Happy Twelfth Night, everyone!
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sun, Jan 5, 2025 8:12:03 am EST from 68.99.93.213

Matt> Besides the fact that Brooklyn (alongside the whole of the clan) had to deal with the prejudice of appearing monstrous back at Castle Wyvern there's also the point that the term "monster" is used prominently in Brooklyn-focused episodes like "Temptation" and "Metamorphosis." The former has Brooklyn thinking he had found kindred spirits with the bikers up until he was revealed to not be human at which point they attacked.

With Maggie and "Metamorphosis" there's a lot of insistence from Maggie that she's not a monster and Brooklyn insisting that none of them are. I mentioned before that there's plenty of white knighting coming from Brooklyn and even though it's from good intentions the problem is that he's unintentionally lumping her alongside of them and she's still dealing with the trauma of her transformation and inhuman treatment but also under the belief that she can go back to normal. Her rejection of their help isn't just a rejection of him but a reminder that he and the gargoyles don't fit into what the modern world calls "normal."

I think morrand has probably the best take on Brooklyn's position in the clan and feelings of inadequacy. Though I do wonder about any potential language barrier. It's not the sort of thing that came up in the World Tour and back in the day I chalked it up as Avalon's magic helping out. No reason the Phoenix Gate couldn't do something similar.

On the topic of monsters, there's the latest episode. It's an interesting touch to have the sweetest member of our heroes come face-to-face with one of the vilest of the villains, and that he would be the one to confirm the connection between Angela and Goliath. I think that this was ultimately necessary for Angela's development, her belief in gargoyle/human cooperation is admirable but it's also one that needed to be tested. In this case against a foe who has no problem exploiting anything sentient or otherwise. While Sevarius is certainly right about the saccharine levels, it is admirable that Angela could not only hold on to her kind attitude but still hold on to her idealistic beliefs despite people like Sevarius.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Fri, Jan 3, 2025 8:09:14 pm EST from 135.180.3.149

Rewatched "Monsters" today.

This episode had an appealing idea: the gargoyles are Scottish "monsters", and the most famous monster in all of Scotland is the Loch Ness Monster. So, once you've gotten a few of the gargoyles out of Manhattan, why not have them meet Nessie? The drawback, of course, was the animation: it's one of the weaker examples, which explains a lot about why this episode isn't all that popular.

One good feature in it is Sevarius being his usual "mad scientist" self; he certainly got the best lines in it (which are all the more fun because of how Tim Curry delivers them). (We also see the Xanatos Commandos again - the last time for most of them. Bruno alone survives. I assume that the blonde female member - the one member of the group aside from Bruno who stood out from the rest - was a casualty, though I didn't spot her in the submarine scenes near the end.)

This episode probably helps bring to the fore Angela's sweetness, the way she so quickly makes friends with Nessie - and confirms what the audience had probably suspected as far back as "Avalon Part Two": she's Goliath's biological daughter. (I was probably spoiled all the more on that since, a few weeks before Season Two premiered, I came across a magazine article about it which included a mention of Goliath having a biological daughter in it.) Which will have major consequences....

The episode does the familiar "plesiosaur-style" design for the Loch Ness Monster, and also has the Nessies, after some initial fearsome shots, turn out to be friendly - not surprising, since Nessie does have a "much-loved monster" reputation. (We also know, though it's still canon-in-training, that there's a clan in Loch Ness that protects the monsters (so Sevarius was half-right), and therefore they'd be receptive to gargoyles.)

Sevarius's "Nessie-submarine" evokes "20,000 Leagues Under the Sea" for me, though I don't know if that was an actual influence.

I remember wondering how Matt's message tape got filled up, and not-too-seriously speculated that he'd been getting a lot of phone calls from the Gargoyles Universe version of the Lone Gunmen.

Elisa pokes a bit of fun at Disney (at least, I assume that's what it was intended as) when she tells Goliath and Angela "theme parks do this kind of thing five times a day". (And Brendan and Margot are on board the tour boat. They just can't stay away from the weirdness.)

At the end, when Elisa's talking about how some legends need to stay that way, I can't help wondering whether she was only talking about Nessie.

FAVORITE LINES.

GOLIATH: This is not Manhattan.

ELISA: Goliath's right. It's too quiet, and the water's way too clean.


BRUNO: So her name is Angela.

SEVARIUS: If it gets any more saccharine in there, I'm going to put a finger down my throat.


SEVARIUS: Oh, I know, I know, how aggravating it must be to wake up in chains first thing in the evening.


SEVARIUS: Thank Heaven for little girls - and DNA markers.


SEVARIUS (to Angela): You are his very own flesh and stone.


GOLIATH: Sevarius!

SEVARIUS: That's *Doctor* Sevarius to you.


SEVARIUS: They say a man's home is his castle, and what fun would a castle be without her dungeon?


SEVARIUS: Monster love!


ELISA: Some creatures in this world are meant to remain legends.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Jan 3, 2025 7:39:20 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

Without denying Craig's point, I wouldn't be so sure that insecurity and self-absorption are always that firmly linked, at least not in that way, just because there's not only one kind of self-absorption. Yes, that kind of insecurity does require a level of self-focus that isn’t healthy either, but the kind of insecurity that leads to the need to prove your own value doesn't translate into entitlement every time: that's definitely one endpoint for it, but it can just as easily translate into a persistent sense of inadequacy, and I read that as more the path Brooklyn was headed down. If he feels like he is not really a part of his own clan, and has no way to become a part of it, that's quite different from feeling entitled to demand companionship on his own terms, which is probably the gentlest way to describe an abusive relationship.

