I hope Bronx enjoyed the snowfall last night!
Craig
posted @ Sat, Dec 21, 2024 7:32:04 pm EST from 69.118.30.106

Oh, and today's the winter solstice, when gargoyles (at least those in the northern hemisphere) are awake for the longest time of the year.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Dec 21, 2024 6:57:06 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

Yes, I think that it was truly impressive, seeing how much Princess Katharine and the Magus had changed, and for the better.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Dec 21, 2024 8:35:59 am EST from 68.99.93.213

And so begins the Avalon Trilogy. I keep forgetting how much was packed in the first episode. Once again we see Greg's skill in medieval drama with the fall of Kenneth II and rise of Constantine. While Greg wonders if Finella might've been able to overlook the murder, I personally think that at best she would only be able to convince herself that she could overlook it, until some day when her conscious gnawed away at her denial.

This is a great showing of Katherine and Magus, in their first appearance that didn't exactly endear themselves to the audience with their prejudice. But here they fight tooth and nail and go above and beyond risking their lives for their charges. Katherine's defiance while still maintaining her regality shows just how far she's come from the ungrateful princess she once was. A kind of "if her strength matched her will, no army could oppose her." And Magus demonstrates courage, ingenuity, and devotion worthy of a romantic hero. I'll discuss this at the end of the arc, but using the Weird Sisters' magic against them was brilliant. But we also see the first seeds of his tragedy as he places so much of his worth alongside the Grimorum.

But the really big things are that the Archmage, who was such a minor character is not only alive but laying siege to the famous Avalon itself. And that there are other gargoyles out there. How fitting to see them after the previous episode questioned Xanatos about his legacy.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sat, Dec 21, 2024 3:13:59 am EST from 135.180.3.149

Rewatched "Avalon Part One" today.

This is a major turning point in the series. Before this episode, it appeared that the only gargoyles left were the Manhattan clan and Demona (and also the unusual cases of Coldstone and Thailog). Now we learn that the eggs survived after all. (Truth to tell, even without Xanatos's claim that the eggs were gone, the sheer length of time since the Wyvern Massacre would have - under normal circumstances - ruled out their still being around. Hence I didn't question his statement even after we found out the truth about him.)

I hadn't expected it, but looking back on it now, I realize that I should have. If the series wasn't going to do anything with the eggs, why mention them at all in the medieval scenes of "Awakening"? (Of course, the movie version of "Awakening" left them out, understandably.) Not to mention seeing Princess Katharine, the Magus, and Tom leaving with the eggs from Demona's point of view in "City of Stone Part One". In light of these moments, from the storytelling point of view, the eggs would have to return.

And we get another medieval story, like "City of Stone", again drawing on the actual early history of Scotland - though this time, far less well-known than Macbeth's tale. I doubt anyone here had heard of Kenneth II or Constantine III before this episode aired. I remember eagerly looking them up after seeing this episode the first time. Needless to say, this made it another episode I really liked.

Finella might be the most memorable new character in this episode; she certainly comes across as effectively greyish. She'd rather marry Constantine than Kenneth, yet cares enough about the king that she wants to deny his suit without hurting his feelings - which plays in well with Constantine's scheme. He comes up with a good surface reason for the secret meeting in the drying-house - to spare him the humiliation of being turned down in front of his court. Finella is horrified when she sees what Constantine's real purpose was, but the final blow is when he announces that he'll make Katharine his queen instead of her. (I remember Greg Weisman speculating that she might have overlooked Constantine's murder of Kenneth if he hadn't cast her aside.)

One little touch that I particularly liked was the mention of Michaelmas, an actual medieval holiday and major turning point of the year (it's traditionally one of the four "quarter days" - the other three being the Annunciation on March 25, Midsummer's Day on June 24, and Christmas). It added to the atmosphere, I thought - and gave it a bit of much-needed publicity.

Turning to the present-day parts of the episode, now - I've wondered what the book was that Goliath stayed home to read. It certainly must have been an important one for him to not go out on patrol that night (and I suspect he didn't get the opportunity to finish it before Elisa arrived with the news about the Guardian).

And this time around, Bronx is visibly (and audibly) upset at being left behind, to lead into his getting to go to Avalon and take part in the World Tour.

Tom the Guardian definitely feels like an Arthurian-era knight (as Officer Morgan comments); he both looks the part (if with the armor looking more "gargoyle-ish" than your typical member of the Round Table) and speaks it (announcing that he's on a quest). Which is certainly appropriate, given where he's from....

FAVORITE LINES.

PRINCESS KATHARINE: If I go, Constantine will hunt me to the very ends of the earth.

MAGUS: Then I will take you beyond them.


MARY: I'll stay with Finella. A woman alone may run into trouble. Two women can cause plenty of it.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Dec 20, 2024 6:55:57 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

Craig: [SPOILER] I think there’s a case to be made from Coldstone’s point of view that it’s not child abduction. After all, he’s of the era where all the eggs belonged the clan and if he believes Demona and Coldstone are the ‘true’ clan then why would he leave and not bring his child with him? Now obviously that’s not how we see it, not how Brooklyn sees it and probably not how the rest of the clan see it. Frankly, I don’t think it would be how Demona sees it because she’s always much more human in her thought process than she’d ever confess to. But his moral framework is different. Not to say it isn't wrong, obviously, just that I don't think that moral line would be as troubling for him as the initial betrayal. [/SPOILER]

VOICES #53: Another absolute belter of an episode. I loved having Brynne’s input on this and hearing how she and Greg had different perspectives plus lots of brilliant anecdotes about Michael.

To me, the missed opportunity about “Grief” was that it wasn’t a 2-parter (if not a 5-parter). The scale of the concept is absolutely huge (Torchwood did a 10-part series about the idea of death being suspended). There’s just so much story in there. It also has the advantage that it’s the kind of global story that could have united the Manhattan and the World Tour gang in a single narrative. I would love to have seen Xanatos’ point of view on all this. Of course, S&P probably would have had to step in if this were to happen and it would have meant several fewer World Tour episodes.
Ed
posted @ Fri, Dec 20, 2024 1:55:43 pm EST from 145.224.66.6

CRAIG - The "get under his skin" expression was just a coincidence, that I hadn't realized until you'd pointed it out. It certainly feels appropriate now, though.

[SPOILER] A couple of other comments about the latest "Voices From the Eyrie" podcast.

1. I certainly don't think it was intentional, but the term "Demona Renaissance", used for the upcoming new Weisman/Paur mini-series, puts me in mind of the opening scene in "Hunter's Moon Part Two" where she's in late fifteenth century Florence. You've got to admit it's a literal fulfillment of that term.

2. I've seen the "Batman: TAS" episode "Avatar" that was mentioned in the podcast, with the remarks about how Michael Reaves incorporated into "Grief" things he'd wanted to include in that episode but which were jettisoned by the higher-ups. Even the version that made it to the screen reminded me a lot of "Grief" - the combination of the title, the Egyptian setting, and the "life and death at my command" element. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Dec 20, 2024 8:10:50 am EST from 68.99.93.213

"The Price" is another great episode, what I love is that while the clan battles it out over-and-over again with "Macbeth" Hudson and Xanatos have their own battle, one of wit and wills. And in the end it's the brilliant, innovative billionaire who blinks.

The irony of Xanatos using a Macbeth-bot in his immortality scheme is pretty clever. He might've replicated the guy's voice, tech and tactics but never once considers the man himself. Not once thinking about how a man who's been alive for centuries might tire of life; shows that while Xanatos may be a genius, he isn't as perceptive as he likes to think he is.

One thing this episode provided that not every show gets is a vulnerability from the seemingly untouchable mastermind. Hudson pushes Xanatos' buttons almost by accident and his response reveals more about the man than nearly every episode before it. He has practically everything he wants: wealth, affluence, power, love. Why shouldn't he live forever? And the end result of Hudson not only getting the best of him but also not engaging in petty revenge by not destroying the cauldron is basically throwing all of those points Xanatos prides himself for back at him.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Fri, Dec 20, 2024 5:49:42 am EST from 135.180.3.149

Another phenomenal Voices from the Eyrie podcast, about a phenomenal episode.

