Morrand> Thanks, I guess. What do you mean correct it?
Antiyonder
posted @ Sun, Nov 17, 2024 9:16:12 pm EST from 68.119.3.1

Todd > [SPOILER]
"I think that Wyvern showing up in downtown Manhattan might be overdoing it myself"

Technically, I believe the Eyrie Building is in Upper Manhattan (or possibly Midtown...Central Park South is right on the border). I doubt that changes your opinion, though, unless you find dragons more acceptable uptown. :)
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Sun, Nov 17, 2024 8:05:42 pm EST from 69.118.30.106

MORRAND - [SPOILER] I think that Wyvern showing up in downtown Manhattan might be overdoing it myself - though I'd certainly like to see his response when he discovers a theft from his hoard. Especially given how much dragons are traditionally said to fly into a rage over this sort of thing - "the sort of rage that is only seen when rich folk that have more than they can enjoy suddenly lose something that they have long had but have never before used or wanted". [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sun, Nov 17, 2024 7:45:15 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

Todd: [SPOILER] Good memory. I went back and reread the story, and further back a couple of issues for any further clues, and it seems plausible. Amusingly, back in the second part, on the first mention of that play, we're told about "a wonderful and awe-filled Italian story of betrayal, which I'll write up in the new journal that Alexander ... has given me." I don't suppose it's too far a stretch to parallel the new journal with the new series ("Quest").

From a strict mechanical standpoint, so to speak, Coldstone has the advantage of being killable without making it permanent, so if it ends up being best to put him on cold storage for a while, so to speak, it's possible. (Not to leave out the bare possibility that Demona is able to make it stick this time, but I don't see how that's been set up at all.)

I am still holding out hope that his Certified Evil Smile (to blatantly infringe on Carumbo's trademark) reflects him realizing an enormous hole in Demona's plan: that it reflects him finding an opportunity to betray Demona rather than anyone else. I'm not counting on that, and certainly not on it working out that easily if at all. But I can hope.

Also not counting on Wyvern to show up in right rage come daylight, when he finds human-Demona in possession of his swag. Though that'd be fun.

Hat tip to Antiyonder for indirectly (and cleverly?) correcting my geographical confusion regarding Tibet vs. Nepal. [/SPOILER]
morrand - [morrand276 at gmail dot com]
posted @ Sun, Nov 17, 2024 11:48:48 am EST from 108.69.72.60

[SPOILER] If Coldstone does regret his actions and gets banished from Clan, could he join the Redemption Squad? [/SPOILER]
VickyUK - [vickysunseeker at aol dot com]
posted @ Sun, Nov 17, 2024 10:03:40 am EST from 86.161.171.212

Craig: Don't worry about the misspelling, I hadn't even noticed.

Todd: [SPOILER] I had wondered myself about the fate of the Three Keys following Demona's defeat, and I agree that sending them to Avalon would be a very sensible and elegant solution; and believe it or not, the notion that the Keys may be somehow connected to Mab's return came into my mind as well, although my idea was that Demona was going to use them to attack Avalon and in the process Mab's prison was going to be weakened, which at this point doesn't sound likely.

About Coldstone's fate: I've been wondering about that for a while, and I can see three possibilities: 1)he realizes that what he did was wrong and leaves the Clan out of shame, 2)he realizes that what he did was wrong and dies to stop Demona, 3)he DOESN'T realize that what he did was wrong and becomes a villain (at least for a while).

And honestly, at this point I kinda want the third option to happen: we're at the climax and Coldstone still hasn't shown any doubts or regrets about his actions - heck, in Issue #4 he got a certified Evil Smile (TM) when confronted with the zombiefied humans; if he were to suddenly redeem himself now, I can't help thinking that it'd feel rushed.

Now, I agree that that section from Three Brothers was probably foreshadowing, but what's being foreshadowed doesn't necessarily need to happen immediately afterwards - in fact, as you yourself mentioned, it can't, because there's little to no chance of Coldsteel appearing in the next issue. Therefore, I propose that, while the Ur-Othello story does offer a rough outline for how the final Coldtrio tale is going to go, that story is still some time in the future (or possibly a long time in the future - I'm becoming more and more partial to the notion that the Colds will still be around in 2198).

Finally, not gonna lie, I believe killing off either Hudson or Brooklyn would not only be a more devastating blow for the audience, but a more effective way of enacting change within the Clan and bringing about the next phase of the story. But we'll see. [/SPOILER]
CarumboZabumbo
"Ugh... looks like there's another fisticuffs coming. You know, this routine just kills me." - Mickey Mouse, "Lost & Found"
posted @ Sun, Nov 17, 2024 8:32:06 am EST from 79.32.55.25

So I guess as far back as 2001, Greg had planned for the Goliath and crew to enter the Himalayas in a more unusual way:
https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=3559
Antiyonder
posted @ Sun, Nov 17, 2024 2:16:43 am EST from 68.119.3.1

Sorry for the double-post, but [SPOILER] I reread the "Ur-Othello" part of "Dark Ages: Alliance" (in #5), with the possibility that it's a foreshadowing of events in the final issue of "Gargoyles Quest". It said of "the Moor" (i.e., Othello, and thus the counterpart to Coldstone that his "honor was only saved thanks to the sacrifice of his Great Love, the Countess Desdemona [counterpart to Coldfire]. But saving his honor cold not save his life, and so the Countess ended the play in mourning."

If this matches events in "Gargoyles Quest", this implies that Coldfire will make some sort of sacrifice (exactly what, we do not know; normally the heroic sacrifice is of one's life, but her counterpart is described as still alive at the end to mourn her lover) that will help Coldstone to realize that helping Demona was wrong - maybe even suffering some non-fatal injury, since it's been pointed out that Coldstone agreed to help Demona as long as no harm came to any of the Manhattan clan, which she's a member of - and take actions, but at the cost of his life.

Of course, the description of the play indicates some differences in action; particularly, there's a Iago-counterpart in it (called "Duke Iagolino") to betray the Othello-counterpart, but Coldsteel hasn't appeared in "Gargoyles Quest", and I very much doubt he'll be in #5; that would make the stage too crowded. But still, the timing of this play's summary (and the fact that we got a definite set-up for "Gargoyles Quest" in the form of the spear) makes me wonder if it's foreshadowing. If so, then Coldstone will probably be a casualty of "Gargoyles Quest" - a bold move, given that he's been in "Gargoyles" ever since the end of Season One. Although the Magus was introduced before that, and died in "Avalon Part Three". [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Nov 16, 2024 7:23:12 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

PHOENICIAN - [SPOILER] Yes, we don't know for certain that Hathor is one of the Third Race, but given that all the other mythological gods in "Gargoyles" so far have fallen into that category, it seems a reasonable assumption.

Something that also very recently occurred to me; the ColdDuo will also be active in the daytime, they've been established as major figures in this story (especially in the most recent issue) and that they're among the gargoyles who humans become subservient to under the spell. (And I still suspect that the "ur-Othello" play in "Dark Ages: Alliance" was intended as foreshadowing - Coldstone finally realizing that Demona doesn't actually have gargoyles' best interests in mind (except in her own self-delusions) and standing up to her, if at a serious cost to himself.... [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Nov 16, 2024 8:26:05 am EST from 68.99.93.213

Ok, so I read the issue as soon as I could get to the comic shop last Wednesday. So naturally, after all this time waiting for the followup to Quest #3, I only just found the time to write my thoughts for "Unequivocal Success".

[SPOILER] I'll admit, its the first page and I'm just wishing that NECA would just get on with the Coldstone figure they've been working on. Even a preorder would be a nice surprise for the holidays.

I'm curious as to what activated Cleopatra's Necklace. Did Cleopatra and Catherine the Great and Princess Aga Khan also radiate in energy when donning the pearls? Or does the necklace's previous owners only been minders and not wearers? Going back to the activation bit, perhaps Demona's done some preliminary work, an incantation or something?

Gungnir is next, and I do like your comment Matt, about how perhaps the spear is fighting Demona. Curious.

I like how the Necklace and Spear impact the Puck's Flute. Though Demona doesn't know how to play it, the might of the Keys grants her access to it. Reminds me of how the Archmage+ was able to wield the Grimorum Arcanorum after consuming it thanks the Eye of Odin. At least Demona+ didn't have to swallow it.

I remember having discussions earlier this year where I expressed my curiosity on how Demona+ would look, forgetting that the Archmage+ only looked differently thanks, again, to the Eye of Odin. So I was certainly not disappointed to see Demona go full-on Negaduck in appearance as she cast her commands on all humanity.

I too, did notice the green eye callback to "Temptation" and wonder like Ed did, if Elisa's instructions on Goliath will come into play.

The timestamps don't always do this, but I did find myself trying to think back to where I most likely was on Thanksgiving 1997. Much younger, certainly but if I were to hazard a guess, I was at my maternal grandparents' house. In the years that followed, my family would have less routine Thanksgiving locations. By 2014, I could check off Thanksgiving dinners in each of the five timezones of the lower 48. Man, how time flies.

I very much enjoyed watching the footage of balloon Barney's grisley fate after learning that Gnash's frustration was a real world reference. Motivated me to finally look up Bill Fagerbakke's quip referenced in a 1994 newspaper for the GargWiki, after years of hearing Greg Weisman share the anecdote.

Always a joy to see Jeffrey Robbins and Gilly. Especially interacting with Hudson. And another potential work around from Demona's thrall. He's certainly aware of the music in the scenes that follow, but I wonder how long that will last.

Brooklyn has a similar moment with Egwardo that Hudson had earlier in this arc. There's some red herrings happening here, but after trying (and failing) to anticipate Greg Weisman's chess moves vis-a-vis the GTF funding, I'm content with waiting and seeing what's in store. But I do worry Egwardo's not going to know the entire Manhattan Clan (as we know it) when it hatches in the next four months (on the timeline -- who knows which issue it might happen!).

Nice to see Jade and Turquesa still around, and I do wonder how their pendants will come into play. They were a detriment in the 2009 radio play, but they could be the ace Demona hasn't anticipated as Craig suggested. Another puzzle piece indeed.

I always enjoy learning about Elisa's family life. I wonder how Talon and Maggie and Michael Peter Maza (and the rest of the Labyrinth) might be celebrating this year? For that matter, I'm curious if Demona's considered the implications of the mutates in her incantations. I don't anticipate their participation in this arc (to borrow from Dominque Destine in the 2009 radio play, "Our stage is crowded enough."), but I do wonder if their genetic alterations is a scientific loophole to Demona's magic.

Desdemona and Goliath on patrol is fun, especially given what we know that the two have yet to put together. I particularly like how Desdemona rests her hand on Goliath's shoulder and wonder how that looks mid-glide. I admit I had to double check my pages given that we suddenly had a 10th Century flashback with Goliath and his then-Angel.

I'm not sure what these purple shapes on the road outside Demona's Townhouse are supposed to be. Thought it might have been something mid-glide.

The fact that it's taken time for the incantation to spread geographically really speaks to the distinct difference in Key combinations. Realizing that the Three Keys aren't necessarily the same Keys throughout history, I've been wondering just what were the Roman Magus's Keys when he cast the Humility Spell. Given that the impact of that spell has had a lasing effect on all gargoyles, the Phoenix Gate must have had a role. But I do think that still leaves open the possibility that it could have been a different combination than what the Archmage+ had.