Not to say he could not have ended up there eventually. For all we know, being isolated on the Timedance could have pushed him further into that direction, at least initially, as he was grappling for something solid to hold on to. To that extent, his repeated heartbreaks are important for building his character: if he can keep his moral center despite them, that's an important strength to show him having. I don't know that they could be dispensed with unless he were a completely different character from the start.

Matthew the Fedora Guy wrote, "We still don't know much about how he and Katana ended up together or to what extent their 'Bendick and Beatrice' relationship was like. But a part of me thinks that a big part of Brooklyn's growth was the realization that it's not just attraction to her but genuine love on his part." There would also be a language barrier (I guess), and perhaps that was at least part of what catalyzed his shift in attitude. Braggadocio gets a lot harder when nobody around you can understand your bragging, and possibly that gave him a chance (and motive) to slow down a bit, try to understand Katana, and build that real relationship.
morrand - [morrand276 at gmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, Jan 3, 2025 10:48:50 am EST from 108.69.72.60

Matthew> When is it made clear that Brooklyn is insecure about his appearance? I've never felt that was the case.
Matt
"Human problems become gargoyle problems..."
posted @ Fri, Jan 3, 2025 10:25:03 am EST from 204.184.178.1

I definitely agree that Brooklyn's behavior is partially motivated by a level of insecurity underlying his surface-level bravado and confidence. But insecurity is itself another form of self-absorption (I say that as someone who's learned this the hard way through a bunch of therapy), since the focus is still on what one can (or can't) get from others. Again, Brooklyn is 18, so he really can't be faulted too deeply for being more focused on his own needs in certain moments. It is worth noting that insecurity is VERY frequently a major component in the mindsets of men who mistreat women (just as most bullies are deeply insecure at their core--a certain president-elect comes immediately to mind). Not to say that Brooklyn is anywhere near that level, but just to point out that insecurity and entitlement are often two sides of the same coin, as contradictory as that may seem.

The Maggie situation certainly is complicated, since as you say, Maggie IS actually in trouble in "Metamorphosis"...but I think the writing makes pretty clear that Brooklyn isn't properly acknowledging Maggie as an autonomous person, but rather is mostly focusing on making her see HIM a certain way: kind, heroic, a potential mate. That's not to say that his motivations don't have ANY noble element--of course he wants to save and protect her for good reasons as well--but I would definitely call his behavior in that episode fairly entitled. Broadway isn't the only one who makes remarks questioning Brooklyn's motives and judgment: Goliath also backs Broadway up, pointing out that Brooklyn doesn't know anything about Maggie (and, honestly, it doesn't seem like he's terribly interested in learning about her or what she wants, since he probably knows deep down he wouldn't like the answers). She's more an object to be saved, and then won.

It's interesting to note that both "Metamorphosis" and "The Cage" are Brynne/Lydia episodes. I think it's almost inevitable that their life experiences probably gave them a slightly different perspective on the Brooklyn-Maggie dynamic than some of the male writers probably would have brought. It would be interesting to hear either of them--but particularly Brynne, who seems pretty outspoken about feminist components of the show in particular--discuss how they viewed Brooklyn (and Maggie) when writing those episodes.
Craig
posted @ Fri, Jan 3, 2025 8:59:17 am EST from 69.118.30.106

I wouldn't necessarily characterize Brooklyn's interest as being entitled or even something that falls under toxic masculinity, rather it's a combination of bad decisions and his own insecurities.

With Maggie there was a lot of problems from the get-go, she wasn't in a good place mentally or emotionally and Brooklyn wasn't able to see the traumatic experience she went through and was still going through. It was almost certainly a bit of white knighting on his part but I'd say that some of the big factors for his bad decisions were partly because he felt a misplaced sense of kinship, a desire to prove Broadway's snide remarks wrong (he also had some maturing to do), and because he wanted to prove Maggie's comments about them being "Monsters" wrong. He wasn't wrong that Maggie needed help (I remember writing about that problem with pride and the refusal to accept help among the homeless) but Maggie couldn't heal from her trauma staying with the gargoyles anymore than she could living under Xanatos' thumb. The whole situation was a mess and Brooklyn's failure to help weighed as heavily on him as the rejection.

Angela's an interesting complication, her arrival was a point of hope for the clan and the World Tour Arc was a big revelation that they weren't alone in the world either. But at the same time her presence unintentionally created a wedge within the Trio. Yes, she has plenty of sisters also living in Avalon and there are other clans across the world, but it's not like Avalon is someplace that's easy to get to and at that period of time a gargoyle can't just board a plane to try and meet up with other members of the species in some other country. Angela however is there and those hormones and renewed sense of hope gets all three of them to behave like idiots until Angela puts her foot down. A combination of maturity on Broadway's part and magical shenanigans helped him and Angela become a couple and by that time I'd say Lex was starting his own journey which didn't include pursuing Angela, leaving Brooklyn the one who has still feel the sting of rejection again. Having to stay close to someone you were interested in has to sting even more.

Delilah, that's just bad luck. There's no other way to put it.

It's not something that's focused on a lot, but it's made clear beneath his "cool" persona Brooklyn has been insecure about his appearance since the days of Castle Wyvern and is a lonely figure that only got worse as time went on. This has been a headcanon for me for some time and I hope to see more of the TimeDancer Arc in the future, but I believe that at some point in his time travels, Brooklyn basically gave up on the idea that he'd ever find someone. Maybe it was after another rejection involving the Xanadu Clan, especially if it involved the fact that he would have to leave for another time and place or maybe because his constant travels meant he didn't think he'd ever be able to settle down properly, that he'd just keep bouncing around the timestream until the day he died.