[SPOILER]
From the Quest #5 discussion: I was amused by Greg's confusion over people's renewed rage at Coldstone, given that his betrayal has been known for awhile. But I do think there is something distinctly new in "Queen of All She Surveys": participating in CHILD ABDUCTION is a step beyond anything that he'd been complicit in up to this point. Betraying the clan is thoroughly reprehensible but is sort of an abstract concept. Stealing an unborn child from its parents is something that feels all too real and viscerally deplorable (I'm not a parent myself, but I imagine for those who are, it has to feel even more relatable and terrifying).

Moving on to the main discussion of "Grief"...Brynne may be my favorite guest on this podcast. I'm biased because I'm a writing geek and I LOVE hearing about the TV writing process. But on top of that, Brynne is (and I hope she wouldn't mind this adjective) feisty. I love that she's open about not loving the World Tour because she prefers smaller character pieces. Listening to her and Greg spar over story points is just a sheer delight, and (as Bishansky alludes to near the end of the podcast) is probably as close as we'll ever get to being present for a Gargoyles story session. I also love the insights into her personal and professional relationships with Michael, which I think it's fair to say were both somewhat complicated (she candidly discusses how Michael would basically reduce her to a secretary/typist role when they "collaborated"). There are some great tidbits in here: she believes that she probably wrote the first draft of this episode based on Michael's story because he was in a time crunch, to give him the foundation to rewrite. And just some great personal tidbits, like Michael making sure that all three of their newborns saw King Kong as their first movie. There's something about the nerdy-bohemian L.A. culture of the '80s and '90s that Brynne and Michael and Diane Duane and Lydia Marano came up in that really resonates with me, and I love hearing Brynne talk about that time.

One thing that occurred to me in listening to Greg and Brynne hash out the famous "mistake" in "Grief." If Greg had gotten to do that beat, would the characters have remained completely uninjured physically? Death being paused doesn't mean that one can't be substantially wounded, after all. There's a very dark potential version of that scene where our heroes are critically hurt in very gory fashion but can't die, living forever in excruciating pain.
[/SPOILER]

As for Todd's latest "ramble" on "The Price," this may be my all-time favorite episode. Besides being a showcase for two of my absolute favorite characters and actors, it has some of the most beautiful animation ever on the show, AND some of the best dialogue ever by my favorite Gargoyles writer, Michael Reaves. And, of course, my man Owen gets his second-most memorable moment of the series, and arguably the most shocking episode ending EVER on the show. It probably says something about me as a person, but even at age eleven, mortality was something I thought about a lot, so this episode really spoke to me. I went back and rewatched this episode after Ed Asner passed, and again when Michael Reaves passed, and found it very moving both times. And, Todd, I'm not sure if it was intentional on your part, but I was very amused by your wording when you said Hudson can get under Xanatos's skin. :)
Craig
posted @ Thu, Dec 19, 2024 11:30:31 pm EST from 69.118.30.106

Just finished listening to the "Voices from the Eyrie" podcast on "Grief"; as ever, enjoyable. [SPOILER] And, not to my surprise, one of the things that they brought up was the missed opportunity part about "the Pack kill Goliath and the others, only to discover that, thanks to Anubis being imprisoned, nobody can die"; I just knew that they'd be talking about that at some point! That, and Tony Shalhoub's performance as the Emir, which I know Greg Weisman thinks really highly of. [/SPOILER]

And I rewatched "The Price" today. This is one of the really great episodes of "Gargoyles", and my favorite of the episodes between "City of Stone" and "Avalon". It has so many great things in it; some lovely animation of the gargoyles gliding about, a very ingenious Xanatos scheme, and some great character moments for Hudson, Xanatos, and Owen.

I think that the episode came up with a particularly good idea for Xanatos capturing Hudson. One potential drawback with Xanatos being one of the main antagonists for the gargoyles is connected to what makes him such a great antagonist. What would Xanatos do with the gargoyles if he caught them? It's clear by now that he can no longer force them to work for him (and his "make-your-own-gargoyle" schemes, such as the Steel Clan, the Mutates, and Thailog, clearly illustrate that). He's too level-headed to pursue the gargoyles for revenge, also. Of course, the series did solve this by increasingly having Xanatos's goal be something other than capturing the gargoyles, often simply using the gargoyles as tools in a more subtle way to accomplish his goals. But this episode provided him with the reason he needed to capture a gargoyle. The Cauldron of Life needs a piece of gargoyle stone skin to work. And Xanatos also recognizes that he needs to test it on something or someone to make certain there aren't any dark twists to its gift of immortality (as indeed there are) - so why not use the same gargoyle whom he'd already captured to get a piece of stone skin? Very practical.

But even better, it leads from there into some wonderful interactions between Hudson and Xanatos - and Hudson shows that he can get under Xanatos's skin very well - the only other person as good at that is Petros Xanatos. Hudson also shows that he's not quite so washed-up after all. (One really neat touch is how Hudson manages his escape. He was captured partly in order to provide Xanatos with that piece of stone skin for the Cauldron. He uses another piece of stone skin to achieve his freedom. I don't know if "irony" is the right word for it, but it certainly seemed very fitting - Xanatos himself notes it with reluctant admiration.)

(I've seen it speculated that this confrontation with them inspired Puck - who was watching the whole thing as Owen, remember - to give Xanatos and Hudson a fight to the death in "Future Tense", and I can certainly believe it.)

As an added touch: after Hudson makes his speech about the immortality really worth having is the legacy you leave behind you; after that, we see the clan gathered around what they think are Hudson's remains, all mourning for him, and all speak about what Hudson meant to them. I think it brought home that Hudson's definitely achieved that kind of legacy.

We also get some more fine Owen moments. One part that stood out to me this time was his remark about service being its own reward. His choice of word reminded me of how Demona said to Puck in "The Mirror", "You serve the human; you can serve me." I'm wondering now whether Owen's mention of "service" was intended, in part, as an echo of that line of Demona's, and in turn, a hint of the revelation to come....

After these big moments, the other elements seem comparatively minor, but I still think that the whole "make it look as if Hudson was trapped in stone sleep" worked especially well, because we know from "Awakening" that magic *can* be used to trap gargoyles in stone sleep. That made it easy to not only dupe Goliath and his clan, but also the audience (I know that I initially thought, the first time I saw this episode, that that's what happened there). Not to mention, when Macbeth seemingly returns from the dead, I thought when I first saw this episode "Of course; it's because only Demona can kill him" - and instead, it turned out that it was a lookalike robot! (But that explained what I'd been wondering about; why Macbeth should be pursuing the gargoyles for trophies. That sounded more like the sort of thing the Pack would do. I'd certainly gotten more fond of Macbeth after seeing "City of Stone", and though I could see him fighting the gargoyles, it would be for something more important than just having a gargoyle head to mount over the fireplace. And the robot revelation explained that in a very satisfactory fashion.)

Also on a smaller note, we get Elisa saving Broadway's life with her gun, in a reverse of "Deadly Force".

All in all, an excellent episode. (I remember watching it after Ed Asner passed on as a memorial to him; the moment I'd decided to watch a Hudson episode of "Gargoyles" for that purpose, it had to be "The Price".)

A LITTLE ABOUT THE CAULDRON OF LIFE: Magical cauldrons turn up often in Celtic mythology, with various unusual properties. (Some Arthurian scholars have even speculated that they helped give rise to the Holy Grail.) None precisely match the Cauldron of Life, but the one that comes the closest is the cauldron of Bran the Blessed in the Mabinogion. Bran the Blessed, an ancient British king (and a giant also, so big that he could wade across the Irish Sea from Britain to Ireland) gave the cauldron as a wedding present to the king of Ireland when the latter married his sister. It could bring the dead back to life when they were placed within it, except that the person restored to life could no longer speak. (Bran later on regretted that choice of wedding present when he and his new brother-in-law fell out and went to war, and the Irish could simply place all their fallen soldiers in the cauldron, restore them to life - their being now mute didn't prevent them from fighting well - and send them back against Bran's army.) The cauldron, by the way, was adapted by Lloyd Alexander in his "Chronicles of Prydain" into the Black Cauldron, making it all the clearer that the "restored" men were actually now undead - the Cauldron-Born, as it called them. (The Disney movie adaptation made them even creepier by making them animated skeletons.)


