Comment Room Archive : Gargoyles : Station Eight

Greg Bishansky> Rather good characterization of Coldstone.

[SPOILER] I wouldn't say I dislike the character arc Coldstone's gone through right now, more than anything I'm disappointed in the character and that through everything that's happened he's learned nothing and made no attempt to see what's improved between humans and Gargoyles, especially in the wake of their public outing. There's this constant dismissiveness towards others that really says that he's not the kind who could imagine living in someone else's skin. Something that's all too common in the modern world.

Your mentioning of anger being a near constant thing for Coldstone also reminds me of John Ridely's [i]The Other Side of the D.C. Universe, the issue about Jefferson Pierce aka Black Lightning more specifically. It's established that all the anger that Jeff had against his father's murder, against the criminality infesting his streets, and against the racial injustices of the time was great for firing him to purpose as a superhero but also poisoned his heart and mind in other ways.

Peter Gambi who was responsible for the death of Jeff's father and later repented and worked with Jeff to fix his mistakes, even taking a bullet to save Jeff's life. Black Lightning dismissed it as "dramatic suicide." While he fought hard to protect his neighborhood, his abrasive attitude drives a lot of potential allies away and he doesn't bother to learn anything about John Stewart, writing him off as a glorified space cop who doesn't know anything about working to make a change where it matters. And during his work as a teacher his tough love approach does help in some degrees but hurts in others. His belief that the world has no place for "soft, black men" comes off as bullying to one student and he has nothing but unkind memories of his teacher. That very anger hurts him at home too, his inability to deal with it healthily causes him so much trouble that his wife leaves him and takes their daughters with her. It's only after she calls him up and points this out to him that he realizes his been staying in an empty home.

By the end of the series Black Lightning has recognized those mistakes and works to correct them, but still has to bear the weight of them. What will happen with Coldstone depends entirely on whether he recognizes his own mistakes or whether he continues on the path of villainy. I'm really looking forward to the eventual confrontation between Coldstone and the Clan in the wake of Demona's theft of the egg, the series never shied away from its love of Star Trek so I'm fully expecting a Captain Picardesque speech much like in the episode "When the Bough Breaks."
Picard: Compensation?! You have stolen our children away from their classrooms, away from their bedrooms and you talk about compensation?! You claim to be a civilized world and yet you have just committed an act of utter barbarity! [/SPOILER]
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sat, Dec 7, 2024 2:12:30 am EST from 135.180.3.149

Oh, and I read a book that I'd recently bought at a local thrift shop today, "The Farthest-Away Mountain" by Lynne Reid Banks, that featured living gargoyles (if handled differently than our gargs). The main character is a girl who has a few big ambitions: one is to climb the "Farthest-Away Mountain" of the title (a difficult feat, since no matter how much you walk towards it, it stays in the distance - unless the mountain wants you to visit it....), and another is to meet an actual living gargoyle. (Her family argue against it, saying that if she saw one, she'd turn to stone.) She winds up meeting three on her journey to the mountain, who turn out to be friendly (and also not really gargoyles, but trolls - here in the sense of dwarf-folk - who were turned into living gargoyles by the villain. An illustration showed one as looking like a dragon with a long neck.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Dec 6, 2024 11:05:56 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

One or two other thoughts on the "Gargoyle Quest" discussion.

[SPOILER] I agree that Coldstone's response towards the humans is believable. Yes, the gargoyles have seemingly made some progress in their relationship with the humans - but some might argue that it's simply a case of "They could be useful to have around; yes, they're horrifying scary monsters, but they might be able to deal with the crime problem, so let's tolerate them - for now...." In fact, that was pretty much how the humans of Castle Wyvern were seeing them before the Massacre. Indeed, he might have thought that magically enslaving the humans was fair turnaround - a case of "they'd like to make us their servants".

One further thought about how Demona's quoting "Ozymandias" might not have been that advisable: the central image of that poem is a shattered statue. Not an auspicious picture, if you're a gargoyle. (And although Demona's no longer in danger of that, we can safely assume that she's still haunted by the aftermath of the sack of Castle Wyvern. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Dec 6, 2024 8:21:24 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

With all this discussion about Coldstone, it feels appropriate that I rewatched "High Noon" today (entirely a coincidence, of course; it just happened to be the next episode after "City of Stone").

Of course, this episode is both Coldstone's and Elisa's, in different ways. Coldstone (technically "Othello" here, because we've got the situation still of three gargoyle souls occupying Coldstone's body; the bodies of Coldfire and Coldsteel haven't even been built yet, so I'll be calling them "Desdemona" and "Iago" - though it's a bit inconsistent with my calling Demona "Demona" even in scenes where Macbeth hadn't named her yet) just wants to "live" with "Desdemona" quietly in the restored "virtual castle", just the two of them (if with "Iago" gliding about, but at least, now that "Othello"'s seen through him, he can't do as much damage as before). So he's inclined for a while to just look upon "Iago" controlling Coldstone's body as someone else's problem - all the more so since he and "Desdemona" are now just "shadows", as he puts it. Fortunately, "Desdemona" (supported by the Weird Sisters) nudges him at last to do the proper thing and come to the aid of the Manhattan clan and Elisa, after which he recognizes that he'd better keep himself far away from everyone else (or at least the rest of the clan) until the problem with "Iago" has been solved - complete with a very grand and courteous leavetaking towards Elisa.

But this is also Elisa's episode - and coming just after a four-parter where she (understandably) didn't get to do much. Now she rescues the gargoyles from the Demona/Macbeth/"Iago" team-up - and, more importantly, overcomes the temptation (a parallel to "Othello"'s) to just do nothing and go back to the life she'd had before "Awakening". (It seems most likely that the force of the temptation was the seeming impossibility of her feelings towards Goliath. Though I imagine that discovering a group of living gargoyles - actual living, breathing gargoyles from medieval Scotland - exist, alongside other strange things like magic and faerie-folk such as Puck, can't be easy either.) And here Officer Morgan helps her out - having one of his biggest moments in the series, and without even realizing the difference he's made. (Now I can't help wondering whether Elisa shared with him the impact of his words, once her being friendly with the gargoyles and particularly Goliath became public knowledge.)

I've wondered whether Demona had mixed feelings about Elisa showing up. On the one hand, it meant she had the opportunity to slaughter the detective, something she's been wanting to do ever since they first crossed paths. But at the same time, a part of her was probably hoping that Elisa wouldn't come. For a start, she could use her not showing up to argue to Goliath that humans were false and treacherous, could never be trusted, and thus, that the only way to handle them was to wipe them out. (Of course, she could always dispose of Elisa's body before sunset and lie about it - except that Macbeth, with his sense of honor, wouldn't have gone along with the deception.) But more importantly, I think that Demona would have felt unsettled about Elisa displaying such loyalty and friendship. Demona's world-view is rooted on "humans will never be friendly to gargoyles, will always be the enemy; peace with them is impossible". And she could console herself, in a way, with the fact that the Captain had let the clan down, hadn't dared stand up to Hakon during the sack of Castle Wyvern. She could even try convincing herself that Macbeth really was intending to betray her in 1057. But Elisa showing up to help Goliath, even if it seems like certain death for her - I can just imagine that raising an uncomfortable spectre of doubt in Demona, a thought of "What if I've been wrong?" And she can't stand that thought. I believe that that's the real reason why Demona htaes Elisa - it's not just jealousy over Goliath (though that helps), but Elisa threatening her cherished view of humans, a view that she's desperately clinging to in order to avoid facing the dreaded truth that she bears a lot of the responsibility for her troubles.

We see more of Broadway and Hudson's reading lessons, in a nice follow-up from "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time", including poor Broadway having trouble with "right" again. (I really need to look up how the word acquired that spelling; I keep intending to, and then forgetting.) Their reading the newspaper reminded me of a post of Greg Weisman's at "Ask Greg" about reading, which (alongside a list of great authors besides Shakespeare, from Homer to Ernest Hemingway) advised "read newspapers"; Broadway and Hudson are clearly following that advice. (And are particularly reading a story about a couple of teenagers, not dreaming that a couple of years later, Broadway and the other two members of the trio will be encountering those same teenagers - and how!)

Followed by the scene where they enter Macbeth's library and Broadway marvels at all the books filling it. And, as I've mentioned before, a collection of books that size would indeed seem miraculous to someone coming from an age before the invention of the printing press, when books had to be copied by hand.

Demona in her policewoman guise glowers at Elisa as she passes her - naturally.

When the gargoyles head off for Macbeth's house, Elisa demands a full report from them when they get back, as if they're human colleagues. (A nice little touch, of Elisa giving those everyday touches in her friendship with those anything-but-everyday associates.)

(I still can't help thinking that the concealment spell came in handy at Belvedere Castle; Demona would certainly have gotten a lot of attention as a human dressed like that. Noting that Brendan and Margot were among the people passing, I had the image of Brendan - if it wasn't for that spell - staring at Demona and Margot catching him doing so, giving him a good tongue-lashing and then telling Demona "Go do your soliciting somewhere else, you shameless hussy!" or something like that, leading to a heated confrontation - made all the more amusing by the fact that Marina Sirtis voiced both characters; shades of, say, the scene in "The Owl House" where King was complaining about Hooty's voice.)

And the episode becomes proof that Xanatos doesn't have the monopoly on Xanatos Gambits, as Demona and Macbeth - more accurately, the Weird Sisters who were directing them - showed here. The deception's aimed as much at the audience as at the gargoyles; because of all the focus on Coldstone (complete with the episode opening inside him, with "Othello" bringing a bouquet of heather for "Desdemona") from the start, we never consider the possibility, until near the end, that there might have been more to the "stolen cargo" than just a dormant undead cybernetic gargoyle. Which leads to a suspenseful ending - and we'll have to wait for eight episodes to find out what this battle the Weird Sisters were talking about was.

FAVORITE LINES.

ELISA All I want to do is hit the sack.

HUDSON: Why would you want to hit a sack?

BROOKLYN: Oh, she means she's tired and wants to sleep.

HUDSON: Well, then, why didn't she say so?

ELISA (about Macbeth and Demona stealing Coldstone): They couldn't just walk him out of the door. Even in New York, people would notice that.

MACBETH: We don't need to wait for sunset. You're still thinking like a gargoyle.

DEMONA: I am a gargoyle. Although this form does prove useful at times.

OFFICER MORGAN: Well, shift's over. Climb into bed and pull it in after you.

ELISA: You don't know how much I'd like to. And when I woke up, it would be over for me. No more monsters, good or bad. Just normal life.

OFFICER MORGAN: Normal life... Would be nice.

ELISA: For a while. But they need me.

OFFICER MORGAN: Isn't that why you put on the badge?

ELISA: Yeah, that's exactly why. Thanks, Morgan. You've been a big help.

OFFICER MORGAN: Um, sure, Detective. Any time.

"DESDEMONA": Is this right? To do nothing is not the Gargoyle Way.

"OTHELLO": We are no longer gargoyles. We are... shadows.

"DESDEMONA" (fused with the Weird Sisters): Even shadows must be true to their shade.

JOGGER: Hey! Where'd those statues come from?

ELISA: Don't ask me. I'm just taking a nap.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Dec 6, 2024 7:47:54 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

I'm really looking forward to reading the spoilered-out comments below once my local comic distributor gets its head out of its...er, sand...and actually delivers "Quest" #5. Meanwhile, I'm sure I'm reading too much into the sudden, lengthy, discussion of Coldstone.

Being so limited, I'm not sure how much I can add to the discussion. I agree that Goliath had a lot going on when Coldstone approached him initially, and it could just have been that he didn't have time for Coldstone's nonsense at that moment. But Goliath does listen, at least for a moment, and does start to answer him before being interrupted.

Goliath has in him a deep and abiding belief that alliance between humans and gargoyles (on level terms) is not only possible, but desirable. Coldstone does not outright hate humans, apparently, but to repeat the term I used before, is more than a bit of a gargoyle supremacist. This is their difference as spelled out in "Cold Comfort" and more or less continued up through "Quest" 4. I can't see them resolving that difference easily.

Because I don't think Goliath has a good answer. He has faith that humanity can be brought around to be friends, and he's doing what he thinks he can to accomplish that, but at the bottom all he has is his faith. There is no proof he can offer that such a thing can happen, and they both know it.

So, in a way, I can very easily imagine both of them giving up on the conversation (Coldstone, after all, says he "made a half-hearted attempt" to start the conversation again) with Goliath dodging a debate he could not win and Coldstone realizing he could not break Goliath's faith through facts. And so Coldstone goes to someone who will listen, albeit probably the worst possible person to take advice from.

Again, I have no idea if this pans out in Quest 5 or if I'm going to be completely embarrassed in a week.

Todd Jensen: "...in actual history during this time, England's king was Edward the Confessor, a man noted for his piety - but perhaps the kind of piety that would convince him that gargoyles were demonic creatures that should be utterly destroyed." Which reminds me of the rather startlingly gargoyle-like carving, now smashed, in Melrose Abbey overlooking (if I remember correctly) the altar area. Although I'm sure the real-world timing is wrong, I can't imagine what an Edward would make of that.
morrand - [morrand276 at gmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, Dec 6, 2024 7:22:27 pm EST from 108.69.72.60

Bishansky > "I think Coldstone has been one of the most fascinating character arcs as of late, especially in regards to just how close it can hit to home."

Yes. I think you hit the nail on the head in your initial post when you repeatedly emphasized that Coldstone has some legitimate concerns. It's very reminiscent of a lot of Americans in 2016, and again last month: they have very legitimate concerns that have been ignored for too long, they feel like they don't have a voice in the process...but their solution was to ally themselves with the ABSOLUTE WORST person imaginable. This parallel may be a large part of the reason so many of us find Coldstone's choices so aggravating right now: because it feels all too real.
Craig
posted @ Fri, Dec 6, 2024 3:40:53 pm EST from 69.118.30.106

MATT> Yeah I think there's more to Othello not having always been Goliath's friend than just Iago setting the guy up to attack Big G. Hopefully time and more issues will tell.

CRAIG> Yeah, I've been managing a corporate team for a few years now. It can be tough, but rewarding. I try to keep a good read on my people. I think I'm a good boss... I try to lead them and not boss them around. I stand between them and my bosses on a regular basis. But I learn just as much from them as I hope they learn from me. Not every day is easy, and I have blind spots.

Goliath is doing his best. Could he have done better? Yes. Could Coldstone? Absolutely. Instead of going to Demona, he could have talked to Coldfire... or he could have gone to Brooklyn, the second-in-command, who I am sure would have been happy to let Goliath know he needed to make time to talk to his brother.

The road to Hell and all that. I think Coldstone has been one of the most fascinating character arcs as of late, especially in regards to just how close it can hit to home.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Fri, Dec 6, 2024 3:35:08 pm EST from 67.189.200.184

Bishansky > As a former manager myself, I found that a big part of the job (possibly the most annoying but arguably the most integral part) was managing personalities. Being aware of what motivated each individual team member and making them feel included. I think this is where Goliath arguably fails in "Cold Comfort," by not accurately reading how frustrated Coldstone was, and not giving him space to feel heard or included at a moment that could have made all the difference. (Or not...I honestly think he's probably too far gone for that conversation to have helped anyway.) But I do cut Goliath some slack. Poor guy just got out of jail, lost one of his best friends, inherited a fortune, and got a new job. Busy few days indeed.
Craig
posted @ Fri, Dec 6, 2024 3:20:00 pm EST from 69.118.30.106

GregB> Good synopsis. I think it also needs to be noted that he's always been a bit of a hothead. He's always been very reactionary and often doesn't stop to fully think things out. [SPOILER] Demona is well aware of this trait, he's her brother after all, and she probably first put out the idea of the "compromise" to him and he bought it as reasonable: We are not going to kill the humans or really even enslave them. Just make them happy to keep the gargoyles safe. [/SPOILER] And there is more to his history we've only had hints at. Recall Lexington cautioning Goliath that "he hasn't always been your friend..." Goliath often looks at Coldstone with rose-colored glasses, but we the audience need not. His idea of protection has often meant fleeing and hiding from the Clan at best and threatening them and lying to them at worst. And that was even before Quest.
Matt
"Human problems become gargoyle problems..."
posted @ Fri, Dec 6, 2024 3:19:10 pm EST from 204.184.178.1

QUEST #5

[SPOILER] I'm really under the weather at present so although I enjoyed the issue, it was like reading it while underwater and I still haven't quite formed full thoughts. Apologies too as I haven't read previous comments but I figure people's hip-take reaction is often interesting so, uh, here's mine.

