CRAIG - Good comments. I think that one other obvious structural difference between the two series (connected to what you brought up) is that Batman and his setting was already familiar to the audience, while "Gargoyles" was introducing its characters and story to the world for the first time. So "Gargoyles" opened with "Awakening", providing the story of how Goliath and his clan awakened in New York, while "Batman: TAS" opened with Batman already being established as a crime-fighter in Gotham City. (I looked it up, and found that the first episode was "On Leathery Wings", the one that had him encountering Man-Bat, and which is one of the episodes that I've seen. It's evidently set early in his career, with the Gotham City police department being unfamiliar with him and suspicious enough to wonder if he's the one responsible for the Man-Bat activity - not to mention that Harvey Dent is still a regular district attorney and hasn't become one of the "Batman" villains yet, though he's already tossing a coin in the air in an ominous way.... But it's definitely not an origin story, the way "Awakening" was for the gargoyles.)

Jurgan's comment does raise the question over whether the gargoyles taking trips abroad would have worked better if it had been done as "one-shot visits", like Hudson and Lexington's trip to London in the Stone of Destiny story, rather than an arc. One of those things we'll never know now.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sun, Dec 29, 2024 7:52:08 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

Ed makes a great point about the most successful World Tour episodes generally (although not always) being the ones where the writers and story editors were more knowledgeable and/or passionate about the culture of that particular destination. It's sort of interesting that the Gargoyles crew actually gave themselves EXTRA work by creating the World Tour, at a time when they could barely stay afloat as it was. Every World Tour episode required a not-insignificant amount of research that wouldn't have been necessary if they'd just continued to tell stories in Manhattan. And this in an era when Google didn't exist, and they'd have to search out books. It's admirable that they took on this extra work that they REALLY didn't need at the time, in order to keep the show fresh and interesting in the best way they could think of. But also perhaps is a reason for the sometimes uneven results, especially on some of the episodes where Greg has admitted that they got stuff wrong just because there wasn't the time to fully research something.

Todd > I think that one advantage B:TAS had is decades of comics to build upon, and in particular, Batman's famous Rogues Gallery. Although Gargoyles has given us at least two of the greatest villains of all time IMO, and several other very memorable ones, Batman certainly has a deeper bench of great and varied villains, thanks to the various creators who'd worked on the comics over half a century (at that time). There was just a lot to pull from in order to create varied episodes. That being said, while B:TAS is one of my favorite animated series of all time, I do think that Gargoyles overall had a higher batting average in terms of successful episodes.
Craig
posted @ Sun, Dec 29, 2024 5:24:11 pm EST from 69.118.30.106

I think it likely there wouldn't have been a World Tour if season two had had a normal episode order. Greg has said it was the necessity of cranking out episodes so quickly that forced them to open up the world the way they did. I think if each season had been 13 episodes, they would have stayed in Manhattan much longer. I'm confident they'd eventually have discovered other gargoyles alive throughout the world, but I expect we'd have seen just the occasional travel episode rather than a continuous tour. It's fascinating how these concepts that seem so concrete to us were created by whims of fate. If Greg says he felt like he was tapping into a Gargoyles universe that really exists, then there are alternate versions of it that he might have tapped into had real life circumstances gone differently. Similarly, the fact that we're getting new stories in comic book form in 2024 rather than new animated episodes in 1996 can't help but have an influence on how things are presented.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sun, Dec 29, 2024 5:05:36 pm EST from 75.222.33.248

BLAISE AND ED - Thanks for your thoughts and memories on the Avalon World Tour.

I agree with Blaise that it's a pity "Kingdom" had to air out of order; when it comes between "Heritage" and "Monsters" as it was intended to, it feels much better, by addressing the "home front" sooner.

I think Ed raised a good point about "what if they'd delayed much of what actually became Season Two until Season Three". I'm not an expert in the backstory of the closing days of "Gargoyles", but I did get the impression that the higher-ups who liked "Gargoyles" or approved of it had left, and their successors apparently thought that it was the wrong direction for Disney and that it should return to more conventional fare. So that "changing of the guard" could have resulted in no Season Three even without the viewer response to the World Tour. (I'll be listening closely, when "Voices from the Eyrie" reaches the close of Season Two, for any further "behind-the-scenes" information from Greg Weisman and other guests that could indicate whether that's indeed the case or not.)

And I was interested in your speculation, Ed, about "Heritage" and "The New Olympians". I'll have more to say about them both after I rewatch them - and, of course, "Heritage" is next on my list - but "Heritage" did strike me as one of the weaker episodes (largely thanks to the focus being on Natsilane, who's a bit on the dull side - though it has some good moments too, as I'll say when I post my review of it), and I'll admit that while I found the concept of "The New Olympians" and the Greek mythology elements in it fun, it's not one of the really big World Tour episodes for me like "Shadows of the Past" or "Sanctuary". (It hasn't helped that it's struck me that the New Olympians seem a bit redundant - a second intelligent non-human species persecuted by humans, forced into hiding, but leaving traces behind in human myths and legends = without shedding light on the gargoyles themselves in so doing. At least, not the kind of parallel that we got with, say, Xanatos and Thailog or Demona and Jon Canmore.)

I've sometimes speculated over whether "Gargoyles" could have found a different way to keep the series fresh while having the clan stay in Manhattan. I remember Michael Reaves, at the 2001 Gathering, expressing some doubts about the World Tour, stating that when he'd worked on "Batman: TAS", they didn't have any problems keeping Batman in Gotham City. While I've watched many individual episodes of "Batman: TAS" and thought they were well-done, I never saw it properly start to finish as I did with "Gargoyles", so I don't know how they did it and whether the methods they used could have worked with "Gargoyles"; could those more familiar with the series than I am answer that question, please?
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Dec 28, 2024 7:23:45 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

I actually started watching during the World Tour and the highly episodic nature therefore didn't seem out of step with most Disney animation. But what really gripped me was the arrival of Oberon and Titania since I'd just been reading AMND in school. Then "The Gathering" Part One redefined my expectations for the show still further. But I was unable to watch the rest of the season and so it wasn't until ITV started airing season 1 a few months later - and fortunately I happened to be flipping through the channels when "Awakening" Part One was mid-way through - that I got to experience it.

I can absolutely see how the tour would be frustrating watched live, especially with that big break. I see the logic for it and I love it as a way to invigorate the show and take a risk. But cutting out a huge swathe of the cast including, for the most part, characters like Xanatos and Demona as well as the heroes, played against the show's strengths.

Also, whereas the Scottish history in "City of Stone" was so detailed and textured that it really beams through, most of the WT episodes lack this through no fault of anybody involved but purely as a function of the punishing schedule. I think it's telling that the episodes that are really popular are either character pieces like "Shadows" and "Future Tense" or else ones which clearly sync strongly with existing passions/knowledge bases of the writing staff - "Golem", "M.I.A." and "Grief" being cases in point where Gary, Greg and Michael respectively REALLY knew their stuff and it just shows. Imagine the writing staff had the time to bone up as they did with the Scottish history so that all the WT episodes had that kind of confidence - then I think it would have been a different matter.

(Incidentally, I recall Greg mentioned in a recent Voices that there were a few World Tour pitches that nobody wanted to take on and they ended up having to be assigned. I wonder which those were. I rather suspect they were the stories that Adam Gilad ended up scripting - "Heritage" and "The New Olympians" since none of the 'regulars' picked them up.)

But while it's nice to entertain counterfactuals about season 2 and it's frustrating that Greg got pressed for time, I would question - given the fate of the Disney Afternoon and the success of Power Rangers - whether if 'Gargoyles' had a shorter season 2 it may not have had a substantial season 3 or at least one without Greg involved. As much as it stressed Greg, I ultimately can't regret the 52 episode order even if it means a few of the episodes feel a bit less polished than others.

And frankly, given the incredible ambition of the stories and the demands of the schedule, it's astonishing that the season is as good as it is. Everything counts. Everything feels earned. The settings introduce all sorts of wonderful and creative and vibrant concepts. It's an astonishing achievement.

I sometimes think an "alternative world" version I like would have been:

A Season 2 of 18 episodes and the direct-to-VHS "City of Stone". "Vows" would be a 2-parter ending the first half; the second half would start with "High Noon" with presumably the VHS releasing in between. "Protection" and "The Price" would be skipped and the season would end with "Avalon Part Three".

Season 3 is 26 episodes. "Protection" and "The Price" are refashioned as Trio, Hudson & Matt Bluestone episodes giving us a strong Broadway episode and a strong Hudson episode mid-WT (if Lex was given a stronger emphasis in either "Pendragon" or "The Green" it would keep his character in the spotlight more too). Also added would be "Reunion" and one other episode - personally I think "Grief" as a mid-season 2-parter would have been amazing and would help the rhythm of the tour which is the show's longest stint without a big multi-parter. I suspect it would be either the Korean or Wendigo episode based on prior comments of Greg's. Although given the show's timeline it could equally as well be "The Rock". Either way, Season 3 would end on "The Gathering Part Two".

