Hmm. Still Canon in training, but the timeline shows that Xanatos was inducted into The Illuminati after Metamorphosis and before Legion.

Originally Greg suggested it was back as far as Awakening Part Two:

https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=8157

No problem, just wondered if anyone else picked up on that.
Antiyonder
posted @ Sat, Nov 30, 2024 6:35:34 pm EST from 68.119.3.1

Thanks Todd, I knew what the theme was going to be for some time but I wasn't sure how the flow of the poem was going to be like until I listened to the Allman Brothers song "Midnight Rider."

The big reason I know anything about St. Andrew is because his cross is used in my denomination's logo.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sat, Nov 30, 2024 6:31:26 pm EST from 135.180.3.149

Happy St. Andrew's Day, everyone! St. Andrew is the patron saint of Scotland, which makes a mention of that day appropriate (even almost a necessity) for a comment room dedicated to a series that has made such use of Scotland (and St. Andrew even got mentioned in "Dark Ages: Alliance", in the adaptation of "God for Harry, England, and St. George!")

JURGAN - Thanks for mentioning the "Time Machine" series of books. I remember many of them, including the pirates one and its time loop.

MATTHEW - Thanks, also, for your latest poem.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Nov 30, 2024 7:41:01 am EST from 68.99.93.213

Last day of the month which means one section of my monthly poem, "A Year on the Streets." I promise you that the end will not be so depressing.

November

Work’s dried up, factory’s closin’,
But things work out, take it in stride,
And I don’t need your damned charity,
I’ve still got my strength; I’ve still got my pride.

Eviction notice, landlord’s glaring,
And my feelings I don’t bother to hide,
And I don’t need this stinkin’ rathole,
Shoot him a gesture; I’ve still got my pride.

Don’t need your roof and don’t need no shelter,
I’ve still got gas in my ride,
Hit the road, leave your condescension,
Leave you and this place alone; I’ve still got my pride.

Now I’m wrecked, alone, and jobless,
“Damn this world,” I pled and cried.
And I’d do anything to keep on breathin’,
Stick it on my gravestone, “Here I am, killed by pride.”
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sat, Nov 30, 2024 3:42:26 am EST from 135.180.3.149

My first exposure to the "stable time loop" paradox was from a book in the "Time Machine" series, a series of kids' books in the "Choose Your Own Adventure" style (CYOA is a brand name, but it's how most people know that type of book). In one, you go back in time to the age of pirates, a stranger immediately starts talking to you like you've met, and then later you go back further and introduce yourself to him. The only real time travel story I knew before that was Back to the Future, so this kind of threw me for a loop.

Incidentally, the Time Machine book set in samurai time was written partly by Michael Reaves: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Machine_(novel_series)
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Nov 30, 2024 12:37:25 am EST from 75.233.132.31

I was rereading "Gargoyles Quest #4" last evening [SPOILER] and noticed Demona talking about "harvesting" the human race on the first page. It threw new light on why her putting her plan into action was set on Thanksgiving. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Nov 29, 2024 8:14:36 am EST from 68.99.93.213

CRAIG - It was the first of a series, too, though I never got around to reading the other books in it. "So You Want to be a Wizard" featured a visit to a creepy alternate New York with such horrors as carnivorous fire hydrants.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Nov 28, 2024 8:00:42 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

Or basically Petros had the Xanatos Tag of the episode.
Antiyonder
posted @ Thu, Nov 28, 2024 7:29:53 pm EST from 68.119.3.1

I read a comment on Petros recently, remarking (with some admiration) about how even after discovering that living gargoyles, time travel, and the Illuminati Society are all real, and even experiencing a visit to early medieval Scotland, he still tells off Xanatos for his ways at the end in a very calm and level-toned manner.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Nov 28, 2024 7:21:46 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure was actually my first time at seeing that kind of paradox.

Heck, Rufus never tells the duo his name, but they learn it from their future selves who learned about it from their future selves.
Antiyonder
posted @ Thu, Nov 28, 2024 6:31:52 pm EST from 68.119.3.1

A happy Thanksgiving to you all!

I don't have much to say about "Vows" besides the fact that changing the past via time travel isn't possible in this series, though we'll see later on that the rules can be bent in a way. One bit I really like about this one is Petros and his constant grumpiness towards Xanatos and his schemes. His general dismal of all the weird things going on is just hilarious at times.