We still don't know much about how he and Katana ended up together or to what extent their "Bendick and Beatrice" relationship was like. But a part of me thinks that a big part of Brooklyn's growth was the realization that it's not just attraction to her but genuine love on his part. And that his time in Ishimura wasn't just to solve whatever situation or conflict and then he'd be whisked off to some other era, but it was to develop a relationship with Katana to the point where she'd be willing to leave her home and time for him. And that's not the kind of thing he'd take lightly so I feel he'd be more than a little overwhelmed by the fact that he wasn't alone anymore.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Thu, Jan 2, 2025 5:48:27 pm EST from 135.180.3.149

Matt > It does make me wonder whether Brooklyn was equally driven to find a mate back in the Wyvern days. Was he rejected multiple times back then too? Or was it not something that he really worried about until the near-extinction of the species birthed a kind of desperation in him?
Craig
posted @ Thu, Jan 2, 2025 10:43:31 am EST from 69.118.30.106

I strongly echo Craig's thoughts re: Brooklyn. But don't forget Delilah! He had at least three rejections and all hurt in their way. Maggie was the first and the first always hurts. Angela was the second and an actual gargoyle this time, so that stings. Then Delilah who instead chose Brooklyn's clone! Yowch.

I don't think Greg ever said he regretted Brooklyn's path in this matter. If anything, he double downed on it in the comics with Delilah. And honestly, I can see him doing this again before finally meeting Katana. Perhaps in the Xanadu Clan or something. I want him to interact with a gargoyle who totally knows of his interest and who likes him, but knows she isn't for him. Perhaps she didn't want to accompany him on the Time Dance and leave her clan or something. That's a new kind of rejection for Brooklyn. It looks like it could work, but the two are on different paths. I've been there. I'd like him to get to a point where he kind of gives up on love when he meets Katana and perhaps initially sees her as anything but a potential romantic partner. And then her choice to be with him and go with him is super impactful.
Matt
"Human problems become gargoyle problems..."
posted @ Thu, Jan 2, 2025 10:25:30 am EST from 47.233.90.133

Thanks for the comments, Matthew. I've noted that, when we see the Labyrinth in the "Gargoyles" comics again, the "from outcasts to protectors" element is continuing; Al has become Talon's right-hand man in looking after the Labyrinth and its people. I thought that was a nice touch.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Jan 2, 2025 8:20:23 am EST from 68.99.93.213

Vis a vis Brooklyn's heartbreaks: I think having him get rejected a few times was important to his maturing process, and was also a pretty ahead-of-its-time aspect of the show. Most 1990s shows (for both kids and adults) were still very much geared toward male wish-fulfillment, and if a pretty woman showed up in the show, the hero would almost inevitably end up with her (the old cliche of the hero "getting the girl," as if a woman is something to be possessed). I enjoy the subversion of that trope, with the cool sexy male gargoyle being repeatedly rejected. There's an entitlement to Brooklyn's pursuits of Maggie and Angela (and his subsequent moping upon rejection), as if any woman with wings that he meets SHOULD reciprocate his feelings, and he's somehow been cheated when that isn't the case. It's a pretty accurate depiction of "toxic masculinity" before we really talked much about such a thing as a society. Of course, Brooklyn is biologically 18, so we don't judge him too harshly. The important thing is that you grow out of that phase, as he has. But I think the rejections were an important part of giving him the perspective to become less self-absorbed and more attuned to respecting others' feelings.
Craig
posted @ Thu, Jan 2, 2025 3:06:47 am EST from 69.118.30.106

A happy New Year, everyone. In-spite of...everything, let's try and make it a good one.

For starters, thank you Todd for your constant feedback over my poem. Poetry often comes easy to me but the subject I chose wore me down quite a bit. Indeed, thank you all for your critiques and encouragement.

"Kingdom" is an interesting episode, we don't get many involving the Manhattan Clan while Goliath and company are away but this does confirm that the city is in good hands...claws, whatever. Todd lay out an important point about the need for someone to step up in leadership both with Talon in the Labyrinth and Brooklyn for the clan. Without a strong hand both taking the lead and abiding by their principles, Fang was able to extort the very people the Mutates had sworn to protect. And without Brooklyn stepping up the clan would remain rudderless and unsure of what they're supposed to do. One detail that's pretty ingenious (and one that's been close to me as of late) is that the Labyrinth has become a safe haven for New York's homeless population, the outcasts now have protectors of their own and fittingly most of them were outcasts as well.

The last thing is that this the first of Brooklyn's heartbreaks over the series, it was made pretty clear back in "The Cage" that he and Maggie weren't going to be a thing but that still doesn't mean the sting isn't there. Greg mentioned that one of his regrets in the series was jerking Brooklyn around romantically for so long. I can imagine that in a revamped series we'd not only get a better version of the World Tour Arc but maybe the poor gargoyle wouldn't get his heart stomped on as much.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Thu, Jan 2, 2025 2:22:53 am EST from 135.180.3.149

Oh, and I was also a bit struck by the French title. It evokes "Angels in the Night" as well as Goliath's old name for Demona, but the latter couldn't have been an influence, since you mentioned that the book was published in April 1996, almost a year before that episode of the Goliath Chronicles (or any episodes of the Goliath Chronicles) first aired. The titles are most likely cousins, therefore, both derived from "my angel of the night".
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Jan 1, 2025 8:28:46 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

CRAIG - Thanks for your report on the French comic-book adaptation of "Awakening". One change that you mentioned surprised me; the opening with the fall of the Roman Empire. Yes, it's a standard way of talking about the Dark Ages, but given that the Viking attack of Castle Wyvern was five centuries later, it still feels like an astonishingly early beginning. (It also seems to give the impression that Scotland was part of the Roman Empire, which it wasn't.)