I expect season 4 would have been quite different in this case since I doubt "Hunter's Moon" would have taken place before the finale and so depending on the number of episodes the tier might have been bigger. The Vinnie and Hakon pitches probably wouldn't be melded together which I think would have been better - while I see the appeal of the hybrid episode, I'm not sure either story quite got their due out of melding them. The stories we've seen in the comics mostly have to be post-"Hunter's Moon" although perhaps Brooklyn's timedance could have started early. Unless "Hunter's Moon" was a direct-to-VHS after season 3.

Anyway, all things considered, I think we lucked out with what we got in season 2 both in quality and quantity.

Also as with Blaise, if I don't get to posting here beforehand, happy new year to everybody! A quarter way into the 2000s. As Vinnie would say, can you believe it?
Ed
posted @ Sat, Dec 28, 2024 6:27:39 pm EST from 209.198.129.86

****Blaise pilots a skiff into the room. No, there is no water, it is just hovering about a few feet off the floor.****
I know these days I don't normally post more than my reviews of the latest material (I feel like I should say "sorry" for that...), but I had 2 cents burning a hole in my pocket to contribute to this week's conversation.


THE AVALON WORLD TOUR (AND OTHER THINGS)> So, a little background: I lived in central Oregon when "Gargoyles" was airing, and the local Fox station was the affiliate that carried it. When Season 2 started airing, the affiliate moved "Gargoyles" from every Friday at 7am to Monday through Thursday at 2:30pm. This schedule change did not make me miss an episode because "Gargoyles" was the show that made me actually start reading my local TV listings well in advance. What caused me an issue was that I was still in school at 2:30pm, so "Gargoyles" also became the show that made me learn how to program a VCR in order to watch the new episodes, and that worked...for the most part. Unfortunately, the VCR was temperamental and on at least three occasions throughout the season crapped out and didn't record the episode that day. And it was always a new episode. For whatever reason, the three new episodes it missed recording were the whole Mutate story-line: "Metamorphosis," "The Cage" and "Kingdom"--that last one I didn't see until late in the summer of 1996, making it the last "new" episode of "Gargoyles" for me. It felt good to finally get that missing puzzle piece, especially because at some point in early Season 2 (I think when I managed to catch "Metamorphosis" in reruns before "Avalon") Brooklyn became my favorite character and this was a big spotlight on him.

What does all this have to do with the Avalon World Tour and my reaction to it? Well, as you can imagine, my favorite character not being on screen as much did frustrate me (thought not, I gather, as much as some others got frustrated with the Tour). I knew from Tom's statement at the end of "Avalon" that they weren't getting home right away, and I didn't expect it to be "one and done" with "Shadows of the Past." And I was OK with the idea of a long journey for Goliath, Elisa and Bronx (and Angela!), but I just wanted to see how the Home Team was dealing with their absence, especially with Brooklyn having to step into the role of Leader. I was waiting for the episode that let us check in with them. I'm not saying I didn't wonder "When are they getting home?" from time to time, but I more wondered "When are we going to see what's going on at home?" Unfortunately, as we all know, that episode, "Kingdom," wound up getting massively delayed and didn't air until the start of the block of new episodes in February of 1996. And in my case, because of my VCR, I missed it even then!

I feel like if "Kingdom" had been able to air when it was supposed to, as the third episode after "Avalon," some (not all, but some) of the negativity to this arc would have been greatly mitigated. For my part, I liked the episodes we were getting, and when we started getting new eps fast and furious in February I was a lot happier! Yes, even with missing "Kingdom" the first time. While I can point to some of these episodes and say "I'm not particularly fond of this one," I cannot say I feel that any of them should have been cut. I loved seeing the myths and cultures from around the world. I loved the future story hooks that were introduced. I loved getting more development of the characters as Angela learns her parentage, Goliath learns to *be* a parent, and Elisa finally comes clean to her family. I want to keep all these episodes--heck, I'd like even more! I just would have liked checking in with the Manhattan crew a bit more, too.

And as I mentioned above, I felt a lot better when we got three weeks in a row of new episodes in February! As others have said: the majority of the reruns occurring during the Tour probably did not help matters. I feel like, if the Buena Vista distributors had been smarter...well, they wouldn't have demanded 52 episodes in such a short time-frame in the first place, but failing THAT...they could have split up the season so that all of the Avalon World Tour eps could air together. Of course, this is hindsight from someone who has no experience in that part of the industry, so [shrug].

I'll also say that I cannot recall "Gargoyles" being preempted in my area while it was airing. At the very least, I know I didn't miss out on the first airings of any new episodes because of that (I only missed them because of my freakin' unreliable VCR...).


I don't know if I'll feel the urge to post anything else before the New Year, so if I don't: see you all in 2025!
****Mists arise from nowhere and wrap about the skiff and its occupant. They just as suddenly recede leaving empty space where Blaise and boat had been.****
Blaise
"There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes."--The Doctor
posted @ Sat, Dec 28, 2024 4:32:36 pm EST from 45.48.46.39

"Shadows of the Past" is a great follow-up to the theme of redemption of Magus. Magus spent the rest of his life redeeming a bad decision he once made while the Captain has spent a thousand years stewing in his own mistake, only finding redemption at the end.

When I first reviewed "Awakening" I wanted to point out the interesting counterpoints between the two. Magus is at first seen as untrustworthy to Robbie being the longsuffering ally to the gargoyles. The red herring is revealed by the end with the Captain letting his own people, to say the least his own men, be massacred by the Vikings and ultimately stand back and watch his true companions share the same fate. But if Shakespearian hero like Magus can find redemption can a ghost do the same.

I feel it's safe to say that while Hakon and Robbie mentally torment Goliath, each of these illusions is a confession for the Captain. Goliath may be burdened by the loss on that fateful day, but he's repurposed that hurt into action. Robbie's loss has followed him into the afterlife and it's only by accepting his mistake and letting go of his anger that he's able to pass on. And Hakon, who's addicted to that hate remains. One last ghost in a forgotten ruin.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sat, Dec 28, 2024 1:02:48 am EST from 73.170.51.164

"Shadows of the Past," while not my absolute favorite episode, is VERY high up there. It's tough to think of another episode where the writing, voice acting, and animation work so well hand-in-hand. Such a great, moody psychological drama. I don't think I've ever seen lighting effects that incredible in any other TV animation. And not even in too many features, for that matter. This was the first episode of season 2 where Walt Disney Japan handled pre-production as well as the animation, and you can tell that they REALLY put their all into it. This is one of the handful of episodes that I'll just throw on periodically, outside of a full rewatch, just because I'm in the mood.
Craig
posted @ Fri, Dec 27, 2024 9:04:08 pm EST from 69.118.30.106

That was my comment. Just didn't have my usual options active.
Antiyonder
posted @ Fri, Dec 27, 2024 8:40:34 pm EST from 68.119.3.1

Craig> Not anything OJ Simpson related, but the premiere of The Reckoning wasn't shown and it did come into play for Hunter's Moon episode wise, plus the Previously On Gargoyles segment.
Anonymous
posted @ Fri, Dec 27, 2024 8:26:01 pm EST from 68.119.3.1

I'd like to thank everyone here for posting their memories of and thoughts on the Avalon World Tour.

I rewatched the first episode of the World Tour on DVD today, "Shadows of the Past". It's one of the best episodes from that part of "Gargoyles", if not the best. I suspect that, if all the episodes in the Avalon World Tour had been on its level, the World Tour would probably have been more popular.

"Shadows of the Past" is a very atmospheric story, and with great animation alongside it. (I noticed several neat little touches as I watched it: Elisa slipping for a moment as she walks up the stone path leading to Wyvern Hill, Bronx sliding down the cliff side for a moment as he's climbing it, Elisa dislodging a few pieces of rock as she stands at the edge of the path in the cave, after Goliath fell over it.) The focus is on the ghosts of Hakon and the Captain of the Guard besieging Goliath, wearing him down until he's no longer certain what's real and what isn't. And the setting, the former site of Castle Wyvern (with the gaping hole in the hill giving a sense of the impact Xanatos made in removing the castle) and the nearby cave, help all the more. It's a definite "Gargoyles" ghost story, and an excellent one.

The Captain and Hakon try to convince Goliath, as a major part of their attack on him, that he's responsible (or at least, shares the responsibility) for the Wyvern Massacre, and do a fine job of it. Goliath's decision to just take Hudson along with him had resulted in the Captain and Demona's scheme going awry, and while it's still their doing, I've seen the occasional argument that Goliath's decision was based on arrogance ("I can scare those cowards away without any help"). Certainly I can imagine Goliath also having some "survivors' guilt" to play on. They wear him down effectively, with everything from making him see Elisa and Angela as Hakon and the Captain (with the particularly creepy moment when Elisa and Angela's voices are coming from Hakon and the Captain's mouths) to the attack of the "undead gargoyles".

(I've sometimes wondered how Demona would respond if confronted with a similar march of the "undead gargoyles shattered in the Wyvern Massacre" all accusing her of being responsible for their fate. Most likely screaming, with increasing franticness, that it was the Captain and Hakon's fault, not hers, that it was never her fault.)

I also liked the touch of "Demona" saying to Goliath "Join me in the dark" (it feels like a good description of her attempts to bring him over to her side).