Still, I'd like to see more about their relationship and maybe get some look on its deterioration. Perhaps if we get another crack at another Time Dancer arc.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Thu, Nov 28, 2024 5:18:43 pm EST from 135.180.3.149

Happ Thanksgiving to everyone here.
Antiyonder
posted @ Thu, Nov 28, 2024 5:16:49 pm EST from 68.119.3.1

PAUL - Scotland and France engaged in a fair amount of diplomacy (the Auld Alliance I mentioned in my review)) during the Middle Ages and all the way down to the 16th century (the Protestant Reformation put a stop to it, since Scotland went Protestant and France stayed Catholic). And even before the Norman Conquest, Normandy was a prominent French dukedom. Not long afterwards in actual history, another daughter of the Norman duke married the English king Ethelred the Unready. It was simply negotiating with a land on the Continent rather than elsewhere in the British Isles.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Nov 28, 2024 2:14:40 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

It may just be that the quotation of Goliath's "inspirational" below ("Do not wait or look for this catastrophe. ...") is catching me in the gut, but today I want to extend thanks to the people here for being here and for keeping this whole thing going. It's awesome and I'm grateful for it.

For those in the States, happy Thanksgiving; for those outside, also happy Thanksgiving (you can have that even without celebrating, perhaps especially without celebrating).
morrand - [morrand276 at gmail dot com]
posted @ Thu, Nov 28, 2024 2:00:00 pm EST from 108.69.72.60

I always found it odd that the Normans would send an ambassador to Scotland 91 years before they conquered England.
Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Thu, Nov 28, 2024 12:08:02 pm EST from 73.210.12.31

Happy Thanksgiving to those here who celebrate it! I hope [SPOILER] you get through the day without being mind-controlled by a genocidal gargoyle. And if it happens, be thankful that this fandom has come up with a variety of strategies to free yourself! [/SPOILER]
Matt
"Human problems become gargoyle problems..."
posted @ Thu, Nov 28, 2024 9:32:54 am EST from 47.233.90.133

Todd > I'll have to keep an eye out for that one. My understanding from an interview I read with Brynne Chandler is that Diane Duane and Peter Morwood were good friends of the Reaveses at the time, as was Lydia Marano. And of course, Steve Perry was a frequent collaborator with Michael Reaves. So the writing of the show really was sort of an "extended family" type affair.
Craig
posted @ Thu, Nov 28, 2024 9:01:38 am EST from 69.118.30.106

CRAIG - Yes, good point. I'll bring up more about Demona's not knowing the whole story about what happened immediately after the Wyvern Massacre when I get to "City of Stone" next week. (And it'd be interesting to find out what Demona's response would be if she found out that Goliath *begged* to be turned to stone - I have a vision of her denouncing him as a coward, conveniently overlooking the fact, naturally, that she'd simply fled once she realized that the plan was going to backfire, saving only herself.)

Incidentally, your mention of Diane Duane reminded me of the fact that I'd become acquainted with her even before "Gargoyles" came out; some years before, I'd read "So You Want to be a Wizard" by her, and quite liked it.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Nov 28, 2024 8:46:14 am EST from 68.99.93.213

Todd > Good thoughts as always, on one of my favorite episodes ever (this is another one that succeeds in spite of not having the series' strongest animation, due to terrific plotting, writing, and voice acting). Writer Shari Goodhartz is one of the few people to have written episodes of both Gargoyles and Star Trek: The Next Generation (along with Michael Reaves and Diane Duane). And I'm sure we all remember the production memo on this one, where Greg basically squashed the entire original planned story into Act 1 and created all the time travel material, so the success of this episode perhaps owes even more to Greg's powers of invention than the typical episode.

One thing to note in what you said: you imply that Demona-1995 misleads her past self about how/why Goliath was turned to stone. But would Demona herself be aware that Goliath asked to be turned to stone? It's possible that he mentioned this to her, but they had so little time together in "Awakening" before things soured, and there was so much going on, I'm not sure that they ever had an in-depth conversation of that sort.

Happy Thanksgiving to those who observe!
Craig
posted @ Thu, Nov 28, 2024 8:39:30 am EST from 69.118.30.106

Sorry for the triple post, but I rewatched "Vows" yesterday. I intended to post my comments on it last evening, but something had gone wrong with the code, so I had to wait until this morning (fortunately, I saved it for when the code was functioning again).


Another big episode, which introduced the Phoenix Gate and time travel into the series, plus showing Xanatos and Fox getting married, and, by contrast, making it clear that Goliath and Demona would never be together again, that the rift between them was permanent.