FAVORITE LINES.


LEXINGTON: Boy, the city sure is different when it snows.

BROOKLYN: Yeah, it's colder.


HUDSON: Not a bad life, all things considered.

{The Macbeth robot opens fire on the gargoyles.}

BROOKLYN: Yeah, too bad he wants to end it.


HUDSON: What do you want of me?

XANATOS: Nothing much, Hudson. Just your skin.

HUDSON: You'll have the Devil's own task getting it.

XANATOS: Really?

{He pulls out a remote device and pushes a button on it. Hudson's cage slides away, revealing the pieces of stone skin lying beneath it when he'd awakened. Xanatos picks one up, then pushes the button again to slide the rest of the pieces back under the cage.}

XANATOS: Gee, that wasn't as hard as you made it sound.


HUDSON: And what's in this for you?

OWEN: Service is its own reward. I would have thought you knew that.


HUDSON: Growing old terrifies you, doesn't it?

XANATOS (sharply): Nothing terrifies me, because nothing is beyond my ability to change. What about you? Still wasting your nights in front of a television set? You're of little use to your clan; you might as well be of some use to me.

HUDSON: Open this cage and I'll show you how useless I am.

{Xanatos turns and looks back at Hudson for a moment, as if to say "Nice try".}


BROADWAY: At least we led him away from Hudson.

BROOKLYN: Yeah, if only somebody would lead him away from us.


HUDSON: Listen to me, Xanatos. What you seek demands a heavy price.

{The Steel Clan robot hauls Hudson out of the now-deactivated cage and holds him tightly.}

HUDSON: I've been alive for over eleven hundred years. Most of my clan is dead and dust, and I am a stranger in a strange land. Demona and Macbeth are immortal. Has it brought them happiness?

XANATOS: Save your breath, Hudson. Death and old age have their price as well, and it's too expensive for me.


BROOKLYN (clinging to the edge of a building under the Macbeth robot's attack): Okay, this is getting old.


XANATOS (tossing Hudson's sword in the air and catching it): Relax, Hudson. Without your sword, you're helpless.

HUDSON: Swordless, maybe. Helpless, never!

{He drives his piece of stone skin into the Steel Clan, short-circuiting it, then bursts free, to knock Xanatos down. Owen rushes towards Hudson, who snatches up his sword and holds the Executive Assistant at bay.}

HUDSON: Behave yourself, boy.

XANATOS: I underestimated you. Very resourceful, using your own skin as a weapon. I suppose you'll destroy the Cauldron now.

HUDSON: And why would I be doing that? What you choose to do with your life is your own affair, as long as it's got nothing to do with me.

XANATOS: You're just full of surprises.

HUDSON: A friendly word of advice. True immortality isn't about living forever, man. It's about what you do with the time you have. When all your scheming is done, what will be your legacy, Xanatos?

{As Hudson walks off, Owen pulls out a device and starts pushing buttons, presumably to send more Steel Clan robots after Hudson or something like that. Xanatos signals him to stop.}

XANATOS: No, let him go. He's earned it.


GOLIATH (as the clan gathers around "Hudson"'s remains): Hudson was the greatest warrior I have ever known. His loss diminishes us all.

BROOKLYN: Yeah. Now I wish I'd... He was one in a million.

LEXINGTON: He's forgotten more things than we'll ever know.

{Hudson alights behind them. None of them see him.}

ELISA: He was always there for us.

BROADWAY: Sorry, Hudson. I wish it hadn't turned out this way.

HUDSON: All things considered, I'm just as glad it did.


HUDSON (picking up the stone fragment shaped like his face): I think I'll keep this as a souvenir. Not everyone can reclaim their head after losing it.


XANATOS: I was so close to finding out if the legend was true. Now there's no one to test it on.

OWEN: Allow me, sir.

{He rolls up his sleeve and dips his hand into the Cauldron's waters. His hand promptly turns to stone, which Owen strikes against the Cauldron's rim.}

OWEN: It would appear that the Cauldron's spell of immortality has a price.

XANATOS: Yes. What was the legend? "Whoever bathes in it will live as long as the mountain stones." How literal-minded. Thank you, Owen. That will be all.

{He walks off, while Owen stares silently at his stone hand.}
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Dec 19, 2024 9:52:40 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

It occurred to me that none of the heroes knew about Sevarius' survival until "Double Jeopardy" or rather that they never knew about the faked death to begin with. Deception is a big part of "The Cage", the lies of omission that Elisa and Goliath are forced to keep, the transformation Talon hides from the rest of the family, and of course the tangled web Xanatos and Sevarius engage in. Heck, even the episode gets in on this by purposefully hiding exactly who is holding the not-so-good doctor captive.

It's this same kind of tangled web that was such an integral part of Young Justice's third season and concluded with the importance of truth over lies. We have something similar here with Brooklyn showing some good intuition towards the mutates; he knows that they're good people and not fools, so Xanatos can't keep the truth from them forever. The conclusion with Talon being accepted by his family (which got me a bit choked up when I first saw it) really shows the message of it. Lies and deception are a cage but the truth will set you free.

On a side note, I've always believed that while Goliath may not believe in killing in cold blood, I'm pretty sure he would've killed Sevarius if the cure wasn't what it was. It's one of his darker moments and while he always remains a hero it's a good reminder that he's not infallible and not immune to darker impulses.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Thu, Dec 19, 2024 4:14:28 pm EST from 135.180.3.149

Still need to pick up my hard copies of the Winter Special (and Quest #5, though the comic shop said they were finally in last weekend). Needless to say, it's been quite busy, but that's usually what this time of year is like. Anyways, some quick thoughts on the Winter Special!

[SPOILER] Bronx leaping down the last (at least?) five stories is such a fun shot.

Ed: Don't forget those lampposts are tougher than they appear -- remember, they just took out Binzy a month ago!

I love the shot of all Central Park blanketed in snow. At the same time, I'm VERY much reminded how I have no inclination to visit New York in the winter. No waiting for the ball to drop in Times Square for me, no thank you -- even with peak layers I would be frozen, lol.

Speaking of frozen, I love how Kambadais and Jordan demonstrated the pond over the bridge is iced up.

Todd: Yep, that's Belvedere Castle. It's an obvious choice for Bronx to get his bearings, given its history in the show, but I'm still delighted to see the landmark on the comic page. Pretty sure its the first time it's been seen (or mentioned) since the "Avalon" three-parter. It was also one of the many sights I went to see when I visited New York this past summer, a good month before CONvergence, but in full spirit of the 30th Anniversary. It was there that I stocked up on souvenirs (postcards and tokens of Belvedere) which became my "you found me" trinket in lieu of the more standard ribbons attendees hand out at the convention.

(I also visited the Alice in Wonderland statue and Cleopatra's Needle while there. *sigh* I really do need to post those conjournals. . .)

As Matt mentioned, I too, would have enjoyed a cameo from Rover. I personally like to think that, after the commandoes found the tracker on the dog in "Awakening: Part Four", tough-guy Bruno took him in d:

Gotta wonder about the casual employees working at the Eyrie Building. Seeing a couple of gargoyle beasts going up and down the building on a semi-regular basis has to be quite the sight, lol. Makes me wonder if any of the floors are leased out to other businesses, making them even more civilian in nature. Glad the snow doesn't make the traction any more difficult for the vertical climb, but as others mentioned, the concrete and metal parts of the skyscraper are no doubt scoured with claw marks.