Of course, their using Demona (complete with a neat moment of the mace forming in her hand) turns out to be the fatal mistake since Goliath knows she wasn't one of the casualties, which leads to the confrontation with Hakon and the Captain's ghosts. (Hakon's "finally figured it out" remark reminded me of an episode of the original "Duck Tales" where Magica de Spell cursed both Scrooge McDuck and Huey, Louie, and Dewey with beholding their worst fears, culminating in, for Scrooge, the nephews turning into juvenile delinquents and for the nephews, Scrooge throwing them out of his mansion, and with the repeated phrase - particularly coming from Magica in the big confrontation moment "Figured it out, did you?")

This time around, I noted a slight parallel to "Avalon" with Hakon and the Captain. Hakon talks about having waited a thousand years to get at Goliath; the Archmage made a similar boast in "Avalon". (Hakon's boast is more accurate, of course; he experienced the full thousand years while the Archmage skipped over almost all of it thanks to the Phoenix Gate.) And the Captain, like the Magus, is burdened by guilt over his actions - but then proceeds to atone for what he did, leading to a moment of reconciliation at the end.

Another good touch in the confrontation scene is when Hakon is attacking Goliath, now that he's becoming more solid again - then his fists start going through Goliath because the latter is turning into a ghost - and Hakon, realizing this, laughs even louder. While the Captain, in the meantime, is staring down at his own solidifying hands in a saddened silence.

We get our first look at the mysterious stone structure (roughly dolmen-like) in the cave, which Greg Weisman once called the Megalith Dance - a name that reminds me of Geoffrey of Monmouth's name for Stonehenge "the Giants' Dance". (The latter name is connected to a legend that Stonehenge was originally a group of giants who were turned into stone while dancing. There are similar stories about other stone circles or groups of ancient stones in the British Isles; I recently wondered whether, in the Gargoyles Universe, the legends about petrified giants came from distorted reports about gargoyles turning into stone in the daytime, one of those cases where word spread through several tellers to human communities that had never encountered gargoyles, knew only rumors of them, and got altered enough by the transmission to make it look like one-time permanent petrification rather than a natural part of gargoyle biological cycles.) We'll see it again, of course, in "Dark Ages: Alliance". I'd certainly like to know more about the cave and its secrets. (I also spotted at least one giant skull - or maybe rock shaped like a giant skull - the spot where the Archmage was standing back in "Long Way Till Morning", and have wondered about that. We know, of course, that it can't belong to Wyvern, since he's still alive - at least, as of 1997 - but maybe another dragon?)

There's a possible animation error at the former site of Castle Wyvern when we see what looks like the entrance to a cave, supposedly the rookery cave. We now know, of course, that the rookery cave was transferred to the top of the Eyrie Building along with the rest of the castle. Apparently the animators didn't fully realize that. (Of course, it wouldn't make sense from a storytelling sense to have the rookery cave there, or Goliath and the others could have taken shelter in it from the storm rather than in the Archmage's cave.)

And we get a glimpse of Hakon's battle-axe (which Greg Weisman, no doubt, still regrets not making a mace) in the cave - looking remarkably well-preserved for something that had been lying there for a thousand years.

The final scene is a great one: Hakon raging in fury about having no one around to hate. I've mentioned it before, but it seems like a reverse of Jean-Paul Sartre's statement (at least, I think it was his) about Hell being other people.

A wonderful episode, in short, and truly worth revisiting.

FAVORITE LINES.

ELISA: Whare are we?

GOLIATH: It's home! My home!


GOLIATH: What good... is life... without honor?


HAKON: We've hated Goliath for a thousand years!

CAPTAIN: Nay, I've hated myself for betraying him! And now I've been given a chance to atone!


ELISA: Who were they, Goliath?

GOLIATH: One enemy... and one friend.


HAKON: Don't leave me here alone! Not without anyone to hate!
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Dec 27, 2024 7:19:40 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

As best I can recall, my thoughts on the World Tour was that it felt like it took FOREVER for them to get home. I was so anxious for Angela to meet the Trio. I liked a lot of the episodes along the way ("Shadows", "MIA", "The Green", and "Bushido" especially), but I was so impatient. Looking back now, I wish we could've gotten the Coldstone/Himalayas episode (and loved that we got it in the SLG run), the introductions of the Korean and Xanadu Clans, and the Shambahla episode.

I have very clear memories of the day after "Ill Met..." aired. I went to school and talked to my friend who was also a big fan and told her "They're finally getting home tomorrow, I just know it." And then we got "Future Tense" and I was both dissapointed (because they didn't make it home) and delighted (because the episode was so cool and I knew they'd get home the NEXT episode.

Anyway, in hindsight, the World Tour was critical for various reasons. And I love it. But in the midst of it, it was hard to bear. And stumbles and delays didn't help.
Matt
"Human problems become gargoyle problems..."
posted @ Fri, Dec 27, 2024 9:58:14 am EST from 47.233.90.133

My first experience of the World Tour was utter confusion- I had gotten used to rushing home to see the show after school during City of Stone, then it changed time slot to the morning, and by the time I found it again they were already into the World Tour. So I missed Avalon and didn't know why they were on a boat and who the new character was.

Also, my wife got me NECA Demona for Christmas, so now I have her and Goliath.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Dec 27, 2024 12:51:41 am EST from 75.222.33.248

This was great!
http://www.yourconcretecompanytx.com - [jackdeone27 at gmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, Dec 27, 2024 12:35:43 am EST from 49.146.217.36

Considering I was watching the series after school, and not necessarily in order, I don't have much opinions on the OJ trial and what it did with local cable.

For the World Tour, Craig put it pretty well with the huge change to the format of storytelling and how big an ask that is for the audience. Gargoyles, much like Star Trek, is an ensemble show with each character going through their own arc. The rapid change to just a few and one of them a newcomer for the following episodes doesn't give the rest of the cast much to do. It's Goliath, Elisa, Angela and Bronx having the world-trotting adventure, making the big discoveries and so on. The fact that there's very little showcasing what the rest of the Clan is getting up to could be interpreted as favoritism. When Star Trek also showed some form of favoritism to a few characters or a single one, opinions weren't exactly favorable.

The world building is necessary though some of the backdoor pilots could be a bit less obvious. I sometimes wonder if the World Tour would've been better if somehow all the clan was involved, like Lexington being the one to visit the London Clan or Hudson visiting Loch Ness, that kind of thing. Opinions are going to vary on which episodes are better or more important to the world building but it is what it is and even if the show is in an uneven point I still put it higher than a lot of other television.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Thu, Dec 26, 2024 8:51:30 pm EST from 73.170.51.164

O.J. Simpson (other than the infamous Bronco chase) may not have preempted anything in Chicago either. Maybe it did, but I seem to recall keeping up with the show one way or another anyway, which I don't think would have happened if the trial had been on.

I don't remember a specific reaction to the World Tour myself. Probably just something like, "oh, we're going in this direction," and perhaps a bit of initial concern that we would never see the others in Manhattan again. I do suspect I picked up on the show going toward more of a "monster-of-the-week" format (even without a name for it at that point), but if I'd had any concerns about that leading to more boilerplate scripts, "Protection" had shown me that "Gargoyles" could deal with that (having taken one of my least-favorite boilerplate stories and crushed it) and I was perhaps more intrigued than concerned. I'll have more to say about that when we get to "The New Olympians."

I do distinctly recall my reaction to the "Avalon" series was joy that Goliath's clan was not facing a dead-end after all, and that they would have some sort of a future ahead of them. That joy may have turned into, "geez, how many of you ARE there?" as the World Tour continued to turn up more clans stashed away around the world, but more in delight than in dismay. And it did help put the characters into the context of a much, much wider world than just Manhattan and bits of historical Scotland. It gave them a more global relevance.
morrand - [morrand276 at gmail dot com]
posted @ Thu, Dec 26, 2024 11:45:06 am EST from 108.69.72.60

St. Louis (where I lived at the time) was also fortunate enough not to have any pre-emptions from the trial.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Dec 26, 2024 8:07:34 am EST from 68.99.93.213

CRAIG> No memories here, with WPIX New York, of any Gargoyles episodes being pre-empted for the OJ Simpson trial.

But considering the nature of syndication, I am sure there are plenty of markets across the country where it did happen. And if most of Tier Two ("Leader of the Pack" through "Vows") and "City of Stone" were pre-empted in several markets? Yeah, I can see that having an affect on the ratings... those episodes were laying the groundwork for the season. And I could easily see some of those kids in the audience changing channels and watching Power Rangers instead.