"Vows" continued what "Eye of the Beholder" did in adding more depth to Xanatos. Now we learn his background, meet his father Petros, and see the tensions between father and son. Petros has stronger morals than Xanatos, but is clearly just as tough as he is - ready to speak his thoughts to his son (not to mention showing some good fighting skills himself in the battle with the bandits). He even manages to get a sort of one-up over Xanatos at the end.

And we see how Xanatos used the time loop to ensure his own wealth (and, as I mentioned once before, becoming the second Disney multi-millionaire to build his fortune on a small coin obtained in Scotland - except Xanatos sold his coin, rather than keeping it).

As for Demona, we get a glimpse into her past, such as her apprenticeship with the Archmage (we saw it end here; in "Dark Ages: Alliance", we saw how it began), and a hint of one major step towards the dark path she took. It's been brought up that Demona-1995 told her younger self that the "humans" were responsible for the deaths of the clan, without specifying which humans. I've seen it speculated - and think it's a likely possibility - that Demona misinterpreted the "humans" as being the ones living in Castle Wyvern - and probably came to believe this all the more as she saw their attitude towards the gargoyles worsen. It makes one wonder whether the horrifying thought struck her, that fateful night in 994, that the Vikings whom she and the Captain had agreed to let in were also humans.... (Demona-1995 also conveniently left out that Goliath asked to be turned to stone, making it look as if it was an attack upon him.)

Hudson gets a small but important role here, as he helps out the time traveling Goliath (and does a good job confronting the Archmage, too - almost a foreshadowing of their encounter in "Long Way Till Morning"). And the way he acts at the clock tower - I suspect he's realizing that this is the moment that the future Goliath told him about, and thus makes no effort to stop Goliath from going to the wedding.

Now that we know that gargoyle commitment ceremonies include seconds, it seems that the roles of best man and maid of honor didn't appear quite so foreign to Goliath and Demona.

We're also introduced to Judge Roebling, who'll play a major role at Goliath's hearing. And we find out that the Illuminati actually do exist (in the Gargoyles Universe) - the first time I saw this episode, I thought it almost a pity that Matt wasn't at the wedding - and get a few hints about them (including that they were already around by 975, and are well enough organized to carry out Xanatos's instructions a thousand years later - it helps, of course, to have the Society run by a couple of immortals who go back to King Arthur's reign).

I also liked the touch of Goliath letting slip Hudson and Demona's names while in 975, to Hudson's understandable bewilderment; neither of those names exist back then. I wonder if even Goliath hadn't been named yet then.

Princess Elena is apparently from Normandy; "Princess" would have been an exaggeration for her title, since Normandy was a duchy rather than a kingdom - though the Norman dukes did display enough independence from the French kings that they might have gotten away with assuming such titles for their daughters. (And, of course, just ninety-one years after the wedding, the current Norman duke *would* become a king, following the Battle of Hastings.) It also seems like an early example of the Auld Alliance (like Lord Valois working for Culen in "Dark Ages: Alliance").

I still think it a pity that both the DVD version (which I viewed) and the Disney+ version used the incorrect ending; the videorecording I made of "Vows" back in 1997 (and no longer have, alas) was a treasure for that reason.

Another fine episode, with a semi-tragic ending for Goliath. (Eased a bit, I suspect, by the fact that there's another love for him - though that one has its own obstacles, to provide much drama to come.)

FAVORITE LINES.


XANATOS: It's so unlike you to attack first. I simply invited you here to talk.

GOLIATH: Our previous encounters have not encouraged me to trust you.


PETROS: Why do you need all this?

XANATOS: Oh, reason not the need, father. I wanted it, so I took it.


OWEN: Will Goliath actually show up?

XANATOS: Oh, he'll be here. I'll bet my future on it.


GOLIATH: Exchanging tokens to seal their pledge of love. A strange custom, but fitting.

DEMONA (after breaking the Phoenix Gate in half): Take this token of my love. Cherish it always, as I will cherish my half. Upon this, I pledge my heart to you forever.

GOLIATH: I accept your token, my... angel of the night, and vow that you and I are one, now and forever.


OWEN: It seems the honeymoon has begun earlier than expected.


PETROS: Where are we?

XANATOS: The question isn't 'where', pop, but 'when'.


PETROS: All right, Mr. Big Shot Time Traveler, you sent off your little letter without answering one important question. How do we get home?


DEMONA-1995: This is your future. See the destruction. The death of our kind surrounds us. Your one true love is frozen in stone at night. The humans did this, and you can stop it! You hold the power in your hand. To use the Phoenix Gate, you have but to think of a place and time. Speak the incantation, and you will be transported there. With it, you can accomplish anything! Do not give it to the Archmage. Do not share it with - do not share it! Use it! Destroy the humans. Rule the gargoyles. Rule the world! It's all within your grasp!