I also found the time-stamps interesting: of course, they entered "Gargoyles" on a more official level in the Stone of Destiny story.

It's obviously no substitute for the original "Awakening", but does seem like an interesting adaptation (and the way it handled Goliath rescuing Elisa rather than Demona struck me as well-done).
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Jan 1, 2025 7:46:22 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

Here's wishing a happy new year to everyone here (and everyone who should be here and isn't, for whatever reason).

My comic shop finally came through with the Winter Special yesterday: not the cover I had ordered, but at this point you take what you can, and it made a fine New Year's / birthday present for myself to open today.
morrand - [morrand276 at gmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Jan 1, 2025 2:30:44 pm EST from 108.69.72.60

Happy 2025! Fingers crossed for many new Gargoyles comic stories once things eventually get rolling again.

Speaking of comics, I did receive the French comic book adaptation of "Awakening" that I'd mentioned ordering a few weeks ago. This was released in April 1996, from a publisher called Club Dargaud, as part of their "Hors Collection." I knew that it was an album-style book (i.e., a prestige format), but it's actually much nicer than I was expecting: a sturdy 11.75" x 9" hardcover book, a format more associated with children's storybooks than comics. Other books published in this same series were a Donald Duck/Uncle Scrooge comic entitled 'Adventures in EuroDisney,' adaptations of 'The Return of Jafar' and 'Aladdin and the King of Thieves,' and two more Donald Duck books: 'Happy Anniversary Donald' and 'The Great Wrath of Donald.'

The Gargoyles adaptation is entitled 'Les Anges de la Nuit' ("Angels of the Night"), and it was subsequently translated into Spanish, Italian, and German (but not yet English). The script is by Régis Maine (who also wrote several French comic adaptations of Disney features, as well as original stories for TaleSpin, DuckTales, Darkwing Duck, and Goof Troop that were published in similar prestige "Club" formats, some of which have recently been reprinted in English for the first time by Fantagraphics). Unfortunately, Michael Reaves doesn't receive credit for the original teleplay. It's illustrated by Jesus Redondo, a Spanish artist who did some 1990s work for Marvel, and did a good amount of work for U.K. publications in the 1980s, including collaborating with both Alan Moore and Steve Moore on various pieces for the seminal anthology '2000 A.D.'

Here's the page for the story on I.N.D.U.C.K.S., the exhaustive fan-curated online index of Disney comics: https://inducks.org/story.php?c=E+GN+96-04

The story is 44 pages (the standard length for these "Club" comics), which as expected leads to a fairly truncated, brisk retelling of the "Awakening" five-parter; but given the short page count, the author does just about as good a job as could possibly be done. Maine sticks pretty much to Reaves's scripted dialogue, trimming in efficient fashion to meet the page count, but wisely not trying to add much. One notable addition is the opening narration, which starts off, "In Scotland, in the Fifth Century, the Roman Empire fell under the blow of barbarian invaders," as a way of setting the scene. The story then takes us directly into the 994 Viking invasion (leaving out the modern-day Elisa teaser from the show). The Viking invasion is accompanied by a slightly modified version of the familiar "superstition and the sword ruled" intro text, which includes some additional information explaining that the gargoyles predated the humans on the cliffs of Wyvern...making clear that the writer has some familiarity with the property, thankfully.

The artwork is consistently on-model and reasonably dynamic, and very much reminds me of the style that you'd see in the aforementioned '2000 A.D.' back in the day. It's quality work, but perhaps not as expressive as it could be. If there's one place where the comic really skimps, it's on action, as most of the action sequences are over VERY quickly and feel more like snapshots of the "before" and "after."

It's probably not surprising that a lot of the cuts parallel the 'Heroes Awaken' movie version. Great minds think alike, I suppose, when trying to figure out how to trim story fat (it's also possible that Maine specifically used the 'Heroes Awaken' version as his guide, although he does include some dialogue that was left out of the "movie"). There are no references to the eggs, and when Goliath punishes the Trio, they're sent to the "dungeon" as opposed to the Rookery. Other details are simplified or eliminated. Tom and Mary appear, but don't have any dialogue. Hudson has his sword all along, a departure from the TV version where he takes it off a Viking. Morgan doesn't really appear (in one panel, a cop asks Elisa what she thinks is going on, but we only see the back of his head).

One cool addition that I like a lot, taking advantage of the comic book format, is that there are time stamps in the 20th century scenes. So, the gargoyles awaken in the modern day at 19:23, the Commando attack is at 21:05, etc. The story places the Eyrie Building at 33rd St. & 5th Ave., presumably referencing the real-world location of the Empire State Building. Obviously, we now know that isn't at all accurate, but we can't hold that against Mssr. Maine back in 1996. Maine does strangely get Elisa's precinct number wrong (33rd instead of 23rd); but the artist portrays her badge number correctly, which is some pretty sweet attention to detail. Xanatos says the Cyberbiotics Tower is between Manhattan and Staten Island.

Expectedly, as in the "movie," the comic relief sections are entirely deleted: the kitchen scene, Hudson discovering TV, the Trio exploring Manhattan. The scene with Brendan & Margot and the thugs is also entirely excised, which is a big loss, as it's Goliath's first true "crimefighting" moment.

One panel I particularly like shows Elisa holding the Scarab tracker, with her face and Goliath's reflected in it. Redondo also has some good material in the climactic scene when Goliath rescues Elisa without even thinking, then has a bout of remorse over the loss of Demona.