I love that Fu-Dog is the only one inquisitive about Bronx's whereabouts. And yes, as Craig mentioned, Eckleberry gets to cut loose with not only effective, but prescious sound effects. Hoping to see more for Bronx, Fu-Dog, Cagney, and and any other non-speaking characters in future issues. [/SPOILER]

Here's to more comic specials! I'm not opposed to more Halloween and Winter themed ones, but calendar-wise, a Midsummer Special also seems like a good fit. :--)
Phoenician
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."
posted @ Thu, Dec 19, 2024 11:21:57 am EST from 72.216.220.229

One more comment on the Winter Special.

[SPOILER] As I mentioned, I was surprised at first that the missing family member whom Bronx found was a cat. But then I noticed that the Forstner cover (the one that I ordered) did reveal that, with its picture of Bronx and the cats. I hadn't seriously thought that this might reflect the contents, since the similar covers for "Here in Manhattan" (the gargoyles befriending dogs - except for Hudson, who befriended a couple of cats instead) had all been entirely the artists' imagination, without any links to the story within each issue. This time, however, it did - and it was definitely a treat. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Dec 19, 2024 7:33:50 am EST from 68.99.93.213

[SPOILER]
BTW, it is a common phenomenon for cats to hide or run away from home when they're about to give birth, due to their innate protective instinct and wanting to find an isolated place to birth their vulnerable newborns.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Wed, Dec 18, 2024 11:37:40 pm EST from 69.118.30.106

Todd > Ha, I appreciate the Pinky & the Brain reference. Realistically though, Owen probably explains his stone hand as an eccentric prosthetic that he chose for personal reasons. And most people probably already thought he was kind of weird to begin with, so they just accept it.
Craig
posted @ Wed, Dec 18, 2024 7:50:03 pm EST from 69.118.30.106

CRAIG - [SPOILER] I can't see Cagney getting out of Elisa's apartment either (apart from that stay at the clock tower during the Avalon World Tour, of course); from my own experience, I can say that apartment life is a surefire way to make your cat strictly indoors.

And, yes, I can imagine Owen seeing the claw-damage from Bronx and Fu-Dog just one more problem with the gargoyles (alongside his disapproval of those fights causing so much damage to the castle). He probably also has to dodge questions about that stone hand after "The Price", for that matter - I've occasionally imagined him saying, in a half-sarcastic, half-fed-up tone, that it was due to an accident involving a microwave oven and a non-dairy powdered creamer. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Dec 18, 2024 7:45:26 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

[SPOILER]
Matt >

I'd assume that Cagney is an indoor cat. Most cats in NYC are (other than strays); it's just not a safe or practical environment to let your cat roam freely. Even if Cagney were outside, getting from Elisa's SoHo loft to the Central Park area would be QUITE a hike.

I don't see three kittens in any panels, although I think I can see where you might see that (if that makes sense). I think it's just the way George drew certain shots of the two huddled together, with their bodies entwined, that can cause it to look like there's someone else there.

Todd >

One thing I thought about, which amused me, is how often Owen must have to call in repairmen to fix the structural damage to the Eyrie Building from Bronx and Fu-Dog constantly climbing up and down. And how annoying it must be for him to dodge their questions (albeit possibly a little easier now that the existence of gargoyles is known to the public). Just one more thing for long-suffering Owen to deal with.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Wed, Dec 18, 2024 7:31:45 pm EST from 69.118.30.106

My thoughts on the Winter Special.

[SPOILER] I got a really big surprise in this one - though one that I also really enjoyed. I had thought that the missing "family member" whom Bronx would find and reunite with their loved ones was the dog he befriended (and whom, we know, Nate Cosby based on an actual dog he was acquainted with). Instead, the missing "family member" is a cat. Being a cat-lover, I enjoyed seeing Bronx and his new dog friend find her and reunite her (along with her kittens) with her human; it was definitely a heart-warming event.

A few other moments that stood out to me:

1. Bronx actually climbs down the Eyrie Building - or at least, most of it. A very impressive feat.

2. He and the dog visit the "Alice in Wonderland" statues we saw earlier in "Awakening Part Four". Was the building they visited after that Belvedere Castle, or a different Central Park landmark?

Certainly a historic issue: the one story with no dialogue (unless you count animal noises) - also, no antagonists or fights, just Bronx romping about in the snow and rescuing a family of cats (indicating that gargoyles - or in this case, gargoyle beasts - can protect without any fighting). And it's definitely a heartwarming one. [/SPOILER]

I also rewatched "The Cage". A much more conventional "Gargoyles" story, of course, though it also includes feline characters (very different from the ones in Bronx's adventure, of course), and a heartwarming ending. In fact, this is the first episode featuring the Mutates that concludes in an upbeat manner. "Her Brother's Keeper" ended on a foreboding note; "Metamorphosis" was downright sad and devastating. But "The Cage" ends with Derek being reunited with his family, who, after a momentary shock at how he's changed, warmly embrace him, and welcome Maggie (and Fang and Claw, too) into the family, while Goliath watches with a smile.

Of course, to get to that moment, we have some dark moments - including Talon being by now more focused on revenge than on a cure for his Mutate state, and the big shock of Goliath being the one who'd kidnapped Sevarius. Not to mention Xanatos in one of his most casually chilling moments.

We see Talon and Maggie's new character designs (though "Upgrade" spoiled us on Talon's design), and also have Fang and Claw established; both get names, and some indication of their characterization. Fang's shown as something of a loudmouthed bully - we'll see more of that in "Kingdom" and "The Reckoning", not to mention "Bad Guys". The main thing we learn about Claw is that he's always silent. We aren't told whether in his case, his transformation into a Mutate did something to his vocal chords making him unable to speak, or whether he still has the physical ability to do so, but doesn't because of the trauma from his change. (I prefer to think it's the latter; that provides the foundations of characterization for him.)

One weak point: we get more "padding out" flashbacks, as in "Outfoxed". But there are some strong points to counterbalance it.

I spotted an architectural gargoyle in the opening shot outside Elisa's home. (I once tried keeping track of how many of them appeared in the series, but wound up abandoning it.)

The "duck imitation" moment at the Maza family dinner seems like a little nod to "Duck Tales" and "Darkwing Duck" (possibly "Quack Pack", too, but that wasn't out yet).

FAVORITE LINES.


FANG: Come back here and fight like a man!

BROOKLYN: I'm not a man! I'm a gargoyle!


SEVARIUS: I'm not used to working in such primitive conditions.

GOLIATH: Just get back to work, before conditions really do become primitive.


SEVARIUS: I really dislike working with someone looking over my shoulder. {He notices the just-arrived Elisa.} Oh, wonderful. Now there's two of you.


ELISA: Look, I know your heart was in the right place. But even if it works, the end can't justify the means. That's the way Xanatos behaves, not you.


XANATOS: I am sorry things turned out this way. We'd all be happier if you'd remained in the dark, but I can't let you damage Anton. He's a bit of a bother, but his mind represents infinite possibilities. He's the scientist; you're just the experiment.

{Goliath groans.}

XANATOS: Oh, hello, Goliath. Almost didn't notice you there.


SEVARIUS: You know, that could be a vial of poison. Of course, there's only one way to find out.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Dec 18, 2024 7:08:44 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

[SPOILER] I know the two kittens are named after Greg's cats (I recall those names from some old episode ramble or something else in the archive), but am I the only one who is seeing three baby kittens in multiple shots? More than once, it looks clear to me that there are at least three in the pile.

Also, Bishansky, Phoenician, and I were discussing that a cameo by Rover and/or Cagney would've been fun. And perhaps Cagney would be revealed as the kittens father! A thought I had was that it'd be interesting and hilarious if General Bones had made an appearance (perhaps he has survived the centuries by mistaking the Holy Grail for a water bowl...) Talk about a twist! [/SPOILER]
Matt
"Human problems become gargoyle problems..."
posted @ Wed, Dec 18, 2024 6:51:18 pm EST from 47.233.90.133

Another stray thought on the Winter Special:

[SPOILER]
It strikes me as appropriate, given the subject matter of the story, that the Alice statue features both Alice's cat Dinah, and the Cheshire Cat (the latter of whom can't be seen in the "Awakening" appearance of the statue, but is seen here in the Winter Special).