{Goliath groans. Demona-975 looks at him in concern.

DEMONA-1995: Believe me, I know how you feel. But you cannot trust him. He's weak. He cares more for the humans than for our clan. The greatest favor you can do him is put him out of our misery forever. You must know I'm right. Can't you see I am what you will become?

DEMONA-975: I will never be like you!

{The two Demonas fight.}

DEMONA-1995: I do not wish to hurt you.

DEMONA-975: And I do not wish to be you!


GOLIATH: Are you injured?

DEMONA-975: You... the others... all gone. What am I to do?

GOLIATH: Do nothing.

DEMONA-975: Nothing?

GOLIATH: Do not worry. Do not wait or look for this catastrophe. Live in the moment. Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart. Fortify yourself with love and trust, and you need not fear this future. But most of all, fulfill the vows of love you make, for they can surely save you.

DEMONA-975: I shall. You have my oath.

GOLIATH: I had hers once, too.


XANATOS: I think we've found our ticket home.

GOLIATH: If I didn't fear the damage you would do to the time-stream, I'd gladly leave you here.

XANATOS: But you won't, because you didn't. Time travel's funny that way.


DEMONA: Get away from me, you sentimental fool. You may have prevented me from altering the past, but you failed too. You see, I have clear memories of your little inspirational about keeping my vows of love. I never forgot it. And it changed nothing. Clearly history is immutable.

GOLIATH: More's the pity.


XANATOS: Well, pop, did you have a good time at the wedding?

{Petros tosses him a small coin.}

XANATOS: What's this?

PETROS: A simple American penny. It's not worth much now, but in a thousand years, who knows? It's my wedding present to you, because it's all you seem to care about.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Nov 28, 2024 7:58:27 am EST from 68.99.93.213

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone! [SPOILER] And the first Thanksgiving since it got mentioned in "Gargoyles". [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Nov 28, 2024 7:35:36 am EST from 68.99.93.213

Thanks for the comments, Matthew, and a good analysis of the episode.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Nov 27, 2024 7:49:23 am EST from 68.99.93.213

Time for the obligatory Halloween episode.

This is another case where Frank Welker wasn't credited but was still giving his A-game with the hellish Werefox noises. This episode fascinates me in the context of where the story is at the moment. Right now Xanatos is at the top of his game, he worked to get the mutates to trust in him, he's got the Eye of Odin back in his possession and the company of a beautiful woman who's as dangerous as she is cunning. So it's only natural that he get knocked down a peg by several factors he didn't foresee and therefore couldn't plan around.

For starters there's the fact that the amulet was magical, and the kind of magic you want to exercise caution with. Then there's the fact that Elisa and Goliath would get wise to his tricks and leave his manipulations in the breeze. And finally, there's the fact that a genius, billionaire innovator with some super villain, dare I say sociopathic, tendencies would fall in love to the point that he couldn't spin things like care for someone else or appreciation for when help is given from an adversary.

And this also brings up Elisa and Goliath. The former has every right to spite Xanatos for what happened to Derek, and the latter is still in his contrarian position towards Xanatos in a "Whatever he's for, I'm against." And while they do get to rub that in his face, ultimately their better nature means they have to help even if that means helping their worst enemy. Unlike Derek, the Werefox is a danger to everyone with her base, savage instincts and deep-seated self-loathing, and Elisa is very much the cop who believes in "Protect and Serve." And for Goliath, he made it clear in the last finale that he and his kind would protect more than just their home and that means having to help not just the would-be victims of the Werefox, but the original victim herself.

When I got to meet Zehra at the Gathering, she made a point about her character Livewire's relationship with Heat Wave and her actions in My Adventures with Superman's second season. Reasoning that her relationship means she can't go back to the murderous villain she once was because she developed feelings and empathy for someone else. That someone else is another thief and mercenary but that's beside the point. That feels like a similar case here; Fox and Xanatos certainly aren't heroes at the moment, but this is the point where the ground has been laid for becoming more nuanced people.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Wed, Nov 27, 2024 7:12:09 am EST from 135.180.3.149

Rewatched "Eye of the Beholder" today. It feels a bit odd to be watching it almost a month after Halloween, and just two days before Thanksgiving. (Though I'd have had to do a lot of bingeing if I'd started rewatching "Gargoyles" on October 24 to reach "Eye of the Beholder" by Halloween without skipping ahead.)