So it could be the fever talking but I think there's a lot going on here. On one level it absolutely works as a big action spectacle. But oh my, those layers.

As always, I wondered how Greg would land it in time; as always, he managed it with time to spare while still exploring many of the permutations that the concept suggests. He addresses how the curse might affect Dominique (or at least that Demona has considered this - wonder what that contingency was) and mentions a Pied Piper solution. I think what I expected but didn't see was that Demona would use the Keys in multiple ways. In theory, as presented, it should have been simplicity itself to enslave the Manhattan Clan as well.

That she doesn't can either be explained a few ways. The less interesting explanations are that there's some logistical "one spell at a time" bar on the Keys or that she's just a bit dim. The more interesting version is that she didn't want to and maybe even didn't feel she needed to. Well I think "I am the last true gargoyle" kind of gives the game away - she assumed she wouldn't need to extend the spell - and since the whole thing is maintained by her willpower anyway it's down to how the Keys interpret her will. But the keys seem to have a different interpretation from what she expects. When she states that Coldfire, as products of human engineering, this works to bring Coldfire under her command. I find that mechanically a bit dicey since the soul is a gargoyle and animated by magic - would she have command over the Steel Clan robots in the same way? Or a car? But Goliath who is in love with a human - well there's a fair case here. But it doesn't stick.

So are the Keys doing their own thing? Possible but dramatically dull - that just means another player (possibly one without a discernible consciousness) is putting their thumb on the scale which is messy. No, the crisper explanation is that Demona's will is different from her stated aim. So clearly while Demona *says* she doesn't consider Goliath a gargoyle, she actually does. But rather interestingly she does consider Coldfire to be effectively tainted by humanity which displays a more nuanced bigotry that intrigues me and presumably is the difference between her and a car or a Steel Clan robot. I'm not going to touch her view on Coldstone since it's ambiguous as to whether in that moment he was touched by the spell at all - he's on Demona's side for now but it's also possible that Demona really does view him as effectively human since she and Xanatos reanimated him. Either way, file this under "Demona's her own worst enemy" again with a side of "don't invoke magics which require emotional control". And what's particularly interesting is that "Wyvern" is the trigger for her losing control.

All this took me a couple of reads which normally I'd be hyped about but, reading through a fever, I needed a few. Also, while the art is generally great, I find it kind of hard to scan what action was taking place. Goliath went for the flute but Angela seemed to be going for the necklace. Coldfire was firing at - Demona directly? I love how condensed the action is (can definitely understand why Greg said this could be a TV episode in its own right) but it was a little tricky to track.

Other great moments:

I really like Angela in this. It's not the first time she's kept a cool head where Goliath, er, hasn't, but she thinks quickly and yet still makes clear a path is there for Demona. Also, her loophole with Coldfire was really great for someone thinking on the spot.

Demona unironically quoting Ozymandias. (Or is this another Freudian slip moment?!)

Some interesting teases for the future: Brentwood enjoyed having slaves in thrall; Owen acquiring the flute; three new Keys to Power; and of course, the egg. Also some subtle ones: the tinking of Cleopatra's necklace suggests that the individual parts of the necklace remain and I wonder if we'll find there's a future (let alone a past) for those fragments as well. Also I'm not sure I'd "hope" Jade and Turquesa are sent to the Green given Avalon's penchant for sending its travellers into crises.

Coldstone's banishment is the second such example we've seen in the comics and he doesn't seem exactly keen to redeem himself. Makes me wonder how common banishment is/was.

So odd that now of all times the egg is stolen. Was the egg theft a plan that was pushed back or was it something from Greg's initial pitch for the future of the book that got misinterpreted by Dynamite's schedulers?

But all of that pales into insignificance compared to the greatest revelation perhaps in the whole run of comics...

Demona is jealous of aeroplanes. Because... OF COURSE she is that incredibly petty. [/SPOILER]

Also, seeing people talk "City of Stone" (I'd love to catch up and contribute at some point but right now sleep is more important), one thing that really struck me recently.

I always see the "Enter Macbeth" painting through the eyes of where we are at that stage in the story - a revelation that Macbeth knows Demona. In my head it's, "Oh, he has a stain glass image of Demona."

But I wonder if that's the right interpretation.

With the moonlight behind and the specific framing, it's almost certainly a depiction of that moment in "City of Stone" Part Four. And now I wonder about it from a completely different perspective: what does it say about the psychology of Macbeth in 1994 that he'd commission a stain glass window not just of his greatest foe but of his greatest foe during her most gruesome treachery? Or to put it another way, I always looked at it as a piece of art about the person.

But what if he commissioned that not as a way to remember the person but rather the moment? And that subtly changes my reading of it in ways I haven't fully figured out just yet.
Ed
posted @ Fri, Dec 6, 2024 3:18:10 pm EST from 86.133.183.91

Of course you'd think it's "unfair". Your head is so far up Greg's ass, you're overdue for rent in his colon.
Anonymous
posted @ Fri, Dec 6, 2024 2:36:11 pm EST from 74.80.182.78

On another forum, I saw somebody say that they believe Coldstone's characterization has been "all over the place". But they also didn't like the direction Coldstone has been moving in since #12 of "Here In Manhattan". And I'm not trying to call this person out, but I really started thinking about what they were saying and I think that Coldstone/Othello has actually been one of the most consistent characters in the entire canon.

[SPOILER] The first time we meet Othello, he's agreeing with Angel that they shouldn't risk themselves to protect Castle Wyvern, just leave and let the Vikings have it. He doesn't like humans. Now, he likely has legitimate reasons to not like humans, but he clearly doesn't like them. And one could say that the dislike was justified because, the following day, he was shattered by humans.But even before that, he was deeply resentful of the humans and he followed Goliath's orders begrudgingly... not out of lack of love, but lack of agreement with Goliath's "wisdom".

Fast forward to 1995, he's resurrected by Demona and Xanatos. Demona lays all the blame at the hands of the humans and Goliath (well, it's the Vikings and Demona who were at fault) and is easily set against his brother. In the end, he doesn't want to kill his brother and is willing to listen to what Goliath has to say, but that's cut short by Demona pulling the trigger on her particle beam cannon. Coldstone takes the blast for Goliath. But there was so much anger and resentment, and it's justifiable, he was killed and resurrected in what he perceived to be a horrific form.

Next time we learn more about Othello's past. We learn about his mate, Desdemona. And we learn a lot about Iago. What do we see? A guy who deeply angry, resentful, and all too easy to be set against his beloved brother when Iago whispered a few words into his ear about Goliath and Desdemona having an affair. We can assume he eventually realized Iago was manipulating them, and as gargoyles traditionally address each other by the nature of their relationship, Iago was dubbed "the evil one". Now, Iago is definitely not a good person, and he deserved to pay for what he did here.... but is "Evil One" a little over the top? Well, we have a lot of "Dark Ages" to get through some day. But, hey, Othello has someone else to focus his anger and resentment on...

... and throughout the rest of "Legion", Iago makes it way too easy to do that. But hey, Demona is out of the picture at the moment, the last memory he has is of saving Goliath. Okay, he's willing to join them in their new home. But things go wrong thanks to the soul of Iago and Xanatos's computer program. Both try to take over, Iago tries to claim Desdemona's soul. Yeah, that "Evil One" title is being more than justified. But after it's over, Iago is temporarily trapped and Othello is more than content to spend eternity alone with Desdemona.

So content that he needs to be manipulated by the Weird Sisters and Desdemona's pleading to take action when Iago takes control of the Coldstone body again. So he sends himself into exile, with Desdemona holding Iago's soul at bay. He does care about his clan, there is no question. And he is polite to Elisa Maza.

Then we come to "Reunion" and he's joyous to see Goliath, Bronx, and to find out about Angela and that the eggs survived. And he does love his clan, he wants to protect them from Iago. But what are the lengths he goes to in order to do it? He doesn't talk it out, he pretends to be Iago and attacks them, and seriously attacks Elisa. That line about human necks is chilling. And, in retrospect, I don't think it's entirely an act.

So what are we seeing here? He loves his clan, but he has a lot of anger and resentment. Towards the humans, but right now it's mostly focused on Iago... "the evil one". Who can still easily manipulate him because once we get to "Possession", Othello's soul is placed into Broadway, Desdemona's in Angela, and Iago's in Brooklyn. When Puck takes control of the Coldstone body, "Brooklyn" manages to easily manipulate the situation... destroy the body and finally kill "Iago" and hey, we get to keep these bodies. Othello is into this idea. Very into this idea. Desdemona is not. In the end, Iago is placed in the Coldsteel body and flies off. Othello and Desdemona take the bodies of Coldstone and Coldfire... yes, Othello has come around but the fact that he was willing to keep Broadway's body and encouraged Desdemona to keep Angela's has always been chilling. But once in those bodies, they don't rejoin the clan... they go after Coldsteel. They promise to return when Coldsteel has been dealt with... but what's the single driving force in Othello's world? Anger and resentment towards "the evil one". They could easily remain with the clan, keep an ear out for Coldsteel because...

... they don't do a good job of chasing him, do they? They return to the Himalayas and until Xanatos summons them to London, they're not even on the same continent, are they? Coldsteel escapes again and Hudson talks them into returning to the clan.

And upon returning, Coldstone resents protecting the city, resents protecting the humans, and disagrees with all of Goliath's choices. Let me state for the record that this is fine. He's allowed to have a mind of his own and voice his objections. He has some good points, I understand why he feels this way. His anger watching Goliath's hearing is, I believe, the catalyst for his coming actions. And he's not really wrong, he has every right to feel that the humans have no right to judge them. His use of the word "largesse" was very interesting. So I understand why he feels the way he does. I don't even entirely disagree with him. But it's the actions he takes that are unjustifiable.

He joins Demona... promising to secretly serve her cause as long as none of the clan are harmed. But who is and isn't clan? He's said to Elisa that she's clan and he even said to Demona he believes Elisa and Goliath's love is true. But how much of that is sincere on his part and how much of that is him forcing himself to believe that for his brother's sake? My father's family hated my mother because she didn't come from the same religious-ethnic background so this is something I think about. Before the divorce, they smiled to her face, but later on... I still get angry thinking about it.

Well, we've read Quest, we know how this ends up. He participates in kidnapping Egwardo, attempts to help Demona take over the world, etc. And I do think a lot of this was clearly the result of Demona and Coldstone conspiring.
The humans will obey all gargoyles, thus they'd be safe... we can even keep Demona from abusing them thanks to that control. The humans are not even unhappy about it. Yeah, the big "compromise". Coldstone is trying to please everyone... but the plan is foiled, he's banished, and he openly joins Demona. He's not seeking redemption... because he doesn't think he needs it. From his point-of-view, he's protecting his clan and his kind "whether they like it or not." He likely believes Egwardo to be better off under Demona's care.

Coldstone's relationship with Elisa Maza doesn't appear to be negative on the surface, likewise his relationship with Master Dawa who was trying to help him. But that doesn't mean he doesn't hate humans, it means they're both "two of the good ones" at best. His anger and resentment doesn't seem as absolute and total as Demona's. But Coldstone's hatred for humans stems from fear... justified fear, he had been murdered by humans... it's not driven by vengeance the way Demona's is.

But, in the end, Othello/Coldstone has always been driven most by anger and resentment. Anger and resentment towards the humans; and anger and resentment towards "the evil one". When he stopped chasing the evil one, without that outlet for his anger and resentment, his simmering anger and hatred for humans began to boil back to the surface. And again, I stress, he has good reasons for feeling this way, but his actions were unjustifiable. Now, could this have been avoided if Goliath wasn't too busy to talk to him during "Cold Comfort"? Maybe... but as someone who works in management, sometimes things pile up. Coldstone could have waited a little bit longer. Or voiced his concerns to Coldfire and forced a conversation with Goliath. But he didn't... he was too angry and resentful. [/SPOILER]

Coldstone's characterization isn't all over the place. This is who he's always been. If anything, he's been one of the most consistent characters in the canon. Now, this person is free to dislike the direction Coldstone has gone in, that's fine. But I think to say his characterization is all over the place is unfair.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Fri, Dec 6, 2024 2:07:06 pm EST from 67.189.200.184

MATTHEW AND CRAIG - Thanks for your comments. I've suspected that Demona was the more likely candidate for Canmore's death (with presumably some sort of "cover-up" to make it look to the chroniclers as if it was the work of humans), to explain why Canmore's descendants began hunting gargoyles again, particularly Demona - and this time out of fanatical hatred for gargoyles, rather than Duncan and Canmore's tone of "We don't like them anyway, but we're after them because we don't want them getting in the way of our power struggles over who rules Scotland".
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Dec 6, 2024 8:28:45 am EST from 68.99.93.213

Matthew the Fedora Guy> "In "Awakening" a distraught and furious Magus impulsively cursed the very people who helped save the humans and Katherine's life. And here Demona only listens to a portion of a conversation and her decision dooms two clans"

Demona? Making the same mistake as a human? Why I never.XD
Antiyonder
posted @ Fri, Dec 6, 2024 3:25:38 am EST from 68.119.3.1

There's no time for us
There's no place for us
What is this thing that builds our dreams
Yet tips 'em 'way from us

Who wants to live forever?
Who wants to live forever?

Ah, the finale of one of the best multiparters of the series; Greg's Shakespearian influences really shine through here. In "Awakening" a distraught and furious Magus impulsively cursed the very people who helped save the humans and Katherine's life. And here Demona only listens to a portion of a conversation and her decision dooms two clans (Bodhe is basically a walking example of why cronyism is never a good thing). In some ways Demona echoes the same mistakes of Duncan, making things worse through violent impulses and never really appreciating the good things, just tossing them away and making things worse. The difference is that Duncan's poor decisions ultimately led to his death, Demona's immortality seems to be a detriment to her character development, without that fear of death there's little reason for her to reflect on her mistakes and how blaming others hasn't helped anyone, human, gargoyle or herself.

Macbeth's arc here reminds me quite a bit of Zuko's from Avatar, someone who was constantly punished for doing the right thing. Zuko stood up for the new recruits of the army and humbled himself before his father. It got him humiliated, burned and banished. Serving Duncan loyally ultimately led to the death of his father, continued loyalty and Duncan demanded his death. Sticking up for Demona got him and his allies killed. Sparing Canmore led to the deaths of his beloved wife and son. I'd say this is the big reason for him wearing the Hunter mask, besides protecting him from the spell it serves as a visual cue on how far he's willing to go for his revenge. The Hunter and Macbeth, two adversaries of Demona's own making here to kill her once and for all. Being unconcerned about the clan possibly being killed or Manhattan being unable to break the curse brings to mind other Hunters who don't care about the collateral in their pursuit of revenge.