Also, I should have known the GargWiki editors would be on their game. I see that we already have names for everyone in the story, including even the two kittens! The backstories for the kittens' names are amusing.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Wed, Dec 18, 2024 3:34:19 pm EST from 69.118.30.106

My thoughts on the Winter Special:

[SPOILER] - The opening page was cute. Kind of makes me think that this chapter is entitled simply "Bronx". I prefer "Bronx's Silent Night" better, but that only showed up in the teaser.

- I like the way the passage of time is shown in NYC. The light gets darker, the snow starts falling, foot and car traffic quiets and disappears. Really cool. The whole thing actually reminds me of an episode of Sex and the City where a big snow falls and Carrie talks about how the city, for once, is still and quiet.

- Up at the Castle, the Clan wakes up. They look fantastic. Great to see Kambadais's art again. He really has a knack for drawing a lot of these characters. I especially like how he draws Goliath, Broadway, Lex. Good to have him back if only for this one chapter.

- I've got to talk about the elephant in the room: the snowball fight. When I saw the preview pages, my first reaction was that it was all a bit jarring and callous. The last we saw the clan, Egwardo had been stolen. That is devastating and the clan was heartbroken, of course. And so were we, the readers. To open the next chapter with a playful snowball fight feels off. I kept thinking that if someone had died, like Hudson, I can see them bouncing back with a lighthearted moment a few days or weeks later, no problem. Life goes on. But this isn't a death. This is essentially the kidnapping of a child. This isn't something a family can easily move on from. So, the playfulness and smiles here feel really off. Having read the whole thing and given it some thought, I've found some peace with it for two reasons. One, this is a family that is suffering a terrible loss. Having a few moments of fun is one way to be supportive of each other. To show love and encouragement. Secondly, it only last a minute or two and then they all seem to get serious and head off on patrol. I like to think that they have spent every night ceaselessly searching for Demona and Egwardo. So, I'm okay with the scene now. A moment of fun camaraderie before getting back to the task at hand.

- Hudson watching Celebrity Hockey with Fu-Dog is fun. Fu is filling Bronx's role at Hudson's side which is nice. Katana has joined the patrol, but did not engage in the snowball fight which is noteworthy. And Coldfire is notably absent from this tale.

- But let's get to our main character here. Bronx decides to head off on his own for the night. I wonder how often he's done this. We have a notion that he might've done this during Vendettas/Turf. And he and Fu-Dog headed out on their own during Quest. I just like the idea that beasts in a clan are more than pets. They have wills of their own and can come and go as they please.

- Bronx making his way down the Eyrie seems tedious. I wonder if he and Fu-Dog get tired of making that climb down and back up again! The scaling looks a bit of here as Bronx kind of seems to be 20 feet long or so. Once on the ground, the playing in the snow is fun. Kambadais does a great job of showing the movement and fun of being out in the snow throughout this chapter. I also like Bronx's moment of perching atop a streetlight.

- Bronx makes a friend in Lance (a name we only know of through Nate Cosby). Bishansky mentioned to me this morning that he'd heard someone say that a Rover (from Awakening) cameo would've been fun. But Lance works. And hopefully in the three years since Awakening, I hope Rover has found his way off of the streets.

- We "meet" our only human character and she appears to be searching for her cat in the snowstorm. A ball of yarn conveniently falls from her pet carrier and Bronx and Lance are able to get a good scent from it. Time for Bronx to use one of his superpowers: his incredible ability to track smells. They follow the trail into Central Park. I love the super wide shot of the Park covered in snow. Very cool looking. I also really like that we get to see Bronx concentrating on the smell of yarn and then moving through the park like a snowplow. After moving past a few familiar Central Park landmarks (and Bronx tossing Lance on to his back!), they finally find the lost cat. And (surprise!), the cat has had kittens! Poor timing on the cat's part. I'm amazed the kittens have survived. good thing Bronx came to their rescue.

- Everyone gets on Bronx's back. This reminds me a lot of a scene in the Bone comics where all the baby woodland critters are riding around on Bartleby's back. Cute. And Bronx snowplows his way back to the cat's owner who is thrilled to be reunited with her pet and more. She seems to leave with lance as well, so I guess he is hers too. Anyway, Bronx is pleased.

- The Hound of Ulster has found another heroic deed to do and makes his way home as dawn approaches. Fu-Dog greets him and seems to questions Bronx's whereabouts and gets his answer more or less from Bronx. I like the relationship that we've seen grow between these two beasts. They seem like, I dunno, not brotherly, but maybe something like teammates or something. I dunno. Meanwhile, the gargoyles have returned and greet Bronx happily before all go back to sleep.

- This was a very simple and low stakes adventure for Gargoyles and definitely comes across as a lighter palette cleanser after the world-ending stakes and heart-breaking ending to Quest. I loved that we finally got a chapter with no dialogue. I envisioned something like this during the Here In Manhattan arc where I wondered if Bronx would get a POV chapter where we only hear the words he understands and get his sense of smells and tone coming through. So, this was very fun to see. The art is awesome, of course, and I'm glad we finally got another Bronx focused "episode". It says a lot that this comic has had a long enough run that a chapter like this is even feasible and a good use of time. Grateful to have this! [/SPOILER]

Now, we have about 136 days to go until Demona #0! And thus, given no choice, we waited. Never The End!
Matt
"Human problems become gargoyle problems..."
posted @ Wed, Dec 18, 2024 12:12:15 pm EST from 47.233.90.133

[SPOILER]
A lovely light hearted story, no dialogue with Bronx leaving the castle and befriends a bull terrier and they both help a lady who's looking for her cat in the thick snow and turns out they they find the cat who's had kittens and it is reunited with it's owner.

We do see the clan, (no Coldfire and Elisa though) they are in high spirits, Brooklyn starts a snowballs fight and then they leave to go on patrol including Gnash. I assume they got the egg back from Demona. But Fu Dog is with Hudson who's watching TV, so maybe not.

Is it just me or does it look like Brooklyn is missing an arm in some panels, could be just at a awkward angle. [/SPOILER]

With no new story in January and February, I assume we have to wait till May for the FCBD Demona issue. Or hopefully there might be something in March or April.
VickyUK
posted @ Wed, Dec 18, 2024 10:09:39 am EST from 86.158.221.45

From a recent podcast Greg and Nate did, it sounds like the idea for the Winter Special did indeed come from Nate, and not something that Greg had planned back in the day. But I also note that Nate did post a screenshot from The Goliath Chronicles's "Bronx Tail" on his Instagram back in August lol. I'm assuming he was mostly being a troll-slash-goofball. But it's also possible that he saw that episode and said, "We can do better."
Craig
posted @ Wed, Dec 18, 2024 4:37:42 am EST from 69.118.30.106

[SPOILER] Years ago we did a "Twelve Days of Christmas" countdown during the holiday season, I remember because I kicked things off with the line "On the First Day of Christmas the Weisman gave to me, A Garg Beast perched on a tree."

Seeing Bronx chilling atop a street light catching snowflakes it doesn't seem so silly anymore.

I have to agree that it does seem odd to have Brooklyn engage in some winter frolicking right after his child is egg-napped. I doubt that any future story involving the recovery will be handled so quickly, that seems like the kind of thing that wouldn't be rushed. If it is resolved in-between Thanksgiving and whenever this is supposed to take place I'll be surprised.

However, it is a nice, fuzzy feeling kind of story. The decision to not use any dialogue and let the story be told through expressions and actions reminds me a bit of Momo's section in the Avatar episode, "Tales of Ba Sing Se." Bronx doesn't get much spotlight in the comics so this was a nice showing of the good boi. It's pretty sweet knowing Bronx is as big-hearted as the rest of the clan. [/SPOILER]

Not much else to say here. Looking forward to what comes next.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Wed, Dec 18, 2024 3:39:19 am EST from 135.180.3.149

Winter Special

[SPOILER]
That was just really fun, heartwarming, and cute. As a dog and cat (and gargoyle beast) lover, I was smiling the whole time. The art nicely captures the mood of a blizzard in Manhattan...one of the few times the city actually becomes...quiet. Slow. Serene. I love the first page of the traffic thinning out, a perfect encapsulation of that mood.

