some locations are. The Great Hall is easy. The rest are guesses, some educated. The living quarters seems obvious. No clue where Xanatos's office is, save that the window must be facing south since the view is always down town Manhattan.

Frank and his team put so much into this. It's only right to give their work the attention it deserves.

What I would give for a Gargoyles art book.....

Greg Bishansky

CARUMBO - Thanks for the latest "historical significance" post. As a cat-lover, I'm glad that you included the part about Hudson and the trio taking in Cagney at the clock tower; Cagney's been a bit character so far, but I'm still pleased that the production team addressed the issue of what happened to him in Elisa's absence (and, as you said, wouldn't return from the World Tour to discover that her cat had starved to death in her absence).
Todd Jensen

Todd - "Judging from its number, that of "Re-Awakening", and your mention that the next comment will go up to "Kingdom", I take it that you're doing thirteen episodes at a time."
Exactly - this way I'll be done with Season 2 by Friday; I'll do Clan-Building and Bad Guys on Saturday, and then finally a wrap-up comment on Sunday. I won't be doing the Dynamite comics because I don't think enough time has passed for us to judge their historical value yet; maybe next year.

OUTFOXED - 9: Renard and Vogel are introduced, adding two more recurring characters to the fold (including a new human ally to the Clan); we have our first mention of Anastasia Renard, and learn that Owen used to work for Cyberbiotics, a detail that will turn out to be fundamental for his backstory; and of course, we learn Fox’s birth name and her background.

All of this would have made the episode an 8 on the historical scale - but then Fox announced her pregnancy, which will bring gigantic developments to the relationship between the Manhattan and the Xanatos Clan, and so the rating goes up.

REVELATIONS - 8: Matt is finally let in on the secret (and we get an explanation for why Elisa is so little inclined to reveal it); he also becomes a member of the Illuminati, but that hasn’t had much of an impact on the story yet. Moreover, we get some new info about the Illuminati themselves: Martin Hacker is revealed to be one of them, it’s mentioned that Xanatos is only a lower-echelon member and the Society’s use of rejuvenation drugs is brought up for the first time. Oh, and it’s the first appearance of Jack “I hate bums” Dane.

DOUBLE JEOPARDY - 9: There ain’t much to say about this one: it’s the first appearance of Thailog, a villain that’s becoming ever more important with each new appearance and that has, by now, basically taken over Xanatos’ original role of “Evil Amoral Billionaire”; plus, on a more general level, it confirms that it’s possible for Sevarius to clone Gargoyles, and this won’t be the last time he does so.

UPGRADE - 9: Another big one: the Pack gets upgraded so that they can remain competitive villains for the foreseeable future, while Brooklyn gets upgraded as second-in-command, a role he still has in the present day. Dingo being disgusted by what his teammates have done to themselves sets the stage for his redemption, and the tradition of Coyote getting a new body in each of his appearances starts here. This is also, weirdly enough, the debut of Talon’s revised appearance (no, really, he appears for two seconds during Coyote’s presentation - it’s a really strange choice).

PROTECTION - 4: The big thing here is that this is the episode where Dracon gets arrested - but it actually sticks this time, to the point that he’s still in prison even in the current comics; it’s also the introduction of “Jalapeña!”, which, depending if you’re Greg Weisman or Frank Paur, is either the best or the worst thing that was ever added to Gargoyles. Also, first appearance of minor characters Art and Lois.

THE CAGE - 9: Talon’s stint as a villain ends, Fang gets some proper characterization and Claw is established as a mute; the Mutates accept their situation (while receiving some shiny new designs) and we get the founding of the Labyrinth Clan. Moreover, the Maza family learns what happened to Derek, which brings them one step closer to learning the truth about the Gargoyles themselves during the World Tour. Oh, and first actual appearance of Beth Maza.

THE PRICE - 5: This episode properly establishes Xanatos’ desire for immortality (although, as Todd noted, by this point we had actually already seen him attempt to gain immortality once before, in City of Stone); it also introduces the Cauldron of Life, which will make another appearance - in a very different form - in Cloud Fathers.
This is also where Owen gains his stone hand - but I’d argue that, despite it being a permanent change to an important character, it’s not as significant as other changes that have happened or will happen throughout the series, because Owen having a stone hand doesn’t really impact the story overmuch - it’s a cool detail more than anything else.