Overall, it's a much lighter version of the true TV version, with both the writing and the art failing to live up to the extremely high bar of the exquisite source material, but still being good on their own merits as far as comic book adaptations go. If Dynamite ever decided to do another reprint book containing the Disney Adventures comics (which only amount to about 97 pages), an English translation of this comic would be a good complement to fill out the book.
Craig
posted @ Wed, Jan 1, 2025 2:24:45 pm EST from 69.118.30.106

Happy New Year! Here's to a joyous 2025!
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Jan 1, 2025 8:35:51 am EST from 68.99.93.213

Happy new year!
Karrin Blue
posted @ Wed, Jan 1, 2025 12:01:46 am EST from 68.9.88.39

Ring out, wild bells, to the wild sky,
The flying cloud, the frosty light:
The year is dying in the night;
Ring out, wild bells, and let him die.

Ring out the old, ring in the new,
Ring, happy bells, across the snow:
The year is going, let him go;
Ring out the false, ring in the true.

(from Tennyson, "In Memoriam")

Happy Hogmanay, everyone!

PHOENICIAN - That was an entertaining look at "what might have been" in "Heritage". Yes, a missed opportunity; "The Winter's Tale" had to wait until "Young Justice" to get a nod, in the form of Perdita (who got introduced in a literal "winter's tale").

MATTHEW - Thanks for the additional background information (including the original Natsilane), and the poem - and, as you mentioned earlier, it does close the cycle on a relatively upbeat note. Its timing felt particularly appropriate, since I watched "Kingdom" today, which, among other elements, included the Mutates founding a homeless shelter in the Labyrinth.

"Kingdom" was the first "home front" story for the Avalon World Tour; it's a pity it had to be shown out of order. I suspect the audience would have been delighted indeed to have gotten it just after "Heritage" and see what Hudson and the trio were doing - not to mention appearances from Xanatos, Owen, Matt, and the Mutates.

My favorite part remains Hudson and the trio taking in Cagney. I was delighted that the production team remembered Elisa's cat, and saw to it that he'd be cared for. In fact, the way he and the gargoyles take to each other (particularly Hudson, who's clearly missing Bronx), makes this one of the most heartwarming moments from a cat-lover's perspective [SPOILER] though I'll admit that the recent Winter Special could top it, by making the "save the cat" element the main part of the story [/SPOILER]. I really liked watching Cagney rub against Hudson.

And with Goliath gone, Brooklyn, as the second-in-command, has to take up the leader's role, yet is reluctant to do so for most of the episode. (I like the theory that the reason why he kept hesitating was out of fear that assuming the position might mean admitting that Goliath was gone for good, that he wouldn't be coming back.) He shows good judgment - such as that visiting Xanatos might not be a good idea - but keeps backing down, resulting in trouble. (This does seem like another of the show's recurring themes, the importance of standing up for what you know is right rather than doing nothing. We see Claw being also uncomfortable with Fang's actions, yet being too scared of him for most of the episode to do something. Fortunately, he - and Brooklyn, whom I'll get back to in a moment - end up doing the right thing. So does Vinnie in "The Journey", much later on. By contrast, Jon Canmore in "Hunter's Moon" never develops the courage to take a stand, and that will lead to disaster.)

Hudson sees it, and keeps nudging Brooklyn to do something - such as getting him to visit the Labyrinth with the mention of Maggie (brooklyn clearly knows that they'll never be a couple by now, but clearly has some feelings left). And we have the great moment near the end where Brooklyn at last orders Hudson to come along, and Hudson smiles in recognition of Brooklyn having accepted his role at last.

Xanatos's defenses aren't as efficient as usual - they wind up damaging the castle more than the gargoyles and Talon could. A rather "cringing" moment. To make up for it, Xanatos is as "Xanatosian" as ever, getting some of the best lines of the episode - he just would be sitting at his desk as the gargoyles literally drop in, welcoming them. (It struck me that, in the previous episodes, Raven also got some of the best remarks. Tricksters and entertaining lines really seem to go together.) I still think it a pity we didn't get any follow-up to Xanatos's discovery that Goliath and Elisa were missing.

The episode, after pursuing several threads in the first half (including an appearance from Matt) winds up focusing on the Labyrinth, revealing that it's become a homeless community after "The Cage", and that Fang's decided to carry out a takeover. Talon's resisting the leadership role like Brooklyn, if in a different way - he seems to have assumed the power without the responsibility (to modify a famous quote associated with another figure Greg Weisman's written about). Fortunately, he comes to understand better at the end.

Despite the seriousness of his role, Claw provides a couple of great comic relief moments. The first is when, after Fang's been trying to zap the containment unit open without success a few times, Claw holds out the key card. The second, even funnier, is when Claw hides inside his own wings from an enraged Fang. (And speaking of that containment unit, it also provided some good "voice acting" moments in the way the various Mutates - Maggie, Talon, Fang) sounded when they were trapped inside it.)

We meet Lou and Chaz as Fang's sidekicks, who end up banished from the Labyrinth. I can't help bus suspect that their joining the Quarrymen later was more to get revenge on the gargoyles for foiling Fang's coup than out of fear of them as "unnatural beings" (and ties in with the thought I'd raised in my review of "Heritage" lately that gargoyle-human problems may often result, not so much from "Humans fear what they do not understand" as "Criminals and bullies hate anyone who gets in their way").

Brooklyn (once he's assumed his leadership role) shows his ingenuity in how he gets the key card to Maggie; it's one of his great moments. Indeed, I think that Brooklyn fans must really like this episode (all the more since he, alongside the rest of the trio and Hudson, won't be showing up often for a while).

FAVORITE LINES.

HUDSON (to Cagney): You're no Bronx, but you'll have to do.


XANATOS: Don't you just hate it when guests drop by unannounced?

