The influence of Lord Byron seems all the more likely given that he was present at that get-together where Mary Shelley got the idea to write "Frankenstein".
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sun, Dec 15, 2024 7:41:55 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

"And, yes, Thailog and the Monster are also both highly intelligent and scheming and can speak very well. (I've probably mentioned this here before, but after I first read Mary Shelley's book, I concluded that Hollywood had done the Monster a great injustice.)"

Or a great favor, making him into a simple-minded but pure soul. Shelley's Monster was probably inspired by Lord Byron, a progenitor of all sorts of brooding heroes/antiheroes. He's one of those literary figures whose influence is everywhere but I'm not sure I've ever read anything he wrote.

Also, Jon Solo recently released a video on the history of "grotesques" and gargoyles- lower case "g," but he does make several references to our show. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1V0z0v5dTUA
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sun, Dec 15, 2024 4:31:01 pm EST from 75.222.33.248

MASTERDRAMON -- Yes, I liked those parts as well, particularly when Catherine's telling off the others for remarks that might give the end of the story away.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Dec 14, 2024 7:37:17 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

TODD: Yup, part of why it was fresher in my mind. I read the books a couple years back on your recommendation and enjoyed them a lot, albeit with a few quibbles (her [SPOILER] largely heroic version of Dracula in comparison to villainizing his opposition in the second book never struck me well [/SPOILER], for example).

The highlight was definitely the format, with each of the girls regularly interrupting the story to insert color commentary or complain about how Catherine, the in-universe writer, is depicting them.

Also Diana is definitely Best Girl.
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"You said everything has a name. I'll name this ability of mine too. 'Stone Free.' Because I'll become free of this ocean of stone." - Jolyne Cujoh
posted @ Sat, Dec 14, 2024 7:33:14 pm EST from 76.173.137.179

The mention of Justine reminded me of Theodora Goss's "Alchemist's Daughter" trilogy (which I've mentioned here before, by the way), about a group of women that were "created" in various ways by mad scientists (based on the many cases of mad scientists in fiction having female test subjects - something followed by Sevarius, for that matter, with Maggie and Delilah); Justine features in it [SPOILER] with Victor using her body to create the Monster's bride - and he didn't destroy her here, unlike the book - with the hint that Mary Shelley made it look as if he'd done it so that Justine would be left alone [/SPOILER].

And, yes, Thailog and the Monster are also both highly intelligent and scheming and can speak very well. (I've probably mentioned this here before, but after I first read Mary Shelley's book, I concluded that Hollywood had done the Monster a great injustice.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Dec 14, 2024 7:08:16 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

I hadn't really noticed before because the title is mostly obscuring what's going on, but on the Jae Lee/June Chung cover for Quest #5...Demona appears to be beheading Wyvern! While in stone sleep of course, although his expression seems to indicate that he's aware and looks pretty horrified. Obviously not canon in any way whatsoever, but pretty cool and badass!
Craig
posted @ Sat, Dec 14, 2024 5:35:08 pm EST from 69.118.30.106

JURGAN: Small nitpick, but I think you're mixing up a couple characters. The framed party (Justine) is a lower-class girl taken in by the Frankenstein family to be the nanny of Victor's brother William. His cousin Elizabeth (who was raised as his adoptive sister, and whom he eventually marries) gets killed by the creature, on their wedding night.

Otherwise I think your comparison is apt. Thailog even takes it upon himself to make his creator cobble together a "bride" for him, though out of a perverse desire to control her and the rest of his new clan ("I kept their programming simple. 'Obey Thailog.' That's all they really need to know.") rather than the creature's sincere longing for companionship.
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"You said everything has a name. I'll name this ability of mine too. 'Stone Free.' Because I'll become free of this ocean of stone." - Jolyne Cujoh
posted @ Sat, Dec 14, 2024 3:39:03 pm EST from 76.173.137.179

"OWEN: You mean, that creature is still out there? It has the money, it's as powerful as Goliath, and it's smarter than you?

XANATOS: Owen, I think I've created a monster."

This is why I've already said that, despite the overt references in "Reawkening," Thailog is the real Frankenstein monster (in addition to The Bastard archetype, but that kind of fits The Monster as well). This is particularly true if you're going by the Shelley novel and not the movies. The monster is created, but his creator abandons him and he swears revenge. But he isn't just a rampaging monster, he schemes and plots to frame Victor's (sister? cousin?) for murder so as to systematically ruing his life. Xanatos doesn't abandon Thailog, but he does program his own morality that corrupts him. The only real difference is that Thailog doesn't agonize over how unfair the world was to him, he relishes the evil he does.

"GOLIATH: Thailog, don't go down that path. Money may be a necessary evil in Xanatos's world, but not in ours."

He says that, but someone is keeping their fridge stocked.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Dec 14, 2024 1:03:15 pm EST from 75.222.33.248

MORRAND - That line from "Double Jeopardy" ran through my head the first time I read that moment in "Here in Manhattan" as well, though I hadn't thought of your specific interpretation. It strikes me as a good one; we'll probably have more to say on it when I reach that part in my reviews.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Dec 14, 2024 11:23:51 am EST from 68.99.93.213

Random thought:

"GOLIATH: Thailog, don't go down that path. Money may be a necessary evil in Xanatos's world, but not in ours. Join us. Join your clan."

Do you suppose this is a part of why Goliath is so shocked--horrified, even--to find out about his inheritance at the end of "Here in Manhattan"? He's got an extremely clear picture of what lies down the path the inheritance could start him down (or push him down, really), and just to push the knife in a bit further, has David Xanatos right there to congratulate him.
morrand - [morrand276 at gmail dot com]
posted @ Sat, Dec 14, 2024 10:48:36 am EST from 108.69.72.60

Add another member to the list of people who want to kill you.

"Double Jeopardy," not exactly the evil twin episode but close enough. Todd, there's a whole discussion to be made not just on Thailog and Superboy but on cloning as a whole in fiction and how Greg specifically uses it in his works, but I think that's best saved for "The Reckoning." In the meantime, Thailog turns out to be quite the nasty villain and he makes for a good shakeup in that he ends up being a threat to both the heroes and one of the primary villains.

Thailog is one of the few villains in the show that wears his villainy with pride and without any subtext of complexity. There's a lot of time spent on Goliath trying to reach out to his "son" and lamenting that he turned out the way he is. But one thing touched upon in the episode, especially Xanatos' last line, is that Thailog is very much a "worst of three worlds" being. Possessing the strength and of Goliath, the smarts and deviousness of Xanatos, and the cruel and sociopathic nature of Sevarius. Goliath may lament that they failed Thailog but doesn't consider the possibility that Thailog would end up being exactly what was intended, a Goliath steeped in the modern world and modern thinking and not shackled to past ideals or a code of honor.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sat, Dec 14, 2024 2:55:17 am EST from 135.180.3.149

Thou, Nature, art my goddess; to thy law
My services are bound. Wherefore should I
Stand in the plague of custom, and permit
The curiosity of nations to deprive me,
For that I am some twelve or fourteen moonshines
Lag of a brother? Why bastard? wherefore base?
When my dimensions are as well compact,
My mind as generous, and my shape as true,
As honest madam's issue? Why rand they us
With base? with baseness? bastardy? base, base?
Who, in the lusty stealth of nature, take
More composition and fierce quality
Than doth, within a dull, stale, tired bed,
Go to th'creating a whole tribe of fops,
Got 'tween asleep and wake? - Well, then,
Legitimate Edgar, I must have your land.
Our father's love is to the bastard Edmund
As to th'legitimate: fine word, - legitimate!
Well, my legitimate, if this letter speed,
And my invention thrive, Edmund the base
Shall top th'legitimate - I grow; I prosper; -
Now, gods, stand up for bastards!


Rewatched "Double Jeopardy" today. In this episode, "Gargoyles" found a way to give Goliath an illegitimate son in a way that could get past Standards and Practices - and a truly memorable illegitimate son, at that. As Owen points out at the end, Thailog combines Xanatos's shrewdness and cunning with Goliath's strength, making him an even more dangerous opponent. Add to that the fact that Thailog echoes Goliath's appearance, but is his opposite; where Goliath displays the strengths and flaws of an early medieval warrior-hero, Thailog displays a modern-day amoral cunning. All in all, a major adversary.

And Thailog also echoes such figures as Mordred in the Arthurian legend and Edmund in "King Lear" at that. (We know that Edmund is Greg Weisman's favorite Shakespearean character, and once I learned that, I quickly suspected that Edmund had some influence on the creation of Thailog.) I've sometimes thought that if Goliath and King Arthur ever got to sit down and trade tales the way Arthur was doing with Macbeth in the Stone of Destiny story in "Clan-Building", that's one thing they could compare notes on.

(We know, also, that Greg wasn't done with the Bastard archetype yet, given that he came out with Superboy in "Young Justice", even using a similar route - another clone made of a heroic figure via "mad science", and who has another father in the form of the scheming rich man who's a major adversary of said heroic figure. Of course, Superboy took a very different route; this calls for a more in-depth article comparing and contrasting the two, though I'll leave that to someone else. Suffice it to say that this time, we got a heroic bastard - for which there are also precedents. Sir Galahad, the noblest and purest of the knights of the Round Table, was illegitimate and begotten under very questionable circumstances, to put it mildly. And in Shakespeare, we have the Bastard in "King John", an illegitimate son of Richard the Lion-hearted who distinguishes himself as a brave and honorable warrior, complete with a lot of the best lines in the play.)