Oh, the Clock Tower. I still think that, in time, the Manhattan Clan's old home will eventually serve as a squad room for future gargoyle members of the GTF, but its clearly not that in 1997. Gotta wonder how Goliath does enters the precinct. From the Clock Tower closet entrance or through the front door?

Meanwhile, Demona (once again) enters casually throgh through the front door.

Atop a silver falcon on the Apex Tower, Coldfire finds her priestess sensibilities once more. Very cool. And once more, I can only wish NECA would notice. For both Coldfire and her former "Desdemona".

The contrast in Coldfire and Coldstone's reactions to the human masses kneeling to heed their commands is one of the more iconic moments in the issue, and I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up as future avatars for this comment room (we haven't had any Dynamite options yet, Gore. Seriously, no pressure).

There is something funny about Demona+ going up the Eyrie Building's elevator. Something about dealing with cosmic forces while operating mundane equipment.

I love that Hudson has read a good twenty or so books since the events of "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time". When he and Lex visited Knight's Spur in 1996, their conversation with Arthur and Griff leading to the point "All things are true, few things are accurate" seemed to stay with the elder gargoyle. I'm inclined to think he's been sticking to non-fiction, but I'm curious to learn what Hudson's been reading.

And then there's the other wildcard -- Demona turning human. So many possibilities for how this arc can end (I didn't even get into if Alex might play a role, as Matt suggested). I can't wait. :--)

Todd: I remember last week mentioning to GregXB and Matt what will be the ultimate fate of the new Three Keys, pointing out as you did that destroying them would only create another vaccuum, but I admit I did not consider that Jade and Turquesa might ferry them to Avalon. And I defintely did not consider that they might be the seeds to bring about Mab. I would at least point out that there's no guarantee that Hathor is, in fact, a Child of Oberon, but I have to admit what you've suggested is certainly my favorite theory of the many that have been mentioned in the last eleven days. [/SPOILER]
Phoenician
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."
posted @ Sat, Nov 16, 2024 3:59:33 am EST from 68.2.64.232

One other thought about what might happen in the final issue of "Gargoyles Quest".

[SPOILER] Once the clan defeats Demona (which we know will have to happen), they'll have the challenge of what to do about the new Three Keys to Power. They obviously can't let them be recaptured by Demona or anyone else with malign intentions. But if they destroy them, three new keys to power will emerge, again, for those who covet such power to seek out.

Except - as people here have pointed out - all three of these objects are creations of the Third Race. And Jade and Turquesa were planning to return to Avalon shortly (if with that departure being delayed thanks to Demona's attack). They can take the Three New Keys (or at least Gungnir and Cleopatra's Necklace, if Owen/Puck still wants to hold on to the flute) with them and turn them over to Odin and Hathor - or maybe even Oberon - for safekeeping.

What would be tempting - if maybe a wild shot - would be if the Three New Keys wind up starting - or at least contributing to - the chain of events that results in Queen Mab escaping her prison. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Nov 15, 2024 6:53:23 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

I should post here more often, I mostly post my thoughts on Tumblr.

I have a couple of thoughts from the latest issue I like to share.

[SPOILER] Could Antoinette be a reincarnation of a previous Gargoyle from the old Wyvern Clan, maybe Hyppolyta or Antiope. That's why she's so loyal to Demona.

As Owen/Puck is under Demona's mind control, he can't protect Alex, so could this be the perfect opportunity for Raven to kidnap him. It could be the next main story. [/SPOILER]

Noneofyourbusiness - [SPOILER] I'm from the UK and Thanksgiving is not celebrated here. There might be a few people who probably do celebrate it but it's not major holiday here. The only thing we join in, is Black Friday [/SPOILER]
VickyUK - [vickysunseeker at aol dot com]
posted @ Fri, Nov 15, 2024 5:11:25 pm EST from 86.161.171.212

NoneOfYourBusiness > [SPOILER]
I may be off base here because I've never lived in the U.K. But my understanding is that, while the U.S. and Canadian Thanksgivings have their roots in historical British Thanksgiving/Harvest Festival traditions, "Thanksgiving" as a holiday is not really celebrated in England today. Obviously, your experience in Scotland proves that that isn't entirely true of the entire U.K., but maybe it's more of a region-specific thing? Friends I know in London say that a Harvest Festival is celebrated in September, but this is more of an archaic tradition mostly celebrated as a fun thing for children. Anyway, take this anecdotal, second-hand evidence for whatever it's worth...
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Fri, Nov 15, 2024 1:58:19 pm EST from 69.118.30.106

I'll confess that Xanatos's "It's alive!" line is one of the ones that's stuck with me, despite it just being a bit of silliness in the middle of the episode (which is otherwise excellent). There is an endearing self-awareness many of the characters have throughout the series that's so quickly summarized by it.

It plays well with what Todd Jensen mentioned about the gargoyles having their own lives beyond just being heroes. With such deep characterization, there's just no way to prevent them sort of recognizing there's a story going on around them and they're playing a part in it, and occasionally defying their roles to good effect.
morrand - [morrand276 at gmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, Nov 15, 2024 1:56:25 pm EST from 108.69.72.60

That's fair. Forgot about that. Maybe [SPOILER] it just isn't a thing for the London Clan. [/SPOILER]
Matt
"Human problems become gargoyle problems..."
posted @ Fri, Nov 15, 2024 1:44:49 pm EST from 204.184.178.1

[SPOILER] It also would have been a good place to point out that the folklore around Thanksgiving in the US is about as accurate as Christmas being Christ's birthday. [/SPOILER]
Noneofyourbusiness
posted @ Fri, Nov 15, 2024 12:35:34 pm EST from 74.74.246.146

Matt> [SPOILER] The comic had Lex say that Thanksgiving isn't a thing in England and Amp not correct him, reinforcing that common misconception. [/SPOILER]
Noneofyourbusiness
posted @ Fri, Nov 15, 2024 12:34:05 pm EST from 74.74.246.146

Noneofyourbusiness> [SPOILER] The comic (and Greg) never claimed that the holiday was invented in the US. It was only discussing among characters (who all have native ancestry) the complicated history and associations that the holiday has for native populations. I don't know much about how peoples in the UK celebrate Thanksgiving, but the folklore surrounding the holiday here in the US is certainly a mixed bag. [/SPOILER]
Matt
"Human problems become gargoyle problems..."
posted @ Fri, Nov 15, 2024 11:13:50 am EST from 204.184.178.1

[SPOILER] Sigh. I would have thought we wouldn't get the common misconceptions about Thanksgiving in a Gargoyles story given that Greg seems to know quite a bit about history, but I guess like most Americans he didn't know that it is a thing in England. Harvest Thanksgiving came from England and is still celebrated there. The famous Thanksgiving event with the Wampanoags was not the beginning of the holiday, not even if you only count times it was celebrated in America. We also celebrated Thanksgiving when I lived in Scotland as a child. [/SPOILER]
Noneofyourbusiness
posted @ Fri, Nov 15, 2024 9:40:07 am EST from 74.74.246.146

And the "service" part will return in "The Price" (it's certainly called to mind a major line of Owen's from it).
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Nov 15, 2024 8:41:25 am EST from 68.99.93.213

"Re-Awakening" is such a good episode to end the season on, especially with the decision to protect Manhattan rather than just their home. One thing that I thought of recently is the intricacies of the expression "Protect and Serve" had how that resonates with Goliath. In the past, the clan protected the humans and served as their guardians of the night, even with the growing superstition and prejudice coming from the humans. At the same time, Katherine and the others of Castle Wyvern upheld their duty as local lords to shelter and protect the serfs from the Viking attacks.

Fittingly, it's a betrayal from both humans and gargoyles that led to the sacking of Castle Wyvern and the loss of so many lives. Both the Captain and Demona betrayed the "service" part of their duties and others paid the price for it. Goliath observing Mr. Jaffe's obstinance even in the face of armed robbery re-awakens his own sense of justice, not just for the clan and their home, but for all who need protectors. Very much a "One touch of nature makes the whole world kin" kind of thing.

[SPOILER] And it's rather fitting that Demona still hasn't learned her lesson and now has twisted the notion of service into mind control. [/SPOILER]
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Thu, Nov 14, 2024 11:05:10 pm EST from 135.180.3.149

"Reawakening" is my favorite episode. I love the exchange between Elisa and Goliath in the Clocktower. And love the scene where the Clan takes on Manhattan as their protectorate. I love that Goliath chooses to take a proactive role. I consider that scene the moment where the gargoyles stop being just displaced survivors and the Manhattan Clan is truly formed. Awesome.
Matt
"Human problems become gargoyle problems..."
posted @ Thu, Nov 14, 2024 9:32:59 pm EST from 47.233.90.133

MATTHEW - Good comments on "Her Brother's Keeper" - and, yep, Elisa (as she recognizes at the end) doesn't handle her efforts to talk Derek out of accepting Xanatos's offer very well. Not to mention that Xanatos anticipates her by telling Derek about the gargoyles first - and while making it a biased account, admits to making a few "mistakes" in handling them (the phrasing suggests he's downplaying the fact that he was using them outright - I found myself thinking of Xanatos in "Enter Macbeth" describing his prison time as a "learning experience", prompting many fans to suspect that what he'd learned was to take extra precautions not to get caught next time).

I rewatched "Re-Awakening" today, completing the review of Season One. One thing that particularly strikes me about this episode - and the season as well - is how late the gargoyles' decision to protect the city (essentially becoming crime-fighters) is introduced. Not only the last episode of the season, but the last scenes in the last act of that episode. I think it brings home that, while the "gargoyles protect" element is important, the core element of the series is that they're gargoyles, living gargoyles with their own lives (and biology and culture, which have so delighted "Gargoyles" viewers), not just super-heroes. Their gargoylehood isn't just a device to give them "super-hero" abilities, but the core of who they are.

(And it strikes me that gargoyles felt like exactly the right "mythical creature" for such a series. They have links with both the medieval world (where architectural gargoyles, more or less, originated, though there are analogous features in earlier ages) and the modern (with architectural gargoyles still around; New York City has a lot of them, in particular) - and to top it off, the notion that they had a protective function, making their "protect the sity and its inhabitants" a natural development. (And real gargoyles protect as well, in a way. Gargoyle waterspouts - which is what true architectural gargoyles are; the technical term for "non-waterspout" gargoyles is "grotesques" - direct the water away from the buildings they're perched on, keeping it from slowly eroding or damaging those buildings. Even the "non-waterspout" gargoyles serve as something for the rain to bounce off of, also keeping it away from the buildings they're "perched" on.)

This episode feels particularly timely from the comics' perspective since we get introduced to Coldstone here, and see an early partnership (if short-lived) with Demona - though as we now know, not his last one. We also see his doubts about gargoyles working with humans that will eentually lead to that second partnership. [SPOILER] And Demona's description of Xanatos as her servant may well come across in a new light, after the most recent issue. [/SPOILER]

I still particularly like the scene where Coldstone fires off his arm-cannon for the first time, and is then staring at it, shocked and wondering just what has happened to him. He's got even more to concern him than the rest of the clan; not only is he awake in a strange city filled with technological devices unimagined in tenth century Scotland - but unlike the other gargoyles, they're built into him.