I do specifically remember "Hunter's Moon Part Three" being pre-empted for a Yankees game. But that was the second run. So us WPIX viewers were lucky overall.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Thu, Dec 26, 2024 7:32:03 am EST from 67.189.200.184

Todd > Good analysis there. I definitely remember that I assumed "Shadows of the Past" would be a one-off (and a terrific one), and then they'd be back to Manhattan. So I was rather surprised, and disheartened, when the following week just kept continuing the skiff journey with the decidedly not-so-good "Heritage" and "Monsters" (although I do like "Heritage" a bit more now than I used to). The show jettisoning its central setting and much of its cast, and veering off in a totally different direction, was a huge "ask" of the audience to begin with, and starting off with a couple of pretty weak episodes definitely didn't help. Those were not the best "proof of concept" episodes to sell most people on this new direction. The four December episodes were decidedly better, and I think at that point I decided to just settle in and go with the flow. I will still say that the World Tour has a much lower success rate for me than either season 1, or season 2 up to and including "Avalon." Far fewer episodes that I consider top tier. Despite the wide variety of settings and guest characters, which could theoretically make each episode feel fresh, the show becomes more formulaic, with the crew wandering "from town to town" and inevitably coming across people who need help each episode, a la the Lou Ferrigno Incredible Hulk. But I do love the way it opened up the world and expanded the mythology in so, so many directions, so I wouldn't trade it for anything else. And as you say, there's no guarantee that if the show had stayed in Manhattan, it wouldn't have stagnated.

As for the O.J. Simpson trial, the verdict was rendered on October 3, 1995, so those preemptions would have primarily effected the first four weeks of season 2 (i.e., up through "Outfoxed"). I know for a fact no first-run episodes were preempted on WPIX in NY; but it's possible that some repeats were. I don't have a clear memory. But I have heard that in L.A. some first-run episodes were preempted (which makes sense given the location of the crime), and maybe in other markets as well? I wonder if anyone here has specific memories of preemptions.
Craig
posted @ Thu, Dec 26, 2024 3:41:58 am EST from 69.118.30.106

Sorry for the double post, but:

JURGAN - I got to read your fanfic. [SPOILER] I recognized it as based on the story about St. Nicholas restoring the three butchered children to life, of course, and quite enjoyed it - including what struck me as some well-researched work on the various disputes between different branches of Christianity at the Council of Nicaea. I was particularly amused at the "foreshadowing use" of the Magus's spell in "Avalon Part One". [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Dec 25, 2024 9:06:26 am EST from 68.99.93.213

Merry Christmas!

MATTHEW - Thanks for your comments on "Avalon Part Three", particularly some good analysis on Princess Katharine and the Magus.

The Avalon World Tour will be next in the episodes I'll be rewatching, and I thought I'd make a few remarks on this one. The World Tour is probably the most controversial part of "Gargoyles" (more so than the Goliath Chronicles, because opinion seems divided down the middle on the World Tour, while the Goliath Chronicles have few defenders). Many "Gargoyles" viewers saw it as a major mistake that doomed the series, while others liked it and thought it a good idea. The reasons for considering it a bad idea are obvious: Hudson and the trio are all but absent, so is the New York setting, many of the episodes revolved around one-shot characters becoming local heroes (and it didn't help that the first of these, Natsilanee, felt rather dull), etc.

I'll confess that I can't recall now what my initial response to the Avalon World Tour was. I can recall my response to many individual episodes, yes, but not whether I was enjoying the overall concept or feeling impatient for it to be over. At least, those memories aren't as clear as my initial response to "Gargoyles" when "Awakening" began, or my first viewings of earlier episodes like "City of Stone", "The Price", or "Avalon".

I thought I'd look at the reasons why the production team took this route and comment on them.

1. We know that one of the big reasons was that, after Disney failed (initially) to buy Marvel, they thought of making their own "super-hero universe" with "Gargoyles" as the starting-point, branching off into various spin-offs. Of course, that didn't work out; none of the projected spin-offs ever got made. I've wondered whether Disney got a little too excited about venturing into new territory with "Gargoyles". Certainly, if the Avalon World Tour had a lot to do with waning ratings (of course, the pre-emptions for the O. J. Simpson trial didn't help), it would have had the irony that the very attempt to produce the "Gargoyles Television Universe" resulted in its not being made. (And, as I pointed out above, the episodes that generally don't seem to have gone down well were often the "back-door pilot" ones.)

The other two reasons are much stronger, however.

2. The Avalon World Tour was probably the only convincing way to have the Manhattan clan discover that there were other gargoyles out there, enough to show that the species wasn't irrevocably doomed to extinction (as would be the case for a species which has dropped to only seven members, only one of whom is female - and that female estranged from all the others in a very dramatic way). Only the magic of Avalon could have provided the transportation and navigation for Goliath to contact the other clans.

Now, while most "Gargoyles" fans, from what I've gathered, approved of this development, I've come across a few arguments that the series was a lot better when the Manhattan clan and Demona were the only gargoyles left, because of the effectively tragic atmosphere. Certainly it provided some good drama in the early episodes. (I'll confess that I don't remember giving any thought to the "last of their kind" situation when the series first aired, before the World Tour. Probably because what most interested me about the series then was the notion of medieval beings - who happen to be non-human - awakening in the modern world and seeking to understand it.) And I think that the series needn't have been too gloom-ridden if these seven gargoyles had been the only ones left; the element of hope could have been focused on the difference Goliath and his clan were making in protecting Manhattan, summed up in Elisa's line at the end of "Re-Awakening", "The city feels safer already". ("Superman" has managed, from what I've seen of the property, to have an upbeat tone in spite of Superman being the last of his kind, though I suspect that a lot of it comes from his Kryptonian origin being treated as largely a plot-device to explain his abilities; the crucial point about him is that he's a guy with super-powers who uses them to help people out of a desire to help - I recall Lois Lane giving a description of him that way in the first season of "My Adventures with Superman" that I thought summed up the concept perfectly - than the last survivor of an ancient alien civilization. I'm not enough of a Superman expert to say more, though; I'll leave it to those who are.)

But I think that if the series had stayed that way, there'd have been one major problem; what the gargoyles would do next, beyond "defeating the Villain of the Episode". In Season One, we had a strong sense of the gargoyles doing more than that - they awaken in the modern world, explore it, move from the castle to the clock tower, settle in it, and make their oath to protect Manhattan. But after that, if you're the last of your species and there won't be any more gargoyles after you, what next? There'd be maybe "preparing for the end", but I suspect that would have been considered too bleak for the Disney Afternoon, even for a "darker-than-usual" series like "Gargoyles". (I once imagined, in speculating about that alternate path for the series, Goliath realizing that the city would need new "specialized protectors" once the gargoyles were no more, to handle the more unusual threats like Demona, and searching for a way to provide some. It would have had some potential, certainly - for a start, it could have served as a contrast to Xanatos's own attempts to make his own gargoyles, with such challenges as that the Manhattan clan don't have the resources that Xanatos does, and certainly wouldn't be using his methods - but it would have had the disadvantage that, unless the production team handled it very carefully, it would end up revolving more around the "gargoyles' successors", once Goliath found and began training them, than around the gargoyles themselves.) But if there were other gargoyles out there, enough to rebuild, then Goliath and the others had more to work towards, and there could continue to be a a larger thread for them. (I've noticed that the Manhattan clan was relatively static in the early part of Season Two, compared to Season One. There are a few changes - Brooklyn becomes second-in-command, Hudson and Broadway learn how to read - but it seems that most of the development is happening to the people around them. Fox leaves the Pack, moves in with Xanatos, they get married and she's pregnant. Derek gets turned into a Mutate, works for Xanatos for a while, but ends up going his own way with the other Mutates. Demona now turns into a human in the daytime, thanks to Puck. Xanatos and Demona's alliance is severed permanently. And so on.)

So I'd say that "Gargoyles" being a series - and a series which focused on the gargoyles as gargoyles - meant that there'd need to be other gargoyles out there, enough to give them the goal of rebuilding. I believe that, if you're going to do a story about a species doomed to extinction, it works better if it's a "stand-alone" story, like a book or a movie. (One of my favorite examples of this is the Ents in "The Lord of the Rings", who are given their own rich depiction and who, like the gargoyles in the early days of the series, are also facing the prospect of "no more of their kind", thanks to their also being all-male and estranged from the females - though in Tolkien's story, the rift between the Ents and the Entwives was much greyer than that between Goliath and Demona.)

So from that perspective, the Avalon World Tour (or some version of it) was a must.

3. The third reason, which Greg Weisman brought up in "Voices from the Eyrie", was that if they just kept the gargoyles in Manhattan, with the same familiar opponents, there'd be the danger of stagnation - something which Matthew explored very well in his recent comments on "Upgrade", by the way. Certainly the World Tour provided a way of widening the picture, in a way that probably couldn't have been done without it. It allowed Goliath to see the world beyond Manhattan (particularly those other gargoyle clans, as I've mentioned). It might have helped if more of the episodes had been like "Shadows of the Past" (the next episode on the review list, and a very strong start to the World Tour), focusing on developing the main characters, but I think that it still ensured a broadening scope. (I'll admit that there were other ways in which this could have been done without leaving Manhattan - say, having the gargoyles become public knowledge in the middle of the second season rather than at the end, though I've very mixed feelings on that one - though certainly "Shadows of the Past" could only have been done at the former site of Castle Wyvern.)

So, my overall analysis is that something like the World Tour was necessary. The execution could have been better in places (maybe a partial result of the "fifty-two episodes in Season Two" that the production team were concerned about - it meant less time to work on the story for each individual episode), but the concept was vital. If the World Tour was a mistake, I would argue that the real mistake was making "Gargoyles" a sixty-five episode series and that it should have had far fewer overall episodes, maybe even be done as a mini-series rather than a series proper - but I certainly don't think that.