As has been pointed out, Thailog definitely shows himself as Xanatos's "son" in coming up with his own kidnapping (just as Xanatos set up his own assassination attempt in "Her Brother's Keeper") - not to mention the twenty million dollars as an inflated version of the twenty thousand dollars Xanatos sold the penny for in "Vows".

Xanatos says at the end "no copy could live up to the original", and I think it noteworthy that we saw no further brand-new attempts to make his own gargoyles after that - just the repeats of already-established versions like the Steel Clan and his gargoyle armor (and one last attempt to control the Mutates in "The Cage"). Of course, I'm not sure there are that many other ways to "make your own gargoyle" after robots, high-tech armor, mutating humans into gargoyle-like life-forms, and cloning, but it still seems significant. (Though Greg Weisman pointed out something else when I brought this up: Xanatos, as the ending makes clear, was truly and understandably scared of how Thailog turned out.)

Elisa, Lexington, and Broadway have their first encounter with Thailog along another lonely coastal road (maybe even the same one as in "Revelations" that we were just discussing), though this time, we're given a good explanation for what Elisa was doing in such a place, so different from her regular work.

Sevarius's narration of the "Thailog video" that Lexington and Broadway were watching felt a bit like a parody of the narration in Disney-style nature documentaries, especially the "time to leave the nest" part.

And Xanatos immediately dismisses Sevarius's suggestion that the person behind the kidnapping was Owen or Fox - another neat little moment. (He also included Renard among his list of suspects behind Thailog's "abduction"; it doesn't seem that likely, of course, from what we saw of him in "Outfoxed", but we'll see in "Golem" that it's not completely impossible, and in any case, it feels like a classic case of "The corrupt are always first to believe others can be corrupted".)

FAVORITE LINES.

LEXINGTON: You should have heard his laugh. Made my hair stand on end - if I had any.


OWEN (as the mercenaries make off with Thailog): Is this a plan you've neglected to mention?


GOLIATH: You know I am not in the habit of playing childish tricks, or laughing maniacally in the dark.

HUDSON: Do you even know how to laugh maniacally?


SEVARIUS: Oh, I get it. We're being watched. Is that it? (in a louder, more over-the-top tone) Yes, I betrayed you! You robbed me of my greatest creation, my ultimate achievement! I only took back what was mine! (whispering again) There, how was that?


GOLIATH: What kind of abomination are you?

THAILOG: The same kind as you. It was your blood that spawned me.

GOLIATH: My blood?

ELISA: Oh, my gosh. He's a clone. They grew him from a piece of you, like a cutting from a plant.

GOLIATH: A piece of me? This thing is me? First Xanatos steals my home, and now he pieces out my soul!


XANATOS: Well, what do you know? That kid turned out to be a real chip off the old block.

THAILOG (swooping down and frying Xanatos's armor with the magnetic disk): Indeed he did. All the old blocks.


SEVARIUS: Typical. You do and do and do for them, and what happens? They twist the knife in you.

THAILOG: Don't tempt me.


GOLIATH: Thailog, don't go down that path. Money may be a necessary evil in Xanatos's world, but not in ours. Join us. Join your clan.

THAILOG: And waste my life playing guardian angel, night after night, to a decrepit city infested with inferior humans? Where's the profit in that?

GOLIATH: Life for a gargoyle isn't about profit. It's about protecting those you care for.


THAILOG (listening to Goliath roar): Now I know where I got the temper.


GOLIATH: Go. I have to face Thailog alone.

ELISA: No, Goliath.

GOLIATH: Please, Elisa. He is of my blood. He is my son.



GOLIATH: It's not too late, Thailog. We can wipe the slate clean. Start over.

THAILOG: Over my dead body! Or better yet, yours!


XANATOS: I should have known no copy could live up to the original.

GOLIATH: That copy was a living being, and we all failed him.


OWEN: You mean, that creature is still out there? It has the money, it's as powerful as Goliath, and it's smarter than you?

XANATOS: Owen, I think I've created a monster.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Dec 13, 2024 8:31:09 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

Jurgan >
[SPOILER]
I think the people we see awakening from the spell are: (1) an Eyrie Building security guard we've never seen before (not 100% sure about this one, but he seems to be in the Eyrie Building lobby, and I don't think he's Morgan); (2) Peter Choi and Rosario Sanchez from the "Here in Manhattan" arc (also appeared briefly last issue in Times Square); (3) Chavez and Bluestone, as you say; (4) Jogger and his brother William Greene, a.k.a. Billy and Susan's dad (not Vinnie).

Actually, looking back, I think we did catch a glimpse of that security guard near the end of issue 4. But we didn't really get a look at his face.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Fri, Dec 13, 2024 2:30:26 pm EST from 69.118.30.106

Matt, bless you for teaching middle schoolers. I tried that for a couple years, and it was rough.

[SPOILER]
"Antoinette too, seems to be making confusing and self-destructive choices. I thought she was perhaps just in the dark about Demona's ultimate goals, but Demona spells it all out to her very clearly here and she seems unfazed. I don't even think Coldstone or Antoinette are bad people, they are just so deep in. Enthralled really."

I think Antoinette expected Demona to be a suzerain- she would allow the humans to maintain their own affairs as long as they paid tribute to their gargoyle masters. And that's probably what she had in mind, she doesn't seem like the micromanaging type. Though she'd probably hunt them for sport every now and then, which is all the more reason for Antoinette to become a useful quisling.
[/SPOILER]

Masterdramon: "Re: THE KEYS... [SPOILER] Demona got lucky that this time, all Three Keys were ones she could access within the space of a single miniseries. I doubt she will remain so fortunate the next time 'round. Her spell may allow her to IDENTIFY the New-New set, but that doesn't mean she can snap them up easily. That being said...I'm wondering if one of the next Keys may turn out to be a keystone for Mab's prison, meaning removing it has further consequences..."

It does feel a bit like we did a speed-run through this plot. In the original series, the keys were introduced one by one over the span of a couple dozen episodes and bringing them together was a climax to a lot of build-up. Then again, we haven't seen Demona in action for so long, maybe it's good to get to the point. She certainly did a bit of prep work offscreen. I like that Demona plans are big, though it can risk villain decay when she keeps failing after all her preparation. Stealing the egg helps stave that off a bit. And I have to assume Thailog knew that she'd inevitably fail at whatever big scheme she had, or else he would have tried to stop her from interfering with his plans. [/SPOILER]

Craig:
[SPOILER] "Not sure I'm crazy about "Rydderch" continuing to be used as if it's a term that's been there all along. But I guess I'll get used to it. It just feels kind of unnatural to me."

Agreed. They've been using Anglicized versions of names and titles all along, and Goliath always was just "leader." I have no problem with it being used in Dark Ages (though even there we get into the "translation paradox"), but I feel like they should use modern terms in the modern day. That's what they've done up until now, it feels like Greg trying to retcon in new stuff he's since learned. [/SPOILER]

Greg B: "Or, to bring it back to the very first question I asked in Ask Greg decades ago: https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=489"

Ah, you're the one who asked that (so weird to see you call him "Mr. Weisman," not "hey, Greg, how the hell ya been?"). I thought of that question as well back in the day, but I didn't have internet at the time. I still think Demona would have died, given my interpretation of the "curse" as more of a prophecy than a magical wall, but that's a vacuous argument since releasing the plague never actually happened. Every answer is correct because it's based on something purely hypothetical.

"Sometimes I encounter fans who believe that Macbeth was going to betray Demona and that it was a mistake not to include the moment where Macbeth says as much to Bodhe after Demona leaves. For others, they can rely on the direction, the music, John Rhys-Davies acting, etc."

My own thought at the time was that there was no way Macbeth would have betrayed them in their sleep or anything so dramatic, but that he might have tried to break off the alliance and convince the gargoyles that they should leave.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Dec 13, 2024 12:51:23 pm EST from 75.222.33.248

"I truly hated this job."

How many tollbooths did you crash into? ;)

One of the little ironies of Revelations (that I definitely didn't get as a kid) is that Mace's plan is absolute nonsense. "I want to learn the truth about gargoyles, so I will torture one until he can't tell reality from fantasy and then I will get him to tell me what's really going on." But I don't think this is a flaw; rather it accurately depicts how torturers think in real life. Torture is one of the worst ways of getting accurate information. People don't want information and reluctantly turn to torture to get it, they want to cause pain and justify it as a search for information. I don't know if this was an intentional writing choice, but after the "War on Terror" and particularly the Abu Ghraib scandal it feels like commentary.

Quick thoughts on Quest #5 without looking at what others have said: [SPOILER] Darkseid will be invading Earth soon, once he learns Demona solved the Anti-Life Equation. Pretty funny how Demona considers enslavement as a reasonable compromise between "protection" and "genocide." 5 was the finale, so there was more action than usual, and I got into it. Often in comics the action is something I merely tolerate to get to the story, but this issue had a lot more energy than most. I don't know enough about art to explain why, I just know I was carried along.

Appropriately, though, Demona's downfall is based on her character, not a simple punch out. I liked the detail that Demona smelled Elisa on Goliath's "hair and lips," referencing both the human and gargoyle ways of showing affection. I was wondering the other day- do people think Elisa and Goliath have... "consummated" their relationship yet? I'm leaning towards no, because I feel like Greg would find a way to signal it to us adult fans, but I'm not sure.

Anyway, the nature of the control spell is a bit ambiguous. It controls humans, but it also can control gargoyles who have connections to humanity. Also, if different gargoyles give conflicting orders, the humans aren't sure whom to follow unless Demona supersedes them all. It's not "hard magic," but that's fine. Goliath beats Demona by pointing out one of the great ironies of the show, that she is in fact the most human of them all, and then reminds her of the Wyvern Massacre. I'm torn on this, because while it makes sense, it's also kind of a rehash of City of Stone's ending. But of course Goliath would do that, he's seen that it's her weakness.