This is the first Halloween episode of "Gargoyles". For a long time, Halloween was the only holiday to feature in "Gargoyles" - not surprising, since it was the one human holiday that the gargoyles would have been seriously interested in observing (for obvious reasons). (By contrast, "The Spectacular Spider-Man" and "Young Justice" did make a lot of use of holidays and other landmarks of the year, thanks to both series being more human-centered.) [SPOILER] Of course, we've now just seen the gargoyles celebrating Thanksgiving - or getting ready to celebrate it until Demona interrupts it. I don't know if we'll see other holidays turning up in the Dynamite comics to come. While I don't seriously imagine the gargoyles celebrating Christmas, I do have a vision of the trio and Gnash singing "Jingle Bells", only using the parody lyrics that poke fun at a certain rival nocturnal urban crime-fighter. [/SPOILER]

And we establish the pattern for how the gargoyles celebrate Halloween. The trio don costumes. So does Elisa. Goliath doesn't; he allows his gargoyle appearance to be costume enough, and I think it's the right approach for him. (I remember a picture of Goliath and Elisa riding the subway in the series pitch when they showed it at the 2001 Gathering, which portrayed Goliath wearing a lot of old clothing to hide the fact that he was a gargoyle. It was funny, but I don't think it would have felt right for the actual series itself, and I'm glad they didn't use it.) The same thing will be the case in the next two Halloweens, with a few modifications (Angela joining the group and wearing a costume as well for the 1996 Halloween, and Gnash also donning a costume - and going trick-or-treating - while Brooklyn no longer bothers with costumes - or rather, offers his justification for not wearing one).

And we get Goliath and Elisa's "Beauty and the Beast" moment, a lovely scene. Despite Elisa's caution about approaching Goliath over their feelings for each other, she has no problem dancing with him here, probably thanks to it being just a block party. The trio are clearly delighted with it as well (not to mention the audience).

Broadway repeats the trenchcoat and fedora from "The Silver Falcon" - just one episode earlier - for the hard-boiled detective look again. This time, he's wearing a collared shirt and necktie as well (I can't recall his wearing them in "The Silver Falcon"). The new costume doesn't run into as much trouble as the old, apart from his chewing on the fedora when he gets worried about Goliath and Elisa's safety. Lexington's wearing an old-fashioned pilot uniform, from the time of Charles Lindbergh and Amelia Earhart; I suspect that's a callback to his interest in flying aircraft in "Her Brother's Keeper". And Brooklyn dresses up as a pirate - and wears his costume eyepatch over the same eye that he'll be wearing for real when he returns from his Timedancing. (I wonder whether the production team had already thought ahead to those "Timedancer" plans when they were designing Brooklyn's costume.) brooklyn, of course, doesn't know at the time that he'll wind up meeting pirates for real during his Timedancing, including Blackbeard (and the whole "Blackbeard was a gargoyle" business that Gnash will be sharing, just two Halloweens later, seems like another "Ben Grimm/the Thing" hommage).

Of course, the serious part of the episode is the story about Fox getting turned into a werefox through the Eye of Odin, establishing many elements. First, the Eye returns, and is revealed to be magical. Even more importantly, Xanatos and Fox get engaged, and while they treat it all as like a business alliance at the time, we soon see that, beneath his calmly amoral and "prepared for just about everything" exterior, Xanatos really cares about her, and is in the end, far more concerned with saving Fox's life than recovering the Eye of Odin. He even has to come straight out and ask Goliath for help, rather than just manipulate him. (It doesn't help, either, that Elisa is still bitter over Derek being turned into a Mutate. Xanatos, as we mentioned in the discussion of "Metamorphosis", managed to dodge most of the consequences for that act, but this episode comes close to being an exception.) And it leads to a great ending.

We also have a bit of fun with the "Plan B" concept - this is probably the farthest that anyone's gotten down the alphabet for plans, whether in animated television or anywhere else. Even Goliath makes a quip about it, which is something you don't often see him doing.

Brendan and Margot make their first return appearance after "Awakening Part Three" - and are treated to their car getting jumped on by both Werefox and Goliath while they stare in shock at the spectacle.

A fine Halloween episode, in short - and a lot more romantic than Halloween stories usually are.


FAVORITE LINES.

XANATOS: Marry me.

FOX: Are you serious?

XANATOS: We're genetically compatible, highly intelligent, and have the same goals. It makes perfect sense to get married.

FOX: True, but what about love?

XANATOS: I think we love each other, as much as two people like ourselves are capable of that emotion.


ELISA: Every night's trick or treat in the Big Apple.