Interesting decision not to have a title (unless it was an oversight). It will feel sort of odd just calling the story "Winter Special," or "Bronx." But I can understand if Nate Cosby just felt fully committed to the bit of not having any actual words appear in the story, even in title form.

Shout-out to Kambadais, for making Bronx so expressive, with some great physical acting. But also a shout-out to Jeff Eckleberry, who I don't typically mention except when something goes wrong. Lettering seems like a somewhat thankless gig; aside from instances where the lettering is deliberately meant to call attention to itself, the letter's job is generally not something I notice unless they do something wrong. (Others on here have been better about praising Eckleberry periodically.) But his work is really on fine display here, rendering all of Nate Cosby's imaginative little animal noises and other sound effects in equally imaginative styles, echoing the onomatopoeia in visual form. And I just love Nate's decision not to use typical sound effects like "bark," but to go with more specific ones like "gark" (as well as "PUNF," "POOMPH," "grawnch," etc.). All the SFX were well-chosen and really evoke immediate sounds you can hear clearly in your head.

I do slightly question the decision to set the story so soon after Quest, when it could easily have been set in an earlier winter. Brooklyn playfully having a snowball fight with his brothers is adorable, but doesn't feel like a man whose child has just been kidnapped. Also, interesting that we don't see Coldfire at all. Wonder if there's any significance to that, or it just was too many characters to squeeze in. But the story does go out of its way to show everyone else.

I assume that's Celebrity Hockey Hudson is watching.

Love the scene of Bronx frolicking playfully, and how effortlessly he can leap up and down buildings. You really get a sense of his strength and agility. Agree with Ed that balancing on the lamppost feels unlikely though.

Fun to see a couple of familiar Central Park landmarks again.

Cool to see the stone sleep actually "creeping up" on Bronx and Brooklyn in the penultimate panel, the way it did on the TV show. Have we seen that effect done in any of the comics before? I can't remember offhand. Also love Bronx's little proud smile in the final panel.

BTW, Nate shared on Instagram a few weeks ago that the bull terrier in the comic is based on a dog he sees around his neighborhood named Lance. He got permission from the owner to use him, and she was very emotional seeing her good boy drawn into a comic book for all the world. (The comic's version is apparently named Lance as well, for you GargWiki editors.)

Overall, a great little Christmas present from Messrs. Weisman and Cosby to round out the year. I don't have as much to say as I usually do, for obvious reasons, but I just really loved the heck out of this story.

Although I won't have the physical copies for another few days, I'm assuming this will be the first Dynamite issue not to have a preview for any upcoming new Gargoyles book, which is a real bummer. But at least we know we'll have the Free Comic Book Day issue in a few months.
[/SPOILER]

As for "Protection," it's not a particular favorite of mine, and I don't have a lot to say on it that hasn't been said. It always bugged me that Broadway uses the "jalapeña" expletive BEFORE Goliath introduces it into the lexicon, which seems to undermine the entire purpose of the ending gag. Always just found that weird. The brand of jalapeños in the episode, incidentally, is "ALA JALA PINO," per the jar label.
Craig
posted @ Wed, Dec 18, 2024 1:21:05 am EST from 69.118.30.106

A little bit of history, back in the day when city neighborhoods were still heavily segregated by nationality or ethnicity many gangs (comprised of locals of the neighborhoods) would indeed act as the protection of that area due to police rarely visiting unless it was to bust heads or extort locals. As is so often the case these gangs would later become extortionists themselves.

"Protection" is another smaller scale story but I like it all the same. I remember first wondering why a police captain would be taking part in a multi-part sting operation but in retrospect it does make sense. If Elisa is to play the role of a dirty cop and if her partner and superior are there to help sell it, it would make sense to have them on both sides of the racket, cops involved in taking them down but also disguised as would-be victims. There's also the possibility that Dracon's syndicate would have inside information as well (like many real life criminals), so keeping this plan to a few trusted individuals, including herself, would be sensible.

Another part I like is Broadway and Goliath's role in this. Neither are unintelligent but Goliath is a little more direct that makes deception a hard sell and Broadway can be a bit of goof, especially when food's involved. But Broadway is also a quick study when it comes to crimes and detective work plus there's the fact that Tony may know how cops work but he doesn't know how gargoyles work. Broadway helps sell the illusion while Goliath uses his usual direct approach assisting Elisa with her cover.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Wed, Dec 18, 2024 12:35:58 am EST from 135.180.3.149

I was astonished to see Ed's review of the Winter Special up already, but then I remembered the different time zone for England.

And I really should have included Tony's "she's your woman" remark to Goliath in the "Favorite Lines" section of my review of "Protection". Well, too late for that now.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Dec 17, 2024 8:27:26 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

WINTER SPECIAL

[SPOILER] Before even page one, the classic narrative is torn apart. “But today’s tale…”. Very cool. And I guess that means the story is simply called “Bronx”.

Oh man, it’s great having George Kambadais back. Amazing iconic images.

Kind of intriguing that we do have a good chunk of time with gargoyles and people but no dialogue. I also like the Owly style non-verbal thought bubbles. And the question mark at the end suggests Fu-Dog and Bronx can question each other (and we’ve seen Bronx be questioning before I think).

Looks like Brooklyn throws the first snowball - 40 years hasn’t dulled his sense of mischief.

Bronx climbing down the Eyrie building is rad. Not quite sure about him balancing on the streetligjht - surely he’d bend it?

A fun story and given how tightly-wound Greg’s writing generally is I like it when there’s time to decompress a bit.

May have more to say when I can pick up the physical. Oddly I don't think this suits digital reading as well as I think it will suit the real thing.

I’ll be fascinated to hear the origin of this. While I understand it was Nate’s pitch it does feel like if someone took the same tiny germ of a story as “A Bronx Tail” (Bronx alone in the snow) but gave it better characters and, let’s be honest, sharper dialogue.

Great to round out the year with three issues in relatively quick succession. Kind of painful we now have to wait six months (though the Kickstarter should break it up hopefully). Let’s hope Dynamite can figure out how to get back to the kind of momentum we saw for most of 2023. [/SPOILER]
Ed
posted @ Tue, Dec 17, 2024 7:37:59 pm EST from 86.133.34.33

I've seen the preview pages of the Winter Special [SPOILER] and from them, the story's evidently being set after "Gargoyles Quest" after all. I'm now curious about why it is that Bronx isn't accompanied by Fu-Dog on this adventure, since so far in the Dynamite comics, they've been doing practically everything together. [/SPOILER]

Rewatched "Protection" today. The part that I always found the most memorable in it was Goliath's absolute disgust at an extortion racket being called "protection", and given how important "gargoyles protect" is to him, I can see his viewing such a use of the word as like blasphemy. I can certainly see from it why, when the production team came up with a "gargoyles vs. mundane organized crime" episode, a protection racket was the specific piece of organized crime they'd be battling.

Goliath and Broadway's responses to the picture before them of Elisa having apparently gone "corrupt cop" tie in with their respective mind-sets. Goliath, still fairly old-fashioned and with something of a medieval warrior-hero's mind-set, thinks that Elisa's under a spell - literally. (His suspecting that seems all the more natural given that he was subjected to one back in "Temptation". And his belief that that's what it is [SPOILER] takes on a darker, almost premonition-ish feeling, after the conclusion of "Gargoyles Quest" [/SPOILER]. Broadway, more up on modern crime-fighting (if mostly from watching "detective noir"-type movies, from the evidence), figures out correctly that she's just pretending in order to dupe Tony Dracon.