This episode forms a contrast to the "leaving the castle" arc earlier in the season. There, moving out of the castle was the right thing to do. Now moving away is treated as the wrong thing - though here, it's about staying true to your community (as the parallel case of Mr. Jaffe the storekeeper illustrates). (It helped, of course, that the gargoyles were the only residents of the castle in modern times, apart from Xanatos, who was their adversary, so they're not deserting a full protectorate.)

Elisa uses the police motto of "Protect and serve" for the first time in the series, grabbing Goliath's attention; it's clearly one of the major reasons why the production team chose to make her a police detective. (I remember that, in the early days of working on the series, all the way back to when it was a comedy series, they played around with other occupations for Elisa or the Elisa-counterpart; I recall an archaeologist as being one of them.) It makes it clear that she's a "kindred spirit".

The feature that most stands out to me about Mr. Jaffe is that his response to the robber is more annoyance, even exasperation, than fear; he's definitely a New Yorker. :)

Demona claims that the Wyvern clan was wiped out "by the humans whom [Goliath] trusted" - another example of her deception (and possibly self-deception). Of course, as she knows, the humans who slaughtered the Wyvern clan were the Vikings, whom Goliath definitely didn't trust. (There's an analogous moment in "Hunter's Moon Part Three", by the way; more about that when I get there.)

All in all, a fine episode (if you overlook Xanatos donning his gargoyle armor and showing up at Times Square all just seconds, apparently, after he was watching Coldstone's rampage on the monitor in the Eyrie Building), and a worthy ending to the first season.


QUOTES.

MR. JAFFE: That's the third time this month.

ROBBER: Well, we live in dangerous times.


DEMONA: Why do we risk ourselves to protect the humans' castle?

"OTHELLO": She's right. Let the Vikings have it. We can survive anywhere.

HUDSON: A gargoyle can no more stop protecting the castle than breathing the air.


GOLIATH: Is it not time to go on duty?

ELISA: Yeah, I guess it's time to do a little "protect and serve".

GOLIATH: Protect - and serve?


XANATOS: It's alive! Alive! (pause.) I've always wanted to say that.


DEMONA (to Coldstone): This is Xanatos, my servant.

{Xanatos immediately glowers at her in silence.}


GOLIATH: Why does that man keep his shop open? He could be robbed again. Why does he not leave?

ELISA: This is a dying neighborhood, Goliath. The big markets won't come here. If he closes this store, people will have no place to buy food. That's more important to him than hiding in his own castle.

GOLIATH: His... community needs him.

ELISA: To survive.


BROADWAY: Boy, that surround sound is great!

LEXINGTON: I don't remember any explosions in "Bambi".


XANATOS: Looks like our boy is having trouble making friends.


DEMONA: We have each created our own clans now, Goliath. You have yours and I have mine.

GOLIATH: You have no clan. You don't even know the meaning of the word.


GOLIATH: There has been enough death. There are so few of us left, my brother.


LEXINGTON: Hey, looks like we beat 'em here.

{Xanatos and the others arrive and blast them off their feet.}

BROOKLYN (climbing out of the snow he landed in): Remind me to be fashionably late next time.


LEXINGTON (after leading the Steel Clan robot to smash into the bridge): They always fall for that trick.


COLDSTONE: Is that all for us? Mere survival?

DEMONA: Isn't that enough?

GOLIATH: No. Gargoyles protect. It is our nature, our purpose. To lose that is to be corrupt, empty, lifeless.


ELISA: What happened to the monster?

GOLIATH: He was not a monster. He was family. And now he's gone.


LEXINGTON: Goliath? When you told Coldstone that gargoyles protect -

HUDSON: Like we breathe, boy. You know that.

BROOKLYN: But what do we protect?

HUDSON: The clock tower.

GOLIATH: No. That is merely where we sleep. This island, Manhattan, this is our castle. From this day forward, we protect all who live here, human and gargoyle alike.

ElISA: Are you all right? Is there anything you need?

GOLIATH: Yes. I need a detective.


MR. JAFFE: Not again! Can't you rob somebody else this time?

ROBBER: I'm not robbing you, man. Do me a favor. Call the cops, so I can turn myself in.

MR. JAFFE: What? Why?

ROBBER: Cause six monsters just told me to.

[Scene shifts to Elisa standing on a nearby rooftop, alongside the now stone clan.]

ELISA: You know what, guys? The city feels safer already.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Nov 14, 2024 8:14:02 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

One thing I noted in "Her Brother's Keeper" is that it plays around with the common tropes of the token human ally and keeping the non-human group of heroes a secret. It's easy to forget that the gargoyles were once public figures and while the recent events with Xanatos and the Pack have soured their experiences, they don't want to remain hidden away forever.

I actually liked Goliath's straightforward response to Elisa's dilemma, asking if she trusts her brother with the information of their existence. And one thing that's done well is that it doesn't gloss over Elisa's flaws in how she handled the situation. Wrangling Derrick into her pursuit of Xanatos set more suspicion on her than Xanatos, and her keeping the secret of the clan meant that when they were revealed Xanatos got to direct the narrative. The consequences of both of their decisions will come soon enough.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Thu, Nov 14, 2024 3:38:13 pm EST from 135.180.3.149

Todd > I believe the “Any landing you can walk away from…” quip predates Launchpad, as a joke in aviation circles. But DuckTales certainly popularized it.
Craig
posted @ Wed, Nov 13, 2024 7:54:04 pm EST from 166.198.21.78

[SPOILER] That is an interesting theory about the Mayan gargoyles (or at least their pendants) being used to stop Demona, and certainly has the advantage of using her "human by day" feature in a way that still feels different from "Religious Studies 101". [/SPOILER]

And I hadn't thought of Atlantis being involved in the strange features of the cave, but given Greg Weisman's hints (if still canon-in-training) about its connections with gargoyles, that makes very good sense to me.

I rewatched "Her Brother's Keeper" today. This is the one Season One episode where the gargoyles have a relatively minor role (though they're still crucial to the story); the focus is more on the human cast (Elisa and her family, especially Derek, Xanatos, and three of the Pack).

We still get some things for the gargoyles to do, of course. The trio get the helicopter sub-plot, and while it comes across as a fairly transparent toy plug (as Broadway states a couple of times, when you've got wings, a helicopter feels pointless), it does give us a look at their interactions, particularly the fact that they're wearing on each other a bit, with the rest of their rookery generation gone. And Goliath gets his big speech to Elisa and Derek about how at least they've got siblings to argue with, unlike him.

Elisa keeping the gargoyles secret is a major tension in this episode. While she points out that revealing them to Derek won't be enough (and indeed it isn't; Xanatos had prepared for that, in particular), we'll find out in Season Two that she had other reasons for keeping them secret; I wonder whether the production team had already thought of that aspect while working on this one. And she helps undo her own efforts by being too insistent to Derek, in a way that ensures he'll take Xanatos's job offer just to show that he can make his own decisions and isn't going to be bossed around by his older sister. (In particular, Elisa really shouldn't have tried confronting him in the locker room, making things embarrassing not only for Derek but for the rest of the male cops.)

We also flesh out the Pack a bit more, particularly a sense of how Jackal and Hyena differ from each other (they're both bloodthirsty, but Jackal wants to plan things out while Hyena would rather just charge in and make a bloodbath). And, of course, the revelation about Fox that will have major consequences in Season Two....

Elisa tries tailing Xanatos by helicopter because he always spots her following him by car. Of course, Xanatos notices the helicopter as well, and prepares for it.

We get our introduction to the Coyote Diamond, which will make its return in the Stone of Destiny story (in what seems like such a logical fashion now that I can't believe I didn't consider it before that).

Lexington is still angry at the Pack, focusing on dealing with Jackal and Hyena while the rest of the clan is more concerned with Elisa's response to Xanatos trying to hire Derek.

The trio are continuing to pick up on the modern world, with Lexington playing a video game and Brooklyn making references to "Star Wars" and "Star Trek" (the latter feels appropriate in light of where so many of the voice actors came from). Not to mention Lexington's "Any landing you can walk away from" which is associated with Launchpad McQuack (did "Duck Tales" originate that line, or was it around earlier?).

Brooklyn fares poorly in this episode; first, after the helicopter's crash-landing, Broadway lands on top of him (and it had to be Broadway), and then a tree falls on top of him outside Xanadu.

I found it amusing that Derek is so casual about the gargoyles, just saying in a matter-of-fact tone "So they do exist".

This is one of the rare occasions (in the "Disney Afternoon" stage) where we got a sense of the seasons in "Gargoyles" with the snow at the end; we'll see snow in New York in only two other episodes, "Re-Awakening" (coming just after this one) and "The Price". I've got a strong notion of why the snow at the end, too. There was only enough room in the episode for the set-up of Derek to enter Xanatos's service as a set-up for his getting turned into a Mutate in "Metamorphosis", the Mutate transformation itself had to wait until next season. But the production team weren't certain that there'd be a "next season", and so had to offer some sort of seeming resolution to the problem. So we have Elisa finding out that Xanatos wants Derek to work for him through talking with Fox and secretly taping her, then giving that tape to Derek; the audience could assume from this that Derek will listen to Fox's words and reconsider (which I honestly thought had happened until I saw "Metamorphosis" for the first time), in case Season Two doesn't happen. But we need to get the impression that Elisa actually fails. So we have the snow falling in a way that feels ominous, especially Elisa's response at the very end (and accompanied by some very foreboding music), setting us up for the revelation next season that she didn't succeed in getting Derek to change his mind. (And, of course, that interview with Fox had its own ramifications, thanks to the way Laura San Giocoma was reading her lines.)

QUOTES.

BROADWAY: Why do you want to learn how to fly a helicopter? You got wings.

LEXINGTON: Oh, you wouldn't understand.

BROADWAY: Right. I'm just a big dumb gargoyle with his brains in his stomach.

BROOKLYN: I couldn't have said it better.


BROADWAY: If cops were meant to fly, they'd have wings.


HYENA (on the Coyote Diamond): What's to stop us from just grabbing it and shooting our way free?

JACKAL: Style, dear sister, style. And the fact that I don't want to join Wolf and Fox in prison.


XANATOS: Never a gargoyle around when you need one, huh?


GOLIATH (to the trio): And please, try to get along.


LEXINGTON: And don't worry, I'll tell you what has to be done.

BROOKLYN: Oh, yeah? You and what Starfleet?


GOLIATH: Quiet, both of you! You don't know how lucky you are to have siblings to fight with. All of my rookery brothers are dead. And there is nothing, nothing, more important than family.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Nov 13, 2024 7:25:39 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

CarumboZabumbo > I realized I misspelled your username in a comment yesterday. Sorry for that!
Craig
posted @ Wed, Nov 13, 2024 7:14:08 pm EST from 69.118.30.106

Quest 4 review: [SPOILER] As most of us had predicted, Demona's plan with the new Keys is to achieve mass mind control, just like in the radio play; her use of the word "enthralled" to describe Toni is interesting - maybe her reasons for helping Demona will turn out to be as easy as "she was hit by a mind control spell at some point in the past"; then again, maybe not.

"I mean, we're better than Binzy!" Ugh - I'm still not a fan of Weisman's attempts at meta humour; this one could have worked (MAYBE) if it had been inserted in a conversation in a somewhat more subtle and natural manner, but having Gnash say the line with the utmost seriousness while doing a closeup (he even looks a bit angry!) is about as subtle as a punch on the nose.