In the denouement, we see a bunch of cameos. Officer Morgan (I think, though it doesn't look much like him to me), the two guys from New Olympians (Terry and somebody), Chavez and Matt, Vinnie and the Jogger (with their faces very close together, shippers get to work- also I thought Vinnie was in Japan). Lexington and Amp are being very sweet. I've said for a while that I don't want to declare them a couple until we get clear confirmation from both sides, but at this point Lex is so clearly smitten that if Amp doesn't see it he's the most oblivious man on Earth. And then Desdemona kicks Othello to the curb, something long overdue. I'm not saying he's badly written, but he's a selfish jerk and it's nice that he's finally facing the consequences of his actions. I've always wondered if the Captain was right, way back in Awakening, when he said that the gargoyles would leave them alone if Hakon didn't kill them in their sleep. There would probably have been a split, but Othello would definitely been on the "screw 'em" side.

And Demona steals the egg. Classic Xanatos Tag given to Demona instead. They said way back in the teasers for Here in Manhattan #1 that people would be trying to steal the egg, now it's finally come true. Brooklyn is gonna be on a bigger rage than ever- tricking him into betraying Goliath started his grudge, but stealing his child is gonna kick it into overdrive.
[/SPOILER]
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Dec 13, 2024 11:22:06 am EST from 75.236.95.178

Thanks for the comments on the "lonely road" setting in "Revelations" - and, yes, taking liberties with New York City geography for the needs of the story does seem the best explanation. (I got a smile out of the "some kind of danger" line - that and Bishansky's mention that nobody would have noticed the damage to La Guardia from a fight with Demona there.) And it's not the last time we see that "lonely road", either....
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Dec 13, 2024 8:26:14 am EST from 68.99.93.213

Just continuing on the question of the location of the driving scene in "Revelations": I looked up the story memo, and it's not at all helpful. It contains the sentence, "Matt, she yells, you're driving us right into the path of some kind of danger!!" The scene as presented here could essentially take place anywhere. He could be steering them into an oncoming truck, or into a building. It would be interesting to see what the final script actually said. But I would imagine that at some point during the development of the episode, it was decided that Matt couldn't be putting anyone BESIDES Elisa and himself in danger for BS&P reasons (it's a credit to Adrienne Bello that they were allowed to go as far as they did), so the location had to be as isolated as possible. "Isolated" isn't something you're typically going to find on an NYC road, even late at night, so that might be why they had to stretch reality a bit.
Craig
posted @ Fri, Dec 13, 2024 5:15:23 am EST from 69.118.30.106

Bishansky > I got to tour Rikers for work. It is surreal being in the prison complex and looking out over the river at the airport. I don't know if that's a cruel tease for those who are incarcerated, or maybe is good motivation to try to escape. I guess it depends how much of an optimist you are.

Also, LOL on your comments about LaGuardia and the damage being unnoticeable.
Craig
posted @ Thu, Dec 12, 2024 11:21:15 pm EST from 69.118.30.106

There are several episodes that dip their toes into the unsettling tone, "Revelations" is unique in that both the villain and the heroes engage in this. Tom F. Wilson captures a perfectly chilling tone when confronting Elisa about the gargoyles. His character of Stan Carter didn't show up much in Spectacular, but there was certainly hints that he'd take up the identity of the Sin-Eater and Tom could certainly pull it off. Plus, there's Mace falling victim to his own hotel...

One neat detail is Elisa having to come forward about keeping the secret of the clan to herself. That kind of secrecy drew a wedge between her and her brother and it almost happens here. It's not exactly a selfish position but it isn't honest either and while there's good sense in not revealing them to everyone it's hard not to understand Matt's frustration.

"Also, I think there's one challenge with an adversary like the Illuminati, coldly level-headed; you have to make their failure to dispose of the gargoyles convincing, the same as with Xanatos."

One thing that helps is that the members of the Illuminati operate with a distinct amount of independence; the Light has a similar feel but they're structured to be more hands-on with the upper echelon being well-aware with what's going on with the bottom rung. But just like the Illuminati, no one is irreplaceable. Even members at the top like The Brain or Black Manta were left in prison after getting caught, it fits well with Vandal's "Survival of the Fittest" code, that and there's no honor among thieves.

"Trust the Illuminati to get their hands on a few of those."

I trust the Illuminati to have a hand in designing a few of those.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Thu, Dec 12, 2024 11:05:32 pm EST from 135.180.3.149

I am definitely exhausted! LOL!

Sorry, it's been a long day! And don't apologize for the confusion, Craig. The fault was on my end.

A decade ago, I worked as a chauffeur which involved a lot of airport pick-ups and drop-offs in the NYC area. I was regularly at JFK, LaGuardia, Newark, and sometimes Westchester (and their infamous "billionaire's row") ... I once picked up the wife of a former Congressman turned lobbyist for Morgan Stanley from "billionaire's row". I almost shared a filthy joke about lobbyists and politicians, but I figured it wasn't appropriate for this CR.

(Not-so-fun fact: The bigger the house the client lived in, the less likely you were to receive gratuity... and I dealt with a lot of clients from Morgan Stanley)

I truly hated this job.

Back to the airports, JFK is easily my favorite of the three. LaGuardia was a shithole back then... it's improved, they recently completed major renovations. But back in the 90s, no amount of damage caused by a fight with Demona could ever be noticed.

Another fun fact, LaGuardia is practically next door to Rikers' Island... so that plane taking off at the beginning of "Leader of the Pack" as Coyote scales the prison is accurate. "Gargoyles" did hit the mark way more often than it didn't.

I know you know all this Craig, but I figure not everyone in here does.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Thu, Dec 12, 2024 10:58:20 pm EST from 67.189.200.184

Bishansky > Actually, my geographical comment was regarding the scene in "Revelations" where Matt nearly drives off the cliff. I was replying to two Todd episode "rambles" at once. Sorry for the confusion. But good thoughts on the airport, and I agree.
Craig
posted @ Thu, Dec 12, 2024 10:40:00 pm EST from 69.118.30.106

And it's late, I misread the post.

Yeah, I don't know where the scene where Matt nearly drives off the road takes place either. I was thinking Riverside Drive or near but... yeah, can't think of anything in NYC that looks like that off the top of my head. Unless it's way, way, way up town.

Gargoyles did really well in depicting New York City, way better than most. But it didn't always hit the mark. The only animated series I can think of that did was the sixth and seventh season of "The Venture Bros" but then that show was produced in Manhattan.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Thu, Dec 12, 2024 10:37:48 pm EST from 67.189.200.184

CRAIG> "That being said...yeah, Todd, I'm really not sure where that scene is supposed to be taking place. Based on the location of the 23rd Precinct, I'm guessing somewhere on the FDR Drive (along the East River), but I can't think of any part of the road that looks like that, with the steep drop down to the sea, and also the rising cliff faces on the other side. Suspension of disbelief, I suppose."

Fellow New Yorker here, I've been pondering myself. I didn't think it was the FDR, I figured Goliath and Elisa did cross the East River here. Yeah, it's outside of Goliath's protectorate, but I think he would make an exception to thwart Xanatos. Hell, they might even venture into New Jersey for that one. But seriously, I think they're definitely in Queens.

As for which airport? For some reason I always thought JFK. It's much, much larger than LaGuardia. I know there's a lot more corporate interests there. Both do handle international flights, but generally speaking JFK is a larger international airport while LaGuardia is suited for international... though I've flown both domestic and international from both.

I think the geography of the hill Elisa and Goliath are standing on makes me think JFK. I dunno.

The memo for the episode kind of goes "Either/Or". Personally, I would like it to be JFK so that we cans say both airports were featured.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Thu, Dec 12, 2024 10:34:01 pm EST from 67.189.200.184

"Outfoxed" was the first episode of Gargoyles that I pegged as a "miss" when I first watched it. Not awful, but it felt far below the level of the prior 26 episodes, for a few reasons. Still, 26 episodes of sustained greatness or near-greatness is a pretty damned impressive run compared to most shows, especially for animated shows in that era.

For one thing, the animation from the Chinese studio Hong Ying was by far the least impressive we'd seen so far on the show (they would go on to do an even worse job on "Monsters"). The amount of time spent in the episode on Goliath fighting robots was just boring to me...even at age eleven-going-on-twelve, I just didn't find that kind of action compelling. And then of course there was the nearly two minutes of reused footage from "Awakening," which felt cheap (now of course I know it was done more out of desperation than cheapness). And yes, I felt it was painfully obvious that they had just reused Owen's character model for Vogel and colored it differently. Obviously I was underestimating the show on that last count...but in light of the reused footage AND the poor quality of animation in the episode (and general practices in 1990s animation), I don't think I was unreasonable in my assumption at the time. (I was of course delighted when I realized I'd been wrong, many many months later.)

I'm more forgiving of the episode's flaws now. But even then, as critical as I was feeling overall, the character of Halcyon Renard really grabbed me and to some extent redeemed the episode's shortcomings. Even as a kid, I was partial to crusty older dudes in fiction, particularly those with a highly-developed moral code. Both Renard as a character, and the episode's moral, were SO specific, so unique from anything else you'd really seen in 1990s kids' shows where the morals tended to be more facile and easy to grasp. I felt that Renard was being ridiculously hard on Goliath, and yet I admired him for it and could see where he was coming from (as Goliath eventually did as well, of course). I love that Greg has made Renard a Calvinist. And of course, there's Robert Culp's incredible performance. I now know that my mom had a huge crush on him in the 1960s, but at the time I had no idea who he was; I just thought he did a terrific job in this role. I love hearing Greg's stories about how hard Culp worked in the booth, because it comes through in every single syllable. R.I.P. to a great actor, and now to a great character as well. The Gargoyles world is a bit poorer without him, even as his death was necessary storywise.