This has been a headcanon of mine for some time, but I like to think that Macbeth took up the name Arkil Morel and was the one who ultimately killed Canmore. But even after killing the boy he once spared found no peace and later directed thoughts of revenge towards Demona. But living with that much anger and obsessing on revenge was just wearisome for the soul, hence why he was so tired. Also, I think the "sleep" line from the Weird Sisters was to ease his mind into unconsciousness and make it easier to control.

One of the beauties of "City of Stone" and Goliath's place in it actually reminds me of Batman: Mask of the Phantasm. While Batman/Bruce Wayne has a personal connection, he's ultimately an outsider in the tragic drama of the Beaumonts, the mob and the Joker. Doomed to witness murders he can't prevent and a life he can't save. There's something similar to both Goliath and Xanatos here, both integral to the setup of the plot and its resolution but both outsiders in a friendship-turned-blood feud that's centuries in the making. But the Weird Sisters aren't done with their pawns yet and the gargoyles have dipped their toes into the unearthly, it won't be long before they're thrown into the deep end.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Fri, Dec 6, 2024 12:54:50 am EST from 135.180.3.149

Todd > Excellent analysis on the final part of "City of Stone." As far as the theme of paranoia becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy, [SPOILER] Goliath recognizes this trend as well in the latest issue of Quest, when he tells Demona, "If the humans ever do destroy us--you will likely be the cause!" [/SPOILER]

The mention of Keith singing in Italian makes me think of a video I saw from his Nat King Cole cover show, singing "Non Dimenticar." I've always wished he would perform some shows again so I could see him sing live.

Unrelatedly, I received the latest volume of Fantagraphics's 'Disney Afternoon Adventures,' Volume 5, with Darkwing Duck on the cover for the second time. The lead story is a 44-page French story starring Darkwing Duck (or "Mystermask," as he's known in France) which has never before been published in English. According to INDUCKS (the exhaustive fan-made online resource of Disney comics), there don't appear to have been many Darkwing comics produced exclusively for non-U.S. markets, so this is one of the few '90s DW comics that I haven't seen before. Appropriate for a comic from France, it's about a fiendish plot to enslave the minds of the citizens of St. Canard using...pretentious haute cuisine! It's a fun story that would fit right in as an episode of the show. Two specific little tidbits I noted: The story places St. Canard in Calisota, the fictional state that Duckburg is located in, as mentioned by Carl Barks in only one story ("The Gilded Man"), but referenced many times since by fans and other comics creators. And this story actually explains what the acronym "S.H.U.S.H." stands for, something which the TV show never revealed. I'm guessing this specific "backronym" was invented by the English translator, since the wording would obviously be different in French. Anyway, I thought it was quite clever in its simplicity: S.H.U.S.H. apparently stands for "Secret Hierarchy of Undercover Spy Heroes."

Incidentally, this Darkwing story was originally published as part of the French 'Collection "Disney Club"' series. These comics seem to have been in album format, with each issue featuring a 44-page story focusing on a modern '90s Disney property (with a particular focus on the Disney Afternoon shows). Previous volumes in the Fantagraphics series have showcased very enjoyable Rescue Rangers and DuckTales stories from 'Collection "Disney Club,"' and I recall one memorable TaleSpin story from the series being republished in the U.S. 'Colossal Comics Collection' digest in the '90s. I'm mentioning this because an adaptation of the Gargoyles series-opener "Awakening" was published as part of a similar album series in France ('Collection "Hors Collection"'). That adaptation was done by the same French writer who wrote this Darkwing comic (as well as two others that Fantagraphics has already reprinted: a DuckTales story, and the adaptation of A Goofy Movie). The art, as with most of these French stories, is by a Spanish artist from the Comicup Studios collective. Since this is the only Gargoyles comic story that I don't own, I tracked down a copy and look forward to receiving it in the mail (although it's tough to imagine that an adaptation can do justice to the "Awakening" five-parter in only 44 pages). It will probably take several weeks for it to arrive from Europe, but once I have it, I will report in.

Back to the Fantagraphics book. The other long story in this volume--even longer than the Darkwing one, in fact--is a two-part Rescue Rangers adventure (which is from the final two issues published of the Disney Comics 'Chip 'n' Dale Rescue Rangers' book). I remember reading this one as a child. It has a good spooky mood, set on the foggy Scottish moors (although the plot gets kind of convoluted). Eagle-eyed readers will note that at the start of the story, the Rescue Rangers are on their way home from the Switzerland adventure previously reprinted in Volume 2 of the Fantagraphics series.

There's a TaleSpin story which was produced in 1993 but is published here for the first time anywhere. Back then, the Disney Studio Program was just pumping out stories for the international market, and I guess some of those stories never found a home. This is a fun story, which basically has one joke (Baloo and Kit have their easiest adventure ever and never realize the bad guys are after them), and the story mostly focuses on the villains, Don Karnage and Colonel Spigot. I don't believe Karnage and Spigot were ever in the same episode, so it's fun to see them interact (although Spigot's probably-not-politically-correct lisp is extra annoying to read/decipher in written dialogue).

There are two Gummi Bears stories as well, one originally published in Brazil and one in Yugoslavia...although that hardly matters, as these international stories were all made by the same group at the Disney Studio Program (mostly American writers and Argentinian artists). As I've said before, the main reason I began buying these Fantagraphics collections was for the Gummi Bears stories. In the '80s / '90s, only one Gummi Bears comic book story was ever published in America, and as a kid I always wished for more. Well, be careful what you wish for. As I've mentioned with prior volumes, these Gummi stories were clearly written by people who had never seen the show and had only been given a cursory briefing on the characters, and they all tend to be rather weird in various ways. For instance, the Bears don't seem to be trying very hard to hide from the humans in these stories (in one of the stories in this volume, the Gummies have their own village of thatched cottages that they live in, with a giant banner declaring "Welcome to Gummi Glen"!). The first story in this volume is just kind of stupid: Igthorn has been hit on the head and now wants to be nice, so he tries to make up for his past sins against the Gummies. This includes a lot of anachronistic humor: he says that Lady Bane (who unfortunately doesn't appear in the story) has a time portal, and he offers to get Grammi a microwave, and a credit card for Zummi! The second Gummi story in this volume, however, is genuinely offensive to fans of the show. A talking frog tries to get Grammi to kiss him so he can become a prince, and when she refuses, the frog enlists Gruffi's help with the promise of making Gruffi a knight! Gruffi is ridiculously out of character: on the show he's a strict isolationist by nature, and he would never want to be knighted by a human! (Becoming a knight is Cubbi's dream, not Gruffi's!) But worse, Grammi convinces Gruffi that the frog is more useful in his current form: they'll capture him in a jar and give him to Cavin and they all can make a fortune displaying him for profit! Obviously this is all a reference to the Chuck Jones classic "One Froggy Evening" (the story is written by Cal Howard, who worked at Warner Bros. as a story man and animator around that time). But it's so ridiculously out of character for Grammi to want to exploit someone in need instead of helping them. And Grammi and Gruffi's sudden avaricious streak is absolutely bizarre (what the hell are Gummi Bears going to do with money?!).

The last new-to-the U.S. story in this volume is a Bonkers story from France, which features both Lucky Piquel and Miranda Wright, and has an ending twist that--depending on your sensibilities--ranges somewhere between baffling and genuinely disturbing. The rest of the stories in the book are from Disney Adventures: A Goof Troop story that's primarily notable for having layouts and pencils by two guys who directed on '90s Warner Bros. shows like Animaniacs (Spike Brandt and Kirk Tingblad), although truthfully the art isn't all that exciting. A DuckTales spoof of 'The Blob' featuring Gyro and some great cartoony artwork by Italian artist Roberto Santillo. And two fun Darkwing stories, one of which is a Megavolt romp drawn by the late Dave Schwartz; and the other features Gizmoduck, a spoof of Mr. Fantastic, and a superhero union.

The next volume, due out next year, is slated to contain the comic adaptation of DuckTales: The Movie, as well as a TaleSpin epic from Disney Adventures which I remember quite fondly and have wanted to read again for years, involving the search for the mythical land of Shambhala.
Craig
posted @ Thu, Dec 5, 2024 11:54:17 pm EST from 69.118.30.106

A few weeks ago, I mentioned seeing a documentary on Leonardo da Vinci on PBS whose narrator was Keith David. This evening, I got to see a "behind-the-scenes/making of" program about that documentary, which included a bit about how they got Keith David to be the narrator, with the mention, first, that he had a great voice that made him well-suited for the narrator's part (I think everyone here will agree with that), and then added that when the documentary-makers were hoping he'd be able to pronounce all the Italian names and words that would have to come up in Leonardo's life, Keith's agent said not to worry, "he sings in Italian". Which may produce some new wild creativity demons about Goliath....
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Dec 5, 2024 10:03:44 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

Yeah I think The Mirror also demonstrates her lack of concern for the gargoyle race as she insisted on turning Manhattan citizens back into humans.

Sure it wouldn't be right and they are basically just humans with wings, but it would have still strengthened the race.

That said, one additional danger of Demona's spell that we can figure happening is that some humans likely died just because they turned to stone at less that ideal moments.

Such as Fox not surviving if she had been flying alone or the mother in that prose who was on a chair that might have collapsed.

Wonder if a similar thing would have happened to the citizens turned into gargoyles. You know, not preparing for sunrise as gliding is something they don't know they could do.
Antiyonder
posted @ Thu, Dec 5, 2024 9:58:45 pm EST from 68.119.3.1

Rewatched "City of Stone Part Four" today.

This episode makes it all the more clear that Demona's real goal is revenge on humanity (fueled not only by anger, but also by her desperation to have someone else to blame her disasters on rather than herself), rather than the safety and survival of the gargoyle species - even if she'll repeatedly claim it to be the latter, to justify it to the other gargoyles (and maybe also to herself). Here, she's attempting to dispose of Goliath and his clan (including Bronx). At this point in the series, as far as the audience knows, these are the only gargoyles left, other than Demona. We'll find out later that there were other survivors, but we didn't know that when this episode first aired - and there's certainly no hint in this episode or any of the other episodes leading up to it that Demona knows that there are other gargoyles besides the Manhattan clan and herself out there. So her scheme, if successful, would reduce the gargoyle population of the world to just herself - practically finishing the job for the humans. Even given their opposition to her plans, it would make no sense if she really cared about saving her species; it'd only make sense if what her true goal was was making the human race pay for its treatment of gargoyles. And she even states that as her goal when the Weird Sisters confront her at the end (see below).

(For that matter, if the Manhattan clan and Demona really were the only gargoyles left, the species numbers would have dropped past recovery, meaning that wiping out humanity wouldn't save the gargoyles from extinction - at most, it would just delay the end - after which, there wouldn't even be anyone left to remember the gargoyles.)

I mentioned how Duncan's suspicions towards Findlaech and Macbeth were unjustified - especially back in Part One - and led to producing the very results he was seeking to avoid. Now, in the 1057 flashback, we see the same thing happening to Demona. She jumps to the conclusion, after listening in on Macbeth's conversation with Bodhe and Luach, that Macbeth intends to betray her - the old case of "stopped listening too early" - resulting in her abandoning him, only for her clan to wind up dead at the hands of Canmore and his supporters. Her distrust ruins everything. Again. (It might be even worse than the Wyvern Massacre, for this time, she carries out the betrayal by herself; there's no counterpart to the Captain of the Guard here to share the betrayal with.)

Bronx gets a fairly substantial role here, both stopping Demona from smashing Elisa and Owen, and also, by his earlier attack on the tapestry, cuing Goliath and Xanatos to the discovery that something's gone wrong. It's nice to see him get something more to do than just snoozing by Hudson's recliner or doing "guard duty" over Egwardo [SPOILER] and now only the former's an option for him [/SPOILER]. Of course, in just a couple of weeks, we'll get to see him have his own adventure; something to look forward to for Bronx fans everywhere (and with one major Bronx fan actually co-writing the adventure).

I'm not sure I'd noticed this before, but Macbeth gets in the same way Demona does, via the secret passageway behind the tapestry.

During the battle scenes in 1057, we hear voices singing in a way that reminded me of the battle scenes in the movie "Excalibur" being accompanied by voices singing "O Fortuna" from "Carmina Burana". I wonder if that actually did inspire the singing in this episode.

I'm not sure I realized this before, but this is the episode that reveals that gargoyles weren't native only to Scotland, that they lived in other lands, with Bodhe mentioning that the gargoyles in England have been wiped out. (We later on learn, of course, that that's what the English thought, that there were some survivors in secret.) Meaning that there were gargoyles in England at one point - and maybe elsewhere....

I've mentioned this before, but note that, after Demona and her clan desert Macbeth, the English army under Canmore/the Hunter continue the war anyway, showing that Bodhe was mistaken about them having come only to wipe out the gargoyles. I don't doubt that that was a motivation (I've noted, in particular, that in actual history during this time, England's king was Edward the Confessor, a man noted for his piety - but perhaps the kind of piety that would convince him that gargoyles were demonic creatures that should be utterly destroyed), but the English had other reasons, such as, no doubt, seeing Canmore as likely to be in their debt if they helped him to the throne. (And Canmore had those relatives in England whom Macbeth mentioned in the previous episode - including, in both actual history and Shakespeare's play, Earl Siward of Northumbria, who led the English forces during the invasion.) Macbeth certainly had no intention of abandoning the gargoyles, and rightfully so (Greg Weisman pointed out that when he was looking thoughtful after Luach's outburst, it wasn't because he was wondering whether to do it or not, but pondering Luach's rashness - incidentally, in actual history, Lulach - as he was called - was nicknamed "the Simple", which might be at play here. We'll be seeing an even more prominent example of a Scottish king's historical nickname when we get to the "Timedancer" story in "Clan-Building").

Macbeth's crown has a "Celtic cross" design on it.

For all the seriousness of this episode, there's one moment that provokes a smile - to me, at least - when Demona tells Macbeth that he's not fooling anyone by wearing the Hunter's mask. I think it's obvious to the audience that it's Macbeth; for a start, he's wearing Macbeth's familiar outfit from "Enter Macbeth" and "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time". (Greg Weisman remarked on this one that they never seriously intended to make the present-day Hunter's identity a mystery; the real mystery was intended to be "Why is Macbeth wearing the Hunter's mask when all the previous Hunters in this story were his enemies?")

Probably the most dramatic moment in their confrontation: Demona realizing that for Macbeth, the "if he kills her, he'll die as well" clause in the terms of their immortality isn't a deterrent, but an incentive. She looks definitely alarmed at that.

We get another rare humorous moment for this episode (well, I think it's funny, if in a bit of a "dark comedy" way) when Goliath tries to stop Demona and Macbeth's fight, and they both simultaneously punch him.

The Weird Sisters telling Macbeth to sleep struck me as a clear contrast to the "Sleep no more" part of Shakespeare's play, though I don't know if it was intentional. (And we've also got the uncommented-on element, but there if you look real hard, that since Demona was hatched from a gargoyle egg, the rule about only one not "of woman born" can kill Macbeth holds true in "Gargoyles" as well as in Shakespeare. Something I've mentioned before a few times, but which still really appeals to me.)

(And I really hope that Greg Weisman and Dynamite will get to do the "Weird Macbeth" story, something I've been keen on ever since finding out about it at the 2001 Gathering. I can imagine it being billed as "'Gargoyles' meets 'Classic Comics'".)

"City of Stone" was truly a fine story, one of the best in "Gargoyles", and I've enjoyed getting to watch it again.

FAVORITE LINES.

GRUOCH (to Demona): Go and search for your kin. Search until you and your kind are a nightmare memory!