Actually, the basic concept of the protection racket (though not under that name) might have seemed familiar to Goliath. At the time of the Wyvern Massacre, England was facing its own problems with Vikings, and its then-king, Ethelred the Unready, tried solving the problem by offering them money (called Danegeld) if they'd go away and leave England alone. Not quite the same as the Dracon protection scheme (for a start, Ethelred seems to have initiated the idea), but still indicating that there was an analogy to it in Goliath's original time.

The opening scene, with the man hailing the taxi, is clearly recycled from "Awakening Part Four".

This might be over-emphasizing an obvious character trait of Broadway's, but I can't help wondering if he's feeling particularly upset about Tony's attacks on the businesses that wouldn't pay protection money because the particular business that got blown up was a restaurant.

One neat little touch in the "staged conversation" for Pal Joey's benefit: Chavez comments about how Elisa's been acting strange lately. That remark certainly helps keep the audience wondering whether this is a genuine confrontation - Chavez would have good reason to say that, with Elisa keeping that secret in the clock tower (a secret that she's not due to reveal to Chavez until "Here in Manhattan").

Every time I see this episode, I can't help feeling a bit sorry for Dave, and hope they made it up to him for the damage to his overhead lights afterwards.

The waiting room in Tony's suite at the hotel has a painting which apparently - from the glimpses I got of it - displays some sort of medieval or mythical battle.

Elisa's "I hate it when you call me sugar" moment to Tony feels particularly apt, given the "stop calling me Angie" business in the next episode that'll feature him. (And Tony really should have been better-prepared for Elisa disliking such nicknames and making that clear, from his sister.... That's one of the advantages of rewatching these episodes after new stories have come out, courtesy of Dynamite; it gives new takes on certain familiar scenes.)

We get a nice touch about Mr. Jaffe (whom we already knew from "Re-Awakening" was on close terms with Matt) being familiar with Matt from his boyhood (including the "tilting at windmills" line; Matt's pursuit of the Illuminati *does* have a quixotic feel). And I got a smile at the disapproving look Jaffe gave Matt after their meeting with Glasses.

Incidentally, when Glasses, talking about all the potential trouble-makers who could show up to attack Jaffe's grocery store, included "Vandals" on the list, I couldn't help wondering whether Goliath, if he'd been present, might have briefly gotten the wrong idea and think that Glasses was talking about the barbarian people that sacked Rome over five centuries before Goliath's old life in Castle Wyvern (though, even by the tenth century, Vandals had become ancient history).

On Tony's "your woman" comment - it reminds me again of Greg Weisman's remark that practically everyone noticed Goliath and Elisa having feelings for each other. (It's a fun scene, particularly when he pats Goliath on the shoulder and then has to withdraw his hand in a hurry....)

And Tony and his men keep facing one encounter with the gargoyles after another throughout this episode, with such additional touches as their utter astonishment when Elisa tells Goliath and Broadway to leave them alone - and they do just that, the "They're everywhere!" cry from Pal Joey when he and Glasses walk into Tony's hotel room only to find the gargoyles there, and, to top it, Pal Joey's alarmed response when Tony tells him to take Goliath and Broadway with him when he carries out his attack on the dry cleaner's. Another really funny element of the episode.

Broadway utters the "Jalapena!" cry (one of the most infamous moments of the episode) during the attempt to blow up the dry cleaner's, before Goliath's encounter with those peppers provoked the expression among the gargoyles.

Not one of the deepest episodes in the series, but it has some enjoyable moments, all the same.


FAVORITE LINES.

GLASSES: The latest information says it's a crooked cop.

TONY DRACON: And he didn't come to me first? Nobody remembers their manners.



GOLIATH: What is this "protection racket"?

BROADWAY: Criminals extort money from innocent people by threatening to damage their stores if they don't pay. Saw it in a movie once.

GOLIATH (outraged): And they call this "protection"?


ELISA: Let's drop the act, Tony. I'm moving in on your operation. You can't be too happy about that.

TONY: Actually, I hate it, sugar.

ELISA: And I hate it when you call me "sugar".


ELISA: They don't care about money or power.

{Goliath and Broadway make their entrance.}

BROADWAY: I don't know, Elisa.

GOLIATH: Money and power sound very... appealing.


PAL JOEY: You - uh - want to ride with me?

GOLIATH: We provide our own transportation.


BROADWAY: Didn't even wait for us. Why are bad guys always in such a hurry?


GOLIATH: I still don't understand how Dracon could ever believe that you would turn to a life of crime.

ELISA: I guess the corrupt are the first to believe that somebody else can be corrupted. And it's not impossible. None of us are perfect. That's why we need protection, even from ourselves, sometimes.

GOLIATH: Then I will protect you, you will protect me, and together, we will protect this city.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Dec 17, 2024 7:27:37 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

Todd> I also watched Gargoyles on KPLR Channel 11 back in the day, of course.

Winter Special drops tonight! Enjoy it because we are in for a bit of a wait until the next chapter. May 3rd, probably.
Matt
"Human problems become gargoyle problems..."
posted @ Tue, Dec 17, 2024 8:29:47 am EST from 204.184.178.1

MATTHEW - Thanks for your comments on "Upgrade". The part about "the dangers of stagnancy" particularly stood out to me; given that Greg Weisman's animated series haven't been afraid to make changes in their set-ups, I'd say it's certainly appropriate. And that is a good point; the Pack change on the outside in this one, but (except for Dingo, a point you also made) don't change on the inside.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Dec 17, 2024 8:00:38 am EST from 68.99.93.213

One other thing I can say in terms of retakes is that the "Vows" ending still was not corrected the second time it aired (which was on November 7, 1995, the day after "Double Jeopardy" premiered). I know this because I missed "Vows" the first time it aired because of a brownout (the only episode I ever missed on its first run), and the version I saw still had the incorrect ending.
Craig
posted @ Tue, Dec 17, 2024 4:51:40 am EST from 69.118.30.106

One thing that's consistent with Greg's writing is that the villains, much like the heroes, operate under an "evolve or die" principle. In YJ, the Light not only constantly adapt their plans when dealing with the heroes or with their own "allies" they also experiment with science and magic to prevent stagnation. In Spectacular, Doc Ock and the Sinister Six change up their tactics in every encounter with the web-head and Green Goblin pulls out new tricks and traps every time he battles Spider-Man. And here in "Upgrade" our favorite team of mercenaries decide it's time to do the same.

This was the right call all things considered, the Pack are certainly dangerous but just two of the clan were able to take them down in their debut. Even the addition of Coyote didn't help them that much when they clashed again, this time against the whole clan. They were skilled and certainly well armed, but the fact remained that it didn't matter when the gargoyles could not only outmuscle the muscle of the team and they could outthink them too. The upgrades finally allow them to actually match their foes in hand-to-hand combat but they're still outfought. And that brings up another point of Greg's writing, the dangers of stagnancy. Pre-transformation Wolf was a vicious brute, Jackal a sociopath, and Hyena a psychopath. Post-transformation Wolf is still a vicious brute, Jackal a sociopath, and Hyena a psychopath. The only one who's changed where it matters is Dingo as he's the only one who remembers to escape with the money in the beginning, the only one who's chafing under this cliched villain act they're going through, and the only one unnerved by his teammates willingness to throw away their humanity. But that's a topic for later.

The subplot about deciding a new second-in-command is a bit fascinating (even if the Disney Adventures magazine spoiled it). Choosing leaders can be an interesting bit of storytelling in fiction but far rarer is the choosing of a secondary leader. We've seen through the series that Hudson doesn't do much second-in-commanding since awakening in the present, more mentorship for the younger members, so a new second is sensible. Goliath mentioning that while he already had a choice in mind he didn't want to drive a wedge between friends brings to mind the episode "Drop Zone" where the Team trying to determine their own leader nearly drives a wedge between them. One detail that isn't brought up much is that Brooklyn uses the same tactics that brought down the Pack last time, divide and conquer.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Tue, Dec 17, 2024 2:29:31 am EST from 135.180.3.149

The mention of it being no Channel 11 brought back memories for me; i first watched "Gargoyles" (during its Disney Afternoon days) on Channel 11 as well, though in this case, it was Channel 11 in St. Louis (KPLR-TV). Talk about a coincidence!
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Dec 16, 2024 10:44:15 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

Ha! I do remember that, although I hadn't thought about it for decades. Fantastic to hear it again, thanks.
Craig
posted @ Mon, Dec 16, 2024 10:41:29 pm EST from 69.118.30.106

CRAIG> I also watched the show on WPIX Channel 11... and I don't recall that. Not saying it didn't happen, you had it on tape and I wasn't able to take the show until the 1996 fall season (when all the retakes were in). But that's fascinating.