LEXINGTON: Oh, Halloween! tonight is the night!

BROOKLYN: I can hardly wait. We can walk the streets, and nobody will know who we are.

BROADWAY: Better yet, no one will know what we are.


GOLIATH: Oh, you could have been hurt. I should have been with you.

ELISA: But you can't, any more than I can be here guarding you all day long. Everyone's vulnerable, Goliath. But it helps to know someone cares.


XANATOS: Incredible. If I'd known the Eye of Odin had that kind of power, I'd never have just given it away. Well, spilled milk. Let's move on to Plan B.

{But we see him with a worried expression on his face as he turns away.}


ELISA: You're going nowhere, Xanatos.

XANATOS: Sorry. Business. You understand.


OWEN: It would appear that Plan B has not been entirely successful.

XANATOS: True, but now Plan C is in place. Goliath and Company are, as usual, determined to thwart me. They'll pull out all the stops to get the Eye from Fox before I do. They'll do all my work for me.

OWEN: I fail to see how it will be any easier to get the Eye from the gargoyles than from Fox.

GOLIATH: Your manipulations have failed, Xanatos. I don't suppose you have a Plan D?


GOLIATH: Even if what you say is true, why should I help her?

XANATOS: Because you know what it means to lose someone you love.

ELISA: Don't even think about it, Goliath. Can't you see? This *is* his Plan D. If it fails, he'll move on to E or F.

GOLIATH: A noble effort, Xanatos. But another failure. Not a good night for you.


HALLOWEENER #1 (spotting the trio): Check it out! A costume over a costume!


ELISA (to Goliath): Come on. I've wanted to stroll down a city street with you for a long time.


LEXINGTON (as the trio watch Goliath and Elisa have their "Beauty and the Beast" dance): They should have Halloween more often.

BROOKLYN: Yeah.


GOLIATH: And if Xanatos speaks the truth, if someone like him can love, perhaps there still is hope for this world.

ELISA: You're gonna help him, aren't you?

GOLIATH: Yes.

XANATOS (emerging from the shadows): Good.

ELISA: How did you find us?

XANATOS (plucking another bug off Goliath): Old habits die hard.


XANATOS: So now you know my love.

GOLIATH: Only you would regard love as a weakness.


OWEN: Actually, Mr. Xanatos, I believe he's right. You've never looked more heroic.

XANATOS: A momentary lapse, I assure you.



XANATOS (to Fox): Goliath had the right idea. Let's go home.

{Owen silently watches them with a smile.}
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Nov 26, 2024 7:56:32 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

Also Broadway's appearance in the trenchant was a reference to the Fantastic Four's Ben Grimm/The Thing who would go out in one that is also large.

Todd Jensen> 1. Used VCRs often in the early 2010s and still have one. And barring having a recording of Deadly Force from it's original airings, the home video release was the only another way prior to the DVD and temporarily Disney Plus to catch it.

"One moment in this episode that rewards repeat viewings: when "Benton" refers to the "DD" in the old photograph of Mace Malone as a "sharp-looking young fellow". He just couldn't resist complimenting himself."

Though as a reminder, Benton was originally going to just be a CPA as presented, only for it to be decided that he is Dominic.
Antiyonder
posted @ Tue, Nov 26, 2024 1:16:28 am EST from 68.119.3.1

And Broadway quoted the "stuff that dreams are made of" in "Broadway Goes to Hollywood" - a "Goliath Chronicles" episode, of course, so it doesn't count - but it was also written by Cary Bates (who wrote "The Silver Falcon").
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Nov 25, 2024 10:58:30 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

Heavy. What is it?
The, uh, stuff that dreams are made of.

Amusingly enough I just watched "The Maltese Falcon" just the other night.

There are some who regard episodes like these as filler (it isn't, it's just a bit more subtle with foreshadowing the history between Mace and the Dracons), but I think it's necessary in a smaller, more personal matter. After the events of "Deadly Force" Broadway has switched his fascination from cowboys to detectives which I think is a great character choice. Plus, sometimes breathers are necessary both after the horror show that was "Metamorphosis" and the fantastical like "The Mirror."

I've mentioned before that in a lesser show Broadway could've easily ended up being "the big, tough, dumb one"; but detective stories generally emphasis brains over brawn so Broadway learning to use his head as well as his muscle is a great form of character development. Interestingly enough, the book series I read "Holmes on the Range" by Steve Hockensmith is all about the changing from the pulp, gunslinging heroes of the frontier to the more sophisticated (if it can so be called) methods of criminology.