DEMONA: Let's not start that again. You blame me, I blame you. Aren't you tired of talking about it?

GOLIATH: No! Killing her won't solve anything. Death never does.

WEIRD SISTERS: He's right, Macbeth.

LUNA: Duncan was afraid your father would make you king. Did your father's death stop you from being king?

MACBETH: No!

SELENE: You wanted revenge for your father. Did Gillecomgain's death settle that score?

MACBETH: No.

LUNA: Did your own death save your son Luach from Canmore?

MACBETH: No.

GOLIATH: Death is never the answer. Life is.

MACBETH: I'm just, so tired.

LUNA: Then sleep, Macbeth.

PHOEBE: You must give them the code.

DEMONA: I will have vengeance for the betrayal of my clan. Vengeance for my pain.

SELENE: But who betrayed your clan?

LUNA: And who caused this pain?

DEMONA: The Vikings destroyed my clan.

SELENE: Who betrayed the castle to the Vikings?

DEMONA: The Hunter hunted us down.

PHOEBE: Who created the Hunter?

DEMONA: Canmore destroyed the last of us.

LUNA: Who betrayed Macbeth to Canmore?

GOLIATH: Your thirst for vengeance has only created more sorrow. End the cycle, Demona. Give us the code.

DEMONA (tears forming in her eyes): The access code is "alone".

XANATOS (to Bronx, after punching in the access code in time to thwart Demona's scheme): What are you looking at?

DEMONA: You tricked me! None of this was my fault! It was the humans, always the humans!

GOLIATH: You have learned nothing.

DEMONA: Nothing but your lies! I will still have my revenge!

{Phoebe and Selene grab hold of her arms; Demona struggles to break free from their grip, but in fain.}

LUNA: You are tired. Sleep.

{Demona falls to the floor, now asleep. Goliath stares down at her, looking almost like a "Gargoyle of Very Little Brain" as he scratches his head.}

GOLIATH: What do we do with them?

LUNA: We have written their stories.

PHOEBE: They are our responsibility.

SELENE: They are our children.

{The Weird Sisters begin to glow.}

GOLIATH: Wait! Who are you? What are you?

LUNA (as the Weird Sisters vanish, taking Demona and Macbeth with them): That is a story for another day.

XANATOS (to Owen, after the spell is broken and the gargoyles are rejoicing over Elisa being freed): You'll forgive me if I just shake your hand?

XANATOS: Goliath, we made a good team. You know, all this time, I've wondered why I let you creatures live. Now I know. You come in handy, now and then.

GOLIATH (with a smile): As do you - occasionally.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Dec 5, 2024 7:52:21 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

"Jentry Chau VS The Underworld" is put on Netflix:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4FARG5dEx4

Anyone else catching it?
Antiyonder
posted @ Thu, Dec 5, 2024 7:36:32 pm EST from 68.119.3.1

CRAIG> Thank you, and I really appreciate the conversation you provide.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Thu, Dec 5, 2024 2:51:38 pm EST from 67.189.200.184

Bishansky > [SPOILER]
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. That makes sense, and I do appreciate a good psychological explanation.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Thu, Dec 5, 2024 2:47:28 pm EST from 69.118.30.106

I went to the comic shop yesterday to pick up my hard copies, but they informed that Dynamite's physical shipment was going to be late and that I should check back by Friday. Ah well, thank goodness I had the digital arrive over night!

Some rambling observations on Quest #5:[SPOILER]

A bit of a missed opportunity not to see the new Three Keys highlighted on the inside cover as we discovered them. Of course, that could have led to possibly spoiling them in earlier issues, but if Cleopatra's Necklace was saved for #5, then we could have gone with Puck's Flute in #4, the shaft of Gungnir in #3, with the spear-head in #1 and #2. I guess we could have had the whole spear as a fifth variant, but that risks spoiling the plot, especially if other Keys get shuffled to earlier issues. Again, rambling. Nothing much to see here, lol.

Anyways, to the actual issue:

Speaking of the Lance of Fate, Gungnir is drawn differently in this issue. Now, its definitely an out-of-universe example of Qualano and Gambone's artistic differences, but given that Moss's take on the Spear in Dark Ages also contrasted to what we later saw in Quest, I like the idea of the Spear fluctuating, which reminds me of the Phoenix Gate's own fluctuating size in the original series.

The Flute also seems to change size and length between Moss, Qualano, and Gambone.

Speaking of artistic differences, Gambone's art showcases Demona's wings accurately. I've enjoyed Qualano's art throughout this arc, but this detail was slowly became a bit of a irk as the issues continued, considering how many references we have available to us now. Even online, one can watch the show, look at pictures of the NECA figure, the Diamond bust -- even Kenner got the wings right, lol.

Vicky: Deep frying turkeys is a thing in the States for Thanksgiving, but its not universal. Most notably because they have a tendency of becoming culinary cautionary tales even when you aren't getting attacked by an immortal gargoyle harnessing the Three Keys to Power. Mostly because of individuals that don't consider how liquid displacement works when a turkey is submerged in boiling oil. Or they forgot to thaw the bird. But usually it's from not paying attention, and/or reading the instructions carefully. Broadway's not exaggerating when he points out how lucky they were the whole place didn't catch fire. There's plenty of disaster videos online. (My family opts for smoking the turkey overnight.)

Craig: Didn't catch the Robbins's Maester bit until you pointed it out. Good eye.

Shari and Sevarius are down, and I like the look on Thailog's face. He's probably putting two and two together, realizing that he did perhaps underestimate Demona back when they made their Nightstone-Gungnir deal.

Goliath getting genre-savvy with the "Temptation" loophole was certainly distracting enough to keep me from considering what else Demona planned.

Demona's surprise to seeing Angela call her out instantly to Quest #1, where she steeled herself with "No. Not yet." Again, I'm enjoying Gambone's take on the characters, but I wonder if Qualano's take on it would have connected the two moments more poignantly. Anyways, Demona's reaction is akin to being caught wrapping a birthday present by the recipient of that gift. Considering that enslaving all of humanity is that gift to make-up a thousand missed birthdays, Demona's enthusiasm is terrifying. I mean she's twirling around the parapets! She hasn't been this happy since swinging Macbeth around in 1057.

I can very much hear Marina Sirtis and Keith David in their "compromise" back-and-forth.

Matt: Perhaps Angela just doesn't have the shared experience with Xanatos as the rest of the Manhattan Clan? Throughout the World Tour, no doubt Goliath and Elisa referred to him by his last name, so maybe there's not to this. I know they encountered him directly in Arizona, but I can't recall if he was ever addressed on a first name basis there. I am due to rewatch that episode, so it'll be fun to revisit her first interactions with him. I do like Craig's interpretation of the interaction.

But yes, Angela takes advantage as a Magistra really quickly. I think Angela is often perceived as naïve from the fans, but in this issue she is efficiently pragmatic. Even when her motives are altruistic, I can only wonder how Goliath must be feeling if daughter continues to emulate mother.

I think the term Rhydderch is only brought up in the present day whenever Coldstone has been part of the conversation, which makes some sense to me since he and Coldfire and Coldsteel didn't integrate into the modern era with the rest of the Manhattan Clan. They were stuck in a cybernetic shadow of the 10th Century, so that tracks for me.

It's a comic, but I could swear I heard Coldfire's robotic neck gears when her head spun she heard her mate's ask Goliath to consider the "potential advantages".

As mentioned by others, Coldfire really does steal every scene she's in with this issue.

And cue, Gnash's quip about staying back, which AGAIN, I should have considered what that meant. But I did not.

LaGuardia Airport. I'm curious if the face of the terminal shown is consistent with the look of the airport from the 90s, given that it had some renovations in the last decade. I've only flown into it once in 2017, so I didn't have much of a good look. Will have to do some research before I take a stab at its GargWiki page.

Love the "Ozymandias" reference. The poem is from 1818, but it's also a fun little callback to Greg Weisman's behind-the-scenes connection to the DC comic, Watchmen

Kinda surprised none of the background characters we've seen in the show so far don't work at the airport -- everyone looks to be a new face here.

Much like how even Robbins became enchanted, Demona+ pulling off an English "Fulminos Venite" attack is another demonstration of her holding the Three Keys, like the Archmage+.

I love how Broadway is on the same page as Angela.

Good thing Demona didn't eat any of the talismans. Of course, I'd be curious if she could survive that kinda thing, given the terms of her immortality.

I would like to one day revisit the through-line where Goliath and Demona mention the Wyvern Massacre. From "Awakening: Part Five" to "Reawakening" to "City of Stone" Part Four (I think) to perhaps here. I might be missing others. But the nerves are no less sensitive for Demona, and it proves to be the final distraction to wrestle the Three Keys from her.

With Coldfire clearly more into her own than she's ever been in the 20th Century, I am curious if Angela will pick up a thing or two. Perhaps Angela will emulate more than one of her rookery mothers.

Is that Matt Bluestone with Maria Chavez?

Forgot to mention this with Quest #4, but its nice to see the Jogger recovered from his injuries in "A Little Crazy"

I too would have liked some discussion about potentially preventing the energies from escaping into three New Keys once more (I particularly liked the take them to Avalon theory mentioned here the last few months), but Owen's smile with the broken flute perhaps means that they are not completely powerless. I mean, even the Phoenix Gate proved to be functional 1,020 years broken into two. I like Masterdramon's thought that perhaps one of the Keys -- the Flute? Hence Owen's smile? -- might be a keystone to Mab's prison.

Still no Commitment Ceremony (not a complaint, it'll happen given enough issues, and I'm happy to know we're not done yet!), but I'm pretty sure Angela's no longer keen on Demona attending.

Tin Man taking it up a notch with a phone call. That's very exciting. Look out for those long-distance charges, Xanatos d:

On to Coldstone. Sigh. Matt wrote it far more eloquently, but yes I am also reminded of individuals who (evidently) do not see a conflict in promoting or voting for people (or policies) that are detrimental to many of their family and friends' livelihoods and lives. After all the hardship that the character has endured since his resurrection, he's never been less sympathetic than in this Arc. The evil invoked here is far more nuanced than Demona's (his erosion to her corrosion), but it is no less dangerous. That being the case, I can't wait for his NECA figure to finally hit the pre-order stage. I do think about the Light-Bringers' Italian play, and if they will be a harbinger to Coldstone and Coldfire's relationship.

Now to the final scene. When the issue dropped at midnight (east coast, I believe), it wasn't yet available on my browser, but ready to read on my desktop. Thing is, the zoom capabilities on the kindle desktop app aren't as accessible as those on the browser, so sometimes details in the images can be pretty obscure if they are small enough (and that's even with the panel to panel option, compared to seeing the one or two page spread). So I admit my heart jumped when I saw the panel of Elisa firing on Bronx and Fu-Dog and the two crumpled over in an otherwise empty rookery. But THANK GOODNESS the panels and details of the picture of the gargoyle beasts being tranquilized was big enough for me to see. Otherwise that heart jump could have easily led to misled conclusions. Especially since so many of us were worried about a character (or two) meeting an untimely end.

Still, my briefest of confusions does not neglect the gut-punch those last panels brought. And to refer back to Brooklyn and Katana's conversation about their experiences in 2198, even with future-hindsight (you know what I mean. I think) there's no knowing how long Demona has Egwardo in her possession. It'd be highly unlikely that they picked up on this particular incident from 201 years' distance. Further I'm very much reminded that we only know of Gnash and Egwardo/Tachi, with no idea if Brooklyn or Katana will survive to have a third egg. Death could prevent that third egg, heartbreak and grief another, perhaps. We'll see.

And I'm happy we'll see. As Demona invokes that one Marvel Comics cover -- "The Egg and I" -- I look forward to where the story goes from here. Because this was certainly one stone-cold ending. [/SPOILER]
Phoenician
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."
posted @ Thu, Dec 5, 2024 2:24:16 pm EST from 72.216.220.229

MATTHEW - Some good comments on "City of Stone Part Three", particularly the parallel between Macbeth and Demona's alliance back in 1040 and Goliath and Xanatos's alliance in the present-day. I'd noticed the parallel between Duncan and Gillecomgain's alliance breaking up and Xanatos and Demona's alliance shattering likewise in Part Two, but hadn't considered the parallels in Part Three until you mentioned them. Good eye.

BISHANSKY - [SPOILER] And I was amused by your mention of that scene with Macbeth and Bodhe, given that I'm hoping to rewatch "City of Stone Part Four", and was planning to provide my own comments on it. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Dec 5, 2024 8:27:19 am EST from 68.99.93.213

There's been a lot of confusion out there about [SPOILER] Demona taking control of Coldfire, and the Mayan Gargoyles (I don't think she had Coldstone under control) and what I think some people didn't pick up on... the Spear targets whomever the wielder wants and Demona chose those whom she perceived as human in her warped way of thinking. In her mind, she was able to justify Coldfire's human-made shell as "human" and the Mayans similarly... it helped that they were standing against her as enemies. But, subconsciously, and considering her mixed up feelings about Goliath, she still doesn't perceive him as anything but a gargoyle... try as she might (and wow she did try there). Ditto with Angela and most of the Manhattan Clan. And as for Demona's contingencies come sunrise, keep in mind that Demona perceives herself as a gargoyle no matter what form she's in... she insisted on it back in "High Noon" and recently in "Everywhere". But the fluctuation in Demona's control came when Goliath called her on that... that's when her control began to weaken. It's all due to her messed up psyche, which is what led to her defeat.

I mean, possibly, her control of Fox and Owen also depended on how she perceived them.

Or, to bring it back to the very first question I asked in Ask Greg decades ago: https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=489

Now, this is not to attack fans who didn't get it, or who it didn't quite work for. I get it, different people have different needs and wants when it comes to storytelling. Some fans love thinking (overthinking) things and figuring these things out, others just need a little more. Sometimes I encounter fans who believe that Macbeth was going to betray Demona and that it was a mistake not to include the moment where Macbeth says as much to Bodhe after Demona leaves. For others, they can rely on the direction, the music, John Rhys-Davies acting, etc. In the end, every member of the audience is different. Some fans like things being subtle, some fans need a little bit more... or a lot more. [/SPOILER]
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Thu, Dec 5, 2024 8:18:44 am EST from 67.189.200.184

Have to have something go right before it can go wrong.

The third part really lays into the necessity of these alliances; Duncan will kill anyone he perceives as a threat to his reign and every gargoyle just for the sake of them being gargoyles. Yes, despite what his father-in-law said, I have no doubts Duncan would murder Macbeth's family out of spite. And Demona will kill man, woman, or child and anyone that would get in the way of her purge. While Greg usually has these kinds of alliances of convenience in his other shows, this is one of the few that actually means something in the long run. Spidey and Tombstone briefly teamed up to survive the Green Goblin's death trap but that barely lasted a part of the episode. Lex worked with the heroes to prevent the Reach's destruction of the Earth or Vandal assisting to prevent the spread of the Anti-Life Equation but after that was resolved it was back to the game of chess between the two sides.

Here we see that without the manipulation Xanatos and the Clan work fairly well together, a nice hint of their less tempestuous agreement and Macbeth and Demona work well alongside each other. Another nice bit of foreshadowing is Demona getting her name as a sign of respect, much like her daughter and the other Avalon clan would later. And as Todd pointed out despite being treated as monsters for so long, Demona's clan would not only be heralded as heroes but equals in the reign of Macbeth. For the first time in ages they could put aside their distrust in humans and their fear of destruction when they slept.