AVALON - 10: Where do I begin? This story introduces Angela and has her join the main cast, while also establishing the concept of rookery parentage; it brings several medieval characters into the present day (and kills off two of them for good); it introduces the Avalon Clan, which solves the longstanding “what happened to the Eggs?” question and gives the Gargoyle race some hope for the future; it introduces Avalon itself, and establishes that the Third Race abandoned it long ago (but doesn’t yet reveal why); it explains why the Weird Sisters did what they did and establishes Oberon’s Law of non-interference; it introduces King Arthur and sends him off into the modern world; it destroys the Grimorum forever and allows Goliath to regain possession of the other two Keys to Power; it frees Demona and Macbeth from the Weird Sisters’ control and even finds the time to fill us in on another piece of Scottish history (which sets the stage for Brooklyn’s first adventure through time). Finally, it begins the World Tour, which will take over most of the tv show’s remaining runtime. Anything else?

SHADOWS OF THE PAST - 7: This episode is significant not so much for what it introduces or changes, but for what it concludes: by redeeming the Captain and allowing his spirit to move on, it officially closes the book on his character (flashbacks aside). Still, the episode does introduce the Megalith Dance, which shows that Wyvern isn’t just a place like any other (a concept that will be brought back with a vengeance in Dark Ages); plus, by showing that Hakon is still active in the present day it sets the stage for Vendettas.

Oh, and it’s the first appearance of Hakon’s axe (that sound you hear in the distance is Greg Weisman screaming).

HERITAGE - 2: Raven and Grandmother are introduced here and will later make a silent cameo in The Gathering; that’s currently the beginning and end of this episode’s historical importance.

KINGDOM - 9: The Labyrinth is now in full swing as a refuge for the homeless; Fang is removed from the Clan, while Talon officially becomes its leader; on the main characters’ side of things, Brooklyn’s role as second-in-command is brought to the forefront for the first time, and we see him come to grips with it; he gets over his crush for Maggie as well. Moreover, we get the introduction of a few more minor characters (Al, Chaz and Lou), and Cagney goes to live in the Clock Tower (which is significant in that it explains why Elisa won’t have to dispose of a cat corpse once she returns from the World Tour).

There’s a negative too, though: a big deal is made over Xanatos learning that Goliath and Elisa have disappeared - and then nothing comes of it; tsk tsk.

See you tomorrow for the episodes up until Sentinel.

CarumboZabumbo
Noi siamo le creature della notte! Noi siamo... i Gargoyles!

So just providing more links from article to article and fixing up some redirects.

Just to be clear though, anytime Iago/Coldsteel's "By the Dragon" quote is in an article, should it go to [SPOILER] the Wyvern or Dragon [/SPOILER]?

Antiyonder

JURGAN> Heh, now that you mention it, I imagine that's how the Light probably works. XD
Algae
You are loved.

It struck me that there's one other "Historical Significance" moment in "City of Stone"; this is the first hint we get of Xanatos's striving for immortality. We don't get formally introduced to it until "The Price", but nevertheless, it's clear on a close look that Demona's cover story for her broadcast - steal one minute of life from everyone watching and add it to her life-span and Xanatos's - is a foreshadowing of this goal of Xanatos's.

JURGAN - Thanks for sharing that one with us; it's certainly an amusing notion (though I agree we'd never see it officially).

Todd Jensen

Saw this posted somewhere, and while I'm not in favor of an official Marvel/Gargoyles crossover, this made me smile:

"Okay, hear me out... Victor von Doom and David Xanatos crossover, where both of them are expecting treachery at every turn, but it turns out they both decided to do the one thing the other guy wouldn't expect, and be completely honest and trustworthy, with eighteen layers of treacherous contingency plans just waiting for the other guy to cross the line first. Ends with both of them absolutely furious that they somehow just became friends, meaning all that preparation was a waste of time."

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

CARUMBO - Thanks for the comments on the series up to "High Noon". (Judging from its number, that of "Re-Awakening", and your mention that the next comment will go up to "Kingdom", I take it that you're doing thirteen episodes at a time.)

I've long thought that the first season ending with the gargoyles becoming Manhattan's protectors was significant, and not just because it was a major turning point for the clan's lives. We got an entire 13-episode season out of the gargoyles' adventures before they made their vow to protect the city. To me, it meant that while that element was an important part of their story, the cornerstone was that they were gargoyles; their "gargoyleness" wasn't just a plot device to give them crime-fighting abilities, but the core of who they were.