It's nice to have Robbins - who, together with Petros Xanatos, is my favorite minor character - back, but hot damn, Hudson calling him "friend Robbins" felt unnatural in the extreme; I have the feeling Greg did it to quickly establish their relationship for new and/or forgetful readers, and if so - come on, do it through the actual conversation, this ain't your first rodeo.

Robbins' return feels like another death flag for Hudson - because after all, even if he turned out to once again be immune to the spell, it's not like he can contribute overmuch to a fight with Demona; I think Weisman may have put him in the centre of the action so that Hudson can have his best human friend there when he dies.

Speaking of which: like many others, Hudson's scene in the first issue raised more than a few flags for me, but then his lack of a role in the following two issues made me wonder if I had got it wrong; well, between Robbins' return and Brooklyn saying that Egwardo will be raised by the whole Clan I'm now getting ready to make a "Tribute to Hudson" music video in the near future.

I did not expect Jade and Turquesa to still be there: according to the Timeline, this means that they've been in Manhattan for over four months by this point, and have been missing from Guatemala for a year and a half - three times as much as Goliath's World Tour; I hope they've been able to send some sort of message to Zafiro and Obsidiana in that time, otherwise when they do return there's a risk they'll interrupt a perfectly lovely Wind Ceremony.

"We have been close - multiple times - but always she has vanished just as we arrived." "You suspect she was warned?"; maybe I'm dumb, but I'm having trouble visualizing the scene: if the Gargoyles got close to finding Demona, this must mean that they spotted her at some point - but if they spotted her, how would a warning by Coldstone help her? SHE WAS SPOTTED - it's not like he can warn her to get unspotted. Also, Coldstone was there all the "multiple times" she was spotted? How lucky of her.

Goliath thinking that most of Clan has become "complacent" about the hunt feels like another death flag ("Oh, if only we had taken the situation more seriously Hudson would still be with us, how tragic!"); Goliath talking about the distance that crept between him and Demona feels a bit amusing to me, considering that Demona was being villainous or semi-villainous, one way or another, throughout their entire relationship - it's less that a distance crept between them and more that Goliath fell in love with someone that never really existed.

The black-and-white effect around Demona looks incredible in its simplicity - and on that note, Qualano keeps being the best artist the comics have had up until this point: his work in this issue is truly stunning.

The fact that Coldfire can just effortlessly do her communicating-with-nature shtick once she decides to try it is easily the weakest part of the issue for me - it was so quick and easy that it doesn't feel like she went through an arc, it feels like she was a dumbass for never trying it before; rather than Goliath being proven right about his assumption that she could do it (and since when is Goliath an expert about these things, anyway?), I think it would have been better if she had been shown trying to do this in previous issues (of both Quest and Here in Manhattan) and mostly failing, but still slowly regaining her "sensitivities" with each attempt (with her managing to "feel" something here being mostly because the magic in this case is big enough that it's difficult to miss).

Coldstone smiling in a way that would make Coldsteel jealous is... interesting: by this point I had expected to see at least a few doubts, but instead the guy is perfectly fine with the idea of turning billions of peoples into zombies; it honestly feels a bit out-of-character - sure, Coldstone was always the more morally dubious of the good Gargoyles, but he was never THAT morally dubious and he always went back to the light relatively quickly; here, he's doing the most reprehensible thing of his life and basically gloating about it - I wonder if it'll turn out that Demona is influencing him through the Keys as well (not completely, but enough that he's not quite himself).

The cliffhanger wasn't hard to predict, but it's good; moreover, Brooklyn is now face-to-face with Demona for the first time since his return to the present, and I certainly hope Weisman will make the most of this interaction - come on, give us some tiny little spoilers for 2198, Greg.

All in all it's more of a good than a bad issue, but I'm not sure it was a good idea to have four issues out of five be pretty much entirely set-up; we're at the finale and we still have to solve more or less everything, which makes me worried that the last issue will be an anti-climax (and if so the entire miniseries would run the risk of being soured, as far as I'm concerned). [/SPOILER]

Craig: [SPOILER] Your theory about Demona's defeat makes so much sense that if it doesn't turn out to be right I'll probably end up disappointed; kudos. The only thing I'd change about it is that I don't want Jade and Turquesa to do it - sure, they're perfectly fine minor characters, but I don't think they have enough narrative weight to be the characters that end up stopping Demona's biggest plan ever.

On the other hand, if one (or two) between Goliath, Angela, Brooklyn or Hudson (or maybe Broadway) were to take the pendant(s) and do it, then the finale would be absolute Cinema. [/SPOILER]
CarumboZabumbo
"Ugh... looks like there's another fisticuffs coming. You know, this routine just kills me." - Mickey Mouse, "Lost & Found"
posted @ Wed, Nov 13, 2024 5:21:05 pm EST from 79.32.55.25

Matt > Interesting thoughts on the petroglyphs, Atlantis, and the Wyvern clan. Looking at it again, there are a LOT of glyphs resembling dragons and/or wyverns. Even the "Egyptian snake" one could be a rendering of a dragon. Which ties back in to Todd's idea as well, that at least some of the glyphs may have been carved by gargoyles and/or humans who worshiped/served Wyvern or his ancestors.
Craig
posted @ Wed, Nov 13, 2024 3:05:46 pm EST from 69.118.30.106

[SPOILER] That is a great theory on her defeat, and appropriately enough ties back to "Long Way to Morning." If the heroes can endure until sunrise, the Mayans can still act while the others are asleep and use Demona's own human transformation against her. [/SPOILER]
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Wed, Nov 13, 2024 12:12:29 pm EST from 135.180.3.149

Craig> I always thought the hieroglyphs in the cave seemed a mix of old and new world cultures. That always makes me thing that they share a common origin: Atlantis. I think the Lost Race was heavily involved with Atlantis (and perhaps its downfall). And I think Wyvern brought the ancestors of the Wyvern Clan from Atlantis. The Praying Gargoyle is Atlantean and looks decidedly like a Scottish gargoyle. I think Atlantis had many colonies and gargoyles from Atlantis followed (or were taken) along. For that reason, of all the surviving clans, I think the gargoyles most closely related to the Wyvern gargoyles are actually the Mayan Clan. The ancestors of the London Clan are native to the region and predate the Scottish gargs. Anyway, for all those reasons, I think Wyvern (the region) was an Atlantean colony and that the Megalith Dance and cave art were made by Atlanteans.

Also, [SPOILER] holy smokes! That is a great theory about how Demona might be defeated. If she becomes human and Jade and Turquesa remain as flesh, they may be able to command her to terminate the spell! Wow. It'd be especially interesting if Coldstone is there too and must decide to help Demona or not in that moment. Great thought! I had suspected that the key to her defeat would be threatening Alex. By doing so, Puck would be released since Oberon's magic is stronger than any of the New Keys. But I like your idea better (and not just because I love the Mayan Clan!). Guess we'll have to wait three weeks to find out. [/SPOILER]
Matt
"Human problems become gargoyle problems..."
posted @ Wed, Nov 13, 2024 10:00:46 am EST from 47.233.90.133

Todd >

[SPOILER]
I'm not entirely familiar with the radio plays, but your comment made me think of the fact that the Mayans could be key to the story's resolution... Especially if Jade and Turquesa are gargoyles during the day when Demona is a human. "All humans crave to serve commands of any gargoyle they do meet." Huh...the irony!
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Wed, Nov 13, 2024 8:57:53 am EST from 69.118.30.106

MATTHEW - Your post on "Long Way Till Morning" (a good one, by the way) reminded me of Greg Weisman's remark that they were deliberately ambivalent over whether Demona was using her laser cannon like a club rather than firing it because it had been damaged, or because she'd lost her temper and acting out of blind fury.

[SPOILER] With readers bringing up how a potential flaw in Demona's spell is that the enthralled humans will take orders from gargoyles, not just her, and the possibility of the Manhattan clan making use of that - I wonder if this could lead into another element of the "Religious Studies 101" radio play (which has already supplied many elements for this story, including Demona mind-controlling humans), and one that I've really wanted to see adapted: where Goliath, struggling with Demona over control of the spell, gains the upper hand because - as he put it in the radio play - "I am not the only one who reeks of humanity, am I - Dominique?" It struck me as a really great touch - the irony that the gargoyle who hates humans with a passion and wants to wipe them all out turns into a human regularly, and having that element become key to her defeat. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Nov 13, 2024 7:38:36 am EST from 68.99.93.213

Excuse the double post, but I finally got to read Quest #4.

[SPOILER] So the Three Keys to Power are based around mass mind control, this feels very indicative of the Light's plan in season one. Elisa and all of Manhattan kneeling before Demona harkens back to the Justice League kneeling before Vandal Savage. Once again, feels like another repurposing of Greg's ideas. Not a bad one, and it certainly makes for an effective cliffhanger, just something I noticed.

This feels like something I should've guessed though, Owen mentioning his past as the Piper of Hamelin I should've figured that mind control was the endgame. One neat detail is that the necklace of Cleopatra was originally from Hathor, goddess of care, love and joy among other things. Thus the mind control is meant to inspire love from the enthralled and devote themselves for their magistra.

On the subject of Coldfire, ever since Dark Ages, I assumed that their spiritualism is heavily tied to the wind and not just as a means of gliding but also by feeling the subtle changes in the air, a kind of tactile aeromancy. But she hasn't been able to feel the wind with her new metal body, hence the crisis of faith. Here we see that she's moving past that and feeling the changes on a spiritual level. I can't imagine the eventual confrontation with her mate going well, especially if he doesn't see what's wrong with mass brainwashing.

As has been pointed out, there's a flaw in Demona's scheme in that humans are required to follow the commands of gargoyles rather than just her. I think we're going to see some conflicting orders in the next issue or so, could be dramatic or hilarious.

One last notion or theory, Owen has brought up the conflict between this identity and Puck and how that limits him, he's been given orders to remain as Owen (I figure Demona's hedging her bets because she knows that while she holds the pipe, she's not the true master). But one thing she doesn't know about is that he's forbidden from turning into Puck except in teaching or protecting Alexander. In Young Justice, Red Tornado managed to create a subroutine before his mind was completely overtaken that prevented him from infecting any other heroes, especially his wards. I'm wondering whether will see something like this if Demona tries to harm Alexander and Oberon's decree manages to override Owen's brainwashing and that leads to the tide being turned in the upcoming conflict. It would be fun to see Puck return proper to the comic.

Some Final Thoughts:

Aga Khan is such an interesting thing, besides being an actual spiritual title it's name basically translates to "Lord Supreme" or "Lord Lord."

Craig mentioned the flying music notes looking like something from DC's Silver Age and I kept help but think of when the Pied Piper (villain turned reluctant ally to the Flash) managed to fend off the corrupting influence of the Anti-Life Equation by playing Queen's "The Show Must Go On. [/SPOILER]

Great issue, Greg! Can't wait for the next issue.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Wed, Nov 13, 2024 3:56:43 am EST from 135.180.3.149

"Long Way to Morning" I'm actually surprised more television shows don't do this kind of cat-and-mouse style conflicts, they can make for gripping action scenes.