I've noted before that there are certain tiers in Greg's hierarchy of villains, the Light plays this the most straight with their rankings and the Illuminati certainly has something similar. For Duncan he's basically in the low end of the middle of the threat level, dangerous because he's certainly a skilled manipulator but held back and eventually undone by personal flaws, such as his paranoia. Despite it not being necessary he continues to use the Hunter persona to hunt gargoyles and despite Macbeth constantly showing his loyalty still felt the need to kill him. Unlike Vandal Savage who truly practices the notion of not destroying a valuable asset that can be used for his goals, Duncan throws away the stability of his rule to quash any threat real or imagined or slick his bloodlust. Rather appropriate that it's the swing of his sword that kills him in the end.

Of course there's still the matter of Canmore, but that's something I'll elaborate on later.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Thu, Dec 5, 2024 3:42:03 am EST from 135.180.3.149

A double review today. First, "Gargoyles Quest" #5.

[SPOILER] The really big surprise for me was Demona's actions, once she'd gotten all the humans in Manhattan under her thrall. I was expecting her to command them to commit mass suicide or something like that, given that her main goal throughout the series was to slaughter humanity - and, while she claimed she was doing it for the sake of the gargoyle race's safety (and might even have believed it herself), it was clear that her real motive was revenge (and the desperate desire to avoid facing her responsibility for how much her own actions had played a part in it). (Something I'll say more about when I review "City of Stone Part Four".) That had certainly been her objective in "HUnter's Moon", a year before in the series' "internal chronology", and I'd seen no sign that she was reconsidering it. So keeping them alive as slaves took me by surprise. Of course, the reason she gave made sense; several billion dead humans wouldn't be good for the environment. (It reminds me of the speculation over whether her "Hunter's Moon", if it had succeeded, would have been fatal to the gargoyles once all those dead bodies started to decompose. Her schemes in "The Mirror" and "City of Stone" - smaller-scale ones, admittedly - probably raised less of that problem; Demona was probably imagining Puck getting rid of the humans by magically disintegrating them, and the petrified humans she slaughtered in "City of Stone" would be mere stone fragments - assuming they didn't change back in the daytime, and that possibility is gruesome enough that I hope they didn't.) Of course, it also ensured that the human population of New York (including the major human cast like Elisa) would survive.

I got a kick out of the nod to "Temptation" when Goliath tries to free Elisa - and discovers that Demona had evidently prepared for that stratagem this time around.

There's a neat piece of irony (if a small one); Demona, for all her hatred and scorn towards humans, quotes a piece of human poetry as she eagerly celebrates her triumph. (She also clearly forgot - assuming she'd read the poem - that things didn't go well for the ruler who made that boast.)

I'd noticed the echoes of the "Religious Studies 101" radio play throughout this story, and was delighted that one I was hoping for appeared in this issue - and even closer to the original than I'd dared hope - "I am not the only one who reeks of humanity, am I - Dominique?" As I said before, the irony that the gargoyle who really hates humans turns into one regularly is just too great to leave out.

My speculation on the fate of the Three New Keys to Power turned out to be wrong; the clan destroyed them, if admitting that that could lead to three new keys arising - probably not for a while, of course.

It turns out that our fears that one of the clan would be a casualty did not come to pass - to our relief. But there's still the cost. Coldstone is exposed as a traitor and banished. But, more significantly, Demona now has Egwardo. The clan might not get to be there for the hatching after all. So the "fatal twist" we'd expected after seeing the Manhattan gargoyles talking with such hope about the hatching came true in a different way - and it gives Demona a consolation prize, despite her defeat. Almost a "Xanatos Tag" for her.

An effective ending to the arc. And now we wait a couple of weeks for Bronx's story. [/SPOILER]

I also rewatched "City of Stone Part Three", continuing Macbeth and Demona's story, complete with one of the biggest Shakespearean moments in both the multi-parter and "Gargoyles" in general.

The opening is fun; Owen reverts back to flesh and blood, desperately delivering his warning to Xanatos - then calms down and resumes his regular matter-of-fact disposition. After which he and Xanatos set to work finding a solution for the problem. I didn't realize the significance of "mixing magics is dangerous" when I first saw it, of course (it wasn't until near the end of my first viewing of "The Gathering Part One" that I began to suspect Owen's true identity - more on that when I reach that episode), so I assumed that it referred to the spells in the Grimorum (presumably no convenient counter-spell handy, or maybe it was another of the pages that Demona tore out of the Grimorum and she burnt it to make certain she wouldn't have to worry about it being recovered). Of course, Xanatos's high-tech literal fulfilling of the "ending clause" was more fun.

Matthew brought up how paranoid Duncan was, and we saw that when we switched to Scotland in 1040. Macbeth saves his life, showing that he's loyal - and all it takes for Duncan to forget that is the words of three old women whom he's just met - and maybe also Macbeth pleading for some gargoyles' lives. It shows just how suspicious and distrustful at heart Duncan must have been.

And we get the Weird Sisters' "cauldron" scene, which reverses the play neatly; instead of manipulating Macbeth to move against Duncan, their words manipulate Duncan to move against Macbeth.

When Macbeth spares the young Canmore, he announces "I'll have no more blood on my hands". I wonder if that expression was intended as a nod towards the "blood-stained hands" imagery in Shakespeare's play. (I've noted another such possible moment in Part Four - more about that when I get to it.)

One of the big moments of this episode for me is when Macbeth's human subjects cheer Demona at his coronation, and after a moment of astonishment, she actually smiles. She briefly gets to experience being loved by humans [SPOILER] and being genuinely loved, not magically compelled to do so [/SPOILER] - and then, seventeen yeas later, she'll throw it all away. She really is her own worst enemy.

Side-note: I'm not sure whether "City of Stone" or "Hunter's Moon" is the more appropriate story for this reflection, but I've had one thought about the Hunters (in general). One of the core elements of the Hunters is that they're regular humans with good equipment and training - a sort of "larger-than-life mundane" sort of adversary. And they're also (especially in the cases of Gillecomgain and the Canmore trio) driven by a traumatic event that befell them in childhood. These two traits, together, suggest a darker, more villainous version of Batman. And we know that the production team was worried that "Gargoyles" might be seen as a rip-off of "Batman: TAS". I can't help wondering whether making the Hunters feel a bit like "Batman gone bad" must have seemed all too tempting as a result. (And, of course, the first issue of "Here in Manhattan" would go for a more explicit echo in that exchange between Goliath and Elisa.)

One trait of the Weird Sisters I really enjoyed in "City of Stone" was the way in which they keep appearing as seeming extras, such as maidservants in the medieval scenes, or three policewomen calming down an alarmed man (who looked like Billy and Susan's father, by the way).

Part Three did a great job of continuing the story and ending on a really big cliffhanger, as Demona raises her mace....

FAVORITE LINES.

MACBETH: They're cousins. They should be friends.

DUNCAN: Yes, well, some cousins are not that close.

WEIRD SISTERS: Double, double, toil and trouble/ Fire burn and cauldron bubble. All hail, Duncan! King of Scotland, and father of the king hereafter! All hail, Macbeth! King of Scotland, and father of the king hereafter!

DUNCAN: You speak treason, old crone!

MACBETH: You are but half-right, good mothers. Duncan is the right and proper king.

LUNA: King now he is, but each of you in turn shall be king.

MACBETH: I say thee nay, Weird Sisters. Prince Canmore is destined to be king after Duncan.

LUNA: You would lecture us on fate?

MACBETH: You! You are the answer!

DEMONA: I am uninterested in the question.

MACBETH: Humans will learn to respect you.

DEMONA: I would rather they feared me.

MACBETH: They'll do that too - Demona.

DEMONA: Demona? I like the sound of that.

MACBETH: I hereby declare Demona my primary advisor.

{The humans in the great hall cheer, to Demona's initial astonishment, then delight.}

GOLIATH: What is Elisa doing here?

BROOKLYN: She doesn't look happy.

XANATOS: Owen can have that effect on people.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Dec 4, 2024 7:26:19 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

My Thoughts

[SPOILER] Great final issue of Quest but the ending was heart breaking.

I loved that Angela had a lot to do here, she was brilliant.

Demona's plan is in full swing.

Angela hears the music and Broadway has to leave the turkey. I assume deep frying a turkey is pretty normal for Thanksgiving.

Turns out Robbins is effected by the spell, I assume it's because this spell focuses more on hearing than sight, so a deaf person would probably be immune to Demona's spell.

We see that Shari and Sevarius are also under Demona's spell

Goliath tries to get Elisa out of Demona's spell trick that was used in Temptation but it doesn't work.

I absolutely love Demona's reaction when Angela confronts her.

Demona leaves and orders Xanatos to cover her by bringing out the steel clan robots. But then Angela uses her quick thinking and orders Xanatos to dismiss the robots.

It was pretty weird that Angela called him David and not Xanatos, maybe she was being polite.

Then Coldstone tells Goliath that maybe leaving the humans under Demona's spell is a good thing for the clan, and that's when Coldfire suspects her mate has betrayed the clan by siding with Demona. I just love Coldfire's reaction.

Coldfire uses her spiritualism again to track Demona to the airport. So Demona wants to use a airplane to spread her evil.

The clan arrive and Demona tells the humans to protect her, So Brooklyn tells Katana, Gnash, Lex, Broadway and Angela to hold back the humans.

Coldstone, Coldfire, Turquesa and Jade help Goliath stop Demona but due to there human influence, they end up under Demona's spell too.

Love the dialogue between Goliath and Demona, Demona said some pretty dark things like wanting to torture Elisa.

Angela has to leave Brooklyn's team to go help her Father. She tells Broadway that she needs but doesn't finish her sentence as he knew what she's going to do but Brooklyn didn't and Broadway tells him, 'family time'. and i'm like YES!!!!

Angela has to take out Coldfire and uses Demona's magic to obey to her instead.

Demona tells her Daughter not to interfere but Angela says she will always stand against her evil plans but will embrace her if she decides to change her path to good and she helps take down Demona.

Coldfire uses her gifts to change the humans back to normal and the 3 keys are destroyed but there will be 3 new keys.

Brentwood said "nice while it lasted" when Shari and Sevarius changed back to normal. Hmmm interesting!!!!!

Demona escapes, sadly there is a mistake, the speech bubble should be on Angela not Turquesa.

Jade and Turquesa finally back home, Zafiro and Obsidiana are there too and not very happy, but they will understand once they tell them their journey.

Sadly, Broadways turkey didn't make it but then we see him hugging Angela who is upset which is understandable, she wanted her Mother to know or even attend her commitment ceremony but it looks certainly she's off the guest list now and :-

Coldstone too now, as Coldfire knows he's a traitor and he should be banished, he accepts it, he could only return when he's deemed worthy, yeah no chance

I expect Coldsteel will be happy once he hears they've split up. LOL

Owen gets his broken flute back but he's smirking, so he knows something.

Then the heart breaking moment, Goliath, Elisa and Coldfire hear Katana scream and she, Brooklyn and Gnash are sitting there staring at an empty space where Egwardo should be. It turns out that Elisa under Demona spell stole the egg and gave it to Demona.

Egwardo won't be having the perfect hatching.

Then the last page we see Demona with the Egg (she wants to raise it herself) with Antoinette and Coldstone!!!! who's still sticking by Demona, so he's not interested in redeeming himself right now. Should of switched him off and put him in storage somewhere.

So Demona has won this round.

I know it's canon in training but on the timeline, the eggs are stolen in 2008 as well, think the rookery needs better security

The Winter Special is next so I expect there won't be any spoilers as it only focuses on Bronx, so we won't know that if they get egg back or not. [/SPOILER]
VickyUK - [vickysunseeker at aol dot com]
posted @ Wed, Dec 4, 2024 4:47:35 pm EST from 86.166.19.27

Thoughts on Quest #5.

[SPOILER]
No Clayton Crain cover this time around, but two by Drew Moss (although the credits still list Crain for the main cover...hopefully that's fixed for the collected edition). The main A-cover is eerily intimate, the way Goliath and Demona's hands are intertwined. They could be dancing if their faces weren't so angry.

The combined artwork of Pasquale Qualano and Gerardo Gambone does feel like a slight step down from Qualano's solo work on the prior four issues, but it's by no means bad. Definitely felt like a bit more of a manga influence, to me (particularly with those little emotion lines or whatever they're called). There are some very goofy expressions here and there, such as Gnash on page 3, and Brooklyn on page 9. But there are also some genuinely great expressions, particularly on Angela. Again, I'm not sure how much of this was Gambone doing totally original drawings as opposed to inking Qualano's pencils (do comic book artists even still draw in pencil anymore?). I do miss the creepy B&W reverse/negative effect on Demona from last issue.

And we're back to usual colorist Giovanna La Pietra, after a one-issue break.

I found Travis Marshall's bits here very amusing. I have to believe that Greg was at least subconsciously thinking about the great Kent Brockman moment, "I for one welcome our new insect overlords."

What is with Robbins calling Hudson "Maester" instead of "Magister"? As far as I can tell, "maester" is a word made up by George R. R. Martin for his 'Song of Ice & Fire' series. Is this a typo? I guess it's possible that Robbins read 'A Game of Thrones,' which came out in 1996, and is such a fan that he incorporated it into his vocabulary even when enthralled...but somehow I don't think that's what Greg was going for.

Brentwood cracks me up in this one. And Thailog looks genuinely confused, an emotion he's probably not overly used to. Not sure why Sevarius is blonde though.

I love the moment of Goliath trying to pull the "Temptation" trick on Elisa. It reminds me of Greg's comment about writing Goliath as if he's Winnie the Pooh. He immediately goes to the obvious solution that he's seen work before...but it's also a very smart thing to try.

I'm glad Demona at least referenced Todd's theory about making all the humans walk into the East River (admittedly a somewhat intuitive story idea since we're dealing with the Pied Piper's flute here). And I applaud Demona's environmentalism in not wanting to pollute the ocean. See, even she has her redeeming points!

This isn't the first time Demona has set herself up for failure (nor likely the last), but it does seem a remarkable act of hubris for her to think she can keep humanity enslaved indefinitely, even with all of her own species against her. Clearly, this is NOT a sustainable situation. But then again, the way she acts at the end of the issue (getting ahead of myself) in her own little Xanatos tag, maybe she never really planned on the enthrallment lasting for long.

This "kinder, gentler" Demona is interesting. The theory that this is an olive branch to Angela is worth considering--"I won't kill your little human friends, see how compassionate I am?" Of course, it's worth noting that Disney, which seems even more inclined to censorship the past few years than ever before (see the recent Fantagraphics Carl Barks reprints), probably wouldn't let Demona do anything particularly violent with her newfound thralls. Realistically, I have to imagine Demona would at least make humans fight to the death for her entertainment or something. It's tough to know how much of this issue's take on Demona was Greg's first choice if given total freedom, and how much is him working around the restrictions placed on him and making the best of it. Demona does have some great lines though ("Seems a lovely compromise"; "*Sigh* There's just no pleasing you").

Coldfire and Angela do both get to shine in this issue, as Matt said, which is appreciated. I love the bit where Goliath is ready to just use brute force against the Steel Clan (Winnie the Pooh mentality again), and Angela has already processed the situation and is thinking outside the box. And I love her calling Xanatos "David." Almost like she's asserting dominance by addressing him so informally.

Not sure I'm crazy about "Rydderch" continuing to be used as if it's a term that's been there all along. But I guess I'll get used to it. It just feels kind of unnatural to me.

A minor nitpick, but that shot at the bottom of page 7 makes it look like all the gargoyles can just takeoff at will (the way Coldstone and Coldfire can with their jetpacks), as opposed to having to catch air currents. It's a nice action shot of everyone together, but it's marred by that lapse in logic.