And the Fox stuff is obviously the other thing that boosts the episode. That ending revelation was certainly a shocker, but her characterization overall throughout the episode is just so cool.

"Revelations," on the other hand, was an instant favorite. (Of course, back in 1995, we got "The Price" first, and that was also an instant favorite.) I was a massive Bluestone fan from his first appearance, and the combination of the noirish tone (complete with Chandler-esque narration) and the series' biggest Illuminati deep-dive yet had me wide-eyed. And that first act break cliffhanger was incredibly terrifying. I couldn't believe they let a main character become that unhinged and scary...and it's a testament to Elisa's guilt at the secret she's been keeping that she forgives Matt so easily. I'm not sure that I would have!

That being said...yeah, Todd, I'm really not sure where that scene is supposed to be taking place. Based on the location of the 23rd Precinct, I'm guessing somewhere on the FDR Drive (along the East River), but I can't think of any part of the road that looks like that, with the steep drop down to the sea, and also the rising cliff faces on the other side. Suspension of disbelief, I suppose.
Craig
posted @ Thu, Dec 12, 2024 10:23:38 pm EST from 69.118.30.106

MATTHEW - This only occurred to me after my last post, but Anastasia could be another example (alongside Owen and Sevarius) of someone whom Renard didn't know the full story about. We later on learn that the real reason why she'd left Renard was that she was the "fairy queen" who found it difficult to remain interested in a human mate for long.

Rewatched "Revelations" today. In this episode, Matt finally gets to meet both the gargoyles and the Illuminati - and, in what now feels like a forerunner to "Here in Manhattan", he narrates the episode as well. While the focus is on Matt, we also find out more about Elisa - particularly the look into why she's so unwilling to tell others, even those whom she can trust, about the gargoyles.

And we find out that while Matt was on a false lead in "The Silver Falcon", he was correct about Mace Malone being one of the Illuminati and that being the reason for his disappearance. With Mace Malone making his one on-stage appearance in the series (unless we meet him again in flashbacks, or even a Timedancer adventure), as another tough opponent (if one who winds up coming to a bad end).

I was expecting to see more of the Illuminati in Season Two after viewing this episode for the first time (and the big twist ending - which I hadn't expected - of Hacker being one of them), and was a bit disappointed when we didn't. Of course, the Illuminati being behind the Quarrymen (and, from the evidence, having it ready to go even before the events in "Hunter's Moon" - I still really like the mention in Greg Weisman's "Today in the Gargoyles Universe" of the Illuminati approaching the Canmores about it, but Jason turning them down, presumably with a tone of "The Hunt is Canmore business. We don't need anyone else's help.") does explain much about their silence for the rest of the season from an "in-universe" perspective. Also, I think there's one challenge with an adversary like the Illuminati, coldly level-headed; you have to make their failure to dispose of the gargoyles convincing, the same as with Xanatos. (One big reason for all those "what my real scheme was" moments with Xanatos, of coourse.) It makes the passion-driven adversaries like Demona and the Pack easier to write. (Of course, since then, we've seen Greg Weisman making use of an Illuminati-ish group in "Young Justice" and leaving us with the feeling, even with the team surviving their encounters with the Light on so many occasions, that the Light are a formidable organization.)

The Hotel Cabal had a few "one-eyed pyramid logos" in its rooms and corridors (even by the elevators), which seemed a bit odd to me at first, until I remembered that there'd be only two groups of people visiting: the Illuminati (who already know about that symbol), and the people they're interrogating, who'll be "the guests who check in but don't check out" (a concept, by the way, going back to many tales about corrupt innkeepers and their victims, such as Master Thomas of Reading in Shakespeare's day - of course, those innkeepers were motivated simply by greed rather than information-gathering schemes on a larger scale), so it doesn't matter if they see the symbol. The neon sign glowing in the night outside, on the other hand - that I can't work out....

I've long had the creativity demon of the FBI (the members not in the Society, of course), back when Matt worked for them, viewing his investigations into the Illuminati with a tone of "First that nut in the basement who's talking about his little sister being abducted by aliens, and now this."

A question for those more familiar with the patrolling grounds of the NYPD than I am: are these likely to include that lonely drive by the sea, with no buildings in sight, that Elisa and Matt were on? It certainly looks well outside their regular area.

We get an outsider's look at the things Elisa's supplied the gargoyles with, including books and videos. Which might raise the question of how she was able to afford "enough food for a family of gorillas" (and how Hudson and the trio managed during the Avalon World Tour). The books and videos are less of a problem; Elisa could have bought them at library book sales or some other place like that. (I might have mentioned this before, but my local library has a "used book corner" where they sell books they're getting rid of for very low prices, less than a dollar in many cases; among the books I've bought there is a little one on gargoyles which included a few paragraphs on the animated series, and even included Station 8 in the bibliography at the end).

Matt's hotel key, which saves Goliath's life, is No. 13 - definitely a piece of irony.

When an alarmed Mace Malone got a high-tech looking gun to use on Goliath, I wondered this time around whether it was one of the ones that Tony Dracon stole from Xanatos back in "Deadly Force" and had gotten sold before Goliath destroyed most of the lot. Trust the Illuminati to get their hands on a few of those.

Elisa presumably wasn't aware, when she was talking about being the only human friend the gargoyles had made, about Hudson making friends with Jeffrey Robbins, or Goliath with Renard (just one episode earlier, in the latter case).

FAVORITE LINES.


ELISA: You OK? Our shift's almost over, and you haven't said three words all night.

MATT: Let. Me. Drive.


HUDSON: Heads up, lads. We've got a bit more company than usual.


MATT: I can get us past the lock.

GOLIATH (demolishing it): So can I.


MACE MALONE (on Goliath): Funny how the least little thing sets him off.


MACE MALONE: The strength I was expecting, but not the boundless fortitude, the indomitable spirit. This is a true warrior! Breaking him may take a bit longer than usual.


MACE MALONE: You played me for a fool, Bluestone! You and the gargoyle were in it together!

MATT: What can I say, Mace? When you're right, you're right.


MATT: Just tell me why. Why did you keep me in the dark for so long?

ELISA: I guess, I just didn't want to share them. As long as I was the only human they confided in, it made me feel... speccial.

MATT: I think I know what you mean. That might be why I've chased the Illuminati for so long. People may have thought I was a nutcase, but at least I stood out.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Dec 12, 2024 7:49:27 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

"Renard's an odd figure, old, grouchy, and needlessly antagonistic but also moral and committed to the right thing."

I mentioned this a while back, but Renard reminds me of George C. Scott's character in Hardcore. Like Renard, the man is a Calvinist with a strict moral code and a daughter who is much more of a free spirit. When he discovers his daughter is working in the porn industry, he creates his own fake porn studio to infiltrate that underworld and save his daughter. But [SPOILER] when he finally finds her, he realizes she was not forced into the industry but chose to join, saying she liked the job. So, like Renard, he has to accept that while he loves his daughter, their senses of morality are incompatible (obviously a metaphor for God's love for sinful humans). [/SPOILER].
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Thu, Dec 12, 2024 3:33:32 pm EST from 75.236.95.178

MATTHEW - Yes, I'm not certain that anybody was expecting Cyberbiotics to return. (One thing I also noted about this episode, but forgot to mention in my review, was that Goliath is expecting the attack on Fortress-Two to come from Xanatos - when, in fact, it's Fox who's carrying it out instead, and Xanatos even displays a rare moment of uneasiness about that scheming.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Dec 12, 2024 8:21:41 am EST from 68.99.93.213

"Outfoxed" or "Who would've thought there'd be repercussions to our actions from the pilot?"

As a kid I would have never guessed that the company our heroes stole from in the beginning would come back like this. Corporations in cartoons usually exist for episode plot reasons and nothing more. It also features that most elusive creature, some would even call a cryptid, an ethical billionaire. Renard's an odd figure, old, grouchy, and needlessly antagonistic but also moral and committed to the right thing. He makes an interesting counterpoint to the younger, more charismatic Xanatos.

What I also find interesting is that Renard holds such a high standard on morals and responsibility and cites Xanatos as a corruptor towards Owen and Sevarius. The former is of course that classical trickster and doesn't hold Renard's morality with much importance. And the latter, I think it's safe to say Anton was always a sociopath, he just hid it until Xanatos' money and affluence came in. His lecture towards Goliath about naivety and being tricked doesn't excuse your actions goes to show that even the voice of the lesson of the episode still has things to learn.

As for Renard and Petros' interactions. I like to imagine it being similar to when Odo and Worf met on Deep Space 9. Two antisocial grumps discussing the best ways to avoid social niceties.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Thu, Dec 12, 2024 6:10:35 am EST from 135.180.3.149

"Quest" #5 got to me today. Guess it makes sense I'd be on the one-week-late end of things this time around--but enough complaining.

[SPOILER]
I am going to admit that, with all the speculation about who was going to get offed in this issue, I was really nervous to pick it up. One has to get the rest of the story, I suppose, but still...

I think I'd seen some mention upstream about the art being noticeably different this time around. It is. It feels more expressive here than previously, and I actually appreciate it better this way. I would say it had more of a manga feel to it, if I had confidence I knew that was the right term for it. I don't, so never mind. But you take for example Demona's reaction to being called "Mother" on the third page. The artwork in this issue is a whole lot less stoic than the past four, and for the better, I think.