I'll have more to say when I look at each of the individual episodes in the days to come.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Dec 25, 2024 9:00:07 am EST from 68.99.93.213

I have threatened for years to write a Christmas fanfic revolving around the pseudo-historical figure of Saint Nicholas, but I was never able to figure out what it would be about. I finally did so a few days ago. Consider this my Christmas gift to this excellent group of people, and if you don't celebrate, I still hope you find hope, peace, joy, and love this season.

https://archiveofourown.org/works/61636186
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Dec 25, 2024 2:44:18 am EST from 75.222.33.248

I Found My Love In Avalon Beside The Bay
I Left My Love In Avalon And Sailed Away
I Dream Of Her And Avalon From Dusk 'Til Dawn
And So I Think I'll Travel On To Avalon
-Al Jolson

And so the Avalon Arc ends in drama, excitement, heartbreak and uncertainty. When we discussed the Eye of Odin and its nature to take a person's traits and emphasize them to inhuman extremes. Here the Archmage has all the power he could dream of and more, but even with the other Keys to help balance him out he remains the same arrogant, power-hungry megalomaniac he was without the Keys. But loftier the heights equals greater the fall.

Todd summed up how appropriate each opponent was for the battle, Katherine and Demona have the battle of motherhood and I think it's really important that it came down to these two and the protection of the wounded clan members. Ever since the sacking of Castle Wyvern Katherine has worked to become more than the superstitious and petulant princess into a strong, stalwart and powerful mother. Demona of course has only gotten worse and worse through the ages and enchanted or not, there's a revelry in trying to kill even her own kin that doesn't seem out of character. So when the two finally clash in the end it's not the centuries old warrior who comes out on top but the old mother who had love and loved ones to empower her.

I feel that even with all their power, the Weird Sisters have a blind spot when it comes to Magus. They possess power unlike any other we've seen thus far and have skillfully manipulated kings and warriors across the ages. But while they may know of love and anger and loss, they can't fathom the drive given by protecting someone that they love. They can recognize foolish actions that lead to one's own doom, they can't recognize the willingness to sacrifice oneself to ensure another's survival. The first time Magus defeats them he simply redirects their own spell back on them, the second time he binds them with the little bit of iron in Avalon. It's this kind of simplicity over power that's also a staple of Greg's works.

Magus draws a lot from Shakespearian heroes, one with a crucial flaw that so often leads to a tragic downfall. What sets him apart from them however is that Magus lived past the poor, impulsive choice that doomed characters like Romeo or Othello and it gave him the chance to grow and become better. But while he certainly did improve his sense of self-worth never did and so he loved from afar and let loneliness and depression live in his heart and soul. Never once considering the fact that his worth was never tied to an old book. Never thought on how in every moment he taught and raised the gargoyle children to be better than humanity's prejudices he repaid his mistake a hundred times over. The tragedy of the Magus was not a good man cursing our heroes by an impulsive choice, it was that he never realized that he was a good man and certainly worthy of love.

But one story's conclusion means another one begins.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Wed, Dec 25, 2024 12:43:32 am EST from 135.180.3.149

Rewatched "Avalon Part Three" today - the big wrap-up fight.

One feature that I particularly liked is the choice for who battles who in it. Goliath, the series lead, goes up against the Archmage, who's in charge of the attack on Avalon. The Magus faces the Weird Sisters, whom he'd earlier defeated and who are seeking revenge - and the one person on the heroes' side, as well, with some magical ability. King Arthur faces Macbeth; both are famous legendary British kings (and Macbeth had played a prominent role in the episode that introduced the Arthurian legend into "Gargoyles", "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time"). And while Elisa has another showdown with Demona again (who's as eager as ever to slaughter the detective), the person who really takes her down is Princess Katharine. Katharine's disdainful treatment of the gargoyles back in 994 had played a major role in bringing about Demona's betrayal; now Katharine is the one proecting the gargoyles resolutely - and does a fine job of it. (It's all the more impressive since she's from the tenth century, before the invention of high-tech fire-arms - or any fire-arms at all - and yet she successfully uses one to defeat Demona. It just goes to show you shouldn't "mess with the mother" - a lesson that others will be learning the hard way in episodes of "Gargoyles" to come.)

The Magus is at the dramatic heart of the story, in a very effective way. He watches, broken-hearted, as Princess Katharine falls in love with Tom, feeling that he has nothing to offer her himself. He stays on Avalon, even though it means witnessing the woman he loves choose someone else, because he sees it as his duty, looking after the young gargoyles to make amends for cursing the gargoyles. And he sacrifices himself to stop the Weird Sisters. His death-scene is sad, but with the consolation that he learns from Goliath that the latter now sees him as the man who saved the "Eggs" and raised them well, rather than as the man who trapped the surviving Wyvern gargoyles in stone sleep. That part struck me as an especially moving moment.

We also get in King Arthur - which just had to happen, this being Avalon. Avalon is most famous for it being the place where the wounded King Arthur was borne off to, to be healed of his injuries and to someday return; there was no way you could leave Arthur out, and still make it recognizably Avalon. I'll have more to say about the "Sleeping King" element below, as much a discussion of the original legends that the episode adapted as how they were adapted.

A minor note: I spotted what looked like a painting in the palace (in the room where they have the fight with Demona) that looked like two serpents, one red and one white, though I'm not completely certain. I can't help wondering if it's linked to the story of the fight between the red and white dragons that began Merlin's career; the Arthurian elements would certainly make it appropriate. But I might be reading too much here.

I can't help thinking that Elisa's "Souvenirs?" line at the end seems funnier after Season One of "Young Justice".

We conclude with Goliath, Elisa, Angela, and Bronx about to set off on the Avalon World Tour, with Tom warning them what's about to come. More about the World Tour tomorrow (I hope).

A LITTLE ABOUT THE SLEEPING KING: This episode fuses the two main depictions of King Arthur's survival (in those versions of his story where he's still alive). The first, and obvious one, is his being on Avalon, recovering from his wound there. But mingled with it is a second notion, which depicts Arthur as sleeping in a cave.

The cave is generally located somewhere in Britain (usually Britain, though there are one or two other locations elsewhere - including Mt. Etna in Sicily). It's magically hidden, though the general area is usually given. A few such locations include South Cadbury in Somerset, appropriately since it's one of the traditional candidates for Camelot (there's a story that, when some early archaeologists were visiting it, an old local villager asked them worriedly if they'd come to take the king away), Alderley Edge in Cheshire (which gave rise to Alan Garner's "The Weirdstone of Brisingamen"), Craig-y-Ddinas in Wales, and the Eildon Hills in Scotland.

In these accounts, Arthur is generally portrayed as surrounded by his knights. "Gargoyles" didn't take this approach here directly - not surprisingly, since it would have made things too easy for our heroes if the awakened Arthur had brought nearly the full company of the Round Table along with him. (And it fits the legend better, since nearly all of Arthur's knights are killed in the battles that end his reign, while most of the survivors go into religious retirement with Lancelot at Glastonbury and presumably have no further interest in regular knights' work.) But we get an echo of it in the depiction of the Hollow Hill; if you look closely, you can see that the inner walls contain a series of alcoves, each one of which holds a suit of armor, with a shield (presumably that knight's coat of arms) sculpted over it. And, of course, we have the two animated suits of armor guarding King Arthur's resting-place. (I'd like to know more about them, including whether they belonged to any specific knights of Arthur's court, or were forged specially for the duty of guarding the Sleeping King. Note, also, that they're iron - which meant that someone skilled at human magic must have made it to Avalon to set them up.) Certainly the fact that Arthur's underground, in the "Hollow Hill", reinforces the cave part of the story.

Most of these stories involve someone discovering the cave where Arthur is sleeping, surrounded by his knighs, waiting for the time to come when Britain needs them. (On a few occasions, he finds out when someone buying horses for the sleeping knights - identified sometimes as Merlin, though the Eildon Hills version makes him Thomas the Rhymer, a medieval Scottish bard with a reputation for links with the faerie-folk and the gift of prophecy - buys a horse from the man, and takes him to the cave to show him what he bought the horse for.) The visitor learns of a certain way in which he can awake Arthur and his knights, attempts to awaken them, but fails - often because he panics at the crucial moment and does the wrong thing - and is promptly thrown out of the cave, complete with a rebuke for his incompetence or cowardice. All of which makes Elisa's feat particularly impressive; she has done what so many others (though I doubt that the stories of their visiting the Hollow Hill actually took place in the Gargoyles Universe) failed to do, re-awakening Arthur.

(One important feature of that, by the way: Elisa is American rather than British, and her main descent is African-American and Native American, with no known British forbears. This ties in with the indications in the episode "Pendragon" that Arthur's role upon awakening involves a "larger stage" than Britain, as we'll see when we reach it; his new "Sword in the Stone" feat even takes place in Elisa's home city of New York.)


FAVORITE LINES.

ENHANCED ARCHMAGE (as he magically torments Goliath): I have waited a millennium for this moment, and it was worth the wait.