I've also thought that the choice of gargoyles as the leads played a major part in shaping the series - that they were just the right "mythical species" for it. Gargoyles are a fantasy creature, but also rooted in real-life in the sense that while living gargoyles are imaginary, gargoyle sculptures are real, an actual architectural feature. Gargoyles are (more or less) a medieval creation (though the concept seems to have pre-dated the building of the medieval cathedrals that architectural gargoyles are most often associated with), but have been made as decorations for modern-day buildings, making them part of the "here and now". And the notion of "gargoyles protect", a concept associated with the original architectural gargoyles of the cathedrals, provided the gargoyles of the series with a natural, organic reason to take up the "protecting the city/crime-fighting" mantle, in a way that very few, if any, other classic mythical creatures could have enjoyed. They were exactly the right fit for such a series.

Todd Jensen

Todd, Fedora Guy & Matt - Thanks for your feedback; I'll keep these coming then.

LEADER OF THE PACK - 9: Coyote is introduced, while Fox leaves the Pack for good, which arguably makes this the first appearance of the group “proper”; on the heroes’ side, Lexington comes to grips with his hatred of the Pack: from this moment on he’ll continue hating them - at least the completely unrepentant members - but he’ll have more self-control about it. But of course, the biggest thing here is that, after implying it in Her Brother’s Keeper, this episode confirms that Xanatos and Fox are a couple, a revelation that will spearhead several fundamental developments for both of them.

METAMORPHOSIS - 9: Another very important episode, featuring the introduction of Sevarius and the Mutates - although mostly Talon and Maggie, since Fang only gets one line of dialogue and Claw being a mute won’t be established until The Cage; Brooklyn also meets the first of his Not Great Loves, starting a trend that will continue up until Clan-Building.

On the negative side, there are two things: 1)the designs for the Mutates that appear in this episode will be thrown away in all their subsequent appearances with no explanation (yes, I know that Greg said that the mutation process wasn’t quite complete here, but they never say it in the series proper) and 2)Elisa declares war on Xanatos and swears to bring him down… but then never does anything proactive against him. Still, the stuff that does end up mattering is too important for this to bring down the rating.

LEGION - 9: Yup, three in a row. We learn new information about the backstory of Coldstone and are introduced to his split personality problem through the first appearance of Desdemona and Iago, both of which are still important in the present day (not to mention the past, thanks to Dark Ages) of the series.

On the negative side: will Xanatos ever use that computer virus for anything?

A LIGHTHOUSE IN THE SEA OF TIME - 5: Hooray! Finally a story with a lower vote!

This is an episode of small things: we are introduced to several minor characters (Banquo & Fleance, Professor Duane & Doctor Morwood-Smyth, and of course Jeffrey Robbins), we see Macbeth’s lightning gun for the first time, it’s Gargoyles’ first use of the Arthurian myths and Broadway and Hudson start learning to read, which will be brought up a few more times in the future. All very nice stuff, but not the most fundamental for the development of the series.

THE MIRROR - 10: This, on the other hand, is one of the most important episodes of the entire show: it introduces Puck, and through him the entire Third Race (with concomitant first hints about his true identity and first mentions of Oberon and Titania); it changes Demona forever by giving her the ability to become human during the day; and it’s the episode where the Goliath/Elisa romance officially becomes part of the series’ text rather than subtext. It has it all.

THE SILVER FALCON - 6: Another relatively minor episode on the historical scale: Martin Hacker and Dominic Dracon make their debut; Mace Malone is mentioned, thus setting the stage for Revelations, and we learn that Matt used to work for the FBI before joining the NYPD. Not too shabby, but we’ve had better.

EYE OF THE BEHOLDER - 9: Speaking of “better”...

After Leader of the Pack revealed that they are a couple, this episode clarifies that Xanatos and Fox actually do love each other, and we even see their engagement; we learn that the Eye of Odin is a magical artifact, and the Clan gains possession of it; moreover, Goliath and Xanatos make an alliance for the first time, thus starting to set the stage for the Clan returning to live in the Castle. Finally, it’s the first of Gargoyles’ Halloween stories.