So, everyone is reacting to the music, and I mean everyone. So much for Robbins being unaffected, I guess. (He actually looks really relaxed there, somehow. I guess "staying put" is keeping him at ease.)

I really like Goliath trying back the "act as if you were not enchanted" bit: nice callback to the original series, and of course it makes total sense that he would try it again. Too bad Demona, evidently, got there first. Oh well.

We also had speculation that Demona would send all the humans into the sea, which she then addresses directly. (Gah! She's reading the Comment Room!) A brilliant triptych at the bottom of page four; Demona is just such a b---.

Awesome to see Angela get it right away by page six, and telling Xanatos to prevent what would otherwise have been a terrific spread of combat between our heroes and a helluva lotta Iron Clan robots. And of course the penny drops immediately after: Coldstone tries to reason with Goliath, who's having none of it, and Coldfire's reaction shows.

So then we get a pretty awesome sequence in which Coldfire takes charge of chasing down Demona, and off they go to...La Guardia? I mean, all right. I would think Demona would've aimed for Kennedy, myself, just to have more options, but, fine. And so we get the whole clan in on the fight, and I think this is the first time we have really seen something this big. Seeing Brooklyn's role as lieutenant here is unique: taking command of the side fight to let Goliath go have the main fight.

And now the twist: that the spell goes so far as to control gargoyles who have any connection to humanity, including Coldstone and Coldfire. I will admit: this twist feels off somehow. It feels a bit contrived (particularly in the case of Jade and Turquesa). I can't complain too bitterly as the story's the story, but that feels a bit like the spell is going further than it ought. Oh well.

Aha, the "stink of humanity" line! I'll admit I only know about that from here, and the references to the radio play. (D--- it all, why the h---- did I have to come to the fandom so late and miss that?) But it is sufficient to anger Goliath and so the final battle begins.

The trick of saying "lightning" to get lightning is another weird twist. Again, yes, I suppose. This thing is turning out to be a lot more powerful than it seemed at first.

Goliath's throwing the line about "reeking of humanity" back at Angela is (a) only fair, (b) proof he knows about her day life, and I suspect (c) suggestive of...something. That one skates close to the line, maybe, but those who know...know.

Anyway, in comes Angela, and the description of it as "family time" is cute. In the end it was always going to be Angela who'd have to defeat Demona. And, she still hasn't given up hope. I love that for her. It may never pay off in her lifetime, but it seems like a character trait that she'd hold on to hope above all else.

And Goliath drops the A-bomb, playing the Wyvern card with Demona. She really will never face up to it, will she? (Will she? Time may tell.) And so the fight ends with the good guys on top...it seems.

And then the denouement. Broadway's turkey actually doesn't look that ruined to me (maybe it turned out like the turkey in "National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation"). Lexington offers to pay ruinous 1997 international dialing charges to talk to Amp. And life starts to go on.

And then the consequences. Once again, Coldstone is a master of dissembling. I suspect that, to some degree, he is accepting of Elisa (we saw this back a ways, where he admitted that the love between her and Goliath was real), but then he is also forthright when called out by Coldfire. And I wonder slightly about that: her near-vicious denunciation of him, especially compared to Goliath's somewhat baffled response ("I suppose that is so"). How much of him does she know? What's her plan?

Coldstone's dissembling is so good that I almost believe him through this issue, first in his pleas to Goliath that they can keep the humans from being harmed by Demona, and then here, with his "stoic acceptance" of his exile. Wasn't until I looked closely at the last page that I really realized. To some degree I do still wonder how much of it is Coldstone being honest and how much is him being, as he'd probably see it, practical. Does he, in fact, think that what he is doing can help moderate Demona? His motivations do seem to be to protect his clan, even if he has a bad idea of how to do that. It gives me a little hope yet that he will come to redemption, someday, perhaps even in the next chapter.

Bitter. bitter irony now, as we wind things up, with Elisa wondering at one of the clan betraying it and then instantly remembering her own betrayal (also under Demona's influence), and a startling turn of events that, in hindsight, we've been leading up to all through this series. All this time, people in the Room have been speculating that someone was going to buy it, and the most obvious subject never (as I recall) came up. I confess that, seeing the panel in which Elisa is firing, for a dark moment I thought she'd shot up Egwardo, and it took a second to see where those darts had landed.

And so we end, in what I suspect will be the lead in to the "Demona" series, and a confirmation that Coldstone has in fact gone over to the dark side (at least for now), more's the pity.
[/SPOILER]

A fine ending to this chapter and worth the wait, and definitely a good setup for the next chapter of the story.
morrand - [morrand276 at gmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Dec 11, 2024 9:22:18 pm EST from 108.69.72.60

Rewatched "Outfoxed" today. This episode introduced Halcyon Renard into the series, thereby starting on the chain of events that resulted in Goliath now be a part-owner (much to his alarm) of Cyberbiotics. It also shared us more information about Fox, including the fact that she's pregnant. I remember wondering what Xanatos and Fox's offspring would be like, the first time I saw that episode.

It struck me that the lesson Goliath learns or re-learns here, to take responsibility for your actions, felt all the more well-timed, coming shortly after "City of Stone" - where we saw the devastating consequences for Demona of not doing that. In Goliath's case, the "not my fault" approach feels all the more a temptation because he was duped. Demona carried out her betrayals fully aware of what she was doing (if maybe under the mistaken belief that Macbeth was considering abandoning her in the latter case), while Goliath honestly believed that Cyberbiotics had stolen the disks from Xanatos and he was simply recovering them. (Not to mention that destroying Fortress-One was entirely Demona's idea and doing, which Goliath did not consent to and was horrified by.) But as Renard points out, it doesn't change the fact that he still stole the disks, and was involved in a lot of damage to the company. And Goliath, conversing with Renard, comes to recognize that and take responsibility for his role in the events. (He also alludes to Demona and their estrangement in a particularly moving moment, one that helps Renard see just how much they have in common.)

(I still find Renard's response to Goliath remarkable by the fact that, confronted with a living gargoyle who oughtn't to exist outside of a fantasy book, movie, or game, he proceeds to lecture that gargoyle on owning up for your actions as if Goliath was a human. Of course, it's hinted earlier in their meeting that Renard believed Goliath to be a Mutate, and thus originally human - but I can't help thinking that it's a case of just how seriously Renard takes the "take responsibility for what you've done" lesson seriously, that hearing "It's not my fault" is enough to make him forget that the being who said "not my fault" has batlike wings, a tail, and other unusual features. In fact, this feels a bit like Petros Xanatos, who even after experiencing living gargoyles and time travel, still remained focused on his disapproval of his son's conduct - and how. It's a pity that Petros and Renard only got to meet once; I think they'd truly respect each other.)

Fox turning out to be Renard's daughter surprised me the first time I saw the episode, but it certainly makes sense to me now. It tied in with her showing a lot of familiarity about him (in the martial arts scene), far more than you'd expect if he was just a business rival, and Renard's bitter mention of what Xanatos had taken from him. And, most importantly, his surname being "Renard" - the French word for "fox". (And all the more apt here, since it originated as the name of one of the great tricksters of legend, making it so appropriate for Fox, who especially displays a strong trickster style in this episode. In fact, the word "renard" for "fox" originated from the medieval tales of "Reynard the Fox"; originally, the French word for "fox" was "goupil". I might add that Disney once thought of doing an animated adaptation of Reynard's adventures, but wound up turning it into "Robin Hood" instead, which explains why they did the cast of the familiar English legend as animals. They weren't the first to consider retelling that story only to wind up doing something else, either; in 1959, a couple of French comics-makers, Rene Goscinny and Albert Uderzo, were planning on making a comic strip adaptation of Reynard's tale, only to discover after they'd finished the first page that someone else was already doing it. So they looked for a new subject and came up with a Gaulish village defying Julius Caesar and his Roman legions - which shows that having someone else beat you to something can turn out to be a good thing.)

And Fox definitely shows how much of a trickster she is - even scoring one on Xanatos with the "test results" moment. And the ending shows her approach towards the whole scheme; instead of grumbling over how the plan failed, she cheerfully glides out (literally) to Fortress-Two to tease her father and give him the surprise news that he'll be a grandfather. It's clear that she's doing this for the fun of the plan-making, rather than the results.

And we also meet Preston Vogel for the first time. I can't remember now if I noticed his similarity to Owen - but I know that others did. And what a surprise we got when we found out why!

Perhaps the one weak point of the episode is the flashback to "Awakening"; while it helps remind the audience about the initial blow to Cyberbiotics, it does seem a bit longer than necessary. (Probably the old case of "padding the episode out".)

Goliath's remarks on the Cybots (see the "Favorite Lines" section below) strike me as applying well to our visiting spam-bots.

I can't help feeling that this episode has probably unsettled some viewers after the events of September 11 - not just the fact that Fortress-Two is in danger of crashing into the Cyberbiotics Tower, but earlier, when we see it flying towards the Twin Towers.

This time around, I noticed Fortress-Two taking off from what looked like a regular airport (with at least one big airplane) and wondered if it was [SPOILER] LaGuardia Airport, which has recently served as the location for a major showdown with Demona. [/SPOILER]

Another fine episode.

FAVORITE LINES.

TRAVIS MARSHALL: One last question: is it true that Renard has invested his entire fortune into the "Fortress Two", and if it doesn't perform he and Cyberbiotics will be wiped out?

VOGEL: That's two questions, Mr. Marshall, and the interview is over.


VOGEL (spotting Goliath): On - on our tail, sir. We have a - I don't know what we have.