Speaking of WPIX Channel 11, by any chance do you remember this? https://youtu.be/MPAnjUZRhl4?si=Dk12CNv_4fUWSYgi
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Mon, Dec 16, 2024 10:27:56 pm EST from 67.189.200.184

One specific thing I remember about "Upgrade" is that during the initial airing on WPIX-11 in NY, the first act cut out early. It faded to commercial right after Dingo hits Goliath with whatever he shoots out of his hand ("concussion blast," according to GargWiki). This meant that a full minute of the episode didn't air initially. And hence, the beginning of the next act (where Jackal has defeated Bronx and Wolf has defeated Hudson) came out of nowhere and was very confusing. I taped the episodes on VHS, so I watched this truncated version a few times before it finally reran in its full form. I wonder if anyone else in NY remembers this, or if anyone from other areas also experienced this? I always wondered if it was a case of animation not being ready in time, or if it was just a flub by the local affiliate.
Craig
posted @ Mon, Dec 16, 2024 9:37:50 pm EST from 69.118.30.106

CRAIG - Thanks for sharing that with us. [SPOILER] I'd assumed that the Winter Special would be set before Brooklyn's Timedancer adventures, given the lack of mention of Fu-Dog; in fact, I'd even thought that it might be set while the gargoyles still lived in the clock tower (one of the preview pages looked as if it was set in that neighborhood). But we'll find out in a couple of days. [/SPOILER]

Rewatched "Upgrade" today. It's not one of my favorite "Gargoyles" episodes - like most of the Pack stories, it feels more like a half-hour fight - but it has a few good moments.

The part that stood out to me the most, of course, from the start, was the permanent change to Jackal, Hyena, and Wolf, which I found unsettling, in fact. I remember that the first time I watched this episode, I was thinking "Please tell me that Jackal and Hyena are just wearing fancy high-tech armor", but soon had to face the facts: they'd become cyborgs. With Wolf, that approach wasn't even an option; it was clear that he was now a literal wolf-man. And while Dingo had been just another member of the Pack to me until then, I started liking the guy for: a) refusing to undergo similar changes (settling for the armor) and b) being unnerved by the way his teammates had changed. In fact, the latter was a great way, I think, of expressing the shocked response the viewers must have been feeling.

I forgot to mention this when discussing "Leader of the Pack", but I thought that "Coyote" was a very appropriate name for the robotic Pack member introduced in that episode, but returning in this one. His name matches the canid theme of the Pack, but he's also named after a legendary trickster (whom we'll meet in "Cloud Fathers"), which ties in with his impersonating Xanatos (also a major trickster) in his first appearance.

The title feels all the more appropriate because it's not just the Pack who get upgraded; this is the episode where Brooklyn officially becomes Goliath's second-in-command (and fortunately without undergoing such drastic changes). I particularly liked the touch at the end where he's hoping that he won't have to succeed Goliath to the leadership position in the near future - unaware of what's awaiting the clan just a few episodes later. And we see why he's the second-in-command, such moments as recognizing in the first fight that tending to Goliath is more important than going after the Pack, and that they need to plan out their confrontation with the upgraded Pack.

And we have Xanatos and Fox playing their chess game behind the scenes, with some shrewd moves (I particularly liked Fox's method of alerting the trio ). I'm not certain if I spotted this before or not, but Fox was wearing her Pack uniform there - the only time (to the best of my knowledge) that she went back to it after her introduction in "The Thrill of the Hunt".

At the end of the first fight, Wolf shouts "This isn't over" - the same words used by Hakon at the end of *his* first fight with the gargoyles - which seems very appropriate now.

We see the new character design for Talon during Coyote's "video sales pitch", even though that won't officially be revealed until "The Cage", two episodes later.

When the trio are arguing over who's done the most, Bronx moans and covers his ears with his front paws - for once, acting like a conventional "cartoon mascot" of the Scooby-Doo variety.

Broadway caught the most crooks, saying "You've just gotta know where to look". I think it ties in well with his being apparently the trio's expert on regular crime (especially the organized variety), something we'll see more of in the next episode (alongside other episodes).

This is the only episode where the gargoyles' enemies talk about eating them (mainly Hyena's "I wonder if gargoyles taste like chicken" line, though we've also got Dingo's "I hope you're not planning to eat your catch"). I noted during my 25th anniversary review of "Gargoyles" the major role that "hunting" played in human attacks on gargoyles, but of the different motives one might have for hunting (such as sport or eradicating a species looked upon as dangerous predators), hunting for food only appeared here. I think it's natural; for one thing, trying to eat sentient beings would probably have seemed way too disturbing. (Also, from an in-world perspective, I suspect that most of the humans bent on hunting gargoyles would regard them as unnatural creatures - far too unnatural to eat.)

Not the deepest episode of "Gargoyles", but still rather fun.


FAVORITE LINES.

{Knocking on the door to the Pack's airship - while it's in flight.}

JACKAL: Anybody expecting visitors?

{Wolf opens the door, revealing Coyote's floating head outside.}

COYOTE: May I come in?


JACKAL: What's the catch?

COYOTE: Please. It's all compliments of the hard-working men and women of Xanatos Enterprises.


COYOTE: Ah, Goliath. I'd like you to meet my better half.


JACKAL: You're not siding with this... glorified toaster oven?

HYENA: I find him very attractive.

JACKAL: Well, that's sicker than usual.


DINGO: What a choice. A robot who thinks he's human, or a human who's gone to the dogs.


BROOKLYN: One mugging and one burglar who's considering new career options.


LEXINGTON: If I was leader, I'd make sure that my clan knew where I was at all times.

BROADWAY: If you were leader, I'd be somewhere else at all times.


FOX (as a voice-over on the television): Tired of walking down Lexington Avenue? Sick of taking that long bus ride up Broadway? Fed up with bumper-to-bumper all the way to Brooklyn?

BROOKLYN: She's talking to us.

FOX: Don't "Pack" it in. Take the train.


HYENA: I know you're around here somewhere, you flying rat.

LEXINGTON: That's "Mr. Flying Rat" to you.


BROOKLYN (after Coyote gets demolished by a train): Remind me not to get hit by one of those.


OFFICER MORGAN: What I wanna know is, where do we take 'em? A hospital, a machine shop, or a vet?


FOX: Checkmate.

XANATOS: Well played.

FOX: Aren't you angry? I know you don't like to lose.

XANATOS: But I've won, my darling. For in you, I have found a true equal. Care to play again?
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Dec 16, 2024 7:41:12 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

Fourth, and very much looking forward to the Winter Special this week. Third time's the charm! (Following the mediocre "Bronx Tail" in the 1990s Marvel comics, and of course the absolutely abysmal one on The Goliath Chronicles.)

Also, someone who appears to be a Dynamite employee said on reddit that the Winter Special takes place [SPOILER] about a month after Quest. So much for my speculation that it would be a different year due to the real-world snowfall, or lack thereof. [/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Mon, Dec 16, 2024 3:53:12 pm EST from 69.118.30.106

Third
Phil - [p1anderson at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Dec 16, 2024 1:25:01 pm EST from 50.192.123.171

Second!
Matt
"Human problems become gargoyle problems..."
posted @ Mon, Dec 16, 2024 8:47:33 am EST from 204.184.178.1

First!
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Dec 16, 2024 12:05:36 am EST from 75.222.33.248