PRINCESS KATHARINE (after taking down Demona): No one threatens my eggs!


ENHANCED ARCHMAGE: I could destroy you with a word.

GOLIATH: Then why don't you?

ENHANCED ARCHMAGE: Because I'm having too much fun!


PRINCESS KATHARINE: Oh, Magus, what have you done?

MAGUS: Princess, I -

PRINCESS KATHARINE: Shh. Lie still now. We'll get you to the palace, and then - .

MAGUS: No, no, Katharine. I think I should like to stay here.

GOLIATH: I owe you a great debt, Magus.

MAGUS: You? But, I cursed your clan.

GOLIATH: You saved my children.

MAGUS: Oh, I'm so tired. I think I would like to rest.

PRINCESS KATHARINE: You cannot leave me now!

MAGUS: Never, my princess.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Dec 24, 2024 7:20:56 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

"Avalon Part 2" is very exposition heavy episode but that's the sort of thing I don't mind if the exposition is delivered in an engaging or interesting way. And David Warner does a wonderful job playing a more seasoned version of his power-mad lunatic despite the two only being moments apart from each other, and it's certainly a more entertaining double act than something like Quest of the Delta Knights.

I imagine that many of us here were introduced into the stable time through Gargoyles, both Xanatos' scheme in "Vows" and the Archmage's escape from the classic Disney Villain Death here. These sort of things strongly remind me of the plot point in Star Trek IV involving the creation of transparent aluminum. Scotty and Bones need the materials for a whale tank so they trade with an engineer by showing the possibility of transparent aluminum. Where did Scotty learn about the intricacies of its molecular chain? Probably from the guy who "discovered" it. This is tricky to do in fiction because it sets a predestination vibe going forward though I find it works better than fictional prophecies do.

But the other big part is learning the situation with the family unit in Avalon and I have to admit Goliath learning they all have names because that's how they were raised to identify each other runs so contrary to his traditional values that it becomes funny.

We also get our first look that despite playing cool, aloof and seemingly all-knowing mysterious figures, the Weird Sisters can be as temperamental as any other mortal. I think I was reacting the same way they did when the Archmage decides to devour the Grimorum, that is just disturbing.

While the second part is based heavy on exposition and getting the pieces into play it also demonstrates a crucial part of the Archmage's character and his flaw. He's someone who likes to play with his food.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Tue, Dec 24, 2024 3:19:30 pm EST from 135.180.3.149

I think another fun thing about “Avalon Part Two,” as Todd alludes to, is that it’s basically a reluctant-buddy movie…except that both of the “buddies” are the same guy, making the inevitable exasperation all the more hilarious. The enhanced Archmage is SO condescending and impatient, even though only MINUTES have gone by since he was in the same position as his cohort. It’s really a wonderful reflection of his inability to empathize, even with himself.
Craig
posted @ Tue, Dec 24, 2024 11:47:31 am EST from 69.118.30.106

Happy Christmas Eve, everyone!

As I mentioned in my review, I do think we got (alongside the exposition) some entertaining moments with the "enhanced Archmage"'s utter exasperation with his former self; they were definitely the funniest part of the episode.

CRAIG - Glad you liked my write-up on Avalon and Glastonbury. I'm hoping for another such "legendary background" piece for "Avalon Part Three"....
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Dec 24, 2024 8:10:07 am EST from 68.99.93.213

Todd > All that backstory about Avalon (and Glastonbury) was incredibly fascinating. Thanks for that.

Jurgan > I'm probably a weirdo, but I LOVE logistics and exposition...assuming that it's delivered in a believable and natural way, as it is in "Avalon Part Two" (there's nothing worse than BAD exposition). I adore complex plots where the characters have to reason things out alongside the audience. Isn't that the basic premise of the entire mystery genre? Characters just thinking and talking (I'm thinking particularly of Sherlock Holmes, Chandler, and Hammett, some of my all-time favorites, which are often just wall-to-wall exposition with the occasional fist fight to spice things up, a la the Beach Fight). As a kid (again, total weirdo), I was often much more into the logistical stuff than the action. I adore a great time travel story (of which there are precious few), so "Avalon Part Two" really hits the spot for me.
Craig
posted @ Tue, Dec 24, 2024 2:00:55 am EST from 69.118.30.106

On my most recent rewatch, I finally realized why Avalon pt 2 is kind of weak to me. It's because there's no real conflict for most of it. Archmage, Archmage +, and the Weird Sisters all want basically the same thing, we're just watching the logistics of their plan play out. It's just exposition for the sake of the audience that isn't that interesting to watch.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Dec 23, 2024 11:55:14 pm EST from 75.222.33.248

BLAISE - Thanks for your review of the Winter Special, [SPOILER] especially the part about the cats. I agree that, when our cats get out, we hope that they'll return home safely, and I'm sorry to hear that it wasn't always the case with your cats. At least the cat in the story was reunited with her human, thanks to Bronx and his new doggy friend. [/SPOILER]

Rewatched "Avalon Part Two" today.

The big element in this one is the Archmage's time loop, showing us how he became the "enhanced Archmage". While it's impressive and often chilling, it's also funny at times, thanks especially to the "enhanced Archmage"'s increasing exasperation with his earlier self - which leads to some hilarious moments. The original Archmage even admits that he hadn't thought out what he was going to do with the Three Keys to Power when he got them, and has to be given the idea of taking over the world.

One of the biggest moments in this sequence is the Archmage eating the Grimorum Arcanorum. I remember finding that an eye-opener, the first time I saw it; the Grimorum had been in the series from the start, and even though it was seldom used, it had appeared often enough (complete with the gargoyles taking care to bring it along with them when they moved out of the castle in "Enter Macbeth") that its removal felt - well, almost as if an episode of "Adventures of the Gummi Bears" had written out the Great Book of Gummi. (They did have it burnt up in one episode, I recall, but it was magically restored at the end of the episode; here, though technically that doesn't happen until "Avalon Part Three", the Grimorum's gone for good.)

One element that also struck me (and continues to strike me) about the time loop is the Archmage seemingly possessing information in a "How does he know that?" manner - such as that the modern world's become run by science and technology rather than by magic. We know that there was a scene where the two Archmages visited Manhattan during the present-day events of "City of Stone", but it got caught out for lack of time. The "enhanced Archmage" might have worked it out from Demona and Macbeth's weaponry, but I can't help wondering if it's really all part of the time loop, that he's repeating what he heard himself say. (This time around, I also noticed that he's aware that Goliath's out there in the modern world for the denizens of Avalon to send for - most likely another result of the time loop.)

Of course, this is also where Goliath, Elisa, and Bronx arrive on Avalon and meet the eggs, including Angela (also Gabriel, Boudicca, and - an extra at this point - Ophelia). Angela and Gabriel's names form a nice testimony to how much Princess Katharine and the Magus's perspective on gargoyles has changed since their time in Castle Wyvern - now the gargoyles are being named after angels rather than hostile giants. Plus we get the hint about Angela's biological parentage, and Goliath telling both Elisa and the audience about communal parentage as "the Gargoyle Way". (We got a hint of it all the way back in "Awakening Part One", when Brooklyn referred to the other gargoyles in the Wyvern clan as "our brothers and sisters".)

One thing that occurred to me this time around is that, while the Grimorum's barred from Avalon, thanks to being a work of human magic, it also contains a spell to grant access to Avalon. Something which raises some questions about the circumstances under which that spell was composed, given that the composer couldn't bring the very source of the spell with them to Avalon (unless they didn't realize it when they were composing it).

The Archmage, during the famous "beat up a beach" fight, displays some of his warped sense of humor when the sand-sculpture of him, at the end of that encounter, sprouts gargoyle-style wings and turns to stone.

One neat little touch - the captions during the "flashback sequence" start off with the familiar "Scotland - 975 A.D." type captions, but start changing in the latter half to things like "Yesterday" and "Six Hours Ago", which gave a rather chilling atmosphere.

One other element of this episode that immediately grabbed my attention, the first time I saw it, was the mentions of the "Sleeping King". Since to me, the thing Avalon is most famous for is being King Arthur's resting-place, I'd started expecting some mention of that as soon as Avalon was introduced into the series in "Avalon Part One", and when they began speaking of the "Sleeping King", I felt a sense of eagerness thrill through me. Especially when Elisa asks about him....

A LITTLE ABOUT AVALON: This should have gone in the review of Part One, but I forgot to include it. I hope that the delay to Part Two isn't too big an oversight.

Avalon goes back to the first start-to-finish account of King Arthur's story (at least, the first surviving start-to-finish account), "The History of the Kings of Britain" by Geoffrey of Monmouth. Geoffrey mentioned it twice. The first time, he said that King Arthur's sword Caliburn (better known to us as Excalibur) was forged on the island of Avalon. The second time was when he said that King Arthur was borne there after being morally wounded in the final battle with Mordred. That was all he said about it then, but he later wrote a sort of sequel called "The Life of Merlin", mostly based on the earlier notion of Merlin as a mad hermit with prophetic abilities (see my essay on Merlin from my review of "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time" some weeks back for further information). In it, Geoffrey has the Welsh bard Taliesin, in a conversation with Merlin, recall taking Arthur to Avalon after his final battle, calling it the "Isle of Apples" (and the name "Avalon" does seem to be related to "apple" - for that matter, we'll see an apple orchard there in "Avalon Part Three" where King Arthur and Macbeth do battle) and describing it as filled with wonders, including all manner of crops that grow by themselves without needing tending from farmers, presided over by nine magical sisters (the chief of whom is Morgan le Fay, portrayed here in a far more pleasant light than the later, more familiar versions of her as a villainess).