VOWS - 9: We are introduced to the Phoenix Gate, and now all of the original Three Keys to Power are in the Clan’s hands; after their engagement, we see Xanatos and Fox’s marriage; Goliath finally accepts that him and Demona will never get back together; the Illuminati are confirmed to exist, and we learn that Xanatos is one of them; we get some more Wyvern backstory with the introduction of Princess Elena and the reveal that Demona used to be the Archmage’s apprentice; two more minor characters are introduced (Petros Xanatos, through which we also learn some information about his son’s past, and Judge Roebling) and there’s even enough time to establish the Archmage’s desire for the Three Keys to Power. Did I forget anything?

CITY OF STONE - 9: We learn the truth about Demona and Macbeth’s past and the secret to their immortality; the Weird Sisters are introduced, and so are the Hunters (although it’s not yet revealed that they still exist in the present day); the Xanatos/Demona alliance is officially over as of this story, and the writers begin to set the stage for the Battle of Avalon by reminding us of the Eggs and ending the story with Demona and Macbeth in the Weird Sisters’ hands. It says something that the second Goliath/Xanatos alliance is almost a footnote compared to everything else.

HIGH NOON - 8: The stage setting for the Battle of Avalon continues: we learn that Demona and Macbeth are now under the Weird Sisters’ thrall, and the Three Keys to Power are stolen from under the Clan’s nose; moreover, Coldstone gets reactivated and leaves New York for the foreseeable future.

There’s a “but”, though: the Gargoyles end this episode thinking that Demona and Macbeth know exactly where they live - and then the matter is never addressed or even just mentioned in any subsequent episode; this is arguably the biggest continuity fail of the entire series.

Tomorrow I'll do the stories up until Kingdom.

CarumboZabumbo
Noi siamo le creature della notte! Noi siamo... i Gargoyles!

Carumbo> I appreciate you gave Reawakening a 10 since it is my favorite episode. That change from survival mode into proactive protectors is one of the best moments in the series in my opinion. I consider that to be the moment the Manhattan Clan was founded. Great stuff.
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"

Carumbo-I'd be interested in seeing more, one of the best things about Greg's style is that there's very little in each episode that feels unimportant and even fewer pieces of what I would "filler."

Morrand-Oh boy, you sent me down a rabbit hole, I used to practice fencing in my youth so this piqued my interest. Everything about the position of the sword looks like it should be going for a power thrust rather than a guard stance or movement but the placement of the hands looks awkward. The best guess I can give (as I am not an expert) is that this was a holdover from back when swordplay was primarily done with knightly swords (this can be seen as Liberi like most other Italian sword masters were influenced by the older Bolognese style of sword play). One thing that seems to be common among the debate is that it better serves as a transition to another stance or guard rather than exist on its own.

Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

CARUMBO - That was a good beginning on the "episode-by-episode" look at "Gargoyles" (particularly at how those early episodes made it clear that permanent changes - such as the gargoyles moving out of the castle and into the clock tower - could take place in the series); please keep it coming.

MORRAND - An interesting discovery. Thanks for sharing it with us.

Todd Jensen

Third.

There is a real, legitimate, sword position in Italian longsword fencing called the "posta di bicorno" (spelling varies a bit), the "two horn position." It is documented in Fiore dei Liberi's manuscript of 1409. And nobody knows for sure why it is called that: the position itself gives no clues (it is a closed low guard, with one arm bracing the other), nor does the manuscript explain. Of course, given who the "gargoyle of the sword" is (according to the latest "Quest" [1]), his distinctive physical features, and his story line, it'd be easier to explain in-universe, or at least to conjecture how it got its name.

[1] I've been geeking about this coincidence for about ten years now, myself, so I don't think it counts as a spoiler. It might not be news, either, I guess, but if not then it's topical again.

morrand - [morrand276 at gmail dot com]

Second!

Sorry I've been so absent. I do check in, but my students start today and it is a busy time to be a teacher!

Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"

First.

WARNING: what follows may very well be a triumph of pointlessness.

I want to try and give each Gargoyles story a "Historical Significance Rating" - that is, a rating based not on the quality of the story, but on how much it impacted the future of the series going forward; I'll start with Season 1, and if I get some positive feedback I'll keep going up until the SLG comics.

IMPORTANT: these ratings - which will be on a scale of 1 to 10 - will be up-to-date with everything that has happened in Canon thus far, but will ignore stuff that we know will happen (thanks to Canon-in-Training) but hasn't canonically happened yet; if/when those events actually do end up happening, I can always go back and revise the rating accordingly.