One thing I'd like to see more of is Broadway reading or watching other great detectives. Besides Sherlock Holmes there's others like Hercule Poirot, Phillip Marlowe and Nero Wolfe.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Mon, Nov 25, 2024 9:58:48 pm EST from 135.180.3.149

BISHANSKY - Very good question. Of course, we don't know if Greg Weisman had dreamed up Antoinette Dracon at the time.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Nov 25, 2024 7:43:19 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

A notion I've been wondering for a while, Dominic has a line in "The Silver Falcon"...

"I tore Mace's nightclub down to find them. It was Tony's idea to look under the foundation - for all the good that did..."

Now, I can't help but wonder. Considering Dominic's habit of referring to Antoinette by her loathed nickname of "Toni", did Dominic say "Tony" or did he say "Toni"?
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Mon, Nov 25, 2024 7:41:13 pm EST from 67.189.200.184

"This same princess [Nitocris, a legendary ruler of ancient Babylon] was also the perpetrator of a grim practical joke. She had a tomb made for herself over one of the main gateways of the city, right high up above the actual entrance, and caused the following inscription to be cut on it: 'If any king of Babylon hereafter is short of money, let him open my tomb and take as much as he likes. But that must be done only in case of need. Whoever opens my tomb under any other circumstances will get no good of it.' The tomb remained undisturbed till the reign of Darius, who... thought it was absurd, when treasure was there asking to be taken, not to take it. So he opened the tomb. He found, however, not a penny inside - but only the body of the queen and another inscription, which read: 'If you had not been insatiably greedy and eager to get money by the most despicable means, you would never have opened the tomb of the dead.'" (Herodotus, Penguin Classics edition, translated by Aubrey de Selincourt and A. R. Burn)

I rewatched "The Silver Falcon" on DVD today. This is a notable episode for many reasons. For a start, it's the first episode in which Goliath does not appear; indeed, we only get one gargoyle on stage, Broadway. Tony Dracon makes his return appearance, and we get more of the Dracon family fleshed out with the introduction of his grandfather Dominic. We also see Matt Bluestone investigating the Illuminati rather than just talking about them, and meet his former partner, Agent Hacker, for the first time. And, of course, it's the "Gargoyles" tribute to film noir, particularly "The Maltese Falcon", which this episode echoes in more than just the title. (In particular, when I first saw "The Maltese Falcon" some years after seeing "The Silver Falcon", the moment that most drew my attention was Sam Spade's speech at the end about your duty towards your partner, no matter what you think of them; I immediately thought "There's the inspiration for Broadway's favorite movie speech".)

Alongside being a hommage to "The Maltese Falcon", it's also a strong echo of "Deadly Force". Broadway, Elisa, and Tony Dracon all have prominent roles in it (plus Glasses and Matt Bluestone are also present in both episodes, though Matt has a larger role in this episode, of course). We see that Elisa's learned from the events of "Deadly Force" and is taking greater care not to leave her gun lying carelessly around. She almost shoots Broadway in a reverse of the earlier episode, though fortunately it's "almost shoots" (we'll see an even more prominent reversal in "The Price"). And Broadway once again plays out "a movie fantasy", as Elisa puts it - though in a far happier fashion; I certainly suspect that he liked getting to recreate the scene from the black-and-white movie he'd been watching, down to even the same setting (particularly given the big smile on his face at the very end).

I thought it particularly appropriate that the real "Silver Falcon" turned out to be an architectural gargoyle (Art Deco style) of a sort.

Broadway's mention of Lexington and Brooklyn getting the VCR back at the clock tower is probably one of the more dated moments of "Gargoyles". How many of us, I wonder, remember VCRs now? It's been years since I used one. (And even their successors, DVD players, might be going the same way thanks to streaming. A few days ago, I got a catalog in the mail from the "Great Courses" company, which announced that they were winding down their DVDs and switching entirely to streaming, meaning a literal "Everything must go" DVD sale.)

Cleopatra's Needle appears in two adjacent episodes, having earlier shown up in "The Mirror" (Demona climbs it while making her escape from the museum at the start).

One moment in this episode that rewards repeat viewings: when "Benton" refers to the "DD" in the old photograph of Mace Malone as a "sharp-looking young fellow". He just couldn't resist complimenting himself.

We get our first look at Broadway learning how to read (as a follow-up from "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time"), with the challenge that one of the words he's reading is "right". I keep meaning, every time I see this episode (and "High Noon" with a similar moment), to look up how that word and others like it got spelled the way they did - "ight" to represent "ite" - but keep on forgetting.