Most accounts of Arthur's story after that followed the notion of Avalon being a magical island, although there were a few versions that offered a different interpretation. This seems to have come about from an event in 1190 when the monks at Glastonbury Abbey, in the middle of repairs from a fire that had ravaged the monastery a few years before, came upon a grave that they believed to be King Arthur's on the monastery grounds. The grave was reportedly marked by a cross which stated that King Arthur was laid to rest here on the "isle of Avalon", which suggested that Avalon was just another name for Glastonbury (which was, during the early Middle Ages, in such a marshy region that it could have been interpreted as an island), where Arthur died and was buried. (The cross also reportedly stated that Arthur was buried here with his "second wife" Guinevere - without explaining the "second wife" part or who the first wife was.) Some accounts of Arthur's story after that took an approach of "Avalon was just another name for Glastonbury, where Arthur died like anybody else"; Sir Thomas Malory mentioned both versions, though indicating that he leaned towards "it was really Glastonbury". (In Malory, Lancelot is depicted as retiring to Glastonbury after the wars that ended King Arthur's reign and spending the last few years of his life as a holy hermit, dying there. A few writers - including Roger Lancelyn Green, who was one of Greg Weisman's chief sources for the Arthurian legend - suggested that it was really Lancelot whose grave the monks had found, rather than Arthur.) So far, there's been no mention of Glastonbury in "Gargoyles" (though if the "Pendragon" spin-off had been made, I suspect that Glastonbury would have shown up at some point, particularly once Arthur started seeking the Holy Grail, which has been given ties to Glastonbury). Obviously, in the Gargoyles Universe, Avalon and Glastonbury are not identical - but people could have reached Avalon from the waters surrounding Glastonbury in early medieval times or before, which could have helped give rise to the identification.

Tennyson definitely followed the "magical island" approach towards Avalon in his "Idylls of the King", where Arthur, as he's being borne away in the boat, describe it as "the island-valley of Avilion [sic]; Where falls not hail, or rain, or any snow,/ Nor ever wind blows loudly; but it lies/ Deep-meadow'd, happy, fair with orchard lawns/ And bowery hollows crown'd with summer sea". (Note that this description matches Angela's statement that it was always summer on Avalon. In Celtic mythology, there are often marvelous lands similar to Avalon known by such names as "the Summer Country" or the "Region of the Summer Stars", which matches this element as well.)

While Avalon is largely a feature of Arthurian "mythology", J. R. R. Tolkien incorporated it in his "legendarium" (as he called his stories about Middle-earth), when he named an Elven port in the Undying Lands "Avallone".

There seems to have been at least one work connecting Avalon to Oberon before "Gargoyles", a medieval romance called "Huon of Bordeaux". Huon is one of Charlemagne's paladins, who makes friends with Oberon; Oberon becomes so fond of him that he makes Huon his successor to the rule of Avalon - which King Arthur initially protests, until Huon offers a compromise where they'll be joint-rulers after Oberon's passing. I'll have more to say about this when I get to "Ill Met By Moonlight". When I was a boy, I read a book variously called "Grey Magic" or "Steel Magic" by Andre Norton about three modern-day children who stumble into Avalon, just as it's facing a major attack by an army of evil magical creatures; Avalon was here portrayed, as in Huon's tale, as being jointly ruled over by King Arthur and Huon. (The children are asked to recover three magical objects vital to Avalon's defense - though a different set of three, obviously, than the Archmage assembled - Excalibur, Merlin's ring, and an enchanted horn belonging to Huon. The book also made use of the inhabitants of Avalon, both good and evil, being vulnerable to iron.)

FAVORITE LINES.

THE ARCHMAGE: There is no hope for you under the heavens. I'm insulted you thought otherwise.

GOLIATH: Don't be too insulted.


ENHANCED ARCHMAGE #1: Isn't it time for you to go?

ENHANCED ARCHMAGE #2: I was just about to.

ENHANCED ARCHMAGE #1: Are you certain you know what to do?

ENHANCED ARCHMAGE #2: I should. I've watched you do it.


ENHANCED ARCHMAGE (to his previous self, whom he's just rescued): Oh, stop whimpering and show some dignity, can't you?


ARCHMAGE: Then why have you brought me here?

ENHANCED ARCHMAGE: I *could* put you back where I found you.

ARCHMAGE: No, no.


ARCHMAGE: I understand. We're here to take the Grimorum from him.

ENHANCED ARCHMAGE: If you don't know, don't guess!


ENHANCED ARCHMAGE: It will take some time.

LUNA: What is time to an immortal?


ARCHMAGE: Where are we now?

ENHANCED ARCHMAGE: For the last time, it's "when", not "where". Try to keep up.


ENHANCED ARCHMAGE: We'll meet again at the watery door to Avalon in 975 years.

ARCHMAGE: 975 years?

{The "enhanced Archmage" immediately glowers at him.}


ARCHMAGE: You mean, we went to all that trouble to get the Grimorum, and now I can't even take it in with me? What am I supposed to do, eat it?

ENHANCED ARCHMAGE: You *are* learning.


ENHANCED ARCHMAGE: Everything is going according to my plan. As it did, as it must, as it always will.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Dec 23, 2024 8:05:33 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

Happy belated Solstice and a happy Festivus for the rest of us d:
Phoenician
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."
posted @ Mon, Dec 23, 2024 7:50:05 pm EST from 68.2.64.232

Second!

Great thoughts, Blaise! Thanks for sharing.
Matt
"Human problems become gargoyle problems..."
posted @ Mon, Dec 23, 2024 11:45:08 am EST from 47.233.90.133

****Blaise appears in a small explosion of red, green and white sparks.****
FIRST!

Happy Holidays, folks! I hope everyone has the best week possible, whatever they may celebrate. For right now, though:


WINTER SPECIAL: [SPOILER] OR JUST “BRONX” [/SPOILER]> So from interviews and the “Voices From the Eyrie” podcast, I know that this story was a pitch from Nate Crosby and he co-wrote this. Also from the same sources, I gather that Nate is a big Bronx fan and was looking forward to our good boi appearing in the comic. Of course, the current stories being what they are, Bronx and his fellow beast Fu-dog have been largely sidelined, save for being featured in “Trick-Or-Treat” and [SPOILER] being tranquilized off-panel in “Queen of All She Surveys” [/SPOILER]. With all that happening, I now have a vision of Nate ala MCU’s Thanos in one of the credits stingers of “Age of Ultron” saying, “Fine, I’ll do it myself.”

[SPOILER] We begin with several parallel panels progressively showing the transition not from day to night (that’s on the next page), but from clear and crowded to snowy and empty. Plenty has been said about how magical the first snow can feel. The hush and unmarked beauty of the landscape. I managed to experience that the one winter I spent in Rhode Island when it snowed (and technically earlier in Oregon, but I was so young I only have flashes of that). And the way it kind of forces things to stop or at least slow down. We see that on display here, both with the streets emptying in “the city that never sleeps,” and with the activities of the clan once they wake up.

The focus is on Bronx, of course, as he notices the snow and begins scratching...before he’s pelted by a snowball. From the looks of things, I would guess Broadway was the first to throw (instead of Brooklyn, as has been suggested), but that he missed his target and hit Bronx instead. After which, naturally, his brothers retaliate. Much has already been said about Brooklyn here and how the levity doesn’t seem natural for someone whose child has been snatched (the same could be said for the whole clan since it was made clear Egwardo is to be raised as the child of them all). However, I had some thoughts about this:
1) This isn’t the next night, but after some time has passed. Not as much as I would have thought (Greg Weisman clarified that this took place in December), but still enough time to, for lack of a better word, adjust to the new reality.
2) See above about what feelings a virgin winter wonderland can engender.
3) I don’t know if it snowed in “Gargoyles” Manhattan between Brooklyn’s return from the TimeDance and now, so this may be Brooklyn’s first snow back with the clan. He might have promised himself a snowball fight with his brothers when he got back.
4) Gnash is here, too, and participating in the snowball fight. I think Brooklyn is more often than not the “fun dad” kind of parent, and probably wants to make sure the kid that’s still here isn’t subjected to just endless depression.
5) Connected to that, I feel like this is a rekindling of hope. A reminder that, even in a world where a happiness has been stolen, you can still find some joy.
6) Look at Brooklyn when he’s sleeping in stone. He’s not striking a pose (like Goliath) and he’s certainly not smiling. He looks brooding. I don’t think his lost family is far from his mind. This snowball fight is (as it was called in the podcast) a breath.