One thing I look back on is that both past and present conflicts are complicated by a bit of emotional compromise, Hudson with his failure with Prince Malcolm and Goliath with Demona. See, Demona wasn't wholly wrong about Hudson's age slowing him down nor the dangers of facing the Archmage with only the three of them and Goliath would make a similar mistake in only taking Hudson. But the difference here is that Hudson learned from his mistakes and came to terms with his limitations, hence in the past he shifted to an advisory role and in the present played defensively until such time when he could match her more evenly.

And there's a nice parallel between the Archmage's (seemingly) death and Demona's defeat. They both lost once they lost their sense of control, the former recklessly trying to impale Goliath and the latter fighting wildly in hand-to-hand and forgetting she was on a deadline. When Greg does action scenes he rarely resolves the conflict with matching force with force, preferring to have his heroes triumph through smarts, solidarity with their friends and good old-fashioned moxie. Really helps the underdog status that most of his heroes have.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Wed, Nov 13, 2024 2:59:22 am EST from 135.180.3.149

CRAIG - Thanks for your comments. I've thought that the same "fortuitous timing" could have applied to "Temptation" as well; I reviewed it just before the latest issue came out, and they both feature Demona and [SPOILER] mind control being used by her - though in different ways. Presumably the next issue will provide more details about the different rules for Demona's mind control spell over Goliath in "Temptation" to the one she's exerting over the humans of Manhattan in this issue. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Nov 12, 2024 10:16:06 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

Todd > Great thoughts on "Long Way to Morning" (and quite a fortuitous pairing of episode with comic book issue!). I particularly like your observation that Demona's behavior in the flashbacks presages her role as "Lady Macbeth."

This is an episode that, for me, defies Greg's theory that the episodes people pick as their favorites tend to be the best-animated ones. While this is definitely one of the worst-looking season 1 episodes (with only "Enter Macbeth" as competition), it's certainly one of my favorites, due to the great script by Brynne Chandler Reaves, the flashbacks, the focus on Hudson, and the terrific voice performances. (One of the interesting things about the two season 1 episodes that weren't animated in Japan is that no director is credited. I'm assuming that Frank Paur acted as unofficial "director" on those two, but was this ever confirmed? Some members of the Japanese studio--such as Kazuyoshi Takeuchi, Hiroshi Ohno, and Takeshi Atomura--are still credited on those episodes, indicating that there was at least some pre-production work done in Tokyo. I'd be curious to know exactly how those episodes came to be, although I guess the time has passed for the podcast to cover that.)

I'm definitely fascinated by CarumboZarumbo's recent post about how the relationship between the humans and gargoyles may have soured from what we see in Dark Ages, and the subsequent discussion that resulted from that comment. The idea that Malcolm may have single-handedly screwed everything up purely out of a misguided attempt to discipline his kid is really interesting, and would be perfectly in character with Gargoyles's approach to demonstrating that actions always have consequences.

I also love those cave carvings, and hope to learn more of them one day. I had always assumed that they were made by the Lost Race (which I pictured as more human-like), although now that we know what the Lost Race is, it's tougher for me to imagine dragons making those images (maybe that's speciest of me, though). One of the glyphs that Demona touches (depicted on the gargwiki) looks suspiciously Egyptian (the snake wearing the crown). I'm guessing that the specific images we see were mostly the whimsy of some background artist in Korea and not necessarily something that Greg or Frank explicitly approved.

Quest #4:

[SPOILER]
One interesting thing to note about Cleopatra's Necklace is that, while all three of its known prior owners led charmed lives on the surface, two of them died by suicide (Cleopatra and Nina Dyer, aka "Princess Aga Khan"). While Catherine the Great died of a stroke, there were rumors of a curse following the Yusupov line who subsequently inherited Catherine's necklace (apparently, the curse stated that no more than one male heir would live past age 26 in each generation, which seems to me a fairly arbitrary and half-hearted curse).
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Tue, Nov 12, 2024 9:47:55 pm EST from 69.118.30.106

Oh, and a couple of other remarks.

[SPOILER] Count me as another person glad to see Gungnir's name now spelled properly.

And about Antoinette's working with Demona: I found myself recalling the Coven Heads and Odalia supporting Emperor Belos in "The Owl House" here as well. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Nov 12, 2024 8:04:30 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

This is a longer-than-normal post, since I've got two reviews.

First, I rewatched "Long Way Till Morning" today. I've long been fond of this episode. It's got more medieval scenes (which I'd enjoyed, as I said), some great development for Hudson, a return from Demona (still menacing as ever), and much atmospheric adventure.

We meet Prince Malcolm, who, despite his good intentions and friendship with Hudson, unwittingly sows the seeds of trouble to come when he tries using the gargoyles as bogeymen to scare his daughter into good behavior. (I've mentioned this before, but that scene reminded me of comments that I've read about why it's a bad idea to tell small children who might be acting up that the police will come and take them away.) And the Archmage - memorably voiced by the late David Warner, who so effectively gave him that arrogance (leading to his return in Season Two).

In the present day, Hudson is looking up silently at the castle from the clock tower just after the gargoyles awaken. He's clearly got his own thoughts about it, though different from Goliath's brooding anger over losing the castle to Xanatos - more meditative.

The episode establishes at once that Demona's attempt to poison Elisa failed, which strikes me as an important touch. Because we know that Elisa's all right, we can give Goliath and Hudson's peril full attention in the events that follow. I wonder whether the audience had forgotten, when Demona brought up that same poison-dart attack at the end and is gloating over how she believes that Elisa has succumbed, what started the adventure - but it's all right for us to forget, in this case.

Brooklyn's still bitter over the events of "Temptation", and Goliath recognizes this and thinks it wiser to bring Hudson along instead. Which indeed proves good judgment. (And he has Broadway escorting Elisa back to her apartment, fitting in the element begun after "Deadly Force" of Broadway being very protective towards her.)

Despite Hudson's fear that he's past it, we see that he's very skilled indeed. We see again a good eye for tracking, for a start. Even more important, Hudson knows how to deal with Demona - not defeat her, but stall her long enough for the sun to rise and save Goliath. (Of course, that strategy won't work after "The Mirror", but nobody knows that - including the original audience.) He handles the situation very well, and Goliath lives as a result. (He also has a really tough sword - capable of cleaving through a statue in one blow.) Demona clearly underestimated him (and did the same back in 984, as well - talking constantly about how Goliath ought to replace him in a way that feels a bit "Lady Macbeth-ish" - appropriate in light of what's to come), and her plan fails as a result.

Demona attempts to bring Hudson over to her side (and fails at that as well), while determined to kill Goliath. This suggests again, as in "Temptation", that she's given up on trying to convert Goliath to her cause after "Awakening", is convinced that he'll never agree with her. His stance in "Awakening Part Five" must indeed have brought that home. Goliath doesn't realize that it's all over between them until "Vows", but I suspect that Demona's realized that much sooner.

We get our first look at the cave near Castle Wyvern, which we'll see more of in "Shadows of the Past" and "Dark Ages: Alliance". The weird designs on the walls still grab me; I wonder who was responsible for them. The ancestors of the Wyvern clan (presumably when they were serving Wyvern)? Picts? (Picts have a knack for getting linked to anything both weird and ancient in Scotland.) Maybe we'll get the answers someday.

Incidentally, this episode focuses so much on Hudson that it's easy to forget that it gives Goliath a few good moments, to demonstrate his own qualities. He recognizes Hudson's worth (in both 984 and the present), and even though badly wounded, still climbs to the roof of the mausoleum and grabs hold of Demona's laser cannon.

(Demona, on the other hand, doesn't seem to have picked up on the importance of waiting during those past thousand years).

And as I mentioned, it's effectively atmospheric - I particularly like Hudson seeing Demona approaching the mausoleum in the distance, and the moment when she emerges from behind that winged statue.

All in all, a very good episode, combining so many of "Gargoyles"' best qualities.

QUOTES.

HUDSON: You mustn't frighten the girl with threats of gargoyles, my liege. We would never harm a child.


HUDSON (to Goliath): Just dreaming old dreams.


BROADWAY: We've got to stop her!

GOLIATH: Yes, but how? We can't lock Demona up here, and I will not even discuss the alternative.

HUDSON: You're our leader, Goliath. As such, you are responsible for all the gargoyles.

GOLIATH: Maybe... maybe I can reach her. At least I have to try.


DEMONA: You can run, but you can't hide. In fact, you can't even run.


DEMONA: Perhaps it's time he stepped down. I've never seen him look so old.

GOLIATH: His age brings wisdom. That's why he leads.


DEMONA: I don't know who's the bigger fool. Him for going, you for following, or me for not leaving you both.


GOLIATH: You can't face her.

HUDSON: Oh, I can face her. I just can't beat her.


DEMONA: I'm smarter, stronger. I'm younger than you! Your pride will cost you your life.

HUDSON: But I know something you don't, something that only comes with age. I know how to wait.


HUDSON: I thought my warrior days were over.

GOLIATH: Nonsense. There are years of fighting left for you.

HUDSON: Now there's something to look forward to.


And to top that, "Gargoyles Quest" %4 arrived in the mail today, and I got to read it as well.

[SPOILER] So now we see Demona unleash her spell, and it's enslaving humans all over Manhattan - including Xanatos, Fox, Owen (who's presumably vulnerable while he's Owen), and Elisa.

I'm curious to see where this leads. Demona's approach towards humanity has always been the reverse of Xanatos towards the gargoyles; where Xanatos "doesn't want to destroy us; he wants to dominate us" (as Goliath pointed out in "The Edge" - and now I've gotten that quote right), Demona wants to wipe the humans out utterly, rather than to rule over them. She did display that sentiment back in medieval times (such as her "They should bow to us!" line in "Awakening Part One"), but by now, all that built-up anger, hatred, and frantically-redirected guilt has changed that goal to getting rid of the humans entirely, rather than subjugating them. And we've seen no evidence that her thoughts on that have changed since "Hunter's Moon". But controlling them will make it easier for her to destroy them - probably mass suicide (which she spoke about in the "Religious Studies 101" radio play, particularly her chilling plans for Elisa - and given how much else this story has drawn from the radio play, I can imagine her planning the same thing here too). Mass suicide would work better than getting them to slaughter each other, certainly - the problem with that approach is that human military technology has reached the point where their fighting each other could make the planet uninhabitable for gargoyles; she wouldn't want them to "go nuclear" literally. (Greg Weisman once said that she was probably hoping, during the two World Wars, that the humans would all kill each other - and then became alarmed after Hiroshima and Nagasaki.)

The bulk of the episode is set during Thanksgiving, making it another holiday that's gotten into "Gargoyles" (which, during its "Disney Afternoon" incarnation, numbered Halloween as the only holiday shown in it - well, unless you count Michaelmas getting mentioned in "Avalon Part One"). This feels almost a bit like influence from "The Spectacular Spider-Man" and "Young Justice", both of which followed the year's cycle and landmark holidays far more so than "Gargoyles" did. Plus we get Elisa discussing the more serious side of it with Goliath and the Mayan gargoyles - and, best of all, a take-off on a very famous (among "Gargoyles" fans) remark of Bill Faggerbakke, for what might be the funniest moment in the whole story. (Though the line goes to Gnash rather than Broadway.)