I have to say, I don't buy the bit about Coldfire, Jade, and Turquesa being enthralled by the spell. It leads to a good philosophical argument between Goliath and Demona, and some good lines from Goliath (who is uncharacteristically cutting in his verbal attacks). But under the strict language of the spell cast last issue, which seems pretty specific, I just don't see the logic. She said, "All HUMANS crave to serve commands," not "anyone who isn't a gargoyle," or "anyone who has parts made by a human, or happens to possess something made by a human." I feel the spell should have been phrased differently if this is what Greg meant to set up.

I do wonder what Demona's "contingencies" were for when the sun rose. It feels like a missed opportunity that we didn't get to see that. I agree with Matthew the Fedora Guy that the wrap-up felt a bit rushed. It's telling that, in his "thought experiment" from a few months ago, Greg gave both Issue 4 and Issue 5 their own individual 22-minute episodes. I think this part of the story needed that extra time to breathe (I really wonder why this series wasn't six issues). Demona's reign of terror is over before it really has a chance to seem like much of a threat, honestly. (I'm not a sadist, I swear, but with Demona's big comeback and a threat of this magnitude, I never felt much peril.) And Jade and Turquesa end up being pretty pointless additions to this story (I still like my idea of incorporating the pendants, darnit!). Other than witnessing Demona's initial theft of the spear in Argentina (and apparently not doing anything about it), and finally being reunited with the Mayan Sun Amulet, they really contributed nothing to this story. Likewise, the Thanksgiving setting felt mostly like window dressing, and Robbins's appearance amounted to a cameo. I would have liked to see all of those elements get more time to breathe.

I'm not so sure about "talismen"; the plural of "talisman" is "talismans." Can anyone say if this is some archaic usage?

On page 18, is that...a different Eyrie Building security guard from the one we usually see?

And yes, that seems to be a particularly egregious lettering error, having Turquesa refer to Demona as "mother." Hopefully that gets corrected for the trade.

Love the enigmatic Owen smile, although I'm not sure what to make of it.

I'm not sure where Coldstone's character goes from here. As others have said, he's off to a pretty lousy start in terms of seeking redemption. He has ping-ponged between "good" and "morally grey" several times throughout the series. I'm curious to see if he just drinks the Demona Kool-Aid at this point and goes fully evil, for awhile anyway. At this point, it would probably be the most compelling direction to take his character.

That ending is certainly chilling. Poor Elisa. Demona wouldn't have been in character if she hadn't used the enthrallment to do at least one truly despicable thing to Elisa. And hey, we finally got the theft of the gargoyle egg as teased in the solicitation for Gargoyles #1! All things are true, even if it takes 24 or so issues to get there.

As far as Antoinette, I fully agree with Bishansky's assessment, and had similar thoughts last night after reading the issue. As Masterdramon said, Antoinette's conclusion that humanity is irredeemable (if that is indeed where her head is) feels uncomfortably easy to relate to these days. Tempting, even. But of course, Goliath would remind us that there is good and evil in all of us, human and gargoyle alike.

Stay safe out there, people. Looking forward to the Winter Special, and whatever comes next.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Wed, Dec 4, 2024 3:31:48 pm EST from 69.118.30.106

Re: ANTOINETTE... [SPOILER] Given current events, I hardly think it takes much of a stretch to come to the conclusion that the human race just kinda blows. #DemonaWasRight is a tag I've never put much personal stock in, but it's a lot harder to argue against it at this particular moment. Obviously this was all planned and written long before the election, but I can't help but read her motivations within that particular lens. [/SPOILER]

Re: THE KEYS... [SPOILER] Demona got lucky that this time, all Three Keys were ones she could access within the space of a single miniseries. I doubt she will remain so fortunate the next time 'round. Her spell may allow her to IDENTIFY the New-New set, but that doesn't mean she can snap them up easily. That being said...I'm wondering if one of the next Keys may turn out to be a keystone for Mab's prison, meaning removing it has further consequences... [/SPOILER]
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"You said everything has a name. I'll name this ability of mine too. 'Stone Free.' Because I'll become free of this ocean of stone." - Jolyne Cujoh
posted @ Wed, Dec 4, 2024 2:29:37 pm EST from 76.173.137.179

I have a lot of thoughts, many of which are still processing. But I have some very immediate thoughts about Antoinette Dracon.

[SPOILER] I've seen some of the recent theories. Demona has her under a spell. Antoinette is the reincarnation of Hyppolyta. I know that after Anastasia and Owen turned out to be who they were, some fans look for that everywhere. But I don't believe it's that. I think Antoinette is exactly who we perceive her to be. I don't think there's anything otherworldly or supernatural there. Here's what I think her deal is and one reason why she's on board with this. As a long time Gargoyles fan, I've been reading some weird takes and outlooks from Demona Apologists for years. Not years... DECADES! A lot of it is, frankly, quite disturbing.

Combine this with where Antoinette comes from... scum of the Earth. The worst of society. She grew up around terrible people who did terrible things, and is a terrible person who has done terrible things. I can see this manifesting as misanthropy. Again, look at the Demona Apologists out there (most of whom likely don't come from crime families). And you don't need to be from a crime family to come to the conclusion that humanity is terrible.

Honestly, I think she's the most dangerous Dracon. [/SPOILER]
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Wed, Dec 4, 2024 1:08:15 pm EST from 67.189.200.184

My thoughts of Quest #5. Usually I put my thoughts out without having chatted with anyone else about the story, but this time I couldn't resist some late night chat with Greg B and Phoen shortly after the digital copy dropped and we had all read it. Still, my thoughts here are (mostly) my own and I'm eager to hear everyone else's thoughts!

[SPOILER] - We start right were we left off. Nice call backs to the old "What sorcery is this?!" "Sorcery, indeed." lines. And the Clan all starts to react to the music and the TV reports. I knew Broadway's turkey was going to be the first price to pay in this one. I like Gnash's "That's weird." and Lex's "Something odd's happening here - as usual." Robins seems to be effected, so there goes that theory. And fun to see Thailog and Brentwood's reactions. Might've been neat to see something similar down in the Labyrinth, but I suppose they were not a part of this story and there is only so much space.

- Goliath tries the same trick on Elisa pulled that she pulled with him back in "Temptation", but it doesn't work. So there goes that theory. I'm curious about Elisa's response. Did Demona specifically forbid her from shrugging off the mind control this way or is the spell upon all humans just too powerful for that to work?

- The clan convenes and compares notes. I like that Brook and Katana's knowledge of how things are in 2198 is acknowledged while they also admit that they don't have the whole story. Just like the reader, they know it'll all be resolved in the end, but who knows of the cost we'll have to pay to get there. It's a lesson that I (and also B & K) were about to learn all too well. But we'll get there.

- First time we've seen the Steel Clan in a while, especially en masse. However, as quickly as they appear they are dismissed due to Angela's quick thinking. Phoen pointed out to me that Angela is the only one in this story really utilizing the spell aside from Demona. And she's quick to do it. While she's clearly on Goliath's side, she is so much her mother's daughter. I find it a little jarring that she calls Xanatos "David" though. Few call him by his first name and I don't think any gargoyle ever has. It's such an intimate way of addressing him. Kinda weird.

- Coldstone. Oh Coldstone. I'm not sure I've ever been so annoyed with a character as I am with him. He's trying to justify Demona's actions and convince Goliath they should go along with this, of course. That's bad, but what really gets me is at no point in this story does he even stop to consider anyone else's perspective. He joined Demona under the condition that the clan would not be hurt, but now they are hurting and he seems okay with it. He sees Elisa as part of the Clan, but has no problem with her being a slave to Demona's will. He even jeopardizes his own relationship to Coldfire without even an apology. And even when Demona's full intentions are revealed and even when he is, rightfully, banished from the clan, he still goes right back to her side. He's so disappointing here. Frankly, he's reminding me way too much of certain people in our American Society today. The facts are right in front of him and he refuses to see or care. He supports someone out of willful ignorance and maybe some spite. He doesn't seem to be bothered about the effects it has on his family and friends and relationships. It's frustrating and sad. And, in many ways, it seems far worse than anything Coldsteel tried to pull. Antoinette too, seems to be making confusing and self-destructive choices. I thought she was perhaps just in the dark about Demona's ultimate goals, but Demona spells it all out to her very clearly here and she seems unfazed. I don't even think Coldstone or Antoinette are bad people, they are just so deep in. Enthralled really. Evil succeeds when good people do nothing, I guess. Hits hard because it hits so close to home.

- Anyway, Coldstone makes his plea and I like that Coldfire immediately reacts to this behavior. She knows what is up, but they have more immediate problems. I also like that Goliath is having none of this nonsense from Coldstone. He, rightfully, isn't going to give an inch on this. But back to Coldfire. In many ways, i consider her to be the main hero of this story. Goliath and Angela play their roles, but Coldfire has a lot of great moments here. I love that she's growing from the cold, digital entity we see in "Mayday" to the more warm, spiritual being she is re-becoming. It's a very cool arc. And I love the visuals of Desdemona when she uses her spiritual powers. Very cool.

- Gnash has a couple fun moments: "This must be bad. No one is telling me to stay home with Bronx and Fu-Dog..." In hindsight, maybe it would've better if he had, though I suppose at this point the damage has been done. Later, his "You shoved me first." got a laugh from me.

- Guess the Gargoyles Universe needed its own version of the MCU's airport battle. Demona is impatient to spread her influence faster. I wonder how far her reach is at this point, and what direction she was planning on heading. It's still epic to see the entire Manhattan Clan in flight together. A force to be reckoned with for sure. Predictably, Demona orders the humans to attack the Clan, and predictably they have to fight them without hurting them. This again reminds me of Captain America: Civil War. Brooklyn takes charge of splitting their forces. I'm intrigued about how and why he split their numbers the way he did. He and Goliath as "team captains" makes sense, but why the rest? Something to think about, but in some ways, the gargoyles he sends with Goliath are ones that might be most sympathetic to Demona's cause, if not her methods. Not mention, they are the ones most susceptible to Demona's power. I like that everyone here is also so connected to humanity. Their bodies (the ColdDuo), their pendents (the Mayans), their love (Goliath), and their daytime form (Demona). All the gargoyles that don't reek of humanity are battling the humans. Demona's "The stink of your human is in your hair. On your lips. Everywhere." is both creepy and interesting. Gargoyles and their oft ignored sense of smell. Reminds me of Yama smelling Fang. I also like Demona using the Three Keys for their individual powers (Gugnir casting lightning). I wonder what generated the shield later though. Goliath's hold on the Flute and refusing to let go reminds me of a similiar battle he had with the Archmage+. Maybe he was remembering that battle and hoping for a similiar result. He also throws a lot of rough lines at Demona about Dominique and Wyvern. I think he knows that if he gets her pissed off enough, she will lose control. And her control appears to be slipping, especially with the arrival of Angela for "family time". Finally, the Keys are taken from her, but before destroying them Coldstone again uses her gifts to release all the humans from the spell. Apparently without ill-effect or even memory of what happened. I was a little worried of what all of this would do for the gains made in human-gargoyle relations, but there seems to be little trouble there. I'm not sure destroying the Keys was a good move since that will just generate three new new keys for someone to use. I think it would've been wiser to split these up. Keep one in the castle. Send one to Avalon. Maybe destroy the third or disassemble it as the Gugnir was. Something like that. Oh well.

- Demona escapes (as ?Turquesa? points out?) I'm thinking that bubble was supposed to go to Angela. Turquesa would not call Demona mother!

- And we enter the conclusion. I was having a lot of happy feelings here. We had all thought someone was going to die, but no, the Clan made it through whole. Turquesa and Jade make it home with the Mayan Sun Amulet and we get a Zafiro and Obsidiana cameo. Love that! Lex and Amp are going to have a phone call. Wow. Big step. Broadway's turkey is ruined and Angela is understandably upset about things, but all seems good and I was feeling relieved. Coldfire calls out her mate and calls for his banishment. That's a downer and well deserved. Goliath isn't happy and agrees to the banishment. He and Elisa don't seeem to have ever thought this would happen among the clan. But there is good and evil in all of us, right? Uncomfortable. I like that Coldfire assigns herself the judge on Coldstone's banishment. So far, by going right back to Demona, he's not off to a great start. Owen seems perturbed about the Flute... and then something occurs to him. We'll see how that develops.

- And then the gut punch. That scream of "NOOOOOO!!!" made my heart just drop. From Katana. From the rookery. Oh no. And Elisa remembers. How awful for her to play a part in this. She must feel terrible. But Egwardo is gone. That is just devastating to me. Losing Hudson or Brooklyn would've been awful, of course, but to take the clan's child, their future. That hurts. Now, the Clan could get the egg back. Everything could end up fine. But like Brooklyn pointed out earlier, for all we know the egg will hatch and live with Demona for decades. Ugh. All I wanted is for the egg to hatch surrounded by the Clan. That is how it was meant to be. It was to be such a moment for the Clan. Like the moment in "Reawakening" when they establish their protectorate. And now that moment is potentially gone. Egwardo might hatch with Demona instead. Might grow up with Demona. Truly heart breaking. I'm glad we got such a happy ending for Phoenix. Ending on a sad note or cliff hanger would've been rough. Not knowing when we'd get back to Gargoyles, if we ever would. While the story is paused for now, at least we know more is coming next year. Never The End! [/SPOILER]

Those are my initial thoughts, where are yours? Sorry for the random ramblings with this one. I'm trying to get my thoughts down between classes (6th Grade teacher here). A bit hard to focus.
Matt
"Human problems become gargoyle problems..."
posted @ Wed, Dec 4, 2024 12:46:23 pm EST from 204.184.178.1

MATTHEW - Thanks for your comments. The quote is from "Richard II", by the way, in which the deposed King Richard predicts that the two men who played the biggest role in deposing him - his cousin Henry Bolingbroke, who's just taken the throne as Henry IV, and his right-hand-man the Earl of Northumberland - will fall out afterwards (which they indeed do, in the next play). It struck me as echoing the falling-out between Duncan and Gillecomgain well (Shakespeare's history plays, by the way, definitely match the "medieval political drama" that you brought up earlier). I don't know if I'll have many other quotes in my upcoming reviews, but this one felt right to me.

And good analyses on the difference between Gillecomgain and Macbeth's weddings (something I hadn't given much thought to, but now notice), and Xanatos's characterization in this episode.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Dec 4, 2024 8:01:09 am EST from 68.99.93.213

One Quest ends...

[SPOILER] And another begins, how appropriate that Demona, a creature of the night would fulfill the role so many other bogeys and fiends have done and snatched a child away in the darkness. But seriously? Raise the hatchling to be your pawn? Syndrome called, he wants his revenge plot back.

I'm a little surprised on how quickly this wrapped up but I guess it was logical. It was established that Demona's influence would only spread and grow so taking her out as soon as possible was the only way to go. It reminded me a bit of the Young Justice episode "Misplaced" where once the heart of the threat was identified, both kids and adults worked to end it as quickly as possible.

I think that the bit where Coldstone and Coldfire were controlled by the powers of the Keys was to create a bit of false reassurance. The series played with Demona's wording enough to convince the reader that she was manipulating him and once the spell went into effect he had no control and that's why he accepted his banishment without protest. But no. He had full knowledge of what the secondary goal was. When conflict comes I can't see a way for redemption for our undead cyborg, he may be lucky to escape with his unlife.

Just as the previous comic reworked "The Journey", I get the feeling that the next series will rework "Ransom", in a way that's not stupid that is. Given how important Alexander is to Fox and Xanatos and their look of concern for him in their last panel, I can guess that they might just be willing to give some assistance to the clan and their quest.