OWEN: Shall we test the new security system, sir?

XANATOS: Why not? A little test never hurt anyone.


XANATOS (seated at his desk as Brooklyn and Broadway crash through the ceiling): Gentlemen, what a pleasant surprise! To what do I owe the honor?


LEXINGTON: If you don't know anything, why were you shooting at us?

XANATOS: Do I really need an excuse to have a good time in my own home?


XANATOS: Satisfied?

LEXINGTON: I can't find anything in here, other than the usual shady deals.

XANATOS: A man has to make a living.


XANATOS: Talon, I promise you, I will utilize all my resources to help track down Goliath and Elisa.

TALON: We don't want any help from you.

XANATOS: I wasn't aware I needed permission.


FANG (coming to): What happened here?

{He glares at Claw, who starts pantomiming getting into a fight with someone and getting overpowered.}

LOU: Boy, are you asking the wrong guy.

{Fang glowers at Claw, who frantically pulls his wings around himself.}


HUDSON: I thought you didn't want to lead us, lad.

BROOKLYN: This has nothing to do with what I want.

{As the trio and Maggie leave the clock tower, Brooklyn turns to Hudson.}

BROOKLYN: You'd better come this time. We need all the help we can get.

HUDSON: Is that an order, then?

BROOKLYN: Yeah, I guess it is.

{Hudson smiles approvingly.}
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Dec 31, 2024 7:34:35 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

Pardon the double post but it's the last day of the month and so it's time for the last section of my monthly poem, "A Year on the Streets."

December

It’s a long trek to this place,
A place of worship that I don’t believe.
And I can’t imagine it’ll be different,
No hope I can conceive.

Tents of families fill this place,
A crowded, indoor neighborhood.
And despite the noisy, laughing kids,
I just know it can’t be good.

Then a stranger hands me a plate,
No words just smiling eyes.
So I take my seat and I take my meal,
A small banquet to my surprise.

With one bite I forget my lot,
And all worries on how I’ll survive.
And during this night, this meal, this moment,
I’m glad to be alive.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Tue, Dec 31, 2024 3:50:18 pm EST from 135.180.3.149

A couple more things and nitpicks about "Heritage."

Natsilane is also the name of a hero from Tlingit myth, a man who's betrayed by his brothers and takes revenge against them by carving a Blackfish (aka the orca) to attack their boats. Afterwards he makes the Blackfish swear never to harm another human again after that. Obviously that didn't work out in the real world.

Fun thing about Pacific Northwest art like their depictions of animals. The faces that appear on various parts of the body aren't meant to be actual faces but rather where the spirit is supposed to reside in the body of the animal.

A more culturally accurate take for the battle would have Natsilane maybe don a Transformation Mask. They're still used in ceremonies and dances to this day.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Tue, Dec 31, 2024 3:48:23 pm EST from 135.180.3.149

Happy New Year's Eve!

Throwing in one amusing thought for "Heritage":

In addition to all the inaccuracies already pointed out, these days I feel one of the biggest missed opportunities in the episode is that we could have had a commercial break of Elisa being chased by a bear, which could have been the Gargoyles Universe's own take on the infamous Shakespeare stage direction, "Exit, pursued by a bear" from the third act of The Winter's Tale:

https://www.shakespearesglobe.com/discover/blogs-and-features/2016/01/29/exit-pursued-by-a-bear/

. . . but instead, the act ends on Grandmother turning into Thunderbird.

To quote Hades from 1997's Hercules, "We were SO CLOSE!!!" XD
Phoenician
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."
posted @ Tue, Dec 31, 2024 11:12:43 am EST from 68.2.64.232

MATTHEW AND CRAIG - Thanks for your comments, and I thought that you offered some good insights on "Heritage" and where it went astray.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Dec 31, 2024 8:02:05 am EST from 68.99.93.213

Matthew the Fedora Guy > Thanks for the informative thoughts on "Heritage." Your last comment raises another inherent disadvantage that the World Tour episodes faced. In a span of 21 minutes, they had to: introduce an entirely new section of the world and its local culture; introduce an entirely new cast of heroes and villains and their motivations and conflicts; ideally also introduce some conflict for at least one of our recurring main characters; throw in some obligatory action sequences; and wrap everything up by the end. That's quite a tall order, and then with an episode like "Heritage," you throw in the fact that on top of all that, the writers are trying to address some very complex real-world social and cultural issues. There's such a thing as being overly ambitious. It's no surprise that an episode like "Heritage" ends up feeling so thinly-sketched. In fact, what is surprising is how many World Tour episodes worked as well as they did, given the storytelling challenge (albeit, the most popular ones often involved characters we'd already met, thus cutting out at least some of the "introductory" phase..."Golem" and "Cloud Fathers" spring to mind).

I remember Greg at one point on the Voices from the Eyrie podcast (I believe) lamenting that animated shows aren't granted hour-long timeslots the way live action dramas are. I recall that in the early 2000s, the first couple of seasons of Bruce Timm's Justice League series were made up of hour-long episodes (although they were technically budgeted as two-parters, so that they could be split up into half-hour episodes for syndication). I guess when you're Bruce Timm at the height of your success, you get to do that kind of thing. But I can't think of many other examples of hour-long animated drama series (even Justice League eventually switched over to half-hour episodes, with the soft reboot Justice League Unlimited).

Happy New Year's Eve to all!
Craig
posted @ Tue, Dec 31, 2024 5:05:28 am EST from 69.118.30.106

I don't recall very many strong feelings on "Heritage" the first time I saw it, nowadays it's one of my least favorites. Ever since I visited Alaska back in 2006, Raven has been a favorite figure for me, at least among the great Tricksters of the world, I even have an ornament with the depiction of Raven which I love to get out each Christmas. As such I'm not exactly a fan of the villainization of Raven here, much like fans of Anansi aren't big of his characterization in "Mark of the Panther."