GOLIATH (fighting off the Cybots): How do you reason with machines?


GOLIATH: No more excuses. I accept full responsibility for my actions. I was wrong.

RENARD: I'm glad you're gargoyle enough to admit it.

GOLIATH: It was not easy.

RENARD: Integrity is never easy. It's a daily struggle, a constant struggle. If you only knew what it cost me.... My Anastasia My Janine.

GOLIATH: My angel of the night.

RENARD (astonished): Well, perhaps you do know after all.


RENARD: Well, it seems Mr. Vogel's betrayal has only provided further proof that the human species is devoid of integrity.

GOLIATH: I disagree. If anything, Vogel's sabotage demonstrates the folly of placing all of one's trust in single-minded automatons. Automatons know nothing of betrayal or honor. They know only what they are programmed to know. Only living beings possess the ability to change and make new choices. Ultimately, Vogel chose honor.

RENARD: Heh! I suppose he did, at that. You've given me much to consider. But one thing I am sure of: your debt to me has been paid in full. A ship for a ship. We are even.

GOLIATH: No. We are friends.

RENARD: Yes. Friends.


RENARD: Hello, Janine.

FOX (unhooding): Hello, daddy. Almost got you that time, didn't I?

RENARD: Yes, but why? I built this company for you. I'd have given it to you, if you hadn't married that villain Xanatos. I'd probably still give it to you, if you'd just stand up and ask me for it honestly.

FOX: Oh, daddy. You and your integrity. Asking for it wouldn't be any fun at all.

RENARD (shaking his head): And fun is still more important to you than honor. I can't understand that.

FOX: Well, maybe you'll have better luck relating to the next generation.

RENARD: What? What are you -

FOX: That's right, daddy. You're going to be a grandfather.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Dec 11, 2024 7:43:17 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

Yeah, I can't see why the Illuminati would be aware of Fox and Alexander's heritage... well, as of Hunter's Moon anyway. I imagine that's a closely guarded secret. As of the end of "Hunter's Moon Part Three" this is who knew:

1. David Xanatos
2. Owen Burnett/Puck
3. Petros Xanatos
4. Halcyon Renard [SPOILER] (R.I.P.) [/SPOILER]
5. Preston Vogel
6. Goliath
7. Hudson
8. Angela
9. Brooklyn
10. Lexington
11. Broadway

I'm going to assume Elisa Maza was filled in, if the clan knows it then Elisa (who is part of the clan) knows, too. She definitely knew by "Miracle Child".

Now, as of "Queen of All She Surveys":

[SPOILER] 1. Katana
2. Gnash
3. Coldfire
4. Coldstone
5. Dr. Sato
6. Talon
7. Demona
8. Antoinette Dracon

Demona and Antoinette know because Coldstone would likely have filled them in. If Coldstone knows any of the clan's secrets, let's assume he told Demona.

But Talon also now knows. How loose are Talon's lips down in the Labyrinth? Has it been mentioned in front of Shari? Because if it has.... [/SPOILER]
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Wed, Dec 11, 2024 8:32:38 am EST from 67.189.200.184

The updates to the GargWiki entry on "the Caped Crusader" mentioned that the climactic battle of "Hunter's Moon" was at one point to be set in a "sea amusement park", but they changed it because it was too similar to the setting in a "Batman: TAS" movie (the "Mark of the Phantasm" one that Matthew mentioned here last week).

Similarity aside, I'm glad they made the change. I think that a condemned cathedral fitted the mood and atmosphere of the conclusion of "Hunter's Moon" far better than an amusement park would have done.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Dec 11, 2024 8:06:16 am EST from 68.99.93.213

[SPOILER] So how do you think the Illuminati's going to take that some of their members were compromised while the under the thrall of Demona? [/SPOILER]
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Tue, Dec 10, 2024 11:45:24 pm EST from 135.180.3.149

Matt> Thanks.

Well some details The Illuminati were/are unaware of by the end of the Hunter's Moon 3 parter, presumably up to the comic's present is Owen being Puck and Alexander's magic potential.

https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=51

https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=4606
Antiyonder
posted @ Tue, Dec 10, 2024 6:13:47 pm EST from 68.119.3.1

Antiyonder> I'm appreciated all of these old gems you are discovering in the archives and sharing with us here and on the Gargwiki. Keep it up!
Matt
"Human problems become gargoyle problems..."
posted @ Tue, Dec 10, 2024 5:01:13 pm EST from 47.233.90.133

https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=190

Huh. So a very old answer from 1998 where Greg said Katharine and Tom weren't officially married. I'd almost think Tyrant changes that detail, but would Brooklyn stating that he "kinda" married match what Greg said then?
Antiyonder
posted @ Tue, Dec 10, 2024 5:01:54 am EST from 68.119.3.1

Seventh. Eighth if we include the bot. Glad the bots have at least learned to use spoiler tags (sort of).
Craig
posted @ Tue, Dec 10, 2024 3:50:03 am EST from 166.198.21.33

[SPOILER] [/SPOILER]

Whatever this is, still thanking you for sharing.
Louise - [nqn60198 at inohm dot com]
Residential Electrician Central Coast
posted @ Tue, Dec 10, 2024 2:26:52 am EST from 112.208.70.180

Has anyone scene this before?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CTFoVBPHN8
Adam
posted @ Mon, Dec 9, 2024 2:33:15 pm EST from 208.87.237.180

Great post, Blaise, thanks for sharing!
Matt
"Human problems become gargoyle problems..."
posted @ Mon, Dec 9, 2024 9:36:08 am EST from 204.184.178.1

BLAISE - Thanks for your review.

I've been wondering about the "in-story chronology" of the Winter Special. The fact that Bronx is on his own (no hint of Fu-Dog) makes me wonder whether this is set before the end of "Clan-Building", maybe even back when the gargoyles lived in the clock tower. And more recently, I couldn't resist speculating that it might be set during "The Price", to show what Bronx was doing while the rest of the clan was having that adventure (it fits both the snowy setting and Bronx being off-stage throughout that episode). We'll find out in a little over a week.

I don't know how many people here remember the Jeremy Brett adaptations of Sherlock Holmes, but I recently recalled their dramatization of "The Six Napoleons". (For those who aren't familiar with the story, Holmes is investigating a case of someone smashing busts of Napoleon. Scotland Yard and Dr. Watson think that the person doing this is driven by a hatred for Napoleon - maybe his family suffered some great loss during the Napoleonic Wars - but Holmes doubts it, pointing out that the person is singling out a specific set of busts - I won't give away the ending, of course.) One of the people involved in the case is a member of the Mafia, whose sister turns out to also have a part to play in it. In the Jeremy Brett dramatization, Marina Sirtis played the sister; this recently stood out to me when I remembered it, given who one of Demona's leading associates is at present.

Finally, a creativity demon I recently had about the follow-up to "Gargoyles Quest". [SPOILER] If Demona's still got Egwardo when it hatches, I have a vision of her discovering one thing she hadn't taken into consideration; the new hatchling is hungry, needs to be fed, and as the only female gargoyle present, she's the one stuck feeding it. After a while of this, Demona decides that she definitely needs to convert a few female gargoyles to her cause. (Of course, she could always order Coldstone to bottle-feed it - which could lead to an amusing picture - amusing to everyone other than Coldstone, that is.) [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Dec 9, 2024 8:13:48 am EST from 68.99.93.213

Additionally, when I made my Aladdin article for the wiki, the references in Canon, plus that poorly drawn episode of TGC which also called back to The New Olympians had Elisa's face looking more Jasmine were the reasons I made said article.

But reflecting on the shared cast members between both shows, I did a mini comparison between The New Olympians episode, plus Aladdin's episode The Animal Kingdom. Former clearly indicates that Elisa didn't turn things around entirely for the New Olympians attitude on humans while the latter ends more hopeful.

Also, both stories had Michael Dorn voicing Taraus and Brisbane.

When I told a friend this on his tumblr account, he responded that it seems like all Michael Dorn characters hate humanity.XD. Can't imagine why.
Antiyonder
posted @ Mon, Dec 9, 2024 4:39:04 am EST from 68.119.3.1

Taurus likes Worf, huh? Maybe he feels a kinship considering they're both heads of security.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Mon, Dec 9, 2024 3:51:36 am EST from 135.180.3.149

Second.

I'll be getting my copy of Gargoyles Quest #5 this week.

Oh and a bit of old trivia:
https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=2027

Taurus likes Worf. Why? What's the significance? I don’t know!XD
Antiyonder
posted @ Mon, Dec 9, 2024 3:42:44 am EST from 68.119.3.1

****A wet and bedraggled Blaise stumbles into the Comment Room.****
FIRST!!
Bit of an interesting week for me last week. No, I was not magically compelled to walk into a body of water, this was just a regular pipe coming out and flooding a floor or two. Not at my home thankfully, just the day job. A bright point of the week, though, is the new issue!!

QUEEN OF ALL SHE SURVEYS> Glad we didn’t have to wait more than a month! (Still makes me wonder if the previous issue was delayed *just* to coincide with November/Thanksgiving, but whatever.) Be prepared: this is longer than usual.

[SPOILER] We start where we left off, and even get the return of “What sorcery is this?!” Demona’s response echoes the Magus’s from “Awakening Part Two” but I feel a difference in the emotion behind it. The Magus’s was more furious/vengeful, while Demona’s is more gloating/exultant. And she is definitely in full “smug snake” mode here, calling her victims “thralls” and I’m pretty sure being called a “magistra” is something she (consciously or subconsciously) added to this mind-control plague.