Some final bits: That little smile from Owen at the end, might be that all the magic isn't gone from the flute. After the last release some of us floated the idea of Demona having the humans march into the seas as a callback to the Pied Piper, kind of amusing that Demona also toyed with the idea. And then there's the mystery of where Demona's taken the egg, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that this will be a place we haven't visited before. [/SPOILER]

Enjoyed this one, can't wait for the next!
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Wed, Dec 4, 2024 3:38:10 am EST from 135.180.3.149

Todd Jensen and anyone> Just as a reminder, those two proses Greg did relating to City of Stone:

- Traveling the city as people turned to stone:

https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=579

- And someone out of town watching the spell while still being cured. Namely to demonstrate that the sky being lit ablaze doesn't require anyone seeing it or being able to.

https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=610

As for recent stuff, [SPOILER] If nothing else than it probably isn't too surprising that Robbins is affected as the original Three Keys of Power could affected those not hearing and seeing the spell (Spell of Humility. [/SPOILER]
Antiyonder
posted @ Wed, Dec 4, 2024 1:41:08 am EST from 68.119.3.1

Good quote for the episode, Todd.

Part Two is where things really get to heat up, there's the drama with Macbeth, Gillecomgain, Gruoch and Duncan. There's strange mystery of the Weird Sisters, the dissolved partnership between Xanatos and Demona and the horror of Demona's spell seen here.

I imagined that Gillecomgain never endeared himself to any of the other nobility which is why his wedding had such a lukewarm reception while Macbeth's was treated more favorably. We start to see some of the elements of Duncan's downfall here, namely that despite his cunning and skill in manipulation his paranoia constantly seeps in. He had a strong alliance with Gillecomgain but his fear of Macbeth caused kept him from seeing the larger picture, brutal and remorseless as he was, even Gillecomgain knew that you can't kill that many of a popular house without raising questions. Duncan keeping the Hunter mask shows that his paranoia hasn't gone just yet, but I'll talk on that later.

Xanatos quipping about any landing you can walk away from and then showing the utmost concern for Fox as well as risking himself multiple times for Owen adds more depth to the guy. You brought up the line from Lex Luthor about wanting vengeance or satisfaction; what I like here is that Xanatos' challenge to Goliath isn't about saving himself but rather prioritizing saving lives, including those he cares about as well as all Manhattan. He might be amoral but he isn't monstrous and he values people like Fox and Owen. I'll compare him to Duncan and some of Greg's other villains soon enough.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Wed, Dec 4, 2024 1:34:31 am EST from 135.180.3.149

The love of wicked friends converts to fear;
That fear to hate; and hate turns one or both
To worthy danger and deserved death.

Rewatched "City of Stone Part Two" today.

I noticed that, apart from a remark about Brendan and Margot's response to the gargoyles during the bank scene, I'd focused almost entirely on the medieval flashbacks in my review of Part One yesterday, and said little or nothing about the present-day scenes. One observation that I neglected was that, although Xanatos's quest for immortality doesn't openly enter "Gargoyles" until "The Price", we get our first hint of it here, in his reason for helping Demona with what he thinks is her scheme - obtain extra life at the expense of everyone who views Demona's broadcast.

Bronx seems to suspect, from his response, that the petrified Elisa actually is her, rather than a statue of her that she'd given the gargoyles, as they initially consider (though with Goliath suspecting - correctly - that something is very wrong here). Another example of Greg Weisman's statement that he's the best judge of character in the Manhattan clan.

Jeffrey Robbins returns, to help the clan work out what's happening here; we get another good scene with him and Hudson. [SPOILER] Which feels topical now, in light of the recent developments in "Gargoyles Quest" - and the preview pages have revealed that he's not immune to Demona's spell after all, this time around. [/SPOILER]

Greg once revealed that Thailog had witnessed Demona's broadcast and was trapped in stone by night as well as day, as a result. That certainly gave new meaning to the moment at Robbins' house where Goliath tells Lexington to turn off the sound on the television set.

Goliath also keeps Brooklyn by him while they're searching the city for Demona; he clearly recognizes that he'll need to be there to restrain him, thanks to Brooklyn's feud with Demona.

Back to the eleventh century. While it wasn't mentioned in "City of Stone", I discovered later on that in actual history, Bodhe (Gruoch's father) was the son of Kenneth III, Maol Chalvim's cousin and predecessor, whom Maol Chalvim seized the throne from (something which Greg worked into the Timedancer story for "Clan-Building"). It strikes me that Gruoch being Kenneth III's granddaughter gave new meaning to the events in Part Two. Duncan isn't preventing Macbeth from marrying Gruoch just to torment his chief rival, but also because if he did marry Gruoch; he'd have an additional claim to the throne through his wife, that tops Duncan's own claim (which stems from his being the grandson of the man who overthrew Gruoch's grandfather); best to marry her off to Gillecomgain, who is on Duncan's side. Until, that is, Duncan and Gillecomgain fall out. Meaning not only that Duncan has a former accomplice who's become unwilling to take orders from him and knows too much, but who could also lay claim to the Scottish throne through his wife's inheritance - giving Duncan an even more urgent reason to get rid of Gillecomgain.

It struck me that this episode showed, not just the break-up of Duncan and Gillecomgain's alliance in the eleventh century, but Xanatos and Demona's alliance in the present - a particularly significant moment, given that they'd been working together ever since "Awakening". That moment's over for good now. Villain alliances are often short-lived, and with good reason; if your goals start to conflict (and Xanatos and Demona's goals certainly do that), the partnership soon falls apart.

And I still really like the confrontation between Gillecomgain and Demona, where she reveals that she has absolutely no idea who he is - she'd evidently attacked so many humans over the years since Castle Wyvern's fall that he doesn't stand out from them - to his absolute fury. (I remember a similar moment in "Batman Beyond" where Terry was confronting Blight, saying to him "You killed my father." Blight's response: "Do you realize how little that narrows it down?")

I've mentioned this before, but - in actual history, Maol Chalvim II (King of Scotland at the time of the flashback events) was killed near Glamis (naturally it would be Glamis), at a place called Hunter's Hill. And that was in 1034, two years after Duncan in "Gargoyles" had taken up the Hunter's mask upon Gillecomgain's death. It fits the series beautifully.

Demona realizes that the Hunter facing her is Macbeth after they have a "share the pain" moment. I wondered, this time around, whether she'd initially thought that it was one of the Canmore Hunters (although they hadn't been introduced into the series yet).

The Weird Sisters have perhaps their creepiest and most surreal moment yet, when they address Goliath in the form of petrified little girls, then crumble to pieces one by one, in front of a shocked Goliath and Brooklyn.

And the ending really stands out (and makes a good contrast to the two dissolved alliances that I mentioned above): Goliath and Xanatos agreeing to work together to undo Demona's scheme. Moments where the hero and villain agree to work together to deal with a serious common threat are commonplace in adventure cartoons; what stands out is how "City of Stone" handled it. Normally, the hero comes up with the idea, the villain resists it for a while, finally reluctantly gives in, and even then, often doesn't help out that much and tries double-crossing the hero. Here, Xanatos is the one who proposes that they join forces, while Goliath is initially more focused on punishing Xanatos for helping Demona, until Xanatos points out that solving the problem is more important. (It certainly matches their characterizations; Goliath as a medieval warrior-hero, who has some of the flaws of such a figure, such as a strong temptation towards revenge, and Xanatos as very practical and pragmatic.) Furthermore, Xanatos is the one who works out how to break Demona's spell and provides the equipment for undoing it (though the gargoyles still help out, of course), without any double-dealing. (Of course, he has good reason to want to see the spell undone, particularly with Fox and Owen included among its victims.) Note, also, that Xanatos goes for the straightforward approach in pointing out to Goliath that they need to work together - I suspect that he's learned something from "Eye of the Beholder".

(We got a slightly similar moment in Season Two of "Young Justice", I recall, where Lex Luthor was similarly arguing for something better than revenge to Red Arrow when the latter was confronting him over being locked up in a lab and even losing an arm thanks to the experiments being conducted on him - though with Luthor, it felt more like manipulating the guy confronting him and less like talking common sense - it reminded me of the scene in "Hamlet" where Claudius talks the vengeful Laertes into redirecting his vengeful rage at Hamlet.)

FAVORITE LINES.

XANATOS (after seeing the petrified New Yorkers): Obviously Demona and I need to have a little talk.

JEFFREY ROBBINS (in response to Brooklyn interrupting their conversation): Your friend is impatient.

HUDSON: The curse of youth.

DEMONA: Another human bites the dust - or rather, turns to dust.

PHOEBE: A happy beginning.

SELENE: Not all would agree.

LUNA: Certainly not our hero.

GILLECOMGAIN: But what is the Hunter without his prey?

GILLECOMGAIN: Look closely, creature. 'Tis your handiwork, done when I was but a boy. Remember?

DEMONA: No.

{Gillecomgain cries out in fury.}

DUNCAN (as he dons the mask): There will always be a Hunter, my son, and there will always be the hunted.

BROOKLYN (as he and Goliath survey the remains of Demona's rampage): It's like the massacre at Castle Wyvern.

GOLIATH: Has Demona learned nothing? Every life is precious.

BROOKLYN: One of these could be Elisa.

GOLIATH: Never! We will put an end to Demona's evil, once and for all!

WEIRD SISTERS: Yes, she must be stopped. But remember your own words, Goliath. Every life is precious. Take care not to become what you fight against. Vengeance begets nothing but a vicious cycle of further vengeance.

{The Sisters then crumble away, to Goliath and Brooklyn's shock.}

XANATOS (to Demona): I'm cancelling your show.

XANATOS: Ah, the cavalry has arrived.

GOLIATH: Xanatos.

XANATOS: You've missed all the fun. Demona took off after someone she called "the Hunter".

GOLIATH: Then you were partners in this sorcery?

XANATOS: I wanted to believe what she promised, so I gave her access to the studio.

GOLIATH: You fool! I should make you pay for all the lives she's destroyed!

XANATOS: Do you want vengeance, or a solution? This is bigger than anything either of us has ever faced. We'll have to work together to stop her. Truce?

GOLIATH: Agreed.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Dec 3, 2024 7:38:54 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

I guess I'll hold off on looking at preview pages at this point, in the hopes that in less than seven hours I can just read the whole issue all at once. If there ends up being another delay or hiccup with the digital release, maybe I'll look at the preview pages. Interesting that the issue has two artists, though. I wonder if this is a penciller/inker scenario, or one artist did certain pages and one did other pages?
Craig
posted @ Tue, Dec 3, 2024 5:28:41 pm EST from 69.118.30.106

It does feel a bit pointless to post this less than 24 hours away from the release of the actual issue, but here's the preview for Quest 5: https://graphicpolicy.com/2024/12/03/preview-gargoyles-quest-5/

The first thing to note is that this issue's artist is not Pasquale Qualano alone, but Qualano & Gerardo Gambone; the result is... I won't say "awful" (we've had David Hedgecock in the past, after all) but certainly inferior compared to how awesome the last four issues looked (Demona does the Surprised Pikachu Face at one point!).

[SPOILER] "WHAT SORCERY IS THIS?!" "Sorcery, indeed." Your mileage may vary, but I myself have become more or less allergic to memberberries; I guess this one, while not exactly needed, basically fit with the context.

We see that, this time around, Robbins is NOT immune to the spell; that being the case, I can see two reasons for Weisman putting him at the Castle: either the one I theorized last time (so that he can be there when Hudson dies) or just to show us that blind people are affected as well (but what about deaf people?).

I like Brentwood's reaction to Shari and Sevarius kneeling before him and Thailog; he seems half delighted and half intrigued, which fits well with how I envision his future role in the series (basically, he needs to become less of a follower and more of a mastermind, like Future Tense Lexington).

Goliath tries the Temptation Strategy, but it doesn't work because Demona is higher than him on the sovereignty scale; now THAT'S a well-done memberberry - it makes perfect sense that Goliath would try it and it makes sense that Demona would have thought of a counter-measure. Kudos.

"Humans were not Gargoyle thralls in 2198." "No. But that doesn't mean Demona's reign didn't last decades or that we know how to fix this." Oh, shut up. Look, I don't care how hard Brooklyn and Katana tried to avoid spoilers while in the future: if there had been a decades-long Gargoyle dictatorship in the past they would have found out, ESPECIALLY since they fought side-by-side with Demona in 2198; a thing like that is just too big to be kept a secret. This is clearly Greg trying to raise the stakes, but it's unneeded: it's not like anyone expects Demona to establish the First Gargoyle Empire - we just want to know HOW she'll be stopped. Brooklyn's answer to Katana should have been something along the lines of "Yeah, but there's no telling what kind of damage Demona could cause while we look for a solution".

Demona reveals that she doesn't want to kill all humans this time around - just keep them as slaves forever - and from the way she's acting it doesn't look like she's lying (which doesn't mean she couldn't change her mind later on). I'm... conflicted about this: on the one hand, Demona (in the present day) has always been 100% fixated on genocide, so this (relatively) tamer solution feels slightly out-of-character; on the other hand, I could see this as an attempt on her part to extend something of an olive branch to Angela, Goliath and the Clan in general. We'll see if this gets further developed later on.

The Steel Clan makes its debut in the Dynamite Era: correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is the highest number of Steel Clan robots we've ever seen at the same time.

Do you think there's any chance that Demona doesn't get defeated by the end of this issue? I honestly can't see any way to conclude this story in such a short amount of pages without it feeling anticlimactic - not only is Demona in no way close to defeat yet, but Coldstone's treachery still hasn't been addressed in any way whatsoever. Maybe the Winter Special will be set at an earlier point in the Timeline (Winter 1996 rather than 1997); maybe this issue will end with Demona triumphant, and the battle to defeat her will actually be shown in the Demona Special Issue on Free Comic Book Day and the subsequent new series; maybe Greg shamelessly stole the narrative structure of Infinity War and Endgame for this. Maybe. [/SPOILER]

Well, see you tomorrow.
CarumboZabumbo
"Ugh... looks like there's another fisticuffs coming. You know, this routine just kills me." - Mickey Mouse, "Lost & Found"
posted @ Tue, Dec 3, 2024 5:00:41 pm EST from 82.61.3.41

Agreed. And I think she figures out what is going on with the TimeDancer over the centuries where she occasionally encounters him. And I think their interactions influenced why she picked him in "Temptation". She may have assumed over the years that he is something of an ally to her. It must be a strange feeling knowing that at any time she might encounter Brooklyn again.

I also think we'll have other fun interactions like Brooklyn interacting with himself, leaving messages or hidden objects for himself and all of that.
Matt
"Human problems become gargoyle problems..."
posted @ Tue, Dec 3, 2024 11:34:09 am EST from 204.184.178.1

Agreed. And I think she figures out what is going on with the TimeDancer over the centuries where she occasionally encounters him. And I think their interactions influenced why she picked him in "Temptation". She may have assumed over the years that he is something of an ally to her. It must be a strange feeling knowing that at any time she might encounter Brooklyn again.