Anyway, a looming shadow and quiet growl from Goliath is enough to get the younger clan members (and Brooklyn) to end the impromptu battle and get back to business (but note that Goliath, the most stoic of the clan, isn’t above a small smile here). You better believe this isn’t just regular patrolling but also searching. And the five faces with smiles at the bottom of the page reinforces my “rekindling of hope” feeling.
The majority of the clan takes off into the night, including Katana (who, as Weisman points out in the podcast, did not take part in the snowball fight). Most of the clan seems to already have their eyes glowing, too (most noticeably with Angela), though the TimeDancer family remain clear-eyed. Hudson has elected to remain behind with the beasts.
Slight digression here: before “Queen of All She Surveys” came out, I had read an interview about this issue where Nate had mentioned that “all the winged” clan members went out on patrol, while Hudson and Fu-Dog remained behind, so I had already known that this story would be set after “Quest” and that Hudson would be alive, but I had wondered if this phrasing meant that he had maybe lost his wings in the final issue. That didn’t happen, but we still got quite the gut punch.
Anyway, after a proud look, Hudson retires to the old TV room to watch hockey (Celebrity, most likely) and is joined by Fu-Dog who, near as I can figure, is a bit older than Bronx (not to the point of being a senior citizen, though). I guess after so many years of jumping through time, staying in one place and getting to rest is a novelty.
No sign of Coldfire. Since she’s not tied down by the daytime anymore, she might be conducting her own searches...

Bronx, though, is ready to go out on the town. We actually see how he gets down from the Eyrie Building: he just climbs his way down, making a jump to the snow-covered ground when he feels comfortable enough to do so. And after thoroughly enjoying himself in the snow (while being observed by a shadowy figure with pointy ears...), Bronx makes his way over a car (I feel sorry for that vehicle’s owner), leaps up a wall and perches on top of a lamppost. In addition to being impressed that such a flimsy looking lamppost is able to support Bronx’s weight, I like the physicality of these scenes because they illustrate something Weisman has said in the past but that doesn’t really get shown: Bronx is *not* a dog. There is certainly much that is canine about him, but the way he scales surfaces, his movements here, and the way he’s perching on that lamppost strike me as more feline. I feel like this helps to distinguish him from regular dogs.

On that note, while Bronx is perched up there catching snowflakes on his tongue, the aforementioned shadowy figure with pointy ears makes its presence known...it’s BATMA--no, no it’s a bull terrier dog who is not named on page (because there’s no real dialogue here), but is named Lance after his real-life inspiration (check the GargWiki). And he makes his presence known by barking up a storm at Bronx. This is true for terrier dogs (my family had one for about nine years when I was younger), but as is always the case with me and these sorts of scenarios, I find myself wondering what the actual “dialogue” might be. It amuses me to think that Lance is barking the equivalent of “HEY! Get down from there! You’re gonna bend that thing!” Of course, he shuts up for a moment when Bronx jumps down and makes it very obvious just how much bigger the beast is. Still, before there’s a chance for anything more than a quizzically raised doggie eyebrow, both critters are distracted by a young woman trudging through the snow with a pet carrier and a sad expression. The images show that she’s out looking for her cat. I could make a crack about her being desperate enough to call for a pet that is notorious for not coming when called...but I have been in this position before. Not searching a city in the snow for lost cats, no, but my family had indoor-outdoor cats and those can lead to tragedy, especially in a more rural area with coyotes. Hell, my current urban area has coyotes (I’m very near a spot of “urban wilderness”). So, I’ve shed tears like this woman here, but I’m sad to say the endings to my stories are not as happy as this one. There’s a reason that when I got my own cat, she was indoor-only. That’s a long way of saying that this bit here hit me in “the feels.”

But as the woman moves on, she apparently drops a ball of yarn that her cat likes. Bronx and Lance go over and sniff the thing, but while Lance is more interested in just the smells he’s getting, Bronx is already attempting to track this cat. This is another way that Bronx is different from your regular dog: intelligence. Bronx is canny enough to grok that this woman has lost a member of her clan (as it were), and he wants to help her. And his sense of smell is so good that, even with all this snow, he’s able to pick out the cat’s sent and is off on the trail. Oh, and Lance is coming along, too, because he’s just found a new...”friend?” Well, one thing’s for sure: Lance is the kind of being who has a lot to talk about and will tell you *every single thing* on their mind. At least, that’s how I interpret his endless string of “gark”s. We get a couple of double-page spreads here showing Bronx following the trail and entering Central Park, and I will admit for a minute there I wasn’t sure whether I was looking at the Park or at some form of inland sea! The streets and buildings along one of the sides could almost look like docks and warehouses. (I also love the little string of “gark”s showing where our critters are in the Park.)

Eventually, Lance (finally) runs out of things to “gark” about for a moment and Bronx runs out of trail and needs to stop to recall the scent of the yarn ball. He’s able to get back on the trail again, though, and they make their way through the Park.

I suppose now’s as good a time as any to talk about the art. While I have had quibbles here and there (characters looking “off,” etc.), I have been loving the work of the artists we have had for the Dynamite run overall. Kambadais did a good job with “Here in Manhattan,” and I am glad to see him return. He was always very good with expressions, and in a dialogue-free story such as this one that is a big strength. His illustrations of the various set pieces in the snow are great, too, with the bridge, the Alice in Wonderland statues and the bit of Bronx perching at the top of Belvedere Castle for a better view (or sniff, as the case may be). I recall being surprised in the previous issue that we had no double page spreads, but here we get at least four! I presume that the increased page count (seriously, we had 28 pages here) allowed for this.

While on the search, Lance (who up until now has been playing in the snow occasionally) apparently loses his footing and plunges headfirst into a snowbank. Bronx just lifts him out by the leg and tosses the terrier onto the beast’s back (I’m guessing Bronx has decided this will just be simpler and faster than waiting for him to catch up). However, now that he no longer needs to waste breath on locomotion, Lance returns to his endless babble. I find myself now thinking of Lance as someone like Perrito from “Puss in Boots: The Last Wish.” Eventually though, they near a tunnel that puts me in mind of where Elisa and Goliath stopped in “Awakening: Part Four” (don’t know if it’s the same place, but it looks like it to me), and Bronx must sense something because he finally tells Lance to shut up for a second. Sure enough, they’ve found the cat! Bronx is happy, and so is Lance (who apparently has no beef with cats). For her part, the cat is pretty brave for not bolting at the sight of these (from a cat’s point of view) potential predators. Maybe she can sense something helpful from Bronx, because she actually leads him to her kittens!
ME (ala Bender in “Futurama”): Saw it comin’.
(Okay, maybe not from the beginning, but as soon as she turned away from Bronx--and I love they way his expression changes there--I knew what was going to be revealed.)
Well, Bronx is surprised but he is determined to bring this cat (and now her kittens) back to their clan (that young woman). I’m going to guess the torn green shirt was already the bed being used by the kittens and Bronx somehow got that on his back (or maybe the cat did it). And Lance not only has no beef with cats but seems to even like this one.

There is a moment where Bronx seems to lose his footing a bit and the animals on his back are briefly airborne (with rather comical positions from the kittens), but they make it out of the park safely and back to the ball of yarn. I don’t know if Bronx expected to wait for the woman to come back or if he thought he could track her from there, but either way she is within the vicinity. I also don’t know if she’s been out all night, but my heart goes out to her for still looking even when she’s probably been thinking it’s hopeless. Well, Lance is the one to get her attention as Bronx has pulled a bit of a Batman himself and vanished (I guess he internalized hiding over the past few years), leaving the young woman (whom the GargWiki tells me is named Julie Gavmore) to reunite with her cat (named Emmy), meet the kittens for the first time (their names are Bigtime and Iggy...ah, Greg’s old pets...), and make the acquaintance of Lance, who is apparently on his way to having a family now if he didn’t already have one. The joy on the woman’s face throughout these panels is refreshing and uplifting.

Bronx makes his way back home up the side of the Eyrie building. I love the encounter with Fu-Dog at the top. I like to imagine their “discussion” was something like:
FU-DOG: “Where the heck have you been all night?”
BRONX: “Oh, just chasing a cat.”
FU-DOG: “Yeah, very funny.”

The clan makes note of Bronx’s return (with Lex giving him a pat) and they take their positions for sunrise in a bookend with the beginning (it is great to see the “ground-up” effect of the Stone Sleep coming on being illustrated in the comic). But while Goliath strikes his pose and Brooklyn resumes the brooding look, Bronx allows his face to freeze into a smile.

This is a fun and cute little tale. Very sweet and heart-warming. The last story having ended with separations for the Manhattan clan, it’s nice to see a story where another “clan” gets reunited and even grows. Given that we have a bit of a hiatus coming up, I’m glad that we’re leaving off on this note here. As much of a hook as the end of “Quest” was, it was also kind of depressing, so it’s nice we have a more uplifting coda before the wait. [/SPOILER]

Whatever other troubles life presents right now, I am glad that "Gargoyles" has come back like it has. Here's to having 25 issues of new material over the past 2 years! May we reach at least as many over the next 2!

****Blaise toasts with a steaming mug of cider before fading away into steam himself.****
Blaise
"There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes."--The Doctor
posted @ Mon, Dec 23, 2024 1:03:07 am EST from 45.48.46.39