Inside, Angela has started to hear the music as well and drags Broadway with her to investigate. Broadway is, of course, concerned about the turkey which is supposed to fry for only nine more minutes. Broadway, dude...I am RIGHT THERE with you! I HATE it when food gets ruined! Why can’t calamity be more considerate?!
Meanwhile, on TV Travis Marshall breaks in with a “Special Report” about how “all of Manhattan awaits the commands of our new Gargoyle-Magisters and especially our Gargoyle-Magistra.” Yeah, like I said last time: I can see this hurting the progress the gargoyles have already made in being accepted by the human populace. To what extent, though, we’ll have to wait and see. If nothing else, though, this broadcast clues in Gnash and the Guatemala Duo that something is up, while Turquesa also starts to hear the music.
In the library/computer lab, Lex has to abruptly end his chat with Amp (I love how Amp writes out the “Um...okay”--it’s the sort of thing I do) and Hudson tells Robbins to stay put for safety. And now it’s revealed that Robbins is apparently NOT immune to Demona’s spell this time around as he obeys Hudson with an “As you command.” However, he says “Maester” instead of “Magister.” I would imagine there is some significance to this (word choice in writing is important), but I cannot think of it yet. Perhaps it’s to indicate that while he is under the spell, it’s not quite the same as it is for everyone else.

Outside of the castle, we see Shari and Sevarius kneeling to Thailog and Brentwood, with the latter smiling. Thailog, I think, is still running through all the implications in his mind.
And Coldfire and Coldstone are flying back to the Eyrie Building.

Goliath tries Elisa’s trick from “Temptation” to break the spell on her, but it seems Demona had already thought of that (or maybe heard about it somehow) and already countermanded that particular loophole. I love how Elisa is stroking Goliath’s face even as she says she can’t fulfill his command. Also Demona’s smile as Goliath makes his attempt...she knows what he’s trying here.
The rest of the clan start to arrive and let Goliath know the problem isn’t just limited to the folks at the Castle. Angela calls Demona out...and Demona, once again, stops for a moment. In my mind, the emotion in Angela’s “What have you done” is a mixture of anger, fear and hurt that manages to pierce through Demona just enough to reach the Angel still buried deep in her core. But Demona is the Queen of denial and slips right back into a deluded “I've saved us all” spiel.

Two of the gargoyles here who have actually seen the future discuss this situation as Katana mentions that they know the humans weren’t thralls in 2198, but Brooklyn points out the limits of their knowledge. Their lines here also indicate just how thorough Brooklyn was with his “no spoilers” policy. Granted, I feel he’s engaging in a bit of hyperbole here when he says Demona’s reign might have lasted for decades, but that is perfectly in character for him to do as a way of indicating just how much they can’t take her plan’s inevitable foiling for granted. I’m also intrigued by Katana specifically stating the year 2198, as that (along with the time stamp back during the montage in “Underwater”) definitely indicates that Brooklyn was there with Katana as well as Fu-Dog (and Gnash) within that first year of the invasion, as opposed to just Brooklyn and Fu-Dog per the “Gargoyles: 2198” plan. Of course, Canon-in-training is just that. Also the invasion took place in March so that’s about nine months for Brooklyn to pop in, pop out, and pop back in again with extra party members and still stay in 2198. Either way, I feel like I’m spending a bit too much text on just one panel right now.

Demona now...dances in the air (boy, she’s feeling good right now), as she brings up how she had considered the “go drown yourselves in the sea” path with this power, but has softened it (in her mind anyway) to “eternal slavery.” I can see this being her twisted idea of a compromise (she even calls it as much) and an olive branch to her old family (as others have suggested), but I think there’s another aspect to this as well: power. Demona is, and has been since *at least* 971, obsessed with power. It’s not enough for her people to be safe, they have to be the *RULERS* of the world...and she has to be the RULER of them! She is a megalomaniacal gargoyle-supremacist, so having humanity bow to her kind and her above all of them would scratch a very particular itch.

And naturally she just can’t understand how Goliath can’t see this as the best thing for everyone, so when it becomes apparent that the clan isn’t going to be on board with this, she orders Xanatos to cover her escape. He does so with ten (10!) Steel Clan robots (well, everybody’s got to have a hobby). Goliath is prepared to fight them, but Angela is able to channel her mother’s cunning here and immediately command Xanatos to call off the robots. She even calls him “David” here, something we’ve not heard any of the other gargoyles do. I agree with the idea that this is her way of exerting just that little extra bit of dominance over him (especially because her mother had already called him by his last name). I love Lex’s gripe about missing the “old Xanatos”; it can be disconcerting to see someone as in-control as their landlord be so...NOT that.

And now, Coldstone tries to make his own play, making the argument that this enchantment might be the surest way to make their clan, even their whole species, “safe in this world.” So long, of course, as they can stop Demona from abusing the humans.
ME (ala Bender in “Futurama”): [Laughs] Oh wait, you’re serious. Let me laugh even harder. [Laughs even harder]
But this is where Coldfire realizes what’s up--while not animated, I can all too easily imagine how quickly her head snapped in her mate’s direction when he started speaking this nonsense. Goliath isn’t as quick on the uptake but does not even consider this argument anyway. Coldstone’s use of the term Rhydderch here is something I’ll touch on later, but I do find it telling.

The problem now is finding Demona to follow her, but Coldfire has leveled up, and uses a combination of her spiritual sense (love the illustration of her true self at the top of the page here) with her tracking technology to pin-point Demona and the gargoyles are off! Even Gnash, who points out how bad things must be if no one is telling him to stay with the Beasts (I’m impressed with this subtle bit of foreshadowing here).

Demona has gone to the New York International Airport to bask in more subservience from her thralls, talk about how humans “so longed to steal even the skies” from the gargoyles, and quote “Ozymandias” (although apparently blind to the subtext that particular line is supposed to have). Oh, and to commandeer a plane to spread her influence faster (I wonder if she was planning to go to Washington D.C.). And not even a regular jet, it has to be a “luxury” jet (because she is just that much of a Karen...). But Our Heroes (and Coldstone) have caught up with her, so she switches to having all the airport people attack them instead. Brooklyn immediately barks out a command to have most of the clan stick with him and run interference with the whammied people while the Cold-Duo and Guatemalan Duo go with Goliath. One might wonder why he chose the specific individuals he did, but I get the feeling he chose (as quickly as possible) the ones he felt would be the most careful and capable with not hurting the people attacking them (we all know Coldstone is not one to trust with that..).

Goliath and the Duos reach Demona, but she says that she “targeted all humans with the lance of fate” and that means she can control the Cold-Duo because of their human-made bodies and the Guatemalan Duo because they wear pendants made by human sorcery. This is a development I expected, along with some others, because of the sort of “rough draft” we saw of this in the crossover radio play “Religious Studies 101.” The shot of Demona’s eyes intensifying their glow, though, leads me to believe this was not something her spell did originally, but rather Demona changing the parameters in the moment to give her an edge (and she is just the sort of person to change the rules of the game if she is losing). And with Jade and Turquesa she uses her gargoyle-supremacy to justify it because having the pendants means that they have “relinquished their gargoyle birth-right.” I imagine that the sorcery endemic to the pendants and the Cold-Duo’s very existence probably helps her to do this, too. It’s not perfect control, though: Jade and Turquesa kneel but don’t verbalize fealty, and Coldfire is audibly struggling to fight against it. I feel it’s ambiguous if Demona is controlling Coldstone, though, or if he’s just playing along. I personally prefer the latter idea because it means Demona is being a little cleverer than she usually is. She’s not gloating and revealing that Coldstone has been working for her and is instead giving him a cover. It feels like she’s actually hedging her bets here, putting a contingency in place in case she does lose. Something I feel like we don’t often see from her.

Still, Goliath is not under her spell, which Demona says surprises her because “the stink of [his] human is on [his] hair, on [his] lips, everywhere" (tell us how you really feel, Demona). She then makes the mistake of threatening Elisa (the language in the radio play was a bit more explicit with what Demona would do, but I actually like the vagueness here and all the possibilities behind it) which enrages Goliath enough that he breaks the hold of the Cold-Duo on his arms! And apparently makes them switch places--seriously, check the previous page, they were holding different arms.
Well, Demona can do more with the talismans than just the big spell and shoots Goliath with lightning from the Spear. But Goliath is a damage sponge so he tanks the bolt and rolls to come back up on his feet, allowing him to rush Demona and grab the flute, with the intent of turning her forces back on her. She then makes the bold claim that he can’t do that because she is “the last true gargoyle left on this world” (dear heaven, the delusion of this witch). A claim which is undercut a few panels later as, while she taunts Goliath with turning to stone at sunrise, he throws it back in her face by reminding her what she turns into during the day: “For I am not the only one who ‘reeks of humanity’--am I...Dominique.” And Demona’s eyes stop glowing for an instant. That shot hit home. She says she has “contingencies” (I would think possibly involving Coldstone and/or Antoinette), but she has a brief bit of hesitation there. I don’t know whether that’s because she was trying to figure out how to phrase it without letting on what those contingencies were or she had an “oh..uh, yeah, sure I know exactly what I’m doing” moment. Regardless, the Cold-Duo are back up and resume grappling with Goliath.