I also think we'll have other fun interactions like Brooklyn interacting with himself, leaving messages or hidden options for himself and all of that.
Matt
"Human problems become gargoyle problems..."
posted @ Tue, Dec 3, 2024 11:33:59 am EST from 204.184.178.1

TimeDancing: I'm definitely hoping for some out-of-sync antics for Brooklyn (and company)'s adventures. And not just with 2198. I'm really hoping there's more to be fleshed out with Demona's own thoughts in "Everywhere", where after she learns that the Phoenix was unleashed from the Gate, it helped explain "many a mystery I've encountered across [her] long life." Certainly that can't JUST be about her interaction with the Gargoyle of the Sword in 997 . . .?
Phoenician
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."
posted @ Tue, Dec 3, 2024 9:48:39 am EST from 72.216.220.229

Antiyonder> Your comments about Brooklyn's trip(s) to 2198 got me thinking of how interesting it would be if not only was there a small gap between trips, but if his first trip to 2198 happened after his second trip there! Imagine from Brooklyn's perspective, he arrives in 2198 "for the first time" and Samson and everyone knows him well, says he just left, and might ask where Katana and Gnash are and meanwhile he has never met them and doesn't know who they are. Later, from his perspective, he arrives in 2198 and he's a bit older and has a mate and kid, but Samson and all of them have no idea who they are. Definitely get some "M.I.A." vibes on that.
Matt
"Human problems become gargoyle problems..."
posted @ Tue, Dec 3, 2024 9:13:53 am EST from 204.184.178.1

MATTHEW - Yes, I suspect that the "Macbeth's story" element of "City of Stone" would evoke "Game of Thrones" for many people nowadays. (It reminds me of a comic strip I read some years ago where an English teacher, about to start on Shakespeare's "Macbeth" with his class, tells them to think of it as "Game of Thanes".)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Dec 3, 2024 8:11:14 am EST from 68.99.93.213

"City of Stone Part One" I don't remember seeing many of the episodes when they originally aired but this one I do. Of course it would take some years before I got the deeper significance of figures like Macbeth, Findlaech, Duncan and Canmore. History and fiction do so often intertwine. I remember watching this and enjoying Findlaech as a character, shame he dies in his introduction.

When Todd covered "Awakening" I made the point about how the episodes set in the past feel just as important as the ones in the present day. What I forgot to mention is that this is tricky to do, anachronistic storytelling not only can be disjointed but tension and engagement can be lost by jumping around especially if you already know the outcome for certain characters and their fates (something Star Wars fell into). However, one of the strengths of "City of Stone" is that it approaches these story elements in the form of a mystery and as we'll see as the multi-parter continues we'll see why Demona and Macbeth are the way they are. There's a lot of great hooks here such as introduction of the Weird Sisters, the danger of the Hunter and a spell that manages to frighten the normally unflappable Owen...

Something that I thought of recently, with the success of George R.R. Martin's series, the history of Duncan's rise to power, the conflict with the other Scottish kings and Macbeth's own journey into kingship is just ripe for further storytelling. I could easily see this as another "Dark Ages" spinoff. Medieval political dramas can be just as interesting as modern day ones.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Tue, Dec 3, 2024 4:41:47 am EST from 135.180.3.149

Craig> Done and thanks for the missed moments.:-)
Antiyonder
posted @ Mon, Dec 2, 2024 11:30:18 pm EST from 68.119.3.1

SPOILER .... https://www.pacificairandelectrical.com.au/aircon-installation-central-coast/
Louise - [vjq12433 at kisoq dot com]
Aircon Installation Central Coast
posted @ Mon, Dec 2, 2024 11:28:02 pm EST from 124.217.31.229

Antiyonder > I don't think I have the ability to edit the Gargwiki. I'm under the impression only approved members can edit. But I don't need any acknowledgement, if you want to add them!

A few more from Part 5 as well, since I saw you added that last installment:
- In the movie version, the Station 2 Commander has an additional line when he sees Hudson on camera: "What on Earth?"
- When Hudson and Bronx jump onto the subway car roof, Hudson has an awkwardly-dubbed line in the movie that is not in the episode: "I know, boy, but any port in a storm."
- Lexington also had an awkwardly-dubbed line when he's dodging fire from the Steel Clan: "I think it's safe to say they're not our friends!"
Craig
posted @ Mon, Dec 2, 2024 11:13:46 pm EST from 69.118.30.106

Craig- Just caught your comment. I could add them in a bit with you acknowledged or you can feel free to add them.
Antiyonder
posted @ Mon, Dec 2, 2024 11:07:27 pm EST from 68.119.3.1

Todd > I'm embarrassed to say, but I think my initial reaction to "City of Stone" was more focused on Demona, since I'd been waiting nearly a year to learn the backstory of what she'd been doing during that millennium and how she'd survived...and of course, her relationship with Macbeth and the payoff to the "I named her!" line. The fact that Gargoyles departed from Shakespeare didn't particularly surprise me, as the Gargoyles version of Macbeth had already seemed like a very different character from Shakespeare's version (not least of which because he was still alive!). I had gotten a sense from "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time" that the Gargoyles Macbeth had a rather noble, even chivalrous side, that had been dulled by the centuries, so the "City of Stone" characterization made sense. I did look up some materials on the historical Macbeth the next time I went to the library after those episodes aired.

As for Margot's level of cognitive dissonance...I think unfortunately that type of disconnect between perception and belief is all too familiar in today's political climate. It truly sucks to say that certain elements of Gargoyles feel more topical now than ever, and yet here we are.

Antiyonder > Looking at your updates on Gargwiki. A few other differences in the movie that you missed (based on my own notes):
Part 2
- The quick blink-and-you'll-miss-it shot where Hudson gets his sword off a Viking is cut.
- Goliath's awakening is a different effect in the movie, and there is an additional shot in the movie that's not in the episode of Xanatos stumbling backwards while shielding his face.

Part 3
- Elisa's line about weapons permits is "I assume THEY have permits" in the episode. In the movie, it's "I assume YOU have permits."
- The scene of Goliath fighting the thugs has an additional shot in the movie, where we see Goliath bash two of the thugs' heads together. In the TV version, it's not clear what Goliath does to cause these thugs to be unconscious. (Ironically, while the head-bashing shot was presumably cut for censorship reasons, I always found the episode version to be more gruesome since it sort of seems to be implied that Goliath breaks the thug's neck!)
- The movie version also has a few more frames near the end of the episode when Goliath tries to shove away the commando gripping his waist.

Part 4
- Elisa shooting a commando is cut.
- Near the end of the episode, when the Trio is breaking into the Cyberbiotics base, Brooklyn has a line deleted, resulting in Broadway's reply being redubbed from "No problem" to "Come on. Let's do it!"
Craig
posted @ Mon, Dec 2, 2024 10:21:40 pm EST from 69.118.30.106

1. Now we know that Wolf was watching the report on the terrorist and basically said "Hold my beer".

Todd Jenson>
2. Of course while Goliath and clan aren't absent, well here is the Amphibia quote from Maddie and Marcy...

Sprig- You ever think it's weird when the main characters aren't in an episode?

Anne- Eh, you don't miss 'em.
Antiyonder
posted @ Mon, Dec 2, 2024 9:43:06 pm EST from 68.119.3.1

One other thing I forgot to mention. Margot and Brendan clearly recognize that the gargoyles were asking them about children by their response - which makes Margot's later arguments that the gargoyles are just savage beasts incapable of reason seem hypocritical. (Though I get the suspicion that most of us don't find that surprising, when it's Margot we're talking about....)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Dec 2, 2024 8:40:06 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

Rewatched "City of Stone Part One" today.

"City of Stone" is still one of my favorite "Gargoyles" stories. What initially drew me to it was the "medieval Scotland" flashbacks - which were, in some ways, even more exciting than the original Castle Wyvern scenes back in "Awakening", because of the retelling of Macbeth's story (more on that below). And that's still a part that really grabs me, but I also appreciate the drama in Demona's development, alongside a few other elements that I'll go into more detail about below, and in my reviews of Parts Two to Four.

Matthew mentioned in one of his "The Owl House" reviews (about the episode dealing with Eda's school days) that you know a certain series is a good one when it does a "change-of-pace" episode where the regulars are placed to one side and the focus is on other characters and you enjoy it rather than missing the leads. "City of Stone" definitely is a good example of this. In fact, I never even noticed that Goliath and his clan had a relatively small role, with the story revolving around Demona and Macbeth, until Greg Weisman mentioned it (with the comment that this was why Disney decided not to make it a straight-to-video release).

I always like finding out how viewers, when they saw "City of Stone" for the first time, responded to the strong difference between its treatment of Macbeth and the familiar depiction of his story by Shakespeare (the play is, undoubtedly, almost everyone's introduction to Macbeth; it was certainly my introduction to him). I wasn't surprised, since I'd already read about the historical Macbeth and knew how Shakespeare had changed it (my introduction to the historical Macbeth was a children's book on family trees, "The Monster at the Top of the Tree" - which I still have, by the way - whose author discovered that she was related to the early Kings of Scotland, among other figures; it told how Macbeth actually slew Duncan in battle, for example, rather than murdering him in his sleep - and mentioned one or two other features about him that haven't - yet- gotten into "Gargoyles", such as how he made a pilgrimage to Rome in 1050 and gave a lot of money to the poor while there). But I like to find out who in the audience was taken by surprise by this take on Macbeth.

(I knew the following things about the historical Macbeth that appeared in "City of Stone" - that he slew Duncan in battle and ruled Scotland much better than Duncan did, that his reign was from 1040 to 1057, that his wife - the original of Lady Macbeth - was named Gruoch, and that he had a stepson, born to Gruoch's first marriage, named Lulach, who succeeded him to the throne and lasted for a year before Malcolm Canmore defeated him as well. Lulach's name, by the way, provides a minor challenge in writing these reviews - though it only applies to Parts Three and Four - because "Gargoyles" changed his name to "Luach", but I'm too used to the "Lulach" version of his name.)

Part One, of course, also features Demona's perspective on the Wyvern Massacre - not only how she avoided being smashed to pieces in it, but even more importantly, her suppressed guilt over the event, which becomes a major motivator for her war on the human race. It's both sad and chilling; her grieving for Goliath is moving, but at the same time, hearing that famous cry of hers (see the "Favorite Lines", below).... One part that took on new significance for me when I thought about it was the moment when Demona sees Princess Katharine, the Magus, and Tom load up the eggs in their cart and drive off. I didn't initially realize it, but after thinking that moment over for a bit, I realized something important: we know that Princess Katharine and the Magus had been entrusted with the eggs by Goliath, and that they now regretted the way they'd treated the gargoyles. But Demona doesn't know about any of that. From her perspective, the humans are ransacking the rookery and making off with the eggs for some horrendous purpose - and she just lets it happen. She has one last opportunity to save part of her clan, and passes it up. I still suspect that this helped make her all the more the Demona we know.

I'd long assumed that Demona's initial encounter with Gillecomgain, where she scarred his face and set him on the path to becoming the Hunter, happened shortly after the Wyvern Massacre, but after this viewing, I wondered whether it might have occurred later in the year. I noticed that the trees around GIllecomgain's farm were bare, in a way that suggested late autumn (like November), while the Wyvern Massacre (according to Greg - it's "canon-in-training" at the moment, of course) was in late September. So it might have been a month or two later. (I noticed that the scene at the start of the 1020 flashback where Demona and her gargoyles are raiding the granaries also had bare trees, suggesting late autumn again. I'll have to watch the battle scenes from Parts Three and Four to see if they do the trees the same way, of course; we know that, in actual history, the battles where Macbeth overthrew Duncan and where Canmore overthrew him both took place in mid-August.)

One of the important moments in the Castle Moray scene is when Findlaech states that he'll support Duncan when he ascends the throne. Which meant that he had no plans to overthrow Duncan on his son's behalf, as Duncan feared. His sending Gillecomgain after Findlaech was entirely unnecessary - and even helped lead to the very future he was trying to avoid. We'll see a parallel to that in Part Four; more about that when I get to that episode. It matches Elisa's remark in "Protection" about the corrupt finding it easy to believe that others can be corrupted.

Another major moment: Demona comes to Macbeth and Gruoch's aid - and as a result, Gillecomgain gets away. Which undoubtedly helped convince her all the more that helping humans was a bad idea, especially given her utter fury when she notices that the Hunter escaped her. At least she didn't rip them both to shreds; I wonder if Gruoch thanking her (thereby displaying far more gratitude than Princess Katharine and her court had shown) might have had something to do with that.

A LITTLE ABOUT THE WEIRD SISTERS: While the Weird Sisters are obviously immediately based on the three Witches in "Macbeth", there's more to them than that. As Greg Weisman's mentioned, they're based on a major concept in mythology - a triad of goddesses, or at least mysterious otherworldly women. Shakespeare's source, Holinshed's "Chronicles", took this approach as well, describing the women who met Macbeth as "the goddesses of destiny". (There's some question over whether Shakespeare saw them as that, or just three regular witches. The fact that they refer to the apparitions whom they summon up in their second meeting with Macbeth as "our masters" suggests the latter.) The "Weird" part of their name is generally thought to be derived from the Old English "wyrd", meaning "fate", tying in with that (though I've read that some Shakespeare scholars think it was derived from "wayward", instead - which feels appropriate itself, in a way, since Demona was called "our wayward sister" in "Gargoyles Quest").

The immediate mythological trio that the Weird Sisters are based on is the Fates from Greek mythology and the Norns from Norse, of course. We know, also, that Greg had imagined them as also drawing on the Furies and the Graces, depending on which Sister is uppermost at the moment. He's not the only person to equate the Fates with the Furies, incidentally; I've read a graphic novel series called "Olympians" by George O'Connor which also made the Fates and the Furies the same people (though when the Graces entered the series, they were treated as separate). (I highly recommend O'Connor's "Olympians", by the way - and a new graphic novel series also by O'Connor, "Asgardians", retelling the Norse myths; the first two books, on Odin and Thor respectively, have already been published.)

The Weird Sisters are all named after moon-goddesses from classical mythology: Luna, Phoebe, and Selene (or Seline - Greg uses the latter spelling, but the former is how her name's spelled in books on Greek mythology. A repeat of the "Lulach/Luach" business, above). There are theories (I know that Robert Graves was a keen supporter of them) about triple-goddesses assocciated with the moon, which "Gargoyles" was clearly drawing on here. Their three different ages - little girls, young women, and old women (sometimes human, sometimes gargoyle) - are also clearly drawn from the "Maiden, Mother, and Crone" notion that's popular with such groups. ("Gargoyles" took the approach of having them all appear to be the same age at once, at least in "City of Stone"; we never see the Weird Sisters' "little girl" or "old hag" forms after that. Other versions of such beings take the approach of having one be a young girl, one a young woman, and one an old woman; I've written a couple of stories - independent of "Gargoyles", of course - that took the latter approach towards them.)

One modern-day take on the "Weird Sisters" that I highly recommend, to everyone here who hasn't read it, is that of Orddu, Orwen, and Orgoch in Lloyd Alexander's "The Chronicles of Prydain". (They've found their own way into Disney thanks to the "Black Cauldron" movie adaptation of Alexander's books.) They're a particular delight - funny and otherworldly at the same time, with a few especially strange traits - for example, they take turns being each other. (With the problem that none of them want to be Orgoch - partly because she's fond of eating bizarre things.)

FAVORITE LINES.

MATT: It's getting late. Tired people make mistakes. Let's stop right here before somebody gets hurt.

BANK ROBBER LEADER (opening fire on Matt and the other police): We will never give in. Our cause is worth any sacrifice.

MATT (to Elisa): Think they're starting to see it our way?

SELENE: The cause is everything until her own life is threatened. Still, it's good that you saved her.

PHOEBE: If you'd forgotten what she'd forgotten, that every life is precious, then you'll be no different from her.

GOLIATH: I'll never be like this terrorist.

LUNA: We were not talking about this terrorist.

DEMONA: Oh my love. What have I - what have they done to you?

DEMONA: Let the Hunter strike at his target. For as he does, he becomes the prey. My prey.

DEMONA (to Gillecomgain): Know what it feels like to be hunted, human. And know that it is the last thing you will ever feel.

FOX: Take it from a professional, David. That Demona broadcast isn't exactly riveting TV.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Dec 2, 2024 8:24:49 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

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