Todd> You brought up a couple myths of Raven as a more benevolent figure, that's generally the case among the Tlingit. There are tales of him taking the form of an old man and dancing like a goof between warring factions, who are so amused that they immediately stop their fighting. There's another where Raven saves a group of children from a flood caused by a Frog, or how he placed the sun in the sky though it turned his beautiful white feathers black and made his lovely singing voice coarse and rough. In short, Raven is traditionally seen as a trickster but also a benevolent friend to mankind, so in order for the plot to work there has to be a lot of creative liberties.

The other big point, and this is something I'll get more into once we reach "Cloud Fathers" is the issue with native tribes and as Mel Brooks once put it, "Everything in life is location, location, location!" It's quickly forgotten about in the episode, but there's the plot point about the tribe leaving not just because the island is dying, but to look for work as well. This brings to mind real world cases of indigenous citizens who leave their reservations because of things like limited work opportunities, natural resources drying up, or simply because their home was one that was forced upon them generations ago by Manifest Destiny and all they have is less than ideal territory. The situation with Queen Florence Island is one that's pretty big here in the real world and it simply can't be magicked away.

There's also the pretty heavy-handed message of "sometimes the old ways are best." I'm not qualified to speak on that matter given that it isn't my culture but once more I think "Cloud Fathers" did a better job at addressing the past versus present culture conflict. Especially once you consider that Haida Gwaii, one of the real life inspirations for Queen Florence Island, does rely heavily on logging, fishing and tourism for their economy. It just seems like the the real world issues are more complicated than what the episode is capable of in its good vs. evil story.

And yes, you're right about Natsilane's garb looking more Great Plains. Traditional ceremonial garb for the Haida or Tlingit is quite colorful, there's plenty of dyes they use for both clothing and totems.

In all, this is one episode I wouldn't mind seeing redone.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Tue, Dec 31, 2024 2:37:13 am EST from 135.180.3.149

Looking over my review/commentary on "Heritage", I thought that the last sentence of the paragraph about Raven's fiction needed fine-tuning. I should have written it as "He'd certainly come up with the right cover story to gain Goliath's trust and understanding."
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Dec 30, 2024 8:11:15 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

MATTHEW AND CRAIG - Thanks for your further comments on "Gargoyles" and "Batman: TAS".

While most of the episodes of "Batman: TAS" (at least, the ones I saw) were set in Gotham City, I do recall a couple of "abroad" ones. One was "Avatar", set in Egypt (which was brought up in the "Voices from the Eyrie" podcast on "Grief". I also remember an episode called "The Lion and the Unicorn" where Batman went to England to rescue Alfred from some terrorists who were trying to force information about a British nuclear weapon out of Alfred (who'd been in the British Secret Service before becoming the Wayne family's butler). The part that most stands out in my memory was Alfred, resisting the attempts to work the code out of him, reciting Tennyson's "The Brook" ("I come from haunts of coot and hern/ I make a sudden sally"), to which the terrorist leader comments dryly, "And people wonder why no one takes Britain seriously any more".

Incidentally, "The Art of Amphibia" will be published early next year. I wonder if it'll include any mention of a certain "Vitruvian Man"-style sketch in the Season Two finale....

Rewatched "Heritage" today. This one, of course, doesn't rank as highly on the list of "Gargoyles" episode as "Shadows of the Past"; if anything, it has the reputation of making viewers feel less thrilled with the World Tour, and I suspect that a lot of this is due to its revolving around Natsilane, who didn't seem that exciting a figure (though he does get a couple of good moments). He comes across as one-note in constantly (if understandably) dismissing Grandmother's words about Raven and the other local legends, then accepts them and his role in a last-minute off-stage manner; not a good start for the "establishing local heroes" part of the World Tour.

The episode does have some enjoyable elements to make for this, fortunately. A few highlights include the scene where Bronx chases the bear off Elisa, then pokes his head out of the bushes looking pleased with himself (probably one of Bronx's most charming scenes in "Gargoyles"), Goliath and Elisa's embrace when they're reunited just afterwards, and finally Raven, who made an entertaining villain with some good lines (see below).

We get our first on-stage look at (apparently) gargoyles outside of Scotland and how they've got a different design, before it turns out to be all an illusion of Raven's. I've wondered recently whether the episode might have gone down better if the focus had been less on getting Natsilane to take up the hero's mantle and more on Goliath finding what appears to be another surviving gargoyle clan, raising the hopes for his species, only to find out that it was all a deception (if with the possibility that, just because there aren't any surviving gargoyles here, that doesn't mean they didn't survive elsewhere).

I'm less familiar with the legends of the Haida (or the Pacific Northwest in general) than with British legends, so I can't comment as much on how Raven and Grandmother were depicted. I do know that some of the tales about Raven present him in a much more positive light, doing things to benefit humanity like placing the sun in the sky. Presumably a case where the production team didn't get to do as much research on that subject (though at least they found out in time that totem poles aren't a gargoyle-counterpart but serve a different function), and which might have helped contribute to this being one of the less-acclaimed episodes. (Natsilane's official garb for his fight with Raven struck me as more "Great Plains", certainly.)

The skiff apparently gets smashed in the fight with the sea monster at the start, only to be intact again at the end (was its breaking another animation error?).

Bronx immediately distrusts Raven, a sign of his being a good judge of character at work again. (Though he also doesn't seem that keen on Grandmother at first.)