Jeffrey Robbins shows up at the castle - and while he hears the music, we don't know if he's affected or not. I wonder if we're going for another case of "You have to both see and hear magic for it to affect you" (and once again, the spell-caster being Demona). At any rate, it was great seeing him again. And I was a bit surprised that the Mayan gargoyles are still in Manhattan rather than heading back to Guatemala - but it makes sense that they'd feel needed here.

We also get some good drama with Coldfire (particularly her comment that being in a metal body hinders her old skills), and I look forward to seeing how things go between her and Coldstone, particularly if/when his allegiance gets revealed. I wonder whether that "ur-Othello" play we got a description of in "Dark Ages: Alliance" was foreshadowing....

All in all, a very good and welcome new issue, and I hope we only have to wait one month for the finale this time. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Nov 12, 2024 7:37:07 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

That said, Frank Welker. The only shared cast connection between the Bill & Ted and Back to the Future well franchise. Voiced Satan, the Easter Bunny and Stations in Bogus Journey, as well as Back to the Future The Ride as the voice/growl of the Tyrannosaurus Rex.
Antiyonder
posted @ Tue, Nov 12, 2024 2:39:45 am EST from 68.119.3.1

Nice work on "The Edge", Todd. I actually went and checked on my old review of the episode. I had forgotten that with Tom F. Wilson playing Matt I added a joke with a picture of Matt, smiling and cordial, and put the caption "What are you lookin' at, butthead?" underneath.

This episode really lays out what kind of villain Xanatos would be here, there's the traditional Xanatos Gambit in testing out his armor, working to turn the public against the gargoyles, and stealing back his charitable donation. But there's also a good look into his character too. He's genuinely surprised when Owen manages to best him in their spar and is pretty cold when Owen offers to lose on purpose. It shows that not only is he willing to get his hands dirty and face the heroes on the field of battle, but that he's also not willing to claim victory through luck but triumphing because of his wits, skill, and force of will. He doesn't rest on his laurels nor dwell on his failures, he seeks improvement in victory or defeat and plans in such a way that he can find a victory in all outcomes of his schemes. It's admirable in a way.

As for which book by Dostoyevsky Goliath was reading, "Crime and Punishment" is the most obvious, but I kind of like "The Double" considering Xanatos' armor and the Steel Clan are made to resemble Goliath.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Tue, Nov 12, 2024 1:52:47 am EST from 135.180.3.149

Todd Jensen and well anyone> Makes me think of a favorite old submission and Greg's response to it:

https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=3484

Beautiful.XD
Antiyonder
posted @ Mon, Nov 11, 2024 10:56:39 pm EST from 68.119.3.1

****Blaise walks into the Room. His face seems like it's split in two halves. Not in a gory way, rather more like Two-Face. One side seems fairly happy, the other is...not. Anxiety, depression and anger seem to sit in equal parts on that side.****

Hi everyone. I've read the latest issue, got it the day it came out (I always get the physical copies), but was slow to post both because I usually wait until the weekends when I have time to write, and simply because, well, I've been in a bit of a funk, as many of our U.S.A. commenters seem to be right now (and maybe not just us). I'm not surprised by what happened...I'm a lot of other things, but not surprised. So I'm trying to brace myself and my family and friends as best I can, while being thankful for what blessings I receive.

Speaking of which:
UNEQUIVOCAL SUCCESS> [SPOILER] (Looks like the titles just need “Q” somewhere in them.) Glad to be back here! I debated waiting on reading this issue (while buying it right away, just to be clear) until the fifth issue was out so I wouldn’t be tortured by the cliffhanger I knew was coming. Couldn’t wait that long though (however long it will be)!

We are back with our villainous trio (sorry, Coldstone, but that’s the company you’re keeping now). Demona is kind enough to give her cohorts (and us) a rundown of the three magic items and their capabilities:
* The Necklace of Cleopatra (loved learning the real-world inspiration for this one) which is capable of mind control.
* Gungnir, AKA the Odinspear, AKA the Lance of Fate. Always hits its target. Also seems to hurt Demona to wield it, but she powers through. Ah, the determination of the fanatic...
* And finally the Flute of Puck, another mind influencing item (though it seems to be more focused on Enthrall instead of the Necklace, which probably does something more like Dominate Person). As others have pointed out, if Cleopatra’s Necklace really came from Hathor, and knowing her probable origins, this would indicate that each of these three new Keys to Power has some tie to a member of Oberon’s Children. Could be an important aspect down the road, but first let’s see how many survive the climax...

I love how Coldstone’s first question after Demona flourishes the Flute is if she can actually play the darn thing! Unfortunately for us, Demona is using cheat codes: the Spear and Necklace combined with the Flute allow the thing to play itself and extend its range beyond simple earshot “into the infinite.” Though both Antoinette and Coldstone seem to like the music already.

Then Demona recites what seems to be an incantation, but it’s in English and rhyming (though I almost missed the rhyme of the last verse the first time I read it), so this is definitely more along the lines of Children magic. And, of course, Demona (self-proclaimed champion of her kind) makes sure to put herself above all other gargoyles in her spell. Afterwards, Antoinette gets the green mind-controlled eyes, but they clear pretty quickly and she says she doesn’t feel any different. Demona says that’s because Antoinette is “already loyal and enthralled” to her. I shouldn’t be surprised: I’ve been in this fandom long enough and seen plenty of Demona Apologists. Coldstone, though, just wants to know what happens now (in a word bubble that is missing his usual “white text on black background” format--hopefully it’ll be fixed in the trade), and Demona makes a crack about “giving thanks” because this is all happening on U.S.A. Thanksgiving.
(OK, I know this is 99% likely not the case, but a part of me is wondering if the 2+ month delay in this comic coming out was because someone, somewhere along the production pipeline really, REALLY wanted this issue to come out closer to Thanksgiving.)

At the Eyrie Building, Broadway is preparing to “dunk” the turkey (what’s that prep method again?), with Angela giving him a little gentle teasing for being hungry (which he takes in good humor), while Lex, Gnash (and Alex) are watching footage of the parade earlier that day when the balloon of “Binzy the Polka-Dot Dinosaur” popped. Lex finds that “kinda sad” while Gnash is more annoyed that there are no Gargoyles ballons because, as he says, “We’re better than Binzy!” You cannot see the grin on my face right now, but it is there and it is big. Oh yeah, we old fans all got the joke. Got to say, though, Binzy’s ballon looks a bit more bad ass than Barney ever did. Elsewhere, Hudson is welcoming Jeffrey Robbins to the Castle! This is nice; it’s good to see more of their friends coming to their home. And in the Rookery, Brooklyn and Katana discuss the idea of a “Day of Gratitude” and how much they have to be thankful for. And Brooklyn clasps Egwardo in a method very similar to Hudson back in “Questions.” It’s not exact, the placement of the hand is a bit different, but the overall composition and facial expression is pretty similar.
Yeah, this and Brooklyn’s remark about how the new “rookling..will have the whole clan to raise it” are raising flags. I do not know if Hudson will die (I hope not) or Brooklyn as some have suggested (also hope not and would find that very wasteful). It may be as simple as losing Coldstone (whether to death or banishment) and/or Coldfire; I keep coming back to that “borderline regulars for a while” remark Greg made about them all those years ago. But, yeah, either way it doesn’t feel like the clan is going to make it out of this with the roster they have now.

Up on the parapets, Elisa is discussing the holiday (and all of its unfortunate aspects) with Turquesa and Jade, who have remained in Manhattan all these months to help out with the Demona problem (so two more Castle residents we didn’t see during “Trick-or-Treat”). I love their discussion here and its honesty. I enjoy Thanksgiving, but I can't deny it has problematic origins. I also appreciate the little tidbit about how it’s a “complicated” holiday in Elisa’s household since Diane grew up celebrating it but Peter...“not so much.” However, in more modern (well, 1997) concerns, with no sightings of Demona, the two Mayan gargoyles are wondering if it’s time to move on.

Speaking of looking for Demona, Goliath and Coldfire are out doing just that. Nice to see more of these two together as we know they were close enough siblings for Othello to fall for Iago’s lies, but we haven’t had a lot of opportunity to see that. They are also frustrated with the lack of success in finding Demona, with Goliath noting that they had been close multiple times, but she always escaped just in time. Goliath does suspect she was warned in advance (getting warmer, big guy...) and blames sorcery, of course (colder, arctic). Coldfire has her own frustrations: she used to be a priestess and able to “tune” to the world around her and feels like that could have helped them locate Demona by sensing the power she seeks to wield. However, in her current state (and her calling her body a “cursed metal shell” is very telling) she feels she is not able to. Goliath, ever the biggest cheerleader of his family, says that her heart and soul have remained the same (well, metaphorically for that first one, anyway), and that she is still a gargoyle at her core. Goliath then moves on to lamenting that the rest of the clan seem to have grown complacent in finding Demona, with Brooklyn surprising him the most while also being thankful it means that Brooklyn has “outgrown his obsession.” I’m not surprised myself by Brooklyn not being gung-ho to find Demona (even without the knowledge of her from 2198, 40 years is a long time to hold that intense of a grudge, unless your name is Demona or Macbeth), but I would have figured Angela would want to continue trying to find her. Then again, she is in the midst of young love and that can make fools of everyone.
Coldfire remarks that Brooklyn’s old obsession seems to have passed to Coldstone, who appears to be seeking Demona “night and day.” [sigh] Gargs...you have the clues, put two and two together. I guess it just speaks to how much they love and trust Coldstone that they don’t even consider he could be doing this. Coldfire does admit that this is putting a “distance” in their relationship and Goliath is quick to urge her to work on fixing that, even admitting that, with the benefit of hindsight, there was a distance developing between himself and Angel back in the day but he didn’t acknowledge it in time.
“Yet now there is Elisa.” I love this line and how it shows how accepting and supportive Coldfire is of her brother’s new happiness. She even seems to basically acknowledge Elisa as Goliath’s mate by how I interpret the dialogue. And it is now time for these siblings to go find their mates: Goliath going to Elisa at the precinct house, and Coldfire to...well, first find Coldstone.

Sadly, he’s with Demona and Antoinette as they begin Operation: Domination. Their first victims are the jogger and...Billy and Susan’s dad? I didn’t recognize him right away, but yeah, that’s him. And they’re brothers (I guess that was a bit of canon-in-training I didn’t know or just forgot). Cool! Too bad about that mind control though. I do like the use of the word “Magistra” here (more fancy than just "Master" or "Mistress"). Coldstone definitely seems pleased by this as he smiles for the first time since...has he smiled at all in “Here in Manhattan” or “Quest”? I can’t recall. Too bad it’s a villain’s smile.
Demona is good enough to give us the rundown of how the three Keys are making this possible and how the domination field is now spreading quickly over Manhattan, with it only being “a matter of days” to cover the whole world.

At the old stomping grounds (AKA, the Clock Tower), Goliath and Elisa are snogging (Elisa seems to have picked up that word and Goliath is game enough to adopt it as well). A well-drawn kiss isn’t the only reason they’re meeting up on the Clock Tower, though (love the Castle, but do miss this place, too): they’re comparing notes about their unsuccessful Demona hunts, Matt and crew on Elisa’s side and Xanatos and Owen on Goliath’s. It looks like the G.T.F. is aware of Demona, if the public at large are not. After this quick tryst, Goliath continues his search while Elisa says she’ll see him at the Castle for Broadway’s feast.