At the other massive melee, Angela coordinates with Broadway for her to leave their fight and join Goliath’s. Brooklyn just asks for clarification and doesn’t try to stop her “family time.” That time begins with Angela tackling Coldfire and (being clever again) giving Coldfire some wiggle room with Demona’s command. I think it’s telling that Coldfire not only stops stuttering when given that out, but also calls Angela “magistra”: she’s stopped fighting the control there. Demona futilely tells Angela to not interfere, with the latter stating she will always stand against Demona as long as she walks “the path of evil” (yeah, she's Goliath's daughter) but would “still embrace [her] gladly” if Demona just, you know, STOPPED being a genocidal megalomaniac. And for the second time, Demona’s eyes lose their glow for an instant. I don’t know which comes first, Demona’s big “NO” or Angela grabbing Cleopatra’s necklace, but either way Demona’s now fighting to hang onto two of the three talismans. And that seems to break enough of the control for Coldfire to, well, fire at Demona. But Demona had the “Shield” spell prepared today (what exactly is casting that, I wonder? The symbol seems to be centered on her tiara...). Jade and Turquesa are also free enough for the former to fight Coldstone off of Goliath (I love him calling Demona “bruja”). Demona makes a last ditch attempt to appeal to Goliath by asking him if he would save the humans so they might destroy the gargoyles one day (something she clearly views as a certainty), but Goliath says that *if* that happens, Demona “will be the likely cause,” and brings up a pretty good example: Wyvern. For the third time, Demona’s eyes stop glowing. These are three punches that got through her armor, and I don’t think it’s a coincidence that each coincides with someone else grabbing one of the talismans, as Turquesa snatches the Spear.

Finally, all three talismans are pulled away from Demona. Goliath is all for destroying them immediately, but Coldfire intuits that it would be better to do a “Dispel Magic” thing first. They say they “forever release from this geas” the humans (but is it “in perpetuity throughout the known and all unknown universes?”...sorry, I have a lawyer for a brother), and we get a shot of all the humans waking up. That includes Shari and Sevarius, with Brentwood saying, “Nice while it lasted...” I am already wondering what Thailog commanded during however long the spell lasted, in particular how many secrets he may have pulled from Shahrizad...
At the airport there’s a funny exchange between Gnash and a worker about who shoved whom while Goliath, Angela and Turquesa break the talismans. This time, however, they actually see the energies shoot off into the night, and Goliath and company are aware that this may mean trouble down the line. For now, though, it’s over...except Demona has escaped. And...it looks like Angela’s word bubble points to Turquesa...
[sigh and shrug] You know what? Errors happen. They’re annoying, but they happen. We had others this issue like the aforementioned arm-switching, we’ve had them in other issues, and we’ve had them in episodes. Some get corrected for the trades or later airings and some don’t. And some get corrected only to be UN-corrected later (looking at you, “Vows”). We know who’s really saying the line and it doesn’t ruin anything.

Elisa and Goliath meet at the Clock Tower again later that same night (in the AM hours of the 28th) to make sure everyone’s all right and give a bit of an epilogue. Jade and Turquesa have finally continued their journey and it looks like Avalon will be dropping them off back home. Zafiro looks a bit...miffed? I can imagine a conversation like:
ZAFIRO: There you are! Obsidiana and I were starting to worry the eggs would hatch before you got back! What took you so long?
TURQUESA: It is a long story, but with a happy ending. [shows Sun Amulet]
ZAFIRO: [jaw drop]

Broadway’s turkey is ruined, but he only allows himself a moment to grouse about it before going to comfort Angela, who is crying at once more failing to turn her mother from the Dark Side.
Hudson apologizes to Robbins for the ruined feast, but Robbins points out that it really is the least of their worries. I’ve seen some talk about how Robbins felt unnecessary here, but I disagree. First and foremost, since he had been immune to the spell in “City of Stone,” he was a great way of showcasing the reach and limitations of Demona’s spell here (I’m still wondering about that “Maester instead of Magister” wording). It’s also showing how things have progressed with the Clan and their friends that Robbins can visit Hudson at the Castle.
Lex picks up chatting with Amp, but the sun is about to rise in the UK, so the latter will have to wait for the full story...and Lex brings up calling Amp instead of chatting online. Good for them!

Goliath and Elisa at some point moved from the Clock Tower to the Castle (at least, that’s all I can guess from their change in locations), and Elisa is thanking Coldstone for his help, with the latter even calling Elisa "Clan." The dramatic irony is ended, though, when Coldfire confronts her mate about his treachery. Goliath is incredulous at first, but when Coldfire puts Coldstone on the spot he admits it, saying that he saw Demona’s plan as the “only true path to safety for our clan--and our species.” Goliath is angry, but I don’t think he’s as angry as Coldfire (and I feel that name is appropriate for her rage here), as she immediately says her mate must be banished. She loves him, but this is a bridge too far for her. I figured that Goliath would ultimately banish Coldstone but would need prompting to do so (the guy really missed his brother...), and sure enough Coldfire seems to take the lead here, with her also claiming the right to judge when he can return. And Coldstone doesn’t argue, but just says he accepts his punishment and leaves.

After an ominous scene of Owen smirking at the remains of Puck’s flute and a heartwarming panel of the Xanatos family together, we cut back to Elisa starting to say how she’d never have thought one of the Clan could betray them, when Katana lets out a Big “NO” from the Rookery. This is followed by Elisa giving a Rapid Fire “no” as she remembers just what Demona made her do...
I had been thinking throughout the earlier epilogue montage that things were a little too neat and safe. No clan member died (for which I am thankful), but there was a lot of build-up around Egwardo and what the egg meant for the clan. Likewise, I remember back in “Everywhere” noting that Demona was aware of the egg in the Rookery, and I couldn’t imagine her just letting that be. And I hadn’t noticed before, but Antoinette had been absent since the elevator ride up the Eyrie in last issue. So all of that comes together here, with the drugged Beasts, empty Rookery, and devastated TimeDancer family (contrasting the Xanatos family on the previous page).

Demona now has Egwardo, promising to raise the future gargoyle to “hate the humans and vie to destroy them...and any false gargoyles who stand in our way.” A claim she makes in front of Antoinette, who seems on board with it (and I think others have already sufficiently speculated on why she might be that way even without enchantment), and Coldstone. Not surprised he’s there as he probably felt he had no where else to go at this point.
The way Demona holds Egwardo here is interesting to me. It is, I’m sure, a reference to the cover of the Marvel comic book’s “The Egg and I,” but I also contrast it with how Katana held the egg back in Phoenix. I don’t think this egg is a “real being” to Demona so much as it is a tool. A prize and a pawn, not a potential person. Or maybe I'm just reading too much into how she holds the egg in such an unsafe way (seriously, in my mind I saw “HA HA, now *I* have the egg and I shall--WHOOPS!”).
This is the second story arc in a row that ends with a ”Xanatos Tag” given not by the man himself but by Demona. I feel like she’s been learning. Not in the important ways (like “stop being such a douche”) but in the scheming ways. The ways that make her even more dangerous.

So, we end with Demona’s scheme foiled, but with the Clan broken a bit and I’m sure with a hit to their PR. This leads into both the Demona miniseries we’ll be getting from Greg and Frank next year (can’t wait!) but also the holiday special where Bronx reunites a family with a lost member (thematic connection now). It will still be just under four months before Egwardo hatches in-universe, so there is still time to recover it before that, but this is a gut punch to Our Heroes, nonetheless. And then there's Coldstone...

A lot of folks have written about Coldstone already, and how he has always had anger and resentment as a part of his character. I know fear was also mentioned as a factor. For my own two cents, I come back to what I had said before about him still being in a 10th Century mindset. It's kind of like how Goliath was near the beginning of the series ("we beat Xanatos, so we own the Castle now, right?...right?!"), but where Goliath learned and grew, Coldstone didn't. The fact that he of all the clan still insists on using the term Rhydderch (Goliath’s use here seems to be answering his use) speaks to me of him holding onto the past more as well. Yeah, even more so than Hudson. I think this is another source of anger, resentment, and even fear: he feels like his people are losing themselves. In “the good old days” the gargoyles were masters of their cliffs, and you never had to worry about not killing your enemies in battle. They worked alongside humans, but were supposed to be their own separate people not beholden to them. In this modern era, Coldstone probably feels like his clan (maybe even his kind as a whole) is ”losing their way” and giving too much ground to humanity (never mind that humanity VASTLY outnumbers them and covers the planet). Of course, he seems to be the only one in the clan feeling this way. Feeling more and more out of place within his own clan, it probably made it all too easy for Demona to sway him to her way of thinking. And now? He really is “out of place” with his clan having been banished, so of course he goes back to the only family he thinks he has left. What *will* he be like without the influence of his mate, brother and the rest. Then again, being with them didn’t seem to stop his isolation to begin with. He does love them, but he has become convinced he and Demona have better ideas about what's best for the Gargoyles.
For now, I can imagine him going along with Demona for a while until she eventually does something so heinous he finally draws a line. Egg-napping Egwardo doesn’t seem to be that line yet, though (I buy that he can do plenty of mental gymnastics to justify going along with this).

If I had any complaints, it’s tied to how rich “Gargoyles” is and that not everything can make it into a given issue/episode given page/minute limits. I would have loved for Master Dawa to be mentioned somewhere seeing as he was nothing but helpful and understanding with Coldstone from what we saw. But there’s only so much space to work in everything and this was already a packed issue (and miniseries as a whole). [/SPOILER]
I’m glad we have more issues coming, because I could not imagine leaving things here. Onward!

I feel like I should say more (I'm enjoying Todd's re-watch comments), but this is all I have the time for at the moment. Hopefully, I'll be back soon enough to discuss the Winter Special!

****Blaise conjures up a gust of hot wind to dry him off. It winds up blowing him out of the Room, too.****
Blaise
"There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes."--The Doctor
posted @ Mon, Dec 9, 2024 1:40:10 am EST from 45.48.46.39