While Broadway tore up the remains of his outfit at the end, he continues to display a keen detective's eye in episodes to come, particularly "Protection". He even brings it up at the start of #3 of "Here in Manhattan". (I also recall a "Disney Adventures" Gargoyles comic, a two-parter, where Broadway and Owen teamed up to stop a mind-control scheme of Demona's - which certainly feels topical now - and at the end, Owen gave Broadway a copy of "The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes" as a way of saying "thank you", tied in with Broadway using some detective skills in that story again.)


FAVORITE LINES.

ELISA (to Captain Chavez): You know Matt. Maybe he took personal time to look for Bigfoot or something.


BROADWAY: Ears like these don't miss much.


BROADWAY (after dodging the car that picked up Pal Joey): New York drivers.


TONY DRACON: First Bluestone, now Maza. This is like a cop convention.


BROADWAY: You made one mistake, Dracon. You messed with my partner.

TONY DRACON: Not you guys again!

BROADWAY: And when someone messes with your partner, you're supposed to do something about it. Case closed.


DOMINIC DRACON: What's this? Marbles? "I feel sorry for you, DD. You still haven't learned crime doesn't pay. Your old partner, Mace."
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Nov 25, 2024 7:38:48 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

MATT> That's exactly where I'm at right now... yeah, I also say that as someone who definitely used to get worked up about it.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Mon, Nov 25, 2024 1:12:19 pm EST from 67.189.200.184

I also have not watched TGC in many years. When Gargoyles came to Disney+, I think I might've watched "The Journey" once, but that's it.

It used to be a source of angst for me, but as more and more new canon material comes out, it bothers me less and less. I view it now much as I do the old Marvel Gargoyles comic. A part of the franchise. Some good there, some bad. But not canon. And not something to get worked up over.
Matt
"Human problems become gargoyle problems..."
posted @ Mon, Nov 25, 2024 11:08:04 am EST from 204.184.178.1

With one or two exceptions, I don't think I've watched TGC since it originally aired. I taped it at the time, but that VHS cassette never went into the player (it was too busy propping up my window air conditioning unit).

But now I am in this weird spot where if I see a screenshot or clip from TGC, the feeling I get is "uncanny valley". I can recognize an episode from the canon seasons at first glance, but TGC... it will take me a few moments to remember it exists and make the connection. The other day a friend showed me a screenshot of Demona from TGC and I was puzzled, trying to remember when Demona held a polaroid camera (or some device that resembled a polaroid camera).

I'm actually quite glad I am at this spot with TGC... I no longer get angry about it like I used to once upon a time. I am indifferent now. It just doesn't exist for me. Especially with the comic continuation ongoing.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Mon, Nov 25, 2024 10:57:44 am EST from 67.189.200.184

Third!

Thanksgiving Week! I'm thankful we will finally be wrapping up Quest next week. I'm eager to see how it all turns out. And how about the timing?! I didn't love the delay between 3 and 4, but for 4 and 5 to come on each side of Thanksgiving is pretty neat!

Antiyonder> That promo is fun. Seems to rely heavily on TGC, unfortunately.
Matt
"Human problems become gargoyle problems..."
posted @ Mon, Nov 25, 2024 8:31:25 am EST from 204.184.178.1

No sun - no moon!
No morn - no noon -
No dawn - no dusk - no proper time of day -
No sky - no earthly view -
No distance looking blue -
No road - no street - no "t'other side the way" -
No end to any row -
No indication where the crescents go -
No top to any steeple -
No recognitions of familiar people -
No courtesies for showing 'em -
No knowing 'em!
No travelling at all - no locomotion -
No inkling of the way - no notion -
"No go" - by land or ocean -
No mail - no post -
No news from any foreign coast -
No park - no ring - no afternoon gentility -
No company - no nobility -
No warmth, no cheerfulness, no healthful ease -
No comfortable feel in any member -
No shade, no shine, no butterflies, no bees,
No fruits, no flowers, no leaves, no birds,
November!

(A poem by Thomas Hood)

A piece of semi-"Gargoyles" trivia. I was watching a documentary about the reign of Henry VIII, with some silent dramatizations of scenes from his reign, and Cardinal Wolsey was played by a man named John Canmore.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Nov 25, 2024 8:04:18 am EST from 68.99.93.213

First.

Found a 2002 Australia promo for Gargoyles airing on the Disney Channel:

https://archive.org/details/2002-promo-for-gargoyles
Antiyonder
posted @ Mon, Nov 25, 2024 6:34:58 am EST from 68.119.3.1