Down below, though, Demona and co. mark Goliath’s departure, with Demona noting that she’s “not quite ready for a confrontation” with him. Coldstone gets called away by Coldfire and Demona and Antoinette head into the precinct, with Demona saying how she’s been looking forward to what she’s about to do (poor Elisa).

Before Coldstone arrives at her coordinates, Coldfire decides to follow Goliath’s advice and turns inward to “commune with [her] soul.” I love the imagery on this page, and the good look we get of Desdemona as she was. It seems to work as she takes off for Times Square just as Coldstone arrives and follows her. She lands and pulls a “Fear not” with the crowd, but it’s pointless as they’re already under Demona’s influence (and we get a “Magister” to go along with “Magistra”). Coldfire is taken aback, but Coldstone is smiling in a way that reminds me of how he looked when Iago was controlling the shell. I don’t think he realizes how much he has become like his evil brother.

Demona now visits the Eyrie Building and has put Xanatos, Fox and Owen under her command. She admits she wasn’t sure this would work on Fox, showing that Demona knows of Fox’s parentage. I’m not sure how she learned that, but then again I’m not sure how much information Coldstone was privy to and passed along to her, so...
Of course Demona loves the idea of making Xanatos her servant for real this time!
And she commands Owen to stay Owen forever. She’s definitely adding a lot more of those “in perpetuity” qualifiers to her orders now.

Hudson is showing Robbins the library (and mentions having read “a score” of books) while Lex chats with Amp (guess the computer’s in the library). After a cute exchange in the chat, Robbins notices the music but doesn’t seem otherwise affected so far. I guess regardless of its power this may still be an enchantment that falls under the “see and hear” part of magic.

Goliath returns to the castle where Brooklyn and Katana are waiting to greet him. Goliath looks for Elisa, but she’s already here...and she’s not alone. Yeah, even Robbins could have seen this coming. Elisa was, of course, already captured by Demona, and our cliffhanger is Demona deciding just what to do with this power over her while Goliath watches...

The phrase “Pride goeth before the fall” sticks in my head here. Demona and her team are all so damn smug here that I look forward to seeing how this all comes apart for them. Coldstone, in particular, is in for a wake-up call, I think. Of course, as I said, I don’t see Our Heroes coming out of this unscathed, and that causes me some worry. I also anticipate something like what the ending of TGC episode “To Serve Mankind” *tried* to do: a massive backslide in the Gargoyles’ relations with humans. Goliath will probably still be on the G.T.F. and all that, but public opinion (that fickle beast) will now swing against them and maybe even get Castaway both freedom and fresh recruits. And all thanks to Demona’s actions... [/SPOILER]

Great issue! Hopefully, we’ll only have to wait a month to see how this ends.

Take care out there, everyone.
****Blaise's face settles into one single expression: tired, but hopeful. He then fades from sight.****
Blaise
"There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes."--The Doctor
posted @ Mon, Nov 11, 2024 10:32:14 pm EST from 45.48.46.39

MORRAND - Thanks for your remarks. I've long felt (ever since I first saw it) that the "Human Nature" two-parter felt right for November 11 (partly because of when much of the action is set, partly because of the ending scenes - especially the very last one). And, yes, good points on Castle Wyvern's library - especially Alesand's clearly being well-informed on history and legend, judging from the names she picked for the "quartet". That was something I'd noticed as well and was meaning to bring up.

And, yes, I suspect that Goliath's reading back in the tenth century would have to have been from more secular works than the Psalter. I've wondered what other books (besides the Archmage's book of fables) would have been available for him then. It's tempting to imagine Castle Wyvern having at least a part-manuscript of Virgil's "Aeneid", or even one or two "Old English" manuscripts from England to the south. Goliath's comparing the streets of New York City to the old Roman roads makes me wonder how he'd have responded to "The Ruin" (an old English poem about a Roman city fallen into ruin, described as the work of giants - called something like "entas", incidentally, and which was where Tolkien got the name for his "tree-folk". I've wondered what Goliath would have made of the Ents if he'd ever come across "The Lord of the Rings", incidentally - particularly such features as their being in a similar plight to the Manhattan clan in the early days of the series, as all-males with no offspring to come, thanks to being estranged from the females - of course, the rift with the Entwives was much more greyish than Goliath's troubles with Demona).
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Nov 11, 2024 9:32:45 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

Craig: [SPOILER] Thanks for the geography check. In hindsight, that would have been my guess if I'd really stopped to think about it, and it makes the most sense, but I don't know Manhattan well enough to recognize it. (Somehow I figured Gramercy Park was further uptown.)

I get the notion that the formula for the Keys is like this: the flute is effective at weakening resistance, making it easier for the pearls to come in and overcome the will of the target. Without the flute, or something else to beguile the target, the pearls could not do their job efficiently. I don't suppose there is anything to say the Keys, independently, couldn't overlap somewhat (I mean, there probably were spells in the Grimoirum that would do the same sorts of things as the Eye and the Gate). Or maybe the keys just aren't ripe yet, and in a thousand years they'd have taken on more personality.

I am genuinely hoping that Coldstone has not turned quite that far: that he's stepping in where (as he sees it) his brother is slipping up in defending Manhattan. On the way to checking something else tonight, I did go back and check his appearance in "Clan Building" (in flashback, in Nepal or wherever it was) and he was not badly disposed towards humans there, so unless Demona's been working him over pretty effectively, I don't know what to make of it. He does at least have the seeds of a gargoyle supremacist in his personality, though, and this caper is tailored closely to that; whether through this or otherwise, I'm sure Demona's working that angle with him. [/SPOILER]

Todd Jensen: Good review, and good "Doctor Who" selection, and I wish I'd thought of that myself.

Coincidentally, my instructor had a relevant remark over the weekend, explaining that the manual we work from has no chapter on punching or striking because, in 1409 (when it was written), you, the reader, would have been someone who owned a book, and would therefore be assumed upscale enough to know all the peasant arts like punching (and could therefore focus your reading on more civilized things like judicial duelling). Perhaps Castle Wyvern could have had a better-stocked library than average, if only for the sake of showing off that it was more than just a frontier post (and we do eventually see Alesand in "Dark Ages" being a little more well-informed than one might expect from someone with no kind of access to books, what with her names for her new friends and all). There's going to be at least an inkling of Illu——ti* involvement with Castle Wyvern from the start that could have led to more of a library than typical. And, I sort of doubt that Goliath would have been allowed to learn to read from the Psalter. But it's definitely a good point, and a well-stocked library in 994 would probably be rivaled by even a middle-school library today.

* (I'm trying to avoid a repeat of last week's bot barf.)
morrand - [morrand276 at gmail dot com]
posted @ Mon, Nov 11, 2024 9:14:58 pm EST from 108.69.72.60

Happy Martinmas/Veterans' Day, everybody.

I haven't been able to read "Gargoyles Quest" #4 yet, unfortunately. I did, however, get to rewatch "The Edge" today. (I also rewatched the Doctor Who episode "Human Nature", a custom of mine for November 11 since 2013, which has a bit of relevance for "Gargoyles" since it featured some animated scarecrows and one of the villains being forcibly joined with one of the scarecrows at the end to watch over England in a way that reminded me of Greg Weisman's remark that he'd seen a connection between gargoyles and scarecrows, though he hadn't yet found the right story for it. And it ended with a teaser for the next Doctor Who story, "Blink", which introduced the Weeping Angels - the most gargoyle-ish of the Doctor's major adversaries.)

This episode has several important features. We see the gargoyles settling in at the clock tower, their new home, after a glimpse of it at the end of "Enter Macbeth". We see Xanatos fully back in action - complete with his new gargoyle armor. We get to properly meet Matt Bluestone (whom we'd seen briefly in "Deadly Force"), who now becomes Elisa's partner. We also see Travis Marshall and the Eye of Odin for the first time.

Xanatos shows how he differs from more conventional cartoon villains in his response towards losing a match with Owen. He's concerned, yes, but for a much better reason than said conventional cartoon villains; he fears it might be a sign that he's getting rusty, and deals with it by facing Goliath in his new gargoyle armor and discovering that he can hold his own against him. (He also makes it clear that he doesn't approve of his opponents throwing the match as a form of flattery.)

This time around, our introduction to the gargoyles' quarters in the clock tower struck me as giving the place a weird atmosphere (in a good way), matching the fact that this is the gargoyles' new home. A couple of moments that particularly stood out to me is Broadway at once helping Elisa bring the television set in, and referring to the gargoyles' meal as "breakfast". And it does seem at first a bit strange that they'd be having breakfast in the evening, but it makes sense, given their cycle. One of those things you get used to when you're dealing with a strictly nocturnal species.

As Elisa points out, Goliath does have one consolation, despite losing the castle to Xanatos; he still has access to a library, if a different one - and which certainly looks well-stocked. As I'll comment further when we get to "High Noon", the two modern libraries that Goliath encounters in Manhattan (the one in the castle, and the one adjacent to the clock tower) would seem extremely impressive by the standards of tenth century Scotland; I wouldn't be too surprised if Castle Wyvern's collection of books before the Wyvern Massacre was in single digits - or barely in double digits. (We know of only two books there: the Grimorun Arcanorum, of course, and the Archmage's book of fables which he was using to teach Demona how to read. Goliath obviously didn't have access to the former, and I doubt that the Archmage would have been in a sharing mood with the latter.) And now Goliath has a wealth of books to read through - nearly all of which would have been written while he and the rest of the clan were trapped in stone sleep. (I remember going through a list of great writers that Greg Weisman had drawn up once at "Ask Greg" - Homer, Shakespeare, Cervantes, Jane Austen, Dickens, Thomas Hardy, Hemingway, and Faulkner, if I recall correctly - and noting that Homer was the only one predating the Wyvern Massacre. And even Homer would have probably been new to Goliath; the Iliad and Odyssey weren't available in western Europe during the Middle Ages.) We also see he focuses on the classics: Shakespeare in "Enter Macbeth", Dostoyevsky in this episode. (We don't know specifically which book by Dostoyevsky Goliath was reading; I remember speculating that it was "Crime and Punishment". The most obvious one, I know, given that it's his most famous book, but I was also thinking of Goliath's mood at the time; Xanatos has committed the crime and Goliath wants to deal out the punishment.) Something that tells us there's more to him than just brute strength.

We find out about Matt's belief in the Illuminati (according to Michael Reaves, this was to make it easier for the audience to accept that Matt would be taking the gargoyle sightings seriously) - which, combined with the FBI background we find out about in Season Two and Elisa's claimed scepticism, might have reminded some "Gargoyles" viewers of another television character at around the same time. (Of course, Mulder never came upon Scully secretly harboring a clan of living gargoyles in the attic of the FBI's headquarters.)

Travis Marshall displays a rare talent of being able to actually score one on Xanatos (and seems pleased with the results as Xanatos leaves the museum).

Brooklyn briefly wonders whether the gargoyle-break in at the museum might mean there are other gargoyles out there after all. That hope turns out to be true, but we'll have to wait for Season Two for that to happen.