AWAKENING - 10: Well, this one was easy. Awakening introduces the original main characters, the original main villains, the fundamental themes of the series, the backstory, the basic mechanics of the Gargoyle race, a fair amount of supporting and minor characters, the existence of magic and probably a few other things that I'm forgetting - it's the basis for everything that followed.

THE THRILL OF THE HUNT - 9: Only slightly less important than the premiere. Not only it introduces the Pack, all of which are characters that are still going strong to this day, but on a meta level this is the episode that establishes that Gargoyles will be a series with actual continuity - Xanatos is still in jail rather than having escaped in-between episodes, and we are told that the Gargoyles living in the Castle is not a sustainable situation but rather something that will have to be solved. Plus, it features the series' first use of the Xanatos Tag.

The only thing that it has working against it is that, while it introduces Fox, it doesn't REALLY introduce her - the character that appears in this episode is fundamentally different from the one that'll appear for the rest of the series, because the writers still hadn't figured out the fundamental "She's in love with Xanatos" angle - but that's not enough to make the rating go down.

TEMPTATION - 8: Brooklyn's legendary grudge with Demona begins here, and the episode also establishes a few important facts about her - we learn that she's able to use magic and that she's been awake while the Clan slept; we also see her rip a handful of pages from the Grimorum, which she'll use in various following stories (the last one as recently as Here In Manhattan) - and on that note, this is also the first episode in which the name "Grimorum Arcanorum" is used.

DEADLY FORCE - 9: We get the first appearance of Tony Dracon and his gang, which ain't nothing, but more importantly this is the episode that introduces more or less EVERYTHING about Elisa: it's the first appearance of Derek, of her parents, her boss, her loft, her cat, her workplace (first appearance of the Clock Tower!), it's the first mention of her sister... even Matt gets to do a brief cameo. A good 90% of Elisa's not-Gargoyles-related life was established here.

The episode does have one thing that damages his historical value a bit, though: a big deal is made about Dracon being arrested at the end - and then he's back in The Silver Falcon without any explanation; oh well.

ENTER MACBETH - 10: It introduces Macbeth and his connection with Demona (and it's therefore the first use of Shakespeare in Gargoyles), but on a historical level that's almost a side attraction compared to Xanatos getting out of prison and the Clan having to leave the Castle to go live in the Clock Tower, thus creating a status quo that will endure up until the end of the tv show. Plus, the Grimorum is now officially in the Gargoyles' possession.

THE EDGE - 9: It's the first proper appearance of Matt, and this is where he becomes Elisa's partner, a development that's still important to this day; it's also the first appearance of Xanatos' battle armor, thus establishing that he'll be a threat of the physical as well as strategic kind for the Gargoyles. Moreover, the Eye of Odin is established, we get our first mention of the Illuminati and enduring minor character Travis Marshall makes his debut - what more could you want?

LONG WAY TO MORNING - 8: It introduces the Archmage, a character more important than anyone at the time - writers included - could imagine, and we get a lot of juicy information about the backstory of Castle Wyvern: Prince Malcolm is established, we learn that Hudson used to be leader, we see how he lost his eye and witness the passing of the torch to Goliath.

The present day section, though, is a bit more problematic: we are told that, for now, Elisa is safe from Demona because she thinks she's dead, and so won't go back to her loft to finish the job - but then Elisa and Demona meet again only two episodes later (with no one commenting the fact), and then Demona just... never goes back to Elisa's loft to finish the job, even though 1)she could do so at any time and 2)Elisa is the person she hates most in the world. It's not enough to destroy the episode's historical value, but it's not the series' finest use of continuity either.

HER BROTHER'S KEEPER - 9: Another important one: Derek goes to work for Xanatos and learns the truth about the Gargoyles, thus setting the stage for the Mutates' arc in Season 2; plus we get the first appearance of Proper Fox, with the iconic "He's the most brilliant man on the face of the Earth" scene being the one that made the writers figure out that she was in love with Xanatos.

On the negative side, we have the Gargcopter. Yes, it was dumb. Yes, it should never have existed in the first place. But since it exists, it's admittedly a bit weird that the Clan never used it again.

REAWAKENING - 10: It's the introduction of Coldstone, and that's a big deal, but the reason this one gets full marks is that it forever alters the series' narrative: from this point on, the Clan will never again be in Survival Mode, because this is where they officially become Manhattan's protectors - arguably the most important development in the entire series.

And that's it for now; let me know if you want me to go on.

CarumboZabumbo
Noi siamo le creature della notte! Noi siamo... i Gargoyles!