This time while watching it, when Raven pretended to be one of the last surviving members of a gargoyle clan, most of whose members were smashed by the local humans in their stone sleep, I noticed the parallel to the Wyvern clan (though the humans who smashed most of them in their stone sleep were the raiding Vikings rather than the residents of Castle Wyvern - more on that in a bit), and wondered how much Raven knew or suspected about Goliath. He'd certainly come up with a cover story to gain Goliath's trust and understanding.

Angela asks why the humans would be so ready to smash the gargoyles who were protecting them, and Goliath talks again about the human tendency to fear what seems strange to them, what they don't understand. While there's much truth in that, I've thought, from time to time, that it's not the whole story. A close look at a lot of the "humans massacring gargoyles" moments, such as the Wyvern Massacre, shows that the humans slaughtering the gargoyles were enemies of the humans whom the gargoyles were protecting (Hakon and his Vikings wanting to sack Castle Wyvern, Duncan and Canmore wanting to get rid of Macbeth's allies or potential allies in their feud with him, etc.), suggesting that they understood the gargoyles well enough - understood that it'd be a lot harder for them to prey upon other humans with the gargoyles around.

Raven describes Grandmother as his cousin, which makes it clear that "Oberon's Children" aren't his children in the biological sense. (Except for the Banshee, Raven and Grandmother are the only members of the Third Race whom Goliath and the others meet during their World Tour travels who are immediately identified as of the Third Race. The rest aren't revealed as Children of Oberon until we see them at the Gathering.)

One lovely touch at the end: as Grandmother restores the island, her hair turns into flowing water to refresh the trees.

FAVORITE LINES.

ELISA: First thing I do when we hit Manhattan is buy a nice fat hot dog from the guy at the corner.

{Bronx barks eagerly.}

ELISA: Okay, Bronx. Two hot dogs.


RAVEN (on the illusory "totem-pole-style" gargoyles): Once mighty warriors. Now crippled with grief.

GOLIATH: Yet they are still gargoyles.


NATSILANE: Just don't tell me you cured her with tree bark.

GRANDMOTHER: And roots.

{Natsilane responds with a look of comical disgust.}


ANGELA: If they mean you harm, why do you protect the humans?

GOLIATH: Gargoyles protect with honor, Angela. It is our heritage, regardless of how we are treated.

RAVEN: I can see you have lived this truth.


GRANDMOTHER: I have not seen gargoyles for many generations. I'm glad to see that you thrive.

GOLIATH: We live. We do not thrive.


RAVEN: Isn't it obvious by now? If the bratty chief won't battle me, the island is mine. My cousin here thought that if she became a creature of legend, Natsilane would believe in the myths and get with the program. Not a bad plan. Fortunately, you came along, so I didn't have to fight. It's so... messy.


GOLIATH: I will battle you, trickster!

RAVEN: You know my address.


NATSILANE: You're telling me I'm supposed to fight a creature of legend... with a stick.


RAVEN: What is this, Merit Badge Test Night? Oh, well, better make sure it's an uneven fight. "Totem beasts entrapped in wood/ The time has come to... do some good."


RAVEN: This place no longer amuses me.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Dec 30, 2024 7:32:00 pm EST from 68.99.93.213

Third!

And Happy New Year if I don't return until 2025!
Matt
"Human problems become gargoyle problems..."
posted @ Mon, Dec 30, 2024 11:08:26 am EST from 47.233.90.133

Second.

Matthew the Fedora Guy > Great points on how adapting a pre-existing world (especially one as extensive as the Batman universe) can be both a help and a hindrance. One of the most magical things about Gargoyles for me is how that world was built from the ground up by Greg, Frank, Michael, Brynne, Lydia, and everyone else. Truly a remarkable accomplishment, given the realities of TV production. Of course, I don't mean to detract from the work of those who wrote B:TAS. They weren't just copying prior stories, but were adding their own innovations which have subsequently become part of the comic lore (for instance, their re-interpretation of the 1960s TV villain Mr. Freeze was basically an entirely new character, and has since become one of the great, poignant characterizations in all of comic books).
Craig
posted @ Mon, Dec 30, 2024 4:36:06 am EST from 69.118.30.106

Continuing from last week, I'd like to expand on something that was brought up on the connection with Batman: TAS and Gargoyles such as the former having decades worth of inspiration to work with while the latter had to create its stories from scratch (even if it was drawing from Shakespeare and world history and mythology). One of the benefits when working on something that came from comics, especially ones with years of legacy like DC and Marvel is that a huge chunk of the work is already done, a setting, a world, and its populace have already been created. And if the previous work is done well enough, characterization has also already been established; at that point all that's needed is adapting it to whatever the medium needs. Plus, with some many years and so many ups and downs, adapting what stories that work or what characters that work. Take the best and leave the rest.

This is pretty clear with Greg's works in Spectacular Spider-Man or Young Justice, their first few episodes had much larger casts than the likes of Gargoyles or even Rain of the Ghosts. But one of the advantages for the last two was that there's a certain control the author or showrunner has with an original work rather than an adaptation. There's certain expectations when it comes to characters like Batman and Spider-Man and that comes with its own baggage. There's also the factor that these characters are part of a wider universe than Gotham City or New York, even Batman: TAS dipped its toe into non-Batman elements with episodes revolving around Zatanna and Jonah Hex.

While the World Tour Arc could've been implemented better (and everyone has their own idea how), ever since Macbeth entered the scene there was a larger world waiting at the show's doorstep and they couldn't ignore it forever. Yes, they could've done a season or two solely focused on Manhattan but I think the show would be poorer for it.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Mon, Dec 30, 2024 2:38:36 am EST from 135.180.3.149