One of the highlights of this episode is Goliath and Xanatos's confrontation at the castle, which beautifully captures their contrast with each other. (It reminded me a bit of a Norse mythology retelling I wrote a few years ago which included a story about how Thor pays a visit to the Jotun (frost giant) king Utgard-Loki (not to be confused with regular Loki, though some scholars have speculated that they may have started off as the same character and branched off into separate directions), to undergo a series of tests there - all of which he seems to fail at, only to discover at the end that Utgard-Loki was using illusions to hide the true results from Thor; I couldn't resist modeling Utgard-Loki's speech about that on Xanatos's "what my real plan was" speeches (the content was the same as in the original myth, but the speech patterns were written as if Jonathan Frakes as Xanatos was voicing Utgard-Loki). (And I mentioned that while discussing the same episode that first introduced Norse mythology into "Gargoyles" via that Eye.)

And we get a great ending where both Goliath and Xanatos feel that they've won one - and keep us eagerly awaiting further events. Not to mention the big surprise of who that red Steel Clan robot actually was. I know it surprised me, the first time I saw this episode; I thought it simply had advanced artificial intelligence - but instead, it's a suit of armor. And we're in for a reverse version of that surprise just four episodes later.

QUOTES.

ELISA: No offense, I'm sure you're a great cop, but I don't need a partner, and I don't want a partner.

MATT: Hey, I understand. Problem is, you have a partner: me.

ELISA (to Goliath): What are you reading?

GOLIATH: Dostoyevsky.

ELISA: Yeah? Who's it by?


ELISA: What's wrong?

GOLIATH: Xanatos. He stole our ancestral home, drove us into hiding here. And I was unable to prevent it.

ELISA: Hey, look on the bright side. You lost a castle and gained a library.

GOLIATH: This is his century, his world. We are outcasts, strangers in a strange land. We have no hope of regaining what is rightfully ours.

ELISA: You're right. It's a lousy deal. But Xanatos won't stay on top forever. what goes around comes around, Goliath. I wouldn't want his karma.

GOLIATH: If only I could make him feel what I feel now.


MATT: They're called the Illuminati, and the way I hear it, they run everything. Even the President works for them.

ELISA: Look, Matt, you need to know something about me. I don't care about UFOs, Loch Ness, or secret societies. Believe me, the world's strange enough as it is.


GOLIATH: Xanatos, you have gone too far! First you steal our home, and now you steal our very identities!

XANATOS: You've got it all wrong. I'm the best friend you have in this world.


XANATOS: You see, soon everybody in the Big Apple will be hunting gargoyles.

GOLIATH: Because of you!

XANATOS: If you want to be picky, you won't get anywhere.


XANATOS: Doesn't seem like a difficult choice to me. Stay here in the city and be hunted down like animals, or be my guests in a safe haven. What do you say?

{Goliath roars in frustrated fury and demolishes a lamppost before heading up to the battlements where the trio are waiting.}

GOLIATH: Let's go!

XANATOS (calling after the gargoyles as they glide off): You're taking this much too personally!


LEXINGTON: Hey, we're still alive. How come?

BROOKLYN: It's like they're waiting for something.

BROADWAY: But why? Why not just kill us?

GOLIATH: Because Xanatos doesn't want to kill us. He wants to dominate us.


TRAVIS MARSHALL: Looks like that urban myth about gargoyles just became urban reality.


BROADWAY: We could tackle them again.

BROOKLYN: Yeah, I'm really looking forward to that.


GOLIATH: Xanatos tried to force us to reveal our new home. We defeated him. And if we did it once, we can do it again.

ELISA: And we will. Together.


OWEN: It would appear that your plan to learn the gargoyles' new hiding-place has gone awry, sir.

XANATOS: Not really. I have the Eye of Odin back in my private collection, and the city owes me a favor for donating it. I successfully tested this prototype battle exoframe. And the most important thing....

OWEN: Yes, sir?

XANATOS: I was a little worried that I might be getting soft. But I was able to stand up against Goliath, the greatest warrior alive. I'd say I've still got the edge.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Nov 11, 2024 8:08:43 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

Still waiting on the Kindle release...Anyway.

Karrin> "Coldhearted" was one of the best character-focused episodes of season 1, maybe in the whole series. I always liked how the episode showcased Wally's teenage immaturity with his genuine heroic nature. Plus, him saving the day not by being the fastest man alive but through a combination of wit, determination and his big mouth speaks to the underdog theme the show has always carried with its heroes.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Mon, Nov 11, 2024 7:29:11 pm EST from 135.180.3.149

Spoilers for Quest #4

[SPOILER]
This is the first issue of the Dynamite comics where my initial reading has been a physical copy as opposed to digital. Ah, it takes me back, actually turning the pages as I experience the story, as opposed to swiping left. That being said, I do hope that if Dynamite intends to release the digital issues a week after the physical going forward, they make that clear, so that people can plan accordingly.

Completely pedantic/nerdy observation: the price is again printed on the cover, after being absent for the first three issues of Quest. Wonder what the deal is with that.

Even though the plot gets into full swing here, this issue feels oddly less eventful than the prior two. I don't mean that in a bad way; quite the opposite, in fact. But it feels like, with Demona essentially having accomplished her goal in the first few pages, the focus shifts to being more on the characters as opposed to story momentum. Which makes for a good, moody issue.

The trend of "titles that have the letter 'Q' somewhere in them" continues. And Demona speaks the title on the very first page.

And, for the record, we have a new colorist this issue. Welcome to Arianna Stefani, who does a nice job. (Although I feel that Goliath's purple hue is getting far too dark in these last couple of issues.)

I note that "Gungnir" is now spelled correctly. Hopefully the prior issues are corrected in the eventual trade.

"The pain brings focus" could be Demona's mantra, or creed, or something. Perfectly sums up her single-mindedness and masochism. The lady needs to get into yoga or something.

It seems like Demona's plan has a pretty huge fatal flaw, when she says that humans will obey ANY gargoyle they meet (even if she does give herself a slight edge by making herself "elite" among gargoyles). I may be wrong, but it seems to me that once again, Demona's short-sighted hatred blinds her. As usual, she seems to be assuming that once the human "threat" is eliminated, the other gargoyles will just fall in line. It doesn't occur to her that there are a lot of other gargoyles around who LIKE humans...

The powers of the necklace and the flute are a bit too similar for my tastes, but it's a minor quibble. As of now, these new talismans aren't quite as interesting on their individual merits as the original three. But the combined effect is certainly very cool, and nicely realized visually by Qualano.

I've been a big fan of Antoinette so far, but I do hope she doesn't end up being just Demona's lackey. I'm very curious what's going on with her. As Matt already noted, her blind devotion to a narcissist who clearly doesn't have Antoinette's best interests at heart feels...uncomfortably recognizable, in light of recent events.

For those who aren't aware, the 1997 Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade did indeed have several balloon malfunctions due to gale-force winds, including, yes, Barney the Dinosaur hitting a lamppost and "attacking" the crowd: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Macy%27s_Thanksgiving_Day_Parade

Very cool to see Robbins (and Gilly) welcomed as part of the family.

The little scene with Elisa and the Mayans is really lovely. It's great to get some more insight into her family's dynamics.

And as someone who feels that Coldfire has been severely underutilized in the present-day story since joining the clan, I was VERY happy with the spotlight on her here, building on the development given to her in Dark Ages. The dichotomy between her inherent spirituality and the artificial, mechanical nature of her current existence is really fascinating.

There's something delightfully goofy in a "Silver Age DC" kind of way about Demona walking around with a trail of musical notes following her. I especially like the panel where she is literally playing her own "elevator music." The photo-negative effect in the visuals is very cool and creepy, and counter-balances the silliness of the musical notes.

We get another map of Manhattan, but unlike the one in "Cold Comfort" which looked like it was a screen-shot off Google Maps, this one looks like it was actually drawn by Qualano (and is a tad geographically wonky). To address morrand's query: I believe the idea is that Demona's reign of terror is starting near Gramercy Park, where her house is.

As others have noted, Coldstone's smile throughout this issue is genuinely creepy. I never viewed him as truly villainous, just extremely misguided...but I'm starting to rethink that.

The meetup at the clock tower is really lovely. It's nice when these comics can slow down and just spend time with the characters. That nearly-full-page splash panel of the two "snogging" is just gorgeous; I'd love to frame it on my wall. Qualano REALLY draws Elisa extremely well, and very expressively. And Stefani's coloring of the starscape behind them sets a terrific mood.

Interesting that Robbins is seemingly immune to the magic once again. Does the rule about having to both see and hear the spell apply here, given that people who can't see Demona are still enthralled (she says the spell is spreading around the world)?
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Mon, Nov 11, 2024 5:31:12 pm EST from 69.118.30.106

Happy birthday to Wally West! He'd be turning 30 this year.
Karrin Blue
posted @ Mon, Nov 11, 2024 8:53:31 am EST from 72.10.127.194

Greg: Awesome - thanks for clarifying!
Ed
posted @ Mon, Nov 11, 2024 8:03:19 am EST from 81.158.122.172

ED> [SPOILER] "- I'm assuming the jogger's friend isn't his literal brother but I wonder who he is."

That's William Greene, Billy and Susan's father. Greg Weisman revealed at a Gathering that he is the Jogger's brother. Now it's official. [/SPOILER]
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Mon, Nov 11, 2024 7:31:45 am EST from 67.189.200.184

QUEST #4

[SPOILER] Finally had time to pop to the comic shop. After all this time, it's kind of weird that the comic coincides fairly well with the Thanksgiving holiday.

- The history of the three new keys is interesting. I'm still intrigued about what makes them specifically "keys to power". The "nature abhors a vacuum" concept suggests that they only became keys after the previous keys were destroyed but the logic here suggests that the combination of these three innately guarantees power and that would have been true before the other three were destroyed. But then, from a different point of view, the Phoenix Gate exists outside the timeline and so it had always been destroyed meaning there was always another set of keys...

- Better than Binzy! Ha.

- It appears that Antoinette's dedication to Demona is genuine (and seemingly quite intimate).

- A nice exposition of the "complicated" nature of Thanksgiving.

- The possibility that Coldfire might be able to return to her magical roots more is interesting. Her confrontation with Coldstone next issue is going to be very interesting - he didn't look like he was in a mood to continue dissembling.

- I'm assuming the jogger's friend isn't his literal brother but I wonder who he is.

- The Gargoyle-Magister/Magitra thing feels like a reuse of the very original pitch material of Goliath the Gargoyle-Master.

- It always ups the stakes when Xanatos and company are affected by these magical ruses.

- Good for Hudson reading scores of books.

- Of course the cliffhanger had to be Elisa!

Not a lot to say on this one - it's a great issue and all momentum. I can't believe it's been nearly 18 months since Demona's return... very intrigued to see how this finale goes. [/SPOILER]

In separate spoiler tags as it's spoiler-spec for #5:

[SPOILER] If Demona were to use the Keys to Power on Goliath, he has an existing enchantment to live the rest of his life as if he were not under a spell. I wonder if this will come into play and protect him. [/SPOILER]
Ed
posted @ Mon, Nov 11, 2024 6:00:32 am EST from 81.158.122.172

So 1 fun (rhyme was accidental) detail in relation to [SPOILER] Binzy [/SPOILER] is a note or reminder that [SPOILER] Ed Asner voiced the true/evil voice of Georgie on the Dinosaurs episode "Georgie Must Die" [/SPOILER].
Antiyonder
posted @ Mon, Nov 11, 2024 2:49:01 am EST from 68.119.3.1